My reasoning for my position change on Lemon

[Coach34]

While I dont agree with some of the things Lemon does like screwing up Dakota Jordan the 1st half the season or not making Hugesak a 3rd baseman and cutting the cancer out of the team, or why we didnt have an SEC level SS- my biggest issues with the program centered around pitching. Pitching decisions, pitch-calling, pitching recruiting, not having guys heated and ready when we should. Those have been glaring issues since he and Fox got to town.

That has looked different since Fox was let go. The pitch-calling improved and was more FB friendly. We started challenging hitters at their hands more. Fewer instances of 6 or 7 straight breaking balls. Going to the pen quicker. Chewing a little ass on mound visits. Just looked better run the last 3 weeks.

We battled after the UPig series. We hustled- plays like Highfill hustling on the dropped flyball the other days. We took a series from LSU. We nearly took one from A&M.

We have to fix the pitching- period and this team will be back next season competing in the top 20 again. We have some good young talent with more coming in along with some injured guys returning. Need 4 quality guys from the portal and then a couple more for depth.

C- Highfill
1B- Hines
2B- Mershon
SS- Freshman or portal
3B- ??? (I'd work to put Hugesak here if he'll stay)
LF- ???? (Hugesak possibly here)
CF- Jordan
RF- ????

Fri- Simmons
Sat- Loo
Sun- Loftin or Holcombe
Midweek- Siary

Dohm
Auger
Tapper
Gartman (could return if not drafted)
No idea about Gibbs or Miller who didnt pitch this year
Forsythe
Freshman signee that surprises

Need a couple of impact guys out of the portal on the field and on the hill

Team could be pretty good with the right pieces added

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

I see 3 issues:

1) this game can be played for every sport in every season. "We have A and B returning, so if C takes a step forward we just need to find D from somewhere!" and then in reality B gets hurt and C doesn't take that step and D never gets found and ABCD combines to be the worst position group on the team.

2) your list of pitchers relies a LOT on guys taking steps forward. The entire week's rotation is guys who are coming off TJ or can't get through 2 innings of SEC play today. That's a lot of big steps forward to become serviceable starters. But the Portal can flip a team in no time so we may put together a rotation that way.

3) Lemonis has flaws in other areas. First he makes some... interesting roster decisions. For example he expected Hancock to play C this season. 2 years on the roster and Lemo never noticed he had a weak arm, or thought to actually see his arm at catcher. He just said "We have hancock, no need to pursue a transfer!". SO going into next season, I can't trust him to evaluate our RF options, or evaluate our 3B options, etc. Moreover our defense is league worst this season. These can't be blamed on FOx.

Overall, I recognize he may bounce back next year, that we can't find anyone decent to replace him, that we don't have the $6m to replace him, whatever. Keeping Lemo might be what we have to do, and it may even be the right call. But I doubt it is. You dont' miss Hoover back to back and still get to claim to be a good coach, anymore than a football coach that goes 4-8 back to back seasons can.

[EdwardDrayton]

Well, then we should at least fire whoever chose to hang on to the pitching doofus way too long. That'll work for me. ****

[civildawg]

Agreed. I can?t believe we are sticking with him. I don?t even follow baseball that closely but to be a supposed blue blood in baseball, we sure don?t seem to be acting like it. I also hate how the goalposts always move when it comes to MSU fan expectations. Say he has to improve after last year then he doesn?t improve and it?s oh well we fired the pitching coach so he should get another year. Mind blowing

[KOdawg1]

C- Highfill
1B- Hines
2B- Mershon
SS- Cupp
3B- LH Transfer
LF- Chance
CF- Jordan
RF- Hujsak/LH transfer

[EdwardDrayton]

Agreed. I can?t believe we are sticking with him. I don?t even follow baseball that closely but to be a supposed blue blood in baseball, we sure don?t seem to be acting like it. I also hate how the goalposts always move when it comes to MSU fan expectations. Say he has to improve after last year then he doesn?t improve and it?s oh well we fired the pitching coach so he should get another year. Mind blowing

Last. Next to last. Head coach is responsible. A third time to try and fix it?!!? Hmmmmm.

[Goldendawg]

I see 3 issues:

1) this game can be played for every sport in every season. "We have A and B returning, so if C takes a step forward we just need to find D from somewhere!" and then in reality B gets hurt and C doesn't take that step and D never gets found and ABCD combines to be the worst position group on the team.

2) your list of pitchers relies a LOT on guys taking steps forward. The entire week's rotation is guys who are coming off TJ or can't get through 2 innings of SEC play today. That's a lot of big steps forward to become serviceable starters. But the Portal can flip a team in no time so we may put together a rotation that way.

3) Lemonis has flaws in other areas. First he makes some... interesting roster decisions. For example he expected Hancock to play C this season. 2 years on the roster and Lemo never noticed he had a weak arm, or thought to actually see his arm at catcher. He just said "We have hancock, no need to pursue a transfer!". SO going into next season, I can't trust him to evaluate our RF options, or evaluate our 3B options, etc. Moreover our defense is league worst this season. These can't be blamed on FOx.

Overall, I recognize he may bounce back next year, that we can't find anyone decent to replace him, that we don't have the $6m to replace him, whatever. Keeping Lemo might be what we have to do, and it may even be the right call. But I doubt it is. You dont' miss Hoover back to back and still get to claim to be a good coach, anymore than a football coach that goes 4-8 back to back seasons can.

Have to spread rep around before repping you again.

[Cooterpoot]

17 Lemonis

[magrooder]

If Lemonis stays, I hope he gets it turned around and is the guy we need. I just don't see it happening tho and would prefer to move on.

[EdwardDrayton]

If Lemonis stays, I hope he gets it turned around and is the guy we need. I just don't see it happening tho and would prefer to move on.

Exactly. Didn't we give him this year to fix it after dead last the previous season. Is next to last a turnaround?!!? Why would we think a third time will be the magic?!!?

[Pancho]

I wonder if Selmon will have to let him go about mid April of 24 now.

[Quaoarsking]

Most competent coaches would have had us better in 2022 and 2023, and they probably would in 2024 too. We don't have anything to lose by replacing him and trying to do better.

[SPMT]

Most competent coaches would have had us better in 2022 and 2023, and they probably would in 2024 too. We don't have anything to lose by replacing him and trying to do better.


I agree. I mean FSU fired Martin Jr and he didn?t have a losing record and was .500 or above in conference. Fired him basically after 2 year basically.

We don?t know how to handle success because we?ve never really had it in any sport until now.

Hopefully, he gets it together to at minimum make a regional next year.

For sure we are a blue blood, but we are Nebraska football right now.

[confucius say]

Again. We're not paying 6 million dollars to get rid of a staff plus another couple million to buy out the contract of whatever staff we would hire in a non-revenue sport.

[Todd4State]

I agree. I mean FSU fired Martin Jr and he didn?t have a losing record and was .500 or above in conference. Fired him basically after 2 year basically.

We don?t know how to handle success because we?ve never really had it in any sport until now.

Hopefully, he gets it together to at minimum make a regional next year.

For sure we are a blue blood, but we are Nebraska football right now.

Would you care to look at Florida State's record right now?

Going 23-31 for those who don't have time to look it up is hardly a ringing endorsement on going that route.

[Quaoarsking]

Again. We're not paying 6 million dollars to get rid of a staff plus another couple million to buy out the contract of whatever staff we would hire in a non-revenue sport.

You're just making up numbers now. 2 million to buy out whom?

[Todd4State]

I see 3 issues:

1) this game can be played for every sport in every season. "We have A and B returning, so if C takes a step forward we just need to find D from somewhere!" and then in reality B gets hurt and C doesn't take that step and D never gets found and ABCD combines to be the worst position group on the team.

2) your list of pitchers relies a LOT on guys taking steps forward. The entire week's rotation is guys who are coming off TJ or can't get through 2 innings of SEC play today. That's a lot of big steps forward to become serviceable starters. But the Portal can flip a team in no time so we may put together a rotation that way.

3) Lemonis has flaws in other areas. First he makes some... interesting roster decisions. For example he expected Hancock to play C this season. 2 years on the roster and Lemo never noticed he had a weak arm, or thought to actually see his arm at catcher. He just said "We have hancock, no need to pursue a transfer!". SO going into next season, I can't trust him to evaluate our RF options, or evaluate our 3B options, etc. Moreover our defense is league worst this season. These can't be blamed on FOx.

Overall, I recognize he may bounce back next year, that we can't find anyone decent to replace him, that we don't have the $6m to replace him, whatever. Keeping Lemo might be what we have to do, and it may even be the right call. But I doubt it is. You dont' miss Hoover back to back and still get to claim to be a good coach, anymore than a football coach that goes 4-8 back to back seasons can.

1. We don't know what will happen but at a minimum we will be very strong up the middle next year with Highfill, Mershon, Cupp, and Dakota Jordan. Teams that are typically good are strong up the middle. We know Hines is a 20 home run guy as well and Chance appears to be a quality player who should be better. Improving a team ERA of 7 is hardly unrealistic as well. Lemonis has hit pretty good in the portal on position players- Dubrule, Yeager, Larry, and Ledbetter to name a few.

2. I don't think most of our fans fathom how bad Foxhall was. If we can improve our team ERA to five which is still not very good but significantly better than this year then we will easily be in a regional. Foxhall was essentially Lemonis's Peter Sirmon. Which is a lot more relevant comparison compared to the Moorhead comps. If our rotation next year is Loo, Loftin, and Holcombe that would be three top 200 MLB draft prospects in our rotation alone. Our fans don't think someone average as a pitching coach even could do something with that? Not to mention Dohm coming back. And by the way- having a winning record with an ERA of 7 and setting a school record for walks by a mile is unheard of. And actually in a morbid way kind of impressive.

3. Hancock had not had any problems before this year. And it's not like Highfill didn't get better as the season went on. A lot of those stolen bases early on were on our pitchers not holding the runners on. So yeah- even that is on Foxhall. We made 65 errors as a team this year 28 of those were by two players alone. Seems like an easy fix- in fact Lane Forsythe won't be back from what I've heard. So there goes 15 right there. I haven't heard anything about Alford yet although there are rumors he will enter the portal. But at the same time I wouldn't be shocked if we bring him back and see if he can improve while bringing in a UTL type INF that profile at third if he can't figure it out. He may be a douchebag but he also got some of our biggest hits this year too. None of us are around the team but losing can turn people into assholes sometimes. Essentially he's our Roger Dorn.

[Todd4State]

You're just making up numbers now. 2 million to buy out whom?

He's talking about whoever the new staff would be. And he's not only talking about the head coach- that's likely a pitching coach, a hitting coach and then the two other MISC. coaches that everyone has. Sure it may be lower but again- it's money spent. And on top of that it doesn't what we would have to pay them to be our coaches as well.

[CaptainObvious]

Again. We're not paying 6 million dollars to get rid of a staff plus another couple million to buy out the contract of whatever staff we would hire in a non-revenue sport.

Who is We?re?

You nor I know who has the pockets deep enough to pay a big chunk of a buyout and limit the financial damage to the program. Nobody has a right to tell someone what to spend their money on and if a few boosters choose Coach buyouts over NIL or BC, that is their prerogative. Don?t come back and say that is a poor decision. The money is not any of yours to earmark. Let?s see what happens in the next few of days.

[maroonmania]

Whatever, I'm pretty much checked out on baseball for now. Looking much more forward to football and basketball season for the next school year. Ridiculous that after 3 straight trips to Omaha that our coaching staff let the program fall to this anemic level.

[Quaoarsking]

Whatever, I'm pretty much checked out on baseball for now. Looking much more forward to football and basketball season for the next school year. Ridiculous that after 3 straight trips to Omaha that our coaching staff let the program fall to this anemic level.

Not just our coaching staff if the Lemonis Era extends to 2024. Our AD and boosters are in on damaging the program as well. It's sad to see this happen to us.

[The Federalist Engineer]

What is the minimum threshold for Lemonis next year?

For me:

A. 13th-14th place in April 2024 = Fired with Gotro Interim
B. 13th-14th place after 30 games = Fired
C. Hoover no Regional = Fired
D. Regional no advancement = Fired
E. Regional Hosted no advancement = borderline
F. Super regional = Retained
G. National Seed regardless of outcome = Retained

[BuckyIsAB****]

If he stays its time to spend a lot less money on baseball, bc we arent serious about it

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

1. We don't know what will happen but at a minimum we will be very strong up the middle next year with Highfill, Mershon, Cupp, and Dakota Jordan. Teams that are typically good are strong up the middle. We know Hines is a 20 home run guy as well and Chance appears to be a quality player who should be better. Improving a team ERA of 7 is hardly unrealistic as well. Lemonis has hit pretty good in the portal on position players- Dubrule, Yeager, Larry, and Ledbetter to name a few.

2. I don't think most of our fans fathom how bad Foxhall was. If we can improve our team ERA to five which is still not very good but significantly better than this year then we will easily be in a regional. Foxhall was essentially Lemonis's Peter Sirmon. Which is a lot more relevant comparison compared to the Moorhead comps. If our rotation next year is Loo, Loftin, and Holcombe that would be three top 200 MLB draft prospects in our rotation alone. Our fans don't think someone average as a pitching coach even could do something with that? Not to mention Dohm coming back. And by the way- having a winning record with an ERA of 7 and setting a school record for walks by a mile is unheard of. And actually in a morbid way kind of impressive.

3. Hancock had not had any problems before this year. And it's not like Highfill didn't get better as the season went on. A lot of those stolen bases early on were on our pitchers not holding the runners on. So yeah- even that is on Foxhall. We made 65 errors as a team this year 28 of those were by two players alone. Seems like an easy fix- in fact Lane Forsythe won't be back from what I've heard. So there goes 15 right there. I haven't heard anything about Alford yet although there are rumors he will enter the portal. But at the same time I wouldn't be shocked if we bring him back and see if he can improve while bringing in a UTL type INF that profile at third if he can't figure it out. He may be a douchebag but he also got some of our biggest hits this year too. None of us are around the team but losing can turn people into assholes sometimes. Essentially he's our Roger Dorn.

This is getting very wordy so I'll just pick a few highlights to address.

1) Fox is Lemonis' Peter Sirmon: and Mullen fired him after 1 season. If he had kept Sirmon into '17 for another 5-7 season Mullen would have been fired.

2) you can't pretend the bad defense is going to go away. We have no 3B, Chance may start for us and he's not known for defense, and Mershon hasn't proven he can play defense better than Forsythe. You also mention Alford maybe coming back as of he's not God awful defensively

3) on Hancock, he "hadn't had any problems before this year" because he hadn't caught before this year to have problems lol. Are you suggesting his arm magically got weaker this past off-season?

4) on the rotation-you can talk about how highly these guys are thought of in MLB circles, the fact is they have to go from "can't go an inning of relief in SEC play" to "SEC starter" in 1 off-season. That's extremely rare. Dohm coming back is great but his SEC ERA was what? He also needs to take a step to become a stud.

[Mjoelner34]

What is the minimum threshold for Lemonis next year?

For me:

A. 13th-14th place in April 2024 = Fired with Gotro Interim
B. 13th-14th place after 30 games = Fired
C. Hoover no Regional = Fired
D. Regional no advancement = Fired
E. Regional Hosted no advancement = borderline
F. Super regional = Retained
G. National Seed regardless of outcome = Retained

For me it's a 2 seed in a regional but I'm sure if we squeak into the SEC tourney as an 11 or 12, we'll have those saying we can't fire him because we couldn't get anybody to come here after we fired a coach who showed 'improvement '.

[Quaoarsking]

If we make the bad decision to bring Lemonis back for 2024, the only way he should get 2025 is if we host or barely miss hosting. Just making Hoover or just making a Regional isn't good enough for a program of our stature.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

For me it's a 2 seed in a regional but I'm sure if we squeak into the SEC tourney as an 11 or 12, we'll have those saying we can't fire him because we couldn't get anybody to come here after we fired a coach who showed 'improvement '.

"Yeah we were bad for the 3rd year in a row, BUT the team is built around Fr and So and he's got a highly rated class coming in. Do you want Highfill to transfer and the class to fall apart?

Also you can't really blame Lemonis for this season. I mean our pitching staff went from dead last to 10th which is actually a pretty impressive coaching job considering how bare the cupboards were after Foxhall left. Gotta give Lemonis and the PC time to build a staff, they can't work miracles in 1 offseason."

[msudawg1200]

"Yeah we were bad for the 3rd year in a row, BUT the team is built around Fr and So and he's got a highly rated class coming in. Do you want Highfill to transfer and the class to fall apart?

Also you can't really blame Lemonis for this season. I mean our pitching staff went from dead last to 10th which is actually a pretty impressive coaching job considering how bare the cupboards were after Foxhall left. Gotta give Lemonis and the PC time to build a staff, they can't work miracles in 1 offseason."

Lemonis is the Head Man. The buck stops with him. I hope you are being sarcastic.

[PMDawg]

While I dont agree with some of the things Lemon does like screwing up Dakota Jordan the 1st half the season or not making Hugesak a 3rd baseman and cutting the cancer out of the team, or why we didnt have an SEC level SS- my biggest issues with the program centered around pitching. Pitching decisions, pitch-calling, pitching recruiting, not having guys heated and ready when we should. Those have been glaring issues since he and Fox got to town.

That has looked different since Fox was let go. The pitch-calling improved and was more FB friendly. We started challenging hitters at their hands more. Fewer instances of 6 or 7 straight breaking balls. Going to the pen quicker. Chewing a little ass on mound visits. Just looked better run the last 3 weeks.

We battled after the UPig series. We hustled- plays like Highfill hustling on the dropped flyball the other days. We took a series from LSU. We nearly took one from A&M.

We have to fix the pitching- period and this team will be back next season competing in the top 20 again. We have some good young talent with more coming in along with some injured guys returning. Need 4 quality guys from the portal and then a couple more for depth.

C- Highfill
1B- Hines
2B- Mershon
SS- Freshman or portal
3B- ??? (I'd work to put Hugesak here if he'll stay)
LF- ???? (Hugesak possibly here)
CF- Jordan
RF- ????

Fri- Simmons
Sat- Loo
Sun- Loftin or Holcombe
Midweek- Siary

Dohm
Auger
Tapper
Gartman (could return if not drafted)
No idea about Gibbs or Miller who didnt pitch this year
Forsythe
Freshman signee that surprises

Need a couple of impact guys out of the portal on the field and on the hill

Team could be pretty good with the right pieces added

Disagree. I told my wife Nixon was giving up that 3-run HR to lose the game. Called it before the AB started. Starting every batter off with 2-0 or 2-1, the passed ball, hitters making good contact...it was just too obvious. If I could see it from home, the coach should be able to see it from his bucket. Nixon wasn't the right call that day, and it was obvious. If we keep him, we're looking for a new coach next year. We probably miss the postseason again next year too.

[The Federalist Engineer]

4) Pitching

The Horrors:

(1) 10.62 Runs per SEC game (6.84 Average, Bama 4.96). That's with 6 or 7 run-rule games keeping things less bad. Last in the SEC
(2) 11.45 Hits per SEC game (9.32 Average, Bama 7.67). Last in the SEC
(3) 9.54 Earned Runs per SEC game (6.18 Average, Bama 4.62). Last in the SEC
(4) 2.63 HRs per SEC game (1.69 Average, Bama 1.49). Last in the SEC
(5) Left-Handed Hitters hit .323 vs MSU pitching (266 Average, Bama 207). Tied for Last in the SEC with Ole Miss.
(6) Lead-off Hitter On-Base % .443 vs MSU pitching (381 Average, Bama 373). Last in the SEC.
(7) 2-Out Hitting 302 vs MSU pitching (246 average, Bama 221). Last in the SEC.
(8) Walks, last in the SEC. We all knew that one. 6.91 to 4.97 Average (Bama 3.82)

The bright side:

Jason Jackson that's the Alabama PC. Without the glamour transfers or the 2nd best recruiting class, he had the best SEC game only pitching staff. If this dude does not get the Bama job. He is a free agent, I guess. He is also their recruiting coordinator.

[BrunswickDawg]

4) Pitching

The Horrors:

(1) 10.62 Runs per SEC game (6.84 Average, Bama 4.96). That's with 6 or 7 run-rule games keeping things less bad. Last in the SEC
(2) 11.45 Hits per SEC game (9.32 Average, Bama 7.67). Last in the SEC
(3) 9.54 Earned Runs per SEC game (6.18 Average, Bama 4.62). Last in the SEC
(4) 2.63 HRs per SEC game (1.69 Average, Bama 1.49). Last in the SEC
(5) Left-Handed Hitters hit .323 vs MSU pitching (266 Average, Bama 207). Tied for Last in the SEC with Ole Miss.
(6) Lead-off Hitter On-Base % .443 vs MSU pitching (381 Average, Bama 373). Last in the SEC.
(7) 2-Out Hitting 302 vs MSU pitching (246 average, Bama 221). Last in the SEC.
(8) Walks, last in the SEC. We all knew that one. 6.91 to 4.97 Average (Bama 3.82)

The bright side:

Jason Jackson that's the Alabama PC. Without the glamour transfers or the 2nd best recruiting class, he had the best SEC game only pitching staff. If this dude does not get the Bama job. He is a free agent, I guess. He is also their recruiting coordinator.

I'd say the bright side was we somehow finished 27-26 with those pitching stats while also being #48 in RPI and #7 in Strength of Schedule (according to Warren Nolen). When you look at your stats I would have thought our record would be a whole lot worse.
To put that in perspective, our 2015 last in the SEC team went 24-30 (8-22), and in SEC play gave up 6 runs a game; 10.2 hits a game; 5.45 Earned runs a game; .8 HR a game; and 6.6 walks a game.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Lemonis is the Head Man. The buck stops with him. I hope you are being sarcastic.

Oh I am. I'm saying that's what people will be saying next year to justify keeping Lemonis into '25. I am not saying those are my thoughts

[Coach34]

If we arent in the NCAA Tourney next year- nobody will be supporting Lemon returning.

[confucius say]

If we arent in the NCAA Tourney next year- nobody will be supporting Lemon returning.

Correct. And replacing him will be much more affordable

[confucius say]

Who is We?re?

You nor I know who has the pockets deep enough to pay a big chunk of a buyout and limit the financial damage to the program. Nobody has a right to tell someone what to spend their money on and if a few boosters choose Coach buyouts over NIL or BC, that is their prerogative. Don?t come back and say that is a poor decision. The money is not any of yours to earmark. Let?s see what happens in the next few of days.

Already been explored and tabled. Not happening. I'm not defending it, just telling you.

[civildawg]

If we arent in the NCAA Tourney next year- nobody will be supporting Lemon returning.

So just being in a regional is ok now? Man, how the mighty have fallen

[sandjunky]

So just being in a regional is ok now? Man, how the mighty have fallen

It?s the re-imaging of MSU baseball

[R2Dawg]

Whatever, I'm pretty much checked out on baseball for now. Looking much more forward to football and basketball season for the next school year. Ridiculous that after 3 straight trips to Omaha that our coaching staff let the program fall to this anemic level.

This is the most madening thing to me. 3 straight trips to Omaha - never done by anyone in college baseball and we follow that up with two straight goose eggs. That is a fireable offense by itself.

I'm on the fense but lean towards giving one more year. We've already hit bottom - well OM technically bottom but they have a more recent Omaha visit and NC than us so we are there. It can't get much worse. Do you feel lucky?

[R2Dawg]

So just being in a regional is ok now? Man, how the mighty have fallen

Making a regional is the floor for me with the goal to make a super. Obviously the celling is winning a NC. That is a championship program type expectation that is realistic year in and year out

[R2Dawg]

If we arent in the NCAA Tourney next year- nobody will be supporting Lemon returning.

The straw in camel back will be broke if that don't happen.

[BuckyIsAB****]

If we arent in the NCAA Tourney next year- nobody will be supporting Lemon returning.

Anyone supporting it now has no right to ever give a FB coach one cross word

[TrapGame]

In my opinion our new AD just failed his first major test. I think he's in over his head. As the AD you must be ready to make a program altering decision whether you've been here 3 months or three years.

He might make an incredible hire to replace Lemonis next year but I ain't holding my breath.

No bring on football.

[confucius say]

In my opinion our new AD just failed his first major test. I think he's in over his head. As the AD you must be ready to make a program altering decision whether you've been here 3 months or three years.

He might make an incredible hire to replace Lemonis next year but I ain't holding my breath.

No bring on football.

His Being timid does concern me. Not just with this decision.

[Coach34]

So just being in a regional is ok now? Man, how the mighty have fallen

My expectation of making a Super hasnt changed. But you guys are kidding yourselves if you think we are going to fire a coach that made a Regional.

[Coach34]

Anyone supporting it now has no right to ever give a FB coach one cross word

When we win a Natty in football let me know

[Quaoarsking]

If we arent in the NCAA Tourney next year- nobody will be supporting Lemon returning.

Why not? All the arguments you make to bring him back this year will still apply.

[Coach34]

3 strikes and yer out

[BuckyIsAB****]

When we win a Natty in football let me know

Thats the stupidest and lowest hanging fruit you could grab

[BuckyIsAB****]

The natty is a huge reason as to why he should be gone. We dont have such an uphill battle in this sport like we do in FB. Our FB has been natty worthy compared to this bunch for 2 years in a row. Our FB program has been thru more than just about any program ever has in 3 years and they still won and never laid down. All the while playing teams with a much bigger budget. Basically the opposite of what Lemonis and staff have done.

[Todd4State]

The natty is a huge reason as to why he should be gone. We dont have such an uphill battle in this sport like we do in FB. Our FB has been natty worthy compared to this bunch for 2 years in a row. Our FB program has been thru more than just about any program ever has in 3 years and they still won and never laid down. All the while playing teams with a much bigger budget. Basically the opposite of what Lemonis and staff have done.

It complicates things a lot. It has to be taken into account. Especially with it being two years ago. If it's like five years ago then that's completely different.

[Coach34]

The natty is a huge reason as to why he should be gone. We dont have such an uphill battle in this sport like we do in FB. Our FB has been natty worthy compared to this bunch for 2 years in a row. Our FB program has been thru more than just about any program ever has in 3 years and they still won and never laid down. All the while playing teams with a much bigger budget. Basically the opposite of what Lemonis and staff have done.

Baseball recruiting is also very different from other sports as guys normally commit to a program 3 years out. The portal helps but it takes a little longer to transform a roster

[maroonmania]

So just being in a regional is ok now? Man, how the mighty have fallen

It's not really ok but I will actually be somewhat impressed if Lemonis gets us into a regional next year. That would be a pretty significant jump from the past 2 years and will likely mean we have won at least 14 conference games. I personally don't think he can do even that but we'll see.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Baseball recruiting is also very different from other sports as guys normally commit to a program 3 years out. The portal helps but it takes a little longer to transform a roster

Ok. Which is the better roster? The one Lemonis inherited, or the one this season? So it would seem the "transforming of the roster" has been on a downhill trend does it not?

Why should we give a guy more time to fix what he's broken? Why would I trust him to fix it?

"The coaching turnover!!" You'll say. Ok. Cohen could obviously recruit good players. Cann was here 1 season but he was a great recruiter and talent evaluator too, and if memeory serves he kept Cohens guys from flipping in the transition. So that leaves Henderson as a lost recruiting year. I'll give you that. But after that? It's Lemonis. Hes in year 5. So he inherited a stud roster and as his guys have come in we've seen the team get worse and worse with very little player development. Alford and Hines knew they'd play 3B and 1B but did either improve their glove to an SEC standard? No. That's just 2 examples but there's many. And again, hes only had to work around 1 bad class in the Portal era.

Really though he inherited a good roster and it's year 5 and the Portal makes it easier than ever to fix roster holes. Yet here we are. Why would I believe year 6 will be the difference?

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

We fired Moorhead after 2 years. Why shouldn't he have gotten more time to "transform the roster"?

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

3 strikes and yer out

So you think Moorhead should have gotten a year 3?

He finished higher in the SEC both seasons than Lemonis has these past 2. He inherited a good roster but not a top 5 team like Lemonis. Is much harder to recruit good Football class to State than it is baseball. His assistant budget was lower (relatively speaking) than Lemonis has had to work with. Is anything Moorhead is the one who should have been shown grace and gotten a 3rd season.

Seriously though, explain it to me. Why was Moorheads 2 season performance unacceptable, but these past 2 baseball seasons are acceptable?

[BuckyIsAB****]

Baseball recruiting is also very different from other sports as guys normally commit to a program 3 years out. The portal helps but it takes a little longer to transform a roster

Ok?

[Coach34]

We fired Moorhead after 2 years. Why shouldn't he have gotten more time to "transform the roster"?

Joevster was fired for off the field issues like Stands was. He was in no way, shape, or form, fired for his record

[HoopsDawg]

Lemonis inherited a great roster and won a national championship. Moorehead inherited a great roster and went 8-5.

[Coach34]

Ok?

Well that explains the holes in the roster

[Coach34]

Lemonis inherited a great roster and won a national championship. Moorehead inherited a great roster and went 8-5.

exactly

[Pancho]

he is a transformer in reverse

[Todd4State]

This is getting very wordy so I'll just pick a few highlights to address.

1) Fox is Lemonis' Peter Sirmon: and Mullen fired him after 1 season. If he had kept Sirmon into '17 for another 5-7 season Mullen would have been fired.

2) you can't pretend the bad defense is going to go away. We have no 3B, Chance may start for us and he's not known for defense, and Mershon hasn't proven he can play defense better than Forsythe. You also mention Alford maybe coming back as of he's not God awful defensively

3) on Hancock, he "hadn't had any problems before this year" because he hadn't caught before this year to have problems lol. Are you suggesting his arm magically got weaker this past off-season?

4) on the rotation-you can talk about how highly these guys are thought of in MLB circles, the fact is they have to go from "can't go an inning of relief in SEC play" to "SEC starter" in 1 off-season. That's extremely rare. Dohm coming back is great but his SEC ERA was what? He also needs to take a step to become a stud.

1) Did Sirmon win National Assistant of the Year in 2014? Didn't think so. Pretty sure that factored into Lemonis's decision to bring him back.

2) So bringing in better defensive players means the defense will get worse? You do realize that there is a transfer portal right? Who cares about Alford? Odds are he is gone but he hasn't announced anything yet. Even if he comes back there is no guarantee that he starts.

3) Hancock caught most of the midweek games for LoTan. There weren't any issues then. Most of the issues were our pitchers holding runners on.

4) If we get the pitching coach we are rumored to get we should be fine. A big difference between 2015 and 2016 was Dakota Hudson emerged for us. And that team in 2016 didn't exactly have the deepest bullpen. We really only need a few to step up rather than the entire staff. The pitching coach we are rumored to get has a good reputation for turning pitchers around. That should make a huge difference for us.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Well that explains the holes in the roster

Everyone else deals with the same issues right?

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

1) Did Sirmon win National Assistant of the Year in 2014? Didn't think so. Pretty sure that factored into Lemonis's decision to bring him back.

2) So bringing in better defensive players means the defense will get worse? You do realize that there is a transfer portal right? Who cares about Alford? Odds are he is gone but he hasn't announced anything yet. Even if he comes back there is no guarantee that he starts.

3) Hancock caught most of the midweek games for LoTan. There weren't any issues then. Most of the issues were our pitchers holding runners on.

4) If we get the pitching coach we are rumored to get we should be fine. A big difference between 2015 and 2016 was Dakota Hudson emerged for us. And that team in 2016 didn't exactly have the deepest bullpen. We really only need a few to step up rather than the entire staff. The pitching coach we are rumored to get has a good reputation for turning pitchers around. That should make a huge difference for us.

1) even of Sirmon had won it before coming to State, if Mullen had brought him back for 2017 and the defense was league worst AGAIN and we went 5-7 AGAIN Mullen would have been fired. No football HC survives back to back 5-7 seasons well into their tenure. Why would we treat Lemonis any different?

2) I never said bringing in better defensive players would make our defense worse. Please quote where I did. What I DID say is A) you're ASSUMING the new players will be good defensively, B) even if you replaced the guys you blame with plus defenders this year we STILL would have been a well below average D so you can't just blame it all on those 2, and C) LEMONIS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR FIELDING A BAD DEFENSE

3) again I'll ask: Is it your belief Hancock's arm got significantly weaker this past off-season? Because if his arm has always been this weak its on Lemonis for not noticing. Only of it magically went to crap would Lemonis not be at fault.

4) hope you're right and this new PC makes everyone into all Americans. BUT, at almost every school the projects rarely turn out. There's a lot of SEC teams that recruit good, but struggle to field 3 starters, and process several failed projects an off-season to bring new ones in- If it was easy to take a Loo or a Holcombe and turn them into SEC starters in 1 off-season, then every single SEC team would have 3 good starters. I hope I'm wrong but I have massive doubts any of them will take the steps we need, let alone as many as we need.

At the end of the day, all your arguments for keeping Lemonis are based on hypothetical and excuses. We can't blame Lemonis for having a bad defense this season for... reasons, and we should assume we'll get good defenders so we shouldn't worry next year. Yeah Hancock is an awful defensive catcher but we can't expect Lemonis to have known that when he didn't pursue a transfer. Yeah the pitching staff is full of guys who can't go an inning currently but we should assume the new PC will make a full rotation out of them. Yeah Lemonis kept Fox after his keague worst ERA season but Fox had won awards so you can't blame him for being ignorant that his PC is bad at his job.

Ultimately we can play this excuse game for any coach in any sport

[Pancho]

all true facts from the real MSU is us. approaching the total wasting of one year of eligibility of the few decent players we have.

[tcdog70]

Why, why does anyone think we will be better with lemonis? i said fire his ass last year when we bottomed out. Oh no--He will turn it around -some said. Bullshit--Folks he ain't turning $hit around. First thing he could do is go find an infield that can play defense--then get pitchers that pitch to contact. Don't walk 14 players a game. When runners get in scoring position--advance them. Drop the home run or bust attitude. Let's get back to playing MSU baseball-17 the analytics. By not firing Lemonois we will be average at best.

[Coach34]

Everyone else deals with the same issues right?

No. Not every other school had 4 different coaches in the span of two years

[Dawgface]

By not firing Lemonois we will be average at best.

Hey if he improves the team to 'average at best' next year just think......He will get another year. Oh joy!

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Baseball recruiting is done -very roughly- about 3 years before they get to campus. So the Fr and So are Lemonis', the Jr are End of Cann/Henderson/ start of Lemonis, and only the oldest giys are Cohen. But transfers and Juco guys are Lemonis so that complicates things. Fine I'll go look at the roster. Correct whatever is wrong as ill het a few wrong:

Hancock- Cohen
Hoyle- Lemonis
Hunt- Cohen
Simmons- Lemonis
Stinnett- Lemonis
Seibert- Lemonis
Gartman- Lemonis
Nixon- Lemonis
Hujsak- Lemonis
Larry- Lemonis
Ledbetter-Lemonis
Clark- Cann?
Smith- Cann?
Forsythe- Cann?
Davis- Lemonis
Auger- Lemonis
The rest of the roster are Sophomores or freshman so they're Lemonis.

Point is, this is pretty clearly Lemonis's team. He's been here 5 years. The Portal exists.

The FACT is that as Cohen and Cann guys age out the team gets worse and worse.

[R2Dawg]

Baseball recruiting is done -very roughly- about 3 years before they get to campus. So the Fr and So are Lemonis', the Jr are End of Cann/Henderson/ start of Lemonis, and only the oldest giys are Cohen. But transfers and Juco guys are Lemonis so that complicates things. Fine I'll go look at the roster. Correct whatever is wrong as ill het a few wrong:

Hancock- Cohen
Hoyle- Lemonis
Hunt- Cohen
Simmons- Lemonis
Stinnett- Lemonis
Seibert- Lemonis
Gartman- Lemonis
Nixon- Lemonis
Hujsak- Lemonis
Larry- Lemonis
Ledbetter-Lemonis
Clark- Cann?
Smith- Cann?
Forsythe- Cann?
Davis- Lemonis
Auger- Lemonis
The rest of the roster are Sophomores or freshman so they're Lemonis.

Point is, this is pretty clearly Lemonis's team. He's been here 5 years. The Portal exists.

The FACT is that as Cohen and Cann guys age out the team gets worse and worse.

Boy it does appear that way.

[Goldendawg]

No. Not every other school had 4 different coaches in the span of two years

This didn't seem to be an issue when we won the NC with all those 4 coaches' players. So now it is an excuse for the last two years when Lemonis has now been HC five years? Please explain. Thanks.

[confucius say]

Baseball recruiting is done -very roughly- about 3 years before they get to campus. So the Fr and So are Lemonis', the Jr are End of Cann/Henderson/ start of Lemonis, and only the oldest giys are Cohen. But transfers and Juco guys are Lemonis so that complicates things. Fine I'll go look at the roster. Correct whatever is wrong as ill het a few wrong:

Hancock- Cohen
Hoyle- Lemonis
Hunt- Cohen
Simmons- Lemonis
Stinnett- Lemonis
Seibert- Lemonis
Gartman- Lemonis
Nixon- Lemonis
Hujsak- Lemonis
Larry- Lemonis
Ledbetter-Lemonis
Clark- Cann?
Smith- Cann?
Forsythe- Cann?
Davis- Lemonis
Auger- Lemonis
The rest of the roster are Sophomores or freshman so they're Lemonis.

Point is, this is pretty clearly Lemonis's team. He's been here 5 years. The Portal exists.

The FACT is that as Cohen and Cann guys age out the team gets worse and worse.

Not offensively. The team has gotten better offensively. Worse on the mound. From the twitters today:

Sec games only

2021
Hit .266; slugged .416; OBP .354
2023
Hit .266; slugged .486; OBP .366

All games

2021
Hit .278; slugged .439; OBP .375
2023
Hit .286; slugged .505; OBP .399

[confucius say]

This didn't seem to be an issue when we won the NC with all those 4 coaches' players. So now it is an excuse for the last two years when Lemonis has now been HC five years? Please explain. Thanks.

Bc when we had 4 coaches in 4 years our recruiting suffered and those guys are now your juniors. We totally whiffed on pitching for 2 cycles. Our offense is better than when we won a NC.

[The Federalist Engineer]

Bc when we had 4 coaches in 4 years our recruiting suffered and those guys are now your juniors. We totally whiffed on pitching for 2 cycles. Our offense is better than when we won a NC.

No man, these recruiting classes have been rated super high. Maybe we got all the hidden head-cases, that can be argued. These recruiting groups since 2018 have been loaded. Cohen almost never got a top-100 recruit or an MLB-200 player. Fristoe and Tepper were blue chips. Cijntje is rated higher than JT Ginn. You would not know it by their ERAs, Opposition Batting Averages, K/BB ratios, or win-loss records.

Until recently, MSU had zero players in MLB-200, it was all Vandy, LSU, Florida, and some Ole Miss. Until recently, Cohen's classes were groups that we called all-Midgets lineups. First guy off the bus was Cole Gordon then a string of small guys. But Pirtle was a great collegiate player.

Henderson had to maneuver in Super Regionals with Payton Plumlee, Billingsley, Spencer Price, Riley Self, Carlisle Koesttler, Zach Neff, and Cole Gordon. These non-ranked warrior-type kids probably would not meet Fox's velo and spin rate requirements in recent days. He seems to prefer Walling, Hardin, Yntema, and Stinnett types with double digit ERAs that can't even make Hoover, much less a Super Regional.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Not offensively. The team has gotten better offensively. Worse on the mound. From the twitters today:

Sec games only

2021
Hit .266; slugged .416; OBP .354
2023
Hit .266; slugged .486; OBP .366

All games

2021
Hit .278; slugged .439; OBP .375
2023
Hit .286; slugged .505; OBP .399

This is true in a vacuum, but you've got to remember this season had the tighter strike zones and ALL offenses saw a benefit to it, and pitching staffs saw the ERA go up. You've got to look at the relative stats, how we finished in the SEC.

SEC only stats:

2023: 9th in BA, 3rd in SLG, 10th in OBP, 10th in runs scored.

2021: 7th in BA, 8th in SLG, 6th in OBP, T5th in runs scored.

The '21 team was good at scoring runs because that '21 team had DUDES on it, and they nutted up when they needed to. The secret State sauce left with TA and Rowdy and Lemonis never learned the recipe

[BuckyIsAB****]

No. Not every other school had 4 different coaches in the span of two years

The teams that dealt with actual problems won. Lemonis teams with no real adversity have came in 13th and 14th. Not a good argument

[BuckyIsAB****]

Bc when we had 4 coaches in 4 years our recruiting suffered and those guys are now your juniors. We totally whiffed on pitching for 2 cycles. Our offense is better than when we won a NC.

Our offense currently is no way better

[smootness]

My expectation of making a Super hasnt changed. But you guys are kidding yourselves if you think we are going to fire a coach that made a Regional.

That's exactly the problem. If he just squeaks into a regional next year, that's still 3 straight years of below-standard results, and we'll have to keep him yet again.

[smootness]

Lemonis inherited a great roster and won a national championship. Moorehead inherited a great roster and went 8-5.

Yes, and obviously no one was ever going to call for Lemonis to go after he won a national title.

The problem is, he inherited a roster and won a national title with it. Then he built a roster that has royally sucked two years in a row.

[smootness]

This is true in a vacuum, but you've got to remember this season had the tighter strike zones and ALL offenses saw a benefit to it, and pitching staffs saw the ERA go up. You've got to look at the relative stats, how we finished in the SEC.

SEC only stats:

2023: 9th in BA, 3rd in SLG, 10th in OBP, 10th in runs scored.

2021: 7th in BA, 8th in SLG, 6th in OBP, T5th in runs scored.

The '21 team was good at scoring runs because that '21 team had DUDES on it, and they nutted up when they needed to. The secret State sauce left with TA and Rowdy and Lemonis never learned the recipe

You are utterly dominating this thread.

[Pancho]

amen

[confucius say]

This is true in a vacuum, but you've got to remember this season had the tighter strike zones and ALL offenses saw a benefit to it, and pitching staffs saw the ERA go up. You've got to look at the relative stats, how we finished in the SEC.

SEC only stats:

2023: 9th in BA, 3rd in SLG, 10th in OBP, 10th in runs scored.

2021: 7th in BA, 8th in SLG, 6th in OBP, T5th in runs scored.

The '21 team was good at scoring runs because that '21 team had DUDES on it, and they nutted up when they needed to. The secret State sauce left with TA and Rowdy and Lemonis never learned the recipe

That's a Fair point. But if we're going to use relative stats, you have to look across all games because all the zones were tighter and all the balls were juiced, not just during in sec games.

2023: 114 in BA; 45 in SLG; 54 in OBP; 71 in runs per game

2021: 89 in BA; 81 in SLG; 84 in OBP; 37 in runs per game

Outside of runs, 2023 has the better relative line by a good bit. The anomaly is the runs scored, a stat you would expect to track obp and slugging, otherwise knows as OPS. Maybe the 2021 team was just more clutch or did little things better to move runners.

[The Federalist Engineer]

That's a Fair point. But if we're going to use relative stats, you have to look across all games because all the zones were tighter and all the balls were juiced, not just during in sec games.

2023: 114 in BA; 45 in SLG; 54 in OBP; 71 in runs per game

2021: 89 in BA; 81 in SLG; 84 in OBP; 37 in runs per game

Outside of runs, 2023 has the better relative line by a good bit. The anomaly is the runs scored, a stat you would expect to track obp and slugging, otherwise knows as OPS. Maybe the 2021 team was just more clutch or did little things better to move runners.

Conference Only Stats:

2021 and 2023 hitting were 269 and 270 with runners on. MSU 2023 hit 252 versus Lefties (10 pegs lower than the SEC average) but 246 in 2021 (also 10 pegs lower than the SEC average).

With base loaded 297 in 2021 but only 174 in 2023. MSU was last in bases-loaded batting in 2023.

Basically losing the SEC POY and having a horrible pitching year is the difference. But SEC teams improved 10 points overall, MSU did not improve.

Notably, SEC LHH batted 323 on MSU and SEC opponents hit 303 with runners on.

Message Pitching is horrible in 2023 and Hitting is sustainably slightly below average. Fox used to carry the Goat. The Fox went sour, the Goat could not pickup any performance

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

That's a Fair point. But if we're going to use relative stats, you have to look across all games because all the zones were tighter and all the balls were juiced, not just during in sec games.

2023: 114 in BA; 45 in SLG; 54 in OBP; 71 in runs per game

2021: 89 in BA; 81 in SLG; 84 in OBP; 37 in runs per game

Outside of runs, 2023 has the better relative line by a good bit. The anomaly is the runs scored, a stat you would expect to track obp and slugging, otherwise knows as OPS. Maybe the 2021 team was just more clutch or did little things better to move runners.

I understand that OPS is the best predictor of runs. But RUNS are what matters at the end of the day.

Every other stat is only useful for forward looking projection of who will score more runs the rest of the season. For hindsight, for seasons in the books, all those stats are meaningless because RUNS are what matter

Ultimately, we've been mediocre at hitting for years despite having above average SEC classes... Jake G just isn't an elite hitting coach. He's competent but not much else