This is huge and real.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
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This is huge and real.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Because bball has 5 players and is easier to turn around IMO. Look, I'm not saying I've given up on Ray. But at least Cohen had a history to base things on. It's a terrible comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
I hope Ray can get it going, and I'm not ready for us to get rid of him. I just have a feeling that we aren't going to turn it around without getting a true playmaker/gamechanger type...and I don't see him on our team or in our recruiting class. Does it mean it can't happen...nope.
Hopefully it does. Too early to count Ray out...but after 3 years we should have a good idea.
What bothers the most is the bullshit on Malik Newman. I can handle people not having the foresight to understand that we will be better next year. Posters sell furniture, refinance loans, work as policemen, etc- and arent trained in team management.
But the anti-Ray bunch keeps pushing the "Ray HASSSSSSS to sign Newman to survive" mantra around to everyone. The say this, knowing all along and full well we arent going to sign Newman because we dont recruit the same way under our new regime. We have no chance at him.
Engie has a good point- what the other coaches around the league are doing currently isnt working. High-rated "athletes" from around the South arent getting it done on the basketball court these days. We'll see what Ray is made of these next 2 years. I expect us to be a solid basketball team next year. Rebuilding is done come April
I agree with this. The "Ray has to get Newman" crowd is just ridiculous. I am completely behind Ray, but I don't feel like I should be called out if I'm not overly confident that he will get us back to the tourney one day. I hope he will, but I easily see how some people don't think he will. I just wish everyone would give him another year and then start coming to conclusions....after what he took over, he deserves 3 years at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Not when you are looking at it in snapshots of the current situation. Year 2 vs year 2 is as similar as you can possibly imagine. Year 1 as well. The situations they walked into as well. A large portion of the blue hair fanbase's reaction and sabotage as well. What they had done previously as immaterial to what they were/are doing at that point in time at MSU. Saying "well Cohen had a track record" is true -- but it didn't guarantee his success at MSU any more than the last 10 "proven" midmajor and even big 6(see Andersen, Mike) basketball coaches to ultimately fail all around the SEC. And it's been about that many since one came in and had sustained, legitimate success. Fact is -- a whole people were off the Cohen bandwagon those first 2 years. And Ray is experiencing the same thing to an even greater extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
My problem in all this is with the judgement of Ray at this point. It's still too soon. We didn't know for sure if he would have success here when we hired him -- and we still don't know either way. Next year will tell us. It took Tom Crean 4 years after all. And Frank Martin is still behind Ray with a similar inherent situation.
Maybe so. We will see.Quote:
I hope Ray can get it going, and I'm not ready for us to get rid of him. I just have a feeling that we aren't going to turn it around without getting a true playmaker/gamechanger type...and I don't see him on our team or in our recruiting class. Does it mean it can't happen...nope.
Exactly right. But "having a feeling he isn't" is kinda already counting him out isn't it?Quote:
Hopefully it does. Too early to count Ray out...but after 3 years we should have a good idea.
I'm approaching it as a clean canvas. Next year is, for all intents and purposes, the "real" beginning to his career at MSU for me. He struggles and misses the NIT, I'll be ready to go another direction. Until then, it's a clean canvas -- and nothing that happened in years one or two mattered.
I was ready for Stans to go and I have doubts about Ray's ability to turn it around. Grouping the two crowds together doesn't accomplish anything and only distracts from the issue of finding a solution to better our basketball program. I hope Ray gets it right and we can compete to go .500 in the SEC next year, but if we're this late into year three without a single conference road win I think it's going to be pretty obvious to everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
To some, it's already becoming obvious. I've avoided saying this because it almost sounds "anti-discipline" and that's not my intent... but... The mitaristic management of a team that participates in a sport consumed by premadonnas is not going to work. plain and simple. You've got to walk a line to be successful in major college basketball and Ray isn't walking it right now. He's acting like he's Coach K and can just afford to toss anyone aside who crosses him. He can't. He's got to find a better way to manage the roster and right now he's failing miserably in that department... and THAT department is by get the most important one to manage.
I don't mind losing Newmann to Kentucky or UNC or some history rich tradition school . I somewhat understand why a player would pass up an opportunity to play in state for that type of exposure. But if he signs with LSU that would really just piss me off. Why go to another SEC school that we have been just as competitive as the past 20 years?
How do you know it isn't going to work? What proof do you have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
I think it's ridiculous to be passing judgement right now either way. The margin for error is simply too great. "Doubting his ability to turn it around" while still in the rebuild before he's had a legitimate chance to turn it around is fair to him/the basketball program in what way?
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Not to me.
So how many scholarship players will we have next fall? 11? Why not 13?
My point is that Ray can't take that many gambles on players that are not elligable to play.
We need a full roster, get some JUCO's or its going to be year 4 and he's fired.
Not when the previous coach has literally left you 1 player out of a possible 13 to rebuild withQuote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
Year 1- Ray loses Smith and Zedakis during the summer to drugs. It's too late then to go sign someone to replace them. Then he loses Lewis and Steele to season ending injuries. Ray also lost 2 of his own signees to ACL's. Just a cluster**** of a season.
Year 2- Lewis smokes his way off the team. Steele demands to redshirt. Ray loses 2 of his best 5 players before the season starts and it's too late to replace them.
Daniels doesnt complete his coursework in the last Summer session. The NCAA screws us on N'Doye.
You can say it doesnt much to rebuild in basketball- but when you face the shit Ray has faced- it's not that simple.
Because they are doing what is required to get his signatureQuote:
Originally Posted by HailState39110
It's going to take a spark much like Mullen in 09' for our program to change course. Otherwise, we are still going to have a bad team next year and I'm not satisfied with still being a bad team. I see no other way but to replace Ray and bring in someone who can create excitement. It can be done. I think P. Hack said it best when he stated " we are going nowhere fast"... Not what you wAnt to see from a second year coach.
Which leads me to my next question, why aren't we doing everything we can to get his signature? I've said this before . College basketball is the dirtiest of them all. If our head coach and administration doesn't want to play 'the game' let's move down to Division 3 or NAIA and start playing Delta State or Belhaven because that's the type of talent we will be bringing in . NEWSFLASH: WE PLAY MAJOR COLLEGE BASKETBALL, START ACTING LIKE ITQuote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Cohen went 6-24 in the SEC baseball in his 2nd season. We were "going nowhere fast" then also.Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyGolfer
Engie and I make the comparision because both programs were in need of much bigger rebuilds than the fans realized. And it took longer than we hoped. People get impatient- it's human nature.
Cohen was successful in his. We wont know if Ray will be until next season. LET IT PLAY OUT
several reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
1) cohen was a proven commodity, whereas ray is absolutely not
2) it's much easier to improve quickly in basketball than baseball (or football) because 1 player can make a huge difference. if we could stick newman (or pick another stud currently playing MBB) on our current roster and let these guys play a supporting role to a superstar, we'd be a NIT team minimum. in baseball, even 1 superstar hitter only comes to bat every 9th batter or only pitches every 5th game.
3) ray's recruiting isn't really hinting at a bright future. the fact that we aren't even in the newman race is very very telling (not saying he has to sign him, but we should at minimum be in the discussion and we really aren't). now maybe some of this isn't ray's fault and SS has him on a leash to limit playing the AAU game, but if we aren't playing the AAU game, then we'll never be worth a shit in basketball again.
i said last year that i don't think coach K or anyone else in the world of MBB would have finished with more than 1-2 Ws more than ray did with that squad. ray did a great job maximizing results. HOWEVER, i believe coach K and other elite coaches would have us improved in year 2. sure we've had some bad breaks, but the core of our young guys returned, we have more scholarship depth than last year, AND our schedule is much easier (at least the non-conference portion). the chance was there to make whatever that tourney below the NIT is called, and THIS YEAR i think a better coach would have gotten us there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
So, how do you explain Frank Martin?Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Response to #1- that "proven commodity" was catching a whole lotta shit at the end of Year 2. There were alot of people losing faith in that "proven commodity" and calling for his head. Short memories around here.
Response to #2- it is unless you have had to make a complete roster overhaul like we have. And Ray has only had 1 full recruiting cycle to get players on the court. The rest were throw-ins after he was hired in April, 2012.
Response to #3- the fact we are not in the running for Newman is because of the direction our AD wants the program to go in. It is no reflection on Ray at all. I'm not saying we'll be successful this way or not- but we are at least "taking a break from the drama" associated with the way or former regime recruited. And it's also why you will see Ray get at least 4 years.
And that guaranteed us success when we were 6-24 in the SEC?Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
This is a common misnomer based on an outright lie.Quote:
2) it's much easier to improve quickly in basketball than baseball (or football) because 1 player can make a huge difference. if we could stick newman (or pick another stud currently playing MBB) on our current roster and let these guys play a supporting role to a superstar, we'd be a NIT team minimum. in baseball, even 1 superstar hitter only comes to bat every 9th batter or only pitches every 5th game.
- Why isn't LSU winning big? They signed a 5* SF, a 4* PF, and a 4* PG last year among 6 total signees. Why aren't they lighting the woods on fire? Are we going to pretend Jones took over a worse team there than Ray did at MSU? Probably not, huh?
- Why isn't Arkansas winning big? They signed a 5* PF and high 4* C last year. What gives?
- Why isn't Bama winning big? They signed a high 4* C and high 4* PF last year. What's up with it?
- Why isn't Tennessee winning big? They signed a 5* SG and had a highly-sought transfer from Memphis to go along with all the talent already there. What's their problem?
Do you need me to keep going?
And you base all this on an outright lie.Quote:
3) ray's recruiting isn't really hinting at a bright future. the fact that we aren't even in the newman race is very very telling (not saying he has to sign him, but we should at minimum be in the discussion and we really aren't). now maybe some of this isn't ray's fault and SS has him on a leash to limit playing the AAU game, but if we aren't playing the AAU game, then we'll never be worth a shit in basketball again.
i'd give frank martin an extra year or 2 over an unknown commodity like rick ray to right the ship since he's done it elsewhere. that said, it doesn't mean a guy with previous success will be successful 100% of the time in a new job, but he's earned a bit more rope to hang himself with. that's my only point with regards to this ray/cohen comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
1) i said that's why people were willing to i've cohen more rope, not that people were content. sure some people were already fed up, but most were willing to wait and see another year or 2. i never once said it guaranteed cohen would turn things around, just that if he's done it before elsewhere, people will put more faith in him to turn it around here even after a slow start.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
2) lsu is 16-10 and playing for a NIT bid. arkansas is 18-9 and playing for a NIT bid. bama's coach is a dead man walking and came into the season on the hot seat. that's been known for awhile. he's lost the team. tennessee is 16-11 and playing for a NIT bid. it's also worth noting the SoS here. lsu is 66, arkansas is 79, bama is 3, and tennessee is 12. our SoS is 171. the lowest in the conference by nearly 50 spots. i also never said we'd be setting the world on fire with 1 superstar, i said with 1 superstar and our current players in supporting roles instead of leading roles would make us an NIT team. we'd probably not be that far off from lsu, arkansas, and tennessee, albeit with a much worse schedule so maybe a few more Ws. the fact that you try to use arkansas, tennessee, and lsu to disprove my comment is ****ing laughable really since those are essentially the teams i said we could be on par with with a superstar talent to center our current roster around. sure you aren't guaranteed success, and that's why the coach gets fired, like what's gonna happen in bama in a couple of weeks.
3) how is that a lie? coach34 says the admin is preventing ray from recruiting the AAU circuit like a major conference program should. if the admin is pulling that on ray, then that's too bad for him. he needs to get in there and tell them he's going to start hitting the AAU circuit like his competitors, because if he doesn't he's gonna get his ass fired anyway. if strickland fires him on the spot, then so be it, he was already destined to get fired anyway by signing kids away from usm and unc-wilmington.
For me personally I give Ray till the first game of next season to have a roster with 13 scholarship players. That's my due date. He will have had 31 months to complete that task. Bear, Moore and Staley don't count. No excuses. Get it done. Start the season with 13 and I'll then judge Ray on his team's performance and his coaching in year 3 to see if I'd extend him for year 4. Ray wants to play hard-nosed up-tempo basketball yet continues to try and do that with less players than teams that just want to play normal tempo normal toughness whatever basketball. We fired Rick Stansbury to get a better coach. Rick Stansbury always had more players than Rick Ray. Think about that for a second. Rick Ray's whole philosophy on basketball is to play tough, disciplined, creating steals, up-tempo basketball yet the coach that had zero discipline, zero toughness, zero strength & conditioning ALWAYS HAD MORE PLAYERS on his roster. FILL OUT THE ROSTER Rick Ray because until you do that I just think you have no clue what you're doing. I'm not asking something difficult or impossible to achieve. There's like 320 basketball teams and about 319 of them have no problems filling out the alloted 13 scholarships. Get that accomplished Ray and I grant you another season to prove your worth. As of right now he only needs to add 1 player to get there but if he's worried about a player or two not making it to next season he best cut them and get replacements now. May I suggest some shooters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
I didn't say he couldnt recruit AAU....I just said he was brought in to recruit differently
let's not get into a semantics argument. if he was brought in to recruit differently, then that means it's at least implied that strickland doesn't want him getting involved in the big AAU battles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
we have one of the top couple juniors in the country 2 hours from campus, in state, son of a former player at msu, and we can't even get in the discussion because "we are recruiting differently"??? we literally could not be in better potential shape to land arguably the best player in the country and we are going to **** it up because "we are recruiting differently"? that's the most idiotic recruiting philosophy i've ever heard. not every 5* is a sidney-like cancer.
Preaching g to the choir- I'd have a posse of former players and any booster I cod find to make it happen
I think Coach34 has all but spelled it out for you...Quote:
Originally Posted by HailState39110
Comparing a State grad who has been a head coach elsewhere and been successful as a player at State and a coach in the SEC is a tad bit different than an out of state guy with no relationship to the sec or State being given extra time to rebuild. not to mention rebuilding in basketball is BY FAR the easiest sport to rebuild in. Kentucky does it every single year but we need 3-4 years. Bullshit. If you're not on your way to winning by year 3, it's not happening. And we are not on our way to winning in year three.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
It's take longer when you have to rebuild the whole roster. Comparing us to Kentucky is stupid- they are Elite and recruit nationwide. Kentucky has 4-star players walk-on just to be part of their program
Hell, even Indiana had to take 3 years to rebuild when they went on probation- and they are Indiana
We'll see what Year 3 has in store this November
A man gotta do what he gotta do..
Probation cost Indiana. We aren't caparable to UK, but Ray isn't comparable to Cohen either.
he's got to build a roster and he's in a great state to do it with the Jucos.
Billy Donovan went 14-15(6-10) in year 2 at Florida in a MUCH more talent-rich state than Mississippi... Did that make him an imminent failure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
I'm not saying Rick Ray is Billy Donovan -- and I didn't say he was John Cohen either -- just that it's ridiculous to define Ray on what's happened so far.
This just gets lost on so many people. And Hell, Hack has half a brain and he is still missing it. All we can do is wait for November and all the C34 threads making fun of all the people that raised so much Hell. Then they get mad at me for patting myself on the back when it comes to fruition. Lather, rinse, repeatQuote:
Originally Posted by engie
I actually have a big ol' full brain and I did see it... until I saw his team quit on him. that concerns me. if his guys either 1) quit the program and leave or 2) quit on the court, we will not win under him. Right now I've seen a lot of both. He can be Bobby Knight as a floor coach, but if he can't build and manage a roster he's screwed. When I saw the guys on his roster quit the 2nd half of this season, it changed my opinion on the matter.
Another thing that gets me is that y'all blamed Rick for the BS in the stands, the weed smoking, etc... but Ray isn't responsible for that now. BS. they were and are both responsible for it. I bitched about it with Stans and I'm going to bitch about it with Ray. The only difference is that we're bleeding players now.
Also, basketball was my sport. I know the game better than I know any other. I understand X's and O's and floor coaching and game management. It was so piss poor under Stans that some people are just happy to see competence. I get that. But competence doesn't mean "greatness." Our bar has been set extremely low on expectations for what constitutes a "great floor coach." it's a little absurd IMO. Ray is an average floor coach based on what I've seen and I'm not sure he can identify and recruit talent.
your complaints about stans were legit coach. you did not have any sayso as to who would be replacing him. you and all of us are right to give the one chosen a right to right the ship. the question at this point as to whether or not the selection process went through the best channels. did they? at this point it is legit as to whether that process was done in the matter it should have been done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
things suck worse than we were expecting at this point and that is worth debate..
But as long as we are honest about WHY they are worse I'm ok with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bully13
Nobody expected Smith and Zedakis to smoke their way out of college basketball
Nobody expected Wendell Lewis to smoke his way out of college basketball as a 5th yr Sr....i mean wtf'ing ****????
Nobody expected our SR guard to refuse to play this year- after recruiting season was over mind you- and cripple this team and program even further
Now Ray gets a little blame for Daniels not getting eligible for this year...no doubt, but Ray is at the NCAA's mercy on N'Doye. The thing is, as much as it sucks now- I think we will be glad in the long run we get Daniels for 2015 and 2016.
I respect you alot as a poster Hack, but you completely and totally lost me on this to a greater extent than anything you've ever posted before...Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
So, we are giving Ray a "pass" for discipline problems? What discipline problems? When did the players fight in the stands under him? When was there rampant drug abuse that went unpunished under him? So, you are mad at him for his lack of accountability -- while also being mad at him because we are cutting lose unaccountable players that are failing drug tests that then hurts our team? Which is it? Seems an awful lot like that statement is trying to have the cake and eat it too. I've seen NOTHING to imply the inmates are running the asylum under Ray.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
Good job for keeping an open mind. You are correct in seeing that Ray is not a x and o genius. In fact he is lost. Is it not pretty clear He can't recruit. The average players he recruits then in turn can't get qualified . His first recruit was a felon.
He was reputed to have this awesome pressure defense with all this hustle, but instead we have smurf guards who can't stop dribble penetration or stop a jump shot. We have no one that can defend the post, thus an endless Stream of lay ups and dunks. Then this brilliant x and o coach doesn't have enough basketball IQ to foul at the end of the Ark. Game. They were shooting 50% from the free throw line.
I watched a state team play pretty damn hard against arkansas man and would not ever say they quit on ray. To be honest Ive only seen one game where that argument is even relevant. Im at the damn games where are you? And if your there what others games have they quit besides that one blowout where everyone said the team quit? I see a competitive team thats just outmannedQuote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
good postQuote:
Originally Posted by engie
Hack has become a friend of mine- so let me take a stab at this
Hack loves basketball- its his fav sport
Hack hates losing
Hack is human, so as with any human, patience is not always at the forefront
Hack is going to be pissed at me come next January if Ray delivers like I think he can- cause I rub salt like no other