Maybe I'm wrong but I can't help but feel our basketball team...

[maroonmania]

would have been substantially better with one additional true 3 point threat (Steele) and another big body to rebound and help inside (Lewis). Not having those 2 guys to me really puts a lower cap on what we can accomplish this season.

[smootness]

Agreed. But they were selfish, and now they're gone.

[msstate7]

Agreed. But they were selfish, and now they're gone.

Yep and we'll be better in the long run bc we didn't put up with it for a little more short term success. Those two weren't gonna put us over the hump as far as the NCAA tourney anyway...

[Political Hack]

Ray is doing things the right way... and he's a competent coach thus far. That's a pretty good mix.

If people think we'll return to the level of talent we had under Stans, they're kidding themselves. However, we won't have the egos and personality issues we had under him either. The problem with basketball these days is that highlights sell tickets. Good fundamental basketball teams that don't have star power don't sell seats until tourney time. Long term, I think attendance at the hump because of a lack of star power could be Ricky Ray's downfall despite being a good coach and being good for the program.

[Barking 13]

Ray is doing things the right way... and he's a competent coach thus far. That's a pretty good mix.

If people think we'll return to the level of talent we had under Stans, they're kidding themselves. However, we won't have the egos and personality issues we had under him either. The problem with basketball these days is that highlights sell tickets. Good fundamental basketball teams that don't have star power don't sell seats until tourney time. Long term, I think attendance at the hump because of a lack of star power could be Ricky Ray's downfall despite being a good coach and being good for the program.

If he starts winning, the stars will shine all by themselves...

[dawgs]

people come see winners. sure the national media might not care, but the hump will be consistently pretty full if we get back to winning 20+ games and competing with the kentucky's and florida's of the sec again, regardless of style or star power.

[engie]

Yep. Needs to lock up Pollard for the next class. He's basically falling into our laps.

No excuse to not be at least an NIT-level team by the end of next year...

[smootness]

Yep. Needs to lock up Pollard for the next class. He's basically falling into our laps.

No excuse to not be at least an NIT-level team by the end of next year...

Ray has said he doesn't plan to sign anyone in the spring. He may not have meant that 100%, and we do have one spot open as of now (if my count is correct), but he may be saving that spot for the 2015 class, since we'll only have one senior next year.

[TheRef]

Ray has said he doesn't plan to sign anyone in the spring. He may not have meant that 100%, and we do have one spot open as of now (if my count is correct), but he may be saving that spot for the 2015 class, since we'll only have one senior next year.

Matt Stevens said that he has no available scholly's for now.

[rabbitthedawg]

Rick Ray can't recruit in my opinion. The heads that ran off Stans are getting exactly what they deserve! A true POS of a product in the Hump!

[TheRef]

Rick Ray can't recruit in my opinion. The heads that ran off Stans are getting exactly what they deserve! A true POS of a product in the Hump!

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/131/351/eb6.jpg?1307463786

[Coach34]

Steele demanded to redshirt- so we wouldn't have had him this year no matter what happened

[Thick]

would have been substantially better with one additional true 3 point threat (Steele) and another big body to rebound and help inside (Lewis). Not having those 2 guys to me really puts a lower cap on what we can accomplish this season.

If those guys could smoke pot responsibly, they might still be here. Those guys are not completely to blame, some goes to RS for running such a loose ship.

"Old dogs, new tricks.....like oil and water, not happening"!

[Coach34]

Rick Ray can't recruit in my opinion. The heads that ran off Stans are getting exactly what they deserve! A true POS of a product in the Hump!

You can tell that after 1 recruiting class? You're a gotdamn genius Gump!!!

Especially considering the network that supported Stands no longer helps?

[smootness]

Matt Stevens said that he has no available scholly's for now.

Who am I missing:

Gavin Ware
Craig Sword
Fred Thomas
Travis Daniels
IJ Ready
Fallou Ndoye
Jacoby Davis
Andre Applewhite
Roquez Johnson
Oliver Black
Maurice Dunlap
Demetrius Houston

That's 12, so we should have one available.

[Coach34]

I thought BBall only had 12 schollys?

[maroonmania]

I thought BBall only had 12 schollys?

Nope, 13.

[mparkerfd20]

Rick Ray can't recruit in my opinion. The heads that ran off Stans are getting exactly what they deserve! A true POS of a product in the Hump!

Agreed so far. Not giving up completely yet tho.

[chef dixon]

I really think Chicken is becoming that go to guy for us. I realize he's not the best shooter but he's shooting 49% from the field this year as opposed to 40% last year. He's also down from 4 turnovers a game to 2.7... that tells me that he is adjusting well to the college game. I'm looking for big things from him, excellent ability to get to the basket.

[maroonmania]

Agreed so far. Not giving up completely yet tho.

I'm not real hopeful based on what I've seen so far either on the recruiting front. Basketball recruiting seems to be the sleaziest of all college sports. So if we aren't willing to get our hands a little dirty then we can probably just write off basketball.

[whosyourdawgy]

Wasn't Cunningham put on scholarship

[dawgs]

Wasn't Cunningham put on scholarship

usually when walk ons get a scholarship, it's with the understanding that if a 5* talent comes along next year in need of that scholarship, that they'll go back to being a walk on.

[tcdog70]

I thought BBall only had 12 schollys?

Come on Coach. You mean all the expert posting you do and you don't even know How many Schollys you get in Basketball. that pretty rudimentary.

[maroonmania]

If Ray isn't going to make room for a player he needs (Pollard or someone else) just because he may go one over the limit and heaven forbid have to cut someone loose then he doesn't want to win very badly.

[Political Hack]

Just to prove the point that basketball is a different animal from football where attendance is driven by players just as much, if not more so, than wins and losses... I give you the following.

The largest increases in attendance from 2012 to 2013 were, in order:
1) UCLA
2) NC State
3) Colorado
4) GaTech

The difference in wins/losses was:
1) UCAL +6
2) NC State 0
3) Colorado -3
4) GaTech +5

An average of +2 wins per season drove the four largest attendance increases in the nation???? That seems off... So, what could it be then????

Recruting Class Rankings
UCLA #1
NC State #4
Coloardo #19
GaTech #10

Star power puts butts in seats for basketball. If they want to sell out the hum, they have to turn it in to a highlight factory. people aren't driving four hours round trip to see zero turnovers and the thrill of a W. They're driving for the experience of the game and action on the floor. Wins and losses matter, but the players making plays put butts in seats.

[C222]

Who am I missing:

Gavin Ware
Craig Sword
Fred Thomas
Travis Daniels
IJ Ready
Fallou Ndoye
Jacoby Davis
Andre Applewhite
Roquez Johnson
Oliver Black
Maurice Dunlap
Demetrius Houston

That's 12, so we should have one available.

You are missing Bloodman. He is a JR this year.

[smootness]

Good post, Hack, and that's good info. I think you can absolutely bring people in by simply winning and playing good basketball, though.

Part of why I'm guessing the top attendance increases were correlated with abnormally good recruiting classes is that the attendance jumped immediately. Obviously it's going to take longer to get a fanbase's attention simply by winning more games. Like with State this year, we're 5-1, which is cool, but we haven't really played anybody so people still don't know what we are.

There's no way this is actually going to happen, but say we started beating legitimately good teams, like UNLV and Florida in SEC play and at one point were sitting at something like 16-3...I guarantee you then the fans would start showing up. But since it took longer, your overall attendance numbers for the year won't be improved by as much as a program that had people show up from day one because they said, 'Look at all these studs we have!'

I would bet Colorado saw their attendance dip a little at the end of the year last year when fans started to realize the recruits weren't translating to immediate wins.

I think fans would still rather see some no-names win a bunch than a bunch of 'stars' lose.

[Political Hack]

I can agree with that.

winning is a must to get butts in seats, but I think having star players is also a must and, as shown, can actually have a quicker effect. If Ray signs Malik, I can guarantee you the students show up in large numbers immediately... more so than if we have a 20-win season next year.

[Coach34]

Come on Coach. You mean all the expert posting you do and you don't even know How many Schollys you get in Basketball. that pretty rudimentary.

12? 13? What's the ****ing difference?

Has nothing to do with me posting about our ability to work the ball Hi-Lo to get a good shot or anything like that.

[Coach34]

If Ray isn't going to make room for a player he needs (Pollard or someone else) just because he may go one over the limit and heaven forbid have to cut someone loose then he doesn't want to win very badly.

Well, he can't go over the limit- so he would have to cut someone

[smootness]

You are missing Bloodman. He is a JR this year.

Yup, thanks. We are at the limit, would have to have some attrition.

[smootness]

I can agree with that.

winning is a must to get butts in seats, but I think having star players is also a must and, as shown, can actually have a quicker effect. If Ray signs Malik, I can guarantee you the students show up in large numbers immediately... more so than if we have a 20-win season next year.

There's no doubt that signing studs jump-starts the process, and getting Malik would be massive. But the reason they're showing up is still because they're expecting wins to follow. You would get more people to attend if you have one huge stud and win 12 games than if you win 12 games with no-names, but I still think you'll get more people to show up for a 25-win team with no studs than you will a 12-win team with a stud.

[tcdog70]

12? 13? What's the ****ing difference?

Has nothing to do with me posting about our ability to work the ball Hi-Lo to get a good shot or anything like that.

the difference is -1 player, in basketball that is huge--ie: Pollard.it just seemed odd that the Godfather of ED doesn't even know how many BB players you can have on Scholly. What else don't you know--stay tuned.

[dawgs]

Just to prove the point that basketball is a different animal from football where attendance is driven by players just as much, if not more so, than wins and losses... I give you the following.

The largest increases in attendance from 2012 to 2013 were, in order:
1) UCLA
2) NC State
3) Colorado
4) GaTech

The difference in wins/losses was:
1) UCAL +6
2) NC State 0
3) Colorado -3
4) GaTech +5

An average of +2 wins per season drove the four largest attendance increases in the nation???? That seems off... So, what could it be then????

Recruting Class Rankings
UCLA #1
NC State #4
Coloardo #19
GaTech #10

Star power puts butts in seats for basketball. If they want to sell out the hum, they have to turn it in to a highlight factory. people aren't driving four hours round trip to see zero turnovers and the thrill of a W. They're driving for the experience of the game and action on the floor. Wins and losses matter, but the players making plays put butts in seats.

do you mean the 2011-2012 season to the 2012-2013 season? i'm assuming you do.

i'm not a huge follower of CBB anymore, so maybe you'll pick this apart, but here goes:

1) wasn't pauley pavilion under renovation in 2011-2012 so ucla was playing off campus? i'd say that combined with a down season in 2011-2012 was responsible for the majority of that swing.

edit: yep, it was being renovated.

"After Pauley's closure for renovation, the 2011-12 Bruins men's basketball team played their home games off-campus at the Los Angeles Memorial Sports Arena and the Honda Center. Women's basketball and other Pauley Pavilion teams played at the on-campus John Wooden Center."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauley_Pavilion#Renovation

2) wasn't nc st very highly ranked heading into the 2012-2013 season after a tourney run in 2011-2012? like preseason top 10? they ended up underachieving, but i'd say that the big preseason ranking brought the crowds through the doors for the early season games, and of course they have pretty good attendance for all the ACC games.

edit: yep. preseason #6 and coming off a sweet 16 run and returning 4 starters.

"Entering the 2012-13 season, expectations ran high for Gottfried's second season at the helm as head coach for the NC State Wolfpack. The Wolfpack returned four starters from its 2012 Sweet Sixteen squad and were joined by a trio of talented freshman, each of whom were selected as McDonald's All Americans. As a result, the NC State men’s basketball team started the 2012-13 season as the sixth-ranked team in the Associated Press preseason poll. It was the Wolfpack’s second-highest preseason ranking in program history. Additionally, NC State was voted as preseason favorite to win the ACC title in the conference’s annual media survey and the inaugural league coaches’ poll. Ultimately, the 2012-13 NC State Wolfpack did not live up to media expectations. 24-11 overall (11-7 ACC), the Wolfpack finished tied for fourth in the ACC regular season standings and as a #8 seed lost its first game in the second round of the 2013 NCAA tournament."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NC_State_Wolfpack_men's_basketball#Mark_Gottfried_ era_.282011.E2.80.93Current.29

3) wasn't colorado coming off a good season in 2011-2012, i think their 1st ncaa tourney in years? i'd say that got a lot more butts in the seats in the early part of the 2012-2013 season.

edit: yep. won the 2012 pac 12 tourney and made a sweet 16 run.

"The Buffs won their first conference tournament championship in 2012, their first year in the Pac-12 conference. Led by tournament MVP Carlon Brown, the 6th seeded Buffs won four games in four days to bring the championship back to Boulder and earn an invitation to the 2012 NCAA Tournament where they would go on to beat UNLV in the second round before losing to Baylor in the third round."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Buffaloes_men's_basketball#2012_Pac-12_Tournament_champions

not really sure on the GT one, but they also improved by 5 Ws, so that probably played a factor.

so i think 3 of the 4 are easily explainable for many reasons not having anything to do with star power. 2 of them were coming off their most successful seasons in years and expectations were high. a 3rd one spent the year playing miles away from campus due to renovations and improved their Ws by 6 from 2011-2012 to 2012-2013. seems like Ws are what puts butts in the seats, it's just that you usually see the bump the following season because everyone is hyped up and more people show up for the non-conference schedule. when you have an unexpectedly good year, you don't really know it's coming until january or february, and by then the it's too late to pull up the low attendance numbers from the non-conference schedule.

[engie]

If we don't make a spot for Pollard -- who is basically falling into our laps at this point -- I will seriously question Ray's ability to have long-term success here.

This is open and shut. You go get Pollard -- and there are 7-8 expendable scholarships on our team right now when you've got a talent like that basically beating the door down.

For all of his faults, this is something Stansbury handled very, very well...

[Political Hack]

do you mean the 2011-2012 season to the 2012-2013 season? i'm assuming you do.

i'm not a huge follower of CBB anymore, so maybe you'll pick this apart, but here goes:

1) wasn't pauley pavilion under renovation in 2011-2012 so ucla was playing off campus? i'd say that combined with a down season in 2011-2012 was responsible for the majority of that swing.

edit: yep, it was being renovated.

"After Pauley's closure for renovation, the 2011-12 Bruins men's basketball team played their home games off-campus at the Los Angeles Memorial Sports Arena and the Honda Center. Women's basketball and other Pauley Pavilion teams played at the on-campus John Wooden Center."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauley_Pavilion#Renovation

2) wasn't nc st very highly ranked heading into the 2012-2013 season after a tourney run in 2011-2012? like preseason top 10? they ended up underachieving, but i'd say that the big preseason ranking brought the crowds through the doors for the early season games, and of course they have pretty good attendance for all the ACC games.

edit: yep. preseason #6 and coming off a sweet 16 run and returning 4 starters.

"Entering the 2012-13 season, expectations ran high for Gottfried's second season at the helm as head coach for the NC State Wolfpack. The Wolfpack returned four starters from its 2012 Sweet Sixteen squad and were joined by a trio of talented freshman, each of whom were selected as McDonald's All Americans. As a result, the NC State men’s basketball team started the 2012-13 season as the sixth-ranked team in the Associated Press preseason poll. It was the Wolfpack’s second-highest preseason ranking in program history. Additionally, NC State was voted as preseason favorite to win the ACC title in the conference’s annual media survey and the inaugural league coaches’ poll. Ultimately, the 2012-13 NC State Wolfpack did not live up to media expectations. 24-11 overall (11-7 ACC), the Wolfpack finished tied for fourth in the ACC regular season standings and as a #8 seed lost its first game in the second round of the 2013 NCAA tournament."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NC_State_Wolfpack_men's_basketball#Mark_Gottfried_ era_.282011.E2.80.93Current.29

3) wasn't colorado coming off a good season in 2011-2012, i think their 1st ncaa tourney in years? i'd say that got a lot more butts in the seats in the early part of the 2012-2013 season.

edit: yep. won the 2012 pac 12 tourney and made a sweet 16 run.

"The Buffs won their first conference tournament championship in 2012, their first year in the Pac-12 conference. Led by tournament MVP Carlon Brown, the 6th seeded Buffs won four games in four days to bring the championship back to Boulder and earn an invitation to the 2012 NCAA Tournament where they would go on to beat UNLV in the second round before losing to Baylor in the third round."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Buffaloes_men's_basketball#2012_Pac-12_Tournament_champions

not really sure on the GT one, but they also improved by 5 Ws, so that probably played a factor.

so i think 3 of the 4 are easily explainable for many reasons not having anything to do with star power. 2 of them were coming off their most successful seasons in years and expectations were high. a 3rd one spent the year playing miles away from campus due to renovations and improved their Ws by 6 from 2011-2012 to 2012-2013. seems like Ws are what puts butts in the seats, it's just that you usually see the bump the following season because everyone is hyped up and more people show up for the non-conference schedule. when you have an unexpectedly good year, you don't really know it's coming until january or february, and by then the it's too late to pull up the low attendance numbers from the non-conference schedule.

That sort of still proves the point that wins isn't the major driving factor season to season. with an average of +2 wins it would seem that the factors you mentioned and the recruiting classes are what put butts in seats... the +2 wins surely didn't. In short, I think it's somewhere in the middle. "Expectations" sell tickets though. Not wins. Wins will just keep them coming.

[Coach34]

the difference is -1 player, in basketball that is huge--ie: Pollard.it just seemed odd that the Godfather of ED doesn't even know how many BB players you can have on Scholly. What else don't you know--stay tuned.

ok chief. I'll take the e-cred loss on this one.

[Coach34]

If we don't make a spot for Pollard -- who is basically falling into our laps at this point -- I will seriously question Ray's ability to have long-term success here.

This is open and shut. You go get Pollard -- and there are 7-8 expendable scholarships on our team right now when you've got a talent like that basically beating the door down.

For all of his faults, this is something Stansbury handled very, very well...

I agree actually- if Ray likes that million dollar salary- then he needs to make the tough decision on this one.

[dawgs]

That sort of still proves the point that wins isn't the major driving factor season to season. with an average of +2 wins it would seem that the factors you mentioned and the recruiting classes are what put butts in seats... the +2 wins surely didn't. In short, I think it's somewhere in the middle. "Expectations" sell tickets though. Not wins. Wins will just keep them coming.

i disagree, the expectations come with the Ws from the previous season. colorado and nc st fans didn't know their teams would be good in 2011-2012 when they were playing nevada and unc-wilmington types in the non-conference portion of the season. by the time they got rolling later in the year, they had half a season of lackluster attendance under their belts, and they were into the conference season, where most every program sees a nice attendance boost. the following season with momentum and expectations derived from having a good season the previous year, they actually drew decent crowds to the non-conference games against nevada and unc-wilminton types, therefore they averaged more fans the following season because the crowds showed up for the crap games.

i don't know how you can try to twist those numbers into supporting your comment that stars drive attendance, not Ws when the Ws clearly led to expectations the following season which leads to bigger crowds. usually when a team is winning, the best players become stars for the program anyway. chicken or the egg. just because we signed sidney who at one point was the best HS player in his class and a 5* recruit, he didn't draw big crowds. the crowds dropped off big time because we were underachieving. if we had been winning, it would have been the Ws that brought the crowds in, not the opportunity to see sidney play. of course you can also argue that if sidney became the star he could have been, then we'd have been winning and the crowds would have been bigger, and that's true too. but i think the crowds come for the Ws. the casual fan with no ties to the program tunes in on TV for the stars.

[maroonmania]

Well I would certainly much rather have Pollard than Daniels and they basically play the same position. Also, we have one extra true PG right now. We have Ready and Bloodman and Jacoby Davis. You really only need 2 true PGs on a team. Would see to me one of either Bloodman or Davis is expendable.

[smootness]

That sort of still proves the point that wins isn't the major driving factor season to season. with an average of +2 wins it would seem that the factors you mentioned and the recruiting classes are what put butts in seats... the +2 wins surely didn't. In short, I think it's somewhere in the middle. "Expectations" sell tickets though. Not wins. Wins will just keep them coming.

Of course it's expectations, but under the logic you seem to be using, wins can't ever drive attendance unless there was no lag at all between when the wins began and when the attendance rose. So you would have to know in advance your team was going to win and have that be the reason in order for you to agree that wins drove attendance.

If a rise in attendance correlates to a period of time shortly after an uptick in winning, that would seem to support the idea that wins increase attendance. The fans feel good about wins coming their way based on past wins, not current ones.

[Political Hack]

Of course it's expectations, but under the logic you seem to be using, wins can't ever drive attendance unless there was no lag at all between when the wins began and when the attendance rose. So you would have to know in advance your team was going to win and have that be the reason in order for you to agree that wins drove attendance.

If a rise in attendance correlates to a period of time shortly after an uptick in winning, that would seem to support the idea that wins increase attendance. The fans feel good about wins coming their way based on past wins, not current ones.

I didn't say wins weren't part of the equation. I actually said the opposite. I just thinks wins alone will not drive attendance. We can win 20 a year but if we are playing a boring brand of basketball with no star power we won't be selling out the hump.

Malik will sell more tickets than a 20 win season will.

[Political Hack]

i disagree, the expectations come with the Ws from the previous season. colorado and nc st fans didn't know their teams would be good in 2011-2012 when they were playing nevada and unc-wilmington types in the non-conference portion of the season. by the time they got rolling later in the year, they had half a season of lackluster attendance under their belts, and they were into the conference season, where most every program sees a nice attendance boost. the following season with momentum and expectations derived from having a good season the previous year, they actually drew decent crowds to the non-conference games against nevada and unc-wilminton types, therefore they averaged more fans the following season because the crowds showed up for the crap games.

i don't know how you can try to twist those numbers into supporting your comment that stars drive attendance, not Ws when the Ws clearly led to expectations the following season which leads to bigger crowds. usually when a team is winning, the best players become stars for the program anyway. chicken or the egg. just because we signed sidney who at one point was the best HS player in his class and a 5* recruit, he didn't draw big crowds. the crowds dropped off big time because we were underachieving. if we had been winning, it would have been the Ws that brought the crowds in, not the opportunity to see sidney play. of course you can also argue that if sidney became the star he could have been, then we'd have been winning and the crowds would have been bigger, and that's true too. but i think the crowds come for the Ws. the casual fan with no ties to the program tunes in on TV for the stars.

well, big Sid would've actually had to play for him to draw a crowd. He was suspended for most of his career.

Again, Malik Newman would sell more early season tickets than beating Directional State College over and over.

[dawgs]

well, big Sid would've actually had to play for him to draw a crowd. He was suspended for most of his career.

Again, Malik Newman would sell more early season tickets than beating Directional State College over and over.

signing malik coming off a .500 season with minimal expectations (i.e. maybe challenging for a NIT bid his freshman season) might draw a few hundred extra fans to some early games, but if the team doesn't win, the extra butts won't be in the seats by mid way through the SEC schedule. now if we put together a NIT season and then sign malik, then yeah, expectations are going to be pretty high and the crowds will rise accordingly. but again, that's because we showed some promise, returned a nice core, and signed a 5* player. whereas bringing in a 5* player to a shit show isn't going to sell a significant more number of tickets until the Ws and improved play starts coming - no more 2 point Ws over jackson st.

[dawgs]

i think you are confusing a slight boost in early ticket sales with what would bring a sustained rise in attendance over the full course of a season to the point where we might rank among the biggest gainers in attendance from 1 season to the next. i agree a 5* talent brings in a few more fans short term, but i think over a full season and carrying over season to season, you have to back up to flashy "stars" with Ws. coincidentally, if the team is winning, it's probably because the 5* player is playing like a star.

[Political Hack]

we're agreeing more or less. I think you have to win to keep butts in seats, but you've got to get the people in the seats first. Winning 20 games isn't exciting enough to sell. attendance was dropping terribly with Stans are we were a perennial 20-win team. I think there's a lot more than winning that goes into selling tickets and having star players that are exciting to watch is one of the main draws... especially for students.

you could also argue that VCU's style of play (press defense and fast break offense) sells tickets too.

[Dawg61]

Well I would certainly much rather have Pollard than Daniels and they basically play the same position. Also, we have one extra true PG right now. We have Ready and Bloodman and Jacoby Davis. You really only need 2 true PGs on a team. Would see to me one of either Bloodman or Davis is expendable.

Daniels is taking up Pollard's spot. I'd use Bloodman and Ndoye's spots for two others though. Like the 7'1 guy in Texas Juco leading the nation for the 2nd year in a row in blocks and a deadly 3-point shooter with the other.

[WinningIsRelentless]

Ray is doing things the right way... and he's a competent coach thus far. That's a pretty good mix.

If people think we'll return to the level of talent we had under Stans, they're kidding themselves. However, we won't have the egos and personality issues we had under him either. The problem with basketball these days is that highlights sell tickets. Good fundamental basketball teams that don't have star power don't sell seats until tourney time. Long term, I think attendance at the hump because of a lack of star power could be Ricky Ray's downfall despite being a good coach and being good for the program.
Reminds me a lot of what was being said about Croom year two. The problem in this is they feel no sense of urgency to win quick because they are "cleaning up the program". In any business you only have x number of years to do that and you better damn well know that or you will be a fired ass. So the question is how long is x number of years?

[Political Hack]

Reminds me a lot of what was being said about Croom year two. The problem in this is they feel no sense of urgency to win quick because they are "cleaning up the program". In any business you only have x number of years to do that and you better damn well know that or you will be a fired ass. So the question is how long is x number of years?

yeah... that's an important point too. In basketball you can swing things tremendously with one class. I don't think you get 4-5 years like you do in football. I think you need to be winning in 3 years minimum.

[HoopsDawg]

yeah... that's an important point too. In basketball you can swing things tremendously with one class. I don't think you get 4-5 years like you do in football. I think you need to be winning in 3 years minimum.

We were not good last year. We are not good this year. And I don't see how we will be much better next year with the 3 guys Ray has signed.

[dawgs]

we're agreeing more or less. I think you have to win to keep butts in seats, but you've got to get the people in the seats first. Winning 20 games isn't exciting enough to sell. attendance was dropping terribly with Stans are we were a perennial 20-win team. I think there's a lot more than winning that goes into selling tickets and having star players that are exciting to watch is one of the main draws... especially for students.

you could also argue that VCU's style of play (press defense and fast break offense) sells tickets too.

I think our problem was that winning 20 games and being on the ncaa bubble had gotten old to the fans who wanted to take the next step to being comfortably in the ncaa most years and making the second weekend of the tourney once a decade and a half. That and Stans' last few teams were completely unlikeable, not because of the lack of stars, but because they were selfish and undisciplined and obviously not maximizing their potential.

[Coach34]

Ray has 4 years- and a decision will be made then

[TheRef]

Ray has 4 years- and a decision will be made then

This

[engie]

Ray has 4 years- and a decision will be made then

This is how I feel as well. He has 2 free passes basically. Year 3, I expect him to be close -- and if he isn't, the seat needs to be hot in year 4.

I'm hoping it's a moot point -- and his actual coaching is encouraging to me. Recruiting is worrisome right now though... You can't miss on 2/3 of a class like he did on his first real one and have a bunch of nonqualifiers -- especially when they aren't even elite talents worthy of the risk.

Locking down Pollard or someone with similar talent for next year would go a long way toward easing my mind though...

[smootness]

Daniels is taking up Pollard's spot. I'd use Bloodman and Ndoye's spots for two others though. Like the 7'1 guy in Texas Juco leading the nation for the 2nd year in a row in blocks and a deadly 3-point shooter with the other.

I don't want to get rid of Ndoye. I think he's going to be really good.

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

This is how I feel as well. He has 2 free passes basically. Year 3, I expect him to be close -- and if he isn't, the seat needs to be hot in year 4.

I'm hoping it's a moot point -- and his actual coaching is encouraging to me. Recruiting is worrisome right now though... You can't miss on 2/3 of a class like he did on his first real one and have a bunch of nonqualifiers -- especially when they aren't even elite talents worthy of the risk.

Locking down Pollard or someone with similar talent for next year would go a long way toward easing my mind though...

If he can get this team to the NIT somehow, then his path to improving the recruiting will be a lot easier. At that point when he talks to some of the better recruits he can at least point to the current team and tell them "if we can get into postseason with that group, imagine how much better we can be with you!". Sell that playing time.

On the scholarship issue, I don't necessarily see a problem with helping one of our players find another opportunity somewhere else, but if we start cutting half the team like Dawgs61 suggests, then that isn't going to make the recruiting pitch any easier - "hey come play for me, but if I find someone I like better I'm shipping your worthless ass to Schooba Tech"

[Barking 13]

speaking of attendance, I don't think the average "fan" / student knows one player from the other, how many "stars" he has, or anything else.. If they can win, they will fill the seats...

[Political Hack]

basketball is about players guys. always has been. always will be.

do people talk about the greatness of Jordan or the Bulls? Magic and Kareem or the lakers? bird or the celtics in the 80's? the Heat or Lebron?

Hell, even in college it's all about the superstars at Duke and UK. I can gauran-damn-tee you more people can name a team's best player than they can their W/L record.

[MarketingBully01]

Exactly, he does not feel a sense of urgency to win. Another coach who started at the same time Ray did was Haase. Haase just got his first big signature win in year two at UAB with their win against UNC. Shit, even UAB had a better hire then us. Very sad. And before you say that UAB has more talent blah blah blah. He inherited a bigger shit show from an even worse head coach in Mike Davis.

[dawgs]

basketball is about players guys. always has been. always will be.

do people talk about the greatness of Jordan or the Bulls? Magic and Kareem or the lakers? bird or the celtics in the 80's? the Heat or Lebron?

Hell, even in college it's all about the superstars at Duke and UK. I can gauran-damn-tee you more people can name a team's best player than they can their W/L record.

they talk about those players because they win. just because i can't spit out an exact W/L off the top of my head doesn't negate the fact that we talk about those guys because they win. no one went out of their way to watch tracy mcgrady or talks about the lost latter half of his career to injuries because he didn't win much before he got hurt. no one went out of their way to see dominique wilkins much because he never won anything. if you win, your best players become stars. just because you sign or draft a guy that's supposed to be a star, he's not going to be a star without the Ws. he might boost the fan interest for a month or 2, but if the play on the court and the Ws don't follow, then the fans see that he's not the star he was touted to be.

[Barking 13]

basketball is about players guys. always has been. always will be.

do people talk about the greatness of Jordan or the Bulls? Magic and Kareem or the lakers? bird or the celtics in the 80's? the Heat or Lebron?

Hell, even in college it's all about the superstars at Duke and UK. I can gauran-damn-tee you more people can name a team's best player than they can their W/L record.

I see your point, but what I'm saying is, the AVERAGE seat filler won't even know anything but we are (supposedly) good and should beat the opponent, and this is a cool atmosphere... same with football... chicks follow dudes, and dudes follow chicks, just because they are going to the game.... same thing when they leave at halftime, etc. The recognizeable names are just because they are hearing the ones in the know repeat them. Now you and I would know Chicken from Ware, but most wouldn't know them from Sidney and if he was even still on the team or not.. catch my drift?

[Raytoraid83]

Exactly, he does not feel a sense of urgency to win. Another coach who started at the same time Ray did was Haase. Haase just got his first big signature win in year two at UAB with their win against UNC. Shit, even UAB had a better hire then us. Very sad. And before you say that UAB has more talent blah blah blah. He inherited a bigger shit show from an even worse head coach in Mike Davis.

^^^^

[Coach34]

Exactly, he does not feel a sense of urgency to win. Another coach who started at the same time Ray did was Haase. Haase just got his first big signature win in year two at UAB with their win against UNC. Shit, even UAB had a better hire then us. Very sad. And before you say that UAB has more talent blah blah blah. He inherited a bigger shit show from an even worse head coach in Mike Davis.

I just don't understand these types of comments. People said the same stupid shit about Mullen.

Ray feels the same pressure Coach K does to win. And as a coach and competitor, Ray wants to win every ****ing game he plays. But what he doesn't feel is that he has "to win at any cost". Our Administration saw what that mentality did to the previous regime and doesn't want to make those mistakes again

[MarketingBully01]

I didn't. Mullen to me was an exciting hire. He was basically mentored by at that time a coach who had won two national championships and excelled everywhere he went. The Mullen hire would be the equivelant of Haase. In fact, it is a mirror image of if we had hired Haase. The Ray hire is NOT close at all to the Mullen hire. Let's at least agree to that. Your hate for Stansbury has completely blinded you to what that hire was comparable to...

[Coach34]

I'm not talking about the hire- Ray was a nobody. Mullen was one of the top OC's in the nation

I'm talking about the pressure that Ray feels to win. He feels it- he wants to win just like the rest of us. His name is one the line.

[smootness]

I just don't understand these types of comments. People said the same stupid shit about Mullen.

Ray feels the same pressure Coach K does to win. And as a coach and competitor, Ray wants to win every ****ing game he plays. But what he doesn't feel is that he has "to win at any cost". Our Administration saw what that mentality did to the previous regime and doesn't want to make those mistakes again

Thank you. He not only wants to win now, he also wants to win in the future and be able to sustain it. You don't do that by taking a chance on every kid just because they have some basketball talent. And you don't do that by letting kids slide when they mess up because they can help you on the court right now.

Real life isn't a video game. There are other factors to weigh besides simply, how well does this kid shoot, and can that guy rebound?

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

I didn't. Mullen to me was an exciting hire. He was basically mentored by at that time a coach who had won two national championships and excelled everywhere he went. The Mullen hire would be the equivelant of Haase. In fact, it is a mirror image of if we had hired Haase. The Ray hire is NOT close at all to the Mullen hire. Let's at least agree to that. Your hate for Stansbury has completely blinded you to what that hire was comparable to...

Why are we still talking about the hire? It's over, Ray was hired and is the coach. Get over it. The fact that Ray was not who you wanted us to hire as the coach has nothing to do with whether he feels pressure to win, wants to win, can win, or whether he read the newspaper versus a magazine while taking his morning dump.

[tcdog70]

firing Stans suxed, hiring Ray suxed and our team sux. We will be no better in 5 years than 4 years. if Ray passes on Pollard then He is worse that I think.

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

firing Stans suxed, hiring Ray suxed and our team sux. We will be no better in 5 years than 4 years. if Ray passes on Pollard then He is worse that I think.

Ah, at least you're honest about hating on Ray just because you miss Stans.

[MarketingBully01]

I miss actually competing in basketball and being really competitive. Having a chance at the NCAA and making the NIT is better then getting beat by 50+ points on our own home floor to Vanderbilt. And judging by our horrible ability to shoot the ball, that will happen several times this year as well when we play Kentucky. We barely escaped dead last in one of the worst conferences in the country last year. Let that sink in. I think we were picked what 13 out of 14 this year? Hey but here is a positive spin on this. We got nowhere to go but up...

[engie]

I miss actually competing in basketball and being really competitive.
You and I have a very different definition of "competing".


Having a chance at the NCAA and making the NIT is better then getting beat by 50+ points on our own home floor to Vanderbilt.
The one down-year crutch...


And judging by our horrible ability to shoot the ball, that will happen several times this year as well when we play Kentucky.
We are going to win 16-18 games this year. We're a pretty damn decent squad when I.J. is ready.


We barely escaped dead last in one of the worst conferences in the country last year. Let that sink in. I think we were picked what 13 out of 14 this year? Hey but here is a positive spin on this. We got nowhere to go but up...
Ah... Yeah -- I hate it when that happens. Obviously, when a coach can't step in and have IMMEDIATE success -- he's doomed to be a failure and terrible hire. All kinds of recent examples of this around MSU right now**

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/demo/m_20131205-d14c-149kb.jpg (http://my.jetscreenshot.com/demo/20131205-d14c-149kb)
http://my.jetscreenshot.com/demo/m_20131205-tyqh-152kb.jpg (http://my.jetscreenshot.com/demo/20131205-tyqh-152kb)

[smootness]

We are going to win 16-18 games this year. We're a pretty damn decent squad

But when?


when I.J. is ready.

BOOM!

[Coach34]

I'd rather watch Ray's teams win 16-17 games playing their ass off than Stands teams winning 20 and pulling the shit they pulled.

Last season was on Stands- not Ray. I cant understand how people dont see that. Not to mention- had Stands been allowed to stay one more year- we would have been a 16-17 win team at best last year

[maroonmania]

Daniels is taking up Pollard's spot. I'd use Bloodman and Ndoye's spots for two others though. Like the 7'1 guy in Texas Juco leading the nation for the 2nd year in a row in blocks and a deadly 3-point shooter with the other.

Can someone explain to me why we are so interested in hanging onto Daniels?? The dude's JUCO stats were LESS than pedestrian and he couldn't even graduate from his JUCO on time. I mean we are talking JUCO here. If Pollard wants to come I would give him Daniels spot in a heartbeat.

[tcdog70]

Boy , halftime and Rick Ray really has these guys ready to play a pitiful ass TCU. Please someone tell me again what a great job he is doing.