The Covid-19 Info thread (keep politics out please)

Asymptomatic spread of covid is "very rare" per the WHO.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asym...-who-says.html

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Originally Posted by confucius say

Asymptomatic spread of covid is "very rare" per the WHO.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asym...-who-says.html

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I find that a little hard to believe based on the fact that there have been some processing plants where a huge percentage of the workforce got it but basically nobody was symptomatic. I guess there could have been one person with mild symptoms somehow circulating it to basically everybody.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

It started in earnest after 9/11 as a counter-terrorism endeavor.

Interestingly, dissolving our county PD and turning all county law enforcement to our Sheriff is on the ballot in November. One of the primary reasons was the issues with use of force, and the tendency to cover for bad acts within the GCPD. And, this was before the Arbery murder and that case went national. While our county PD has become dis-functional, our city police have been working to implement a community policing approach over the past 5 years, and we have seen crime drop 35% a year over the past 3 years - while our overall "metro" area (Glynn, Brantley & McIntosh Counties) have seen an overall increase in crime.

I think a lot of issues could be made better by police, and the command structure, recognizing that they are fallible.

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SO y'all have a county police department, and a sheriff's department? What is the sheriff's department for if not the law enforcement in the county?

It's not just killings that are instances of police brutality. I'm just looking at stats there and that's troubling that we couldn't go two weeks without breaking 500 incidents.

As for the section about black population accounting for 50% of violent crimes and thus coming into contact more with leo. That's a chicken and egg thing, no? Self-fulfilling prophecy somewhat.

Not really, in regards to violent crimes the police are typically called TOO them they aren't there before they happen. In other words, we typically aren't there before the shooting, assault, armed robbery, rape, murder happens they arrive as it's happening or shortly after to pick up the pieces. We have to look at WHY that is and then go from there. It has very little to do with law enforcement and a lot to do with poverty, education, and leadership. That could be addressed many ways.

But your points about growth is correct. We need to defund the military toys (and things that are war crimes) and invest in pay, training, etc. I personally don't think Minneapolis will be successful, but I'm interested to see the results and how this will drive the conversation forward.

I think we can all agree of these 5 things for cops that would make life easier for everyone (cops, poc, white people alike):

1. Require body cameras at all times. (Have someone trained to watching all active cops in the department. Once one feed goes out notify officer immediately. If unable to fix immediately, officer is to return to precinct and be supplied with a new one. Not to engage in any cop-like activities. Arrest with the buddy system to mitigate a person in custody when one camera goes out.)

Most body cameras arent live feed they record and download...and they are expensive. Our department spends about $75k a year on them and we are just a mid-seized department. If you are in pursuit of an individual with a weapon or in the middle of breaking up a dispute you can't just leave to go get a camera and come back later. I mean: guy is running after his wife with a shotgun through the front yard and and you jump out to stop him and your camera falls off or stops working...you just turnaround and leave?? It's going to be VERY tough to use a buddy system when your department is underfunded or DE-funded. Most precincts barely have enough officers to cover a regular shift as it is (that's with one man per beat)...how are you going to afford more police with less money in your budget. Plus...you get rid of qualified immunity then no one in their right minds will be law enforcement anymore anyway. With that said body cameras should be required for all law enforcement but it's going to have to be funded. It's not just the device you are buying but cloud storage forhundreds of thousands of hours of footage and software to parse it all and search it

2. End chokeholds. No neck restraining, period. 100% agree

3. End qualified immunity. You're trained by the law. You shouldn't be able to go outside said bounds without no restriction.

50% disagree. That means if I get in a tussle with a drunk guy that wants to drive home and decides to fight me and he ends up breaking his nose or wrist or whatever...or if I tase him...then he will be able to sue me and also I will have aggravated assault charges leveled against me. Law enforcement officers would be bankrupt or in jail within their first year. I propose QI stands but we appoint a special unit that complaints go directly to at the state level that are triaged by a wide variety of professionals and then appropriate action is taken if warranted. A unit that is dissassociated from the AG's office or any law enforcement agency that is made up of attorneys, social workers, psychologists, use of force experts, investigators, etc. It would be a FULL time job.

4. Stop spending on ridiculous toys, spend on the officers themselves. (The money saved on riot gear, tear gas, swat bullshit is going to more than make up for cameras and training.) 10000000% agree

5. No Han Solo shooting. As a cop, you do not shoot to kill first. You are trained to handle a deadly weapon. You are trained to act under pressure. Shoot to disarm or don't shoot first. Cameras will help tell the story here.

100% disagree You just can't do that. In the heat of the moment when bullets start flying or someone is running at you with a weapon very few people have the type of control to shoot a weapon out of your hand. The second you pull the trigger of a gun you are committing to kill someone. It is a deadly weapon. I've seen people shot in the foot, leg, and arm die within 5 minutes and someone shot in the head live and go home th enext day. Once that projectile enters a body and impacts a bone it can go pretty much anywhere inside of the human body. I can't express enough how wrong you are on this one. Every time I hear this argument I just think someone has watched too much TV and movies. If someone pulls a gun on you you have a second to decide whether or not you want to live the rest of your life. If you want to go home to your family. At the end of the day...don't...pull..a...weapon...on....a...cop... It's a very simple method.

Don't think that this stuff is unreasonable. Would make things go a lot smoother. People wouldn't have to videotape every encounter with a cop. People could feel secure that the cop has a level of oversight that will prevent police brutality. (Again brutality is not limited to death.)

You are correct here and THAT needs to be addressed. Most of the rhetoric seems to focus on death though so that's what I geared my thoughts toward. Again, I have been in law enforcement for 20 years...I have seen our department offer one...ONE...4 hour course on communication and we are probably ahead of the curve on that for most law enforcement agencies. As opposed to our mandatory FIVE TIMES a year training in shooting and fighting. That has to change. You can't sharpen a sword and not expect it to cut. We have to change the way we hire and train.

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Originally Posted by Heston

You are a one man echo chamber.

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3 years and you use your first post on this. Who's banned backup account are you?

Nobody's. And the point stands.

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Originally Posted by Jack Lambert

And Rolex's.

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They never steal work boots and tools.

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Originally Posted by Dawgology

I've stayed silent long enough. I've been in law enforcement for 20 years (not as a first responder) so it has allowed me to view what is happening through two different lenses so here is my take (I will link stat sources in the bottom):

Between 2017 and 2020 3,416 people were shot and killed by law enforcement officials. Approximately 755 of those were black (approx. 22%). Of those 2% were unarmed or had no weapon. That equates to 15 unarmed, black individuals killed by the police over a 4 year period (or approximately 4 a year). Of those I know of at least 6 that made national headlines and were investigated and (in some cases) the officer was charged and/or lost their job. I will have to dig deep to find info on the others. It is an important stat here that is uncomfortable but it is a statistic none-the-less and is not inherently racist. The black population accounts for almost 50% of violent crimes in the US though they represent less than 20% of the overall population. Because of this it stands to reason that the black population actually comes into contact with law enforcement at a higher rate (per capita) than any other race.

On the flip side of that there are over 800,000 active law enforcement officers in the United State today....800,000. I understand that those that have abused their power and made a mockery of the values and codes we hold dear are all over the news but they do NOT represent 99.999% of law enforcement officials. Really. Look at the stats. Let's say that of those 15 unarmed cases that FIVE officers were involved in each incident and they were not justified in that use of force. They would represent .009% of all law enforcement. So all cops are bastards, then? All cops should die? We should defund and dissolve all law enforcement agencies?? Of those 800,000 58,866 were assaulted in 2018 alone with approx. 18,000 sustaining injuries while approximately 163 officers die in the line of duty each year.

The level of stupidity in this country is at an all time high. Minneapolis is talking about dissolving police departments and sending SOCIAL WORKERS and PSYCHOLOGISTS to go to scenes and de-escalate a situation. Good luck finding someone stupid enough to try that. Folks will discover that theory versus application are two very different things. It's very easy to sit in the ivory tower and tell people how things SHOULD be done...it's entirely different in application.

I'm not saying that law enforcement doesn't have room to grow. We need to EVOLVE our police force. We need to stop militarizing our police force to the point we are now and focus more on communication, mental health, and race relations. We need to communicate better with the communities that we serve. This will come down to training and the way hiring is done. I'm not knocking what our military personnel has done for this country but (and this is my opinion) individuals with military experience (especially combat experience) don't need to be on a police force. That entire mindset needs to change.

Also, there MUST be judicial reform. Many things that law enforcement and first responders are blamed for happen at the court setting. Little known fact here...law enforcement has very little to nothing to do with sentencing someone. That happens between prosecutors, defense attorneys, and a judge. Also, I have a big issue with police unions. But that is another matter entirely.

This is all a very complex issue that is being misdirected based on anectodal evidence and not real stats.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2018/topic...cers-assaulted

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ty-and-gender/

https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/law-enforcement-facts

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Outstanding post my friend.

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Originally Posted by Johnson85

SO y'all have a county police department, and a sheriff's department? What is the sheriff's department for if not the law enforcement in the county?

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Yep, it's not uncommon in GA. The Sheriff is elected, runs the jail, courts, serves warrants, etc. Counties have the "option" to create their own police departments, overseen by the county commission, and they handle typical police duties. It's ridiculous, and typically a vanity and control project for county politicians. we have a community of 90,000, with city police, county police, the sheriff's dept, and the school system police (yeah, that's a thing). Not to mention DNR Law Enforcement, GA State Patrol, Georgia Ports Authority Police, and College of Coastal Georgia Police. Oh - and with the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center here, we have DEA, Customs, NCIS, ATF, Park Police, Boarder Patrol, and Secret Service training here, and living here. We probably have more LEO per capita than any community in America

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Originally Posted by Dawgology

It's not just killings that are instances of police brutality. I'm just looking at stats there and that's troubling that we couldn't go two weeks without breaking 500 incidents.

As for the section about black population accounting for 50% of violent crimes and thus coming into contact more with leo. That's a chicken and egg thing, no? Self-fulfilling prophecy somewhat.

Not really, in regards to violent crimes the police are typically called TOO them they aren't there before they happen. In other words, we typically aren't there before the shooting, assault, armed robbery, rape, murder happens they arrive as it's happening or shortly after to pick up the pieces. We have to look at WHY that is and then go from there. It has very little to do with law enforcement and a lot to do with poverty, education, and leadership. That could be addressed many ways.

But your points about growth is correct. We need to defund the military toys (and things that are war crimes) and invest in pay, training, etc. I personally don't think Minneapolis will be successful, but I'm interested to see the results and how this will drive the conversation forward.

I think we can all agree of these 5 things for cops that would make life easier for everyone (cops, poc, white people alike):

1. Require body cameras at all times. (Have someone trained to watching all active cops in the department. Once one feed goes out notify officer immediately. If unable to fix immediately, officer is to return to precinct and be supplied with a new one. Not to engage in any cop-like activities. Arrest with the buddy system to mitigate a person in custody when one camera goes out.)

Most body cameras arent live feed they record and download...and they are expensive. Our department spends about $75k a year on them and we are just a mid-seized department. If you are in pursuit of an individual with a weapon or in the middle of breaking up a dispute you can't just leave to go get a camera and come back later. I mean: guy is running after his wife with a shotgun through the front yard and and you jump out to stop him and your camera falls off or stops working...you just turnaround and leave?? It's going to be VERY tough to use a buddy system when your department is underfunded or DE-funded. Most precincts barely have enough officers to cover a regular shift as it is (that's with one man per beat)...how are you going to afford more police with less money in your budget. Plus...you get rid of qualified immunity then no one in their right minds will be law enforcement anymore anyway. With that said body cameras should be required for all law enforcement but it's going to have to be funded. It's not just the device you are buying but cloud storage forhundreds of thousands of hours of footage and software to parse it all and search it

2. End chokeholds. No neck restraining, period. 100% agree

3. End qualified immunity. You're trained by the law. You shouldn't be able to go outside said bounds without no restriction.

50% disagree. That means if I get in a tussle with a drunk guy that wants to drive home and decides to fight me and he ends up breaking his nose or wrist or whatever...or if I tase him...then he will be able to sue me and also I will have aggravated assault charges leveled against me. Law enforcement officers would be bankrupt or in jail within their first year. I propose QI stands but we appoint a special unit that complaints go directly to at the state level that are triaged by a wide variety of professionals and then appropriate action is taken if warranted. A unit that is dissassociated from the AG's office or any law enforcement agency that is made up of attorneys, social workers, psychologists, use of force experts, investigators, etc. It would be a FULL time job.

4. Stop spending on ridiculous toys, spend on the officers themselves. (The money saved on riot gear, tear gas, swat bullshit is going to more than make up for cameras and training.) 10000000% agree

5. No Han Solo shooting. As a cop, you do not shoot to kill first. You are trained to handle a deadly weapon. You are trained to act under pressure. Shoot to disarm or don't shoot first. Cameras will help tell the story here.

100% disagree You just can't do that. In the heat of the moment when bullets start flying or someone is running at you with a weapon very few people have the type of control to shoot a weapon out of your hand. The second you pull the trigger of a gun you are committing to kill someone. It is a deadly weapon. I've seen people shot in the foot, leg, and arm die within 5 minutes and someone shot in the head live and go home th enext day. Once that projectile enters a body and impacts a bone it can go pretty much anywhere inside of the human body. I can't express enough how wrong you are on this one. Every time I hear this argument I just think someone has watched too much TV and movies. If someone pulls a gun on you you have a second to decide whether or not you want to live the rest of your life. If you want to go home to your family. At the end of the day...don't...pull..a...weapon...on....a...cop... It's a very simple method.

Don't think that this stuff is unreasonable. Would make things go a lot smoother. People wouldn't have to videotape every encounter with a cop. People could feel secure that the cop has a level of oversight that will prevent police brutality. (Again brutality is not limited to death.)

You are correct here and THAT needs to be addressed. Most of the rhetoric seems to focus on death though so that's what I geared my thoughts toward. Again, I have been in law enforcement for 20 years...I have seen our department offer one...ONE...4 hour course on communication and we are probably ahead of the curve on that for most law enforcement agencies. As opposed to our mandatory FIVE TIMES a year training in shooting and fighting. That has to change. You can't sharpen a sword and not expect it to cut. We have to change the way we hire and train.

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Bravo, Sir! Well thought out and great stuff!

ETA agreed that shoot to disarm stuff is people watching to much tv.

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

Bravo, Sir! Well thought out and great stuff!

ETA agreed that shoot to disarm stuff is people watching to much tv.

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Thank you! I would also like to add a few other recommendations:

1. Mandatory yearly psychological visits for all police personnel with close attention to signs of PTSD. I think that most law enforcement officers struggle with PTSD.

2. Regarding the state unit I recommended there should be a scaled system in which once a certain number of credible complaints are issued per capita on a law enforcement agency it would initiate a thorough audit and internal investigation of the entire department. This would be accomplished by the same team composition (attorneys, social workers, psychologists, use of force experts, investigators, etc) that are unaffiliated with the department. Perhaps even fold some local community leaders into that team once it gets on the ground at the department.

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Originally Posted by Johnson85

I find that a little hard to believe based on the fact that there have been some processing plants where a huge percentage of the workforce got it but basically nobody was symptomatic. I guess there could have been one person with mild symptoms somehow circulating it to basically everybody.

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That's a good point.

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Originally Posted by Dawgology

Thank you! I would also like to add a few other recommendations:

1. Mandatory yearly psychological visits for all police personnel with close attention to signs of PTSD. I think that most law enforcement officers struggle with PTSD.

2. Regarding the state unit I recommended there should be a scaled system in which once a certain number of credible complaints are issued per capita on a law enforcement agency it would initiate a thorough audit and internal investigation of the entire department. This would be accomplished by the same team composition (attorneys, social workers, psychologists, use of force experts, investigators, etc) that are unaffiliated with the department. Perhaps even fold some local community leaders into that team once it gets on the ground at the department.

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You've really put a lot of thought into this. From all I've been reading through all this these are by far the best ideas yet. Everybody keeps talking about reform, fixing the "system", yada yada yada, with no realistic ideas being put out other than disband the police depts(which is insane!). These ideas are awesome and and I don't see how anyone(although I'm sure there are some), could argue with this plan. If nothing else would be a great starting point. Thank you for sharing this with us!

Why would a political party want to gut, disband local law enforcement? It’s like there’s a playbook.

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Originally Posted by turkish

Why would a political party want to gut, disband local law enforcement? It’s like there’s a playbook.

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They don't and they will not. They will play lip service to gain points when the time is right. Then do nothing. They have been doing that for ever.

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Originally Posted by Jack Lambert

They don't and they will not. They will play lip service to gain points when the time is right. Then do nothing. They have been doing that for ever.

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That's just good politicking...***

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Originally Posted by Jack Lambert

They don't and they will not. They will play lip service to gain points when the time is right. Then do nothing. They have been doing that for ever.

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Yeah there's a ton of grandstanding going on by politicians right now.

Responding to Dawgology here. For simplicity sake I'll just go by A, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

A. I still think there's somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that police are more likely to be called on a POC. Just look at George Floyd versus that other guy who used a fake $20. One is dead and the other has a funny story to tell about the time he tried to use a counterfeit bill. But I think you hit the nail on the head with why the system is really bad. It's poverty. Poor people are ****ed by it. Regardless of color.

1. I think the software to search shouldn't be that hard to maintain, its the hardware and storage that would be the tough part. We have phones that can broadcast to millions of people currently. I find it hard to believe that we can't afford the cameras themselves. I think the spending point gets covered with 4. Something tells me we have way too much of a budget going somewhere that it shouldn't.

2. Not sure if there is anyone left disagreeing with this tbh.

3. Internal Affairs is supposed to be this unit but that hasn't worked in the past. This is honestly the toughest one. Not sure what to make of it, but the simplest strategy to me is ending it and then building from scratch. I think the way it is now is beyond repair. Obviously you wouldn't want officers sued for discharging a taser. So there does have to be middle ground I agree. Where that is and how that is ironed out is for someone more well versed than me to layout.

4. Nothing to add.

5. It's a tough one. But I think there's nothing wrong with aiming and being at the ready to fire. Not saying to not be in position. But de-escalation should be the key. If someone is posing a threat to pull out a gun there's nothing wrong with having it aimed IMO (if you are properly trained.) Once they draw the gun into sight (make a sudden movement for it, etc.) then that's another story. My point is we shouldn't be shooting people however many times the dude with the hammer got shot because we thought he had a gun. You should have visible proof and intent to shoot from the perp to discharge the weapon. Not just a hunch they may pull it on you.

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Originally Posted by turkish

Why would a political party want to gut, disband local law enforcement? It’s like there’s a playbook.

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Haha! Been in their playbook for a very long time. Good call my friend.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

Responding to Dawgology here. For simplicity sake I'll just go by A, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

A. I still think there's somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that police are more likely to be called on a POC. Just look at George Floyd versus that other guy who used a fake $20. One is dead and the other has a funny story to tell about the time he tried to use a counterfeit bill. But I think you hit the nail on the head with why the system is really bad. It's poverty. Poor people are ****ed by it. Regardless of color.

1. I think the software to search shouldn't be that hard to maintain, its the hardware and storage that would be the tough part. We have phones that can broadcast to millions of people currently. I find it hard to believe that we can't afford the cameras themselves. I think the spending point gets covered with 4. Something tells me we have way too much of a budget going somewhere that it shouldn't.

2. Not sure if there is anyone left disagreeing with this tbh.

3. Internal Affairs is supposed to be this unit but that hasn't worked in the past. This is honestly the toughest one. Not sure what to make of it, but the simplest strategy to me is ending it and then building from scratch. I think the way it is now is beyond repair. Obviously you wouldn't want officers sued for discharging a taser. So there does have to be middle ground I agree. Where that is and how that is ironed out is for someone more well versed than me to layout.

4. Nothing to add.

5. It's a tough one. But I think there's nothing wrong with aiming and being at the ready to fire. Not saying to not be in position. But de-escalation should be the key. If someone is posing a threat to pull out a gun there's nothing wrong with having it aimed IMO (if you are properly trained.) Once they draw the gun into sight (make a sudden movement for it, etc.) then that's another story. My point is we shouldn't be shooting people however many times the dude with the hammer got shot because we thought he had a gun. You should have visible proof and intent to shoot from the perp to discharge the weapon. Not just a hunch they may pull it on you.

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Not making up excuses for anyone... but you make it sound so simple when it's just not in real time. Period.

Plenty of people have been shot very prematurely because someone got nervous or trigger happy and unfortunate isn't the word for that. But when it comes to guns if you are pulling it you better be ready to use it. That goes for a police officer or civilian.

If you make sudden moves and reach in a pocket or somewhere else while someone already has a bead on you, I don't know how to help you. Yes it's possible guns should've never been pulled out and pointed in that scenario without trying to de-escalate the situation first, but these are split second life and death decisions. No one should be held above the law, but at the same time if an officer has a gun on me, I'm going to do whatever he says and very slowly. Nothing is worth dying over.

This doesn't solve the problem of fear most of the black community has towards officers but bottomline on your #5 point is if a gun is out don't mess around because it's very likely the person who is drawn on you is jacked on adrenaline and ready to pull the trigger with any sign. If you have a way to channel that you are on another level. Training can only help so much when it comes to live action.