My Biggest Concern for FB 2023

[Reason2succeed]

I have been watching a lot of Kevin Barbay from AppState and CMU which has left me with little to no concern about our offense.

However, what is our secondary going to look like. It?s not like they were great the last couple of years outside of the corner position. We have a new safeties coach and are replacing the entire unit basically.

I am happy that there are not a lot of returning pass first QBs we are facing but even a team like Arizona could be problematic if our secondary is sketchy.

Someone please tell me something to alleviate my fears.

[confucius say]

I'm there with you. We cause a lot of disruption behind the line, so that will help if we can continue that.

I'm not sold on our D line group either. After crumedy, nobody is proven.

[Todd4State]

Losing Forbes and Tyrus Wheat is going to be something hard for us to replace. John Lewis looks like he has potential though to be a play maker.

[RiverCityDawg]

I have been watching a lot of Kevin Barbay from AppState and CMU which has left me with little to no concern about our offense.

However, what is our secondary going to look like. It?s not like they were great the last couple of years outside of the corner position. We have a new safeties coach and are replacing the entire unit basically.

I am happy that there are not a lot of returning pass first QBs we are facing but even a team like Arizona could be problematic if our secondary is sketchy.

Someone please tell me something to alleviate my fears.

I think the concerns are fair. What I keep going back to is how most of us thought our defense was going to be crap in 2020 and Arnett got the very best out of them, exceeding most people's expectations by a mile. I just sort of feel like Arnett & Brock are going to figure it out.

[confucius say]

I think the concerns are fair. What I keep going back to is how most of us thought our defense was going to be crap in 2020 and Arnett got the very best out of them, exceeding most people's expectations by a mile. I just sort of feel like Arnett & Brock are going to figure it out.

I think they will be solid. But arnett and Brock haven't had them at a high level in 3 years. I know there are multiple reasons for that, but we've been a middle of the pack sec defense

[Lord McBuckethead]

Losing Forbes and Tyrus Wheat is going to be something hard for us to replace. John Lewis looks like he has potential though to be a play maker.

We will have something to replace Wheat. Wish he would have stayed one more year. But we will have something.

[Reason2succeed]

Can anyone even give a projected starting lineup for the secondary? All I know is DCam at one corner.

[Cowbell]

Just based on the spring game alone, there is no doubt this is gonna be one of the fastest defenses we have had in a long time. We've added some speed where we needed to. I'm not really that concerned.

[CaptainObvious]

The back end of the defense will go as far as our pass rush takes them. If we allow QB?s 4 seconds on every play from snap to throw, it will be ugly. If the corners play 10 yards off and can?t press, the LBs will have to help make tackles 6 yards down field. Just never have liked 3 upfront pushing against 5 linemen. It frees up the opposing Tight End to tie up a LB and a RB to get out on another LB in space. I think a base 4-3-4 works if you have speed rushers on both sides when the offense lines up a tight end. Eliminate the double team if they TE goes out. If he stays in the o can double team two guys and still have a lineman to pick up the blitz.

I understand the principle of the 3-3-5 of disguising the coverage and having the QB have to make multiple reads. But then if he has 4-5-6 seconds, he is going to find the open man. A weak pass rush against a team playing a TE also gives him time to block then leak out into the flat or run into an open space midfield.

All that to say, I expect State to go 15-0 just like I do at he start of every season. 😎

[Coach34]

adding Rogers from Holmes County/Miami is going to help with depth. He was a helluva 9th grader starting in 5A and did a great job. I worry about his 2 knee surgeries- however as we saw in the Spring Game- he is still the ball hawk he has always been. Still a R/Fr and will get better- the guy is just a football player with great instincts. He will help on the back end

Also hope Ellington is now ready to play more snaps consistently

[Cowbell]

The back end of the defense will go as far as our pass rush takes them. If we allow QB?s 4 seconds on every play from snap to throw, it will be ugly. If the corners play 10 yards off and can?t press, the LBs will have to help make tackles 6 yards down field. Just never have liked 3 upfront pushing against 5 linemen. It frees up the opposing Tight End to tie up a LB and a RB to get out on another LB in space. I think a base 4-3-4 works if you have speed rushers on both sides when the offense lines up a tight end. Eliminate the double team if they TE goes out. If he stays in the o can double team two guys and still have a lineman to pick up the blitz.

I understand the principle of the 3-3-5 of disguising the coverage and having the QB have to make multiple reads. But then if he has 4-5-6 seconds, he is going to find the open man. A weak pass rush against a team playing a TE also gives him time to block then leak out into the flat or run into an open space midfield.

All that to say, I expect State to go 15-0 just like I do at he start of every season. 😎

Word on the street is we are gonna play more snaps with 4 down linemen this year. Apparently we plan to be more aggressive up front on defense since we are no longer air raid on offense.

[sack07]

The back end of the defense will go as far as our pass rush takes them. If we allow QB?s 4 seconds on every play from snap to throw, it will be ugly. If the corners play 10 yards off and can?t press, the LBs will have to help make tackles 6 yards down field. Just never have liked 3 upfront pushing against 5 linemen. It frees up the opposing Tight End to tie up a LB and a RB to get out on another LB in space. I think a base 4-3-4 works if you have speed rushers on both sides when the offense lines up a tight end. Eliminate the double team if they TE goes out. If he stays in the o can double team two guys and still have a lineman to pick up the blitz.

I understand the principle of the 3-3-5 of disguising the coverage and having the QB have to make multiple reads. But then if he has 4-5-6 seconds, he is going to find the open man. A weak pass rush against a team playing a TE also gives him time to block then leak out into the flat or run into an open space midfield.

All that to say, I expect State to go 15-0 just like I do at he start of every season. 😎

How many times have we only rushed 3 in Arnett?s tenure? If teams are max protecting and leaving RBs and TEs in, they?re only getting 3 out in the routes.

[BigDawg81]

Never worried about defense. If history was ever on our side, it is on defense. If you take away 2016 with Peter Sirmon, when has State been bad at defense?

[KOdawg1]

Can anyone even give a projected starting lineup for the secondary? All I know is DCam at one corner.

CB- Decam
CB- Probably Furdge rn, but it'll be a battle between him, Decarlos Nicholson, Khaumari Rogers, and Raydar Jones

FS- Marcus Banks
SS- Corey Ellington or JaKobi Albert (transfer from UK)
Dawg- Shawn Preston

[Cooterpoot]

Only concern for me is how long it takes for the offense to get rolling. The OL is an issue.

[confucius say]

Only concern for me is how long it takes for the offense to get rolling. The OL is an issue.

I've been saying the same but keep getting told these guys run blocked in high school. We will see.

[Reason2succeed]

I've been saying the same but keep getting told these guys run blocked in high school. We will see.

I?m not concerned about their run blocking. Look at how we they blocked for the run with only 5 OL. Look at the Texas A&M game especially. When asked to run block they had no problems. Now add a TE to that and maybe even an H-Back on some plays.

[Reason2succeed]

CB- Decam
CB- Probably Furdge rn, but it'll be a battle between him, Decarlos Nicholson, Khaumari Rogers, and Raydar Jones

FS- Marcus Banks
SS- Corey Ellington or JaKobi Albert (transfer from UK)
Dawg- Shawn Preston

Thanks. Where are they projecting Isaac Smith to play and do they think he will be healthy by fall camp?

[KOdawg1]

Thanks. Where are they projecting Isaac Smith to play and do they think he will be healthy by fall camp?

He was recruited as a Dawg safety and had he been able to participate in the spring, he would've been able to push for playing time. I think he'll be healthy by fall camp but idk how realistic expectations will be

[Todd4State]

I?m not concerned about their run blocking. Look at how we they blocked for the run with only 5 OL. Look at the Texas A&M game especially. When asked to run block they had no problems. Now add a TE to that and maybe even an H-Back on some plays.

They were basically blocking five on three or four the vast majority of the time plus we spread the defenders out with our formation.

That's not going to happen this year when we line up in a two tight end set and our OC is telling the world we want to establish the run. Unless we line up like that in an obvious pass situation or something.

[Todd4State]

I've been saying the same but keep getting told these guys run blocked in high school. We will see.

Me too!

[confucius say]

I?m not concerned about their run blocking. Look at how we they blocked for the run with only 5 OL. Look at the Texas A&M game especially. When asked to run block they had no problems. Now add a TE to that and maybe even an H-Back on some plays.

Were we running against a 5 man box?

[Coach34]

They were basically blocking five on three or four the vast majority of the time plus we spread the defenders out with our formation.

That's not going to happen this year when we line up in a two tight end set and our OC is telling the world we want to establish the run. Unless we line up like that in an obvious pass situation or something.

We won’t be in a 2 TE set very often. We don’t have enough TE’s

[CaptainObvious]

Is Cooper staying on Offense or moving back to Defense?

[Todd4State]

Is Cooper staying on Offense or moving back to Defense?

I think he's moving back to defense.

[Todd4State]

We won’t be in a 2 TE set very often. We don’t have enough TE’s

We were in them a lot during the spring game. And that was before we have Goede and Spivey coming in. Then we have Harmon and Clayton.

[CaptainObvious]

Thanks. Where are they projecting Isaac Smith to play and do they think he will be healthy by fall camp?

I was just reading about this guy. He had 25 total interceptions in High School. 2 as Fr, 6 as a So, 8 as a Jr., 9 as a Sr. Does he not have the speed to play corner? That?s some 4 Star numbers for sure!

[Todd4State]

I was just reading about this guy. He had 25 total interceptions in High School. 2 as Fr, 6 as a So, 8 as a Jr., 9 as a Sr. Does he not have the speed to play corner? That?s some 4 Star numbers for sure!

He's a safety all the way. And he's going to be a really good one.

[speedy1972]

He's a safety all the way. And he's going to be a really good one.

Yes, I agree 100%. I've watched this kid play many times in person and he's out there playing chess when everyone else is playing checkers. Not only was he the best athlete on the field in HS, he was always the smartest player on the field. He goes up and gets the football and can score when he gets it. Also was the punter on a top 3 or 4 team in 4A. Barring injury, I could see him being an All-American before his time is over in Starkville.

[speedy1972]

Made the president's list in his first semester at MSU as well.

[Cooterpoot]

We lack quality TEs. We'll see some 2 TE, but I agree with C34. It won't be as much as some believe.

[confucius say]

We won’t be in a 2 TE set very often. We don’t have enough TE’s

I expect a good bit of 11 personnel.

[Reason2succeed]

Having a running game isn?t rocket science. Numbers usually win. Block the guy in front of you that could make the tackle. Double team the star player.

Like I said before I am much more worried about all of these new starters in the secondary knowing their assignments and avoiding coverage busts.

To go along with this I am interested to see if transfers are more likely to do well when they come up from a lower level of competition with a lot of production or from a higher level of competition but without the on field experience. My guess is the latter.

[RockyDog]

What is Arizona supposed to look like this year? I know they built a portal team last year and De Laura put up big numbers but seemed to struggle against teams with a pulse on defense. Hopefully our defense and a cross country road trip will help stifle them. We sure don't need a shootout in a must win OOC game especially so early in the season.

[Captain Falcon]

What is Arizona supposed to look like this year? I know they built a portal team last year and De Laura put up big numbers but seemed to struggle against teams with a pulse on defense. Hopefully our defense and a cross country road trip will help stifle them. We sure don't need a shootout in a must win OOC game especially so early in the season.

They are improving as a program but I think we will be fine in a night game at home. I am expecting something similar to when NC State came to town two years ago. Talked myself into being worried going in, then we won comfortably.

[RockyDog]

They are improving as a program but I think we will be fine in a night game at home. I am expecting something similar to when NC State came to town two years ago. Talked myself into being worried going in, then we won comfortably.

Thanks to Tulu's kick return and a bend but don't break defense. The offense was terrible. We don't need a repeat of that.

[Big4Dawg]

What is Arizona supposed to look like this year? I know they built a portal team last year and De Laura put up big numbers but seemed to struggle against teams with a pulse on defense. Hopefully our defense and a cross country road trip will help stifle them. We sure don't need a shootout in a must win OOC game especially so early in the season.

Their o/u team wins is 5

[coachnorm]

What I am looking forward to is an offense that is not scheme compliant in its ABSOLUTE form. Every football offense has some kind of scheme but SCHEME cannot negate match-up principles shortcomings. Over the last couple seasons, there was too much step counting and attempted geometric perfection. Without making this statement into a coaching clinic, why do some receivers cut on their inside foot? The answer is the receiver is executing a technique of breaking the cushion and manipulating the defender by forcing his hips to flip. This is not step counting. When the hips flip, the receiver immediately makes his cut regardless if it is the preferred or not preferred foot. The receiver can not give the defender make up time to get back into his technique.

None of this upper tiered technique has been executed with us. We just get distracted with scheme compliance. Remember, any high school coordinator worth his weight in salt, has attended the requisite clinics or had face to face exposure with college or NFL coaches to understand schemes. Scheme execution is just a break-even proposition at best. Big games are won by managing match-ups by coaches that have learned how to do so. BTW many new high school football coaches are former NFL guys that understand match-up and they are embarrassing incumbent scheme scrubs coaching their thing for decades.

I believe that this scheme bullshit of late will get upgraded with someone who understands match-ups. BTW, when a QB throws on faith that his receiver will execute the requisite technique to get positioned to win contested catches, pass blocking shortcoming all of a sudden become fewer because someone is not holding on to the ball all confused.

[BuckyIsAB****]

We won’t be in a 2 TE set very often. We don’t have enough TE’s

Maybe but we have 2 that we have some really high expectations for

[BuckyIsAB****]

What I am looking forward to is an offense that is not scheme compliant in its ABSOLUTE form. Every football offense has some kind of scheme but SCHEME cannot negate match-up principles shortcomings. Over the last couple seasons, there was too much step counting and attempted geometric perfection. Without making this statement into a coaching clinic, why do some receivers cut on their inside foot? The answer is the receiver is executing a technique of breaking the cushion and manipulating the defender by forcing his hips to flip. This is not step counting. When the hips flip, the receiver immediately makes his cut regardless if it is the preferred or not preferred foot. The receiver can not give the defender make up time to get back into his technique.

None of this upper tiered technique has been executed with us. We just get distracted with scheme compliance. Remember, any high school coordinator worth his weight in salt, has attended the requisite clinics or had face to face exposure with college or NFL coaches to understand schemes. Scheme execution is just a break-even proposition at best. Big games are won by managing match-ups by coaches that have learned how to do so. BTW many new high school football coaches are former NFL guys that understand match-up and they are embarrassing incumbent scheme scrubs coaching their thing for decades.

I believe that this scheme bullshit of late will get upgraded with someone who understands match-ups. BTW, when a QB throws on faith that his receiver will execute the requisite technique to get positioned to win contested catches, pass blocking shortcoming all of a sudden become fewer because someone is not holding on to the ball all confused.

Man that is a huge word salad but I can tell you that what foot you cut off of is based on the route. The problem for State wasnt the routes it was the folks running them

[MrCoachKlein]

The back end of the defense will go as far as our pass rush takes them. If we allow QB?s 4 seconds on every play from snap to throw, it will be ugly. If the corners play 10 yards off and can?t press, the LBs will have to help make tackles 6 yards down field. Just never have liked 3 upfront pushing against 5 linemen. It frees up the opposing Tight End to tie up a LB and a RB to get out on another LB in space. I think a base 4-3-4 works if you have speed rushers on both sides when the offense lines up a tight end. Eliminate the double team if they TE goes out. If he stays in the o can double team two guys and still have a lineman to pick up the blitz.

I understand the principle of the 3-3-5 of disguising the coverage and having the QB have to make multiple reads. But then if he has 4-5-6 seconds, he is going to find the open man. A weak pass rush against a team playing a TE also gives him time to block then leak out into the flat or run into an open space midfield.

All that to say, I expect State to go 15-0 just like I do at he start of every season. 😎

4-3 /3-4 doesn't really matter anymore. Most sets are nickel so it'd be a 4-2-5 or 2-4-5 anyway. 3-3-5 just let's you bring the extra pass rusher from different spots and either keep a safety centered for breaking up quick passes or playing run and going around a pulling guard or what we do and play basically a heavy dime with 4 'cbs' in quarter's using 2 safeties as cbs

[msu15]

Man that is a huge word salad but I can tell you that what foot you cut off of is based on the route. The problem for State wasnt the routes it was the folks running them

Ding Ding Ding, even doubly so when you had multiple guys playing out of position.

[coachnorm]

Man that is a huge word salad but I can tell you that what foot you cut off of is based on the route. The problem for State wasnt the routes it was the folks running them

Maybe the problem with State was not the routes but the folks coaching them. If receivers make cuts before they eat up the cushion the defenders just plays fundamentally sound technique. That is why leverage is profound on what foot you cut off of. The NFL guys understand this because if they just count steps and run geometry, they do not get paid. Sometimes things time out as drawn up but sometimes things do not. That is why leverage (Position Advantage) is emphasized in the passing game over step counting.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Maybe the problem with State was not the routes but the folks coaching them. If receivers make cuts before they eat up the cushion the defenders just plays fundamentally sound technique. That is why leverage is profound on what foot you cut off of. The NFL guys understand this because if they just count steps and run geometry, they do not get paid. Sometimes things time out as drawn up but sometimes things do not. That is why leverage (Position Advantage) is emphasized in the passing game over step counting.

Well if you know more about the passing game than Mike Leach then you should be the coordinator.

2 of our starting WRs played with little to no effort on the majority of snaps a game. Even more evident vs teams that play physical. Now why we didnt put someone else out there for them is a reasonable question

[TrapGame]

Having a running game isn?t rocket science.

Evidently to some folks round here it's as hard as learning quantum physics. None of Barbay's OLs have been soft. They ran the ball down A&M's throat. App State's OL was more physical than A&M's 4 and 5 star DL.

If we look like the Key Stone cops against SELA then I'll be concerned, but if we handle SELA the way we should then I'll feel better about facing more talented defenses.

[coachnorm]

Well if you know more about the passing game than Mike Leach then you should be the coordinator.

2 of our starting WRs played with little to no effort on the majority of snaps a game. Even more evident vs teams that play physical. Now why we didnt put someone else out there for them is a reasonable question

Mike Leach was a cofounder of the (LEGACY) Air Raid Scheme and not the passing game used by most college or NFL teams currently. Mummy and Leach and company introduced concepts that NON LEGACY passing games use. This means incorporates their concepts into an updated and better passing game better than the LEGACY stuff some have learned and can not let go of. How many receivers had Leach put into the NFL? We all know few if any so that tells you something about only scheme and not technique being absorbed by his receivers.

[Captain Falcon]

Thanks to Tulu's kick return and a bend but don't break defense. The offense was terrible. We don't need a repeat of that.

Maybe I am in the minority but I do not expect us to be firing on all cylinders offensively right away. We may have to lean on defense again at times.

[Todd4State]

Evidently to some folks round here it's as hard as learning quantum physics. None of Barbay's OLs have been soft. They ran the ball down A&M's throat. App State's OL was more physical than A&M's 4 and 5 star DL.

If we look like the Key Stone cops against SELA then I'll be concerned, but if we handle SELA the way we should then I'll feel better about facing more talented defenses.

App State didn't win that game because of their offense. They scored 17 points- seven on a very short field after an A&M turnover. App State only had like 2-3 sustained drives that whole game.

Which is why I think it's funny that all of the fans who complained that Leach had to rely on the defense to win games are so excited about a guy whose signature win was literally relying on the defense to win.

[Reason2succeed]

App State didn't win that game because of their offense. They scored 17 points- seven on a very short field after an A&M turnover. App State only had like 2-3 sustained drives that whole game.

Which is why I think it's funny that all of the fans who complained that Leach had to rely on the defense to win games are so excited about a guy whose signature win was literally relying on the defense to win.

Haha!!! Those 2-3 sustained drives with App State?s talent versus A&Ms 4-5 stars is enough for me. Barbay?s offense is legit. If you want to see it get shutdown go watch Central Michigan vs LSU in 2021. That?s the worst case scenario. If the OL is completely overpowered by the DL his offense is toast. But the again name me and offense that could overcome that deficiency.

[TrapGame]

App State didn't win that game because of their offense. They scored 17 points- seven on a very short field after an A&M turnover. App State only had like 2-3 sustained drives that whole game.

Which is why I think it's funny that all of the fans who complained that Leach had to rely on the defense to win games are so excited about a guy whose signature win was literally relying on the defense to win.

We get it Todd. You hate the offense.

App State kept the ball for almost the entire 4th quarter. That was one hell of a sustained drive against a supposedly elite defense of 4 and 5 stars. Both sides of the ball did their jobs to win that game. That's why it's a team sport.

[confucius say]

To be clear, I think Barbay's offense can absolutely work here. At least as well others have. But it's a major scheme change and I have concerns about our OL, that's all I'm saying.

[msu15]

App State didn't win that game because of their offense. They scored 17 points- seven on a very short field after an A&M turnover. App State only had like 2-3 sustained drives that whole game.

Which is why I think it's funny that all of the fans who complained that Leach had to rely on the defense to win games are so excited about a guy whose signature win was literally relying on the defense to win.

You're a different cat Todd, I'll give you that. Just weird.

[Coach34]

App State didn't win that game because of their offense. They scored 17 points- seven on a very short field after an A&M turnover. App State only had like 2-3 sustained drives that whole game.

Which is why I think it's funny that all of the fans who complained that Leach had to rely on the defense to win games are so excited about a guy whose signature win was literally relying on the defense to win.

App State had the ball for almost 42 minutes in TOP. I’d say 100% their offense had a huge hand in them winning the game. A&M only had 18 mins in TOP

[Leroy Jenkins]

App State had the ball for almost 42 minutes in TOP. I?d say 100% their offense had a huge hand in them winning the game. A&M only had 18 mins in TOP

And they did it without a single player that would make aTm's roster.

[State82]

App State had the ball for almost 42 minutes in TOP. I’d say 100% their offense had a huge hand in them winning the game. A&M only had 18 mins in TOP

That is a pretty telling stat right there.

[Todd4State]

Haha!!! Those 2-3 sustained drives with App State?s talent versus A&Ms 4-5 stars is enough for me. Barbay?s offense is legit. If you want to see it get shutdown go watch Central Michigan vs LSU in 2021. That?s the worst case scenario. If the OL is completely overpowered by the DL his offense is toast. But the again name me and offense that could overcome that deficiency.

I didn't realize we had a bunch of 4-5 stars on our team. I like how that logic applies to Barbay but not MSU?

[Todd4State]

We get it Todd. You hate the offense.

App State kept the ball for almost the entire 4th quarter. That was one hell of a sustained drive against a supposedly elite defense of 4 and 5 stars. Both sides of the ball did their jobs to win that game. That's why it's a team sport.

I'm just saying it's not sustainable to do that and that our fans are talking out of both sides of their mouth. But that's typical for MSU fans.

[Bothrops]

The material is there in the secondary, like deeper than anytime I can remember. Coaching in the secondary is always a concern. You're always going to give up big plays, no matter what. You just have to cut down on the numbers.

[Bothrops]

To be clear, I think Barbay's offense can absolutely work here. At least as well others have. But it's a major scheme change and I have concerns about our OL, that's all I'm saying.

Agree. Scheme change and the time it's going to take to get operational is my worry.

[Coach34]

Agree. Scheme change and the time it's going to take to get operational is my worry.

Having a vet QB- especially one with a high football IQ like we have- should make the transition much easier

[Jarius]

I didn't realize we had a bunch of 4-5 stars on our team. I like how that logic applies to Barbay but not MSU?

Does it really need to be pointed out that the difference in talent between App State or CMU vs any team in this league is very different than the difference in talent between MSU and any SEC team? He will not ever face the type of talent discrepancy here that he did when he was at App State or CMU when he faced SEC teams.

[Jarius]

I'm just saying it's not sustainable to do that and that our fans are talking out of both sides of their mouth. But that's typical for MSU fans.

Like when our fans brag about our offense and quarterback winning 9 games last year when eveyrone who watched us play knows it was mainly the defense that won us games every single week? Yea.

[Coach34]

Our 2023 offense will at worse be as good as the 2022 offense

[Todd4State]

Like when our fans brag about our offense and quarterback winning 9 games last year when eveyrone who watched us play knows it was mainly the defense that won us games every single week? Yea.

Yeah. That's bullshit and you know it. Like when we scored 40+ on Arkansas? The defense let us down at times just like the offense let us down at times in 2022. Offense bailed us out against Auburn after the defense allowed Auburn to just go down the field easily. Defense gave up a 99 yard drive in the Egg Bowl at the end of the game that almost cost us. They were awful against Kentucky including giving up like three or four TD's in a row and that was after our offense got them the lead.

I've seen a lot more fans running with your narrative than our fans bragging about the offense.

Some people like you act like we had the 2018 defense last year and they weren't nearly as good as you make them out to be. Not saying they were bad but they were hardly without fault in our losses and our wins.

[Todd4State]

Does it really need to be pointed out that the difference in talent between App State or CMU vs any team in this league is very different than the difference in talent between MSU and any SEC team? He will not ever face the type of talent discrepancy here that he did when he was at App State or CMU when he faced SEC teams.

How is that different than when we play Alabama or LSU? Texas A&M was a dumpster fire with major culture issues. They aren't that good to start with.

I guarantee that if we beat Alabama and score 17 points you would be like "well Alabama was really down and our defense really won the game."

I mean if you think the way to beating blue bloods is to ride Woody Marks and our defense to 17 points then by all means...

[confucius say]

Like when our fans brag about our offense and quarterback winning 9 games last year when eveyrone who watched us play knows it was mainly the defense that won us games every single week? Yea.

That's not entirely true. Our defense wasn't good against Memphis, auburn, or Arkansas. Our offense scoring 39+ in those games was why we won. Our offense had several bad games though.

[Jarius]

Yeah. That's bullshit and you know it. Like when we scored 40+ on Arkansas? The defense let us down at times just like the offense let us down at times in 2022. Offense bailed us out against Auburn after the defense allowed Auburn to just go down the field easily. Defense gave up a 99 yard drive in the Egg Bowl at the end of the game that almost cost us. They were awful against Kentucky including giving up like three or four TD's in a row and that was after our offense got them the lead.

I've seen a lot more fans running with your narrative than our fans bragging about the offense.

Some people like you act like we had the 2018 defense last year and they weren't nearly as good as you make them out to be. Not saying they were bad but they were hardly without fault in our losses and our wins.

We turned the ball over 3 times, twice in the red zone against Auburn last year. The offense didn't bail anyone out. Arkansas had the worst defense in the P5 last year. I would hope we could score on them. And are you really blaming our defense for the egg bowl? ****ing seriously? Will Rogers fumbled the ball on the 1 yard line for them even to get that last opportunity, and that’s after he continually shit the bed the entire night in one of the worst performances I have ever seen. Our defense was the only reason we were in the game in the Egg Bowl. And Kentucky? LoL. Our offense had was absolute trash against Kentucky. They had 10 offensive points and got 225 yards of offense. What a collective of horrible takes.

[Jarius]

How is that different than when we play Alabama or LSU? Texas A&M was a dumpster fire with major culture issues. They aren't that good to start with.

I guarantee that if we beat Alabama and score 17 points you would be like "well Alabama was really down and our defense really won the game."

I mean if you think the way to beating blue bloods is to ride Woody Marks and our defense to 17 points then by all means...

If we score 17 points on Alabama it will be more than Mike Leach's offense scored against them in his entire tenure here. We are never going to consistently score a bunch of points on blue bloods. We can do better than the offense we trotted on the field for the past 3 years though.

[Jarius]

That's not entirely true. Our defense wasn't good against Memphis, auburn, or Arkansas. Our offense scoring 39+ in those games was why we won. Our offense had several bad games though.

It is entirely true. It was 35-10 in the 4th quarter against Memphis. They scored in garbage time. Our defense was put in horrible situations by the offense against Auburn. 3 turnovers with 2 in our own red zone. We beat Arkansas 40-17. The defense was fine and the offense was playing a horrible defense and did what they should have done.

[RezDog7]

How is that different than when we play Alabama or LSU? Texas A&M was a dumpster fire with major culture issues. They aren't that good to start with.

I guarantee that if we beat Alabama and score 17 points you would be like "well Alabama was really down and our defense really won the game."

I mean if you think the way to beating blue bloods is to ride Woody Marks and our defense to 17 points then by all means...

Tell me you don't know anything about football without telling me you don't know anything about football.

[confucius say]

We turned the ball over 3 times, twice in the red zone against Auburn last year. The offense didn't bail anyone out. Arkansas had the worst defense in the P5 last year. I would hope we could score on them. And are you really blaming our defense for the egg bowl? ****ing seriously? Will Rogers fumbled the ball on the 1 yard line for them even to get that last opportunity, and that’s after he continually shit the bed the entire night in one of the worst performances I have ever seen. Our defense was the only reason we were in the game in the Egg Bowl. And Kentucky? LoL. Our offense had was absolute trash against Kentucky. They had 10 offensive points and got 225 yards of offense. What a collective of horrible takes.

Ark and auburn torched us with backup QB who could not throw the football. Our offense saved us both of those games or we'd have been 6-6.

Our defense also gave us a chance to win KY and arguably even LSU. But our offense struggled against both.

The stats say our defense was a little ahead of our offense if I remember correctly, which seems about right.

[Jarius]

Ark and auburn torched us with backup QB who could not throw the football. Our offense saved us both of those games or we'd have been 6-6.

Our defense also gave us a chance to win KY and arguably even LSU. But our offense struggled against both.

The stats say our defense was a little ahead of our offense if I remember correctly, which seems about right.


Our offense did not "save" us against a single SEC opponent. THEY TURNED THE BALL OVER 3 TIMES AND TWICE IN THE RED ZONE AGAINST A BARELY TOP 100 RANKED DEFENSE IN AUBURN. That isn't saving shit. That's costing us the game. Our defense gave up 17 points against Arkansas and the offense was going up a horrible Arkansas defense. It was a game where both sides did what they should do. We had no shot against Kentucky, LSU, or Alabama because the offense was so horrible and we beat Ole Miss in spite of horrible quarterback play. We won the bowl game with our offense scoring 1 touchdown. Our defense is why we won 9 games.

[TrapGame]

Our 2023 offense will at worse be as good as the 2022 offense

EXACTLY!!!!

[KOdawg1]

Y'all, our offense was ass cheeks outside of a few games last year. We had a few games that propped up the overall stats, but I can't think of a single game we lost because of our defense.

Most, if not all of our losses were because we couldn't move the ball, score points, or keep from turning it over.

It's not a huge stretch to say we'll be just as good, if not better, this year... even with a new system.

[confucius say]

It is entirely true. It was 35-10 in the 4th quarter against Memphis. They scored in garbage time. Our defense was put in horrible situations by the offense against Auburn. 3 turnovers with 2 in our own red zone. We beat Arkansas 40-17. The defense was fine and the offense was playing a horrible defense and did what they should have done.

35-17 early in the fourth is not garbage time. Memphis ran all over us in the third and early fourth quarter. Over 200 yards from halftime to 10:39 left. Against our starters.

Our defense gave up numerous long drives vs auburn, including 3 scoring drives. And the offense only turned it over once in our red zone, which resulted in only 3 points. The other red zone turnover was by special teams and resulted in a TD. Auburn also had 60 and 75 yard TD drives. All against a backup qb who could not throw.

Our defense sucked against ark. We gave up 483 yards to a backup qb who could not throw. Fortunately Ark turned it over 4 times inside our 40 yard line, two of which were inside our 10.

We were 5th in the sec in scoring offense and
7th in scoring defense (tied with OM). We were 8th in total offense and 5th in total defense.

In sec games only, we were 9th in scoring offense and 8th in scoring defense. 11th in total offense and 6th in total defense.

The idea that our defense was some elite unit is just wrong. We were middle of the pack, but a little better than our offense though.

[confucius say]

Our offense did not "save" us against a single SEC opponent. THEY TURNED THE BALL OVER 3 TIMES AND TWICE IN THE RED ZONE AGAINST A BARELY TOP 100 RANKED DEFENSE IN AUBURN. That isn't saving shit. That's costing us the game. Our defense gave up 17 points against Arkansas and the offense was going up a horrible Arkansas defense. It was a game where both sides did what they should do. We had no shot against Kentucky, LSU, or Alabama because the offense was so horrible and we beat Ole Miss in spite of horrible quarterback play. We won the bowl game with our offense scoring 1 touchdown. Our defense is why we won 9 games.

Stop yelling the all caps part. I've already proved it false with stats.

[Jarius]

Stop yelling the all caps part. I've already proved it false with stats.

No, you’ve just spewed more nonsense. With 11:53 to go in the 2nd Rogers fumbled on our 12 yard line. With 1:29 left until half Will rogers fumbled at the auburn 48. With 9:27 to go in the 3rd Will rogers threw an INT at our own 19 yard line. The offense was garbage.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/playbyplay/_/gameId/401403935

[Jarius]

35-17 early in the fourth is not garbage time. Memphis ran all over us in the third and early fourth quarter. Over 200 yards from halftime to 10:39 left. Against our starters.

Our defense gave up numerous long drives vs auburn, including 3 scoring drives. And the offense only turned it over once in our red zone, which resulted in only 3 points. The other red zone turnover was by special teams and resulted in a TD. Auburn also had 60 and 75 yard TD drives. All against a backup qb who could not throw.

Our defense sucked against ark. We gave up 483 yards to a backup qb who could not throw. Fortunately Ark turned it over 4 times inside our 40 yard line, two of which were inside our 10.

We were 5th in the sec in scoring offense and
7th in scoring defense (tied with OM). We were 8th in total offense and 5th in total defense.

In sec games only, we were 9th in scoring offense and 8th in scoring defense. 11th in total offense and 6th in total defense.

The idea that our defense was some elite unit is just wrong. We were middle of the pack, but a little better than our offense though.

The idea that the game wasn’t over when Memphis started scoring is just ridiculously stupid. It was over. It was 35-10. It was garbage time. Get real. We gave up 17 points against Arkansas. We had no chance against any teams that were any good because the offense was complete ass against every single good defense we played.

[confucius say]

No, you’ve just spewed more nonsense. With 11:53 to go in the 2nd Rogers fumbled on our 12 yard line. With 1:29 left until half Will rogers fumbled at the auburn 48. With 9:27 to go in the 3rd Will rogers threw an INT at our own 19 yard line. The offense was garbage.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/playbyplay/_/gameId/401403935

There was no INT at our 19. You're counting where the int return ended (19 yard line), not where the interception took place or where the play began. By that logic, if Im on the opponent's ten and throw a pick on their goal line and they return it 80 yards then I "threw an INT" in my own red zone.
We scored 33 points in regulation.
Offense didn't click all night, I agree, but it played plenty well enough to win against a horrible auburn offense with a backup qb. The defense sucked.

[confucius say]

The idea that the game wasn’t over when Memphis started scoring is just ridiculously stupid. It was over. It was 35-10. It was garbage time. Get real. We gave up 17 points against Arkansas. We had no chance against any teams that were any good because the offense was complete ass against every single good defense we played.

35-17 early in the fourth is not over. We were up on auburn by the same margin, 18 points, and had to go to OT.

I agree with you that our offense was not good against uga, Bama, lsu, and KY. It was great in the four noncon games and ark. It was good against Aggie. Solid against auburn and OM but too many turnovers.

[Jarius]

There was no INT at our 19. You're counting where the int return ended (19 yard line), not where the interception took place or where the play began. By that logic, if Im on the opponent's ten and throw a pick on their goal line and they return it 80 yards then I "threw an INT" in my own red zone.
We scored 33 points in regulation.
Offense didn't click all night, I agree, but it played plenty well enough to win against a horrible auburn offense with a backup qb. The defense sucked.


Holy shit dude. You went from “the turnover happened on special teams” to “the int was not caught in the red zone it only ended up there”. Take the loss and stop, for your own sake. Auburn started their possession in our red zone after we threw an interception. Period. Good lord what an argument. Scoring 33 points against a defense ranked 96th in the country and allowing the offense to take over in our own red zone twice is a recipe to go to overtime with a bad SEC team. Blaming the defense in that situation is absurd.

[confucius say]

Holy shit dude. You went from “the turnover happened on special teams” to “the int was not caught in the red zone it only ended up there”. Take the loss and stop, for your own sake. Auburn started their possession in our red zone after we threw an interception. Period. Good lord what an argument. Scoring 33 points against a defense ranked 96th in the country and allowing the offense to take over in our own red zone twice is a recipe to go to overtime with a bad SEC team. Blaming the defense in that situation is absurd.

You literally were wrong. You said our offense turned it over twice in our red zone. That literally did not happen.
Our offense fumbled inside our own red zone.
Our special teams fumbled inside our red zone.
We threw two picks on plays that began outside of our red zone, one of which was returned inside our our own red zone.
Again, by your logic if we turn it over at the other team's 20 and somebody runs the pick/fumble back to our 19 that the turnover occurred inside our redzone. It didn't.

Again, I'm not saying our offense played great. But you score 33 points at home against a backup QB who can't throw, you should win. Our defense giving up 33 points to the 85th ranked offense, at home, isnt good. And Only 3 of their 33 points came off of offensive turnovers. They ran it down our throat despite being one dimensional.

[Jarius]

You literally were wrong. You said our offense turned it over twice in our red zone. That literally did not happen.
Our offense fumbled inside our own red zone.
Our special teams fumbled inside our red zone.
We threw two picks on plays that began outside of our red zone, one of which was returned inside our our own red zone.
Again, by your logic if we turn it over at the other team's 20 and somebody runs the pick/fumble back to our 19 that the turnover occurred inside our redzone. It didn't.

Again, I'm not saying our offense played great. But you score 33 points at home against a backup QB who can't throw, you should win. Our defense giving up 33 points to the 85th ranked offense, at home, isnt good. And Only 3 of their 33 points came off of offensive turnovers. They ran it down our throat despite being one dimensional.



This is the absolute dumbest argument I have ever heard in my life. If the offense has the ball and turn it over and the other team runs it back into our red zone, our defense has to start in our own red zone because of the mistake of our offense. That is the entire point. Our offense, against Auburn, was dog shit. Auburn scored 10 points where drives started in our red zone when they had 3 drives that started there. That’s pretty good defense.

[Todd4State]

We turned the ball over 3 times, twice in the red zone against Auburn last year. The offense didn't bail anyone out. Arkansas had the worst defense in the P5 last year. I would hope we could score on them. And are you really blaming our defense for the egg bowl? ****ing seriously? Will Rogers fumbled the ball on the 1 yard line for them even to get that last opportunity, and that?s after he continually shit the bed the entire night in one of the worst performances I have ever seen. Our defense was the only reason we were in the game in the Egg Bowl. And Kentucky? LoL. Our offense had was absolute trash against Kentucky. They had 10 offensive points and got 225 yards of offense. What a collective of horrible takes.

First of all I didn't "blame" the defense for the Egg Bowl at all. I just stated that them allowing a 99 yard drive was a bad moment for them. And I don't really see how that is up for debate at all. Your problem is you are trying to make everything black and white where it's either one side of the ball's "fault" or they're credited with winning the game. And that's not how football works at all. The reality is the offense and defense both had good and bad moments this year. Our defense that you claim was soooo good finished right smack in the middle of the SEC in PPG allowed in SEC games only with 29 PPG. Our 2018 defense allowed 14 PPG for reference. Basically what you're saying is our offense was bad against Auburn because they turned the ball over 3 times and somehow our defense was good based on certain sections of the game that fit your narrative while completely ignoring the entire game and the entire product. You can't blame the offense for everything.


If we score 17 points on Alabama it will be more than Mike Leach's offense scored against them in his entire tenure here. We are never going to consistently score a bunch of points on blue bloods. We can do better than the offense we trotted on the field for the past 3 years though.

That would also be more than we scored on them since 2017 if my memory is correct. And if the highlighted is correct then why are you blaming our offense for last year? What did Barbay score on A&M? 17 points? Guess how many we scored on LSU and Georgia? 16 and 19? Even Alabama we outgained them on offense. The big difference is the defense you think is so great allowed 30+ to those teams while App State allowed 14. So which is it? Either we can't score a bunch of points on bluebloods or we can do better on offense? That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say that MSU fans talk out of both sides of their mouth.

We'll see if you hold Barbay to the same standard when the highlighted part comes to fruition.

Typical MSU fan logic- if we can just get a coach to outscheme Alabama we'll win! Like Barbay is going to catch Saban with his pants down running wide zone and Tulu on sweeps. The only that is going to ever do that is going to get us better is better players- which it looks like we're finally getting at least. Can't wait for 2027!**

[Coach34]

We ran a punt back against Georgia didn’t we?

[Pancho]

yes

[Offshore Dawg]

Too many agenda in this (17)ing thread. WE know your points !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jarius]

First of all I didn't "blame" the defense for the Egg Bowl at all. I just stated that them allowing a 99 yard drive was a bad moment for them. And I don't really see how that is up for debate at all. Your problem is you are trying to make everything black and white where it's either one side of the ball's "fault" or they're credited with winning the game. And that's not how football works at all. The reality is the offense and defense both had good and bad moments this year. Our defense that you claim was soooo good finished right smack in the middle of the SEC in PPG allowed in SEC games only with 29 PPG. Our 2018 defense allowed 14 PPG for reference. Basically what you're saying is our offense was bad against Auburn because they turned the ball over 3 times and somehow our defense was good based on certain sections of the game that fit your narrative while completely ignoring the entire game and the entire product. You can't blame the offense for everything.



That would also be more than we scored on them since 2017 if my memory is correct. And if the highlighted is correct then why are you blaming our offense for last year? What did Barbay score on A&M? 17 points? Guess how many we scored on LSU and Georgia? 16 and 19? Even Alabama we outgained them on offense. The big difference is the defense you think is so great allowed 30+ to those teams while App State allowed 14. So which is it? Either we can't score a bunch of points on bluebloods or we can do better on offense? That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say that MSU fans talk out of both sides of their mouth.

We'll see if you hold Barbay to the same standard when the highlighted part comes to fruition.

Typical MSU fan logic- if we can just get a coach to outscheme Alabama we'll win! Like Barbay is going to catch Saban with his pants down running wide zone and Tulu on sweeps. The only that is going to ever do that is going to get us better is better players- which it looks like we're finally getting at least. Can't wait for 2027!**

I’m not talking out both sides of my mouth, you just have such a hard on for Mike Leach that you can’t look at things rationally. Anyone having a negative talking point about our defense in the egg bowl probably never played a down of football in their life. They came out and bowed up time after time after time of being put in awful situations in that game. Yea, they gave up a 99 yard drive at the end after our quarterback turned it over for the 19th time that game. You have ZERO ability to look at the nuances of why certain situations play out the way they do. When the defense has to play backed up in their red zone, it affects their numbers. It makes things harder for them. When the offense goes punt, punt, punt, int, fumble, punt, touchdown, touchdown or some other variance of that, the defense is going to struggle. I don’t know how else to explain it to someone who obviously never played football and has only watched, but that is not a recipe for defensive success. And the fact that someone has to point out for the second time that Barbay was playing with a bunch of 2 stars at App State and will now be playing with a roster of all 3/4 star semi highly rated guys is a bit ridiculous. I mean how do you not understand that? We are not going to go outscheme Alabama or LSU or Georgia 9 times out of ten, but we should be more competitive than we have been a lot of times. We scored 12 points on Georgia and 6 on Alabama offensively last year. We have kind of shook off the LSU curse and competed. We need to do the same with alabama.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Look at any one of our bad offensive performances and you will see little to no rushing attempts, 3-5 drops (more should be counted) and a defense that played man free and made our outside WRs quit.

When a new coach comes in and takes 2 big outside WRs from the portal (and leach tells you after multiple games and even throws their chairs away) it shows you all
You really need to know

[Todd4State]

I’m not talking out both sides of my mouth, you just have such a hard on for Mike Leach that you can’t look at things rationally. Anyone having a negative talking point about our defense in the egg bowl probably never played a down of football in their life. They came out and bowed up time after time after time of being put in awful situations in that game. Yea, they gave up a 99 yard drive at the end after our quarterback turned it over for the 19th time that game. You have ZERO ability to look at the nuances of why certain situations play out the way they do. When the defense has to play backed up in their red zone, it affects their numbers. It makes things harder for them. When the offense goes punt, punt, punt, int, fumble, punt, touchdown, touchdown or some other variance of that, the defense is going to struggle. I don’t know how else to explain it to someone who obviously never played football and has only watched, but that is not a recipe for defensive success. And the fact that someone has to point out for the second time that Barbay was playing with a bunch of 2 stars at App State and will now be playing with a roster of all 3/4 star semi highly rated guys is a bit ridiculous. I mean how do you not understand that? We are not going to go outscheme Alabama or LSU or Georgia 9 times out of ten, but we should be more competitive than we have been a lot of times. We scored 12 points on Georgia and 6 on Alabama offensively last year. We have kind of shook off the LSU curse and competed. We need to do the same with alabama.

And you have such a hard on for Zach Arnett that you can't see things rationally. I'm actually the one in this discussion that is saying that both sides had bad moments last year. You're blaming the offense for any time the defense didn't hold up and that's absolutely ludicrous. But yeah- I'm the irrational one.** You don't have to play a down of football to know that a defense allowing a 99 yard drive is not good. I don't even think Zach Arnett would agree with you to be honest. The "nuances" go both ways. When the defense is allowing the same guy for Kentucky to get huge chunks after every play and allows them to run down the clock it makes it harder on the offense to get into a rhythm and puts more pressure on them. Our defense allowed four straight TD's basically after our offense gave us the lead with 8 minutes left in the third quarter. But yeah- it's totally the offense's fault. If your nuances theory held up then how do you explain low scoring games? In your theory at least one team should cave because they were "tired". I could just as easily tell you that Dillion Johnson getting hurt royally messed up the offense which has a lot of validity to it. We had no problem handing him the ball in the Kentucky game until he hurt his knee.

The vast majority of App State recruits are three stars by the way.

https://247sports.com/college/appalachian-state/Season/2019-Football/Commits/

Texas A&M sucks. We kicked A&M's ass. The difference between A&M at this point until someone comes in and fixes A&M and App State is about the same as it is between MSU and LSU. A&M was a 5-7 team last year.

[Todd4State]

Look at any one of our bad offensive performances and you will see little to no rushing attempts, 3-5 drops (more should be counted) and a defense that played man free and made our outside WRs quit.

When a new coach comes in and takes 2 big outside WRs from the portal (and leach tells you after multiple games and even throws their chairs away) it shows you all
You really need to know

Yeah but the narrative sounds a lot better than the actual truth.**

[Jarius]

And you have such a hard on for Zach Arnett that you can't see things rationally. I'm actually the one in this discussion that is saying that both sides had bad moments last year. You're blaming the offense for any time the defense didn't hold up and that's absolutely ludicrous. But yeah- I'm the irrational one.** You don't have to play a down of football to know that a defense allowing a 99 yard drive is not good. I don't even think Zach Arnett would agree with you to be honest. The "nuances" go both ways. When the defense is allowing the same guy for Kentucky to get huge chunks after every play and allows them to run down the clock it makes it harder on the offense to get into a rhythm and puts more pressure on them. Our defense allowed four straight TD's basically after our offense gave us the lead with 8 minutes left in the third quarter. But yeah- it's totally the offense's fault. If your nuances theory held up then how do you explain low scoring games? In your theory at least one team should cave because they were "tired". I could just as easily tell you that Dillion Johnson getting hurt royally messed up the offense which has a lot of validity to it. We had no problem handing him the ball in the Kentucky game until he hurt his knee.

The vast majority of App State recruits are three stars by the way.

https://247sports.com/college/appalachian-state/Season/2019-Football/Commits/

Texas A&M sucks. We kicked A&M's ass. The difference between A&M at this point until someone comes in and fixes A&M and App State is about the same as it is between MSU and LSU. A&M was a 5-7 team last year.



I don’t have a hard on for anyone. I just have enough common sense to look at what both sides of the ball did against any team with a pulse last year and know which one cost us the game and which one didn’t. No one said that the 99 yard drive the defense gave up was great. If you cook, clean, bathe the kids, and pay the bills but accidentally forget to fill the car up with gas while your spouse sat there and played on Facebook all day you don’t get the blame for the gas not being full. I’ll let you figure out which spouse was playing on Facebook all during the egg bowl. The one sitting on their ass all game day does. The offense didn’t pull their load in almost any single SEC game in 2022. Acting like App State should be in the football game with Texas A&M last year (or any other year) is the dumbass take of the century. I can’t even argue with that nonsense. The offense scored 10 ****ing points against Kentucky and the defense had a pick 6. What on earth are you bitching about in that game? We had 225 yards of offense.

[Coach34]

The offense scored 10 ****ing points against Kentucky and the defense had a pick 6. What on earth are you bitching about in that game? We had 225 yards of offense.

Which is hilarious considering the narrative around here before we played Kentucky was that we should always be the favorite when playing Kentucky.

[msu15]

Which is hilarious considering the narrative around here before we played Kentucky was that we should always be the favorite when playing Kentucky.

Don't tell Turfdawg that.