Our problem is really that we hired Leach

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

One problem with air raid is TOP. You think our D was tired last night. Our D got better once air raid was out of our system.

We needed to run the ball, run clock and give our D a breather. It worked until we kept forcing the long pass.

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I disagree here. There were no TOP issues in a Leach offense. Many people think so because it?s a lot of passing, but the stats say differently. Leach passed a lot, but we did not run tempo or hurry-up. Leach would take most of the play clock to get off the next play. Also, so many of his passes were to running backs for just a few yards. We weren?t going on these 80 yard touchdown drives in just 5 plays while running the hurry-up. Instead, we would have a 80 yard drive with 13 plays (11 passes and 2 runs) that ate up clock.

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Originally Posted by smootness

Shoot, his defenses were often better than his offenses here, not sure what you are talking about.

Hiring Leach was a great move, this is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

No. The problem is he passed away and we hired Arnett.

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Originally Posted by maroonmania

Biggest issue was how we got left at the starting gate by the rest of the SEC with NIL and a coach bought into NIL. That's how OM got the separation from us we are experiencing today. I put most of that blame on Cohen because he didn't have a clue how to market and fund raise and didn't put any emphasis on NIL itself or a coach's ability to use NIL when hiring a coach. Thankful Selmon has helped us dig out of a massive NIL and fundraising hole.

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These are all correct. We won 9 games just three years ago. Let ML rest in peace.

It was a bunch of things all at once.

1. Hiring Leach was always going to take us down the Air Raid path to where it would take a couple of seasons to get the roster back to SEC standards. It's a credit to Mike we were winning with G5 guys, because we were. Rogers was a G5 QB that Leach made into a solid SEC starter.

2. Failure to embrace NIL. This starts at the top with Cohen wanting NIL to only go towards baseball because of 11.7 and that was his sport. He poisoned the well with Leach too and made Leach think he didn't need it so we didn't sell it to portal guys. By the time Cohen left and Leach realized Cohen had been lying to him, we were 16-24 months behind everyone else.

3. Hiring Arnett. This was just a killer. I understand at the time that it seemed like the only option but we should've just kept the interim tag on him and then reevaluated once the bowl game was over.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

One problem with air raid is TOP. You think our D was tired last night. Our D got better once air raid was out of our system.

We needed to run the ball, run clock and give our D a breather. It worked until we kept forcing the long pass.

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The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

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Glad you posted it. i wanted to but thought surely the other poster looks this up before just throwing it out there the air raid kept the defense on the field.

leach being here is currently the least of our issues. help lebby get more good players. hell, we are 5 or 6 guys away from what would be a 8 win season

You sure? might have been hiring Charlie Shira

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

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Yep. The MSU version of the air raid ate the clock. The passes were high percentage throws. And they were short (often to a RB). And we didn't use tempo or hurry-up. If you go 80 yards with 13 straight running plays off tackle, people think you ate the clock. But if you use 13 completed passing plays to the running backs to go 80 yards then people think your time of possession was short because they were passes. But the drive took the same amount of time of possession.

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Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg

Incorrect. Arnett inherited a roster devoid of any talent. That's on Leach. Doesn't mean Arnett was any good, but Nick Saban wouldn't have won more than 4 games with that roster. That is Leach's entire history: Recruit guys for his very specific, and by that time outdated, system that's unfit for anything else.

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Leach would have won 9'games with that roster.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

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People struggle to understand this. Leach ate the clock up!!

this^

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Originally Posted by DownwardDawg

Leach would have won 9'games with that roster.

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But that's the problem. Because while you might be correct and Leach could've won 9 games with that roster, ONLY MIKE LEACH could've won 9 games with that roster. Anyone else calling the plays and our ceiling is 5-6. It's a credit to Mike that he was able to take guys that are fringe P4 guys and make them contributors for SEC teams.

Should have known we were in trouble, when he let loose with the F bomb while being interviewed by a female reporter on the field in post game interview.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

But that's the problem. Because while you might be correct and Leach could've won 9 games with that roster, ONLY MIKE LEACH could've won 9 games with that roster. Anyone else calling the plays and our ceiling is 5-6. It's a credit to Mike that he was able to take guys that are fringe P4 guys and make them contributors for SEC teams.

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Exactly

and i didn't mean this as a knock on Leach. Just the aftermath of Leach is difficult.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

But that's the problem. Because while you might be correct and Leach could've won 9 games with that roster, ONLY MIKE LEACH could've won 9 games with that roster. Anyone else calling the plays and our ceiling is 5-6. It's a credit to Mike that he was able to take guys that are fringe P4 guys and make them contributors for SEC teams.

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I agree 100%. But no one expected him to die. We would not have been in near as bad shape if he would have stayed until he retired. We would at least have top QB's and receivers and hopefully a much better plan as to whom would replace him.
We just fell into a worse case scenario.

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Originally Posted by DownwardDawg

I agree 100%. But no one expected him to die. We would not have been in near as bad shape if he would have stayed until he retired. We would at least have top QB's and receivers and hopefully a much better plan as to whom would replace him.
We just fell into a worse case scenario.

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Sawyer Robinson running Mike Leach?s offense giving me a semi chub rn

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

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The numbers are way skewed. Most of our points, yards and TOP happened in garbage time. Just watch the games. Remember Ark, UK, etc. Yeah we had a few good games Aub and OM two that come to mind in 3 years but that ain't much.

But these threads need to stop. Let CML RIP and wish everyone would quit bringing up. We are two HC removed. People act like we won the SEC with air raid. Let it go.

Lets start where we are. The air raid split the fanbase in a horrible way.

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Originally Posted by cheewgumm

Exactly

and i didn't mean this as a knock on Leach. Just the aftermath of Leach is difficult.

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Yep and most knew we were going to be hit twice with the change - on the way in and on the way out. Just really sucks and the wrong time to do that kind of thing and we paying for it now.

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Originally Posted by DownwardDawg

Leach would have won 9'games with that roster.

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Easy to say that when it didn't happen.

And Mullen would have won a NC in 18 too.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

The numbers are way skewed. Most of our points, yards and TOP happened in garbage time. Just watch the games. Remember Ark, UK, etc. Yeah we had a few good games Aub and OM two that come to mind in 3 years but that ain't much.

But these threads need to stop. Let CML RIP and wish everyone would quit bringing up. We are two HC removed. People act like we won the SEC with air raid. Let it go.

Lets start where we are. The air raid split the fanbase in a horrible way.

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I learned alot about our some of our fanbase, and some of the football influences at that time, and how it was handled afterward. Winning with a future college football hall of fame coach, was not enough, unless it was their way.

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Originally Posted by Santiago

I learned alot about our some of our fanbase, and some of the football influences at that time, and how it was handled afterward. Winning with a future college football hall of fame coach, was not enough, unless it was their way.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Easy to say that when it didn't happen.

And Mullen would have won a NC in 18 too.

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should have.....but he would have frozen against Bama IMO......

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Easy to say that when it didn't happen.

And Mullen would have won a NC in 18 too.

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It's real easy. He won 9 the prior year. Would have had a better team that next year and then Sawyer Robinson would have been hell running Leach's offense. It would be us everyone would be talking about making playoffs instead of ole miss.

Mullen would have went 11-1 in 2018 and made the playoffs. No doubt in my mind. He would have lost to Bama, but no telling what would have happened in the playoffs.


But here we are today..........

Leading up to the EB, maybe even weeks before, there were rumors swirling that Mike was retiring at seasons end.

Obv that didn't happen, tragically, but I do wonder how things would've gone had it shaked out that way....

Who would we've hired? How different would things be? Or would it be pretty similar?

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Originally Posted by DownwardDawg

It's real easy. He won 9 the prior year. Would have had a better team that next year and then Sawyer Robinson would have been hell running Leach's offense. It would be us everyone would be talking about making playoffs instead of ole miss.

Mullen would have went 11-1 in 2018 and made the playoffs. No doubt in my mind. He would have lost to Bama, but no telling what would have happened in the playoffs.


But here we are today..........

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Well the problem with real easy is the logic. First Leach won 8 games. So take that logic, everytime MSU won 8 games the year prior, means the next year we compete for a championship? And that has happened maybe never in MSU history? What facts says we would have had a better team? 2001 we returned the entire offense and was picked to win the SECW but finished last.

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Originally Posted by BeardoMSU

Leading up to the EB, maybe even weeks before, there were rumors swirling that Mike was retiring at seasons end.

Obv that didn't happen, tragically, but I do wonder how things would've gone had it shaked out that way....

Who would we've hired? How different would things be? Or would it be pretty similar?

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Well, the biggest thing is we would have had an athletic director who unless it was a complete moron of an AD there is no way in hell they hire Arnett.

Had Leach survived I don't know how long he would have coached but without an AD in place and a senior laden team and a favorable schedule in 2023 I'm 99% sure we would have asked him to return coming off of a 9 win season.

Honestly, if we hire Selmon I think there I think there is a good chance we still have Lebby as our coach eventually. Who knows? Maybe Lebby starts out at Central Florida and we hire him from them.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Well the problem with real easy is the logic. First Leach won 8 games. So take that logic, everytime MSU won 8 games the year prior, means the next year we compete for a championship? And that has happened maybe never in MSU history? What facts says we would have had a better team? 2001 we returned the entire offense and was picked to win the SECW but finished last.

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Bill Connelly has a formula that he uses to predict team win totals. Returning production is a major part of that and is considered to be a key factor in success. Which means 2001- and if I remember correctly we lost a TON off of our defense from 2000- is a an outlier although I have a feeling that if I did a deep dive it would show that we didn't return as much as you remember.

So, yes it is pretty logical to assume that if we returned most of our players, had an easier schedule and returned the same coach which would have been the case had Leach not passed away- that we would have had a year as good or better in 2023.

The truth is that it's a combination of Leach's bad recruiting, Leach's passing, and then hiring Arnett.

How much you want to weigh each of those is up for debate, but it's not a single factor that caused all of it. It's the culmination of those 3 things plus Cohen's ineptitude when it came to NIL that set us behind from the start.