I don?t like it

[BuckyIsAB****]

This thread is gonna blow up bigger than a volcano but, we are trying to play Ty Cooper as a H/TE and taking Rufus Harvey off the field for it with Tulu in the slot


And no these are by no means set in stone and it is one day of one team practice in February. But I am not a big fan of that. Like at all. Im all for moving some guys to TE/H bc we really didn?t have a choice. But you dont take off one of your few consistent WRs for him

[MoreCowbell]

This thread is gonna blow up bigger than a volcano but, we are trying to play Ty Cooper as a H/TE and taking Rufus Harvey off the field for it with Tulu in the slot


And no these are by no means set in stone and it is one day of one team practice in February. But I am not a big fan of that. Like at all. Im all for moving some guys to TE/H bc we really didn?t have a choice. But you dont take off one of your few consistent WRs for him

What is Wills thoughts on new offensive identity

[Goldendawg]

Read a free article on genespage that we are looking at Malik Ellis, Clayton, & Harmon at TE. Going to see a shakeup in WR room which was built for air raid, especially slot type players after Spring practice. JMO.

[BuckyIsAB****]

We are going to lose some WRs. I hope one is not Harvey

[Pancho]

At this point I think anything should be considered. Coop is a hell of a talent so maybe this will be his niche.

[Jack Lambert]

If what they do wins, there's a portal for guys that don't fit in.

[KB21]

This thread is gonna blow up bigger than a volcano but, we are trying to play Ty Cooper as a H/TE and taking Rufus Harvey off the field for it with Tulu in the slot


And no these are by no means set in stone and it is one day of one team practice in February. But I am not a big fan of that. Like at all. Im all for moving some guys to TE/H bc we really didn?t have a choice. But you dont take off one of your few consistent WRs for him

I mentioned this in another thread. We are going to replace a WR that can help you in the passing game and replace him with a TE that will have very little impact in the passing game.

[archdog]

Hell, play 3 slot guys and a TE for all I care. Win the damn game and nothing else matters.

[confucius say]

Well all we've heard from barbay is that our offensive identity will be based upon who are playmakers are. If this is true, that doesn't compute. Harvey and Tulu need touches.

[KB21]

He can?t run his offense without a TE. In his system, the TE position connects the run game to the pass game. There is a reason he?s never been a coach that runs 10 personnel much at all.

[HoopsDawg]

We are going to lose some WRs. I hope one is not Harvey

We have to lose about 10 players from the roster to make the 85. At least 3-4 WR's are going to have to go. And you can't have a good running game with 2 slot receivers.

[Patrick Tibbons]

He can?t run his offense without a TE. In his system, the TE position connects the run game to the pass game. There is a reason he?s never been a coach that runs 10 personnel much at all.

99% of coaches couldn?t run their offense without a TE.

[msu15]

Man did he even play that high school? I have no idea

[RockyDog]

He can?t run his offense without a TE. In his system, the TE position connects the run game to the pass game. There is a reason he?s never been a coach that runs 10 personnel much at all.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[StarkVegasSteve]

This thread is gonna blow up bigger than a volcano but, we are trying to play Ty Cooper as a H/TE and taking Rufus Harvey off the field for it with Tulu in the slot


And no these are by no means set in stone and it is one day of one team practice in February. But I am not a big fan of that. Like at all. Im all for moving some guys to TE/H bc we really didn?t have a choice. But you dont take off one of your few consistent WRs for him

Well we're getting Tulu in the slot, so that's a positive. I mean we know Goede is going to be playing most of the snaps at TE. We're going to try and find a backup or two that we can shift there on the current roster. And if you can't? Oh well. We just won't use a TE unless Goede is on the field. I think we'll see Barbay run 10 personnel this year due to what personnel we have on the current roster. We have too much talent at the receiver position right now. I think we could also see Goede split out there in the slot some in short yardage situations.

[HoopsDawg]

Well we're getting Tulu in the slot, so that's a positive. I mean we know Goede is going to be playing most of the snaps at TE. We're going to try and find a backup or two that we can shift there on the current roster. And if you can't? Oh well. We just won't use a TE unless Goede is on the field. I think we'll see Barbay run 10 personnel this year due to what personnel we have on the current roster. We have too much talent at the receiver position right now. I think we could also see Goede split out there in the slot some in short yardage situations.

too much talent at WR? Not sure about that. We have numbers. Leach played more receivers than any coach in the country. Most schools are like Ole Miss or bama. They play 3-5 guys. We have something like 16 scholarship receivers on the roster.

[StarkVegasSteve]

too much talent at WR? Not sure about that. We have numbers. Leach played more receivers than any coach in the country. Most schools are like Ole Miss or bama. They play 3-5 guys. We have something like 16 scholarship receivers on the roster.

Robinson
Roberson
Tulu
Harvey
Thomas
Dortch
Brown
Whittemore
Mosley
Hopson
Pope

I mean numbers will flesh themselves out a bit but that's still a TON of talent

[HoopsDawg]

Robinson
Roberson
Tulu
Harvey
Thomas
Dortch
Brown
Whittemore
Mosley
Hopson
Pope

I mean numbers will flesh themselves out a bit but that's still a TON of talent

Maybe. You listed 7 guys who haven't done anything in a game yet.

[KB21]

Maybe. You listed 7 guys who haven't done anything in a game yet.

Neither has the new TE.

[HoopsDawg]

Neither has the new TE.

I missed where anyone said we were talented at TE.

[Cowbell]

He can?t run his offense without a TE. In his system, the TE position connects the run game to the pass game. There is a reason he?s never been a coach that runs 10 personnel much at all.

Good. You will never win big at the college or pro level without TEs.

[KB21]

Good. You will never win big at the college or pro level without TEs.

You can count on one hand how many legit TEs there are in college.

[Cowbell]

Neither has the new TE.

Which is why we need to try several at the position

[KB21]

Which is why we need to try several at the position

It?s also why we shouldn?t take Rufus out of the lineup just because we have to have a TE.

[HoopsDawg]

You can count on one hand how many legit TEs there are in college.

What does that even mean? We haven't had a legitimate NFL WR since Moulds so ..,

[KB21]

To add, Robinson, Roberson, Griffin, Harvey, Thomas, and Walley are all better than anyone we can put out there at TE.

[KB21]

What does that even mean? We haven't had a legitimate NFL WR since Moulds so ..,

It means that the majority of the bodies you put at that position will be deficient either as a receiver or as a blocker.

[LC Dawg]

At this point I think anything should be considered. Coop is a hell of a talent so maybe this will be his niche.

It seems like Arnett doesn't rotate a lot on defense so Cooper hasn't played much so if it doesn't look like he's going to play much defense next year maybe this is a good move. I agree that he's too talented to keep off the field.
I guess there's also the risk that we lose him because he doesn't want to be a TE.

[HoopsDawg]

It means that the majority of the bodies you put at that position will be deficient either as a receiver or as a blocker.

Every slot guy is deficient as a blocker in the new scheme so your statement is pointless.

[HoopsDawg]

To add, Robinson, Roberson, Griffin, Harvey, Thomas, and Walley are all better than anyone we can put out there at TE.

Not as blockers.

[Pancho]

I'm all for KB 21 to give CZA a dam call and discuss some shit. that should clarify some issues

[KB21]

Not as blockers.

So, you think putting a blocker on the field is worth cutting Harvey?s snaps and touches?

[parabrave]

I'm all for KB 21 to give CZA a dam call and discuss some shit. that should clarify some issues

He can tell Kirby Smart that TEs are worthless.

[KB21]

He can tell Kirby Smart that TEs are worthless.

I didn?t realize that TEs like Bowers and Washington grew on trees. That?s nice to know.

[HoopsDawg]

So, you think putting a blocker on the field is worth cutting Harvey?s snaps and touches?

I think improving the run game is worth eliminating a slot position.

[Todd4State]

This thread is gonna blow up bigger than a volcano but, we are trying to play Ty Cooper as a H/TE and taking Rufus Harvey off the field for it with Tulu in the slot


And no these are by no means set in stone and it is one day of one team practice in February. But I am not a big fan of that. Like at all. Im all for moving some guys to TE/H bc we really didn?t have a choice. But you dont take off one of your few consistent WRs for him

"Best 11 players"- Kevin Barbay

[Todd4State]

I think improving the run game is worth eliminating a slot position.

Depends on how good the slot guy is. "Adapt to your personnel"- remember?

[Todd4State]

Well we're getting Tulu in the slot, so that's a positive. I mean we know Goede is going to be playing most of the snaps at TE. We're going to try and find a backup or two that we can shift there on the current roster. And if you can't? Oh well. We just won't use a TE unless Goede is on the field. I think we'll see Barbay run 10 personnel this year due to what personnel we have on the current roster. We have too much talent at the receiver position right now. I think we could also see Goede split out there in the slot some in short yardage situations.

You would think/hope so. Based on what I have observed with coaches in the past and some of his comments he'll probably do what he wants to do rather than actually fit it to our personnel.

The problem is not only a lack of TE's- we only have three running backs. One is Marks who is injury prone. The other is Price who is legit. And then we have a JUCO coming in with Pittman who is an unknown. I bet the three of those get 50% of the touches too.

[KB21]

Depends on how good the slot guy is. "Adapt to your personnel"- remember?

If he truly adapts to the personnel, the Mississippi State will be a predominately 10 personnel team that throws the ball 65% of the time.

[Todd4State]

He can?t run his offense without a TE. In his system, the TE position connects the run game to the pass game. There is a reason he?s never been a coach that runs 10 personnel much at all.

Go back and watch film of App State and North Carolina. Barbay literally ran on every single first down almost. And they gained more than four yards like 3-4 times the whole game. It was actually pretty predictable. He was forced to call plays analytically on second and third down because of his awful first down play calling. And lo and behold when he called plays analytically- it worked! He would be so much better if he threw the ball more on first down as opposed to trying to prove how "physical" his team was on first down like former Iowa OC Greg Davis (LOL) taught him.

[Todd4State]

If he truly adapts to the personnel, the Mississippi State will be a predominately 10 personnel team that throws the ball 65% of the time.

I'll be pleasantly surprised with 60%. Especially with him wasting every first down call.

This is what happens when you can't find an OC and you have to go to about your sixth choice and beg someone at the convention who is good at coach speak.

I figure there is a better than average chance we're looking for a new OC after 2025.

[Todd4State]

I'll add one last thing- this offense is going to go as far as Will can take it. And he's going to have to overcome his OC.

If I were him I would check to a pass every first down unless it's late in the game and we have a lead or there is a really light box.

Having Tulu in the slot will help. He's better than Harvey. He can make plays in space. And it will allow us to get Robinson and Roberson on the field at the same time too.

[BlackSailsDawg]

What does that even mean? We haven't had a legitimate NFL WR since Moulds so ..,

That's a horrible argument to make. What does that have to do with the subject?

[BlackSailsDawg]

"Best 11 players"- Kevin Barbay

exactly. So we are now saying a defensive guy is better than Harvey on offense?

[BlackSailsDawg]

Go back and watch film of App State and North Carolina. Barbay literally ran on every single first down almost. And they gained more than four yards like 3-4 times the whole game. It was actually pretty predictable. He was forced to call plays analytically on second and third down because of his awful first down play calling. And lo and behold when he called plays analytically- it worked! He would be so much better if he threw the ball more on first down as opposed to trying to prove how "physical" his team was on first down like former Iowa OC Greg Davis (LOL) taught him.

Watch his game plan vs LSU on the road with CMU roster in 2021! Same thing until it got them down they had to pass. As soon as they started passing, the scoring started

[BlackSailsDawg]

I'll add one last thing- this offense is going to go as far as Will can take it. And he's going to have to overcome his OC.

If I were him I would check to a pass every first down unless it's late in the game and we have a lead or there is a really light box.

Having Tulu in the slot will help. He's better than Harvey. He can make plays in space. And it will allow us to get Robinson and Roberson on the field at the same time too.



We had options. We have the $$$$ too. I understand he is young and new to the position of HC, but what we are seeing so far is not promising. I hope he makes me eat my words and he needs time, and I'm ok with that unless the wheels come off.

We have a lot of talent and production returning on offense and defense.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

You guys fussing about Zach getting away from
the air raid must not have watched our offense vs LSU, BAMA, Auburn, Illinois, UK and Ole Miss this year.

[bulldawg28]

You can't have Harvey and Tulu on the field together. This isn't high-school with micro WR's everywhere. You need size and speed in the SEC.

[Patrick Tibbons]

Go back and watch film of App State and North Carolina. Barbay literally ran on every single first down almost. And they gained more than four yards like 3-4 times the whole game. It was actually pretty predictable. He was forced to call plays analytically on second and third down because of his awful first down play calling. And lo and behold when he called plays analytically- it worked! He would be so much better if he threw the ball more on first down as opposed to trying to prove how "physical" his team was on first down like former Iowa OC Greg Davis (LOL) taught him.

If you are gonna talk shit about his offense and play calling maybe don?t pick a game where they scored 61 points.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Read a free article on genespage that we are looking at Malik Ellis, Clayton, & Harmon at TE. Going to see a shakeup in WR room which was built for air raid, especially slot type players after Spring practice. JMO.

I don't know about genespage, but that is what Schmidt said.

[Dawgface]

If you are gonna talk shit about his offense and play calling maybe don?t pick a game where they scored 61 points.

Yes....a dumb ass argument.

[RockyDog]

We had options. We have the $$$$ too. I understand he is young and new to the position of HC, but what we are seeing so far is not promising. I hope he makes me eat my words and he needs time, and I'm ok with that unless the wheels come off.

We have a lot of talent and production returning on offense and defense.

What the hell have you SEEN so far that is not promising? It is February for Christ sake. You, Todd, and KB need some medication.

[KB21]

I'll add one last thing- this offense is going to go as far as Will can take it. And he's going to have to overcome his OC.

If I were him I would check to a pass every first down unless it's late in the game and we have a lead or there is a really light box.

Having Tulu in the slot will help. He's better than Harvey. He can make plays in space. And it will allow us to get Robinson and Roberson on the field at the same time too.

Will is definitely better than any QB he's ever coached in his career. He definitely should keep his ability to check the play at the line based on what he sees.

[KB21]

What the hell have you SEEN so far that is not promising? It is February for Christ sake. You, Todd, and KB need some medication.

Too much emphasis on establishing the run.

[RezDog7]

Too much emphasis on establishing the run.

The only time MSU has had a big year is running the ball and good defense. I hope we never throw the ball once this year.

[confucius say]

Not as blockers.

To be fair, Barbay has said 200 times that the scheme he will run, his identity, will be dictated by his personnel. He was asked what will his identity be and he said it depends on who my best 11 are. If he means that, then using those guys as blockers doesn't compute. If we want our best 11 on the field, we will have to be in 10 personnel often.

[TrapGame]

Too much emphasis on establishing the run.

Oh, God forbid opposing teams actually have to prepare for a ground game against us.

[RockyDog]

The only time MSU has had a big year is running the ball and good defense. I hope we never throw the ball once this year.

Yea! Let?s go back to the 80s and 90s. The wonder years of MSU glory with a 1500 yard passer with 9 tds and 8 interceptions for the year. Those were glorious times!!

[BuckyIsAB****]

Harvey has made way more plays as a WR than Tulu has. Just simple facts

[RezDog7]

Yea! Let?s go back to the 80s and 90s. The wonder years of MSU glory with a 1500 yard passer with 9 tds and 8 interceptions for the year. Those were glorious times!!

John Bond says hi

[BuckyIsAB****]

Tulu had a big catch in the Armed forces bowl a big catch vs OM this year. A big catch in the 21 egg bowl that he followed with the biggest drop of the season. Maybe made one of the best plays of the college football season recovering wills fumble this year as well.

He is a great returner. He hasnt shown to consistently be anything else. All the talk about him on speed sweeps, he had a chance to pop one in the bowl and he wouldnt cut it up. And if teams really didn?t want him to return it they can take away his best tool whenever they want.

All that said, we have made our bed with him. He is talented. I hope we made the right choice

[KB21]

Tulu had a big catch in the Armed forces bowl a big catch vs OM this year. A big catch in the 21 egg bowl that he followed with the biggest drop of the season. Maybe made one of the best plays of the college football season recovering wills fumble this year as well.

He is a great returner. He hasnt shown to consistently be anything else. All the talk about him on speed sweeps, he had a chance to pop one in the bowl and he wouldnt cut it up. And if teams really didn?t want him to return it they can take away his best tool whenever they want.

All that said, we have made our bed with him. He is talented. I hope we made the right choice

Ah, yes. The Jet Sweeps. I think some believe Tulu will get the ball 5-6 times a game on jet sweeps. Do they realize that Pimpleton at CMU under Barbay only ran the ball 16 times in '21, and most of those were as a wildcat QB?

[Really Clark?]

You guys do understand that the best 11 guys on the field does not and has never in the wide world of football meant the exact same players for each snap and play that needs to be called. The best 11 is for that play. We haven't even determined what player groupings work yet for Barbay for 10% of the offense!! Good lord some of you are just praying and looking for some sort of sign for failure to beat your chest. We are just looking at a guy to fill an empty void in the TE room. No we will not be running 2 slot guys on the field every single play. No that does not mean we won't run multiple personnel groups either. We will end up in more 10 and 20 personnel than Barbay has usually run, we will also run more 11 personnel than we have seen the last 3 years because we didn't even have it. Get over it, get on board or go find an AR team with no TE to watch for a while. Let's at least get through the spring before continuing spewing this crap. Heaven help us!!

[Tbonewannabe]

Too much emphasis on establishing the run.

So would you rather have a 1 yard check down to the RB?

[KB21]

So would you rather have a 1 yard check down to the RB?

Considering that this idea that check downs to the RBs only net 1 yard is hyperbole more than anything, yes. I would prefer to gain more yards on a RB check down than having that back run into the back of his offensive linemen.

[RezDog7]

Considering that this idea that check downs to the RBs only net 1 yard is hyperbole more than anything, yes. I would prefer to gain more yards on a RB check down than having that back run into the back of his offensive linemen.

I'd rather run it 3 times up the middle for 3 1/2 yards a pop than 3 straight 1 yard check downs.

[KB21]

The running game should never be the focus of an offense. It should only be used to keep the defense honest. The passing game should always be the focus of an offense.

[Cowbell]

You can count on one hand how many legit TEs there are in college.

You can't count on any hand the number of playoff teams that didn't utilize a TE....

[RezDog7]

The running game should never be the focus of an offense. It should only be used to keep the defense honest. The passing game should always be the focus of an offense.

The offense only produced the last three years when Will checked to a run. Stop acting like the offense was unstoppable. It was the most boring offense I've seen since the wishbone.

[Cowbell]

The running game should never be the focus of an offense. It should only be used to keep the defense honest. The passing game should always be the focus of an offense.

I think that's the point our new OC is trying to make because our last OC didn't do that....

[Tbonewannabe]

Considering that this idea that check downs to the RBs only net 1 yard is hyperbole more than anything, yes. I would prefer to gain more yards on a RB check down than having that back run into the back of his offensive linemen.

Except we probably gained more yards rushing last year when we actually did it than those check downs against SEC defenses. Those rely on the DB missing the tackle which happened rarely in SEC games. While Bama was giving up 20-30 points a game the past few years, our high powered offense scored 1 TD in 3 years. Pretty much the same as Moorhead's offense.

[Really Clark?]

Considering that this idea that check downs to the RBs only net 1 yard is hyperbole more than anything, yes. I would prefer to gain more yards on a RB check down than having that back run into the back of his offensive linemen.

Considering that check downs behind the line of scrimmage to RB's actually netted less or close to the same yards per attempt than running the ball did, depending on the RB, then at best it was the exact same thing yardage wise but a worse play with higher risk, more tackles for loss, incomplete pass, RB blown up, etc

[Todd4State]

If you are gonna talk shit about his offense and play calling maybe don?t pick a game where they scored 61 points.

Having success never stopped some on here from talking shit about Leach's offense on here either. Guess it goes both ways.

The point is when he had to call plays that lined up with analytics it worked. When he didn't it didn't work.

I want him to do what works. Because more often than not that will work better.

[Todd4State]

Except we probably gained more yards rushing last year when we actually did it than those check downs against SEC defenses. Those rely on the DB missing the tackle which happened rarely in SEC games. While Bama was giving up 20-30 points a game the past few years, our high powered offense scored 1 TD in 3 years. Pretty much the same as Moorhead's offense.

Marks- 6.0 AVG per reception and 5.6 AVG per rush
D. Johnson- 5.94 AVG per reception and 5.5 AVG per rush.

[HancockCountyDog]

Robinson
Roberson
Tulu
Harvey
Thomas
Dortch
Brown
Whittemore
Mosley
Hopson
Pope

I mean numbers will flesh themselves out a bit but that's still a TON of talent

How many of those guys do you think gets drafted in the first three rounds of the NFL Draft? I don't see one.

[Todd4State]

You guys do understand that the best 11 guys on the field does not and has never in the wide world of football meant the exact same players for each snap and play that needs to be called. The best 11 is for that play. We haven't even determined what player groupings work yet for Barbay for 10% of the offense!! Good lord some of you are just praying and looking for some sort of sign for failure to beat your chest. We are just looking at a guy to fill an empty void in the TE room. No we will not be running 2 slot guys on the field every single play. No that does not mean we won't run multiple personnel groups either. We will end up in more 10 and 20 personnel than Barbay has usually run, we will also run more 11 personnel than we have seen the last 3 years because we didn't even have it. Get over it, get on board or go find an AR team with no TE to watch for a while. Let's at least get through the spring before continuing spewing this crap. Heaven help us!!

I want us to maximize our offense. Not throwing on first down is a waste of a down and makes it more difficult to score. This has been proven through analytics with the exceptions being a light box to run against, running to bleed the clock at the end of the game, or first and goal inside the six yard line.

This isn't about the Air Raid. This is about making our offense better.

And saying you're going to put your best 11 on the field and then you slap a LB out there because you have to have a TE makes saying you are adapting to your personnel hollow. Or maybe I missed those "hey let's throw it to Ty Cooper" posts?

[HancockCountyDog]

Harvey has made way more plays as a WR than Tulu has. Just simple facts

Well that is matter of opinion. Tulu averaged more ypc last year than Harvey. I mean Harvey had 505 yards and Tulu had 503 yards. To say that Rufus has made "way more plays" seems like a stretch.

[Todd4State]

Considering that check downs behind the line of scrimmage to RB's actually netted less or close to the same yards per attempt than running the ball did, depending on the RB, then at best it was the exact same thing yardage wise but a worse play with higher risk, more tackles for loss, incomplete pass, RB blown up, etc

So we averaged more on check downs but it's a worse play because of hyperbole. Got it. If we're getting more production overall it's a better play even with the "risks".

Running backs are not going to get the Tom
Brady treatment running between the tackles so I'm not sure why our fans act like getting tackled after a run is somehow different than getting tackled after a pass.

[Todd4State]

Well that is matter of opinion. Tulu averaged more ypc last year than Harvey. I mean Harvey had 505 yards and Tulu had 503 yards. To say that Rufus has made "way more plays" seems like a stretch.

Harvey is a possession receiver in a slot receiver's body.

Give Tulu 50 catches and we will benefit because he will get more YAC which is what we need from that spot.

[Todd4State]

I think that's the point our new OC is trying to make because our last OC didn't do that....

Well then he's a dumbass. Because his passing worked better than his running did at App State.

[Goldendawg]

The offense only produced the last three years when Will checked to a run. Stop acting like the offense was unstoppable. It was the most boring offense I've seen since the wishbone.

No, Croom's West Coach Offense was more boring than Wishbone.

[KB21]

Well then he's a dumbass. Because his passing worked better than his running did at App State.

The guy has called plays in 25 games, and in 17 of those 25 games, he has run the ball more than he has thrown it. He also had 4 TEs play more than 120 snaps each at App State.

[Bubb Rubb]

I mentioned this in another thread. We are going to replace a WR that can help you in the passing game and replace him with a TE that will have very little impact in the passing game.

Well, we have a choice here. We can go by Arnett's comment on the record that there aren't going to be wholesale philosophical changes offensively, or we can speculate on what's going to happen and then go full retard in the responses (which is where you come in).

[KB21]

Well, we have a choice here. We can go by Arnett's comment on the record that there aren't going to be wholesale philosophical changes offensively, or we can speculate on what's going to happen and then go full retard in the responses (which is where you come in).

If there weren't going to be wholesale changes, then he would have hired an AR coach (which is what he should have done) rather than hire a pro style coach. The philosophical change is seismic.

[HancockCountyDog]

Well, we have a choice here. We can go by Arnett's comment on the record that there aren't going to be wholesale philosophical changes offensively, or we can speculate on what's going to happen and then go full retard in the responses (which is where you come in).

I do think the truth is going to be somewhere in the middle. It won't be as drastic as KB21 is making it out to be, but it does appear that we are making a pretty big philosophical change offensively. Now, I think long term that is a good thing, but you don't hire an OC that ran it 52 times and completed 15 passes against A&M and think we are just going to be tinkering with the offense. That seems like wishful thinking.

One thing I really like about Arnett is that he pretty damn media savvy. He just can't come out and say - "look, the Air Raid simply isn't my thing, we need a more balanced attack here at MSU". He has to say all the right things in the spring, and as long as we are winning in the fall, no one will give a shit that we are now running the ball more than we are passing it. No one will care that he might have just been telling people what they wanted to hear after the passing of Coach Leach. All people will care about is the wins.

Now, if he loses, that is a different story.

[Bubb Rubb]

If there weren't going to be wholesale changes, then he would have hired an AR coach (which is what he should have done) rather than hire a pro style coach. The philosophical change is seismic.

You don't even know what "pro style" is. We've been over this, and you continue to demonstrate that you don't know what the hell you're talking about on this subject.

[KB21]

You don't even know what "pro style" is. We've been over this, and you continue to demonstrate that you don't know what the hell you're talking about on this subject.

I obviously know more about it than you do considering that you still want to deny the fact that the offense Barbay runs is pro style.

[RiverCityDawg]

I thought we might wait until the first spring practice to make sweeping judgments towards who will be playing where and how much and what they'll be doing, but we didn't even make it past the first February practice is gym clothes.

[TrapGame]

I obviously know more about it than you do considering that you still want to deny the fact that the offense Barbay runs is pro style.

I don't care if we run hair style, Chicago style or doggy style. As long as it works IDGAF.

[confucius say]

Harvey has made way more plays as a WR than Tulu has. Just simple facts

Bc he's been in the slot. Switch them and that'd be reversed. I like Harvey though. I think both need to be getting touched.

[Goldendawg]

I don't care if we run hair style, Chicago style or doggy style. As long as it works IDGAF.

This. Didn't he call plays in the App State win over aTm? Looks good to me. Our O regressed last year and was boring to watch, JMO. I have been going to our games as an 8 year old since 1963 and have suffered though some horrid offenses. Had he not tragically passed away, I think Coach Leath was going to tweak his air raid with more running game. Give Barbay a chance. If it doesn't work, we can always fire him as we have many others over the years. Heck, even Bruce Ariens and Watson Brown are on that list. Hail State!

[Dawgface]

I thought we might wait until the first spring practice to make sweeping judgments towards who will be playing where and how much and what they'll be doing, but we didn't even make it past the first February practice is gym clothes.

Ridiculous isn't it.....

[Commercecomet24]

I thought we might wait until the first spring practice to make sweeping judgments towards who will be playing where and how much and what they'll be doing, but we didn't even make it past the first February practice is gym clothes.

This. The meltdown is absolutely insane. I'm thinking I wouldn't want to be around some of these folks during a real crisis. smh

[DEDawg]

Well we're getting Tulu in the slot, so that's a positive. I mean we know Goede is going to be playing most of the snaps at TE. We're going to try and find a backup or two that we can shift there on the current roster. And if you can't? Oh well. We just won't use a TE unless Goede is on the field. I think we'll see Barbay run 10 personnel this year due to what personnel we have on the current roster. We have too much talent at the receiver position right now. I think we could also see Goede split out there in the slot some in short yardage situations.

Whoa what is all this talent at WR you speak of? We havent had a ?dude? there since Polk left

[RezDog7]

If there weren't going to be wholesale changes, then he would have hired an AR coach (which is what he should have done) rather than hire a pro style coach. The philosophical change is seismic.

Who do you think we will convince to change positions and move to fullback? I'm thinking Jett Johnson.

[Really Clark?]

So we averaged more on check downs but it's a worse play because of hyperbole. Got it. If we're getting more production overall it's a better play even with the "risks".

Running backs are not going to get the Tom
Brady treatment running between the tackles so I'm not sure why our fans act like getting tackled after a run is somehow different than getting tackled after a pass.

We did NOT make more yards on check downs. That was my point you missed.

[BlackSailsDawg]

Yes....a dumb ass argument.

The point is what he is doing. His history. In that, it's not a dumb argument.

[Really Clark?]

I want us to maximize our offense. Not throwing on first down is a waste of a down and makes it more difficult to score. This has been proven through analytics with the exceptions being a light box to run against, running to bleed the clock at the end of the game, or first and goal inside the six yard line.

This isn't about the Air Raid. This is about making our offense better.

And saying you're going to put your best 11 on the field and then you slap a LB out there because you have to have a TE makes saying you are adapting to your personnel hollow. Or maybe I missed those "hey let's throw it to Ty Cooper" posts?

Where in my post did I say a word about throwing vs running on first down? Being in 11 personnel on first down and throwing off of PA is still throwing. He will end up running more 10 personnel than he normally does because of our personnel right now but he will run other personnel groups as well and hopefully it's utilizing the best 11 group for that play call. That's what using your best 11 means. Not 11 players only, that's trying to fit a square peg in a round whole, which is what you really hate.

[BlackSailsDawg]

What the hell have you SEEN so far that is not promising? It is February for Christ sake. You, Todd, and KB need some medication.

What about the OP that stated this is not good. All people are talking about is what they have access to. They are not talking about a loss in 2023 because no games have been played. We are only talking about what we know due to access.

Harvey will transfer out if he is pulled IMO. So we are going to talk ramifications of it.

[BlackSailsDawg]

To be fair, Barbay has said 200 times that the scheme he will run, his identity, will be dictated by his personnel. He was asked what will his identity be and he said it depends on who my best 11 are. If he means that, then using those guys as blockers doesn't compute. If we want our best 11 on the field, we will have to be in 10 personnel often.

Exactly.

[BlackSailsDawg]

I'd rather run it 3 times up the middle for 3 1/2 yards a pop than 3 straight 1 yard check downs.

All except that Marks averaged 6 yards per pass. Johnson averaged 5.9 per pass. But talking points right......

[BlackSailsDawg]

The offense only produced the last three years when Will checked to a run. Stop acting like the offense was unstoppable. It was the most boring offense I've seen since the wishbone.

That's what we call a fallacy. You are arguing the sky color when nobody is even on that topic. I know of nobody suggesting we find a clone to ML. But we had options for a modified AR.



I think that's the point our new OC is trying to make because our last OC didn't do that....


No. He's saying establish the run in a run first. His whole history is that. Let's not act like that's not the case. Agree or not with the philosophy, it is his...

[Really Clark?]

All except that Marks averaged 6 yards per pass. Johnson averaged 5.9 per pass. But talking points right......

Except when it was check downs behind the line of scrimmage. That was the original argument and they didn't or at best it was the same yardage as running the ball. That was the original point.

[BlackSailsDawg]

Except when it was check downs behind the line of scrimmage. That was the original argument and they didn't or at best it was the same yardage as running the ball. That was the original point.

The check downs are figured into the passing game because it's a forward pass. The LOS means nothing to that rule.

Marks averaged 6 in passing and 5.2 rushing

[Really Clark?]

The check downs are figured into the passing game because it's a forward pass. The LOS means nothing to that rule.

Marks averaged 6 in passing and 5.2 rushing

The check downs was what was previously mentioned in comparison to running plays in the post. They are not designed routes out of the backfield across the line of scrimmage, like a wheel route for example 12 yards down the field. You have to differentiate those yardages for a comparison of yards per attempt as they are not an actual passing route. That is what the poster was saying, rushing vs check downs not rushing vs all of their receptions including actual routes down the field. They ran routes too and have yards on those routes. But if it's check downs vs rushes, which is what was stated, then they did not gain more yards or at best it's equal per attempt on check downs vs rushing the ball.

[confucius say]

The check downs was what was previously mentioned in comparison to running plays in the post. They are not designed routes out of the backfield across the line of scrimmage, like a wheel route for example 12 yards down the field. You have to differentiate those yardages for a comparison of yards per attempt as they are not an actual passing route. That is what the poster was saying, rushing vs check downs not rushing vs all of their receptions including actual routes down the field. They ran routes too and have yards on those routes. But if it's check downs vs rushes, which is what was stated, then they did not gain more yards or at best it's equal per attempt on check downs vs rushing the ball.

Check downs are routes.
Almost all check downs are caught beyond the line of scrimmage.

[Really Clark?]

Check downs are routes.
Almost all check downs are caught beyond the line of scrimmage.

Well complain to the poster who specifically said check downs. Not all receptions made by the RB, but check downs vs runs. There is a difference. And it's hard to call going to the left or right side of the field and sitting in a spot as a relief valve for the QB as a route. Is a WR bubble screen a route? No. Is a shovel pass a route? No, it's just an pitch sweep but it's counted as a pass

[Goldendawg]

Check downs are routes.
Almost all check downs are caught beyond the line of scrimmage.

So the RB catches 1 to 3 yds beyond the line of scrimmage before getting blown up on 3rd and 5 counted? Asking for a friend.****

[Jarius]

So glad we have someone running our offense that’s going to take us into the 21st century. I could not stand watching us against any defense worth a shit for the past 3 years. It’s going to be a breathe of fresh air.

[RezDog7]

All except that Marks averaged 6 yards per pass. Johnson averaged 5.9 per pass. But talking points right......

Now do SEC defenses.

[RezDog7]

The check downs are figured into the passing game because it's a forward pass. The LOS means nothing to that rule.

Marks averaged 6 in passing and 5.2 rushing

I'd rather have a fullback and TE.

[confucius say]

So the RB catches 1 to 3 yds beyond the line of scrimmage before getting blown up on 3rd and 5 counted? Asking for a friend.****

Yes. Those are routes. Sometimes it's a minimal gain, sometimes it's 5-10 yards. Occasionally it's more. But they are certainly routes.

[KB21]

I'd rather have a fullback and TE.

I?d prefer 5 wide with an empty backfield on every play.

[Homedawg]

I?d prefer 5 wide with an empty backfield on every play.

Who knew. So would the defensive end!!! Ears back and go. Don't have to respect the run. Now the OT's wouldn't like that.

[RezDog7]

I?d prefer 5 wide with an empty backfield on every play.

I guess you want our QB to be kilt

[BuckyIsAB****]

Well that is matter of opinion. Tulu averaged more ypc last year than Harvey. I mean Harvey had 505 yards and Tulu had 503 yards. To say that Rufus has made "way more plays" seems like a stretch.

He had way more catches I would guess and def more on 3rd down

[Really Clark?]

He had way more catches I would guess and def more on 3rd down

He had 1 catch more per game

[BuckyIsAB****]

I have a honest question for all of you that hated the check downs.

Do you like seeing the dive in the triple option offense?

[BuckyIsAB****]

He had 1 catch more per game

Yeah so more catches. And I can guarantee you it was much more on 3rd downs

[BuckyIsAB****]

So glad we have someone running our offense that’s going to take us into the 21st century. I could not stand watching us against any defense worth a shit for the past 3 years. It’s going to be a breathe of fresh air.

We needed to modernize it but Leach won more games vs ranked teams in 3 years than any other coach did in his first 3. And I think he has the most wins ever over ranked teams when his team was unranked. If it?s not first it?s close. Im not a huge analytics guy but for those that are Dave Bartoo said he was a walking upset. That kinda denies the whole we couldn?t score vs good teams deal

[BuckyIsAB****]

This. The meltdown is absolutely insane. I'm thinking I wouldn't want to be around some of these folks during a real crisis. smh

I knew it would blow up. I gave a warning haha

[KB21]

Who knew. So would the defensive end!!! Ears back and go. Don't have to respect the run. Now the OT's wouldn't like that.

Good luck doing that with a three man rush.

[KB21]

We needed to modernize it but Leach won more games vs ranked teams in 3 years than any other coach did in his first 3. And I think he has the most wins ever over ranked teams when his team was unranked. If it?s not first it?s close. Im not a huge analytics guy but for those that are Dave Bartoo said he was a walking upset. That kinda denies the whole we couldn?t score vs good teams deal

Dave also helped Arnett with the search and also told me that most Arnett talked to turned it down because they didn?t want to follow Leach.

[Really Clark?]

Dave also helped Arnett with the search and also told me that most Arnett talked to turned it down because they didn?t want to follow Leach.

The second half is complete BS

[Homedawg]

Good luck doing that with a three man rush.

Right. Gotcha. Got all the answers. Glad you finally touched on at least on of my posts. But... how many times did bama and ole miss sack us in 2021?? Most w a 3 man rush. Pay attention pal.

[Homedawg]

Dave also helped Arnett with the search and also told me that most Arnett talked to turned it down because they didn?t want to follow Leach.

You are a clown!!!
Eta- I wouldn't want to follow leach either. Bc nobody runs and offense wo a te and/or an hb of sort. So following is tough for the first year or so til you get the proper personnel. But it's not bc you can't match his production.

[Tbonewannabe]

Marks- 6.0 AVG per reception and 5.6 AVG per rush
D. Johnson- 5.94 AVG per reception and 5.5 AVG per rush.

So it doesn't take into account an incomplete pass which skews the data. 👍

[KB21]

No one wants to follow a legend. They would rather follow the guy who follows the legend.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Right. Gotcha. Got all the answers. Glad you finally touched on at least on of my posts. But... how many times did bama and ole miss sack us in 2021?? Most w a 3 man rush. Pay attention pal.

Nobody can consistently run empty without some screens added in. QB wont last. You can literally hit him whenever you want to if you bring 6. Simple math. That makes you have to play 0 but its worth it to hit him some

[Commercecomet24]

The second half is complete BS

Of course it is, look at the source.

[Commercecomet24]

I knew it would blow up. I gave a warning haha

Lol yeah knew it was coming!

[Homedawg]

Nobody can consistently run empty without some screens added in. QB wont last. You can literally hit him whenever you want to if you bring 6. Simple math. That makes you have to play 0 but its worth it to hit him some

Tell genius that.

[Commercecomet24]

Tell genius that.

It wouldn't help.

[RezDog7]

We needed to modernize it but Leach won more games vs ranked teams in 3 years than any other coach did in his first 3. And I think he has the most wins ever over ranked teams when his team was unranked. If it?s not first it?s close. Im not a huge analytics guy but for those that are Dave Bartoo said he was a walking upset. That kinda denies the whole we couldn?t score vs good teams deal

I'm a big Leach fan, but the defense helped us win more than the offense.

[Homedawg]

It wouldn't help.

Fact

[RezDog7]

Good luck doing that with a three man rush.

This has to be a joke right. Did you even watch our LT's struggle against actual SEC DE's when they knew we were only going to throw the ball. Troll harder.

[Homedawg]

This has to be a joke right. Did you even watch our LT's struggle against actual SEC DE's when they knew we were only going to throw the ball. Troll harder.

Like I said. Bama and ole miss in 21 went off and were playing 8 on the backend too.

[KB21]

Mississippi State?s passing down sack rate was 3.5%.

App State?s under Barbay was 7%.

[Really Clark?]

Mississippi State?s passing down sack rate was 3.5%.

App State?s under Barbay was 7%.

You know that's an OL stat right?Thats not about scheme. That's also 16 spots different in the National ranking. We ranked 33rd nationally and they ranked 49th. That's not like they were the worse in the country and we were Top 5. Vanderbilt was ranked 25th, so that's better than us, we should run what they run, right? App St also ranked 21st nationally on standard down sack rank we ranked 24th.

They also ranked 27th nationally on passing down yards gained, we ranked 84th. That's a damn good trade off against a small margin difference in sack rate allowed.

[KB21]

You know that's an OL stat right?Thats not about scheme. That's also 16 spots different in the National ranking. We ranked 33rd nationally and they ranked 49th. That's not like they were the worse in the country and we were Top 5. Vanderbilt was ranked 25th, so that's better than us, we should run what they run, right? App St also ranked 21st nationally on standard down sack rank we ranked 24th.

They also ranked 27th nationally on passing down yards gained, we ranked 84th. That's a damn good trade off against a small margin difference in sack rate allowed.

Passing down line yards gained is a rushing stat. App State was 27th in line yards per rush on passing downs. Mississippi State was 84th.

Rushing yards gained on passing downs was not the point of the post. The point of the post was to show that you?re not more prone to giving up sacks by using 5 man protection units than you are if you use max protection. Barbay will use more max protection on passing downs, which means fewer receivers in route.

[Really Clark?]

Passing down line yards gained is a rushing stat. App State was 27th in line yards per rush on passing downs. Mississippi State was 84th.

Rushing yards gained on passing downs was not the point of the post. The point of the post was to show that you?re not more prone to giving up sacks by using 5 man protection units than you are if you use max protection. Barbay will use more max protection on passing downs, which means fewer receivers in route.

It's a useless stat that has nothing to do with what you are trying to show as you have too many different offenses like Vandy who finished higher. Florida finished 3rd nationally in 2021 running Mullen's offense. You sure don't want to run Mullen's offense or Vandy's this year. You have every type of offense represented running at that rate or higher. It's useless trying to make that conclusion strictly based on scheme, that's irrelevant.

Break down the yard to gain on those passing down plays, how far the teams were actually throwing down the field and the result of the play, then you can start making some analysis. A team throwing a lot of check downs and 1-5 yards passes should have a good sack rate. But you can't just use that stat. It's complete useless without much more analysis combined with it.

[Todd4State]

So it doesn't take into account an incomplete pass which skews the data. 👍

It proves that our running backs weren't getting blown up at the LOS like some of our fans are insinuating.

[Cowbell]

It proves that our running backs weren't getting blown up at the LOS like some of our fans are insinuating.

Todd - you could literally put together a highlight clip of our RB getting blown up on checkdowns - most were 3-4 yards downfield. We gained yards but it wasn't worth the hits that were laid on our running backs.

[Todd4State]

Todd - you could literally put together a highlight clip of our RB getting blown up on checkdowns - most were 3-4 yards downfield. We gained yards but it wasn't worth the hits that were laid on our running backs.

Then put it together. Running backs are going to get hit when they run between the tackles too. The reality is you don't like passing as an extension of the running game.

The stats prove that the "running backs" getting blown up after a minimum gain" is false.

[bulldawg28]

Then put it together. Running backs are going to get hit when they run between the tackles too. The reality is you don't like passing as an extension of the running game.

The stats prove that the "running backs" getting blown up after a minimum gain" is false.

Bro, every RB we had that played extensively was injured at some point during a game. I've never seen anything like it.

[Jarius]

We needed to modernize it but Leach won more games vs ranked teams in 3 years than any other coach did in his first 3. And I think he has the most wins ever over ranked teams when his team was unranked. If it?s not first it?s close. Im not a huge analytics guy but for those that are Dave Bartoo said he was a walking upset. That kinda denies the whole we couldn?t score vs good teams deal

I watched us play Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Auburn, and Illinois this year. I saw it with my own 2 eyes. You guys can lie to yourselves if you want to but I know the offense sucked. Our defense carried us against anyone with a defensive pulse. Mike Leach was a great head coach. His offenses against any defense with a pulse were not good and any game we won against an above average defense was largely because of our defense.

[Todd4State]

Bro, every RB we had that played extensively was injured at some point during a game. I've never seen anything like it.

I remember when running JJ Johnson every play kept him healthy all year....oh wait.***

[BlackSailsDawg]

I watched us play Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Auburn, and Illinois this year. I saw it with my own 2 eyes. You guys can lie to yourselves if you want to but I know the offense sucked. Our defense carried us against anyone with a defensive pulse. Mike Leach was a great head coach. His offenses against any defense with a pulse were not good and any game we won against an above average defense was largely because of our defense.

Try winning those without the offense production. The sport is a game of defense, offense, and special teams. It takes all of them to win. You are wrong on your point, but even if you were right, they simply did their job.

That Auburn game was a melt down of defense. The defense allowed them to score that much.

It was the Defense that allowed an Ole Miss team to march literally 99 yards that allowed them the opportunity to tie the game.

You are not right.

[BlackSailsDawg]

I remember when running JJ Johnson every play kept him healthy all year....oh wait.***

that list is long.

We both know this is not about injuries. It's a desire to have a certain offense.

[Jarius]

Try winning those without the offense production. The sport is a game of defense, offense, and special teams. It takes all of them to win. You are wrong on your point, but even if you were right, they simply did their job.

That Auburn game was a melt down of defense. The defense allowed them to score that much.

It was the Defense that allowed an Ole Miss team to march literally 99 yards that allowed them the opportunity to tie the game.

You are not right.

What ****ing planet were you living on during those games, because it wasn’t earth? Our defense had to stay on the field over and over and over against Auburn because our awful quarterback turned it over 3 times. Our defense SAVED OUR ASS in the egg bowl. The only reason that 99 yard drive mattered was because our quarterback turned it over AGAIN and that time at the 1 yard line.

Try winning those games without offensive production? Are you seriously bragging about our offensive production in those games? Seriously? Offenses are designed to score. That is their job. Ours scored very few points against any defense that was formidable. What a complete and total head in the sand moment you’re having.

[BlackSailsDawg]

What ****ing planet were you living on during those games, because it wasn?t earth? Our defense had to stay on the field over and over and over against Auburn because our awful quarterback turned it over 3 times. Our defense SAVED OUR ASS in the egg bowl. The only reason that 99 yard drive mattered was because our quarterback turned it over AGAIN and that time at the 1 yard line.

Try winning those games without offensive production? Are you seriously bragging about our offensive production in those games? Seriously? Offenses are designed to score. That is their job. Ours scored very few points against any defense that was formidable. What a complete and total head in the sand moment you?re having.

LOL! We are not going to agree at all on this.

[Jarius]

LOL! We are not going to agree at all on this.

Well there’s nothing to debate. We averaged 21 ppg in conference play and that’s including 3 or 4 non offensive scores. Our offense wasn’t worth a shit when we played in our league 90 % of the time. That’s not debatable. Not even a little bit debatable.

[BlackSailsDawg]

Well there’s nothing to debate. We averaged 21 ppg in conference play and that’s including 3 or 4 non offensive scores. Our offense wasn’t worth a shit when we played in our league 90 % of the time. That’s not debatable. Not even a little bit debatable.

Oh it's debatable. We scored on most. The issue is and WILL ALWAYS BE the elite teams.


You need to pray that our NIL will give us elite talent! That's the only way you get your "stat" help in this argument.

[Homedawg]

Oh it's debatable. We scored on most. The issue is and WILL ALWAYS BE the elite teams.


You need to pray that our NIL will give us elite talent! That's the only way you get your "stat" help in this argument.
Kentucky was certainly "elite" and our defense scored 7

[HancockCountyDog]

LOL! We are not going to agree at all on this.

You just aren?t right about this.

If you watched our offense against competent defenses, we were terrible.

We won despite our offense this year. We can go game by game if you want, but you are just wrong.

[BlackSailsDawg]

Kentucky was certainly "elite" and our defense scored 7

Well, their defense was way better than ours. They ranked #12 in the nation ( bama was 13) and we ranked 35th.

[BlackSailsDawg]

You just aren?t right about this.

If you watched our offense against competent defenses, we were terrible.

We won despite our offense this year. We can go game by game if you want, but you are just wrong.

Cool story!

[Goldendawg]

What ****ing planet were you living on during those games, because it wasn’t earth? Our defense had to stay on the field over and over and over against Auburn because our awful quarterback turned it over 3 times. Our defense SAVED OUR ASS in the egg bowl. The only reason that 99 yard drive mattered was because our quarterback turned it over AGAIN and that time at the 1 yard line.

Try winning those games without offensive production? Are you seriously bragging about our offensive production in those games? Seriously? Offenses are designed to score. That is their job. Ours scored very few points against any defense that was formidable. What a complete and total head in the sand moment you’re having.

This.

[Homedawg]

Well, their defense was way better than ours. They ranked #12 in the nation ( bama was 13) and we ranked 35th.

Huh???? So that's your defense of our offense great. Part of the reason the uk d was great is bc they played against us!! Padded their stats.

[Todd4State]

Huh???? So that's your defense of our offense great. Part of the reason the uk d was great is bc they played against us!! Padded their stats.

Not mathematically possible. They held Georgia to 16 points. The only team that scored more than 30 on them was Tennessee who scored 44 which was an outlier. The next highest point total that they allowed was 24 to Vanderbilt and South Carolina.

The reason they had an average season was because their offense was very bad. Their highest point total all year was 37- against Miami of Ohio. The only other time they cracked 30 was against Youngstown State when they scored 31 and NIU when they also scored 31. Their offense was Croom-esque. And they reeled off four straight touchdowns against Arnett's defense after we took the lead in the third quarter.

Their defense was very good.

[BuckyIsAB****]

I watched us play Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Auburn, and Illinois this year. I saw it with my own 2 eyes. You guys can lie to yourselves if you want to but I know the offense sucked. Our defense carried us against anyone with a defensive pulse. Mike Leach was a great head coach. His offenses against any defense with a pulse were not good and any game we won against an above average defense was largely because of our defense.

They absolutely played extremely well vs OM and in the bowl.

[Jarius]

Oh it's debatable. We scored on most. The issue is and WILL ALWAYS BE the elite teams.


You need to pray that our NIL will give us elite talent! That's the only way you get your "stat" help in this argument.

We scored on most? There is no way you’re being serious so I’ll just leave you with this. This is 2023. Being able to score a time or 2 doesn’t mean you did your job on offense. Averaging 21 ppg in conference play is not good enough.

[Jarius]

They absolutely played extremely well vs OM and in the bowl.

We scored 12 offensive points in the bowl game. Our quarterback play almost cost us the egg bowl by itself with all the turnovers. We had 336 yards with 3 turnovers. The fact that this is “playing well” in your eyes is obviously where the disconnect lies. Some of us have actually watched good offensive football. I guess the rest of us are just so blindly committed to not saying our favorite people played bad that we are going to be blind to reality. Our running game played well when we actually decided to do that. The offense as a whole did not play well, mainly due to 1 position.

[viverlibre]

They absolutely played extremely well vs OM and in the bowl.

Surely you mean the defense played well?

[BuckyIsAB****]

We scored 12 offensive points in the bowl game. Our quarterback play almost cost us the egg bowl by itself with all the turnovers. We had 336 yards with 3 turnovers. The fact that this is “playing well” in your eyes is obviously where the disconnect lies. Some of us have actually watched good offensive football. I guess the rest of us are just so blindly committed to not saying our favorite people played bad that we are going to be blind to reality. Our running game played well when we actually decided to do that. The offense as a whole did not play well, mainly due to 1 position.

I was talking about the defense. Calm down dude

[basedog]

Why are y'all talking about the past so much, nothing will bring it back. It doesn't matter as a "new era or sheriff" has taken over. Actually, I'm looking forward to it, I will decide how things go after a season or two. Hell maybe a game or two** LOL, it's what ED is all about.

Btw Bucky, I'm hoping for much success from Will this year. He will be fine; he is smart, and this offense should benefit him in many ways looking forward.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Our defense did play good for the most part but to act like they were this elite force is cherry picking. They let LSU throw the 8 yd out around 6 straight plays in the 4th Quarter in Baton Rouge. They let Kentucky run the ball and control the ball at will instead of just making Will Levis throw, which he can't do. And they gave up a 99 yd TD drive in 75 seconds in th Egg Bowl.

Again for the most part, they played well. But to act like they were the 18 defense is a stretch. We had games the offense won it for us and we had games the defense won it for us.

[Jarius]

Our defense did play good for the most part but to act like they were this elite force is cherry picking. They let LSU throw the 8 yd out around 6 straight plays in the 4th Quarter in Baton Rouge. They let Kentucky run the ball and control the ball at will instead of just making Will Levis throw, which he can't do. And they gave up a 99 yd TD drive in 75 seconds in th Egg Bowl.

Again for the most part, they played well. But to act like they were the 18 defense is a stretch. We had games the offense won it for us and we had games the defense won it for us.

They were not a dominant defense. They were good enough to win every game you mentioned. The LSU meltdown happened because our receivers could not catch a pass and our hands guy dropped a punt in the red zone. They got worn down in the second half. Kentucky was 100 % on the offense. You can’t continually ask your defense to get stop after stop and do zero on offense. We gained 222 yards of offense against Kentucky. That number would make Sly Croom blush. The egg bowl was 100 % won by the defense. The best game they played all year. The last drive should not have even mattered in that game. They gave up 330 yards of offense. That’s dominant.

[BlackSailsDawg]

They were not a dominant defense. They were good enough to win every game you mentioned. The LSU meltdown happened because our receivers could not catch a pass and our hands guy dropped a punt in the red zone. They got worn down in the second half. Kentucky was 100 % on the offense. You can’t continually ask your defense to get stop after stop and do zero on offense. We gained 222 yards of offense against Kentucky. That number would make Sly Croom blush. The egg bowl was 100 % won by the defense. The best game they played all year. The last drive should not have even mattered in that game. They gave up 330 yards of offense. That’s dominant.

You mislead with your stats to try to prove a point and it doesn't work with most people. UK had the 12 ranked defense in the nation. To most, that is elite. You also want to lump all of the SEC in with Bama, UGA, and LSU...etc because it lowers what we did to the other teams in the SEC.

The SEC is NOT elite. Some are, most are not.

The top defenses in the SEC in order nationally:

- UGA at #10
- UK at # 12
- Bama at #13


Those were 3 of the 4 loses we had.

The whole "Now do just SEC" is a fallacy argument. That places all of the SEC on the same level and like it or not, we all are not elite.

[Goldendawg]

We scored 12 offensive points in the bowl game. Our quarterback play almost cost us the egg bowl by itself with all the turnovers. We had 336 yards with 3 turnovers. The fact that this is “playing well” in your eyes is obviously where the disconnect lies. Some of us have actually watched good offensive football. I guess the rest of us are just so blindly committed to not saying our favorite people played bad that we are going to be blind to reality. Our running game played well when we actually decided to do that. The offense as a whole did not play well, mainly due to 1 position.

Maroon colored glasses while watching our "offense" in 2022 were worn by many. Hoping 2023 is more exciting and successful. to all involved. Hail State!

[Jarius]

You mislead with your stats to try to prove a point and it doesn't work with most people. UK had the 12 ranked defense in the nation. To most, that is elite. You also want to lump all of the SEC in with Bama, UGA, and LSU...etc because it lowers what we did to the other teams in the SEC.

The SEC is NOT elite. Some are, most are not.

The top defenses in the SEC in order nationally:

- UGA at #10
- UK at # 12
- Bama at #13


Those were 3 of the 4 loses we had.

The whole "Now do just SEC" is a fallacy argument. That places all of the SEC on the same level and like it or not, we all are not elite.

“Now do the SEC” is not a fallacy. That’s the league we play in every single year. We sucked offensively against all but 2 teams we played IN OUR LEAGUE. Leach’s offense was billed as a talent equalizer and it was not. If your argument is that Leach’s offense is as good as we can do against defenses like Alabama, Georgia, and Kentucky then we will just have to disagree, because Ole Miss has proven that to be false as they are nowhere near elite and have consistently done better against those defenses. It can be done by our level of team.

[Really Clark?]

Everyone considers 2016 a below average offensive season under Mullen. His scoring was 30.4 ppg, 29.3 vs conference opponents and 12.3 vs ranked teams. 2022 our scoring offense was 31.6 PPG, 25.4 vs conference opponents and 13.7 vs ranked teams. If 2016 was a below average offense, which most Mullen defenders and haters agree it was, then this year a below average offense as well.

[MedDawg]

I mentioned this in another thread. We are going to replace a WR that can help you in the passing game and replace him with a TE that will have very little impact in the passing game.

If we have TEs open and the quarterback throws to them they will have an impact to the game. Tight ends do not have to be fast wide receivers who stand where a TE stands. In fact, they shouldn't be. They should be able to block.

[KB21]

If we have TEs open and the quarterback throws to them they will have an impact to the game. Tight ends do not have to be fast wide receivers who stand where a TE stands. In fact, they shouldn't be. They should be able to block.

A tight end like Goede isn?t going to put stress on the defense vertically or horizontally. He?s going to be an outlet option.

[HancockCountyDog]

Well, their defense was way better than ours. They ranked #12 in the nation ( bama was 13) and we ranked 35th.

That elite Kentucky defense gave up 264 rushing yards to Vandy.

Vandy.....

[HancockCountyDog]

Our defense did play good for the most part but to act like they were this elite force is cherry picking. They let LSU throw the 8 yd out around 6 straight plays in the 4th Quarter in Baton Rouge. They let Kentucky run the ball and control the ball at will instead of just making Will Levis throw, which he can't do. And they gave up a 99 yd TD drive in 75 seconds in th Egg Bowl.

Again for the most part, they played well. But to act like they were the 18 defense is a stretch. We had games the offense won it for us and we had games the defense won it for us.

You can't use the LSU game against the defense. You just can't actually blame a defense that did the following - here are the first half drives for LSU:

7 plays - Punt
3 plays - Punt
3 plays - Punt
2 plays - Fumble
3 plays - Punt
5 plays - punt
7 plays - TD

our defense, in Baton Rouge, had to defend against 7 offensive possessions and gave up 7 points. That is dominant defense in today's college football.

Hell - the defense played great in the second half until the offense and special teams let us down.

9 plays - FG
6 plays - downs
3 plays - punt (Austin williams gave them the ball at the damn 9 yard line)

At this point the defense was tired - and gave up two TD drives, while our offense scored 3 points in the entire second half.

Blaming the defense for that loss is just criminal. The offense had 9 punts/downs drives in that game, not counting a pick at the end of the game.

[Todd4State]

Everyone considers 2016 a below average offensive season under Mullen. His scoring was 30.4 ppg, 29.3 vs conference opponents and 12.3 vs ranked teams. 2022 our scoring offense was 31.6 PPG, 25.4 vs conference opponents and 13.7 vs ranked teams. If 2016 was a below average offense, which most Mullen defenders and haters agree it was, then this year a below average offense as well.

So we're comparing Dan in year 8 to Leach in year 3?

In year 3 Dan had worse offensive stats than Leach in year 3.

Dan in year 3- 25.3 PPG and 18.1 in SEC play.

Leach averaged 31.6 PPG and 25.4 in SEC play.

[Todd4State]

You can't use the LSU game against the defense. You just can't actually blame a defense that did the following - here are the first half drives for LSU:

7 plays - Punt
3 plays - Punt
3 plays - Punt
2 plays - Fumble
3 plays - Punt
5 plays - punt
7 plays - TD

our defense, in Baton Rouge, had to defend against 7 offensive possessions and gave up 7 points. That is dominant defense in today's college football.

Hell - the defense played great in the second half until the offense and special teams let us down.

9 plays - FG
6 plays - downs
3 plays - punt (Austin williams gave them the ball at the damn 9 yard line)

At this point the defense was tired - and gave up two TD drives, while our offense scored 3 points in the entire second half.

Blaming the defense for that loss is just criminal. The offense had 9 punts/downs drives in that game, not counting a pick at the end of the game.

We had a lead in the fourth quarter until Austin muffed that punt. Baton Rouge is not an easy place to play- especially at night. Our fans act like playing there is like playing Vandy in Nashville.

At the end of the day- as Bill Bellichick would say- everyone has to do their job. We muffed the punt and we lost our confidence and momentum. It sucked. It is what it is. LSU wasn't scoring up until that point either- how come they didn't get tired?

[Todd4State]

A tight end like Goede isn?t going to put stress on the defense vertically or horizontally. He?s going to be an outlet option.

As a four star recruit he better be able to stretch a defense.

[RezDog7]

A tight end like Goede isn?t going to put stress on the defense vertically or horizontally. He?s going to be an outlet option.

Why stretch the field when you can run it up the middle 3 plays in a row for a first down.

[Jarius]

We had a lead in the fourth quarter until Austin muffed that punt. Baton Rouge is not an easy place to play- especially at night. Our fans act like playing there is like playing Vandy in Nashville.

At the end of the day- as Bill Bellichick would say- everyone has to do their job. We muffed the punt and we lost our confidence and momentum. It sucked. It is what it is. LSU wasn't scoring up until that point either- how come they didn't get tired?

Because they have 17 4 stars sitting on the bench, and we don’t. LSU can sustain their offense not moving the ball for long periods of time. We can’t.

[Really Clark?]

So we're comparing Dan in year 8 to Leach in year 3?

In year 3 Dan had worse offensive stats than Leach in year 3.

Dan in year 3- 25.3 PPG and 18.1 in SEC play.

Leach averaged 31.6 PPG and 25.4 in SEC play.

Todd quit looking for arguments when there is none. The comparison was we all considered 2016 a below average offensive year and this year was very similar. This was not about Mullen vs Leach. No other discussion was needed just the fact that 2016 was below average but some, including you if you don't think this year was below average, think this year wasn't. They were almost the same and both below average. If you consider 2016 below average then this year was as well. That's all.

[Jarius]

Todd quit looking for arguments when there is none. The comparison was we all considered 2016 a below average offensive year and this year was very similar. This was not about Mullen vs Leach. No other discussion was needed just the fact that 2016 was below average but some, including you if you don't think this year was below average, think this year wasn't. They were almost the same and both below average. If you consider 2016 below average then this year was as well. That's all.

We were 10th in conference only ppg this year. Texas A&M had a better offense within conference play than we did, statistically. The only teams we were higher than were Vandy, Missouri, Kentucky, and Auburn. Our offense was trash.

[Todd4State]

Because they have 17 4 stars sitting on the bench, and we don’t. LSU can sustain their offense not moving the ball for long periods of time. We can’t.

That's recruiting issue. Running plays that have less of a chance of working with a different OC won't fix that.

[Todd4State]

Todd quit looking for arguments when there is none. The comparison was we all considered 2016 a below average offensive year and this year was very similar. This was not about Mullen vs Leach. No other discussion was needed just the fact that 2016 was below average but some, including you if you don't think this year was below average, think this year wasn't. They were almost the same and both below average. If you consider 2016 below average then this year was as well. That's all.

It took Dan eight years to get to Leach's level in year 8. Got it.

The funny thing is all the Dan Mullen people using the schedule difficulty argument while not letting Leach have the same latitude.

[smootness]

To be fair, Barbay has said 200 times that the scheme he will run, his identity, will be dictated by his personnel. He was asked what will his identity be and he said it depends on who my best 11 are. If he means that, then using those guys as blockers doesn't compute. If we want our best 11 on the field, we will have to be in 10 personnel often.

No one ever literally means 'I will put my best 11 players on the field no matter what position they play.' That is obvious. So a more reasonable interpretation of what he's saying is that he will determine, based on personnel, what he thinks our strengths are and then accent those strengths.

If he thinks Marks, Price, and Pittman and the potential of our running game is a strength, he needs to find ways to utilize and accent that. To do that, he can't run 10 personnel all the time because that doesn't set the running game up to work well.

So yes, it may mean that a player with less overall talent plays over one with more. But it's because what the player in the game brings better than the guy he replaced is what is needed more to utilize the team's strengths.

[Really Clark?]

It took Dan eight years to get to Leach's level in year 8. Got it.

The funny thing is all the Dan Mullen people using the schedule difficulty argument while not letting Leach have the same latitude.

That's complete strawman argument and you know it. Hell you could argue that Dan averaging 24 ppg vs ranked opponents his first year (5 in 2009, we only played 3 ranked teams this year) was a better offense based on that SOS, if you want to go down that road. But that was not my point. There was no comparison of any of that, the point was that many, especially you, consider 2016 a below avg offense so was this year. They were similar in several ways.

[BlackSailsDawg]

?Now do the SEC? is not a fallacy. That?s the league we play in every single year. We sucked offensively against all but 2 teams we played IN OUR LEAGUE. Leach?s offense was billed as a talent equalizer and it was not. If your argument is that Leach?s offense is as good as we can do against defenses like Alabama, Georgia, and Kentucky then we will just have to disagree, because Ole Miss has proven that to be false as they are nowhere near elite and have consistently done better against those defenses. It can be done by our level of team.

It is fallacy. Ark is not Bama. They have never been close to a bama. Your argument places them on the same level. It's a way to diminish returns to make your belief seem better. So why don't we break down even more then? Let's remove the elite defenses.

We averaged 32.2 points per game in SEC when those defenses are removed.

In those same games, we averaged 407 yards per game.


Ole Miss has proven nothing. They lost 5 out of their last 6. That includes a loss to Ark.

[BlackSailsDawg]

That's complete strawman argument and you know it. Hell you could argue that Dan averaging 24 ppg vs ranked opponents his first year (5 in 2009, we only played 3 ranked teams this year) was a better offense based on that SOS, if you want to go down that road. But that was not my point. There was no comparison of any of that, the point was that many, especially you, consider 2016 a below avg offense so was this year. They were similar in several ways.

We played 5 ranked teams this year

[Jarius]

We played 5 ranked teams this year

We played 3 that ended the year ranked in the only poll that actually matters. Just because they were overrated when we played them doesn’t mean they were actually any good. Our SOS ended up being in the mid 20s postseason.

[Jarius]

It is fallacy. Ark is not Bama. They have never been close to a bama. Your argument places them on the same level. It's a way to diminish returns to make your belief seem better. So why don't we break down even more then? Let's remove the elite defenses.

We averaged 32.2 points per game in SEC when those defenses are removed.

In those same games, we averaged 407 yards per game.


Ole Miss has proven nothing. They lost 5 out of their last 6. That includes a loss to Ark.


What in the world? I’m not saying Arkansas is Alabama. I’m comparing us against our conference peers comparatively to how everyone else does against that same level of competition. That is the only argument that holds any water. No one gives a shit what our offense did against Bowling green. We are all playing similar strength of schedules within our conference play. Some are harder than others, but there is no monumental difference, so when you compare our offense against sec only competition it ranked 9th out of 14 teams. That’s not good.

Ole Miss under Kiffin has proven they can score points on anyone. Their wins and losses (which have been better under Kiffin than ours under Leach by the way) have nothing to do with their offense being able to score points on good defenses while ours have not.

[MaroonFlounder]

He's better than Harvey. He can make plays in space.

Rufus Harvey has better hands. We will be doing this offense a huge disservice by diminishing his reps.

I can?t believe we are going to basically nudge a Starkville product into the transfer portal.
We will regret it. Mark my words.

[MaroonFlounder]

Our SOS ended up being in the mid 20s postseason.

I’m shocked that is the case.

We played the national champion(Georgia), Bama, and the SEC west champion (LSU)

[CoachT14]

It took Dan eight years to get to Leach's level in year 8. Got it.

The funny thing is all the Dan Mullen people using the schedule difficulty argument while not letting Leach have the same latitude.

The program that Dan took over < the program Leach took over. There’s no argument otherwise.

[CoachT14]

We played 3 that ended the year ranked in the only poll that actually matters. Just because they were overrated when we played them doesn’t mean they were actually any good. Our SOS ended up being in the mid 20s postseason.

Don’t bring truth into the argument now. We have to go with the narrative that we had a top 5 SOS to feel better about the offense this year.

Here’s the thing, lines have been drawn and aren’t moving. There’s a subset of fans that were more enamored with the AR than the program. It is what it is. They will use every argument right, wrong, or indifferent to defend the offense from last year and there’s nothing anyone on this board will convince them otherwise of it.

[Prediction? Pain.]

That's complete strawman argument and you know it. Hell you could argue that Dan averaging 24 ppg vs ranked opponents his first year (5 in 2009, we only played 3 ranked teams this year) was a better offense based on that SOS, if you want to go down that road. But that was not my point. There was no comparison of any of that, the point was that many, especially you, consider 2016 a below avg offense so was this year. They were similar in several ways.

I agree that this year's offense, especially by Leach's standards, was below expectations and had regressed from '21.

Whether it's analogous to 2016 under Mullen, I don't know. But I don't agree that 2016 was below average for Mullen. In fact, other than '14 and '15, I'd say it was one of his best offenses at State:

https://i.postimg.cc/JnLFxxxg/Screenshot-2023-02-12-144137.png

As for Todd's argument about Leach vs. top-tier defenses compared to Mullen (or whoever) vs. top-tier defenses, I think he's got a point.

In Mullen's 9 years, we played 27 games against Power 5 teams that finished in the Top 15 nationally in scoring defense. (I'm including BYU from '16 as a P5 opponent among those 27 even though they're technically an independent.) We averaged 16.1 points per game in those games and went 5 - 22. (Three of the wins were with Dak at QB -- LSU and Arkansas in '14 and Mizzou in '15. The other two were U. Miss. in '09 and LSU in '17.)

In Leach's three years, we played 7 Power 5 teams that finished in the Top 15 nationally in scoring defense. We averaged 15.9 points per game and went 3 - 4. (If you throw in the 2020 game vs. UGA, who finished No. 16 nationally in scoring D, that average goes up to 16.9 points per game.)

And just for good measure -- in Moorhead's two years, we played 6 Power 5 teams that finished in the Top 15 nationally in scoring defense. We averaged 14.5 points per game and went 2 - 4.

I'm not going to put words in Todd's mouth, but what I think he's getting at is that struggling offensively against great defenses wasn't unique to Leach. It's been tough sledding for State against those teams for a while, regardless of the coach or the offensive system.

[KB21]

Yep, and the issue with this new offense is that it will magnify the talent discrepancy between us and the big boys in the league.

[parabrave]

Yep, and the issue with this new offense is that it will magnify the talent discrepancy between us and the big boys in the league.

Except for Sharp last year which other Offensive player would've started for any of the "Big Boys"???? Tulu as a returner, thats who/ So the discrepancy is already there and quit beating the dead horse which is the Air Raid. Heck watch Saban go to a more run based offense with Tight Ends blocking next year.

[Jarius]

I’m shocked that is the case.

We played the national champion(Georgia), Bama, and the SEC west champion (LSU)

Alabama wasn’t normal Alabama, LSU had 4 losses, Arkansas was not good, Ole Miss was mediocre, Auburn was bad, and A&M went 5-7. Wasn’t as hard as we had feared going into the year.

[Really Clark?]

We played 5 ranked teams this year

We played 3. The stats I am using to base the numbers they generate only counts 3 for this season It goes by what a team finishes. Stats that I see using ranking of your opponents are only using what they finish not where they were at the time when played.

[Really Clark?]

I agree that this year's offense, especially by Leach's standards, was below expectations and had regressed from '21.

Whether it's analogous to 2016 under Mullen, I don't know. But I don't agree that 2016 was below average for Mullen. In fact, other than '14 and '15, I'd say it was one of his best offenses at State:

https://i.postimg.cc/JnLFxxxg/Screenshot-2023-02-12-144137.png

As for Todd's argument about Leach vs. top-tier defenses compared to Mullen (or whoever) vs. top-tier defenses, I think he's got a point.

In Mullen's 9 years, we played 27 games against Power 5 teams that finished in the Top 15 nationally in scoring defense. (I'm including BYU from '16 as a P5 opponent among those 27 even though they're technically an independent.) We averaged 16.1 points per game in those games and went 5 - 22. (Three of the wins were with Dak at QB -- LSU and Arkansas in '14 and Mizzou in '15. The other two were U. Miss. in '09 and LSU in '17.)

In Leach's three years, we played 7 Power 5 teams that finished in the Top 15 nationally in scoring defense. We averaged 15.9 points per game and went 3 - 4. (If you throw in the 2020 game vs. UGA, who finished No. 16 nationally in scoring D, that average goes up to 16.9 points per game.)

And just for good measure -- in Moorhead's two years, we played 6 Power 5 teams that finished in the Top 15 nationally in scoring defense. We averaged 14.5 points per game and went 2 - 4.

I'm not going to put words in Todd's mouth, but what I think he's getting at is that struggling offensively against great defenses wasn't unique to Leach. It's been tough sledding for State against those teams for a while, regardless of the coach or the offensive system.

I don't disagree with that but that was never my point. Especially with Todd, who regularly blasted Mullen's offenses and many consider 2016 below average. That was probably psychological because of the 2 years prior. I'll grant you that. But many, including Todd, believe we had a below average offense in 2016. If that was true then, then 2022 was also below average. That was the point. Don't be hypocritical about a season under one coach vs another.

[Todd4State]

I agree that this year's offense, especially by Leach's standards, was below expectations and had regressed from '21.

Whether it's analogous to 2016 under Mullen, I don't know. But I don't agree that 2016 was below average for Mullen. In fact, other than '14 and '15, I'd say it was one of his best offenses at State:

https://i.postimg.cc/JnLFxxxg/Screenshot-2023-02-12-144137.png

As for Todd's argument about Leach vs. top-tier defenses compared to Mullen (or whoever) vs. top-tier defenses, I think he's got a point.

In Mullen's 9 years, we played 27 games against Power 5 teams that finished in the Top 15 nationally in scoring defense. (I'm including BYU from '16 as a P5 opponent among those 27 even though they're technically an independent.) We averaged 16.1 points per game in those games and went 5 - 22. (Three of the wins were with Dak at QB -- LSU and Arkansas in '14 and Mizzou in '15. The other two were U. Miss. in '09 and LSU in '17.)

In Leach's three years, we played 7 Power 5 teams that finished in the Top 15 nationally in scoring defense. We averaged 15.9 points per game and went 3 - 4. (If you throw in the 2020 game vs. UGA, who finished No. 16 nationally in scoring D, that average goes up to 16.9 points per game.)

And just for good measure -- in Moorhead's two years, we played 6 Power 5 teams that finished in the Top 15 nationally in scoring defense. We averaged 14.5 points per game and went 2 - 4.

I'm not going to put words in Todd's mouth, but what I think he's getting at is that struggling offensively against great defenses wasn't unique to Leach. It's been tough sledding for State against those teams for a while, regardless of the coach or the offensive system.

Thank you!

Only one way out of that rut- and that's through recruiting better. If we can.

[Todd4State]

I don't disagree with that but that was never my point. Especially with Todd, who regularly blasted Mullen's offenses and many consider 2016 below average. That was probably psychological because of the 2 years prior. I'll grant you that. But many, including Todd, believe we had a below average offense in 2016. If that was true then, then 2022 was also below average. That was the point. Don't be hypocritical about a season under one coach vs another.

I don't recall mentioning the 2016 season specifically unless it was to blast Peter Sirmon.

My issue with Dan is this:

1. He looked for jobs while he should have been getting ready for the Egg Bowl and it cost us a lot of prestige as a program both in state and nationally.

2. He coached scared against Alabama. His QB power or whatever that crap was against Alabama when he ran the QB up the middle against them on 4th and 8 was one of the worst play calls I have ever seen in my life.

3. Our AD catered to him non stop even when he was giving us the middle finger and looking at the freaking Maryland job. Seriously.

4. He didn't hold his staff accountable on the offensive side of the ball. It was always the defense's fault.

But our fans act like he is the greatest thing ever. And he really didn't do much better than Leach. Had Leach survived he would have outpaced Dan easily.

If I compare coaches I typically compare them at the same point in their tenure. Because of recruiting cycles. By 2016 every player was recruited by Dan. In 2011 some were recruited by Croom and some by Dan. This year some of our players were recruited by Joe and some by Leach. And then I think Austin was recruited by Dan. Same as 2011. It's more apples to apples that way. I would only compare 2016 to Leach in year eight because that's logical.