The Air Raid offense sucks and no one wants to run it.

[Tater]

Just look at how 2 of our assistant coaches have gotten OC jobs in a week. Our OL coach is one we want to keep and people are seriously floating him to be OC. But hey, the RB coach might get let go so it's all trash.

Air Raid Philosophy is the future and we've revamped our offense in 3 short years to where most of us agree a QB with a consistent deep ball (before you yell at me Bucky, Will showed flashes of this 21' memphis, 21' arkansas, etc.) and a solid head can make us a playoff contender moving forward. (In that 12 team playoff space).

[Goldendawg]

Our O disappeared for long stretches under Coach Leach in many games, especially against teams with aggressive, lock down cb's. Even Coach Leach never seemed to be happy with WR's as no alpha stepped forward, (don't forget folding chairs). Will freely admitted Coach wouldn't have been happy with him in the bowl and the OM game was same ole, same ole on O. This pure Air Raid was going to change some had Coach not passed away. It needs some changes under new OC in '23 season, but NOT a JoMo total change in one year! Hail State!

[KOdawg1]

Modern air raid offenses rock.

2001 air raid doesn't.

We had the old version and it needed to be tweaked

[CadaverDawg]

The air raid we ran was trash. That's facts.

The Heupel version is solid. We weren't in the same stratosphere as that version. The Heupel air raid is like a fighter jet, and ours was like a fart in a whirlwind.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Modern air raid offenses rock.

2001 air raid doesn't.

We had the old version and it needed to be tweaked
It would help if we had a QB that wasn?t a statue and could throw it more than 30 yards

[Tater]

It would help if we had a QB that wasn?t a statue and could throw it more than 30 yards

Rewatching the old games that I listed really drives this home. Those end of game drives had the plays that I want to see consistently that would open up the offense so much. Frustrating.

[R2Dawg]

The air raid we ran was trash. That's facts.

The Heupel version is solid. We weren't in the same stratosphere as that version. The Heupel air raid is like a fighter jet, and ours was like a fart in a whirlwind.

Yep, all true.

This is where koolaid drinkers can't discern the difference.

[R2Dawg]

It would help if we had a QB that wasn?t a statue and could throw it more than 30 yards

Any offense looks good with Tom Brady back there. Will executed what he was coached to execute. If not, he doesn't continue to be in there. Will produced just like every other true air raid guy too.

Will is what he is, gotta quit putting all this on Will.

[msstate7]

3 of the 4 playoff teams were top 25 rushing teams. Only 1 of the playoff teams were a top 25 passing team.

[Dawgface]

It would help if we had a QB that wasn?t a statue and could throw it more than 30 yards

Running the newer version of the AR would have been very difficult with Will. If Parsons is all he is made out to be it can work. But we may be running the wishbone next year for all I know.

[Tater]

3 of the 4 playoff teams were top 25 rushing teams. Only 1 of the playoff teams were a top 25 passing team.

Wow, teams who won all their games ran the ball more. Breaking news. You know as well as I do how bad of a stat that yards can be.

Let's look at those team's rankings shall we?
Georgia 23 in run / 15 in pass
TCU 20 in run / 29 in pass
Michigan 5 in run / 83 in pass
Ohio State 32 in run / 14 in pass

Oops. Looks like two are in the top 25.

2 of the 4 playoff teams were top 15 passing
1 of the 4 playoff teams were top 15 rushing

3 of the 4 playoff teams were top 30 passing
3 of the 4 playoff teams were top 30 rushing

(This is where I say reality can be whatever I want it to be)

Note: 3 of the 4 playoff teams had their QB at the Heisman ceremony.

[msstate7]

Wow, teams who won all their games ran the ball more. Breaking news. You know as well as I do how bad of a stat that yards can be.

Let's look at those team's rankings shall we?
Georgia 23 in run / 15 in pass
TCU 20 in run / 29 in pass
Michigan 5 in run / 83 in pass
Ohio State 32 in run / 14 in pass

Oops. Looks like two are in the top 25.

2 of the 4 playoff teams were top 15 passing
1 of the 4 playoff teams were top 15 rushing

3 of the 4 playoff teams were top 30 passing
3 of the 4 playoff teams were top 30 rushing

(This is where I say reality can be whatever I want it to be)

Note: 3 of the 4 playoff teams had their QB at the Heisman ceremony.

You're correct. I was looking at the wrong thing on passing stats.

All your stats tell me is that you have to be able to do both - be balanced. Our offense of the past few years isn't a formula to win big

[msstate7]

Even though I think tcu is basically the result of hitting a 7-team parlay this year, they should be the one we look at the closest since they're around our talent level. They were 55.5% run heavy. And it wasn't bc they were winning all the time... 9 wins by less than 10 pts

[vindastra]

Costello and some brief moments of Will show this version can work too.

[msstate7]

Costello and some brief moments of Will show this version can work too.

Maybe so, but our style is gone now. No one runs it like leach. All his disciples have a more modern approach

[Reason2succeed]

Rewatching the old games that I listed really drives this home. Those end of game drives had the plays that I want to see consistently that would open up the offense so much. Frustrating.

That?s because Will is too conservative and cautious. At the end of games when we are losing or when we need a score he will actually throw in rhythm. He needs a strong dose of gunslinger serum or something.

[msstate7]

That?s because Will is too conservative and cautious. At the end of games when we are losing or when we need a score he will actually throw in rhythm. He needs a strong dose of gunslinger serum or something.

Favre says that's called Vicodin

[BuckyIsAB****]

3 of the 4 playoff teams were top 25 rushing teams. Only 1 of the playoff teams were a top 25 passing team.

Winner

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

We all agree the pure air raid isn't it. The question do we want to grab an air raid guy with modern tweaks, or do we want to blow to up and transition to a power run game? I think MS is better suited for the run game, but I'm worried that puts a cap on who we can beat and isn't best for next year.

[mo7888]

We all agree the pure air raid isn't it. The question do we want to grab an air raid guy with modern tweaks, or do we want to blow to up and transition to a power run game? I think MS is better suited for the run game, but I'm worried that puts a cap on who we can beat and isn't best for next year.

I'd be very disappointed if we went to a power run game. We'd have the same floor but a lower ceiling. We need to stay with the air raid (with modern adjustments). We'd have a similar floor but much higher ceiling.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Some of y'all need to decide on an offensive philosophy you want to see and stick with it. Y'all wanted us to throw more under Dan and Joe so we brought Leach on board and now those same people want to go back to the power spread. The exact quotes I heard were "we have to be different to win big". And now y'all want to go back to the offense you said would never take the next step.

It doesn't matter what philosophy we're running if your QB can't stretch the ball down the field. Tennessee's offense works not because the scheme is that much better, hell it's ours scheme. But when you have QB's with bazookas for arms you can take deep shots and it opens everything up. That's why we recruited Costello. Even though it didn't work out the guy had a bazooka for an arm. He had the ability to stretch the field. Most plays we run have someone on a deep route but when your QB is 40 year old Drew Brees who can't stretch the field you can't throw those routes so teams don't honor it. Which clogs everything up short. As I've said many times, I'm not advocating for replacing Will just to replace him. But you're gonna have to take a chance on bringing in a transfer and letting him battle.

[mo7888]

Some of y'all need to decide on an offensive philosophy you want to see and stick with it. Y'all wanted us to throw more under Dan and Joe so we brought Leach on board and now those same people want to go back to the power spread. The exact quotes I heard were "we have to be different to win big". And now y'all want to go back to the offense you said would never take the next step.

It doesn't matter what philosophy we're running if your QB can't stretch the ball down the field. Tennessee's offense works not because the scheme is that much better, hell it's ours scheme. But when you have QB's with bazookas for arms you can take deep shots and it opens everything up. That's why we recruited Costello. Even though it didn't work out the guy had a bazooka for an arm. He had the ability to stretch the field. Most plays we run have someone on a deep route but when your QB is 40 year old Drew Brees who can't stretch the field you can't throw those routes so teams don't honor it. Which clogs everything up short. As I've said many times, I'm not advocating for replacing Will just to replace him. But you're gonna have to take a chance on bringing in a transfer and letting him battle.

100%

[msstate7]

Some of y'all need to decide on an offensive philosophy you want to see and stick with it. Y'all wanted us to throw more under Dan and Joe so we brought Leach on board and now those same people want to go back to the power spread. The exact quotes I heard were "we have to be different to win big". And now y'all want to go back to the offense you said would never take the next step.

It doesn't matter what philosophy we're running if your QB can't stretch the ball down the field. Tennessee's offense works not because the scheme is that much better, hell it's ours scheme. But when you have QB's with bazookas for arms you can take deep shots and it opens everything up. That's why we recruited Costello. Even though it didn't work out the guy had a bazooka for an arm. He had the ability to stretch the field. Most plays we run have someone on a deep route but when your QB is 40 year old Drew Brees who can't stretch the field you can't throw those routes so teams don't honor it. Which clogs everything up short. As I've said many times, I'm not advocating for replacing Will just to replace him. But you're gonna have to take a chance on bringing in a transfer and letting him battle.

Not sure who you referring to, but I never wanted to throw 80% of the time. If you aren't using a dual threat qb these days, you better have a great qb and great WRs.

[R2Dawg]

Some of y'all need to decide on an offensive philosophy you want to see and stick with it. Y'all wanted us to throw more under Dan and Joe so we brought Leach on board and now those same people want to go back to the power spread. The exact quotes I heard were "we have to be different to win big". And now y'all want to go back to the offense you said would never take the next step.

It doesn't matter what philosophy we're running if your QB can't stretch the ball down the field. Tennessee's offense works not because the scheme is that much better, hell it's ours scheme. But when you have QB's with bazookas for arms you can take deep shots and it opens everything up. That's why we recruited Costello. Even though it didn't work out the guy had a bazooka for an arm. He had the ability to stretch the field. Most plays we run have someone on a deep route but when your QB is 40 year old Drew Brees who can't stretch the field you can't throw those routes so teams don't honor it. Which clogs everything up short. As I've said many times, I'm not advocating for replacing Will just to replace him. But you're gonna have to take a chance on bringing in a transfer and letting him battle.

Throw more is not more throw only. More balance is what most have been asking for for 40 years. The run is the base, if you can't run, you can't win big. We were a lucky kick away from 7-6 this year.

We only wanted Dan to throw downfield more, well we have the same problem now but less check down plays to defend.

[confucius say]

The air raid we ran was trash. That's facts.

The Heupel version is solid. We weren't in the same stratosphere as that version. The Heupel air raid is like a fighter jet, and ours was like a fart in a whirlwind.

Swap the two qb and what happens.
We had wr running wide open downfield vs Illinois. But will has a D2 arm. Accurate, but no arm.

That said, I would like to be able to run it better.

[CadaverDawg]

Even though I think tcu is basically the result of hitting a 7-team parlay this year, they should be the one we look at the closest since they're around our talent level. They were 55.5% run heavy. And it wasn't bc they were winning all the time... 9 wins by less than 10 pts

How much of TCU's run game was done by their QB? Because the games I've watched here lately of them, his legs have been a MAJOR factor. If our next OC doesn't want a mobile QB that can be a weapon with his legs in addition to his arm, then I don't want that OC. It is vital in this day and age to have a QB that can pick up a crucial first down in a big game when nobody is open and the pocket breaks down on 3rd and 6. I feel like the days of the statue QB are gone and never coming back

[StarkVegasSteve]

Throw more is not more throw only. More balance is what most have been asking for for 40 years. The run is the base, if you can't run, you can't win big. We were a lucky kick away from 7-6 this year.

We only wanted Dan to throw downfield more, well we have the same problem now but less check down plays to defend.

No our problem is now we have a QB who can't push the ball down the field. With Dan we had that, but we had a coach who didn't want to do it. Now, we have the offense to do it, but a QB who for whatever reason, my guess is arm strength, won't push the ball down the field.

[CadaverDawg]

Some of y'all need to decide on an offensive philosophy you want to see and stick with it. Y'all wanted us to throw more under Dan and Joe so we brought Leach on board and now those same people want to go back to the power spread. The exact quotes I heard were "we have to be different to win big". And now y'all want to go back to the offense you said would never take the next step.

It doesn't matter what philosophy we're running if your QB can't stretch the ball down the field. Tennessee's offense works not because the scheme is that much better, hell it's ours scheme. But when you have QB's with bazookas for arms you can take deep shots and it opens everything up. That's why we recruited Costello. Even though it didn't work out the guy had a bazooka for an arm. He had the ability to stretch the field. Most plays we run have someone on a deep route but when your QB is 40 year old Drew Brees who can't stretch the field you can't throw those routes so teams don't honor it. Which clogs everything up short. As I've said many times, I'm not advocating for replacing Will just to replace him. But you're gonna have to take a chance on bringing in a transfer and letting him battle.

I agree we have to have a big arm at QB, but we also have to have some mobility back there as well. I'd argue Will's lack of mobility was damn near as detrimental to our success as his weak arm.

I want there to be more balance. I don't mind leaning towards the pass, or even using a modern air raid...but a modern air raid must have a QB with arm strength and the ability to run as an added threat when spreading the field.

We will never have the talent to line up and run it down people's throats. But we must have some ground game or we're too easy to defend. That's why I feel like the QB running is so crucial. Our run game is good enough in the offense we ran this year IF IF the QB had been able to be a part of it. If Rogers had a bigger arm and could run, teams would have to respect him on the read option in fear he may keep it...and they also wouldn't have as many men near the line in fear of him throwing deep. Those two things would have added so much to our offense and ground attack.

As of now, our offense is defended by keying on 2 things....

1. Short passes within 15 yards
2. Direct handoffs to RB's

That is too damn easy.

Add a bigger arm and just a little mobility to the QB, and suddenly you have this to defend....

1. Short passing game
2. Deep passing game
3. Running back handoff
4. QB keeper on the read option
5. QB scramble when coverage is good

Adding a deep game, and a QB threat to run is 1000% the only thing that held us back.

[yjnkdawg]

I don't care whether it is a 60-40 passing offense, 60-40 run offense, or whatever. Percentages don't mean anything in a specific game . Let's get an OC who hopefully will adjust and take what the defense will give us and we can pass or run effectively, and score points.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I agree we have to have a big arm at QB, but we also have to have some mobility back there as well. I'd argue Will's lack of mobility was damn near as detrimental to our success as his weak arm.

I want there to be more balance. I don't mind leaning towards the pass, or even using a modern air raid...but a modern air raid must have a QB with arm strength and the ability to run as an added threat when spreading the field.

We will never have the talent to line up and run it down people's throats. But we must have some ground game or we're too easy to defend. That's why I feel like the QB running is so crucial. Our run game is good enough in the offense we ran this year IF IF the QB had been able to be a part of it. If Rogers had a bigger arm and could run, teams would have to respect him on the read option in fear he may keep it...and they also wouldn't have as many men near the line in fear of him throwing deep. Those two things would have added so much to our offense and ground attack.

As of now, our offense is defended by keying on 2 things....

1. Short passes within 15 yards
2. Direct handoffs to RB's

That is too damn easy.

Add a bigger arm and just a little mobility to the QB, and suddenly you have this to defend....

1. Short passing game
2. Deep passing game
3. Running back handoff
4. QB keeper on the read option
5. QB scramble when coverage is good

Adding a deep game, and a QB threat to run is 1000% the only thing that held us back.

You're on to something with the mobility. That opens everything up. Underneath routes as well as the over the top. That's why I wonder if a new OC, if we stayed in this Air Raid or some modification of it, would kick the tires on Spencer Sanders. I don't know that he's a better passer than Will, but he's 10x the athlete. You know a guy like Donovan Smith at TTU would've been a dream, but he transferred to Houston to play for Dana.

[BlackSailsDawg]

Not sure who you referring to, but I never wanted to throw 80% of the time. If you aren't using a dual threat qb these days, you better have a great qb and great WRs.

Yep. Even Leach was moving to run it more and recruiting that.

Give me air raid +

[Lord McBuckethead]

Some of y'all need to decide on an offensive philosophy you want to see and stick with it. Y'all wanted us to throw more under Dan and Joe so we brought Leach on board and now those same people want to go back to the power spread. The exact quotes I heard were "we have to be different to win big". And now y'all want to go back to the offense you said would never take the next step.

It doesn't matter what philosophy we're running if your QB can't stretch the ball down the field. Tennessee's offense works not because the scheme is that much better, hell it's ours scheme. But when you have QB's with bazookas for arms you can take deep shots and it opens everything up. That's why we recruited Costello. Even though it didn't work out the guy had a bazooka for an arm. He had the ability to stretch the field. Most plays we run have someone on a deep route but when your QB is 40 year old Drew Brees who can't stretch the field you can't throw those routes so teams don't honor it. Which clogs everything up short. As I've said many times, I'm not advocating for replacing Will just to replace him. But you're gonna have to take a chance on bringing in a transfer and letting him battle.

This is the truest post to have ever been posted on elitedawgs. This has been our problem. Now the only caveat I would add, our OL may not have allowed for too many shots this year against SEC DL.

Which brings us to the next biggest difference in between our qb play and Tenn, running ability. It would have helped our OL if our QB could scramble if his 1st and 2nd choice were covered. Scramble out looking for the deep shot and pick up yards if nothing is there. Keeps the DL from bullrushing deep in our pocket every single snap.

[CadaverDawg]

You're on to something with the mobility. That opens everything up. Underneath routes as well as the over the top. That's why I wonder if a new OC, if we stayed in this Air Raid or some modification of it, would kick the tires on Spencer Sanders. I don't know that he's a better passer than Will, but he's 10x the athlete. You know a guy like Donovan Smith at TTU would've been a dream, but he transferred to Houston to play for Dana.

Agree, Smith would have been great

[R2Dawg]

No our problem is now we have a QB who can't push the ball down the field. With Dan we had that, but we had a coach who didn't want to do it. Now, we have the offense to do it, but a QB who for whatever reason, my guess is arm strength, won't push the ball down the field.

We've had what one QB who could push ball down field in 20 years? Check down Charlie, remember that with Dan. Going downfield ain't a Will only issue. The old air raid is short passes, death by a thousand cuts if you are perfect enough. That is what it is.

All you have to do is look at our routes. That mesh crossing pattern, flat screens, RB dump downs, are 80% of our O.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Watching the TCU/Okie St replay. Spencer Sanders would have probably made us 2 wins better last season. Why is he transferring?

[Bdawg]

I agree we have to have a big arm at QB, but we also have to have some mobility back there as well. I'd argue Will's lack of mobility was damn near as detrimental to our success as his weak arm.

I want there to be more balance. I don't mind leaning towards the pass, or even using a modern air raid...but a modern air raid must have a QB with arm strength and the ability to run as an added threat when spreading the field.

We will never have the talent to line up and run it down people's throats. But we must have some ground game or we're too easy to defend. That's why I feel like the QB running is so crucial. Our run game is good enough in the offense we ran this year IF IF the QB had been able to be a part of it. If Rogers had a bigger arm and could run, teams would have to respect him on the read option in fear he may keep it...and they also wouldn't have as many men near the line in fear of him throwing deep. Those two things would have added so much to our offense and ground attack.

As of now, our offense is defended by keying on 2 things....

1. Short passes within 15 yards
2. Direct handoffs to RB's

That is too damn easy.

Add a bigger arm and just a little mobility to the QB, and suddenly you have this to defend....

1. Short passing game
2. Deep passing game
3. Running back handoff
4. QB keeper on the read option
5. QB scramble when coverage is good

Adding a deep game, and a QB threat to run is 1000% the only thing that held us back.

Can’t give you any more rep. And yes, I would like to keep AR concepts but add in a more sophisticated running attack to keep the defense off balance. Will did fairly good but his arm and lack of mobility held the offense back. The threat of QB run is a game changer and we have to recruit that going forward(like Leach was doing).


I don't care whether it is a 60-40 passing offense, 60-40 run offense, or whatever. Percentages don't mean anything in a specific game . Let's get an OC who hopefully will adjust and take what the defense will give us and we can pass or run effectively, and score points.

Yes!! Run the offense but be versatile!!!

[Bdawg]

Even Washington’s QB is keeping drives alive with his legs today. We are missing that big time with our QB

[confucius say]

We've had what one QB who could push ball down field in 20 years? Check down Charlie, remember that with Dan. Going downfield ain't a Will only issue. The old air raid is short passes, death by a thousand cuts if you are perfect enough. That is what it is.

All you have to do is look at our routes. That mesh crossing pattern, flat screens, RB dump downs, are 80% of our O.

4 verts is an air raid staple and we never run it.

[Tater]

4 verts is an air raid staple and we never run it.

Ding ding ding.

Leach said that this was something he would spend a full practice on every 6th practice. That's been the big piece missing from our offense.

[StarkVegasSteve]

4 verts is an air raid staple and we never run it.

Hard to do it when you don't have a QB that can't make that throw. We b****ed about Moorhead trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Leach was just running plays that he knew would work. We ran 4 verts concepts with KJ. Go back and watch the LSU game.

[BuckyIsAB****]

4 verts is an air raid staple and we never run it.

Hahaha

[Tater]

Hahaha

Not sure what you're laughing at. Between the last two games, the Tulu TD at end of half in Egg Bowl is the only time I remember a pass being attempted on a Four Verts concept.

1 successful run in two games for a play/concept that leach preached practicing in such depth is basically never running it.

So please elaborate what's so funny.

[Quaoarsking]

4 verts is an air raid staple and we never run it.

It's interesting, as in Swing Your Sword he talked at length about how this is his favorite play and he ran it often at Texas Tech.

[Tater]

It's interesting, as in Swing Your Sword he talked at length about how this is his favorite play and he ran it often at Texas Tech.

He literally says it's his philosophy to spend a full practice on it every 6th practice lmao. Straight from the horse's mouth.

[Coach34]

Rogers cant throw 4 verts- end of story

[Commercecomet24]

I just watched a replay of the 2006 insight bowl where ttu came back from a 38-7 deficit with 7 minutes left in third quarter. They ran 4 verts quite often in that game. Graham Harrell didn't have a great arm but he completed quite a few. Yeah leach has always run 4 verts.

[confucius say]

Rogers cant throw 4 verts- end of story

That's my point. It's not the system. Switch hooker and Rogers and watch the down field shots switch too.
It's the same reason we never ran the ball in 2020. We had two true freshman backs and a bad Oline: we couldn't do it.

[Coach34]

That's my point. It's not the system. Switch hooker and Rogers and watch the down field shots switch too.
It's the same reason we never ran the ball in 2020. We had two true freshman backs and a bad Oline: we couldn't do it.

Regardless- the pure Air Raid died with Leach. Our offense is going to change

[Dawgface]

Regardless- the pure Air Raid died with Leach. Our offense is going to change

Bobo will see to that. **

[Todd4State]

I keep waiting for that moment for MSU fans to stop and realize that players are more important than scheme.

That's a big part of our problem as a program. We keep trying to find coaching geniuses to outscheme the bluebloods in the SEC instead of pumping money into recruiting as much as we should.

Our last three coaches all averaged between 25-37 points per game in general and that was with three pretty different schemes. If we want to take that up a notch we're going to have to start getting more legit 4 star offensive players especially at WR.

Not a coincidence that Ole Miss beat Alabama when they had Nkemsiche and Tunsil and etc playing for them.

[dawgday166]

I hope the Air Raid is toast. I been hankering for some 3rd and 8 QB draws.

[msstate7]

I hope the Air Raid is toast. I been hankering for some 3rd and 8 QB draws.

Our conversion rate on 3rd down better in 2017 than Leach's best year - 2021.

[Coach34]

Our conversion rate on 3rd down better in 2017 than Leach's best year - 2021.

These morons trying to make fun of Mullen’s offense is baffling to me. We were better on offense under Mullen than we ever were under Leach

[dawgday166]

Our conversion rate on 3rd down better in 2017 than Leach's best year - 2021.

Lol ... I kid around about your boy Mullen's offense and the fangs come out ****

[dawgday166]

These morons trying to make fun of Mullen?s offense is baffling to me. We were better on offense under Mullen than we ever were under Leach

We were 28th in total offense in 2021 and 46th in 2017. This year with same QB we were 62nd. The same QB was better in 2021 than this year. Maybe it's QB, maybe it's WRs, whatever but IMO Will regressed.

And if I recall correctly, you were very critical of Mullen thru the years.

However, I was just joking. Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest LOL

[BuckyIsAB****]

Im not going to sit here and argue with you guys about whether or not we ran four verticals. Would be a huge waste of time. That is just stupid. Yall either A dont really know what it is or B just talking out of your ass about a subject you know nothing about.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Rogers cant throw 4 verts- end of story

Youre wrong. Does it all the time. Every game. This is one of the stupidest arguments Ive seen made on this board. And there have been some doozies

[BuckyIsAB****]

Not sure what you're laughing at. Between the last two games, the Tulu TD at end of half in Egg Bowl is the only time I remember a pass being attempted on a Four Verts concept.

1 successful run in two games for a play/concept that leach preached practicing in such depth is basically never running it.

So please elaborate what's so funny.

That was not four verticals. So please educate me. I am all ears. If you honest to God think we have not ran four verticals at Ms State with Will Rogers I worry about your day to day life

[BuckyIsAB****]

I said I wasnt gonna do it but I cant help myself. Four verticals is not madden four verticals for you air raid geniuses. It can turn out to be a number of different routes off of one concept. It is not four guys run deep and ill throw it to you. It is not four fade routes. It all depends on what the defense does.

[RisperDawg]

Im not going to sit here and argue with you guys about whether or not we ran four verticals. Would be a huge waste of time. That is just stupid. Yall either A dont really know what it is or B just talking out of your ass about a subject you know nothing about.

I'm not sure i understand the practical difference between A and B. Lol.

[BuckyIsAB****]

I'm not sure i understand the practical difference between A and B. Lol.

I could have worded that better

[Coach34]

Youre wrong. Does it all the time. Every game. This is one of the stupidest arguments Ive seen made on this board. And there have been some doozies

Noooo- no I'm not. He may have thrown it a couple times but it's a rarity because he doesnt have the arm.

It's ok to admit he has some weaknesses. My 13 year old son- while 6'3- struggles to shoot the basketball. And that kills me because I could light it up. I'm 53 and can still make 5/10 3's. Seeing your son go 2/10 from the FT line is frustrating.

Will is who he is at this point. Acting like his arm isnt weak at this point just makes you look clownish.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Noooo- no I'm not. He may have thrown it a couple times but it's a rarity because he doesnt have the arm.

It's ok to admit he has some weaknesses. My 13 year old son- while 6'3- struggles to shoot the basketball. And that kills me because I could light it up. I'm 53 and can still make 5/10 3's. Seeing your son go 2/10 from the FT line is frustrating.

Will is who he is at this point. Acting like his arm isnt weak at this point just makes you look clownish.

Wrong. Couldnt be more wrong. Sorry. This is probably the worst hill to die on that you could pick. Its like arguing whether water is wet or not

[Coach34]

Wrong. Couldnt be more wrong. Sorry. This is probably the worst hill to die on that you could pick. Its like arguing whether water is wet or not

ok

[BuckyIsAB****]

Just to illustrate my point, not even taking football into the equation in which I could prove you to be wrong multiple ways, if the kid literally talks about having a 6 day with Coach Leach again one day the day he passes on his own social media for all of creation to see, I would probably think that is a play we ran a lot. But who am I to guess

[BlackSailsDawg]

These morons trying to make fun of Mullen?s offense is baffling to me. We were better on offense under Mullen than we ever were under Leach

Nope.

[smootness]

Bucky is 100% right on this one. Four verts is not ‘everybody go deep’.

[Coach34]

Nope.

Please provide facts to back up your "nope"

[BlackSailsDawg]

Bucky is 100% right on this one. Four verts is not ‘everybody go deep’.

Yes he is right. I think they really do believe it's back yard ball and "everybody go long".

[Coach34]

Bucky is 100% right on this one. Four verts is not ‘everybody go deep’.

No he isnt. Of course 4 verts isnt everybody go deep because routes change according to Cover 2, Cover 3, and Cover 4- but it does involve WR's running the Green, aka 9, aka fade, aka vertical route. We didnt do that very often these last 3 years. Thats a fact

[BlackSailsDawg]

Please provide facts to back up your "nope"

There is no need. We all know what you are going to do.

[Coach34]

Yes he is right. I think they really do believe it's back yard ball and "everybody go long".

define vertical please

[Coach34]

There is no need. We all know what you are going to do.

Yes- I'm going to blast your ass with actual facts and make you look stupid. I was giving you a chance to somehow keep yourself from looking rahtarded

[Todd4State]

These morons trying to make fun of Mullen?s offense is baffling to me. We were better on offense under Mullen than we ever were under Leach

Leach's offense in year two and three was better than Dan's in year two and three if we want an apples to apples comparison. Dan didn't even crack 30 PPG until 2014. Leach did that in year three.

[BlackSailsDawg]

Yes- I'm going to blast your ass with actual facts and make you look stupid. I was giving you a chance to somehow keep yourself from looking rahtarded

No, you are going to twist and turn and tie yourself in knots trying to, but you can't.

[Todd4State]

We were 28th in total offense in 2021 and 46th in 2017. This year with same QB we were 62nd. The same QB was better in 2021 than this year. Maybe it's QB, maybe it's WRs, whatever but IMO Will regressed.

And if I recall correctly, you were very critical of Mullen thru the years.

However, I was just joking. Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest LOL

The biggest differences between 2022 and 2021 to me- no Makai Polk and we played Vanderbilt in 2021 instead of Georgia.

Our WR's are a bigger issue than Will. I think part of it is Tulu playing out of position IMO when he should be in the slot. Give him Harvey's 50 receptions in space and he'll kill it and make us better. We still need at least one legit outside deep presence. Ducking disappeared the second half of the year and RaRa was inconsistent at times while also flashing at times as well.

[BuckyIsAB****]

No he isnt. Of course 4 verts isnt everybody go deep because routes change according to Cover 2, Cover 3, and Cover 4- but it does involve WR's running the Green, aka 9, aka fade, aka vertical route. We didnt do that very often these last 3 years. Thats a fact

Because there was almost always 2 high safeties a lot of times 3. So they would either do right and sit down in the grass on the slots or they would do wrong and run themselves covered. And on the outside they would either run the re trace or keep running vertical depending on the corner. Like Polk did over and over. Or if we tagged a dig off of it or something along those lines. And Ill let you in on a secret, our WRs dont do a whole lot right consistently. This year we were so bad at WR that teams just played man free and we had no options bc our rules were throw it vs 6 in the box but when you cant get any separation consistently and your best run is inside zone but you never actually read the end you are in trouble. But you carry on. So Yes I am right. Those are the facts.

[BlackSailsDawg]

Leach's offense in year two and three was better than Dan's in year two and three if we want an apples to apples comparison. Dan didn't even crack 30 PPG until 2014. Leach did that in year three.

Oh I could point out that in year 3 that Leach scored 10 TDs more while having 600 plus more yards and a tougher schedule. Or that we had 9 INTs for each of the past 2 years while under Mullen we had more but threw it way less.

[BlackSailsDawg]

Because there was almost always 2 high safeties a lot of times 3. So they would either do right and sit down in the grass on the slots or they would do wrong and run themselves covered. And on the outside they would either run the re trace or keep running vertical depending on the corner. Like Polk did over and over. Or if we tagged a dig off of it or something along those lines. And Ill let you in on a secret, our WRs dont do a whole lot right consistently. This year we were so bad at WR that teams just played man free and we had no options bc our rules were throw it vs 6 in the box but when you cant get any separation consistently and your best run is inside zone but you never actually read the end you are in trouble. But you carry on. So Yes I am right. Those are the facts.

100% accurate.

[Todd4State]

Oh I could point out that in year 3 that Leach scored 10 TDs more while having 600 plus more yards and a tougher schedule. Or that we had 9 INTs for each of the past 2 years while under Mullen we had more but threw it way less.

If Leach had lived I would have loved to have seen a year by year comparison. I'm 99% sure Leach would have outperformed him. He was well on his way to doing so.

[BlackSailsDawg]

If Leach had lived I would have loved to have seen a year by year comparison. I'm 99% sure Leach would have outperformed him. He was well on his way to doing so.

It would have been great to see him last through the Parson years.

[Todd4State]

It would have been great to see him last through the Parson years.


Oh absolutely! It's a tragedy for us. It really is.

[Really Clark?]

Leach's offense in year two and three was better than Dan's in year two and three if we want an apples to apples comparison. Dan didn't even crack 30 PPG until 2014. Leach did that in year three.

That's true for 2011 but disagree on 2010. Also 2010-2011 the SEC west was exponentially more difficult than 2021-2022. We also had our QB hurt / missing games in 2011. Even had to go to QB3 at one point. So year three comparisons are hard to say are apple to apple too.

Offenses in general are scoring more today than 10 years ago too. 42 teams scored 30 or more points per game in 2010-2011. 52 teams did last year and 54 this year. In fact it's kind of interesting to look at points from 2000-2009, the 2010-2011 bump then it's been over 50 teams ever year since (sometimes nearly half of all D1 teams avg 30 or more)

So in rankings we were 48th in 2010 and 60th in 2021 while scoring the same points per game. You either have to come down that 2010 was an actual better offense because of the rankings of the time or they were equal.

[confucius say]

Regardless- the pure Air Raid died with Leach. Our offense is going to change

I agree with that

[confucius say]

These morons trying to make fun of Mullen’s offense is baffling to me. We were better on offense under Mullen than we ever were under Leach

Well Dan had way better qb fits for his system. I mean one is on track to be a borderline hall of famer with the numbers he is putting up in the nfl

The truth is, both systems have us around 7 wins on average and can peak to 10-ish wins with an nfl qb.

[msstate7]

Well Dan had way better qb fits for his system. I mean one is on track to be a borderline hall of famer with the numbers he is putting up in the nfl

The truth is, both systems have us around 7 wins on average and can peak to 10-ish wins with an nfl qb.

Dan got those fits pre-portal age. Can't really use no qb fit as an excuse 3 years in present day CFB

[William Tecumsah Sherman]

Leach was making adjustments. He recognized a mobile QB is needed. Parson signing and the offer to Trey Petty make it clear.

[confucius say]

Dan got those fits pre-portal age. Can't really use no qb fit as an excuse 3 years in present day CFB

I'm simply talking about which system is more effective here. Not defending leach's qb recruiting.

[TorpedoIPA]

I said I wasnt gonna do it but I cant help myself. Four verticals is not madden four verticals for you air raid geniuses. It can turn out to be a number of different routes off of one concept. It is not four guys run deep and ill throw it to you. It is not four fade routes. It all depends on what the defense does.

This is true. The four receivers head straight out but can turn to open grass or stop when they are open. That's the way I understand it.

Anyway, I think the offensive linemen already here were not necessarily Leach's type. As he brings in his guys and they gain experience several years in the air raid, the QB will be able to hold the ball longer and throw further down field.

We had to shift several guys around this year on the OL. I look forward to seeing what Percy Lewis does in 2023 at LT.

That's my thinking anyway.

[Todd4State]

That's true for 2011 but disagree on 2010. Also 2010-2011 the SEC west was exponentially more difficult than 2021-2022. We also had our QB hurt / missing games in 2011. Even had to go to QB3 at one point. So year three comparisons are hard to say are apple to apple too.

Offenses in general are scoring more today than 10 years ago too. 42 teams scored 30 or more points per game in 2010-2011. 52 teams did last year and 54 this year. In fact it's kind of interesting to look at points from 2000-2009, the 2010-2011 bump then it's been over 50 teams ever year since (sometimes nearly half of all D1 teams avg 30 or more)

So in rankings we were 48th in 2010 and 60th in 2021 while scoring the same points per game. You either have to come down that 2010 was an actual better offense because of the rankings of the time or they were equal.

Our schedule this year was more brutal than it typically is. This year and 2010 were essentially the same season to me.

[Really Clark?]

Our schedule this year was more brutal than it typically is. This year and 2010 were essentially the same season to me.

Can't agree with that. 2010 we played 4 teams ranked in the Top 12 and they were all in the SEC West and our only losses in 2010. We played 3 Top 16 teams this year.

[Coach34]

Oh I could point out that in year 3 that Leach scored 10 TDs more while having 600 plus more yards and a tougher schedule. Or that we had 9 INTs for each of the past 2 years while under Mullen we had more but threw it way less.

And I could point out that they didnt start at the same points. Mullen took over a program with very little offensive talent and a QB room of Relf and Tyson Lee. There was no portal for Mullen to quickly insert talent. But I'm happy to talk about how Mullen averaged over 30 PPG his last 4 seasons at State as well as 29 PPG or more in 7 of 9 seasons

[Coach34]

Our schedule this year was more brutal than it typically is. This year and 2010 were essentially the same season to me.

2010 Final rankings:

1st- Auburn
8th- LSU
10th- Bama
12th- UPig

2013:

2nd- Auburn
4th- South Carolina
7th- Bama
14th- LSU

2018:

2nd- Bama
6th- LSU
7th- Florida
12th- Kentucky

[Really Clark?]

2010 Final rankings:

1st- Auburn
8th- LSU
10th- Bama
12th- UPig

2013:

2nd- Auburn
4th- South Carolina
7th- Bama
14th- LSU

2011:

1st - Bama
2nd - LSU
5th - Arkansas
9th - USCe
19th - Georgia

With a hurt QB1 who didn't play at all vs USCe and Arkansas

[BlackSailsDawg]

All of that is subjective to who each of those teams played. LSU in 2010 played Vandy, Tennessee, (both horrible teams) along with UF (who wasn't ranked), Ole Miss (4 wins), NC, WV, McNeese, La Monroe. That's 8 wins of their 10 regular season wins. MSU is their 9th win.

[confucius say]

Can't agree with that. 2010 we played 4 teams ranked in the Top 12 and they were all in the SEC West and our only losses in 2010. We played 3 Top 16 teams this year.

Yea but OM was light years better this year than 2010. And KY was better this year.
Plus we didn't have to play a P5 noncon in 2010.
Very little difference in 2010 and 2022, if any.

[confucius say]

And I could point out that they didnt start at the same points. Mullen took over a program with very little offensive talent and a QB room of Relf and Tyson Lee. There was no portal for Mullen to quickly insert talent. But I'm happy to talk about how Mullen averaged over 30 PPG his last 4 seasons at State as well as 29 PPG or more in 7 of 9 seasons

All the more reason I never understood why you repeatedly argued with me those last 4 seasons that you didn't want him to be our coach anymore and we were better off without him.

[Really Clark?]

All of that is subjective to who each of those teams played. LSU in 2010 played Vandy, Tennessee, (both horrible teams) along with UF (who wasn't ranked), Ole Miss (4 wins), NC, WV, McNeese, La Monroe. That's 8 wins of their 10 regular season wins. MSU is their 9th win.

Well they beat # 10 Bama, #15 Us, # 19 TAM (bowl game), 8 win NC, 9 win WV. In 2010 the only loss anybody of the Top 5 teams of SEC West had was against each other except #10 Bama losing to #22 USCe

[Really Clark?]

Yea but OM was light years better this year than 2010. And KY was better this year.

So, this years OM and Kentucky are not better than the 4 teams that ahead of us in 2010. We finished 15th. That's 5 teams in the SEC west that finished Top 15. SEC West top 5 teams only lost too SEC west Top 5 teams in 2010, except Bama's loss to USCe. 2010-2011 is historically considered the strongest competition for one division of a conference. You are hard pressed to even find comparable team strength in one conference much less in 1 division of a conference

[BlackSailsDawg]

Well they beat # 10 Bama, #15 Us, # 19 TAM (bowl game), 8 win NC, 9 win WV. In 2010 the only loss anybody of the Top 5 teams of SEC West had was against each other except #10 Bama losing to #22 USCe

Again that is subjective. Take WV. They had to win 2 of those games to marshall and Ucon in OT. It's easy to say they won "x" amount of games, but against who and what conference were they in.

NC.. their 8 wins were from Rutgers, EC, barely beat a 6 win Clemson, a 4 win Va, William and Mary, a 3 win duke, and OT win over a 6 win Tn team. Their lone quality win was against FSU where FSU missed a game winning FG.

[Really Clark?]

Again that is subjective. Take WV. They had to win 2 of those games to marshall and Ucon in OT. It's easy to say they won "x" amount of games, but against who and what conference were they in.

NC.. their 8 wins were from Rutgers, EC, barely beat a 6 win Clemson, a 4 win Va, William and Mary, a 3 win duke, and OT win over a 6 win Tn team. Their lone quality win was against FSU where FSU missed a game winning FG.

But what is not subjective is you can't find 1 division of a conference where the Top 5 teams finished inside the Top 15. Heck you are hard pressed to find a whole conference with 5 teams in the Top 15. When they literally beat everybody they played outside of their division (with exception of Bama losing to So Car). It's no longer subjective. That becomes historic. Find those comps because they are always slip ups, tough out of division opponents, etc. It is honestly a season where you could have taken any of the 4 non west division winners and placed them in the East or another conference and they are playing for title most likely. It was that difficult of a division.

[confucius say]

So, this years OM and Kentucky are not better than the 4 teams that ahead of us in 2010. We finished 15th. That's 5 teams in the SEC west that finished Top 15. SEC West top 5 teams only lost too SEC west Top 5 teams in 2010, except Bama's loss to USCe. 2010-2011 is historically considered the strongest competition for one division of a conference. You are hard pressed to even find comparable team strength in one conference much less in 1 division of a conference

I'm talking about the schedule as a whole. All 12 games. On the whole, there is minimal difference. 2010 had a better top 4 opponents but 2022 had a better bottom 8.
2010 had a harder top 4 sec games by two wins, 2022 had a way harder noncon,
same bottom 4 sec games.

2010
Auburn 14-0
LSU 10-2
Ark 10-2
Bama 9-3

5-7 Houston
Alcorn
1-11 Memphis
4-8 uab

4-8 Mississippi
6-6 KY
6-6 uga
7-5 Florida

2022
Uga 14-0
Bama 10-2
LSU 9-3
Mississippi 8-4

Etsu
BG 6-6
Memphis 6-6
AZ 5-7

KY 7-5
Ark 6-6
Auburn 5-7
Aggie 5-7