Recent Run versus Pass discussion

[coachnorm]

Some input on the recent pass vs run discussion of late. Some fellow elitedoggers had passionate input in this regard. I am just trying to promote some motivation to get deeper input. I first want to state when comparing, let us say, 60% pass versus 40% run, does that relate to 60% offensive production compared to 40% offensive production or percent of plays run? In short, what is the end game.

When an offense has a combined scheme and match-up pass attack, there will be big chunk plays. In the match-up passing game the run after catch prayer is less emphasized. Some offenses can get more production at 45% than others at 60% because of different end game visions within the programs. Simply, if two offenses run 100 plays during a game and one completes 45 passes for 450 yards and the other 60 passes for 450, which one is the better pass attack? I have been saying ad-nauseum, that any offense that throws excessive check downs, swing passes, and excessive screens is a garbage offense because of lack of development, genetic inferiority, or marginal coaching performance.

There is no verifiable rule or circumstance that proves ones 60% exceeded another's 45%. If the 45%ers are launching deeper than the 60%ers and winning the ball, 45% production can exceed 60%. This is achieved by NOT BURNING practice and development time on check downs, swing passes, and excessive screens. Practice 50-50 balls to win?

I have watched (know it all) head coaches and offensive coordinators compliment a quarterback for throwing a check down during practice? I have seen this happen, many times in practices, and just roll my eyes back. This happens at both the college and high school level BTW. Excessive check downs, swing passes, and screens during practice spoil game day performances because they burn up the real passing game needs. Practice 50-50 balls? BTW these scheme geniuses never take responsibility for their shortcomings after the damage has been done.

Another statistic that should be inputted is the percentage of big plays being executed. If an offense is a 60% pass 40% run without big plays, is it actually the same as a 60% pass 40% run with big plays? Something else to be inputted is if the play caller is in an echo chamber and not realizing he is lacking production with what he is calling. Four completions for 20 yards is not as valuable as one completion for 40. If the opposition play caller understands this and the other play caller is just happy with four completions, someone is in trouble. Under this scenario do the percentages even matter? If a play caller is imprisoned within that echo chamber, the offense would be better off running the ball more.

In short, when talking percentages of the run versus the pass, a more descriptive analysis of the passing game percentage content could be helpful. Is quantity being substituted for quality in the pass game, and if so is that quantity being extracted from the run game production?

A brief example of a play caller being situationally aware is last seasons Tennessee versus Alabama game. Alabama threw 52 times for 455 yards and Tennessee 31 times for 385 yards. Nick Saban specifically said they could not cover the long ball. Just think the difference that would have outcome if Tennessee burned practice time with check downs, swing passes, and excessive screen game?

[Coach34]

Good job Norm. Really enjoy your takes

[MrCoachKlein]

This was my only gripe against Mullen. Wish he would've thrown more 50/50 stuff when teams loaded box against us or gone over the middle more

[Goldendawg]

Gotta have Jimmys and Joes, good coaches, and fit the O to your players after a coaching change until you hopefully get your guys:

Loved the veer under Tyler until OM and the NCAA ruined our run.

Loved the Bellard Wishbone when we had the guys and every one ran it until the D's caught up.

Loved Jackie and his success and teaching us to win again until the OM/NCAA witch hunt helped the wheels fall off.

Love the O under Dan especially the run to #1,except for Hollaway up the middle and QB draws that the D looked for on 3rd and long.

Despised the Croom West Coast and JoMo's get the play off with 4 or 5 seconds left so DL can tee off.

Didn't know much about pure air raid until we hire Coach Leach , but it bored me as it seemed to be a short pass, ball control offense.

In all these offenses, the defenses caught on or eventually catch on, unless you adapt, adjust, or change as necessary.

Looking forward to a change with the Zac/Barbay offense that I hope will keep defenses on their toes and be successful in 2023 AND BEYOND.

HAIL STATE!

[Todd4State]

Some input on the recent pass vs run discussion of late. Some fellow elitedoggers had passionate input in this regard. I am just trying to promote some motivation to get deeper input. I first want to state when comparing, let us say, 60% pass versus 40% run, does that relate to 60% offensive production compared to 40% offensive production or percent of plays run? In short, what is the end game.

When an offense has a combined scheme and match-up pass attack, there will be big chunk plays. In the match-up passing game the run after catch prayer is less emphasized. Some offenses can get more production at 45% than others at 60% because of different end game visions within the programs. Simply, if two offenses run 100 plays during a game and one completes 45 passes for 450 yards and the other 60 passes for 450, which one is the better pass attack? I have been saying ad-nauseum, that any offense that throws excessive check downs, swing passes, and excessive screens is a garbage offense because of lack of development, genetic inferiority, or marginal coaching performance.

There is no verifiable rule or circumstance that proves ones 60% exceeded another's 45%. If the 45%ers are launching deeper than the 60%ers and winning the ball, 45% production can exceed 60%. This is achieved by NOT BURNING practice and development time on check downs, swing passes, and excessive screens. Practice 50-50 balls to win?

I have watched (know it all) head coaches and offensive coordinators compliment a quarterback for throwing a check down during practice? I have seen this happen, many times in practices, and just roll my eyes back. This happens at both the college and high school level BTW. Excessive check downs, swing passes, and screens during practice spoil game day performances because they burn up the real passing game needs. Practice 50-50 balls? BTW these scheme geniuses never take responsibility for their shortcomings after the damage has been done.

Another statistic that should be inputted is the percentage of big plays being executed. If an offense is a 60% pass 40% run without big plays, is it actually the same as a 60% pass 40% run with big plays? Something else to be inputted is if the play caller is in an echo chamber and not realizing he is lacking production with what he is calling. Four completions for 20 yards is not as valuable as one completion for 40. If the opposition play caller understands this and the other play caller is just happy with four completions, someone is in trouble. Under this scenario do the percentages even matter? If a play caller is imprisoned within that echo chamber, the offense would be better off running the ball more.

In short, when talking percentages of the run versus the pass, a more descriptive analysis of the passing game percentage content could be helpful. Is quantity being substituted for quality in the pass game, and if so is that quantity being extracted from the run game production?

A brief example of a play caller being situationally aware is last seasons Tennessee versus Alabama game. Alabama threw 52 times for 455 yards and Tennessee 31 times for 385 yards. Nick Saban specifically said they could not cover the long ball. Just think the difference that would have outcome if Tennessee burned practice time with check downs, swing passes, and excessive screen game?

Understand from this 60%er that analytics generally prefers throwing the ball deep the majority of that 60% of the time. So if you are throwing it deep 45% of the time you're generally not throwing it enough to maximize your offense.

Match up is only good if you have a guy that can win the match up and the QB correctly picks that guy. A short pass can be turned into a long gain at times as well. It isn't just restricted to a short gain every time.

You need some high percentage constraint plays that are easy completions at times to move the sticks. Checking down is better than an incomplete pass as 2 yards even is better than none.

Basically- there is a time and place for all things in football and all things can be underdone or overdone.

[coachnorm]

Understand from this 60%er that analytics generally prefers throwing the ball deep the majority of that 60% of the time. So if you are throwing it deep 45% of the time you're generally not throwing it enough to maximize your offense.

Match up is only good if you have a guy that can win the match up and the QB correctly picks that guy. A short pass can be turned into a long gain at times as well. It isn't just restricted to a short gain every time.

You need some high percentage constraint plays that are easy completions at times to move the sticks. Checking down is better than an incomplete pass as 2 yards even is better than none.

Basically- there is a time and place for all things in football and all things can be underdone or overdone.

Sadly, I became familiar with punting following CHECK DOWNS. Figuratively, if you have three series and you check down and get tackled, you punt three times. At the same time, if you throw deep and complete one, you punt two times? Statistically 3 completions with three punts, or one completion and two punts? This was relatable to Mississippi State Football last season.

[KB21]

In my years of watching Mississippi State, and football in general, I?ve seen teams run the ball three straight times and then punt far more often than I?ve seen a team complete three passes and have to punt only to hear some cockamamie bullshit idea about how running the ball let?s you impose your will on the opponent.

[coachnorm]

In my years of watching Mississippi State, and football in general, I?ve seen teams run the ball three straight times and then punt far more often than I?ve seen a team complete three passes and have to punt only to hear some cockamamie bullshit idea about how running the ball let?s you impose your will on the opponent.

I am asserting that the check downs, swing passes, and screens can not be a point of emphasis. I will be happy if they are deemphasized and mostly replaced. I will be happy if they are replaced with either run plays or longer passes. I would strongly support your point of contention if RaRa and Ducking did not leave the field and 20 to 30 check downs, swing passes, or screens were replaced with contested vertical passes. Under last years model at Mississippi State, the offense would have been better with run plays substituted for the junk passes. Remember my first choice is substituting the junk passes with verticals with RaRa and Ducking and second replacing the junk passes with runs.

[msstate7]

OM has finished top 3 in sec in total offense in conference games the last 5 years. The last 4, they've been run heavy. You don't have to be pass heavy to be successful in the sec. OM and ark are examples of this, and they're good examples bc we match their talent level. And I'm not saying you have to be run heavy.

[BuckyIsAB****]

RaRa and ducking will crawl in a hole and hide just like they did all year. With a few flashes every now and then when teams would give them free releases or whiff

[Leroy Jenkins]

I am asserting that the check downs, swing passes, and screens can not be a point of emphasis. I will be happy if they are deemphasized and mostly replaced. I will be happy if they are replaced with either run plays or longer passes. I would strongly support your point of contention if RaRa and Ducking did not leave the field and 20 to 30 check downs, swing passes, or screens were replaced with contested vertical passes. Under last years model at Mississippi State, the offense would have been better with run plays substituted for the junk passes. Remember my first choice is substituting the junk passes with verticals with RaRa and Ducking and second replacing the junk passes with runs.

I assume most people think of "check down" as a post-snap safety valve decision, not a play call.

[Maroonthirteen]

I don't think check downs or swing passes and screens were a point of emphasis. It was just what the defense gave or the QB decided to throw to. Leachs offense was what... 8-9 plays? 9 pass routes?? That's close to accurate. Which every play had the option of a check down. Maybe that's what you mean.

Our best offenses were 1994 and 2015. We were balanced. But more importantly, 94 we had 3 stud rbs and a nfl wr. 2015 a nfl qb. Run that offense every year.

[coachnorm]

I assume most people think of "check down" as a post-snap safety valve decision, not a play call.

Winners launch contested catches and WIN. Losers, under the same conditions toss check downs. You can look at hundreds of games on Youtube and see game WINNING contested catches. Also you can see game loosing check downs. The end game is decisions are being made due to program evolution be it pre snap or progression reading.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Winners launch contested catches and WIN. Losers, under the same conditions toss check downs. You can look at hundreds of games on Youtube and see game WINNING contested catches. Also you can see game loosing check downs. The end game is decisions are being made due to program evolution be it pre snap or progression reading.

I know. No one is arguing for more check downs. It's a last resort, only slightly better than throwing the ball away. You were saying the check downs should have been runs. I was saying no one knew they would be check downs until after the snap. Hell someone here called Dak "Checkdown Charlie" for 2 years.

[coachnorm]

I know. No one is arguing for more check downs. It's a last resort, only slightly better than throwing the ball away. You were saying the check downs should have been runs. I was saying no one knew they would be check downs until after the snap. Hell someone here called Dak "Checkdown Charlie" for 2 years.

First of all could you accept that I am replying to you with upmost respect. I believe that you are on point in may regards and I am going to ask you and fellow elitedoggers to go on YouTube and observe high school football, college football, and NFL. Could you look at some of the great match-up pass plays that impacted the games. After observing could you take notice that the quarterback was 100% committed to the throw pre snap. Could you take notice that there probably was no provision for check downs because of the 100% match-up commitment. Just look at the quarterback vision for clarity. That is what you will see on Alabama versus Tennessee or even some YouTube clips of Starkville HS Football hi-lites. To do this type of offense, a program has to develop receivers like I see with Starkville HS Football with a head coach with NFL experience.

[Todd4State]

Sadly, I became familiar with punting following CHECK DOWNS. Figuratively, if you have three series and you check down and get tackled, you punt three times. At the same time, if you throw deep and complete one, you punt two times? Statistically 3 completions with three punts, or one completion and two punts? This was relatable to Mississippi State Football last season.

I don't believe there are very many plays where the check down is the first option. Normally if you are checking down it's because you're trying to throw it deep to start with and if it isn't there then you throw the check down only after you go through your progressions. If you run a play without a check down your QB is going to have to either throw it away, scramble, or take a sack. Only one of those options is potentially positive and it involves your QB most likely taking a hit.

Really comes down to EPA. A 2 yard play for a check down has a higher EPA than an incompletion.

[Leroy Jenkins]

First of all could you accept that I am replying to you with upmost respect. I believe that you are on point in may regards and I am going to ask you and fellow elitedoggers to go on YouTube and observe high school football, college football, and NFL. Could you look at some of the great match-up pass plays that impacted the games. After observing could you take notice that the quarterback was 100% committed to the throw pre snap. Could you take notice that there probably was no provision for check downs because of the 100% match-up commitment. Just look at the quarterback vision for clarity. That is what you will see on Alabama versus Tennessee or even some YouTube clips of Starkville HS Football hi-lites. To do this type of offense, a program has to develop receivers like I see with Starkville HS Football with a head coach with NFL experience.

Lol. I think we are talking past each other in agreement.

[yjnkdawg]

OM has finished top 3 in sec in total offense in conference games the last 5 years. The last 4, they've been run heavy. You don't have to be pass heavy to be successful in the sec. OM and ark are examples of this, and they're good examples bc we match their talent level. And I'm not saying you have to be run heavy.

I think you need to just take what the defense gives you. Whether that be more a passing attack or running attack in a specific game. I think some are hung up on this we have to pass 60% of the time or run it 60% of the time to be successful.

[Really Clark?]

I think you need to just take what the defense gives you. Whether that be more a passing attack or running attack in a specific game. I think some are hung up on this we have to pass 60% of the time or run it 60% of the time to be successful.

^^^Correct Answer^^^

[Jarius]

I think you need to just take what the defense gives you. Whether that be more a passing attack or running attack in a specific game. I think some are hung up on this we have to pass 60% of the time or run it 60% of the time to be successful.

Well of course you are right. This is common sense. Throwing or running the ball just because you think you need to do so to hit a certain % is one of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard. You run the best play for the look you are given every single time, unless you are in a situation where you are trying to bleed clock or are in hurry up.

[BorneDawg]

Gotta have Jimmys and Joes, good coaches, and fit the O to your players after a coaching change until you hopefully get your guys:

Loved the veer under Tyler until OM and the NCAA ruined our run.

Loved the Bellard Wishbone when we had the guys and every one ran it until the D's caught up.

Loved Jackie and his success and teaching us to win again until the OM/NCAA witch hunt helped the wheels fall off.

Love the O under Dan especially the run to #1,except for Hollaway up the middle and QB draws that the D looked for on 3rd and long.

Despised the Croom West Coast and JoMo's get the play off with 4 or 5 seconds left so DL can tee off.

Didn't know much about pure air raid until we hire Coach Leach , but it bored me as it seemed to be a short pass, ball control offense.

In all these offenses, the defenses caught on or eventually catch on, unless you adapt, adjust, or change as necessary.

Looking forward to a change with the Zac/Barbay offense that I hope will keep defenses on their toes and be successful in 2023 AND BEYOND.

HAIL STATE!

It still. wont let me rep you even though i've repped plenty others ....... idk