Coaching still matters

I know this board is more or less split on keeping Lebby. I do currently fall into the letting him go category, purely on team focus, team execution to name two. Everyone and their adopted cat on not only this board but everywhere talks about team talent. (which yes you have to have a level of talent) I posted in a thread a week or two ago that State on paper is much better than Indiana by a talent standpoint. I don't know who it was but they joked at it, if you look at 247 team composite talent State is ranked 24 and Indiana is ranked 72. Indiana is literally 48 spots from a pure and raw talent data point worse than State. That is not to mention every team they have slaughtered this year. That alone is coaching, motivation, and ability to get players that want to be better and care about the sport.

It's not just Lebby, but he is our coach so he is on the chopping block. The execution, attention to detail, focus, grit, lack of mistakes that Cignetti gets from his team is worth every penny they pay him. And the Pennie's they pay those players. We do not see that same level of coaching from Lebby. But again everyone cares about talent, that talent is still going to jump off sides, still going to hit arch on a 4th and 2 to keep Texas in the game, still not going to catch the ball well, make the tackle. Coaching has to get better, the players must care more than the tic-tok post. Or talent really doesn't matter.

It's the old adage "work beats skill when skill won't work".

I hope Lebby wakes up, I hope his coaching gets better and holds these players to a standard and not a barometer that is swayed by the wind.

While coaching does matter, if you think we have more talent than Indiana you have lost your damn mind. Recruiting rankings have always been a crapshoot even more since NIL and transfer portal.

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Originally Posted by MoreCowbell

While coaching does matter, if you think we have more talent than Indiana you have lost your damn mind. Recruiting rankings have always been a crapshoot even more since NIL and transfer portal.

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You nailed this quote " Recruiting rankings have always been a crapshoot even more since NIL and transfer portal."

What everyone misses is the most important players to bring into your program are the right ones for the program, they have to fit, they have to buy into the culture and fit how the team plays.

And an average player age of 23 years old....
And 15 RS-SR.

They also have to be held accountable for jumping offsides, dumb pass interference when the other team has 3rd and 15yrds at their own 30yrd line, personal foul penalties that give the other team first downs, actually tackling not just running into the opposing player, QB throwing the ball away to avoid sacks. Imo all these problems come from coaching. I witnessed all of these items in our games. Not so much in quality teams. Sure these items happen other teams but not multiple times a game.

IU HC has also been successful at every level and every stop as an HC, I think. We hire "On the Job Training" assistant coaches to be a HC in my 63 years of watching State football in person, first game age 8 in 1963, and my family will "celebrate" 59 years of consecutive season tickets in 2026. In my lifetime of fandom, the two of perhaps eight assistant hires, only Tyler and Mullen were successful. I do count JoMo as a failure in this group. Jury is out on Lebby, making deliberations, but may give the decision to the bailiff mid-2026 season if things don't improve in the win column. Hope we turn it around with more wins than losses and he gets a "stay". 7-18, 1-15, and looking worse in the Mayo than several regular-season games at so many levels just doesn't get it. "Let's Win Something Today", Bob Tyler.

Recruiting rankings have been a crapshoot but they do count. Saban wasn't BAMA without all the 5 stars. It counts.

The fact remains, State is sloppy and we lost three games due to sloppy play you could argue four. There must be a standard to meet instead of emotional crap like "we have a chip on our shoulder" or "state verse everybody" it's cool but it wears off. The standard remains no matter what. And from what we all have seen and voiced here, this team should be held to higher standard of Xs and Os and execution.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

And an average player age of 23 years old....
And 15 RS-SR.

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This is it 100%. However, this point makes the case for the OP. The coach didn't go out and get 5 star players. The COACH went out and got grown ass men that had played college football for 3 or 4 years already and also fit what he was trying to do. Add very good coaching to that recipe and you get great results. They are extremely well coached. Miami is way more talented than Indiana. Indiana plays extremely disciplined ball while Miami makes tons of mistakes.

Coaching is still the key. But yes, you have to have the right players. We have neither. We are going to suck next year. Terrible o line and a QB that is still trying to learn the game.

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Originally Posted by Maverick91

Recruiting rankings have been a crapshoot but they do count. Saban wasn't BAMA without all the 5 stars. It counts.

The fact remains, State is sloppy and we lost three games due to sloppy play you could argue four. There must be a standard to meet instead of emotional crap like "we have a chip on our shoulder" or "state verse everybody" it's cool but it wears off. The standard remains no matter what. And from what we all have seen and voiced here, this team should be held to higher standard of Xs and Os and execution.

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I don't totally disagree what you are saying but I will tell you this as an Ex-Coach. Execution sometimes can't happen with lack of talent, meaning some may not be smart or not capable. I have had players who just couldn't get the fundamentals. Just saying. I bet C34 understands this.

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Originally Posted by DownwardDawg

This is it 100%. However, this point makes the case for the OP. The coach didn't go out and get 5 star players. The COACH went out and got grown ass men that had played college football for 3 or 4 years already and also fit what he was trying to do. Add very good coaching to that recipe and you get great results. They are extremely well coached. Miami is way more talented than Indiana. Indiana plays extremely disciplined ball while Miami makes tons of mistakes.

Coaching is still the key. But yes, you have to have the right players. We have neither. We are going to suck next year. Terrible o line and a QB that is still trying to learn the game.

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"We are going to suck next year."

I don't think as bad as last two years. I actually believe we will be improved. Time will tell, as far as this past year, we were improved with 5 wins which doesn't mean anything to most. No doubt next year is the answer for Lebby and if he is going to survive. Unfortunately, Msu isn't like the blue collar teams that reload in a year or two in the Sec. Indiana gives me hope thou!

Are you and ms7 related? Asking for a friend*

One play tells you all you need to know about the discipline and coaching at IU. There was a play near the goal in the 1st QTR I think it was a jet sweep but the center pulled and just bulldozed the LB. Just watching the guy come around tackle reminded me of the old picture of Fuzzy Thurston on the Packer sweep.

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Originally Posted by basedog

"We are going to suck next year."

I don't think as bad as last two years. I actually believe we will be improved. Time will tell, as far as this past year, we were improved with 5 wins which doesn't mean anything to most. No doubt next year is the answer for Lebby and if he is going to survive. Unfortunately, Msu isn't like the blue collar teams that reload in a year or two in the Sec. Indiana gives me hope thou!

Are you and ms7 related? Asking for a friend*

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Lol. Nah, I don't even know ms7!!
I just know we have an absolutely pathetic o line and our O line coach is terrible. If this isn't shored up ( and I see no improvement right now), then with the schedule we have, Arnett will be Interim Coach by game 7. Boosters will force Selmon's hand. That's assuming Selmon is still here. If he's not, Lebby may not make it past the first 5 games.

We have pieces, like a good QB, receivers, and defensive backfield. But we need O line more than anything. We aren't getting any help there as of now. Hopefully that will change this week.

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Originally Posted by basedog

I don't totally disagree what you are saying but I will tell you this as an Ex-Coach. Execution sometimes can't happen with lack of talent, meaning some may not be smart or not capable. I have had players who just couldn't get the fundamentals. Just saying. I bet C34 understands this.

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Trust me I get your point. Played sports for 20 years, to me there's a difference between sport specific IQ and just raw talent.

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Originally Posted by Maverick91

Trust me I get your point. Played sports for 20 years, to me there's a difference between sport specific IQ and just raw talent.

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Good deal and I agree.

coachable players are generally more sport specific IQ

Transfer portal rankings are dumb.
LK was rated way higher than Evans or Thompson or Manning last year.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

Transfer portal rankings are dumb.
LK was rated way higher than Evans or Thompson or Manning last year.

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Didn’t LSU have the top portal class?

Their team is older than the Green Bay packers. There is also a lot of evidence of sign stealing out there but either way, Lebby is not one quarter of a coach that Cignetti is

https://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...oosiers-elite/

From the article- "Cignetti built his legend through development, bringing lesser-resourced programs to national prominence. With the investment at Indiana, the Hoosiers are a legitimate recruiting power in the making. That should scare everyone."

Older players start out as younger players at one point in time. Cignetti based on this article it seems to me actually developed a lot of their players that started their run at James Madison and brought them over with him to Indiana. And if you look at the rest of Indiana's portal class that year it's mostly players that have a similar profile to the ones we typically get. That's the advantage to hiring a veteran coach from G6 vs. a coordinator. Coordinators don't have a team of players in place to bring with them to their next job.

The year after Cignetti's first year when they went 11-2 they were able to and 3 four star portal recruits including Mendoza who won the Heisman. It was much easier for them to recruit out of the portal because at this time last year they had proof of concept. He also had a core group in place that he was able to build around and fill in gaps with the portal.

If you compare it to MSU now, right now our QB is going to be a sophomore and he won't start to hit his peak until 2027. Nonetheless, he is a player we can build around and it is very evident that is what MSU is trying to do. That's not to say we can't win in 2026 or shouldn't expect to. In fact, improvement is imperative to showing proof of concept. What we're hoping is that MSU can build a veteran team that has the ability to win 9 to 11 games every year from 2027-2029.

The other thing is we were way behind Indiana in NIL two years ago. We've also had to make that part of rebuilding our football program as well.

But once guys like KT, JJ Hill, Crosby, Lockhart, Womack, Cotton, etc. become juniors and seniors we should be very good.

The best thing for MSU right now is for Lebby to continue to improve because it's hard to get a veteran team when we're constantly changing coaches. Like Lebby or not.

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Originally Posted by DownwardDawg

Lol. Nah, I don't even know ms7!!
I just know we have an absolutely pathetic o line and our O line coach is terrible. If this isn't shored up ( and I see no improvement right now), then with the schedule we have, Arnett will be Interim Coach by game 7. Boosters will force Selmon's hand. That's assuming Selmon is still here. If he's not, Lebby may not make it past the first 5 games.

We have pieces, like a good QB, receivers, and defensive backfield. But we need O line more than anything. We aren't getting any help there as of now. Hopefully that will change this week.

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Getting our defense fixed is much more imperative than the offensive line. I'm guessing we would go with Roads or MacIntyre as an interim before we go with Arnett because of you know what happened last time.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

https://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...oosiers-elite/

From the article- "Cignetti built his legend through development, bringing lesser-resourced programs to national prominence. With the investment at Indiana, the Hoosiers are a legitimate recruiting power in the making. That should scare everyone."

Older players start out as younger players at one point in time. Cignetti based on this article it seems to me actually developed a lot of their players that started their run at James Madison and brought them over with him to Indiana. And if you look at the rest of Indiana's portal class that year it's mostly players that have a similar profile to the ones we typically get. That's the advantage to hiring a veteran coach from G6 vs. a coordinator. Coordinators don't have a team of players in place to bring with them to their next job.

The year after Cignetti's first year when they went 11-2 they were able to and 3 four star portal recruits including Mendoza who won the Heisman. It was much easier for them to recruit out of the portal because at this time last year they had proof of concept. He also had a core group in place that he was able to build around and fill in gaps with the portal.

If you compare it to MSU now, right now our QB is going to be a sophomore and he won't start to hit his peak until 2027. Nonetheless, he is a player we can build around and it is very evident that is what MSU is trying to do. That's not to say we can't win in 2026 or shouldn't expect to. In fact, improvement is imperative to showing proof of concept. What we're hoping is that MSU can build a veteran team that has the ability to win 9 to 11 games every year from 2027-2029.

The other thing is we were way behind Indiana in NIL two years ago. We've also had to make that part of rebuilding our football program as well.

But once guys like KT, JJ Hill, Crosby, Lockhart, Womack, Cotton, etc. become juniors and seniors we should be very good.

The best thing for MSU right now is for Lebby to continue to improve because it's hard to get a veteran team when we're constantly changing coaches. Like Lebby or not.

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The thing about this is we, not only MSU, have to keep them and develop them in your system. Unfort until the Transfer rules are brought back to reality this is very hard to do.

Anybody that watches Indiana play and thinks they are the 72nd most talented team in the country is ****ing dumb.

I'll take a 24 year old 3 star or a Ben Beckwith over a 19 year old 4-star every day. Indiana's starting offense has two 24's and three 23's on it. Now add 4 22's. Lot easier to be disciplined with mature players. Shit- Indiana is an XFL team almost.

Cignetti is a very good coach. They have also been extremely smart in building that roster.

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Originally Posted by parabrave

The thing about this is we, not only MSU, have to keep them and develop them in your system. Unfort until the Transfer rules are brought back to reality this is very hard to do.

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And this is where I would point to Indiana spending serious money. Otherwise why didn't their roster get ripped apart by more traditionally resourced programs after going 11-1 last season?

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

https://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...oosiers-elite/

From the article- "Cignetti built his legend through development, bringing lesser-resourced programs to national prominence. With the investment at Indiana, the Hoosiers are a legitimate recruiting power in the making. That should scare everyone."

Older players start out as younger players at one point in time. Cignetti based on this article it seems to me actually developed a lot of their players that started their run at James Madison and brought them over with him to Indiana. And if you look at the rest of Indiana's portal class that year it's mostly players that have a similar profile to the ones we typically get. That's the advantage to hiring a veteran coach from G6 vs. a coordinator. Coordinators don't have a team of players in place to bring with them to their next job.

The year after Cignetti's first year when they went 11-2 they were able to and 3 four star portal recruits including Mendoza who won the Heisman. It was much easier for them to recruit out of the portal because at this time last year they had proof of concept. He also had a core group in place that he was able to build around and fill in gaps with the portal.

If you compare it to MSU now, right now our QB is going to be a sophomore and he won't start to hit his peak until 2027. Nonetheless, he is a player we can build around and it is very evident that is what MSU is trying to do. That's not to say we can't win in 2026 or shouldn't expect to. In fact, improvement is imperative to showing proof of concept. What we're hoping is that MSU can build a veteran team that has the ability to win 9 to 11 games every year from 2027-2029.

The other thing is we were way behind Indiana in NIL two years ago. We've also had to make that part of rebuilding our football program as well.

But once guys like KT, JJ Hill, Crosby, Lockhart, Womack, Cotton, etc. become juniors and seniors we should be very good.

The best thing for MSU right now is for Lebby to continue to improve because it's hard to get a veteran team when we're constantly changing coaches. Like Lebby or not.

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This is a spot on post. I don't think Lebby is good, but we need for him to be. We need stability but we have to get much better next year. I'm not optimistic.

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Originally Posted by DownwardDawg

This is a spot on post. I don't think Lebby is good, but we need for him to be. We need stability but we have to get much better next year. I'm not optimistic.

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What do you consider the threshold for keeping Lebby?

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Originally Posted by WeWonItAll(Most)

And this is where I would point to Indiana spending serious money. Otherwise why didn't their roster get ripped apart by more traditionally resourced programs after going 11-1 last season?

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Great point. Nobody raided their roster. They also spent $2MM on a QB that worked out well.

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Originally Posted by Brobi-wan

What do you consider the threshold for keeping Lebby?

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Good question. It's year three. He needs to go 7-5 at a minimum and continue to show progress. Also his play calling and game management needs to be improved tremendously.

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Originally Posted by DownwardDawg

Good question. It's year three. He needs to go 7-5 at a minimum and continue to show progress. Also his play calling and game management needs to be improved tremendously.

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6-6 and he is back 100%....I'm not convinced he wouldnt have a chance to remain at 5-7

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Originally Posted by Coach34

6-6 and he is back 100%

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I wouldn't doubt it.

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Originally Posted by parabrave

The thing about this is we, not only MSU, have to keep them and develop them in your system. Unfort until the Transfer rules are brought back to reality this is very hard to do.

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If there is one thing MSU has done well with the portal it is keeping most of the players we want to keep. Sure we lose a Kevin Coleman or a Zavion Thomas every now and then and both to their home state schools.

But the vast majority we keep- Issac Smith, Zakari Tillman, Fluff, KT, Kelley Jones, and etc.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

6-6 and he is back 100%....I'm not convinced he wouldnt have a chance to remain at 5-7

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I don't care what Robbie and Brian say we are not firing a coach that is showing improvement every year. MSU has never fired a football coach that has improved from one year to the next.

Now maybe some boosters that matter get real impatient with Lebby at 6-6 but I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by WeWonItAll(Most)

And this is where I would point to Indiana spending serious money. Otherwise why didn't their roster get ripped apart by more traditionally resourced programs after going 11-1 last season?

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Great post. I wonder how much they truly spent to retain players. From what I see online, it was around 14 million. Which if thats true, that's not alot considering what some of the big boys paid. That could very well speak on the character of the players he recruited and developed. Maybe they trusted the system and was willing to take less money to stay with Cignetti and win.

This is just a thought. Idk how much they paid in NIL. There are alot of numbers out there. Either way it's the most impressive turnaround I've ever seen at any level of sports. Props to them

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

I don't care what Robbie and Brian say we are not firing a coach that is showing improvement every year. MSU has never fired a football coach that has improved from one year to the next.

Now maybe some boosters that matter get real impatient with Lebby at 6-6 but I doubt it.

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Exactly. Only way it happens is if football gets the equivalent to scale 8 figure donation baseball got to fire Lemon. Which would be about 20MM in football

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

If there is one thing MSU has done well with the portal it is keeping most of the players we want to keep. Sure we lose a Kevin Coleman or a Zavion Thomas every now and then and both to their home state schools.

But the vast majority we keep- Issac Smith, Zakari Tillman, Fluff, KT, Kelley Jones, and etc.

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This is true. We have been able to retain a large amount of our big time players, minus a few as you mentioned. I've actually been surprised with some of the ones we have been able keep. Figured they would jump ship if Im being honest with the way the seasons have gone.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Exactly. Only way it happens is if football gets the equivalent to scale 8 figure donation baseball got to fire Lemon. Which would be about 20MM in football

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And then they're also going to have to promise massive donations in the form of NIL as well on top of that.

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Originally Posted by Maroon Glasses

This is true. We have been able to retain a large amount of our big time players, minus a few as you mentioned. I've actually been surprised with some of the ones we have been able keep. Figured they would jump ship if Im being honest with the way the seasons have gone.

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I think MSU treats our players very well for the most part and it is home for the Mississippi guys. We pay them competitively too.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

6-6 and he is back 100%....I'm not convinced he wouldnt have a chance to remain at 5-7

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I agree with this. I don't think he's going anywhere unless he wins only 4 games and they're not competitive.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

I don't care what Robbie and Brian say we are not firing a coach that is showing improvement every year. MSU has never fired a football coach that has improved from one year to the next.

Now maybe some boosters that matter get real impatient with Lebby at 6-6 but I doubt it.

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Those two are just pissed their boy got let go for feeding them info. Unprofessional clowns.

I agree that is a big part of their beef. Before, I paid little attention to them and now I don't even listen at all.