Oliver Black

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08-04-2014, 10:02 PM
CadaverDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by engie

Exactly.

I'm beyond sick of this shit. Can always count on those two to ruin EVERY SINGLE basketball thread. Was not about Ray at all until they came in with axes to grind basically shitting on a player thread in order to inform everyone Ray still sucks..

I agree that the thread shouldn't have gone down this road, but....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach34

Dawg61 will be relieved

^This^ is why the thread took the turn it did.

This post has nothing to do with your comments, just pointing out that a good way to keep EVERY bball thread from turning out this way, is for people to quit instigating it. I agree, I'm sick of the Ray debate. It was funny for a while, but every thread turns out the same now.
08-04-2014, 10:09 PM
smootness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg61

If y'all would stop trying to fluff the balls of a coach that has won 4 games and 5 games in the SEC every chance you can get I will stop having to come in and throw out tough love.

Because y'all are missing the other side to this. The side that I see. What happened with Quantrel Denson a player Ray signed? What happened the first year with Daniels and Ndoye? Two players that Ray signed. What happened with Applewhite his first season? A player Ray signed. What happened with Davis? A player Ray signed. So Black got qualified. GREAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Why does Ray keep signing question marks? I get signing a player like Newman that might be a question mark (not saying he is) but we are signing no name guys that aren't getting cleared till August going into year 3 still. Come on man we are a fu@king SEC team with pretty decent basketball tradition. Sign good players that aren't grade issues. Period.

So feel free to post this in a 'Let's grade Rick Ray' thread or a 'Why do we go after questionable academic guys in basketball?' thread. But this thread was just about Oliver Black being cleared. Which is better than Oliver Black not being cleared, which were at this point the only two options in this situation. We got the better outcome. So that's better for us than the other option. That's all this thread was.

Every thread does not have to be a referendum on Ray. We know how you and tcdog feel, I promise. Who is going all-out in praise of Ray? The only things that have happened in the last couple of months in relation to basketball are us landing a really good recruit, Black qualifying, and us apparently getting some perceived momentum in the Newman sweepstakes. It's been all good news. It doesn't make Ray a genius, and doesn't mean we've forgotten that the last two years have stunk.

But it's good news, and we are State fans. We want us to succeed, so we like good news. We don't feel the need to make sure we take every small victory and trash it so we can remind ourselves that everything actually sucks.

It's like going into a town after a disaster and reminding everyone who is trying to rebuild and is happy that one of their pictures survived that, hey, the rest of their house is completely destroyed. It's pointless and makes you insufferable.
08-04-2014, 10:28 PM
Dawg61

Quote:

Originally Posted by smootness

So feel free to post this in a 'Let's grade Rick Ray' thread or a 'Why do we go after questionable academic guys in basketball?' thread. But this thread was just about Oliver Black being cleared. Which is better than Oliver Black not being cleared, which were at this point the only two options in this situation. We got the better outcome. So that's better for us than the other option. That's all this thread was.

Every thread does not have to be a referendum on Ray. We know how you and tcdog feel, I promise. Who is going all-out in praise of Ray? The only things that have happened in the last couple of months in relation to basketball are us landing a really good recruit, Black qualifying, and us apparently getting some perceived momentum in the Newman sweepstakes. It's been all good news. It doesn't make Ray a genius, and doesn't mean we've forgotten that the last two years have stunk.

But it's good news, and we are State fans. We want us to succeed, so we like good news. We don't feel the need to make sure we take every small victory and trash it so we can remind ourselves that everything actually sucks.

It's like going into a town after a disaster and reminding everyone who is trying to rebuild and is happy that one of their pictures survived that, hey, the rest of their house is completely destroyed. It's pointless and makes you insufferable.

Good post. I think Cadaver nailed it.
08-04-2014, 10:46 PM
smootness

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

^This^ is why the thread took the turn it did.

This post has nothing to do with your comments, just pointing out that a good way to keep EVERY bball thread from turning out this way, is for people to quit instigating it. I agree, I'm sick of the Ray debate. It was funny for a while, but every thread turns out the same now.

Your point is somewhat valid. But I think we all knew what was happening regardless of that post by C34.

And heck, his only point was that Dawg61 would be relieved because it means we'll have one more body, which a) is a valid point; and b) shouldn't make him come back with ridiculousness trying to trash Ray again.

It could have easily just been a 'Yes, I am' or, 'Good, at least we'll have 12'. But nope.
08-05-2014, 10:30 AM
tcdog70

Engie, Engie, Engie--I just wish that one day i can also become a legend in my Mind. message board hero-
08-05-2014, 10:38 AM
tcdog70

Quote:

Originally Posted by smootness

No. Your clear implication is that he doesn't know how, not that he didn't have the players to be able to do it.

i didn't mean to thinly veil anything. IMHO Ray sucks--that ain't too thin. I wish he could prove Me wrong--still waiting. Please give me an example of where it was Ray showed the World he could defeat a 1-3-1. I am hoping that the reason He hasn't shown Us so far is that he just doesn't have the players But now He has Black. I do feel sorry for Flat Top Fred, Ware, Chicken, Roq,and the other players and they are just not talented enough to learn how to play against a zone defense.
08-05-2014, 10:52 AM
thf24

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcdog70

I do feel sorry for Flat Top Fred, Ware, Chicken, Roq,and the other players and they are just not talented enough to learn how to play against a zone defense.

Fred - prolonged shooting slump (which he seemed to be coming out of at the end of the season, shot around 40% from 3 in the final stretch)
Ware - our only legit post player, easily double teamed down low without much consequence
Chicken - slasher who's not effective against a zone without shooters around him
Roq - can't match up in the post and can't shoot, no help against a zone without shooters (see a pattern here?)

It had nothing to do with our individual players' talents, we were simply missing the necessary skill sets from others. Bottom line, you've got to have shooters to break any zone. We didn't last year, we do this year. It'll also help that opposing teams will have to play honest down low, because instead of having just one guy they could easily cover up, we'll have two, with two more behind them on the bench.
08-05-2014, 02:59 PM
JOHNHEVESYMADE

Only way Ray turns this ship around is if he gets Malik. We will be better win wise this year but no where near NIT level. Need a difference maker at PG not a 5'8 smurf who is made of glass.
08-05-2014, 03:28 PM
tcdog70

Quote:

Originally Posted by thf24

Fred - prolonged shooting slump (which he seemed to be coming out of at the end of the season, shot around 40% from 3 in the final stretch)
Ware - our only legit post player, easily double teamed down low without much consequence
Chicken - slasher who's not effective against a zone without shooters around him
Roq - can't match up in the post and can't shoot, no help against a zone without shooters (see a pattern here?)

It had nothing to do with our individual players' talents, we were simply missing the necessary skill sets from others. Bottom line, you've got to have shooters to break any zone. We didn't last year, we do this year. It'll also help that opposing teams will have to play honest down low, because instead of having just one guy they could easily cover up, we'll have two, with two more behind them on the bench.

ISN'T TALENT AND SKILL SET THE SAME THING? AND WHOSE JOB IS IT TO GO OUT AND GET SOMEONE WHO CAN SHOOT?
08-05-2014, 03:38 PM
thf24

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcdog70

ISN'T TALENT AND SKILL SET THE SAME THING? AND WHOSE JOB IS IT TO GO OUT AND GET SOMEONE WHO CAN SHOOT?

Is Craig Sword not talented despite not having a good jump shot in his skill set? No, talent and skill set are not the same thing. And I said earlier in the thread you can blame the roster/personnel deficiencies on Ray if you want to, no one can prove otherwise. But the point is he simply did not have the tools he needed to break a zone defense last year, whether he knew how or not. That doesn't mean we have bad players or prove that Ray is a bad coach.
08-05-2014, 03:58 PM
Dawg61

Quote:

Originally Posted by thf24

Is Craig Sword not talented despite not having a good jump shot in his skill set? No, talent and skill set are not the same thing. And I said earlier in the thread you can blame the roster/personnel deficiencies on Ray if you want to, no one can prove otherwise. But the point is he simply did not have the tools he needed to break a zone defense last year, whether he knew how or not. That doesn't mean we have bad players or prove that Ray is a bad coach.

You guys keep talking about how little Ray had when he got here. So what. Look at all he had going for him as soon as he did get here. A MILLION DOLLAR GIG IN THE SOUTHEASTERN CONFERENCE WITH A FULL SLATE OF OPEN SCHOLARSHIPS TO GIVE TO ANYONE HE WANTS.

Any good coach with some stones would relish the opportunity to get basically a full roster of scholarships to give out to any and all players he could reign in at an SEC university. Competitive juices and cockiness should be flowing that they could build a seriously stacked roster. That opportunity would fire me up personally. I couldn't wait to offer the best in the brightest in every nook in cranny that I could think of. Overseas, Canada, South America, the entire South, forgotten about states with Jimmy Chitwood shooters at every high school, juco, NAIA, transfers, overlooked players, athletes that wanted to play two sports, on and on and on. No excuses should be made. Look at the wonderful opportunity that Rick Ray was and is given. How often does an SEC school hire a career assistant that has zero head coaching experience that isn't already an assistant for that school? NEVER. EVER. EVER. Get brash, get cocky, get confident because the school that hired you has a shit ton going for it. More going for it than 80% of other Division 1 jobs. Rick Ray struck gold.
08-05-2014, 04:17 PM
thf24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg61

You guys keep talking about how little Ray had when he got here. So what. Look at all he had going for him as soon as he did get here. A MILLION DOLLAR GIG IN THE SOUTHEASTERN CONFERENCE WITH A FULL SLATE OF OPEN SCHOLARSHIPS TO GIVE TO ANYONE HE WANTS.

Any good coach with some stones would relish the opportunity to get basically a full roster of scholarships to give out to any and all players he could reign in at an SEC university. Competitive juices and cockiness should be flowing that they could build a seriously stacked roster. That opportunity would fire me up personally. I couldn't wait to offer the best in the brightest in every nook in cranny that I could think of. Overseas, Canada, South America, the entire South, forgotten about states with Jimmy Chitwood shooters at every high school, juco, NAIA, transfers, overlooked players, athletes that wanted to play two sports, on and on and on. No excuses should be made. Look at the wonderful opportunity that Rick Ray was and is given. How often does an SEC school hire a career assistant that has zero head coaching experience that isn't already an assistant for that school? NEVER. EVER. EVER. Get brash, get cocky, get confident because the school that hired you has a shit ton going for it. More going for it than 80% of other Division 1 jobs. Rick Ray struck gold.

I'm not going to argue with any of that. I don't think it's quite as easy as you've always made it out to be, but I can't say with certainty that Ray shouldn't have been able to recruit better despite his circumstances either. It's all moot now, because Ray now has the players that a good coach should be able to do well with in the SEC. We'll see what happens.
08-05-2014, 04:22 PM
Dawg61

Quote:

Originally Posted by thf24

It's all moot now, because Ray now has the players that a good coach should be able to do well with in the SEC. We'll see what happens.

Love these two sentences from you. That is right, it is all moot now. Put up or shut up time. 20 wins baby and I am excited to see if he can do it.
08-05-2014, 04:30 PM
Johnson85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg61

Any good coach with some stones would relish the opportunity to get basically a full roster of scholarships to give out to any and all players he could reign in at an SEC university. Competitive juices and cockiness should be flowing that they could build a seriously stacked roster. That opportunity would fire me up personally. I couldn't wait to offer the best in the brightest in every nook in cranny that I could think of. Overseas, Canada, South America, the entire South, forgotten about states with Jimmy Chitwood shooters at every high school, juco, NAIA, transfers, overlooked players, athletes that wanted to play two sports, on and on and on. No excuses should be made.

This is delusional. Coaches may be competitive, but they still usually are not looking to walk into dumpster fires. If recruiting and coaching SEC basketball were as easy as being brash and offering big time recruits, you wouldn't have so many SEC programs struggling right now. Ray hasn't set the world on fire, but this isn't a video game and you can't just snap your fingers to generate good recruits.
08-05-2014, 05:17 PM
Dawg61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnson85

This is delusional. Coaches may be competitive, but they still usually are not looking to walk into dumpster fires. If recruiting and coaching SEC basketball were as easy as being brash and offering big time recruits, you wouldn't have so many SEC programs struggling right now. Ray hasn't set the world on fire, but this isn't a video game and you can't just snap your fingers to generate good recruits.

And your post is filled with the Woe Is Us poor Ol Miss State attitude. Again any coach that thinks they can coach and recruit would drool over this opportunity to be the HC in the SEC with fans that set the bar so low.
08-05-2014, 05:40 PM
smootness

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcdog70

i didn't mean to thinly veil anything. IMHO Ray sucks--that ain't too thin. I wish he could prove Me wrong--still waiting. Please give me an example of where it was Ray showed the World he could defeat a 1-3-1. I am hoping that the reason He hasn't shown Us so far is that he just doesn't have the players But now He has Black. I do feel sorry for Flat Top Fred, Ware, Chicken, Roq,and the other players and they are just not talented enough to learn how to play against a zone defense.

Ok, so then no, you did not say that he just didn't have the players. You said he didn't know how.
08-05-2014, 08:38 PM
Coach34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg61

And your post is filled with the Woe Is Us poor Ol Miss State attitude. Again any coach that thinks they can coach and recruit would drool over this opportunity to be the HC in the SEC with fans that set the bar so low.

Yet 6 or 7 coaches turned us down before Ray accepted the job...wonder why?
08-05-2014, 10:11 PM
Dawg61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach34

Yet 6 or 7 coaches turned us down before Ray accepted the job...wonder why?

How quickly 3 becomes 6 or 7. We had more wanting the job than we got turned down by and SS hired Ray after only 18 days. That means Ray sold himself as better than all the rest and SS believed it. Good. I want a coach that confident in himself. Let's see it now in results. No more excuses.
08-05-2014, 10:44 PM
Schultzy

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDogFather

Boy we have come a long way.

He's had a loooong way to come, that's what you anti Ray guys are ignoring. He's trying to come back from the worst hoops situation in modern basketball history.

I challenge you to name for me one new hire in major college basketball who had a higher hill to climb than Rick Ray has.
08-06-2014, 12:05 AM
Dawg61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schultzy

He's had a loooong way to come, that's what you anti Ray guys are ignoring. He's trying to come back from the worst hoops situation in modern basketball history.

I challenge you to name for me one new hire in major college basketball who had a higher hill to climb than Rick Ray has.

Scott Drew, Baylor, overcame MURDER

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