Any thoughts on the Michael Sam Kiss on ESPN...

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Originally Posted by Original48

Agree with whoever said he wouldn't have had a camera on him if he wasn't gay.

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Is this why the camera was always focused on Marshall Henderson? ***

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Originally Posted by blacklistedbully

For those of us who are Christian, we view homosexuality as a sin. Therefore, as Christians, it is not discriminatory of us to disapprove, as we would any sin, including the numerous ones we commit ourselves. Yet is is wrong, IMO to take judgment in our own hands and punish those who are gay. Leave it to God.

I think most of us don't have a personal problem with someone being gay (assuming it's not our own family). We just have a problem with it being foisted upon us by a community and/or media eager to have it considered "normal" or "main-stream". For Christians it is neither of those. You might as well try to convince us it's also OK to have open and public cheating on your spouse. We know a lot of married folks do that, but it's still wrong according to our beliefs.

Personally, I think what gay people do is between them and God. I don't look down my nose at them, I just consider what they are doing to be a sin. But I do resent being preached to by those eager to promote homosexuality as normal. When people try to force it upon me as anything less than a sin, it is in direct conflict with my religious beliefs, therefore I am offended, just as I am by atheists intent to remove any and all reference of God from the public.

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You can think homosexuality is a sin. Such is your right. And no one likes to feel preached at, regardless of views. This is a legal matter more than a moral one. All men are created equal. Separation of Church and State. As long as we're doing those things, I'm good. It sounds like you are too.

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Originally Posted by LiterallyPolice

Wow. That was about as generic a retort as it gets.

You say it shouldn't be a big deal anymore.... Well guess what? They are still being denied the rights of straight couples. If you were in that situation, would you pipe down?

What is hard to understand about this? If you simply want the issue to go away and don't care one way or the other... You should advocate gay rights. Wanting the issue to simply "go away" with no change is saying the status quo is acceptable, which is decidedly anti-gay rights. So instead of tip-toeing around the issue, just say what you mean.

Please respond to this with more substance than the quote above.

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See post #31.

bully13 and blacklistedbully knocking it out of the park. I can't say it any better.

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Originally Posted by trob115

All excellent points and I agree. Nobody thinks they are more discriminated against more than the conservative Christian in today's United States.

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Nm

News flash folks: the reason this is being celebrated as a big deal is because of a lot of the comments being made in this thread. When the anti-gay crowd ignores it and goes about their life, it won't be a big deal anymore. Think about that next time you want to bitch about it.

And it is a pretty big deal fwiw. Just like it was a big deal when Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier and many other "firsts" in sports. Sam isn't the 1st gay player, but he's the 1st openly gay player drafted in the nfl (or any major sport) and that's a pretty big "first".

Not going to say how I feel about it necessarily but I'll say this to those complaining about the coverage and asking why they're covering it so much. And this thread alone is your answer. We have three pages going about a 7th round pick to a team I doubt has any fans in this thread. And that's because it is a story. Whether you agree w homosexuality or not as far as being okay or not, you're drawn by the story to post your feelings one way or the other. So don't bother complaining about the coverage bc it won't stop any time soon and this thread is a perfect example why. It's compelling

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Originally Posted by LiterallyPolice

You can think homosexuality is a sin. Such is your right. And no one likes to feel preached at, regardless of views. This is a legal matter more than a moral one. All men are created equal. Separation of Church and State. As long as we're doing those things, I'm good. It sounds like you are too.

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Not really a legal matter. I don't know of anyone who thinks it should be illegal, and yes, I'm aware there are states that still technically have laws on the book against homosexuality. It's far more a question of morality, with Christians, by definition, obliged to consider it immoral. We also consider adultery immoral. While we don't get automatically disgusted by a man kissing a woman, most of us would be disgusted if we knew that man was committing adultery while doing it. Homosexuality has the unfortunate feature of being completely obvious in this regard.

If we see same-sex couples engaging in this activity, it should illicit the same response we'd have if we knew a married man or woman was doing it with anyone outside their marriage, at least from a moral perspective. If someone starts trying hard to convince me that cheating on your spouse is A-OK, I'm gonna rail against that as well. If you want to cheat on your spouse, that's your business, but don't try to convince me there's nothing wrong with it.

and will not watch Sportscenter for a while either.

I'm not going to let something that is wrong be pushed in my home, in front of my kids as something that is right and "good"

That doesn't mean I wish harm on him, I hope he does well and stays injury free but it doesn't mean I'm going to turn my back on something the Bible is very clear about.

//not judging, I'm plenty messed up and without grace we would all be in mucho trouble.

///in before the lock....

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Originally Posted by blacklistedbully

For those of us who are Christian, we view homosexuality as a sin. Therefore, as Christians, it is not discriminatory of us to disapprove, as we would any sin, including the numerous ones we commit ourselves. Yet is is wrong, IMO to take judgment in our own hands and punish those who are gay. Leave it to God.

I think most of us don't have a personal problem with someone being gay (assuming it's not our own family). We just have a problem with it being foisted upon us by a community and/or media eager to have it considered "normal" or "main-stream". For Christians it is neither of those. You might as well try to convince us it's also OK to have open and public cheating on your spouse. We know a lot of married folks do that, but it's still wrong according to our beliefs.

Personally, I think what gay people do is between them and God. I don't look down my nose at them, I just consider what they are doing to be a sin. But I do resent being preached to by those eager to promote homosexuality as normal. When people try to force it upon me as anything less than a sin, it is in direct conflict with my religious beliefs, therefore I am offended, just as I am by atheists intent to remove any and all reference of God from the public.

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The problem is the sheer number of sins in the bible that Christians don't harp on all the time, yet go out of their way to point out the sinful nature of homosexuality to justify their bigoted beliefs. Do you treat divorced couples the same way? What about those that have pre-marital sex? What about adulterers? What about all the other sins in the bible that aren't consider a huge deal in modern society? It's hypocrisy to pick one sin to justify your bigoted views while ignoring others. The bible was used to justify slavery and segregation once upon a time too.

Not all christian denominations find it a sin. So saying it is against christian beliefs is false.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

The problem is the sheer number of sins in the bible that Christians don't harp on all the time, yet go out of their way to point out the sinful nature of homosexuality to justify their bigoted beliefs. Do you treat divorced couples the same way? What about those that have pre-marital sex? What about adulterers? What about all the other sins in the bible that aren't consider a huge deal in modern society? It's hypocrisy to pick one sin to justify your bigoted views while ignoring others. The bible was used to justify slavery and segregation once upon a time too.

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"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

The type of sin doesn't matter, they all send you to hell without salvation.

//don't shoot the messenger. trust me, I'd be the first person in line for hell without grace. I can still love Micheal Sam without condoning the lifestyle. that's what liberals will never understand.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

The problem is the sheer numbers of sins in the bible that Christians don't harp on all the time, yet go out of their way to point out the sinful nature of homosexuality to justify their bigoted beliefs. Do you treat divorced couples the same way? What about those that have pre-marital sex? What about adulterers? What about all the other sins in the bible that aren't consider a huge deal in modern society? It's hypocrisy to pick one sin to justify you bigoted views while ignoring others. The bible was used to justify slavery and segregation once upon a time too.

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Man, I don't know about you, but when it comes to sin, I "harp" on my own sins every Sunday at least, and a whole helluva lot more than I even think about homosexuality. As I said before, a factor in the "gay sin" thing is a certain portion of the population determined to make it "normal" or not considered a sin. It's certainly not "normal" for any Christian to decide any sin is "OK" to commit, or even worse, not really a sin.

When we see same sex couples in public or in the media doing their thing, it's like advertising the sin. It's wrong of you or anyone else to demand we accept it as normal. As I said before, I'm all on board for leaving it to God, and not allowing it to cloud my judgement any more than I would of others committing an obvious sin. Heck, if I was hiring someone right now, I'd probably hire a gay man over a known adulterer simply because the adulterer has already shown me he can't be trusted.

But ultimately, what is really being debated here isn't whether or not it's OK for him to kiss another man. Rather it's about whether it is right and reasonable to expect Christians to accept it as perfectly normal, or whether or not we have the right to be annoyed when any party attempts to "force it" into the mainstream.

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Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar

Not all christian denominations find it a sin. So saying it is against christian beliefs is false.

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I am quite certain all Christians consider homosexuality a sin. It is in the bible. That said, there are denominations who have made exceptions to rules allowing homosexuals to participate or even lead their churches.

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Originally Posted by blacklistedbully

Not really a legal matter. I don't know of anyone who thinks it should be illegal, and yes, I'm aware there are states that still technically have laws on the book against homosexuality. It's far more a question of morality, with Christians, by definition, obliged to consider it immoral. We also consider adultery immoral. While we don't get automatically disgusted by a man kissing a woman, most of us would be disgusted if we knew that man was committing adultery while doing it. Homosexual has the unfortunate feature of being completely obvious in this regard.

If we see same-sex couples engaging in this activity, it should illicit the same response we'd have if we knew a married man or woman was doing it with anyone outside their marriage, at least from a moral perspective. If someone starts trying hard to convince me that cheating on your spouse is A-OK, I'm gonna rail against that as well. If you want to cheat on your spouse, that's your business, but don't try to convince me there's nothing wrong with it.

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I was speaking more from the perspective of the homosexual community, who are fighting for legal equality. But yes, there is definitely a moral aspect to this as well. But someone getting preachy or trying to convince you of something isn't the same as someone actively working to deny you legal rights.

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Originally Posted by blacklistedbully

For those of us who are Christian, we view homosexuality as a sin. Therefore, as Christians, it is not discriminatory of us to disapprove, as we would any sin, including the numerous ones we commit ourselves. Yet is is wrong, IMO to take judgment in our own hands and punish those who are gay. Leave it to God.

I think most of us don't have a personal problem with someone being gay (assuming it's not our own family). We just have a problem with it being foisted upon us by a community and/or media eager to have it considered "normal" or "main-stream". For Christians it is neither of those. You might as well try to convince us it's also OK to have open and public cheating on your spouse. We know a lot of married folks do that, but it's still wrong according to our beliefs.

Personally, I think what gay people do is between them and God. I don't look down my nose at them, I just consider what they are doing to be a sin. But I do resent being preached to by those eager to promote homosexuality as normal. When people try to force it upon me as anything less than a sin, it is in direct conflict with my religious beliefs, therefore I am offended, just as I am by atheists intent to remove any and all reference of God from the public.

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Excellent post. I will only add I thought Jeff Fisher's comparison with a gay draftee and drafting the first African American was totally out of line. A person's skin color is something you are born with, and being gay is a choice.

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Originally Posted by LiterallyPolice

This is an honest post that makes several good points. I would just say that there are all kinds of things on TV that I think are seriously F'ed up. Stories and very graphic imagery involving gore, torture, rape etc. I watch SVU and I'm like.... man.... Who finds this enjoyable? So I guess the point is that I just change the channel and do my best to avoid things that make me cringe. I don't think it is wrong or unnatural if you like gore, etc. Many people do. I just chalk it up to folks being different.

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It's not like this was Prime-Time TV or a pay channel. I don't want my 4 and 6 year old's seeing this. Do you?

I care less if Michael Sam is Gay, Bi or likes animals.

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Originally Posted by BeardoMSU

The mythical war on Christians.

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So you think it is okay for a school to disallow a child to bring a Bible to school and privately read the Bible during "free reading period" when kids can bring a book of their choice?

So you think it is okay for a school to say that the Bible cannot be quoted in a speech when other great works of Western Civilization are not excluded?

So you think it is okay for the Air Force academy to disallow a Bible verse on a cadet's personal whiteboard space where they are given "free space" to write of their personal interests?

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Originally Posted by blacklistedbully

Man, I don't know about you, but when it comes to sin, I "harp" on my own sins every Sunday at least, and a whole helluva lot more than I even think about homosexuality. As I said before, a factor in the "gay sin" thing is a certain portion of the population determined to make it "normal" or not considered a sin. It's certainly not "normal" for any Christian to decide any sin is "OK" to commit, or even worse, not really a sin.

When we see same sex couples in public or in the media doing their thing, it's like advertising the sin. It's wrong of you or anyone else to demand we accept it as normal. As I said before, I'm all on board for leaving it to God, and not allowing it to cloud my judgement any more than I would of others committing an obvious sin. Heck, if I was hiring someone right now, I'd probably hire a gay man over a known adulterer simply because the adulterer has already shown me he can't be trusted.

But ultimately, what is really being debated here isn't whether or not it's OK for him to kiss another man. Rather it's about whether it is right and reasonable to expect Christians to accept it as perfectly normal, or whether or not we have the right to be annoyed when any party attempts to "force it" into the mainstream.

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Divorce is a sin, correct? Why aren't Christian conservatives fighting to make divorce illegal? Why aren't Christian conservatives fighting to nullify 2nd and 3rd marriages and strip those spouses of their rights? That's the hypocrisy right there. The sins of one's personal life that are being fought against by Christian conservatives are cherry picked and then the bible is used as a shield against claims of bigotry. Now this is hugely different from crimes like murder and burglary and rape, because those are sins that have a material and immediate affect on other members of society.

And I know some denominations are more modern in their social views, and that's great, but for Internet MB posting, I'm not going to list out the denominations. We all know what's being referred to here.

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Originally Posted by blacklistedbully

But ultimately, what is really being debated here isn't whether or not it's OK for him to kiss another man. Rather it's about whether it is right and reasonable to expect Christians to accept it as perfectly normal, or whether or not we have the right to be annoyed when any party attempts to "force it" into the mainstream.

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What? You think this debate is about your "right to be annoyed"? I thought we were talking about all those people in our country that don't have the right to marry who they choose.

Is this what Christians consider "persecution"? An imaginary agenda against their "right to be annoyed"?

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Originally Posted by Martianlander

Excellent post. I will only add I thought Jeff Fisher's comparison with a gay draftee and drafting the first African American was totally out of line. A person's skin color is something you are born with, and being gay is a choice.

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Face palm

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Originally Posted by Martianlander

Excellent post. I will only add I thought Jeff Fisher's comparison with a gay draftee and drafting the first African American was totally out of line. A person's skin color is something you are born with, and being gay is a choice.

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When did you choose to be straight? I know I didn't choose to like chicks, it just naturally happened.

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Originally Posted by Martianlander

Excellent post. I will only add I thought Jeff Fisher's comparison with a gay draftee and drafting the first African American was totally out of line. A person's skin color is something you are born with, and being gay is a choice.

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And que the new argument ha

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Originally Posted by M.Fillmore

So you think it is okay for a school to disallow a child to bring a Bible to school and privately read the Bible during "free reading period" when kids can bring a book of their choice?

So you think it is okay for a school to say that the Bible cannot be quoted in a speech when other great works of Western Civilization are not excluded?

So you think it is okay for the Air Force academy to disallow a Bible verse on a cadet's personal whiteboard space where they are given "free space" to write of their personal interests?

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If like to see a link to a credible news source. I see shit like this on my FB feed all the time, and 90% of the time it's fake.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

The problem is the sheer number of sins in the bible that Christians don't harp on all the time, yet go out of their way to point out the sinful nature of homosexuality to justify their bigoted beliefs. Do you treat divorced couples the same way? What about those that have pre-marital sex? What about adulterers? What about all the other sins in the bible that aren't consider a huge deal in modern society? It's hypocrisy to pick one sin to justify your bigoted views while ignoring others. The bible was used to justify slavery and segregation once upon a time too.

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Christians DO harp on those sins. That's where you go wrong. I suppose now you're going to accuse Christians of judging people who commit those sins. You'll be wrong again. Christians commit the same sins that non-Christians do. The difference is that Christians attempt to stay away from that. But we all sin, dude.

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Originally Posted by LiterallyPolice

I thought we were talking about all those people in our country that don't have the right to marry who they choose.

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Ha, ha, prepare to be destroyed. Married in the eyes of whom? The church who condemns it? Or the State? Oh, why would you want to be 'married' if it's not a religious union? Oh, I know. DIVISION OF THE ASSETS.

Money. While you and other libs are out there championing this gay agenda about poor gay people having rights, all those gay people want is the green paper.

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Originally Posted by LiterallyPolice

What? You think this debate is about your "right to be annoyed"? I thought we were talking about all those people in our country that don't have the right to marry who they choose.

Is this what Christians consider "persecution"? An imaginary agenda against their "right to be annoyed"?

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So are you okay with Polygamy?
Why can't one person be in love more than one other person?
What about a man marrying another man and another woman at the same time?
When the government got in the marriage business, it opened Pandora's Box.

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Originally Posted by Goat Holder

Christians DO harp on those sins. That's where you go wrong. I suppose now you're going to accuse Christians of judging people who commit those sins. You'll be wrong again. Christians commit the same sins that non-Christians do. The difference is that Christians attempt to stay away from that. But we all sin, dude.

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But where are the laws and campaigns that are trying to outlaw or limit the rights of the people committing these sins? I'm not saying those sins aren't preached about, I'm saying that outside of the church, Christians aren't out fighting to make divorce illegal or limit the rights of divorcees to remarry whoever they want. That's the hypocrisy. It's the selective imposing of sins on the state outside the church.

Im fine with polygamy. Why would you be against it?

I dont care how many people a man marries or how many men/women he chooses. Has nothing to do with you and doesnt effect you. As long as all parties agree, who the hell cares?

Polygomy has been around since man first walked. It is in our dna, as well as all animals.

Yall want to talk "unnatural", unnatural is marriage to one person forever. It goes against everything in our dna.

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Originally Posted by fishwater99

So are you okay with Polygamy?
Why can't one person be in love more than one other person?
What about a man marrying another man and another woman at the same time?
When the government got in the marriage business, it opened Pandora's Box.

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I'm ok with polygamy if that's your thing, so long as it doesn't lead to folks leeching off the govt by marrying lots of women and pumping out dozens of kids. And obviously there's need to be tax implications and social security and stuff that would need to be ironed out. But purely from a freedom to do as you please, I'm absolutely fine with polygamy, even if it's being married to a man and a woman.

That's about as far as the Pandora's box goes though since I think consenting adults making a choice is the barrier. (Just preemptively cutting off the "a man can marry his fish" argument here)

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Originally Posted by Goat Holder

Ha, ha, prepare to be destroyed. Married in the eyes of whom? The church who condemns it? Or the State? Oh, why would you want to be 'married' if it's not a religious union? Oh, I know. DIVISION OF THE ASSETS.

Money. While you and other libs are out there championing this gay agenda about poor gay people having rights, all those gay people want is the green paper.

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Why shouldn't they get the same tax and inheritance benefits? Why shouldn't they get visitation rights? Why shouldn't they get every marriage benefit a straight couple gets? Of course money plays, why wouldn't it?

The guy is gay..ok I get it's a big deal that he is the first openly gay draft pick..but what I didn't care for was the all the kissing and cake being shoved in the face nonsense...also Saturday holly Rowe was at a gay bar in New York..why?? Why do all of that? Some people accept it and some people don't...I don't like the fact that they were constantly bringing the guy up, when let's face it, he's not going to be a good pro..

If they could put holly Rowe at a gay bar, then why couldn't they have Erin Andrews at a strip club anticipating the selection of Johnny Manziel?? I'll tell you why, and it's probably one of the most misunderstood rules regarding television...they can't show nipples on TV...it's total bullshit. Once people realize that nipples are just part of the human anatomy, then we as human beings can finally move on

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Originally Posted by Goat Holder

Money. While you and other libs are out there championing this gay agenda about poor gay people having rights, all those gay people want is the green paper.

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You can't really believe that's the only reason gay people want the right to marry?

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Originally Posted by dawgs

If like to see a link to a credible news source. I see shit like this on my FB feed all the time, and 90% of the time it's fake.

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I'm wrapping up my lunch break and I have to get back to work so I'm not going the Google these things for you.

The first item was in the news last week. The article I read had a link to the voice mail the teacher left of the parent's phone saying the Bible is prohibited material.

The second item is a few months old. It was a regular news story.

The Air Force Academy has been in the news a lot over the issue I referenced. I have seen several new articles on this one.

These things are not "Facebook" articles. They are real issues.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

But where are the laws and campaigns that are trying to outlaw or limit the rights of the people committing these sins? I'm not saying those sins aren't preached about, I'm saying that outside of the church, Christians aren't out fighting to make divorce illegal or limit the rights of divorcees to remarry whoever they want. That's the hypocrisy. It's the selective imposing of sins on the state outside the church.

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Marriage is a religious institution, so if it involves a church, there is no 'right'. Your battle is with whether or not the STATE recognizes marriage, for division of assets, ie, can two gays go to the courthouse and get a marriage license. Christians in a church have no power over that, but they do have power over who gets married in their church, and that's the way it is. Either way, I know if I had my way divorce would be much tougher to obtain. That's the price of living in a free society.

.

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Originally Posted by Goat Holder

Ha, ha, prepare to be destroyed. Married in the eyes of whom? The church who condemns it? Or the State? Oh, why would you want to be 'married' if it's not a religious union? Oh, I know. DIVISION OF THE ASSETS.

Money. While you and other libs are out there championing this gay agenda about poor gay people having rights, all those gay people want is the green paper.

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Goat, word to the wise: writing "prepare to be destroyed" before your post does nothing but make you look like a toolbag.

But, out of courtesy, I did prepare myself for destruction... And was very disappointed when all I got was a small stream of strange, off-topic drivel.

Yes, they want to be married in the eyes of the state. One of the reasons is to be afforded the same tax/financial rights as straight couples. What is your point? Are these not worthy causes?

I've seen you make this argument elsewhere... And trust me, there is a reason it hasn't gained any traction outside of your own head(s).

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Originally Posted by LiterallyPolice

What? You think this debate is about your "right to be annoyed"? I thought we were talking about all those people in our country that don't have the right to marry who they choose.

Is this what Christians consider "persecution"? An imaginary agenda against their "right to be annoyed"?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but is not this thread about the kiss on national TV, what people thought of it, and the perception that the gay lifestyle is perhaps being inappropriately promoted by the media? When did it morph into homosexual legal rights?

Read my other post dawgs. They should. But this has NOTHING to do with Christians.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

When did you choose to be straight? I know I didn't choose to like chicks, it just naturally happened.

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So would you say it was in your DNA to be straight? If it just naturally happened then it HAS to be genetic. So if twins were born that were identical, i.e. genetically the exact same, both would have to be gay.

Problem is jarron Collins likes women while his identical twin Jason prefers men. Someone made a choice here...