I'd be damn interested to hear that theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by BulldogBear
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I'd be damn interested to hear that theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by BulldogBear
The fight at the inn is what starts his death arc, if in fact he truly died. But it wasn't immediate. The wounds he received during that fight became infected and festered. Arya contemplated killing him, but then decided against it and just left him. We'll see if they go there or alter it somewhat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabo32
As for Arya, yes, the actor is solid and can handle a more "grown up" approach to the character. But the things she'll be doing later can't exactly be done by a 12-year-old on TV. They're going to be forced to age her in the not too distant future.
The scene with The Hound was awesome. He's definitely grown on me, as he did in the books. But I'm kinda like Bulldog Bear, not sure I can choose just one favorite character. Also, anyone else think there might be something to the theory that Sam is actually Aegon Targaryen?
The actress, Maisie Williams, is 17 years old or will be in a five days. Her birth date was 15 April 1997. She'll be able to do whatever soon enough. The question might be what they are allowed to portray a young CHARACTER doing (that may have been what you meant). They already aged everyone 3 years from in the book as you know. I think it was largely for Danaerys. They couldn't have a 13 year old CHARACTER getting doggie styled by a grown man on tv I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
yep...i want to hear this as well. Im ready for howland to be introduced, for reasons i've mentioned before...details about the fight at the tower of joy and to finally learn that jon is rhaegars sonQuote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
Should we have some kind of spoiler tag on this thread? I wouldn't even know how to do such a thing. It's evolved to include way past the current tv series timeline.
King Jeffrey getting off'd is going to make the show much, much less annoying.
I knew you'd like that! But, Ramsey more than makes up for it. Joffrey was a spoiled prick, Ramsey...oh Ramsey is a true sociopath and psychopath for that matter! It's called the Purple Wedding. You know royalty and all but Joffrey also turns purple Bwahahahahahahahahahahah! Burn in all seven hells King Douche!Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
Standing Slow Clap for Joffrey's Death! Been waiting a long damn time for that little bastard to get offed.
C'mon, Bear. Why do you think Jojen is really Howland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabo32
I would have much rather seen him die by the sword, but I'll take it...Quote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishwater99
Yes, I did too, but I will say that in the book he seemed to suffer more. I think I remember that it took him 5 minutes or more to die.
I will get on that in the next day or two. Patience Iago.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
I think I need a Tshirt with Joffrey's face on it and the caption: "Hurry up! This pie is dry!"
!!!!!SPOILER ALERT - MAY CONTAIN INFO FROM BOOKS NOT SHOWN IN TV SERIES YET OR AT ALL - SPOILER ALERT!!!!!
Okay Bulldragons, put on your tinfoil hats. This is why I theorize that Howland Reed is posing as his "son."
I could probably do this better when I re-read the series to get ready for release of TWOW but here goes. Jojen is odd. It is likewise odd that we haven't seen Howland Reed at all. The country is in turmoil. As close a friend as HR was to Ned, something isn't quite what it seems. I think that Jojen is Howland Reed, not Howland Reed's son. Howland Reed knew that Bran needs to get to the three-eyed crow. He is the one who had the dream of the fall of Winterfell in the book, not Bran. How is Jojen, a 12-13 year old boy teaching Bran how to warg? Jojen himself never alludes to having any warging or actual greenseeing abilities. He just says he has greendreams. The Crannogmen are mysteroius, not a whole lot is known about them. They are known to be small and who knows how they age or how much it shows. They may even be intermingled with Children of the Forest. The area they live in was flooded by the COF in an attempt to cut off the North from the rest of Westeros during their war with the first men. They may not be wargs themselves (The COF aren't) but have a load of ancient knowledge. Meera doesn't seem to have them but then she may not be a crannogman. There is another theory that suggest R+L = J&M!!!! Twins, seperated at birth ala Luke and Leia. Sometimes you can take clues from the tv series to learn things in the books. It's a different medium so you have to present info in different ways. The producers DO know the whole story as told them by GRRM in case of his premature death after all. Meera and Jon look similar in the show. But that's neither here nor there for this theory.
Frequently, Jojen is said to seem older and wiser than a 12-13 year old. He is awfully mature and solemn in general. Every Bran chapter in which Jojen is present, we see this, especially in ACOK and ASOS, although in ADWD he's perhaps more sullen, weary, and sick. Bran notices twice that Old Nan called Jojen "Little Grandfather." This is in ACOK, Bran-4 and in ASOS, Bran-1. Bran refers to JR as "Little Grandfather" in his own thoughts as well. In ASOS, Brand -1, Bran also states that Jojen could scare almost anyone, saying how Meera wasn't scared of anyone, except Jojen. This seems a little off. A 12-13 year old (not named Joffrey Barathister) that could scare anybody? Jojen just doesn't seem like a 12-13 year old boy, not even a mature one. In ACOK, Bran-5, Theon takes Winterfell. Jojen is not afraid as a young boy should be when the "Vikings" come to raid and pillage. Instead his eyes are full of sorrow. He is not afraid, despite their situation. Even knowing this was coming as he did, I would still think a boy would feel somewhat frightened. Jojen exhibits a strange absence of anxiety/fear when meeting the direwolves for the first time. Bran observes this while seeing through Summer's eyes in ACOK, Bran-3. Even as the direwolves are growling and threatening, JR isn't afraid. Meera, the older sibling, is. Jojen once calls Bran a summer child, even though he's only 3-4 years older himself.
Let us look at Meera's constant obedience of Jojen. Meera is the older sibling, about four years IIRC, and yet Jojen's word is law to her. In ASOS, Bran-3, Bran thinks, "Jojen had his way; he always did," after arguing with Meera about having a fire at Queenscrown. In ADWD, Bran-1, Meera obeys Jojen again when she wants to go back with Coldhands to help against the men that the ravens have warned him of. He tells her no in no uncertain terms, and so she doesn't go. Jojen is something more than just Meera's younger brother. Why would she always do what Jojen tells her, unless maybe he's her father?
In ASOS, Bran-2, Meera tells Bran of the knight of the Laughing Tree at the Great Tournament at Harrenhal, where Prince Rhaegar crowns Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty. Ned was there, Howland Reed was there, and he may have been said knight if it wasn't Lyanna in disguise. That whole situation begins the road to the TOJ. Before, during, and after the telling, Jojen is genuinely surprised that Bran never heard this tale from Ned himself. He asks 3 times to clarify that Ned never told the story. Why would he feel this was such an important story for Bran to have been told before? The events in the tale occurred before Jojen would have supposedly born but it seems very important to him personally. Jojen even knows the name AND nickname of a mountain man that rode in the war with his father. Meera, Bran, and Jojen are speaking of the Houses of the Mountains. Bran mentions the Wulls in response to a question asked by Meera about a Wull riding with her father. Jojen says, "Theo Wull," and then, "Buckets, they called him." Jojen knows such specifics about a man that rode with their father during a war that occurred years before he was born? This is a small matter but Meera specifically asks about a man who rode with their father during the war. He may have done great deeds of course but that wasn't her question. Nor was it of a man who was close friends with their father, but someone who only rode with him. It just seems like an oddly specific thing for a son to know.
Jojen should be healthy, young and fit, yet the long grueling journey has the hardest physical toll on him of those in the party. This seems more consistant with a middle aged man. Who knows how much they age in appearance. He could also be using a glamour like the ones Melisandre uses. This could make him appear young. Remember they are reclusive and mysterious. Meera "carries the weapons" but that doesn't mean JR wouldn't use them. Perhaps he does not want to give away his identity by being way too skilled than an awkward preteen boy ought to be. HR/JR saw the fall of Winterfell in a greendream. His known presence would draw attention. Nobody at Winterfell at the time would likely have seen him before. And who the 17 sends their kids to do a man's job. Get them north of the wall? Really? What the heck kind of Dad is that or at least what's he doing that's so all-fired important as to have another gravely important task (to all of their survival against the real enemy) delegated to a couple of kids?
The mystery of Howland Reed's whereabouts has been right under our nose the whole time.
"He who conceals himself is revealed."
GRRM actually wrote s4e2 as he always does one per season. Here's a link to an interview regarding GRRM's commentary on the episode and Joffrey's demise. There's a historical tidbit for us also.
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/13/ge...offrey-killed/
Don't know if GRRM has ever talked about it or not, but Joffrey is loosely based on Caligula. Not very hard to see the parallels between the two. Evil psychotic bastards known for sadism who died from poisoning.
Bear, that's one hell of a theory. You've obviously put a lot of thought into it and make some compelling points. Also really like the way you're backing it up with specific evidence from the books. I think the best point you made, and something I've wondered myself, is why Howland would send his kids to take Bran north to the three-eyed raven. You also make a good point that Howland could be using a glamour to conceal his age, which I would consider more likely than decreased aging, just based on the way the world that GRRM has constructed works.
The other point you make that's compelling to me is Jojen's recounting of the Great Tournament at Harrenhal in ASoS - Bran 2. It was pretty explicitly stated by Ned in AGoT that Rhaegar choosing Lyanna over Elia at the tournament was the spark that started fire of Robert's Rebellion. Jojen did seem to be very surprised Bran hadn't heard the story before, but I took it as he & Meera had heard it from Howland so many teams he was shocked that Ned wouldn't have told Bran & his siblings. But if Ned was sworn to keep the secret of Jon's true parentage by Lyanna, then it makes sense why he'd never tell the story. It opens up the can of worms that's Robert's Rebellion and the TOJ.
I'll have to re-read this a couple more times and think about it some more, but you've laid out a pretty convincing case. Some parts of it definitely ring true, at least to me.
there are two chapters from the next book out on the World Wide Web. I read them. Wish martin would go ahead and finish. There is a whole lot shit coming down the pike.people that haven't read the Books are going to be shocked
Ok bear, like I said before man...pass whatever it is you're smoking!!! Ha..just kidding man..but damn, that's one detailed theory..but I've got a few counterpoints if you would indulge...1.) the question to why Ned never talked about Roberts rebellion to bran or his other kids: I think he did this so he could avoid any possible questions that would come up concerning Johns mother. Ned made a promise to his sister, and he is/was known as an honest man. So it's my theory that he never wanted to lie to anyone concerning who john snow belongs to. I don't remember the direct quote from the book, but recently I rewatched the series and the last time Ned sees john and john asks about his mother, Ned says you may not have my name but you have my blood. He wasn't lying, he was beating around the bush. Side note: Ned tells Jon that the next time I see you we will talk about your mother. I think Ned is waiting to convince his good buddy Robert that all targs aren't bad, bc you know Robert would kill Jon if he knew that Jon was rhaegars son.
2.) why would howland reed send his children?
Ok, so think about it..his daughter is 15 and the son is 14. Ned and Robert were 16 and lead a battle to take over a king. So I'm thinking that howland is willing to send his children at their current age to help bran find the three eyed crow
Well...I'm done...
Also bear..throw some more of your theories out every now and again...that was a damn good read
https://web.archive.org/web/20131028...nds-of-winter/
Here is sample chapter of new book
Well, episode 4.4 was certainly weird, rampant with departures from the book. I wonder where they're going with Bran, Hodor, Meera, and HOWLAND at Craster's Keep and Jon and the gang on the way.
The only *big* departure from the books is The Others turning the babies into Others. Although just because GRRM hasn't talked about it in the books doesn't mean he won't in the future or that he didn't ok the change. Honestly though, that twisted my mind. And it looks like there's a hierarchy amongst The Others. Notice the Priest who changed the baby looked different than any Other we've seen previously, including the one who took the baby and put it on the altar. I have no idea where they're going with it or when we'll get the payoff from that teaser, but I gotta a feeling it'll be epic whenever it finally happens.
I don't think the change with Bran's story is a big deal. My guess is they're going to use it to introduce Coldhands, who will rescue them from the mutineers. Then Jon & crew show up to a bunch of frosted dead guys and will be worried that Mance has his info. And of course, that will set up the big Battle at the Wall in episode 9.
WMD, you're right it may not be a huge departure about the babies. Many people, myself included, have suspected this already.
On Bran's part, that's what I mean. Kind of looking forward to see what they do. You may be right. I don't think Jon is going to meet up with Brand and crew. Something else is going to happen first.
Bear..,you think benjen...I mean coldhands is gonna show up before Jon?
I don't think Benjen is Coldhands. Coldhands has been a Walker longer than Benjen has been dead, according to the books. Unless GRRM is swerving us.
I won't lie, that end sequence twisted my mind. I always assumed the babies ended up a snack for whatever Other was preying on the area around Craster's. Simplest explanation is usually the correct one......unless it's a GRRM series.Quote:
Originally Posted by BulldogBear
Is benjen even dead?
Exactly. Another good reason I don't think he's Coldhands. The characters assume Benjen is dead, but we all know that you can't completely rely on each character's descriptions and assumptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabo32
I think Coldhands is the Night King.
Could Benjen possibly be the hooded man that recognizes Theon at Winterfell and has been murdering Frey and Bolton men? Maybe but I kind of think it's Harwin and the Brotherhood has infiltrated Winterfell.
That would be epic. I keep expecting Benjen to pop up eventually or finally get confirmation he's dead. But if it IS Benjen offing the Freys & Boltons at Winterfell, why the hell wouldn't he have returned to the Wall with everything happening there? By involving himself in the war for the Iron Throne, he's breaking his vows, a crime punishable by death. For me, Benjen's whereabouts and fate are the most unguessable mystery of the entire series to date. A Stark with a blink-and-you-miss-it appearance. Furthermore, why did Benjen take the Black in the first place? Just a whole lot of questions and nothing even resembling a hint as to any form of answer with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by BulldogBear
Because "there has always been a stark on the wall"...it's going to be interesting when GRRM throws benjen back into the story...I hope he is the hooded man...that would be awesomeQuote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
I think Benjen was helping Lyanna abscond with Rhaegar somehow. Personally I believe R&L were married with his 1st wife's consent. She had a lot of trouble with first two kids, but the dragon had to have 3 legit heads. So, I believe Jon is the legitimate son of R&L rather than bastard. Bran has a wierwood vision of how close Lyanna and Benjen were. Also, in northern weddings someone has to give away the bride. Remember Theon having to give away fake Arya? Benjen gave Lyanna to Rhaegar and went to the Wall to avoid the possible consequences or it may have been because of his terrible guilt at what happened after. I don't believe it was because he was a 3rd son. Brandon is dead, Robb is a babe and Ned, now Lord of Winterfell, has no other heir. Going to the Wall because you are a lesser son doesn't make sense in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
For fans of R+L=J here's a link to a youtube video featuring ASOIAF artwork of them and Robert. At 2:54 is the only glimpse of young Robert we get without helm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syAx4CCSiM4
There are also several other montages of artwork set to music that just get me pumped for the next book. It's interesting to use your book knowledge to try to guess who each picture is if you've never seen that particular piece of artwork before. Here's a couple that are set to songs by Loreena McKennitt with her haunting voice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjKLQmPskgA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdZwiVrd50Y (only pic I've ever seen of UnCat at 1:26)
ETA: ^Also a smokin' hot painting of Cersei at 3:45
And BOOM!!! Bear drops another one on us WMD...sounds legit though
Among the unlikelier and weirder theories I've heard Cabo is this one:
Benjen + Lyanna = Jon = instant trip to Wall for Benjen Sisterbanger
Nah...that would be way to screwed up, even for GRRM
Really dissappointed that 3rd video above is no longer available. Enjoyed watching the other two again though. I've compiled a list of the artwork in the 2nd one. It was the best one anyway of the final 2 I think. I'm not sure about all the characters and places. Where unsure I've put ???Quote:
Originally Posted by BulldogBear
If anybody can figure the questionable ones out let me know:
0:22 - Fist of the First Men
0:24 - Castle Black
0:27 - The Wall
0:32 - Benjen Stark???
0:35 - Castle Black
0:37 - Sparring in courtyard at Castle Black
0:39 - The Wall
0:41 - ????
0:45 - Winterfell
0:48 - Ned, Bran, Theon, Rob, Jon and dead direwolf
0:50 - Winterfell
0:58 - The Eyrie
1:03 - Pyke with overlay of Aeron Damphair (Greyjoy)
1:11 - ??? Honestly it looks like the Dome of the Rock LOL
1:12 - ??? Obviously a Sand Sister. I'm leaning toward Nymeria
1:15 - Tower at Oldtown (Home of deceased Gerold Hightower)
1:18 - Harrenhal
1:21 - ???
1:25 - King's Landing???
1:27 - Iron Throne
1:29 - Mance's attack on the Wall
1:31 - Jon finds Ygritte's body in aftermath of attempt on Castle Black from the South
1:32 - Ironborn raid on Tohren's Square
1:34 - Khal Drogo
1:36 - ??? I truly don't know who this is
1:38 - Gregor Clegane (The Mountain)
1:39 - Gendry
1:42 - Arya and Jaqen H'ghar
1:45 - Bolton men with Banner
1:47 - Beric Dondarrion fighting Sandor Clegane (The Hound)
1:48 - Brynden Tully (The Blackfish) ...perhaps my favorite of all these paintings
1:50 - Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger)
1:53 - Roose Bolton
1:57 - Danaerys Targaryean
1:59 - Tyrion Lannister and his mountain clansmen
2:03 - Eddard (Ned) Stark + Bran??? or Rickon???
2:06 - Ned
2:07 - Ned + Catelyn Stark
2:09 - Ned
2:11 - Ned
2:14 - Stannis Baratheon + Melisandre + Davos Seaworth???
2:16 - Stannis + ???
2:18 - Stannis + Melisandre
2:21 - Melisandre
2:23 - Brandon Stark (Bran)
2:25 - Bran + Hodor
2:29 - Bran + Summer
2:33 - Danaerys
2:35 - Danaerys
2:37 - Danaerys + Drogo
2:43 - Victarion Greyjoy???
2:47 - Theon Greyjoy
2:52 - Reek (Theon)
2:55 - Wight attacking in the night at Castle Black
2:57 - Jon Snow + Ghost
3:00 - Jon + Ghost
3:07 - Jon with scars from Orell's eagle
3:09 - Jon + Ygritte
3:11 - Ygritte
3:13 - Jon + Quoran Halfhand
3:16 - Jon + Ghost (my personal favorite of the pair)
3:18 - Rhaegar Targaryean
3:23 - Davos
3:27 - Aeron Damphair
3:29 - Aeron Damphair
3:32 - Aeron Damphair???
3:33 - Coldhands???
3:36 - Waymar Royce
3:37 - Jeor Mormont (The Old Bear)
3:38 - Maester Aemon (Targaryean)
3:39 - Samwell Tarley (Sam)
3:40-3:42 - Alliser Thorne???, Delorous Edd???, Donal Noye???, Pypar, Quoran Halfhand, ??? (all in very quick successsion)
3:43 - Sept at Baelor. Note that you can see Ned and Ser Illyn Payne
3:47-3:54 - Several versions of Oberyn Martell (The Red Viper) vs. The Mountain
3:55 - Cersei Lannister Baratheon
3:56 - Tywin Lannister
3:58 - Joffrey Baratheon (Lannister)
4:02 - Brienne of Tarth
4:05 - Jaime Lannister
4:08 - Illyn Payne
4:10 - Rorge
4:12 - Prince Rhaegar vs. Robert Baratheon
4:14 - The Hound
4:20 - Bran + Summer
4:22 - Arya
4:25 - Sansa Stark
4:27 - Sansa
4:29 - Dragonstone with Melisandre overlay
4:32 - The Field of Fire
4:39 - Beric Dondarrion
4:41 - Catelyn
4:44 - Sansa
4:45 - Sansa
4:48 - Funeral of Hoster Tully
4:52 - Catelyn
4:57 - Asha Greyjoy
4:59 - Wildfire at Blackwater Bay
5:01 - Wildfire at Blackwater Bay
5:02 - ???
5:05 - Euron Crow's Eye (Greyjoy)
5:08 - Bran + Summer
5:14 - Sansa + snow castle
5:17 - Sansa
5:19 - Ned
5:23 - Robb Stark + Grey Wind
5:26 - Jeyne Westerling Stark (Mrs. Robb)
5:29 - ???
5:32 - Brienne??? or Ser Arthur Dayne???
5:37 - Bran + Summer
5:41 - Arya
5:44 - Tyrion
5:48 - Meera Reed + Howland Reed (Jojen)
5:52 - Myrcella Baratheon + Tommen Baratheon
5:55 - Loras Tyrell
6:00 - Margaery Tyrell
6:08 - Danaerys
Here are two more good ones. The first one is the Targaryean Succession, but also includes some sisters and Blackfyres as well as Prince Baelor from the tales of Dunk and Egg and Maester Aemon. Has great music from LOTR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdWa2A4TVeY
The second is another of general ASOIAF artwork with very very few repeat paintings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psiySIy32yw
^ Love the paintings of Ser Barristan Selmy at 1:27
ETA: The references to the two videos immediately above are backwards. The first one is the montage of ASOIAF artwork. The second is the Targaryean Succession.
War of the Five Kings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgS4...D3F4C&index=15
Just saw the last episode but a bit confused. Where is Jon snow headed at the end?
There is also a plausible theory that Benjen is in Esteros and is in fact incognito as Daario Naharis. Could be one reason his hair and beard are colored. The thing to remember about the books is that often times, the POV hasn't seen certain characters before and would not know any different. It's harder to pull off in a TV show. That's why the Whitebeard/Selmy dynamic was more immediate in the show. He couldn't hang around several episodes pretending to be Whitebeard because we would recognize the actor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabo32
On that note, I am thinking this could be why we've never seen Euron Crow's Eye in the show. There are also theories that he is Daario Naharis.
Things like the above aren't so obviously plausible at first glance until one tries to wrap their mind around the timeline and realize there are a lot of holes that allow for longer periods of travel than are immediately obvious.