That is almost certainly not an indication that our coach is still letting things slide; in fact, it's probably the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
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That is almost certainly not an indication that our coach is still letting things slide; in fact, it's probably the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
Ahh yes, the multiple free pass guys are back. If this sport were football or a sport the majority of our fans cared about, the Ray experiment would not have been allowed to happen. I just don't get our fans. We have never been this bad since some of you were born and you are laying blame all on Stans for this. Heck, players Stans recruited are the only ones keeping this team from being 0fers and a complete meltdown of a program. We haven't been this bad since the Bob Boyd days in the early 80s.
Are you kidding me? "If basketball was a sport that the majority of our fans cared about"? Yeah -- we care so little that there are what? 10 threads? on the front page of this website about it. Everything you say after this is completely impossible to be taken seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketingBully01
So -- basically -- you want to credit Stansbury for the 3 signees that STUCK WITH RAY when they ALL had other options and could have walked(one DID walk) -- but the tattered shambles of the program that Ray took over were of NO FAULT to the Recruiter? Yeah -- that's a totally logical approach. We got it**
If only we had a fanbase that had taken baseball seriously in 2010, maybe we wouldn't have hired this Cohen idiot -- who ran off all our best playerz and is running a total dumpster fire of a program!!11!1 He's given us the worst 2 years in ANYONE'S lifetimes for MSU baseball!!1!1 Our fans SUCK -- Dudy Noble is a graveyard and will NevAr be the same!!1!1
That's what happens when people jump to conclusions early in a rebuild when a new coach inherits a total dumpster fire. Would you like me to start linking the HUNDREDS of threads on the old yuku SPS giving the blueprint of the fanbase mindset at this exact same point during the baseball rebuild? Because it was identical to this. Yet we never learn from it as a group -- and the same damn thing will happen the next time we let a coach stay 3-5 years too long and drive a program totally into the ground before it gets turned over to a new guy. Hell, I can link one from last year where we had a bunch of our fans saying "8k or less -- our fans don't show up anymore" for SBW that I totally lost my mind in.
Gotta love your fire here but you are so great at pointing out the Cohen analogy. This would have been like we had hired Raffo. The Raffo/Ray anology works better but since Byrne made a great hire in baseball we can't really compare it because Byrne made the best decision for MSU IMO and it's playing out. Stricklin did not and that will play out as well.
Hopefully one day we'll have a player talented enough to have an attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
I blame Stans and Scott. It's not like our AD didn't know what was going on during Stans tenure.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketingBully01
Then Scott made the Ray hire. He is more to blame than anyone for our shitty basketball team.
No -- hiring Raffo would have been like hiring Cunningham. Looks like Stricklin WENT OUT ON A LIMB AND DID WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS BEST FOR THE PROGRAM. Whether it was or not -- we will see in time. But to liken hiring Ray to hiring Raffo is a TERRIBLE analogy. They are NOTHING alike.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketingBully01
You are really trying hard to misunderstand the analogy when it is being spelled out for you clearly.
Stricklin was promoted to AD in May of 2010. Stans 'resigned' in March of 2012. So yes, he knew what was going on, and within 2 years he fired him.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishwater99
It's not as though he could have made a move right when he was promoted; we were coming off our first somewhat down year after 2 straight NCAA Tourney appearances.
Seems to me like Stricklin realized a problem and took care of it. How is he complicit in the issues that happened under Stans' watch?
Stans had 4 tourney wins in 14 years. He didn't make the tournament in 2011-12 after starting 12-2 with one of our best lineups ever. Whether Ray is the right guy or not, I'm glad we have an AD who had the balls to get rid of Stans.
It is good to have an AD with "balls," but I liked having a competitive basketball team. We may have one again in the future. We may not. But we have an AD with "balls," so I suppose we have to be grateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by C222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
here is why I am defending Rick Stansbury
Taking over the helm as the Bulldogs head coach in 1998, Stansbury led his team to post-season tournament play eleven times in fourteen seasons (six NCAA and five NIT tournaments), with five consecutive post-season tournament appearances, the first MSU basketball coach in history to accomplish this feat. His 2001-02 MSU team compiled the most wins in a single season in school history (27). Also achieved the highest National Ranking in school history 2003-04, #2 in the country (finished 26-4). Stansbury also owns MSU's record for consecutive 20-win seasons with four from 2001?05 and again from 2006-10.[5]
Stansbury won more SEC Championships in the last 10 years than any other SEC program except Kentucky 12. Mississippi State 8. (Florida 6) Western Conference Champion: 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2010. SEC Tournament Champion: 2002, 2009. Overall SEC Champion: 2004. Under the leadership of Stansbury, MSU's teams were always a threat in the SEC Tournament, reaching the finals of the tournament four times, winning twice. His SEC Tournament record is 16-12. [6]
From his days as an MSU assistant until 2012, Stansbury has been a part of over 15 postseason tournament appearances. Prior to his arrival at Mississippi State, MSU had two post-seasons in 27 years (both NIT). He is also 21-8 vs conference in-state rival, the Ole Miss Rebels.
Check out his last 2 seasons. At what point do you make a change? Should we have just let it continue going down hill?Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
SEC West Championships are about as useful as tits on a boar.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
I have tits, Greg --- Do you think you could milk me?Quote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
And I love how they include NIT appearances as some kind of plus to your post season resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
That was easy to believe when we were in the running for bigger things that we seldom or never reached.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
Would you now be in favor of removing the banners that acknowledge those "worthless" championships? We've learned one thing from this disaster: The view from the top beats the view from the bottom every damn time.
The only thing we've learned during this rebuild is that our fans never learn anything -- even when specific instances are cited.Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkernhelldawg
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
We've also learned who doesn't think their shit stinks.
Everyone already knows all this. I certainly do, and it is the reason I was such a big Stans supporter. As long as the guy was winning like he was, people were crazy to overly criticize him for certain things.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
However, the success stopped coming like it had been. Any time a coach has to point back 8+ years in their defense, you know things aren't going so well. Stans had a very good run, and I hope he is ultimately remembered fondly. The stretch from 02-04 was about as good as we've ever been, and he had some other good runs as well.
The thing is, everyone who supported the move to oust him knew all this and wanted to get back at least to where we were. They didn't believe it was going to happen again under Stans, and by the end I was persuaded to agree with them.
Past history is great, but it means nothing for tomorrow. We will always have the 2004 SEC championship, whether Stans is here or not. The question is, what move best ensures we give ourselves a chance at doing that again? Saying, 'we won a championship in 2004' is great, but that doesn't mean the coach who did it is automatically going to do it again at some point.
Who?Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDawg
these are the Same Guys that think a 6-6 season is really great. Why can Mullen be judged different than Stans? Rick Stansbury accomplished so much more for a longer period of time than any Coach in MSU history. I agree with a lot that that Coach 34 and Engie post, but I can't wrap my mind around their hate for RS. They Love a can't beat a top 20 Mullen but hate Stans. go figure. Here is what I have learned during this rebuild--Rick Ray won't cut the mustard.
SEC football = Big East basketballQuote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
SEC basketball = Conference USA football
In Mullen's 5 seasons- we have played 2 top 5 schedules and have one that is ranked very high the other seasons
Stands routinely had much, much easier schedules. His last 2 were 88th and 87th in the country according to statsheet.com
1. football does not equal basketball, they are completely different animalsQuote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
2. football in the SECW certainly does not equal basketball in the SECW (or SEC in general)
3. 15 years >>>>>>> 5 years
4. taking over from Williams a couple years removed from a Final Four >>>>>> taking over from Croom, who inherited a mess from the end of Jackie's regime.
5. Rick Ray not doing well does not mean Stansbury should have been kept - those things are not one and the same, they are separate
6. maybe C34 hates Stansbury, but most of us supported him over the years and appreciate very much the things he did for our program. However, by the time it was all said and done, we recognized that it was time to move in a new direction. One does not have to hate Stansbury to realize it was time for a new direction.
You are beating on a dead horse. Appreciate what Stansbury did for the program, but move on like the majority of us.
Bottom line, Ray better recruit better and it doesn't help him that he is viewed as a "developmental coach" and only Chicken has gotten better. Fred, Gavin, and Colin up to this point have regressed. At some point he's going to need to sign a difference maker. It almost seems like it's Malik Newman or bust. Hope we pull it off but he better offer a nice "package" if he wants to get Malik.
Ray = Croom, and not just because they both are/were under-qualified and took over a program full of convicts and run of the mill shitheads. Had Croom gone to a school like NCSU or somewhere with calm waters he probably would have had a lot more success (but maybe not, and if so probably not much more), but he followed up a fan-favorite who overstayed his welcome and wasn't given an easy task. We hit rock bottom with Croom, and because we fired him and hired a guy from one of the best programs in the country people started loving our football team again and we now have a revamped stadium. JWS suddenly become a god in Starkville and "the end" is now not necessarily talked about when he comes up.Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKRAYMADE
Ray is simply serving the purpose of removing RS from our rearview mirror and in the meantime keeping us from being the Vandy football of SEC basketball (Vandy football circa Croom era). When Ray is fired (because he will be fired) we're going to remove our LT-esk self-punishment of non-AAU-dom (i.e. hiring Croom) and hire a top assistant/mid-major coach from somewhere great and The Hump will be packed just like DWS was in 2009.
We're too fickle of a fanbase to go straight from JWS to Jimbo/Mullen/anyone-not-named-Croom or from Stans to Payne... because when Jimbo/Payne/Drew/Dooley or whoever sucks for 3-4 years we give up on him and no one gives a shit. See Cohen*.
Ray can't recruit so he will ultimately be fired, but I wish him the best. The only real thing I have to complain about is the lack of support he's getting from fans. Last year was my last as a student and I tried to attend as many games as possible and I was usually the only one there.
*Cohen might have sucked his first few years but was having success in recruiting... which was enough to have at least 50% of the fanbase on his side.
Yeah, because Kenny Payne is a big-time coach.
Huh? Byrne had huuuuge balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkernhelldawg
Scott? Not so much. What has he done to show that? Scott is an idealist; how does that make him have balls?
UH -- he got rid of our popular all-time winningest coach off a 21-win season and NIT appearance -- who happened to also be best friends with Scott's father-in-law. He then hired who he considered the correct man for the job against the wishes of the people that basically pay his salary and will have the ability to get rid of him altogether if they so choose if/when basketball hire doesn't work out -- essentially laying his nuts out on the table instead of taking the safe route.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueMaroon
Or does that not qualify as "balls" these days?
I love how people argue for regression when they probably haven't even looked at the stats -- much less brought them to the discussion. Yeah -- you have no agenda**Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKRAYMADE
Fact is -- you wouldn't like what stats tell you anyway -- where the only player you can ACTUALLY argue for regression is Fred Thomas -- who simply has a confidence issue and will get going sooner or later.
Kenny Payne was such a huge can't miss coaching prospect that he is now the head coach at the prestigious.... oh wait, he's still the Ed Orgeron for Kentucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by smootness
Joe Dooley was such a can't miss coaching prospect that he got fired 4 years into his previous head coaching gig and then spent nearly 15 YEARS as an assistant before getting another chance at the almighty FGCU (granted they will probably beat us). I cannot fathom how he could be such a great coach for all those years with Bill Self talking about how awesome he is, and NOT get any other job for so long...
**smootness - I know you were being sarcastic in your post, so I'm not addressing this towards you even though I quoted your post**
Balls? A blind squirrel knew that Stansburry was done. Stans was done when he lost to Georgia, and he was already on thin ice. Scott was way under prepared for the search and it showed up big time by letting almost a month pass before hiring a new coach. Stans and Bailey were friends, but they weren't best friends by any stretch. I dont see balls; I see incompetence.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
What I saw was a first time Athletic Director who fell flat on his face and failed to sell the program thus whiffing on choice A, B, C, and then finally option R was willing to sign on.
Just because somebody isnt a fan of Rick Ray, it doesnt mean they were fan of Rick Stansburry. It was time for Stansburry to move on; however, we did a piss poor job handling his replacement.
Just like Mullen was a "big time coach." Mullen was the #1 assistant from a winning, big time program. Kenny is the #1 assistant for arguably the biggest program (top 3 at least). Mullen wasn't on anyone else's radar, just like most teams probably wouldn't hire Kenny... but still a big time coach compared to a second-tier assistant from one of the worst ACC teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by smootness
Kenny wouldn't have kicked those 4 players off the team and he'd just be a continuation of the culture. Add Ray in between and you fix everything.
I'm certainly not saying I wanted to hire Payne or want to hire him now... just conversing.
My post was sarcastic in answer to a post that lauded the AD's manhood.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueMaroon
It's obvious there are still plenty of State fans who didn't want Stans to go, including some big-time boosters; regardless of what you think (and may agreed with you as well), it still took balls to fire him before the wheels completely came off from a record standpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueMaroon
And yes, the Ray hire did take balls. You can think it was incompetent or terrible, that's fine; but it still took balls. He knew people would say, 'Who?' and that many would do exactly what they're doing, which is refusing to support the program until Ray overwhelms them with success; yet he still pulled the trigger. That takes balls.
What did Byrne do that proved he had balls? He fired Croom? Ok...no more difficult than firing Stans. He hired Cohen? What a ballsy hire (it was 100% the right hire, just saying that it was pretty easy). And getting the top assistant from Florida may have been a very good choice as well, but it was still fairly straightforward.
Some apparently want Stricklin to do things like shove cowbells in the SEC's face and tell them to screw themselves, but that is just stupid and counterproductive. For the life of me, I can't understand why so many are so up in arms over Stricklin. The guy is a good AD.
All I can figure is that our fanbase is just uncreative or dimwitted.
Ray? Croom 2.0
Stricklin? LT 2.0
Can we not at least come up with things besides, 'They're just like that last bad move we made at that position'?
I didn't realize that planning was a prerequisite to having a sack. In my experience, those two things RARELY work together. But I learn something new every day**Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueMaroon
Which simply means that you weren't paying attention to how the search actually went down.Quote:
What I saw was a first time Athletic Director who fell flat on his face and failed to sell the program thus whiffing on choice A, B, C, and then finally option R was willing to sign on.
There is no possible way for you to know this yet. Time will tell if we did a good job or bad job.Quote:
Just because somebody isnt a fan of Rick Ray, it doesnt mean they were fan of Rick Stansburry. It was time for Stansburry to move on; however, we did a piss poor job handling his replacement.
Either way -- Stricklin laid his ass out on the line for Rick Ray. That takes balls. LT would have kept Stans -- and hired either Kirby or Cunningham.
Kenny Payne is NOT the #1 assistant at Kentucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by esplanade91
Thank you. Antigua is their top assistant. Payne is, at best, #2 and the comparison to Orgeron is a good one. He is a guy who is there for recruiting and little else.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
I concur TrueMaroon. Good post.
Eh, hard to tell. At best it's 1a and 1b. Cal isn't knocking any doors down to promote Antigua for HC positions. Either way it's a wash. Both are good recruiters and I think would do great jobs as Head Coaches. Remember, Payne also did an awesome job at Oregon as an assistant as well.
His top assistant in Memphis was obviously Pastner.