Most top 25 wins in the first 3 years of any HC

[Santiago]

..at MSU.
I think it was Mike Leach.
And he took over a losing program, had one season shortened with Covid with all SEC games including Georgia, and played the egg bowl with 47 players.
During his last 2 seasons his system was mocked with nicknames because he was playing with the hand dealt to him.
He signed perhaps our most talented class of skill players this past season at QB and WR and RB as far as a group. They signed up to play in that system.

But here at MSU, we need to get back to the old days, and run the ball, and nuke what momentum we had just created. That's "MSU football".

I have just seen the most backward thinking stuff go down by leadership, boosters, and whoever had their hand in championing this instant destruction of a system. A system that was tailor made by a hall of fame HC that helped schools at outpost locations in their conferences win games and pull upsets over far more talented teams on a regular basis than we ever have here in the past. If our admin and staff did not realize, we are that outpost school in our conference and need that advantage as well.

[confucius say]

Leach was a walking upset, no doubt.

And we took him for granted. Having this group of offensive players middle of the road (5th in points and 8th in yards) in offense in the sec last season was pure wizardry.

Defensive recruiting was obviously an issue though. But that's as much on the defensive staff as leach.

[Santiago]

Leach was a walking upset, no doubt.

And we took him for granted. Having this group of offensive players middle of the road (5th in points and 8th in yards) in offense in the sec last season was pure wizardry.

Defensive recruiting was obviously an issue though. But that's as much on the defensive staff as leach.

Agree.
We really need that system here since it allows for upsets and equalize talent. Also it becomes more tolerant to OC's and HC's coming and going here. It will always self recruit QBs and WRs and fast RBs. Some may not realize it is not exactly easy these days to just wave money at a coach and his family to move to the school with the lowest SEC budget when they can soon coach in any major conference and have a better shot at the playoffs.

[Homedawg]

Leach was a walking upset, no doubt.

And we took him for granted. Having this group of offensive players middle of the road (5th in points and 8th in yards) in offense in the sec last season was pure wizardry.

Defensive recruiting was obviously an issue though. But that's as much on the defensive staff as leach.
I agree I enjoyed the upsets. Didn't enjoy losing to Memphis. Didnt enjoy having to come back agaisnt la tech. But we did win.... I liked leach. He is missed. But when we hired him everyone knew the next person was gonna have to transition and it wouldn't be easy....
Agree the defensive staff does have a part in it. But, it didn't help we had so many wr on scholarship. Takes away from other spots.

[Quaoarsking]

I agree I enjoyed the upsets. Didn't enjoy losing to Memphis. Didnt enjoy having to come back agaisnt la tech. But we did win.... I liked leach. He is missed. But when we hired him everyone knew the next person was gonna have to transition and it wouldn't be easy....
Agree the defensive staff does have a part in it. But, it didn't help we had so many wr on scholarship. Takes away from other spots.

If Leach had been our coach for 10 more years, I'm pretty confident we never would have lost a game like Memphis again. That was the last gasp of the new coach/inexperienced QB issues (and also a huge ref f-up). He really has us set for a monster decade by the end of 2022. Just heartbreaking to see his successor tear it all down for no reason beyond misplaced ego.

[Really Clark?]

If Leach had been our coach for 10 more years, I'm pretty confident we never would have lost a game like Memphis again. That was the last gasp of the new coach/inexperienced QB issues (and also a huge ref f-up). He really has us set for a monster decade by the end of 2022. Just heartbreaking to see his successor tear it all down for no reason beyond misplaced ego.

I don't have that confidence **cough** Eastern Washington **cough**.

He was good at pulling upsets no doubt about it. And I firmly believe he would have been the one to end the Bama streak. But he also had a history of having WTH games.

[SPMT]

..at MSU.
I think it was Mike Leach.
And he took over a losing program, had one season shortened with Covid with all SEC games including Georgia, and played the egg bowl with 47 players.
During his last 2 seasons his system was mocked with nicknames because he was playing with the hand dealt to him.
He signed perhaps our most talented class of skill players this past season at QB and WR and RB as far as a group. They signed up to play in that system.

But here at MSU, we need to get back to the old days, and run the ball, and nuke what momentum we had just created. That's "MSU football".

I have just seen the most backward thinking stuff go down by leadership, boosters, and whoever had their hand in championing this instant destruction of a system. A system that was tailor made by a hall of fame HC that helped schools at outpost locations in their conferences win games and pull upsets over far more talented teams on a regular basis than we ever have here in the past. If our admin and staff did not realize, we are that outpost school in our conference and need that advantage as well.

The guy who who made the nickname isn’t at smart as he thinks he is.

Clearly, Leach was a genius at winning at classically shitty schools. He did it at three of them.

[Santiago]

I agree I enjoyed the upsets. Didn't enjoy losing to Memphis. Didnt enjoy having to come back agaisnt la tech. But we did win.... I liked leach. He is missed. But when we hired him everyone knew the next person was gonna have to transition and it wouldn't be easy....
Agree the defensive staff does have a part in it. But, it didn't help we had so many wr on scholarship. Takes away from other spots.

We could have kept running the system, since we were bringing in Parson, and better skill players each season. We still can, but it will take the staff and administration to admit this season was a wrong turn.
Coach Leach, as other posts on this thread mentioned, was setting us up for a big decade of winning consistently and upsetting teams. The fact he had more upsets and running it with Will should tell us this system is good for us.

[RezDog7]

You do know we didn't fire Leach right? I mean, who were you getting to replace him?

[SPMT]

And the offensive scant, C34 keeps telling everyone Rogers isn’t good, well why in the 17 haven’t his coaching friends made the change?!

Hell, no other QB has played any meaningful snaps.

If the offense needs another QB, use him.

They don’t because there aren’t any better QBs or they aren’t as good as thought.

[Santiago]

You do know we didn't fire Leach right? I mean, who were you getting to replace him?

my post was clear on it. What our administration, staff, and supporting boosters in their ear did was completely throw it away in the first off season.
There are tons that can run a similar version. We actually had 3 on staff that could run it. Modified, yes. But all predicated on giving a level playing field against more talented teams.

[Really Clark?]

my post was clear on it. What our administration, staff, and supporting boosters in their ear did was completely throw it away in the first off season.
There are tons that can run a similar version. We actually had 3 on staff that could run it. Modified, yes. But all predicated on giving a level playing field against more talented teams.

You keep bringing up our past staff and how they could run an offense in the SEC. Why did none get other offers if they were so good? Miller is in the FCS, his only option. Spurrier is not even running it at Tulsa, he is just in the booth helping Wilson with Wilson's offense that is not AR. Drew was the only one that should get there one day, maybe soon but not right now. He needs to pick it up at WKU but I think they will.

[confucius say]

I agree I enjoyed the upsets. Didn't enjoy losing to Memphis. Didnt enjoy having to come back agaisnt la tech. But we did win.... I liked leach. He is missed. But when we hired him everyone knew the next person was gonna have to transition and it wouldn't be easy....
Agree the defensive staff does have a part in it. But, it didn't help we had so many wr on scholarship. Takes away from other spots.

Fair.
I think the messaging from the new staff could have been better regarding changing schemes and how this would be a process. I also think they messed up not getting a portal QB (or not playing the one they got).

[R2Dawg]

Leach was a walking upset, no doubt.

And we took him for granted. Having this group of offensive players middle of the road (5th in points and 8th in yards) in offense in the sec last season was pure wizardry.

Defensive recruiting was obviously an issue though. But that's as much on the defensive staff as leach.

No. Leach was HC of the team not just the O or the QB or WR which is all he was interested in. He had no interest in recruiting nasty D players and sacrificed DL talent for more WR. What you see now is a result of 3 years of neglect on D side of the ball recruiting wise.

[R2Dawg]

..at MSU.
I think it was Mike Leach.
And he took over a losing program, had one season shortened with Covid with all SEC games including Georgia, and played the egg bowl with 47 players.
During his last 2 seasons his system was mocked with nicknames because he was playing with the hand dealt to him.
He signed perhaps our most talented class of skill players this past season at QB and WR and RB as far as a group. They signed up to play in that system.

But here at MSU, we need to get back to the old days, and run the ball, and nuke what momentum we had just created. That's "MSU football".

I have just seen the most backward thinking stuff go down by leadership, boosters, and whoever had their hand in championing this instant destruction of a system. A system that was tailor made by a hall of fame HC that helped schools at outpost locations in their conferences win games and pull upsets over far more talented teams on a regular basis than we ever have here in the past. If our admin and staff did not realize, we are that outpost school in our conference and need that advantage as well.

Leach is gone and the AR too. The pure AR was 25 years old since you speak of running the ball as old. The great teams do both. We could only pass when other team played a certain D which was only half or less of the time.

Give the Leach AR crap a rest. It ain't coming back, I don't care who is coach. Some of yall are not MSU fans, you are Leach AR fans only at this point may every thread about the AR.

[preachermatt83]

I agree I enjoyed the upsets. Didn't enjoy losing to Memphis. Didnt enjoy having to come back agaisnt la tech. But we did win.... I liked leach. He is missed. But when we hired him everyone knew the next person was gonna have to transition and it wouldn't be easy....
Agree the defensive staff does have a part in it. But, it didn't help we had so many wr on scholarship. Takes away from other spots.

Washington state stayed with the air raid concept and they have done fine. Going completely away from it in a season where we are senior heavy was absolutely insane.

[preachermatt83]

This is a very good post

[Quaoarsking]

I don't have that confidence **cough** Eastern Washington **cough**.


That game happened in Year 4 when Leach took over a much, much tougher situation than Moorhead left him. In years 6-8 at Wazzu, Leach didn't lose any non-conference games other than bowls. Once Leach got any program going (which he did here in just 3 seasons), he had no more bad losses.

[Santiago]

That game happened in Year 4 when Leach took over a much, much tougher situation than Moorhead left him. In years 6-8 at Wazzu, Leach didn't lose any non-conference games other than bowls. Once Leach got any program going (which he did here in just 3 seasons), he had no more bad losses.

Great point man.
What Leach did at Wazzou, reviving that program, and what he did at Tech was incredible. Some of our fans could never comprehend what we might be building. Dang the kicker Leach inherited cost us a game or two in 2021 and we still went 7-6. Then jumped to 9-4 last year.
We talk about the seasons over 25-30 years ago as glory days. Imagine being a student in 1990 and hearing people talk about glory days from the 40's and 50's and wanting us to get back to that offense and style of play.... because "that is MSU football".

[Really Clark?]

That game happened in Year 4 when Leach took over a much, much tougher situation than Moorhead left him. In years 6-8 at Wazzu, Leach didn't lose any non-conference games other than bowls. Once Leach got any program going (which he did here in just 3 seasons), he had no more bad losses.

Well you said from this year on he wouldn't lose those type of games for the next decade. In year 3 at WSU he was 9-4, looks like he had already made the turn to me. BTW, I was giving him the first 3 years since thats all he had here. In year 3 he lost to FCS Portland St as well, in a 9-4 season. In year four he lost to Eastern Washington and Boise in back to back weeks. WSU finished 8-5 that year. It wasn't an OOC game but he lost to 4-8 UCLA in 2019 too.

He was good at upsetting teams, no doubt about. He had WTH loses as well.

[PGHBulldogBG]

Jamey Chadwell needs to be our first call if Arnett doesn?t work out. He wins everywhere he goes even when he has the worst talent in his league. He will get Liberty a better record than freeze did if he stays there. He might actually even do it this year.

[Santiago]

Jamey Chadwell needs to be our first call if Arnett doesn?t work out. He wins everywhere he goes even when he has the worst talent in his league. He will get Liberty a better record than freeze did if he stays there. He might actually even do it this year.

Arkansas fans would go for him also, right? Will the Arkansas game be the fate of Chadwell's direction next year? sort of like when Croom beat a team, that created the demand to fire that coach.

[BlackSailsDawg]

You do know we didn't fire Leach right? I mean, who were you getting to replace him?

Arbuckle, Kitty, etc etc... Keep the staff.

[Quaoarsking]

Well you said from this year on he wouldn't lose those type of games for the next decade. In year 3 at WSU he was 9-4, looks like he had already made the turn to me. BTW, I was giving him the first 3 years since thats all he had here. In year 3 he lost to FCS Portland St as well, in a 9-4 season. In year four he lost to Eastern Washington and Boise in back to back weeks. WSU finished 8-5 that year. It wasn't an OOC game but he lost to 4-8 UCLA in 2019 too.

He was good at upsetting teams, no doubt about. He had WTH loses as well.

You've got your years mixed up. He was 3-9, 6-7, 3-9 in years 1-3 at Washington State, inconsistent but improving in years 4-5, and then very good in years 6-7. Year 8 was a step back, but still no bad OOC losses or anything and still made a bowl. No "WTH losses" after week 1 of Year 5, when it all started coming together.

He got it together faster at Mississippi State, but even Moorhead was miles better than Leach's predecessor at Washington State.

[Really Clark?]

Arbuckle, Kitty, etc etc... Keep the staff.

Kittley wasn't an option. He wasn't interested at all in leaving his Alma mater for a lateral move. His next move is a HC or maybe a blue blood.

Arbuckle might have been a good choice later in his career but WSU took a gamble on someone who was coaching HS in 2020, a Quality Control guy in 2021 and was a Co-OC for 1 year in G5. It may work out for him out west but not a serious candidate for the SEC with so little time coaching in college.

Nobody on staff was qualified, period. Do want to keep track of Drew for a few years but he wasn't ready. They are down to start the season but will see how the season finishes out. Be interesting in how Helton's coaches continue to develop.

[Really Clark?]

You've got your years mixed up. He was 3-9, 6-7, 3-9 in years 1-3 at Washington State, inconsistent but improving in years 4-5, and then very good in years 6-7. Year 8 was a step back, but still no bad OOC losses or anything and still made a bowl. No "WTH losses" after week 1 of Year 5, when it all started coming together.

He got it together faster at Mississippi State, but even Moorhead was miles better than Leach's predecessor at Washington State.

You're right, I skipped a year. His WTH games were when he was 9-4 in year 4 and 8-5 in year 5. My bad

[dawgday166]

Agree.
We really need that system here since it allows for upsets and equalize talent. Also it becomes more tolerant to OC's and HC's coming and going here. It will always self recruit QBs and WRs and fast RBs. Some may not realize it is not exactly easy these days to just wave money at a coach and his family to move to the school with the lowest SEC budget when they can soon coach in any major conference and have a better shot at the playoffs.

Agree with the OP's post.

Not totally arguing the "system" aspect of what you're saying. However, what we need more tho is the mentality, the toughness, etc.

The system will be good with tweaks. It's the mentality that is hard to find. It's things like Leach Beach that are hard to find in the 2020s. Leach was a tough and old school as Saban ever was and even maybe moreso. The main difference between Leach and Saban ... Saban is a good politician and lobbyist.

Just the mindset ... would win a lot of games.

[BlackSailsDawg]

Kittley wasn't an option. He wasn't interested at all in leaving his Alma mater for a lateral move. His next move is a HC or maybe a blue blood.

Arbuckle might have been a good choice later in his career but WSU took a gamble on someone who was coaching HS in 2020, a Quality Control guy in 2021 and was a Co-OC for 1 year in G5. It may work out for him out west but not a serious candidate for the SEC with so little time coaching in college.

Nobody on staff was qualified, period. Do want to keep track of Drew for a few years but he wasn't ready. They are down to start the season but will see how the season finishes out. Be interesting in how Helton's coaches continue to develop.

I'm talking as HC

[Really Clark?]

I'm talking as HC

Gotcha. Then Kittley was the only one remotely qualified. Although I'd would have wanted another year or two if experience at TT first. None of the others were close to being qualified. Drew I want to track for next several years. He's sharp. Honestly wished Mike would had left him with the QB's but he needed to get an on the field job to rise. Completely understandable but I think Will was better working with Drew.

[Santiago]

Gotcha. Then Kittley was the only one remotely qualified. Although I'd would have wanted another year or two if experience at TT first. None of the others were close to being qualified. Drew I want to track for next several years. He's sharp. Honestly wished Mike would had left him with the QB's but he needed to get an on the field job to rise. Completely understandable but I think Will was better working with Drew.

I am a fan of Drew also. I wish our administration had given every offensive coach the opportunity to stay a year due to cirumstances, and give CO-OC to Drew and Mason Miller or someone. Let Arnett take all that time and energy he has wasted listening to the HS coach, and others and just focus on his defense, but can be the overall HC of sorts, but with some parameters for this season. It would have helped Arnett also.
Locke then stays with us most likely, and we keep stacking the QB and WR room, and let Arnett evaluate his defensive needs.

[Gypsy_RoadDawg]

Washington state stayed with the air raid concept and they have done fine. Going completely away from it in a season where we are senior heavy was absolutely insane.

Having seen what we've done so far this season, I would say your statement is 100% spot on.