Excuse me

I feel like I’m especially qualified to discuss this*

If bonds and Clemens get in then palmeiro will eventually get in as well. I honestly have no problem with none of them getting in. However, Clemens is the one that I think deserves to be in the least of them all. Yes bonds broke the most hallowed of records held by a TRUE icon of the game but Clemens use directly affected numerous post seasons and that bothers me more than individual records. When Clemens came back in on a days rest to throw 5 shutout innings in game for against the Braves in 05 is a direct result of his steroid use. It allows for quicker and more efficient rehab and comebacks for pitchers.

Steroids for a pitcher are far less effective than for a 170 pounder who hits for a good batting avg and power who puts on 80+ pounds and becomes a home run hitter.


What would bonds have done without the steroids, GH and 80+ pound weight gain ? He’d probably still hit 500 home runs, hit for average and be a HOFer but he sure as hell wouldn’t have hit 700+ home runs.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232963978123

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Originally Posted by WhiskeyPirate

Steroids for a pitcher are far less effective than for a 170 pounder who hits for a good batting avg and power who puts on 80+ pounds and becomes a home run hitter.


What would bonds have done without the steroids, GH and 80+ pound weight gain ? He’d probably still hit 500 home runs, hit for average and be a HOFer but he sure as hell wouldn’t have hit 700+ home runs.

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Steroids main thing is the injury recovery speed. The what if I always think of is if Junior did roids. With so many injuries he had, to still break 600 and clean. Man he'd have had 800+.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeyPirate

Steroids for a pitcher are far less effective than for a 170 pounder who hits for a good batting avg and power who puts on 80+ pounds and becomes a home run hitter.


What would bonds have done without the steroids, GH and 80+ pound weight gain ? He’d probably still hit 500 home runs, hit for average and be a HOFer but he sure as hell wouldn’t have hit 700+ home runs.

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Disagree 100%

Pitchers benefited the most because they could come back sooner and stronger.

Yes steroids helped guys hit further, obviously, but the number 1 thing they did was increase the speed at which your body recovers from injury, muscle use, or basically anything that normally affects guys once they reach their mid 30s. That’s really what separates the steroid era from other eras in the game…all the late 30s early 40s guys that were putting up record numbers.

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Originally Posted by Tater

Steroids main thing is the injury recovery speed. The what if I always think of is if Junior did roids. With so many injuries he had, to still break 600 and clean. Man he'd have had 800+.

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Melon headed 250 pound Bonds wasn’t juiced to the gills for injury prevention. He was a hitter with power he never would have possessed naturally. Growth hormone may have helped recovery but many juicers are constantly tearing tendons and muscles.

The biggest advantage Clemons got was probably just more mass coming down the mound with a little better velocity. Pitching arms don’t correlate with raw strength like power hitters do. Oil can Boyd probably couldn’t have benched 135 pounds.

Disagree on steroids being miracle drugs for a rotator cuff or shoulder joint. Corticosteroids help but not necessarily anabolic steroids.

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Originally Posted by shoeless joe

I feel like I’m especially qualified to discuss this*

If bonds and Clemens get in then palmeiro will eventually get in as well. I honestly have no problem with none of them getting in. However, Clemens is the one that I think deserves to be in the least of them all. Yes bonds broke the most hallowed of records held by a TRUE icon of the game but Clemens use directly affected numerous post seasons and that bothers me more than individual records. When Clemens came back in on a days rest to throw 5 shutout innings in game for against the Braves in 05 is a direct result of his steroid use. It allows for quicker and more efficient rehab and comebacks for pitchers.

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I believe most if not all of the steroid guys will eventually get in- but it will be the Veteran's committee putting them in.

And LOL at the media for virtue signaling not voting for McGwire and Bonds but then voting in Jeff Bagwell.

The truth is steroids was so rampant at that time that it was basically a roided up pitcher vs a roided up hitter. Which to me levels the playing field.

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Originally Posted by shoeless joe

Disagree 100%

Pitchers benefited the most because they could come back sooner and stronger.

Yes steroids helped guys hit further, obviously, but the number 1 thing they did was increase the speed at which your body recovers from injury, muscle use, or basically anything that normally affects guys once they reach their mid 30s. That’s really what separates the steroid era from other eras in the game…all the late 30s early 40s guys that were putting up record numbers.

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People misunderstand what steroids were really for. But you get it. It was helping players get stronger and play longer. The majority taking steroids at that time were not hitting 500 foot home runs. It was so players could accelerate their recovery and play more over a 162+ game schedule. Something that players were doing well before the 1990's with amphetamines- basically getting high so that they could play that day.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeyPirate

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232963978123

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meanwhile Dale Murphy just shakes his head

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.

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Exactly

I watched Barry’s dad Bobby play, a 30 30 guy , good speed with some decent power.....that’s about what Barry would have been, lean not a bulky power hitter.

If you google some images of bonds when he was a rookie he really was pretty puny. He became so bulked up on juice it was ridiculous not to mention the head to toe armor he would wear so he could crowd the plate. He was a chemical creation.

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Originally Posted by FISHDAWG

meanwhile Dale Murphy just shakes his head

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Rep!

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.

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More like great to even greater. Bonds was always a top flight player

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Originally Posted by msstate7

More like great to even greater. Bonds was always a top flight player

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Meh- Barry Bonds before steroids:

1986- 16- 48 .223
1987- 25- 59 .261
1988- 24- 58 .283
1989- 19- 58 .248
1990- 33-114 .301
1991- 25-116 .292

It could be argued that he started getting on the juice by 1990 but most I've seen seems to point to 1992. Bonds was about a 25-30 HR guy without the roids. Really good- but not great. He became GREAT with roids.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.

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Wrong. just wrong. It isn't unheard of for players to be better in the 30s than in their 20s at all. In fact, a lot of players will tell you they didn't find their best hitting until their late 20s. Look at 2 of the best - Aaron and Mays. Hank Aaron had 253 HR thru 8 seasons at age 27 (31.6 a season). He hit 301 over his next 8 seasons to age 35 (37.6 a season). Then he had his best HR season at age 37 when he hit 47 bombs. He even had 1 more 40 HR season in '73 at age 39. Mays was the same way - 216 HR in 7 seasons to age 27 (30.9). He hit 326 over his next 8 (40.75), then tailed off his last decade.

Bonds numbers thru 1999 (age 34) track pretty well with Aarons (445 to 554) - in a juiced ball era, which was just as responsible for the HR surge as steroids (and don't say MLB didn't juice it, hell they got caught juicing the ball this season!). It is almost certain Bonds would have reached 500 HR in 1-2 more years. But he felt that wasn't enough. From what I've read about Bonds and BALCO, the '98 McGuire/Sosa race plus him being injured in '99 are what led him to going "all in" while also moving to a new park that was 309 ft down the RF line in 2000. He wanted the record and went for it with juice. He juiced, and might have juiced earlier than that.

But the take about players not improving after 27 is just way off base.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

Wrong. just wrong. It isn't unheard of for players to be better in the 30s than in their 20s at all. In fact, a lot of players will tell you they didn't find their best hitting until their late 20s. Look at 2 of the best - Aaron and Mays. Hank Aaron had 253 HR thru 8 seasons at age 27 (31.6 a season). He hit 301 over his next 8 seasons to age 35 (37.6 a season). Then he had his best HR season at age 37 when he hit 47 bombs. He even had 1 more 40 HR season in '73 at age 39. Mays was the same way - 216 HR in 7 seasons to age 27 (30.9). He hit 326 over his next 8 (40.75), then tailed off his last decade.

Bonds numbers thru 1999 (age 34) track pretty well with Aarons - especially in a juiced ball era, which was just as responsible for the HR surge as steroids (and don't say MLB didn't juice it, hell they got caught juicing the ball this season!). From what I've read about Bonds and BALCO, the '98 McGuire/Sosa race plus him being injured in '99 are what led him to going "all in" while also moving to a new park that was 309 ft down the RF line in 2000. He wanted the record and went for it with juice.

But the take about players not improving after 27 is just way off base.

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I didnt say players dont improve after age 27. But you are also comparing guys that werent the norm being called up to the Big League as boys. Bonds played 3 years of college baseball and was much more mature than Mays or Aaron. Had more modern training than they did coming up. 27-33 is probably some of your best baseball years. I dont dispute that. But the jump we started seeing out of Bonds was ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Meh- Barry Bonds before steroids:

1986- 16- 48 .223
1987- 25- 59 .261
1988- 24- 58 .283
1989- 19- 58 .248
1990- 33-114 .301
1991- 25-116 .292

It could be argued that he started getting on the juice by 1990 but most I've seen seems to point to 1992. Bonds was about a 25-30 HR guy without the roids. Really good- but not great. He became GREAT with roids.

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fWAR is a great way to compare him to his peers at the time.
1986 - 3.3
'87 - 5.3
'88 - 5.4
'89 - 7.1
'90 - 9.9
'91 - 7.8

That's really good

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Originally Posted by Coach34

I didnt say players dont improve after age 27. But you are also comparing guys that werent the norm being called up to the Big League as boys. Bonds played 3 years of college baseball and was much more mature than Mays or Aaron. Had more modern training than they did coming up. 27-33 is probably some of your best baseball years. I dont dispute that. But the jump we started seeing out of Bonds was ridiculous.

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Bonds came up at age 21.
Aaron came up in 1954 at age 20. He'd had 2 years in the minors.
Mays made his ML debut in 1951 at age 20. He'd played 1 season in the Negro Leagues, 1.5 seasons in the minors.

I just don't think 1 year in college made him that much more mature than any kid making their ML debut at age 20-21.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

I believe most if not all of the steroid guys will eventually get in- but it will be the Veteran's committee putting them in.

And LOL at the media for virtue signaling not voting for McGwire and Bonds but then voting in Jeff Bagwell.

The truth is steroids was so rampant at that time that it was basically a roided up pitcher vs a roided up hitter. Which to me levels the playing field.

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I always think of Bagwell when I think of roids. Dude looked like a WWF wrestler. He was as juiced as McGwire or Bonds, no one ever said anything for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.

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I doubt Bonds would have failed to get bigger without the roids. In other words, I doubt he was working out like a beast and stuck at 160, then did roids and HGH and bulked up like he did. Seems more likely he started working out a lot harder concurrently with juicing, so without the juice he likely would have been somewhere in between.