Dang! TJ for Pico

[State82]

Hate it for him.

[BrunswickDawg]

Hate it for him.

And it's late enough that we might not see him again before 2025.

[State82]

And it's late enough that we might not see him again before 2025.

That's the first thing I thought of when I heard about it. This UCL business is just out of control.

[StarkVegasSteve]

And it's late enough that we might not see him again before 2025.

I wonder if we will ever see him toe the rubber at DNF again.

[Commercecomet24]

Should've already had the surgery. Once that elbow starts creaking might as well get it fixed because it'll have to be sooner or later, might as well be sooner.

[BrunswickDawg]

Should've already had the surgery. Once that elbow starts creaking might as well get it fixed because it'll have to be sooner or later, might as well be sooner.

Yeah, but you know players don't think like that. They will try anything to get back on the field and avoid surgery. My knees remind me of this every few days.

[Leroy Jenkins]

With the success rate of the surgery I just don't understand the "I'm going to try and rehab my way through it" wait-and-see mentality. Hell, everyone on this board knows that. I consider myself and amateur expert having labrum and rotator cuff repairs. Lol.

Now, I will say we don't know the particulars of his situation, but in hindsight it ain't a good look.

"In many cases, injuries to tendon and ligaments such as common sprains and strains heal without surgical intervention. However, the process is often slow and results in the formation of inferior scar tissue, which can take years to remodel into more functional tissue"

-Journal of Orthopedic Research

[Mjoelner34]

And it's late enough that we might not see him again before 2025.

The only silver lining to that is that Foxhall should be lone gone by then.

[KB21]

What is this? Four since the start of last season? Landon Sims, Stone Simmons, Brooks Auger, and now Pico Kohn. Have I missed anyone?

[Commercecomet24]

Yeah, but you know players don't think like that. They will try anything to get back on the field and avoid surgery. My knees remind me of this every few days.

I'm right there with you! I've got a bad knee and ankle from playing days. Just went through it with my son too, who's college career got derailed with a labrum tear. UCL though you should go ahead and get the surgery because while you may be able to play through some injuries, ucl isn't one of them.

[Saltydog]

Why wait this late? I mean, he's been out the whole year........Any chance he possibly had to return even late next year is now highly unlikely........

[Lord McBuckethead]

I go in Wednesday for what I expect is a torn Labrum and/or partially torn bicept tendon. Right arm. How long is the rehab? How long before I can wipe my ass with my strong arm again?

[KB21]

I go in Wednesday for what I expect is a torn Labrum and/or partially torn bicept tendon. Right arm. How long is the rehab? How long before I can wipe my ass with my strong arm again?

3 months of OP rehab.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Yeah, but you know players don't think like that. They will try anything to get back on the field and avoid surgery. My knees remind me of this every few days.

That's why they have to be protected from themselves. We do it every day with pitch counts, rest intervals, etc.

[EdwardDrayton]

I go in Wednesday for what I expect is a torn Labrum and/or partially torn bicept tendon. Right arm. How long is the rehab? How long before I can wipe my ass with my strong arm again?

It depends. My buddy just had his right shoulder repaired, labrum and bicep tendon. Was told three months also but once they got in there the damage was not as extensive as first thought from the scans. Now probably six to eight weeks.

[Pancho]

looks like foxhall has some Wes Johnson qualities to him along with not throwing strikes.......

[CaptainObvious]

looks like foxhall has some Wes Johnson qualities to him along with not throwing strikes.......

That?s a deadly combination. When should we expect 100 mph Skenes to go under the knife since he works under the tutelage of Wes Johnson?

[KOdawg1]

I don't think it's a Foxhall or Wes Johnson issue...

This happening all across baseball.

Travel ball, poor mechanics, and over-use are just some of the factors that go into it.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Well he definitely does not need to be on the 2024 roster taking up a spot. MSU should pay to fix his elbow and invite him to try back out in fall 2024. That?s part of our issue, we have too many dead or not 100% healthy arms taking up roster spots

[Activated Alpha]

Is LSU, Florida, or Vandy dealing with as many arm injuries over the past season and a half? Because if so then I?ll believe it?s not just an MSU issue/pitching coach

[Commercecomet24]

I don't think it's a Foxhall or Wes Johnson issue...

This happening all across baseball.

Travel ball, poor mechanics, and over-use are just some of the factors that go into it.

This. It's all over baseball. Heck there's a teenagers have TJ. This is one thing you can't blame on Foxhall

[Pancho]

I totally agree and still think Wes got a raw deal hear with all the criticism. He's one of the best for a reason and I know several high school coaches in this state who follow his daily throwing programs to a T.

[KOdawg1]

I totally agree and still think Wes got a raw deal hear with all the criticism. He's one of the best for a reason and I know several high school coaches in this state who follow his daily throwing programs to a T.

Yeah Wes is a fantastic pitching coach. I wish we still had him

[Mjoelner34]

I totally agree and still think Wes got a raw deal hear with all the criticism. He's one of the best for a reason and I know several high school coaches in this state who follow his daily throwing programs to a T.

^^^THIS^^^

[Todd4State]

The Tommy John stuff actually doesn't bother me as much as all of the minor injuries we've had honestly.

[Activated Alpha]

Are all of these minor injuries and injuries requiring surgery happening to other SEC pitching staffs? Feels like we have had a massive amount over the past year and a half compared to other teams

[Pancho]

That might be where the foxhall effect comes into play.

[Todd4State]

Are all of these minor injuries and injuries requiring surgery happening to other SEC pitching staffs? Feels like we have had a massive amount over the past year and a half compared to other teams

To me it doesn't seem like we've really had all that many Tommy John surgeries but we've had a LOT of minor injuries.

[Maroonthirteen]

Seems to me, that Kohn throws the ball with his arm only. He doesn't seem to get his lower half involved. Looking at his delivery, he doesn't seem to transfer all his weight to his landing foot and he is standing straight up at release. I can see how that type delivery puts a lot of stress on the arm.

[SilentSteel16]

Is LSU, Florida, or Vandy dealing with as many arm injuries over the past season and a half? Because if so then I?ll believe it?s not just an MSU issue/pitching coach

Put it this way, there is a group out of Chicago that monitor the IR for the MLB. All club PTs have to by the collective bargaining have to relay their team info to it for data collection. I have not seen the data post Covid but prior it showed that 65 percent of all IR players were pitchers and 77 percent of those pitchers had arm injuries. With almost 80 percent of those arm injuries being elbow related.

The same group concluded that age 19 is the most critical age for developing pitchers. There is even talk about moving the MLB season back a month so that players can slowly ramp up conditions to try and help with the problem.

Short answer, NO this is not just a MState problem. You are just more hyper focused on our team vs every other team and MLB club

[SilentSteel16]

2018— 56
2019– 58.4
2020– 61
2021 -65 percent

These are the percentages of all MLB players that went on IR during those MLB seasons that were pitchers. See the trend??

[StarkVegasSteve]

To me it doesn't seem like we've really had all that many Tommy John surgeries but we've had a LOT of minor injuries.

We've had 4 in the last 13 months. That's not exactly great. Now nothing will touch the 6 or 7 we had between May 16 and March 17 but this is bordering on that. I don't know if it's a S&C thing, a Foxhall thing, or nowadays by the time these guys get to campus they've thrown 200 innings a year for 6 years. I lean towards it being the last thing, but I truly don't know.

[Commercecomet24]

Put it this way, there is a group out of Chicago that monitor the IR for the MLB. All club PTs have to by the collective bargaining have to relay their team info to it for data collection. I have not seen the data post Covid but prior it showed that 65 percent of all IR players were pitchers and 77 percent of those pitchers had arm injuries. With almost 80 percent of those arm injuries being elbow related.

The same group concluded that age 19 is the most critical age for developing pitchers. There is even talk about moving the MLB season back a month so that players can slowly ramp up conditions to try and help with the problem.

Short answer, NO this is not just a MState problem. You are just more hyper focused on our team vs every other team and MLB club

This! I know for a fact Steel knows what he's talking about. He's dealt with this stuff on a high level. This is a baseball problem not a State problem. It's overuse and abuse at a younger age and the effects are cumulative. A lot of pitchers arms are compromised before they get to us. There's 13-14 year olds that are having tj.

[Activated Alpha]

Put it this way, there is a group out of Chicago that monitor the IR for the MLB. All club PTs have to by the collective bargaining have to relay their team info to it for data collection. I have not seen the data post Covid but prior it showed that 65 percent of all IR players were pitchers and 77 percent of those pitchers had arm injuries. With almost 80 percent of those arm injuries being elbow related.

The same group concluded that age 19 is the most critical age for developing pitchers. There is even talk about moving the MLB season back a month so that players can slowly ramp up conditions to try and help with the problem.

Short answer, NO this is not just a MState problem. You are just more hyper focused on our team vs every other team and MLB club

I don't care about MLB problem. Do the other SEC pitching staffs compared to ours. That's the math I want to see. If we are all pretty much equal, then I can live with it. If not, then what the hell are we doing? Not sure if we can even get that type of info at a collegiate level

[Homedawg]

Weighted balls and anyone that uses them are going to have more. Wes Johnson uses them a ton. Foxhall uses them a little. Butch Thompson uses them none. Do I believe they help with velo? Yes. Do I believe they lead to more ucl's yes. Are they responsible for all of them? No. But the driving force is velo. Bigger, stronger, and the ucl is a rubber band and the weighted balls add to the problem.

[State82]

There's 13-14 year olds that are having tj.

That is just mind boggling. Parent issue right there. Not keeping abreast as to what is going on with Junior on the athletic scene.

[Leroy Jenkins]

This. It's all over baseball. Heck there's a teenagers have TJ. This is one thing you can't blame on Foxhall

Bleacher report did a study that said roughly 120 of 360 (1/3rd) of MLB pitchers have had TJ at some point in their lives.

How in the hell did the old timers throw so many innings back in the day? In the Cy Young days they threw 400 innings a season. Now if you throw 200 innings you would lead MLB in innings pitched. These days it's all about the velo.

[Maroonthirteen]

How in the hell did the old timers throw so many innings back in the day? velo.

They probably all needed the surgery. However it wasn't available.

Maybe that's the problem today. The surgery is to available??????

[SilentSteel16]

The old timers were not throwing 100 as a SP and they also were not playing year round. Their Spring Training consisted of drinking and whoring around in AR.

Like someone said earlier, the problem is not just Weighted balls, it is the kids arms being blown out before they are even 20 years old.

Also, the group I am speaking of collects data on not only MLB but MiLB which is also calculated into their numbers. So yes, their numbers do correlate considering their MiLB staffs are directed very pointedly about number of innings thrown in the minors. They have taken kids out of game with no hitters in the 7th to save the arm strain.

As far as other SEC schools, those numbers are relative because it doesn’t take into account arm strain prior to entering college, but yes, Arkansas and LSU are beating us on total number of ACE pitchers they have lost over the last several years. Ole Miss is even higher than our numbers overall. LSU is going to lose Skenes before regionals, just wait and see. It is a roll of the dice with any kid who was or is a SPECIALIZED pitcher only coming out of HS, that is why most MLB teams ask position players when the last time they pitched was.

[BrunswickDawg]

The old timers were not throwing 100 as a SP and they also were not playing year round. Their Spring Training consisted of drinking and whoring around in AR.

Like someone said earlier, the problem is not just Weighted balls, it is the kids arms being blown out before they are even 20 years old.

Also, the group I am speaking of collects data on not only MLB but MiLB which is also calculated into their numbers. So yes, their numbers do correlate considering their MiLB staffs are directed very pointedly about number of innings thrown in the minors. They have taken kids out of game with no hitters in the 7th to save the arm strain.

As far as other SEC schools, those numbers are relative because it doesn’t take into account arm strain prior to entering college, but yes, Arkansas and LSU are beating us on total number of ACE pitchers they have lost over the last several years. Ole Miss is even higher than our numbers overall. LSU is going to lose Skenes before regionals, just wait and see. It is a roll of the dice with any kid who was or is a SPECIALIZED pitcher only coming out of HS, that is why most MLB teams ask position players when the last time they pitched was.

Steel and CC24 - just interested in an opinion on what y'all see -

Back when us 50 somethings were coming up, we threw a ton of pitches. If I just think back to high school - we'd start practice early January, 3 games a week from mid Feb-late April with your ace pitching likely twice, have about 3 weeks off because we missed the state playoffs (always sucked being in the toughest HS baseball region in GA), then 3-5 games a week in summer ball from mid May thru mid- July, maybe even into early August if you made state/regional tourneys. I know we had guys who easily threw 120-130 pitches a game twice a week or 120 in a start and 30-40 in relief. Rarely were arms iced, our stretching and rehab programs between starts were almost non-existent, and normally when those pitchers weren't pitching they were playing in the field.
Over 25-26 weeks we had guys accumulating easily 200 innings, plus practice time, wear from playing the field, and no training and rehab. And it was rare to have injuries. And, we probably threw even more when we were in middle school when we were more unmanaged, were trying to learn curveballs with no help, and played pick up games all day in the summer.

BUT - from August 1 until easily mid December, we didn't touch a ball. We'd be playing football or basketball, maybe doing some weight training, but very little baseball activity.

So was that 4-5 month down time the key? Kids are much more managed now, and likely throw less than we did and get better care.

[Commercecomet24]

Steel and CC24 - just interested in an opinion on what y'all see -

Back when us 50 somethings were coming up, we threw a ton of pitches. If I just think back to high school - we'd start practice early January, 3 games a week from mid Feb-late April with your ace pitching likely twice, have about 3 weeks off because we missed the state playoffs (always sucked being in the toughest HS baseball region in GA), then 3-5 games a week in summer ball from mid May thru mid- July, maybe even into early August if you made state/regional tourneys. I know we had guys who easily threw 120-130 pitches a game twice a week or 120 in a start and 30-40 in relief. Rarely were arms iced, our stretching and rehab programs between starts were almost non-existent, and normally when those pitchers weren't pitching they were playing in the field.
Over 25-26 weeks we had guys accumulating easily 200 innings, plus practice time, wear from playing the field, and no training and rehab. And it was rare to have injuries. And, we probably threw even more when we were in middle school when we were more unmanaged, were trying to learn curveballs with no help, and played pick up games all day in the summer.

BUT - from August 1 until easily mid December, we didn't touch a ball. We'd be playing football or basketball, maybe doing some weight training, but very little baseball activity.

So was that 4-5 month down time the key? Kids are much more managed now, and likely throw less than we did and get better care.

Yeah we didn't throw year around and when the summer season was over we moved onto football and basketball. A lot of these kids now are playing year around, playing on 2-3 teams and playing 60-70 games a year starting at 7-8 years old and it takes it's toll. Dr. Andrews recommends not picking up a baseball for 3-4 months(like we used to do). All these factors plus the constant attention to velo training and a lot of these kids have the wear and tear of a 30 year old by the time they're 16. Kids shouldn't be having elbow and shoulder surgery as teenagers. I hate the weighted balls too. I always took great care with the kids i coached and their arm care. I made sure I had plenty of guys i could use on the mound so I didn't over work my pitchers. Also after we played in the NCs in July we were done until the next spring(outside of conditioning and workouts, no games and no throwing). My youngest son never had any arm trouble until he got to juco and they started using weighted balls and boom torn labrum. Playing high school, legion and juco I never remember anyone having a serious arm injury. Guys would sometimes get fatigued but a couple a days off and you were as good as new. Heck I don't hardly remember anyone having any kind of injuries. My oldest son coaches high school and there's always a rash of sore arms every year, never seen anything like it. It's not a MSU problem, this is a problem throughout baseball at every level. Heck I had an orthopedic surgeon tell me he had some kids wanting TJ because they know a lot of guys comeback throwing harder after! It's a new era though and TJ has become this generations tonsilectomy.

ETA I'm 58 and I will say my high school coach must've been ahead of his time because we did stretching everyday and we iced our arms and we actually had trainers who took care of us. Our coach did play in the white sox organization so he may have picked up these ideas from mlb. I've had some conversations with Steel about this stuff and that guy knows way more than i do. He's done this at a very high level and he knows his stuff, probably better than anyone on this board. I would trust anything he says on this subject.

[Commercecomet24]

The old timers were not throwing 100 as a SP and they also were not playing year round. Their Spring Training consisted of drinking and whoring around in AR.

Like someone said earlier, the problem is not just Weighted balls, it is the kids arms being blown out before they are even 20 years old.

Also, the group I am speaking of collects data on not only MLB but MiLB which is also calculated into their numbers. So yes, their numbers do correlate considering their MiLB staffs are directed very pointedly about number of innings thrown in the minors. They have taken kids out of game with no hitters in the 7th to save the arm strain.

As far as other SEC schools, those numbers are relative because it doesn?t take into account arm strain prior to entering college, but yes, Arkansas and LSU are beating us on total number of ACE pitchers they have lost over the last several years. Ole Miss is even higher than our numbers overall. LSU is going to lose Skenes before regionals, just wait and see. It is a roll of the dice with any kid who was or is a SPECIALIZED pitcher only coming out of HS, that is why most MLB teams ask position players when the last time they pitched was.

Very well said and accurate. Arky probably lost an NC in 21 because their #1 starter went down with an arm injury at the end of the season and they had to move Kopps into the rotation instead of coming out of the bullpen for his 3-4 innings every game(talk about a rubber arm) and they lost in the supers to NC State.

[basedog]

Yeah we didn't throw year around and when the summer season was over we moved onto football and basketball. A lot of these kids now are playing year around, playing on 2-3 teams and playing 60-70 games a year starting at 7-8 years old and it takes it's toll. Dr. Andrews recommends not picking up a baseball for 3-4 months(like we used to do). All these factors plus the constant attention to velo training and a lot of these kids have the wear and tear of a 30 year old by the time they're 16. Kids shouldn't be having elbow and shoulder surgery as teenagers. I hate the weighted balls too. I always took great care with the kids i coached and their arm care. I made sure I had plenty of guys i could use on the mound so I didn't over work my pitchers. Also after we played in the NCs in July we were done until the next spring(outside of conditioning and workouts, no games and no throwing). My youngest son never had any arm trouble until he got to juco and they started using weighted balls and boom torn labrum. Playing high school, legion and juco I never remember anyone having a serious arm injury. Guys would sometimes get fatigued but a couple a days off and you were as good as new. Heck I don't hardly remember anyone having any kind of injuries. My oldest son coaches high school and there's always a rash of sore arms every year, never seen anything like it. It's not a MSU problem, this is a problem throughout baseball at every level. Heck I had an orthopedic surgeon tell me he had some kids wanting TJ because they know a lot of guys comeback throwing harder after! It's a new era though and TJ has become this generations tonsilectomy.

ETA I'm 58 and I will say my high school coach must've been ahead of his time because we did stretching everyday and we iced our arms and we actually had trainers who took care of us. Our coach did play in the white sox organization so he may have picked up these ideas from mlb. I've had some conversations with Steel about this stuff and that guy knows way more than i do. He's done this at a very high level and he knows his stuff, probably better than anyone on this board. I would trust anything he says on this subject.

Very well stated and right on the money! I wish young parents would listen to your take, I could say some things but I have family members I would offend. Thank goodness they don't read ED, but some things are kept from me knowing as I'm the type of person who will speak what I think and in today's society feelings get hurt more often than not.

You da man Cc24, I respect your opinion. It bothers me seeing so many kids burned out or hurt at young ages.

[Leroy Jenkins]

The old timers were not throwing 100 as a SP and they also were not playing year round. Their Spring Training consisted of drinking and whoring around in AR.

Like someone said earlier, the problem is not just Weighted balls, it is the kids arms being blown out before they are even 20 years old.

100%.

And, also, I hope they were whoring around in AZ not AR. Although, I suppose there could be some benefit to toothless women.

[Commercecomet24]

Very well stated and right on the money! I wish young parents would listen to your take, I could say some things but I have family members I would offend. Thank goodness they don't read ED, but some things are kept from me knowing as I'm the type of person who will speak what I think and in today's society feelings get hurt more often than not.

You da man Cc24, I respect your opinion. It bothers me seeing so many kids burned out or hurt at young ages.

Thanks, Base! I love the game so much and it hurts me to see these kids being overused and burnt out! Don't get me wrong I love winning as much as the next guy but not at the expense of kids arm. I've seen way to much overuse and abuse over the years and it hurts me to watch it. I'm proud to say of all the kids I've coached and seen go onto to college ball, not one TJ and I never had to shelve a pitcher with a sore arm because I was proactive with their arm care. It's not just travel ball either. These kids are being over used at the HS and Juco level too. I've seen kids in february/march when its 40 degrees throw 120 pitches in a hs/juco game(and its frequent). And it's not just the overuse, it's the mechanics as well. I watch a lot of HS baseball and there is very little coaching being done with these kids on mechanics. I watch some of these kids and know that kids gonna tear his arm up. Man I could get on a real rant about this, lol.

Always respect your takes and opinions,Base! You're one of the best on here!

[Commercecomet24]

Very well stated and right on the money! I wish young parents would listen to your take, I could say some things but I have family members I would offend. Thank goodness they don't read ED, but some things are kept from me knowing as I'm the type of person who will speak what I think and in today's society feelings get hurt more often than not.

You da man Cc24, I respect your opinion. It bothers me seeing so many kids burned out or hurt at young ages.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to basedog again.

[SilentSteel16]

Another thing that has changed like CC stated earlier is the importance of the high school coach. When I grew up my local high school baseball coach was the man that you wanted to impress. He was the guy that from 12 years old would go around and watch little league games and actually help a kid that he knew would be playing for him. Now don’t get me wrong he would help other kids too but if he knew you went to his school he really took notice to mechanics and tendencies. Plus when he showed up I felt like I had pro scouts there but in little league. My point is he had the BUD KILMER type (Varsity Blues) aura about him but without the lack of care for his players like in the movie. The guy was and is a legend. Many of you know him due to his time at State. His name is Ted Milton.

Nowadays kids aren’t so worried about high school ball because travel ball managed by parents gets kids noticed year round, velo training gets headlines. Travel ball is not inherently a bad thing as long as the parents are not living through their kids. These kids never get shut down and they are done by college with arm strain.

Like you said Brunswick we all played multiple sports do we had a built in several month break from baseball, they specialize now at 12 years old on one sport and it is year round. Didn’t realize this was so long sorry for the long winded mess.

[Randolph Dupree]

As the father of a pitcher, all of this scares the hell out of me.

[Commercecomet24]

Another thing that has changed like CC stated earlier is the importance of the high school coach. When I grew up my local high school baseball coach was the man that you wanted to impress. He was the guy that from 12 years old would go around and watch little league games and actually help a kid that he knew would be playing for him. Now don’t get me wrong he would help other kids too but if he knew you went to his school he really took notice to mechanics and tendencies. Plus when he showed up I felt like I had pro scouts there but in little league. My point is he had the BUD KILMER type (Varsity Blues) aura about him but without the lack of care for his players like in the movie. The guy was and is a legend. Many of you know him due to his time at State. His name is Ted Milton.

Nowadays kids aren’t so worried about high school ball because travel ball managed by parents gets kids noticed year round, velo training gets headlines. Travel ball is not inherently a bad thing as long as the parents are not living through their kids. These kids never get shut down and they are done by college with arm strain.

Like you said Brunswick we all played multiple sports do we had a built in several month break from baseball, they specialize now at 12 years old on one sport and it is year round. Didn’t realize this was so long sorry for the long winded mess.

I always love to hear your opinions on this because you have so much knowledge and experience dealing with this. You made a good point about HS coaches doing the scouting/training at the youth level. I grew up with that as well and thought it was just a common thing but I find out now HS coaches don't do this! I'm glad I trained my boys old school because they both are involved with young players and prospective players coming through the youth level.

I agree travel ball can be a very good thing(like most things if done properly), because you can compete against the very best in the country, which only makes you better, but you have to do it in moderation and correctly.

Good stuff, Steel!

[Commercecomet24]

Another thing that has changed like CC stated earlier is the importance of the high school coach. When I grew up my local high school baseball coach was the man that you wanted to impress. He was the guy that from 12 years old would go around and watch little league games and actually help a kid that he knew would be playing for him. Now don’t get me wrong he would help other kids too but if he knew you went to his school he really took notice to mechanics and tendencies. Plus when he showed up I felt like I had pro scouts there but in little league. My point is he had the BUD KILMER type (Varsity Blues) aura about him but without the lack of care for his players like in the movie. The guy was and is a legend. Many of you know him due to his time at State. His name is Ted Milton.

Nowadays kids aren’t so worried about high school ball because travel ball managed by parents gets kids noticed year round, velo training gets headlines. Travel ball is not inherently a bad thing as long as the parents are not living through their kids. These kids never get shut down and they are done by college with arm strain.

Like you said Brunswick we all played multiple sports do we had a built in several month break from baseball, they specialize now at 12 years old on one sport and it is year round. Didn’t realize this was so long sorry for the long winded mess.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SilentSteel16 again

[SilentSteel16]

And yes baseball spring training was done for a very long time in Hot Springs Arkansas.

Long story short these kids are getting their arms destroyed by specializing in baseball and velo training. Heavy balls don’t help but if used properly are not to blame, it is overuse and no sustainable offtime. 90 percent of arm injuries are due to parents not being the parent and shutting the kid down. If you are throwing with more than 50 percent force on a weighted ball YES you are destroying your arm, if tossed during warmups within 10 feet it is safe anything longer than that you are asking for it.

Foxhall and all college level pitching coaches can still hurt arms, but I would bet most come to college with the arm problems they are already walking around with. After age 20, the arm has lengthened and shoulders have set due to maturity and the kids not growing much. The problem is the kids are doing full regiments that are meant for 20 year olds at 12 and put so much stain and torque on their elbows when their arms are still physically growing. Growth plates get warped and you are a ticking time bomb at that point.

[Commercecomet24]

And yes baseball spring training was done for a very long time in Hot Springs Arkansas.

Long story short these kids are getting their arms destroyed by specializing in baseball and velo training. Heavy balls don’t help but if used properly are not to blame, it is overuse and no sustainable offtime. 90 percent of arm injuries are due to parents not being the parent and shutting the kid down. If you are throwing with more than 50 percent force on a weighted ball YES you are destroying your arm, if tossed during warmups within 10 feet it is safe anything longer than that you are asking for it.

Foxhall and all college level pitching coaches can still hurt arms, but I would bet most come to college with the arm problems they are already walking around with. After age 20, the arm has lengthened and shoulders have set due to maturity and the kids not growing much. The problem is the kids are doing full regiments that are meant for 20 year olds at 12 and put so much stain and torque on their elbows when their arms are still physically growing. Growth plates get warped and you are a ticking time bomb at that point.

AMEN! I am by no means an expert but I spent a ton of time studying this and Dr Andrews clinic is one of my accounts and have some very good conversations over the years. Everything you said is 100% fact. Pre pubescents and teenage bodies are NOT meant to train like 20+ year old men and it's insane to think that wont create problems! I agree completely that 90% of the kids with serious arm troubles in college come to campus already compromised.

[SilentSteel16]

As the father of a pitcher, all of this scares the hell out of me.

It is not something to be overly scared about just stand up for your kid. Tell the coach regardless of winning the fake ring or not. Buy some arm bands, different colors give different levels of resistance. Teach your kid how to warm up his rotator cuff and elbow before pitching. Limit his pitching, it is not curveballs that kill elbows, it is overuse.

Let him do mound work 2x a week, flat ground work is just as important as mound work and restricts the kid from going full speed. Long toss two days after mound work. GIVE HIM OFF DAYS, not saying he can’t play the field but off days from pitching. Have at least 2 months off from basebal throwing activities. That was the protocol we followed but AGAIN this is for specialized professional athletes. NOT kids, let him be a kid and enjoy the game. If he only plays on the weekend then that is good. Don’t have him pitching every game every kid is different has to do with mechanics but limit number of pitches per week and ICE and stretch.

Don’t make it a business to him yet. But stand up for your kid during travel ball, be the bad guy and tell the kid enough is enough. One more tournament is not going to make or break his future. Well actually it could break his future but be the parent.

[StarkVegasSteve]

It is not something to be overly scared about just stand up for your kid. Tell the coach regardless of winning the fake ring or not. Buy some arm bands, different colors give different levels of resistance. Teach your kid how to warm up his rotator cuff and elbow before pitching. Limit his pitching, it is not curveballs that kill elbows, it is overuse. Let him do mound work 2x a week, flat ground work is just as important as mound work and restricts the kid from going full speed. Long toss two days after mound work. GIVE HIM OFF DAYS, not saying he can’t play the field but off days from pitching. Have at least 2 months off from basebal throwing activities. That was the protocol we followed but AGAIN this is for specialized professional athletes. NOT kids, let him be a kid and enjoy the game. Don’t make it a business to him yet. But stand up for your kid during travel ball, be the bad guy and tell the kid enough is enough. One more tournament is not going to make or break his future. Well actually it could break his future but be the parent.

Since you and CC are pretty knowledgable on this stuff, I remember growing up that everyone thought learning how to throw curveballs and sliders at a young age would be what ruined arms. Is that rooted in any facts or was it just a myth?

[Commercecomet24]

It is not something to be overly scared about just stand up for your kid. Tell the coach regardless of winning the fake ring or not. Buy some arm bands, different colors give different levels of resistance. Teach your kid how to warm up his rotator cuff and elbow before pitching. Limit his pitching, it is not curveballs that kill elbows, it is overuse.

Let him do mound work 2x a week, flat ground work is just as important as mound work and restricts the kid from going full speed. Long toss two days after mound work. GIVE HIM OFF DAYS, not saying he can’t play the field but off days from pitching. Have at least 2 months off from basebal throwing activities. That was the protocol we followed but AGAIN this is for specialized professional athletes. NOT kids, let him be a kid and enjoy the game. If he only plays on the weekend then that is good. Don’t have him pitching every game every kid is different has to do with mechanics but limit number of pitches per week and ICE and stretch.

Don’t make it a business to him yet. But stand up for your kid during travel ball, be the bad guy and tell the kid enough is enough. One more tournament is not going to make or break his future. Well actually it could break his future but be the parent.

Yes!!!

[Commercecomet24]

Since you and CC are pretty knowledgable on this stuff, I remember growing up that everyone thought learning how to throw curveballs and sliders at a young age would be what ruined arms. Is that rooted in any facts or was it just a myth?

I've found it to be mostly myth. Over use is the big problem not curveballs. While saying that I taught fastball location before anything. Locating a fast ball is the most important thing they can learn. While i faced teams throwing tons of breaking balls my kids were beating them because they could locate their fastballs, in, out, up, down. You can't learn a breaking ball until you can command and locate your fast ball.

[SilentSteel16]

Since you and CC are pretty knowledgable on this stuff, I remember growing up that everyone thought learning how to throw curveballs and sliders at a young age would be what ruined arms. Is that rooted in any facts or was it just a myth?

Poor mechanics and overuse is the driving force behind arm injuries. A weak lower body is just as much to blame. But if you look at historical data, curveballs with normal mechanics won’t tear anything up. Believe it or not, changeups do more damage than anything pitch selection wise. Otherwise JaimeMoyer and others would have not been pitching into their 40s.

[Randolph Dupree]

It is not something to be overly scared about just stand up for your kid. Tell the coach regardless of winning the fake ring or not. Buy some arm bands, different colors give different levels of resistance. Teach your kid how to warm up his rotator cuff and elbow before pitching. Limit his pitching, it is not curveballs that kill elbows, it is overuse.

Let him do mound work 2x a week, flat ground work is just as important as mound work and restricts the kid from going full speed. Long toss two days after mound work. GIVE HIM OFF DAYS, not saying he can’t play the field but off days from pitching. Have at least 2 months off from basebal throwing activities. That was the protocol we followed but AGAIN this is for specialized professional athletes. NOT kids, let him be a kid and enjoy the game. If he only plays on the weekend then that is good. Don’t have him pitching every game every kid is different has to do with mechanics but limit number of pitches per week and ICE and stretch.

Don’t make it a business to him yet. But stand up for your kid during travel ball, be the bad guy and tell the kid enough is enough. One more tournament is not going to make or break his future. Well actually it could break his future but be the parent.

I think we're in good shape. Around some guys that care about him. Right now he's closing for his school team; 20-40 pitches a week (plays 3B and SS when not pitching, but future is likely pitching) No travel ball until school wraps up. When school ball is over he'll transition back to travel where he'll start one game a weekend and they limit them to around 70 pitches. They will play into the fall but shut it down early October until mid-January. He has bands, throwing program, recovery routine, etc. not sure what else you can do but still scares the hell out of me.

[SilentSteel16]

I've found it to be mostly myth. Over use is the big problem not curveballs. While saying that I taught fastball location before anything. Locating a fast ball is the most important thing they can learn. While i faced teams throwing tons of breaking balls my kids were beating them because they could locate their fastballs, in, out, up, down. You can't learn a breaking ball until you can command and locate your fast ball.

If we could only get Fox doing this instead of trying to get swing and misses all the time… he works backwards at times..

Larry Deirker used to preach to his guys that if you can’t get ahead using your best fastball early on then you don’t need to be here. The strike zone does not move learn it and hit it …. Of course he wasn’t the most successful win loss coach out there but walks made him furious, his pitchers threw strikes.

*warning story time* We were in Philly one time and he told the pitcher I can’t remember his name but he was trying to strike out the everyone by executing “his pitchers pitch” on every pitch, he popped off to skip about it and Dierker actually went out to the mound and moved all 7 fielders to the left field side and told the pitcher if you are as great as you say you are you don’t need them. It lasted one pitch and the kid stepped off the rubber and apologized from the mound.

[Activated Alpha]

The old timers were not throwing 100 as a SP and they also were not playing year round. Their Spring Training consisted of drinking and whoring around in AR.

Like someone said earlier, the problem is not just Weighted balls, it is the kids arms being blown out before they are even 20 years old.

Also, the group I am speaking of collects data on not only MLB but MiLB which is also calculated into their numbers. So yes, their numbers do correlate considering their MiLB staffs are directed very pointedly about number of innings thrown in the minors. They have taken kids out of game with no hitters in the 7th to save the arm strain.

As far as other SEC schools, those numbers are relative because it doesn?t take into account arm strain prior to entering college, but yes, Arkansas and LSU are beating us on total number of ACE pitchers they have lost over the last several years. Ole Miss is even higher than our numbers overall. LSU is going to lose Skenes before regionals, just wait and see. It is a roll of the dice with any kid who was or is a SPECIALIZED pitcher only coming out of HS, that is why most MLB teams ask position players when the last time they pitched was.

Thanks for that info. I appreciate. I know they've lost an ACE/quality pitcher here or there, but did not know they were worse than us. Have some rep

[Commercecomet24]

If we could only get Fox doing this instead of trying to get swing and misses all the time… he works backwards at times..

Larry Deirker used to preach to his guys that if you can’t get ahead using your best fastball early on then you don’t need to be here. The strike zone does not move learn it and hit it …. Of course he wasn’t the most successful win loss coach out there but walks made him furious, his pitchers threw strikes.

*warning story time* We were in Philly one time and he told the pitcher I can’t remember his name but he was trying to strike out the everyone by executing “his pitchers pitch” on every pitch, he popped off to skip about it and Dierker actually went out to the mound and moved all 7 fielders to the left field side and told the pitcher if you are as great as you say you are you don’t need them. It lasted one pitch and the kid stepped off the rubber and apologized from the mound.

I hear ya! That's a great story about Dierker! Dierker was 100% right! I guess I'm old school but I believe in the fastball approach 100%! I sometimes pull what's left of my hair out watching our pitchers nibble. We get in pitchers counts and then wind up giving up our advantage by trying to strike every one out! Our staff has pitchers with some quality stuff but we kill it with pitch selection. Yeah we strike out a lot but we walk to many and our pitch counts get ridiculous because of the way we pitch. You know like I do everything works off your fastball and if you can't command it you ain't getting people out at any level!

[Commercecomet24]

I think we're in good shape. Around some guys that care about him. Right now he's closing for his school team; 20-40 pitches a week (plays 3B and SS when not pitching, but future is likely pitching) No travel ball until school wraps up. When school ball is over he'll transition back to travel where he'll start one game a weekend and they limit them to around 70 pitches. They will play into the fall but shut it down early October until mid-January. He has bands, throwing program, recovery routine, etc. not sure what else you can do but still scares the hell out of me.

Sounds like he's on the right track.

[basedog]

Another thing that has changed like CC stated earlier is the importance of the high school coach. When I grew up my local high school baseball coach was the man that you wanted to impress. He was the guy that from 12 years old would go around and watch little league games and actually help a kid that he knew would be playing for him. Now don?t get me wrong he would help other kids too but if he knew you went to his school he really took notice to mechanics and tendencies. Plus when he showed up I felt like I had pro scouts there but in little league. My point is he had the BUD KILMER type (Varsity Blues) aura about him but without the lack of care for his players like in the movie. The guy was and is a legend. Many of you know him due to his time at State. His name is Ted Milton.

Nowadays kids aren?t so worried about high school ball because travel ball managed by parents gets kids noticed year round, velo training gets headlines. Travel ball is not inherently a bad thing as long as the parents are not living through their kids. These kids never get shut down and they are done by college with arm strain.

Like you said Brunswick we all played multiple sports do we had a built in several month break from baseball, they specialize now at 12 years old on one sport and it is year round. Didn?t realize this was so long sorry for the long winded mess.

I played football against Ted Milton, he was a senior at McComb and one year ahead of me. One tough MoFo Linebacker in High School. Also he played right field at Msu when I was in school. We called him Mad Dog, LOL. Dude got beamed in Sec championship game against Vandy in early 70's. Broke his nose and blackend his eyes almost shut. Dude played the next day and if I'm not mistaken hit a Bomb that day! Great athlete. I've said the before, but those early 70's teams were as good if not better than any we ever had, all were tough guys who loved the game and played it the right way!

[SilentSteel16]

Yeah the old school coaching of the 80s-early 2000s kind of lost its luster.

I was spoiled I played for Milton during school and Ken Jackson in summer. Also took pitching instruction from Pete Young and spent quite a bit of time with Kennison.

That style of coaching they all had I am not sure is allowed anymore. Haha, but they preached toughness and accountability with a major emphasis on fundamentals.

We had a senior who bat flipped one time after a HR and Milton made him go apologize in between innings. Then he was benched. He was a hard ass just like he played but a hell of a baseball guy.

[Commercecomet24]

I played football against Ted Milton, he was a senior at McComb and one year ahead of me. One tough MoFo Linebacker in High School. Also he played right field at Msu when I was in school. We called him Mad Dog, LOL. Dude got beamed in Sec championship game against Vandy in early 70's. Broke his nose and blackend his eyes almost shut. Dude played the next day and if I'm not mistaken hit a Bomb that day! Great athlete. I've said the before, but those early 70's teams were as good if not better than any we ever had, all were tough guys who loved the game and played it the right way!

I miss the way the game used to be played. I'm a dinosaur

[basedog]

I miss the way the game used to be played. I'm a dinosaur

Yep, also now days parents or just as bad questioning coaches and their kids. I had very few problems with parents, I was hard nose and still am in my old age, LOL!

[Commercecomet24]

Yep, also now days parents or just as bad questioning coaches and their kids. I had very few problems with parents, I was hard nose and still am in my old age, LOL!

100%!

[SilentSteel16]

I wouldn’t call either of you dinosaurs, but purists

Baseball was made the pastime due to people as yourselves, God bless

Back to the original topic though, I hope nothing but the best for Pico and a fast recovery.

And I hope Fox starts attacking the zone and uses his defense and quits trying to be cute. Walks lead to losses, and there is hardy anything a defense can do about it. You could have 8 gold gloves fielders in the field that never make errors and walks will beat you everytime.

[BrunswickDawg]

I miss the way the game used to be played. I'm a dinosaur

We aren't dinos, we just appreciated the game and were taught by some real old school guys. There were rules and codes and if you broke them you paid. When you have a 1930s MiL player teaching you - you get a real different perspective than other guys our ages. And real coaches were different then too. I'll never forget going to baseball camp at Georgia Southern and having Coach Jack Stallings spend the first 45 minutes going over his rules of how you were allowed to wear your uniform. Pants knee high, stirrups showing, no redneck crease in your cap - just a nice curve, no backwards caps ever. Break any rule, you're running laps.

Thanks for the great thread guys - and best of luck to Pico.

[Commercecomet24]

We aren't dinos, we just appreciated the game and were taught by some real old school guys. There were rules and codes and if you broke them you paid. When you have a 1930s MiL player teaching you - you get a real different perspective than other guys our ages. And real coaches were different then too. I'll never forget going to baseball camp at Georgia Southern and having Coach Jack Stallings spend the first 45 minutes going over his rules of how you were allowed to wear your uniform. Pants knee high, stirrups showing, no redneck crease in your cap - just a nice curve, no backwards caps ever. Break any rule, you're running laps.

Thanks for the great thread guys - and best of luck to Pico.

So many of us learned the game the same way and it was awesome! We had the same rules as you!

I played for the first black head baseball coach at Meridian and he was a no nonsense guy who made you respect the game and your opponent. Heck if you cussed you ran! He was great coach and a great man and I passed on a lot of what I learned about the game from him.

This has been great thread!

Prayers for a complete and speedy recovery for Pico!

[State82]

Cc24, Silent, base, Bruns....you guys nailed this thread. Enjoyable reads. Nice.