Men's College Basketball Is a Bad Product

Hi, my name is Gun.

I support MSU in all things but am completely indifferent to the sport of basketball. I don't really like it or dislike it, &, unless MSU is playing, it's a completely irrelevant part of my life.

That being said, I am the exact type of fan college basketball needs to be targeting if the sport is to grow. I am somewhat invested, due to MSU & willing to watch under certain circumstances. The structure of the game SHOULD be trying to draw me in.

That being said, after watching the grace, rhythm & crispness of the lady's game last night & comparing that to the rugby match I am currently watching, men's basketball is a bad product played by exceptional athletes.

Problem is, I'm not really sure how we got here. I remember the game having rhythm with Darrell Wilson, Ray Allen, Timmy Bowers, & now all is see is are great athletes with no skill playing rugby.

Perhaps the one & done & transfers has created a landscape where so many teams are young & lack year to year continuity, that they just simply lack the time & chemistry to develop a pretty game.

However, in the girls game, they stay for 4 years & you know their names. Teams build over time, rivalries develop, etc.

Sign me up for watching girls basketball, because the men's version is painful on my eyes.

Nice grouping ray Allen in there with 2 really good state players haha

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Nice grouping ray Allen in there with 2 really good state players haha

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Just trying to make a larger point.

There are bodies on the ground. I repeat, there are bodies on the ground in this game.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

There are bodies on the ground. I repeat, there are bodies on the ground in this game.

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Need pads

If nothing else, this is the most physical game we've had this year. Moreso in some respects than some of our football games. **

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Originally Posted by RocketDawg

If nothing else, this is the most physical game we've had this year. Moreso in some respects than some of our football games. **

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It's just really hard to watch.

I wonder if college basketball would benefit by moving the 3 point like back a little so that the players are more spread out?

I actually agree. Basketball has turned to shit the last 10 years

Hey look people are enjoying a basketball game I think you should explain why basketball sucks. Oh nvm you do that after every game.

I used to love it. Now I can't watch.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

Hey look people are enjoying a basketball game I think you should explain why basketball sucks. Oh nvm you do that after every game.

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I very much love watching MSU win, but, for entertainment value, the sport currently sucks.

The girls play a more watchable game imo.

Agree. Never thought I would enjoy watching girls basketball but it is more fun to watch than the guys.

I was glued to the game. Of course I never missed a Rick ray game though. I love state basketball

If everything wasnt a foul it would be better. I dont think its anything but refs wanting to blow the whistle and be seen. Tonight was pitiful by the refs

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Originally Posted by msstate7

I was glued to the game. Of course I never missed a Rick ray game though. I love state basketball

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And this is fine. You are a true fan while I am not.

The game keeps a purist like yourself no matter what.

It has more to do with how the game is officiated at this point in time than anything. The NCAA claims the officiating tendencies implemented over the past few years are to make the game smoother and more fan friendly, but if that's what they think their direction is resulting in then they don't know what they actually want or how to accomplish it. There's plenty of skill in college basketball, it's just that there's not much incentive right now to use a high degree of it over just trying to out-athlete the other guy.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

And this is fine. You are a true fan while I am not.

The game keeps a purist like yourself no matter what.

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To be fair, you have a point bc I never miss a state game, but I rarely watch games outside the sec

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

I very much love watching MSU win, but, for entertainment value, the sport currently sucks.

The girls play a more watchable game imo.

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The thing is Shotgun you've made this thread multiple times before so you're just throwing shade on a sunny day when people are trying to enjoy a game. This is the biggest win MSU has had in the last seven years.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

The thing is Shotgun you've made this thread multiple times before so you're just throwing shade on a sunny day when people are trying to enjoy a game. This is the biggest win MSU has had in the last seven years.

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I started this thread long before the game ended.

I’m super excited about the win but that has nothing to do with my post.

Not sure if I’ve watched enough basketball over the past 5 years to make this post.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

I started this thread long before the game ended.

I’m super excited about the win but that has nothing to do with my post.

Not sure if I’ve watched enough basketball over the past 5 years to make this post.

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The problem with college basketball has been discussed ad nauseam in the last decade. There's 3 main reasons why it's become a declining product.

1. The NBA's one and done rule poaches the top 30-40 players every year. The NBA doesn't have a sustainable minor league system like baseball either so players are forced to leave early if they are going to get drafted. They can't wait and risk losing their spot. NBA teams don't like to draft upperclassmen or graduates as much as they like to draft on potential.

2. The AAU game has totally corrupted and destroyed high school basketball causing a rippling effect into the college game. Players play for themselves to try to get ranked as high as possible so the NBA will draft them. They have about a two year window to get drafted high in or they are ****ed so they are forced to play selfish basketball instead of disciplined team basketball.

3. The officiating is horrible in college basketball on purpose to try and improve the shooting from the players before they go to the NBA. They basically don't want the defender to touch the shooter at all ever which helps the offensive players to learn how to shoot as best as possible before they go to the NBA. The NBA gives zero ****s that they are destroying college basketball and apparently college basketball also gives zero ****s that the NBA is destroying their product. Somebody is giving the NCAA billions of dollars to put out a lesser product than it had 20 years ago and the NCAA bends over and takes it with a smile.

Everyone has complained up and down for years and years about this but there's nothing getting done because people investing the most money in it want it this way.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

The problem with college basketball has been discussed ad nauseam in the last decade. There's 3 main reasons why it's become a declining product.

1. The NBA's one and done rule poaches the top 30-40 players every year. The NBA doesn't have a sustainable minor league system like baseball either so players are forced to leave early if they are going to get drafted. They can't wait and risk losing their spot. NBA teams don't like to draft upperclassmen or graduates as much as they like to draft on potential.

2. The AAU game has totally corrupted and destroyed high school basketball causing a rippling effect into the college game. Players play for themselves to try to get ranked as high as possible so the NBA will draft them. They have about a two year window to get drafted high in or they are ****ed so they are forced to play selfish basketball instead of disciplined team basketball.

3. The officiating is horrible in college basketball on purpose to try and improve the shooting from the players before they go to the NBA. They basically don't want the defender to touch the shooter at all ever which helps the offensive players to learn how to shoot as best as possible before they go to the NBA. The NBA gives zero ****s that they are destroying college basketball and apparently college basketball also gives zero ****s that the NBA is destroying their product. Somebody is giving the NCAA billions of dollars to put out a lesser product than it had 20 years ago and the NCAA bends over and takes it with a smile.

Everyone has complained up and down for years and years about this but there's nothing getting done because people investing the most money in it want it this way.

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I'd agree with all of that, except maybe the reason for the officiating. I just know it's bad, I don't know why. Heck I'd NEVER thought that I say it but old John Clougherty, Don Rutledge, and Gerald Boudreaux would look like good officials now. That is definitely a comment in how bad things have gotten, not that those guys were good officials. If they just stop trying to make college basketball into the NBA Jr it would help.

But you still have Hess and Valentine

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

Hi, my name is Gun.

I support MSU in all things but am completely indifferent to the sport of basketball. I don't really like it or dislike it, &, unless MSU is playing, it's a completely irrelevant part of my life.

That being said, I am the exact type of fan college basketball needs to be targeting if the sport is to grow. I am somewhat invested, due to MSU & willing to watch under certain circumstances. The structure of the game SHOULD be trying to draw me in.

That being said, after watching the grace, rhythm & crispness of the lady's game last night & comparing that to the rugby match I am currently watching, men's basketball is a bad product played by exceptional athletes.

Problem is, I'm not really sure how we got here. I remember the game having rhythm with Darrell Wilson, Ray Allen, Timmy Bowers, & now all is see is are great athletes with no skill playing rugby.

Perhaps the one & done & transfers has created a landscape where so many teams are young & lack year to year continuity, that they just simply lack the time & chemistry to develop a pretty game.

However, in the girls game, they stay for 4 years & you know their names. Teams build over time, rivalries develop, etc.

Sign me up for watching girls basketball, because the men's version is painful on my eyes.

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You do know the Winter Olympics are starting, maybe you could enjoy that and leave the Basketball to Us that like it.

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Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

I'd agree with all of that, except maybe the reason for the officiating. I just know it's bad, I don't know why. Heck I'd NEVER thought that I say it but old John Clougherty, Don Rutledge, and Gerald Boudreaux would look like good officials now. That is definitely a comment in how bad things have gotten, not that those guys were good officials. If they just stop trying to make college basketball into the NBA Jr it would help.

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It's simple. They want offense so they want the offensive player to be allowed the "freedom of movement". Which in layman's terms means they don't want the defender to touch the offensive player with the ball so they're able to shoot it freely. It's meant to create better shooting = more offense. It's a big reason why I want Howland to fill his roster with great shooters so we can take advantage of the rules while they're set like this. We can exploit a weakness in the rules this way.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

I started this thread long before the game ended.

I?m super excited about the win but that has nothing to do with my post.

Not sure if I?ve watched enough basketball over the past 5 years to make this post.

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I?ve stopped watching basketball as much as I used to, but I?d suggest watching other conferences before deducting the whole sport is bad. It seems the SEC (while some say is a strong conference) plays and/or is officiated as a sloppy form of basketball.

I?d prefer watching the Big 10 or ACC. I can?t stand watching the SEC and only even turn it on unless State is playing (even then it?s hard to get through a whole game).

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Originally Posted by Gutter Cobreh

I?ve stopped watching basketball as much as I used to, but I?d suggest watching other conferences before deducting the whole sport is bad. It seems the SEC (while some say is a strong conference) plays and/or is officiated as a sloppy form of basketball.

I?d prefer watching the Big 10 or ACC. I can?t stand watching the SEC and only even turn it on unless State is playing (even then it?s hard to get through a whole game).

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I can get behind this.

I watched a little of Oklahoma vs WV last night & it was a better product.

Our games look like rugby matches. Very difficult on the eyes

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

I can get behind this.

I watched a little of Oklahoma vs WV last night & it was a better product.

Our games look like rugby matches. Very difficult on the eyes

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We are a defensive team. We win with defense not offense. We have the #1 defense in the SEC PPG. Howland has to turn us into Pittsburgh first before he can get us a team that resembles his UCLA 3 Final Four teams and even those teams the UCLA fanbase complained non-stop about their offense. Funny thing is the year he got fired they won the Pac-12 and led the league in offense but lost their best player to injury right before the Pac-12 tourney and were a quick exit cause of it in that tournament and the NCAA tourney and Howland got fired. Total unjust firing. Some of you think the Stansbury firing was unjust well it doesn't hold a candle to what UCLA did to Howland. He won the Pac-12 title about 3 weeks before they fired him and that's with his best player breaking his foot. Long story short you're gonna have to enjoy the massive improvement we have made in defense to really appreciate watching MSU play basketball right now. You aren't going to get it expecting to watch a bunch of 3's and dunks. The improvement we have made on defense this year is better than we made in football this year under Grantham.

The touch fouls and free throw shooting contest has just about killed it for me. It does not allow the crowd to really get into the game for long periods of time because there is a stop in play to shoot ft's every 30 seconds. I also think that the current NBA model is really an advantage for traditional blue bloods.

I said something to that effect to Brandon Walker and dude acted like I just cussed the team. I just said they need to move more without the ball. When you watch the ladies they are always moving and screening to get open. The guys basically stand still and wait for the guy with the ball to drive and dish it out. There's not much back door cutting at all. Just seems like its played as a much slower pace then the ladies. But that goes for all men teams. It's all played like that pretty much.

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Originally Posted by IMissJack

I also think that the current NBA model is really an advantage for traditional blue bloods.

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Agree

Funnels all the top talent to blue bloods because they always have plenty of schollies and playing time to offer.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

We are a defensive team. We win with defense not offense. We have the #1 defense in the SEC PPG. Howland has to turn us into Pittsburgh first before he can get us a team that resembles his UCLA 3 Final Four teams and even those teams the UCLA fanbase complained non-stop about their offense. Funny thing is the year he got fired they won the Pac-12 and led the league in offense but lost their best player to injury right before the Pac-12 tourney and were a quick exit cause of it in that tournament and the NCAA tourney and Howland got fired. Total unjust firing. Some of you think the Stansbury firing was unjust well it doesn't hold a candle to what UCLA did to Howland. He won the Pac-12 title about 3 weeks before they fired him and that's with his best player breaking his foot. Long story short you're gonna have to enjoy the massive improvement we have made in defense to really appreciate watching MSU play basketball right now. You aren't going to get it expecting to watch a bunch of 3's and dunks. The improvement we have made on defense this year is better than we made in football this year under Grantham.

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Great post.

It’s just hard to watch

Actually, I enjoyed the game tonight. What sucked about the game tonight was Teddy V and Greene together. If we sneezed wrong, they called a foul. The descripency from officiating crew to officiating crew is so vast that it makes for inconsistency from game to game as players try to figure what is and isn’t a foul. With that said, it was two of the top defensive teams in the SEC going head to head. A 67-63 game was bound to happen.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

Great post.

It’s just hard to watch

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That depends on if you're really watching it and noticing the improvements in the players and team or you're just kinda watching it while you're ****ing around on the laptop at the same time. Can you name all the players without looking it up? I bet you can name almost the entire two deep in football and really pay attention to each player's progression. Football thus is much more entertaining for you cause you are really watching it not just half-ass watching it.

I've noticed that the SEC seems to be called much tighter than other conferences. Probably why SC made it to the Final Four last year.. Probably why the SEC will do well in the NCAAT this year

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

It's simple. They want offense so they want the offensive player to be allowed the "freedom of movement". Which in layman's terms means they don't want the defender to touch the offensive player with the ball so they're able to shoot it freely. It's meant to create better shooting = more offense. It's a big reason why I want Howland to fill his roster with great shooters so we can take advantage of the rules while they're set like this. We can exploit a weakness in the rules this way.

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If that’s the goal it’s failing. What it does is disrupt everything and the game never gets into a flow. The offense at times is who makes the most free throws. It’s just painful to watch.

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Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

If that’s the goal it’s failing. What it does is disrupt everything and the game never gets into a flow. The offense at times is who makes the most free throws. It’s just painful to watch.

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I hate how they officiate the games now but if teams would stop fouling it would become a free flowing much more enjoyable game to watch. Teams/players just choose to foul rather than give guys open shots though so we continue to see high foul type games or they are lazy with their defense and use their hands too much instead of moving their legs. Watch Nick Weatherspoon play defense. He is a phenomenal defender for a true freshman.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

I hate how they officiate the games now but if teams would stop fouling it would become a free flowing much more enjoyable game to watch. Teams/players just choose to foul rather than give guys open shots though so we continue to see high foul type games or they are lazy with their defense and use their hands too much instead of moving their legs. Watch Nick Weatherspoon play defense. He is a phenomenal defender for a true freshman.

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That’s one of the reasons I think that Nick is already the best player on the team. I agree about the fouling but there is this: the vast, vast majority of NCAA players will never play in even one NBA game. Most of them don’t have the talent to defend like an NBA player.

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Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

That’s one of the reasons I think that Nick is already the best player on the team.

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We don't have a best player. We have 4-5 guys that at times look to be that player but nobody has run away with the title which is fine. Kinda rather they all share in that glory at different times than have one dude clearly being the best player. It's better they share the glory than get jealous of each other.

This is an excellent basketball thread! Lot's of good points and observations.

One point I would add is that just as the "one and done" and AAU mentality have disrupted team continuity, changing the rules every year disrupts the officiating of the game. Add in that different conferences either interpret those rules and/or enforces and emphasizes them differently and you get the results we are seeing.

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Originally Posted by mstatefan91

I've noticed that the SEC seems to be called much tighter than other conferences. Probably why SC made it to the Final Four last year.. Probably why the SEC will do well in the NCAAT this year

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Excellent observation...I haven't been able to relocate the article/blog that I read last year, but the point was that the SEC was averaging 9 more fouls a game than every other D1 conference.