So we have two choices....

[CadaverDawg]

1. Be happy with 6-6/7-5 and continuing the bowl streak every year against someone like Miami of Ohio in the weed eater bowl. Meanwhile we continue to battle Vandy as the worst attended SEC football program, and overall enthusiasm continues to dwindle.

I know it sounds spoiled to complain about 7-5, but it is what it is. 7-5 has gotten stale. I just want us to have hope going in to big games. I can take 7-5 if we at least have a chance against the big boys. With Leach, we don't...and we won't. Argue all you want, but you know it's true.

2. Get rid of Leach/Encourage him to retire with pay....and take a chance on hiring someone that could potentially give us hope against the big boys.

I know it's risky. And it could result in Jimbo-like results. But we aren't beating LSU, Bama, Georgia, Tennessee, or Ole Miss again under Leach. Not with their current coaches. So do you risk losing the Belk bowl for a long shot chance at the Sugar?


I totally get the fear many have of going with a risky hire and potentially losing our bowl streak. I know we're poor State and it could be much worse. But how much NIL money will come in if we continue showing no ability to compete with the better teams? What is the advantage of staying at a pretty much guaranteed 6-6/7-5/8-4? These days damn near everyone goes bowling. Does anyone remember who won the Texas Bowl the last few years? Me neither.

We have to decide if we're wanting to try to compete, or if we're ok with being a 6-6 type program going forward. If you think we're going to increase our money as a 6-6/7-5 program...we're not. And yes, Ole Miss is committed and running circles around us. So are we going to get serious about football, or not? Are you good with 7-5 and a bowl while others are pumping in money to compete? You cool with pushing harder at hoops and baseball and sucking at football?

Those are the questions State fans and admin must answer. Are we all in on the #1 money maker sport, or are we too conservative (scared) to take a chance on being better? Maybe we can, maybe we can't...but as my grandpa said, "can't never could". I think we can do better. There's no way Ole Miss can consistently be top 15 taking Bama to the wire, and we have to settle for 30 point ass whippings against them. The Grove ain't that special...Oxford ain't that great....it's a commitment. A commitment we don't have. We can, we should...we don't. We would rather feel sorry for ourselves. Ole Miss is elitist, and pricks...but you can't deny their confidence, and the expectations they have. We are chicken shits with no confidence we can step up and get it done. So we settle. We settle for mediocre. We settle for a little better than average. We settle for "upper half of the league". "It's the SEC West" after all. "These teams have more money than us". "These teams have towns with more to offer". Bunch of damn excuses if you ask me.

Commit, 100%...or commit to not committing so those that want to win at a high level can commit their time and money and weekends to something or somebody that wants to succeed.

[Todd4State]

We're going to have to actually commit to recruiting at a much higher level than we are. Period. MSU as an AD has never done that. That's the biggest reason why we are stuck at 6-8 wins.

The problem is MSU fans and the AD have always tried to "do more with less" by bringing in some football guru to outscheme the SEC with lesser talented players and that is only going to get us so far.

I think it's because pre NIL we always ended up on probation and MSU always heavily penalized itself as a reaction. This discouraged our boosters from cheating or getting organized like we could and should have. It's also the biggest reason we got behind in NIL with Cohen not having a clue what he was doing as reason 1B.

I think that instead of blowing everything up as a program every few years let's actually invest in recruiting and see what we can build. We recruit reasonably well in other sports there is no reason why we can't in football.

[CadaverDawg]

We're going to have to actually commit to recruiting at a much higher level than we are. Period. MSU as an AD has never done that. That's the biggest reason why we are stuck at 6-8 wins.

The problem is MSU fans and the AD have always tried to "do more with less" by bringing in some football guru to outscheme the SEC with lesser talented players and that is only going to get us so far.

I think it's because pre NIL we always ended up on probation and MSU always heavily penalized itself as a reaction. This discouraged our boosters from cheating or getting organized like we could and should have. It's also the biggest reason we got behind in NIL with Cohen not having a clue what he was doing as reason 1B.

I think that instead of blowing everything up as a program every few years let's actually invest in recruiting and see what we can build. We recruit reasonably well in other sports there is no reason why we can't in football.

I would agree with that if we still had Mullen...a guy that could have won huge here with better recruiting. But Leach is the same with a roster full of 2 stars as he is a roster full of 4 stars...so I'm not sure HE is the guy to finally start recruiting big with. We have to continue as many high 3 and 4 stars as possible, plus a 5 star every few seasons in the trenches, all while increasing our coaching and transfer portal production. Easier said than done, but much more likely to land a slightly better class and hire a much better coach, than to increase our recruiting ranking 20 spots and hope Leach can turn that into a West Championship. Ole Miss isn't recruiting top 10, but they have the right coach, for example. We will have to do similar imo

[Quaoarsking]

Miami of Ohio is who you get when you go 5-7, not 7-5. Why exaggerate and overstate your case?

[CadaverDawg]

And I'll add this...

If Ole Miss continues to knock on the door, they'll break through and win the West soon. So wake up now, or that will wake our fan base up. Sad that it takes Ole Miss winning big for us to realize how comfortable we've gotten with mediocre. Pathetic really.

But if they had beaten Bama today and LSU lost (which both damn near happened), our fan base would be freaking the F out.

[CadaverDawg]

Miami of Ohio is who you get when you go 5-7, not 7-5. Why exaggerate and overstate your case?

Ha, the fact we know that and it's being used to argue me, shows exactly where we are as a program. The defense rests

[Quaoarsking]

And I'll add this...

If Ole Miss continues to knock on the door, they'll break through and win the West soon. So wake up now, or that will wake our fan base up. Sad that it takes Ole Miss winning big for us to realize how comfortable we've gotten with mediocre. Pathetic really.

But if they had beaten Bama today and LSU lost (which both damn near happened), our fan base would be freaking the F out.

Most of our fans were comfortable with Mullen (equal to Leach) and a lot of them were comfortable with Moorhead (clearly worse). I think that the Leach hatred is primarily driven by Ole Miss having a couple of good years and not anything that Leach has done himself. Why are we letting Ole Miss live in our heads and affect our own opinions so much?

[Quaoarsking]

Ha, the fact we know that and it's being used to argue me, shows exactly where we are as a program. The defense rests

Is "Ha! I was wrong on PURPOSE and you pointing that out proves that I'm actually right!" really the best you can do?

[msu15]

Miami of Ohio is who you get when you go 5-7, not 7-5. Why exaggerate and overstate your case?

Man some of you are so brain dead it's appalling.

[CadaverDawg]

Most of our fans were comfortable with Mullen (equal to Leach) and a lot of them were comfortable with Moorhead (clearly worse). I think that the Leach hatred is primarily driven by Ole Miss having a couple of good years and not anything that Leach has done himself. Why are we letting Ole Miss live in our heads and affect our own opinions so much?

I totally disagree. Leach came in as an "offensive guru", and our defense has carried us every single year so far. Our offense absolutely sucks against decent to good teams. The Leach frustration has everything to do with his air raid NOT raiding the air. But you can believe his losses to Ole Miss aren't helping...nor should they.

The bigger question is what in the world are people like you seeing that makes you defend him so hard. Becasue I can admit when Leach has a good game...but people like you absolutely will never admit to him having a bad game or doing a bad job. It's weird. Leach is not bigger than State. No matter what his resume is.

[CadaverDawg]

Is "Ha! I was wrong on PURPOSE and you pointing that out proves that I'm actually right!" really the best you can do?

Nope, I legit didn't remember what bowl we played them in. Would Louisville or Tulsa have been better examples of some of the behemoths we've duked it out with in bowls?? That sound better? Some Giants, big names, for sure. How dare I mix up Miami Ohio with a beast like Tulsa.

[Todd4State]

I would agree with that if we still had Mullen...a guy that could have won huge here with better recruiting. But Leach is the same with a roster full of 2 stars as he is a roster full of 4 stars...so I'm not sure HE is the guy to finally start recruiting big with. We have to continue as many high 3 and 4 stars as possible, plus a 5 star every few seasons in the trenches, all while increasing our coaching and transfer portal production. Easier said than done, but much more likely to land a slightly better class and hire a much better coach, than to increase our recruiting ranking 20 spots and hope Leach can turn that into a West Championship. Ole Miss isn't recruiting top 10, but they have the right coach, for example. We will have to do similar imo

That's quite an assumption given that Dan was horrible at recruiting and worse at it than Leach.

We don't have to be top 10 to make a jump. We should shoot for top 20.

[Todd4State]

I totally disagree. Leach came in as an "offensive guru", and our defense has carried us every single year so far. Our offense absolutely sucks against decent to good teams. The Leach frustration has everything to do with his air raid NOT raiding the air. But you can believe his losses to Ole Miss aren't helping...nor should they.

The bigger question is what in the world are people like you seeing that makes you defend him so hard. Becasue I can admit when Leach has a good game...but people like you absolutely will never admit to him having a bad game or doing a bad job. It's weird. Leach is not bigger than State. No matter what his resume is.

The difference is Leach has a good track record with patience.

Statistically our offense has been as good or better than most of Dan's. And that's with a p**** playing QB. Georgia was allowing like 10 PPG coming into tonight. We scored 13.

I want to see what Leach can do with a different QB and 4-5 classes of receivers.

You can say he isn't changing but then we have Chris Parson as a QB recruit.

[CadaverDawg]

That's quite an assumption given that Dan was horrible at recruiting and worse at it than Leach.

We don't have to be top 10 to make a jump. We should shoot for top 20.

I thought we were talking about if our recruiting was significantly better under specific coaches. Leach isn't a big time
Recruiter either...so I thought you meant using the money to help us recruit. It won't increase the amount Leach puts into it, just like it wouldn't Mullen. But the money would help.

And since Mullen won 10 games and had a balanced attack with stout defenses....and Leach isn't even our best coach on the field each Saturday....I would definitely say Mullen could win much bigger than Leach if each had a top 15-20 class each year. But that's just me and I'm aware it can't be proven.

[Todd4State]

I thought we were talking about if our recruiting was significantly better under specific coaches. Leach isn't a big time
Recruiter either...so I thought you meant using the money to help us recruit. It won't increase the amount Leach puts into it, just like it wouldn't Mullen. But the money would help.

And since Mullen won 10 games and had a balanced attack with stout defenses....and Leach isn't even our best coach on the field each Saturday....I would definitely say Mullen could win much bigger than Leach if each had a top 15-20 class each year. But that's just me and I'm aware it can't be proven.

Well Leach has won 11 before- twice. Something Dan only did at Florida with someone else's players. And yes Leach's staff recruits harder than Dan's did.

Dan's offense was not balanced. It was run heavy.

[CadaverDawg]

The difference is Leach has a good track record with patience.

Statistically our offense has been as good or better than most of Dan's. And that's with a p**** playing QB. Georgia was allowing like 10 PPG coming into tonight. We scored 13.

I want to see what Leach can do with a different QB and 4-5 classes of receivers.

You can say he isn't changing but then we have Chris Parson as a QB recruit.

So we have to go through 3 more years of this shit and hope Parson sticks around before we get to see him? No thanks.

[CadaverDawg]

Well Leach has won 11 before- twice. Something Dan only did at Florida with someone else's players. And yes Leach's staff recruits harder than Dan's did.

Dan's offense was not balanced. It was run heavy.

1. Leach's staff has a lot of the same recruiters. And they may recruit harder, but the results are the same, or worse

2. Compared to Leach, Dan's offense was extremely balanced.

[Quaoarsking]

Nope, I legit didn't remember what bowl we played them in. Would Louisville or Tulsa have been better examples of some of the behemoths we've duked it out with in bowls?? That sound better? Some Giants, big names, for sure. How dare I mix up Miami Ohio with a beast like Tulsa.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or serious, but yes, Tulsa is a far better program than Miami (OH), and Louisville is a decent power 5 program. (?)

[Quaoarsking]

The bigger question is what in the world are people like you seeing that makes you defend him so hard. Becasue I can admit when Leach has a good game...but people like you absolutely will never admit to him having a bad game or doing a bad job. It's weird. Leach is not bigger than State. No matter what his resume is.

I'm completely baffled at where this notion is coming from. I was pretty vocally disappointed with our game against Kentucky. While I'm not going to get too upset with a road loss to a ranked (at the time team), I thought we were flat the whole time, and today especially that loss looks a lot worse.

I was a little disappointed with today. Now at no point before or during the season did I think we were going to win and I thought we fought OK (not hard, not well, but better than we have the last few weeks). A little bit better execution on offense and we could have had a 1-score or even tied game late in the 4th quarter. I just don't see us as that far off, even with the talent gap between us and Georgia being as big as it ever has been.

[Quaoarsking]

Dan's offense was extremely balanced.

Who cares though? At long as we win enough to be a mid-tier SEC program (virtually no coaches are going to be able to do better with the talent/recruiting situation), I don't care what offense we run.

[CadaverDawg]

Who cares though? At long as we win enough to be a mid-tier SEC program (virtually no coaches are going to be able to do better with the talent/recruiting situation), I don't care what offense we run.

Then just say your vote is for #1 in my OP. You are ok with being mediocre. That's all you had to say. It's why you and I disagree so much. You think our budget determines our status, and I don't. That's why you're fine with an offensive guru with no offense, as long as we keep that bowl win streak alive, and get another empty Music City Bowl game against Louisville that nobody watches or cares about. Its fine if you feel that way. It holds us back, but it's fine. If a majority of our fan base feels the same way you do, maybe it can convince me to quit caring since nobody else does. That's why I asked

[Quaoarsking]

Then just say your vote is for #1 in my OP. You are ok with being mediocre. That's all you had to say. It's why you and I disagree so much. You think our budget determines our status, and I don't. That's why you're fine with an offensive guru with no offense, as long as we keep that bowl win streak alive, and get another empty Music City Bowl game against Louisville that nobody watches or cares about. Its fine if you feel that way. It holds us back, but it's fine. If a majority of our fan base feels the same way you do, maybe it can convince me to quit caring since nobody else does. That's why I asked

If I recall correctly, you liked the Mullen Era as much as I did? Stability, being one of the top "non-elite" SEC schools year after year, not having bad non-bowl years like all the rest of them do. What changed? Why is it "mediocre" now when the same results weren't then?

I would love to win the College Football Playoff one day, but programs like us don't get there unless they build their way up, and going to 13 straight bowls without down years is how we can do that. Current recruits have never known of a year when we weren't a "decent" team, and that's a testament to Mullen and Leach.

[CadaverDawg]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or serious, but yes, Tulsa is a far better program than Miami (OH), and Louisville is a decent power 5 program. (?)

Stop playing dumb like you don't understand the point. Louisville may be better than Tulsa who is better than Miami.....but regardless, nobody is watching those teams play, and if you're playing them in a bowl game, you aren't in one that matters.

[CadaverDawg]

If I recall correctly, you liked the Mullen Era as much as I did? Stability, being one of the top "non-elite" SEC schools year after year, not having bad non-bowl years like all the rest of them do. What changed? Why is it "mediocre" now when the same results weren't then?

I would love to win the College Football Playoff one day, but programs like us don't get there unless they build their way up, and going to 13 straight bowls without down years is how we can do that. Current recruits have never known of a year when we weren't a "decent" team, and that's a testament to Mullen and Leach.

I liked Dan building us up, but once he proved he couldnt get over the hump, he got stale too. Mullen's biggest flaw was he wanted to bully teams in the trenches (which I loved) but he didn't have the hosses to bully the best teams and couldn't adjust. That's why I mentioned if he had a top 15 recruiting profile he could have won big here. He didn't recruit hard enough for his style to work enough to break through. And he job hunted too much.

I can't stand a coach that does the same exact thing over and over again against teams with more talent, and continue to watch it fail year after year. I feel like for $5 mil a year, you should at least be able to change it up, try something different, or something.

[Quaoarsking]

Let me put it this way ... if there's a coach out there that we can get who can do better than averaging 7-5, then by all means fire Leach tonight and hire him.

I'm just extremely skeptical that there is. I think if we make a good hire, it's probably someone who will average 7-5 like Mullen and Leach, and a bad hire is someone who averages much worse, and it's really hard to know if you have a good hire or a bad one in the interview.

I'd rather just keep our current 7-5 coach (whom I happen to like a lot personally, but that's beside the point) instead of playing Russian Roulette hoping to get another 7-5 coach but likely getting a worse one.

[Todd4State]

So we have to go through 3 more years of this shit and hope Parson sticks around before we get to see him? No thanks.

"This shit" is better than what Texas A&M, Auburn, and Arkansas have right now.

What I don't want to see is us fire Leach and then say "well damn we should have given him time."

[CadaverDawg]

Let me put it this way ... if there's a coach out there that we can get who can do better than averaging 7-5, then by all means fire Leach tonight and hire him.

I'm just extremely skeptical that there is. I think if we make a good hire, it's probably someone who will average 7-5 like Mullen and Leach, and a bad hire is someone who averages much worse, and it's really hard to know if you have a good hire or a bad one in the interview.

I'd rather just keep our current 7-5 coach (whom I happen to like a lot personally, but that's beside the point) instead of playing Russian Roulette hoping to get another 7-5 coach but likely getting a worse one.

Ok. So again, you're ok not competing to be the best. We have different thoughts, and that's ok. I would rather keep trying someone new until we can break through, than to just accept 7-5 bc we're scared we will do the same or worse if we change coaches.

What if when Croom was here we accepted having a coach that went to a bowl once every 5 years like he did? At the time, that was actually better than most of our coaches. Thank goodness we decided we could do better and fired him even after a bowl win.

If you aren't playing for Championships, why play? If you want to know why we are battling Vandy for the worst attendance figures this year despite having 6 wins....look no further than a bunch of people that go in to a season knowing there is no shot at a Championship of any kind. Not the West, not the SEC, not the National...probably not even the Egg Bowl. Even South Carolina fans came in to the year thinking they could compete in the East. They couldn't, but they had hope. The only teams whose fans truly knew going in they didn't have a shot, was ours and Vandy's...so we shouldn't be surprised that we do t fill the stadium much more than they do.

It's actually somewhat sad for those of us that truly think we can win big and want to do what it takes to try...are surrounded by people that don't. We probably waste our time getting invested, when the majority is probably cool with 6 wins and a holiday trip to Birmingham or Nashville

[Lord McBuckethead]

And his resume isn?t that good either as a head coach.

[Todd4State]

1. Leach's staff has a lot of the same recruiters. And they may recruit harder, but the results are the same, or worse

2. Compared to Leach, Dan's offense was extremely balanced.

1. The results are the same because of what we as a university invest in it. Even Dan was able to put together top 10-15 classes at Florida which is bad for them but better than here because of resources. Just like Leach recruits better here than he did at Wazzu.

2. And? Leach's offense is averaging more PPG than most of Dan's too. Would you rather score more or tell other fans that we run the ball the same amount of times as we throw it? I'll take score more please.

[CadaverDawg]

"This shit" is better than what Texas A&M, Auburn, and Arkansas have right now.

What I don't want to see is us fire Leach and then say "well damn we should have given him time."

Like Quars, you're in the #1 group in the OP. You're fine with 6-6/7-5. Don't want to risk losing the bowl streak to try and improve. That's fine, just ain't me. I actually respect A&M for trying to go out and get a guy they thought could win big. Hell, he beat Bama....but was ultimately a bust. It happens. But I guarantee A&M will win the West before we do. Why? Most will say "becasue they have the money"....but I disagree. I say it's because they have the commitment. Yes money is helpful, but they're willing to spend it, and eventually they'll find their guy and they'll win big. Why? Bc they don't accept 8-4 as their ceiling. They expect more, and are determined to get it...even if they have a few 4 and 5 win years along the way.

Could they have stayed with Sumlin and gotten the same or better results...yes. But they didn't want the same results. They wanted to win a Championship. And they will one day. We won't...bc we aren't as committed. Got to get outside your comfort zone if you want to improve from your status quo

[Todd4State]

Ok. So again, you're ok not competing to be the best. We have different thoughts, and that's ok. I would rather keep trying someone new until we can break through, than to just accept 7-5 bc we're scared we will do the same or worse if we change coaches.

What if when Croom was here we accepted having a coach that went to a bowl once every 5 years like he did? At the time, that was actually better than most of our coaches. Thank goodness we decided we could do better and fired him even after a bowl win.

If you aren't playing for Championships, why play? If you want to know why we are battling Vandy for the worst attendance figures this year despite having 6 wins....look no further than a bunch of people that go in to a season knowing there is no shot at a Championship of any kind. Not the West, not the SEC, not the National...probably not even the Egg Bowl. Even South Carolina fans came in to the year thinking they could compete in the East. They couldn't, but they had hope. The only teams whose fans truly knew going in they didn't have a shot, was ours and Vandy's...so we shouldn't be surprised that we do t fill the stadium much more than they do.

It's actually somewhat sad for those of us that truly think we can win big and want to do what it takes to try...are surrounded by people that don't. We probably waste our time getting invested, when the majority is probably cool with 6 wins and a holiday trip to Birmingham or Nashville

Wait. We "accepted" Croom for one bowl in five years? We fired him for that. Croom wasn't better than Jackie, Emory, or Tyler. We fired Felker after five as well and Croom went to one more bowl than he did. There was no accepting. We have him a fair opportunity and he failed. There's nothing more he could have asked for.

Leach hasn't done that. We'll be going to our third bowl under him. He's only had one losing season so far.

And you're going to sit here and tell people that are saying we should invest more in recruiting and getting better players that WE are accepting mediocrity because you want to watch us run the ball more? Really? GTFO.

[CadaverDawg]

1. The results are the same because of what we as a university invest in it. Even Dan was able to put together top 10-15 classes at Florida which is bad for them but better than here because of resources. Just like Leach recruits better here than he did at Wazzu.

2. And? Leach's offense is averaging more PPG than most of Dan's too. Would you rather score more or tell other fans that we run the ball the same amount of times as we throw it? I'll take score more please.

Scoring more doesn't matter when you're scoring 19 and losing by 30. I want to win, and one dimensional teams don't win in this league. That's my point. It's like a pitcher that throws 105 mph but only throws a fastball. Eventually, everyone catches up to it bc they know what's coming and how to prepare.

Bottom line is, Mullen raised our program to the level it is now. Now we need to find that guy that can take it to the next level, like from Croom to Mullen. We can take it to another level, but only if we commit. Some might say money leads to better results, but with the current results we aren't bringing in much money and our stadium isn't filling up much either. Cohen left and NIL money went up. Would fan support go up if we hired a different coach? Who knows.

State fans are pretty good about awarding a product we believe in and have hope in. Look no further than Jans. I guarantee our attendance is better this year than any year under Howland when it's all said and done. Why? Bc he coaches hard, and our guys play hard...and so far it's led to winning. Funny how that happens. So im not surprised that the crowd isn't showing up to watch a finesse offense, led by a non athletic, no contact QB, and an emotionless goofy coach with 5 plays, lose in a fashion that they could have scripted prior to the game.

[CadaverDawg]

Wait. We "accepted" Croom for one bowl in five years? We fired him for that. Croom wasn't better than Jackie, Emory, or Tyler. We fired Felker after five as well and Croom went to one more bowl than he did. There was no accepting. We have him a fair opportunity and he failed. There's nothing more he could have asked for.

Leach hasn't done that. We'll be going to our third bowl under him. He's only had one losing season so far.

And you're going to sit here and tell people that are saying we should invest more in recruiting and getting better players that WE are accepting mediocrity because you want to watch us run the ball more? Really? GTFO.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

1. You misread the Croom stuff. I said thank God we DIDNT accept it.

2. If you took my "balanced" take as "we need to run it more!"...you're either trying to misunderstand, or just aren't worth debating. It's less about running and more about not being one dimensional. If we had a 95% run team I'd tell you we need more of a pass threat. I don't give a shit how we win, as long as we win....BUT....have you ever seen a team win in the SEC that is one dimensional??? No. Why? Because SEC DC's spend their entire year trying to make you one dimensional, bc that's how they beat you. We do it for them. It's a losing strategy.

So take that as "run Morrr", if you want...but that's not my point.

And yes, you are accepting mediocrity if your reasoning for keeping Leach is "at least we aren't A&M". Well, as long as we aren't the worst, who cares, right?!

[Todd4State]

Scoring more doesn't matter when you're scoring 19 and losing by 30. I want to win, and one dimensional teams don't win in this league. That's my point. It's like a pitcher that throws 105 mph but only throws a fastball. Eventually, everyone catches up to it bc they know what's coming and how to prepare.

Bottom line is, Mullen raised our program to the level it is now. Now we need to find that guy that can take it to the next level, like from Croom to Mullen. We can take it to another level, but only if we commit. Some might say money leads to better results, but with the current results we aren't bringing in much money and our stadium isn't filling up much either. Cohen left and NIL money went up. Would fan support go up if we hired a different coach? Who knows.

State fans are pretty good about awarding a product we believe in and have hope in. Look no further than Jans. I guarantee our attendance is better this year than any year under Howland when it's all said and done. Why? Bc he coaches hard, and our guys play hard...and so far it's led to winning. Funny how that happens. So im not surprised that the crowd isn't showing up to watch a finesse offense, led by a non athletic, no contact QB, and an emotionless goofy coach with 5 plays, lose in a fashion that they could have scripted prior to the game.

The attendance dropped when Dan was still coaching. It's chicken and the egg. For us to take the next step we need support. That's more on the AD than it is the coach. A&M has the most boring team in the league. Yet I guarantee their attendance is still very good.

A lot of our fans have this warped view that well we just need a new coach to generate excitement and run this fancy entertaining offense and we'll be good. Guess what? MSU has done that before. And the results are the same won/loss wise.

Heck- I think it was Dan who said that for the program to be successful the fans have to show up. Not "I need to win so the fans show up".

It's ultimately the athletic department's job to get fans to go to the games. It's their job to pump money into recruiting so the coaches can get great players.

So let's actually pump money into recruiting and do things to get fans to go to the games. Hell half the people there are there to show off their new dress or get drunk. You think those people care what our run to pass ratio is or that we ran a counter option? Hell no.

[CadaverDawg]

Been fun. It's 2am, I'm going to bed. I'll respond to any other comments tomorrow. Thanks for the debate...was more interesting than the game tonight, that's for sure. Nothing makes me want to get my ass in Davis Wade for ETSU like knowing we will throw it 50 times and look like world beaters against a cupcake, only to be whooped on thanksgiving by our rival again as they cruise to 10 wins while we celebrate another 7 win season and a Texas bowl berth versus UConn. Can't imagine why we aren't filling the stadium and pumping in crazy NIL numbers.*

Goodnight y'all. I really enjoy the debate. I respect yalls opinions, even though I differ on mine greatly.

[Todd4State]

Your reading comprehension sucks.

1. You misread the Croom stuff. I said thank God we DIDNT accept it.

2. If you took my "balanced" take as "we need to run it more!"...you're either trying to misunderstand, or just aren't worth debating. It's less about running and more about not being one dimensional. If we had a 95% run team I'd tell you we need more of a pass threat. I don't give a shit how we win, as long as we win....BUT....have you ever seen a team win in the SEC that is one dimensional??? No. Why? Because SEC DC's spend their entire year trying to make you one dimensional, bc that's how they beat you. We do it for them. It's a losing strategy.

So take that as "run Morrr", if you want...but that's not my point.

And yes, you are accepting mediocrity if your reasoning for keeping Leach is "at least we aren't A&M". Well, as long as we aren't the worst, who cares, right?!

No again- you don't get it. No let me rephrase that- you don't like it because my solution doesn't involve getting rid of Leach.

Pumping in more money to get better players is totally the same as "well as long as we aren't the worst". Newsflash- bringing in better players gets us closer to Alabama and Georgia than it does the bottom of the league. That's logic. So if my reading comprehension sucks then your logic sucks.

[Cowbell]

Miami of Ohio is who you get when you go 5-7, not 7-5. Why exaggerate and overstate your case?

Dude we played Tulsa two years ago

[Patrick Tibbons]

"This shit" is better than what Texas A&M, Auburn, and Arkansas have right now.

What I don't want to see is us fire Leach and then say "well damn we should have given him time."

Exactly. A large portion of our fanbase lets the success of Ole Miss determine their self worth.

If Ole Miss hadn?t gone to the Sugar last year and were currently 4-6 Cadaver wouldn?t have made this thread.

[Cowbell]

Most of our fans were comfortable with Mullen (equal to Leach) and a lot of them were comfortable with Moorhead (clearly worse). I think that the Leach hatred is primarily driven by Ole Miss having a couple of good years and not anything that Leach has done himself. Why are we letting Ole Miss live in our heads and affect our own opinions so much?

Leach is in no way equal to Mullen at this point. Mullen had us atleast knocking on the door

[Cowbell]

"This shit" is better than what Texas A&M, Auburn, and Arkansas have right now.

What I don't want to see is us fire Leach and then say "well damn we should have given him time."

Anybody that thinks time is going to fix this doesn't understand the game of football on a complex level. It would take an epiphany of epiphanies for leach to realize what he needs to do to improve his scheme and make it work against good teams consistently. It ain't happening. The man hasn't changed in 25 years.

You pay a coach to do the best he can with what he has. And he could do much better.

[Todd4State]

Leach is in no way equal to Mullen at this point. Mullen had us atleast knocking on the door

Knocking on the door of what? If Leach wins the Egg Bowl and East Tennessee State he would have basically had the same season as Dan in 2010.

[Cowbell]

Knocking on the door of what? If Leach wins the Egg Bowl and East Tennessee State he would have basically had the same season as Dan in 2010.

You are really stretching Todd. Todays SEC slate isn't near what it was in 2010-2015. And leach ain't winning the egg bowl. The sec teams we have beaten are atrocious right now.

[Patrick Tibbons]

Leach is in no way equal to Mullen at this point. Mullen had us atleast knocking on the door

What door did Dan have us knocking on?
We finished higher than 4th in the West once.
Other that 2014, we were 4th or 5th in the West every year under Mullen.

[Patrick Tibbons]

You are really stretching Todd. Todays SEC slate isn't near what it was in 2010-2015. And leach ain't winning the egg bowl. The sec teams we have beaten are atrocious right now.

5 of the top 11 teams in the CFB poll are in the SEC and we play 4 of them this year.

[Cowbell]

5 of the top 11 teams in the CFB poll are in the SEC and we play 4 of them this year.
And how many of those 4 are we gonna beat? And let's talk about the records of the sec teams we beat.... how many of them are going bowling?

[Patrick Tibbons]

And how many of those 4 are we gonna beat? And let's talk about the records of the sec teams we beat.... how many of them are going bowling?

We are currently 0-3 against #1, #7, & #10 with Ole Miss left to play.

Arkansas and Auburn both have a chance at bowl eligibility. A&M does not.

However, this has nothing to do with what you originally posted where you stated the SEC isn?t what it was in 2010-2015.

[Todd4State]

You are really stretching Todd. Todays SEC slate isn't near what it was in 2010-2015. And leach ain't winning the egg bowl. The sec teams we have beaten are atrocious right now.


Knocking on the door of what? If Leach wins the Egg Bowl and East Tennessee State he would have basically had the same season as Dan in 2010.

The only stretch is Dan having us knocking on the door of anything.

FWIW- Neither MSU nor Ole Miss have a win over a team with six wins right now and if they beat us we would be their best win of the year won/loss wise.

[bulldawg28]

There was a time going back to Jackie Sherill & Mullen that a crowd and environment like tonight was a 75% chance for an upset/win. You could feel it in the air it was going to happen. With Leach there is no chance.

The crowd has gotten him every win this year but against good teams he's losing, no questions asked. We haven't won 1 sec road game this year and it's year 3! He's sucking the life out of the program and fans are stuck on what he used to be and Press conferences.

Go get on the booth Leach because that's all you're good for right now. Head Football coaching has passed you. He's literally worried about chairs for WR's. Dude this isn't 8th grade football! The guy is terrible and killing the program and enthusiasm towards it.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

We're going to have to actually commit to recruiting at a much higher level than we are. Period. MSU as an AD has never done that. That's the biggest reason why we are stuck at 6-8 wins.

The problem is MSU fans and the AD have always tried to "do more with less" by bringing in some football guru to outscheme the SEC with lesser talented players and that is only going to get us so far.

I think it's because pre NIL we always ended up on probation and MSU always heavily penalized itself as a reaction. This discouraged our boosters from cheating or getting organized like we could and should have. It's also the biggest reason we got behind in NIL with Cohen not having a clue what he was doing as reason 1B.

I think that instead of blowing everything up as a program every few years let's actually invest in recruiting and see what we can build. We recruit reasonably well in other sports there is no reason why we can't in football.
^^^^This^^^^ is probably the best solution. Plus we are not going to have an AD until Probably January.

[basedog]

Amazing it is a debate between Leach vs Mullen. Why, DM is gone and want be back, Leach is our HC, nothing special to see, we have regressed badly this year. Lack of talent at the skill positioning is on Leach and staff. I for one think we could do better, we need some fire, gotta like our DC, young and aggressive, his guys play hard and he plays a lot of guys.

[msstate7]

Man some of you are so brain dead it's appalling.

Q is going down with the ship. Some of us can't find or won't look for the seat belt release on a sinking ship. I went down with the USS Howland

[DownwardDawg]

I thought we were talking about if our recruiting was significantly better under specific coaches. Leach isn't a big time
Recruiter either...so I thought you meant using the money to help us recruit. It won't increase the amount Leach puts into it, just like it wouldn't Mullen. But the money would help.

And since Mullen won 10 games and had a balanced attack with stout defenses....and Leach isn't even our best coach on the field each Saturday....I would definitely say Mullen could win much bigger than Leach if each had a top 15-20 class each year. But that's just me and I'm aware it can't be proven.

Mullen was sooooo close to being that special coach for MSU. He showed what State is capable of if he had given more effort. Better recruiting and play calling and not job searching and he would have played in the SEC championship game a couple of times.

[Saltydog]

1. Be happy with 6-6/7-5 and continuing the bowl streak every year against someone like Miami of Ohio in the weed eater bowl. Meanwhile we continue to battle Vandy as the worst attended SEC football program, and overall enthusiasm continues to dwindle.

I know it sounds spoiled to complain about 7-5, but it is what it is. 7-5 has gotten stale. I just want us to have hope going in to big games. I can take 7-5 if we at least have a chance against the big boys. With Leach, we don't...and we won't. Argue all you want, but you know it's true.

2. Get rid of Leach/Encourage him to retire with pay....and take a chance on hiring someone that could potentially give us hope against the big boys.

I know it's risky. And it could result in Jimbo-like results. But we aren't beating LSU, Bama, Georgia, Tennessee, or Ole Miss again under Leach. Not with their current coaches. So do you risk losing the Belk bowl for a long shot chance at the Sugar?


I totally get the fear many have of going with a risky hire and potentially losing our bowl streak. I know we're poor State and it could be much worse. But how much NIL money will come in if we continue showing no ability to compete with the better teams? What is the advantage of staying at a pretty much guaranteed 6-6/7-5/8-4? These days damn near everyone goes bowling. Does anyone remember who won the Texas Bowl the last few years? Me neither.

We have to decide if we're wanting to try to compete, or if we're ok with being a 6-6 type program going forward. If you think we're going to increase our money as a 6-6/7-5 program...we're not. And yes, Ole Miss is committed and running circles around us. So are we going to get serious about football, or not? Are you good with 7-5 and a bowl while others are pumping in money to compete? You cool with pushing harder at hoops and baseball and sucking at football?

Those are the questions State fans and admin must answer. Are we all in on the #1 money maker sport, or are we too conservative (scared) to take a chance on being better? Maybe we can, maybe we can't...but as my grandpa said, "can't never could". I think we can do better. There's no way Ole Miss can consistently be top 15 taking Bama to the wire, and we have to settle for 30 point ass whippings against them. The Grove ain't that special...Oxford ain't that great....it's a commitment. A commitment we don't have. We can, we should...we don't. We would rather feel sorry for ourselves. Ole Miss is elitist, and pricks...but you can't deny their confidence, and the expectations they have. We are chicken shits with no confidence we can step up and get it done. So we settle. We settle for mediocre. We settle for a little better than average. We settle for "upper half of the league". "It's the SEC West" after all. "These teams have more money than us". "These teams have towns with more to offer". Bunch of damn excuses if you ask me.

Commit, 100%...or commit to not committing so those that want to win at a high level can commit their time and money and weekends to something or somebody that wants to succeed.

We've been doing this for how many decades now? If we haven't been able to compete up until now we're screwed in the NIL era. The rich will get richer, meanwhile in Starkville.

[DownwardDawg]

There was a time going back to Jackie Sherill & Mullen that a crowd and environment like tonight was a 75% chance for an upset/win. You could feel it in the air it was going to happen. With Leach there is no chance.

The crowd has gotten him every win this year but against good teams he's losing, no questions asked. We haven't won 1 sec road game this year and it's year 3! He's sucking the life out of the program and fans are stuck on what he used to be and Press conferences.

Go get on the booth Leach because that's all you're good for right now. Head Football coaching has passed you. He's literally worried about chairs for WR's. Dude this isn't 8th grade football! The guy is terrible and killing the program and enthusiasm towards it.

100%!!!!! When JWS was our coach, I expected to win every time I walked in that stadium or watched on tv. Mullen had some of that feel also. Today, you already know the outcome before the game starts. No chance of winning the big games.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Some rose colored glasses looking back at Mullen.

His recruiting was lazy and it gave us 0 chance to compete at a high level. His offense was only balanced under Dak, and he failed to turn that success into real QB talent (Fitz was a great runner but an awful QB overall). He could not keep a DC and the turnover capped our defensive potential. He had the WORST WR room in the SEC most years. He kept got awful assistants and we called them the "Country Club". That also capped our potential. He clammed up in big games, capping our potential.

Ultimately, Dan averaged like 7 wins a year. He had 1 good season and we went 10-3, loosing handily to Bama.

I do not understand how so many here are infatuated with him. He did not win big, and his recruiting/poor assistants/high DC turnover/poor skill position players/poor big game playcalling meant we had no chance to ACTUALLY win the West. But so many here make excuses like "he played a harder schedule!" even when it's pointed out we play 4 top 11 teams this year.

[ImissCityBagel]

1. Leach needs to make some adaptations like anyone else still using the air raid.
2. We need a mobile QB. Right now, it feels like everything has to be perfect every play or Will gets sacked, he has to last minute dink and dunk, or throw it away. There's nothing to help a broken play. Everytime I see other SEC qbs run for 12 yards on a 3rd down it makes me sad.
3. We desperately need WRs that can catch the ball in big games. Last year's egg bowl, Bama, last night had too many crucial drops. If we can't catch the ball in big games, it kind of defeats the purpose of the air raid.

[msstate7]

Some rose colored glasses looking back at Mullen.

His recruiting was lazy and it gave us 0 chance to compete at a high level. His offense was only balanced under Dak, and he failed to turn that success into real QB talent (Fitz was a great runner but an awful QB overall). He could not keep a DC and the turnover capped our defensive potential. He had the WORST WR room in the SEC most years. He kept got awful assistants and we called them the "Country Club". That also capped our potential. He clammed up in big games, capping our potential.

Ultimately, Dan averaged like 7 wins a year. He had 1 good season and we went 10-3, loosing handily to Bama.

I do not understand how so many here are infatuated with him. He did not win big, and his recruiting/poor assistants/high DC turnover/poor skill position players/poor big game playcalling meant we had no chance to ACTUALLY win the West. But so many here make excuses like "he played a harder schedule!" even when it's pointed out we play 4 top 11 teams this year.

Fine.

Mullen 69-46 (.600)
In sec 33-39 (.458)

Leach 17-17 (.500)
In sec 10-15 (.400)

If mullen wasn't good, leach really sucks

[defiantdog]

I get it. Being mediocre is boring, but we are honestly a good qb and wr away from being a really good team. Look at Bama for example, they are loaded with 5 stars..... but are beatable because they don't have any receivers that can take over a game like years past.

Will's a good kid..... but he's not going to win the big games. Rara's a decent receiver..... but he isn't going to demand any double teams.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Fine.

Mullen 69-46 (.600)
In sec 33-39 (.458)

Leach 17-17 (.500)
In sec 10-15 (.400)

If mullen wasn't good, leach really sucks

Correct! Leach has been a disappointment. 2020 was a pass because he had to clean up the cancer JoMo left. 2021 we were statistically the most unlucky team in CFB and if we had a FG kicker nobody wold have an issue. This season has been a massive disappointment because the offense has not taken the step forward it needed to. If THIS is the Leach offense, then Leach needs to go because this is not good enough.

[defiantdog]

Fine.

Mullen 69-46 (.600)
In sec 33-39 (.458)

Leach 17-17 (.500)
In sec 10-15 (.400)

If mullen wasn't good, leach really sucks
I wonder what our 3rd quarter stats are this year..... because thats when we have lost each game.

[msugolf]

Some rose colored glasses looking back at Mullen.

His recruiting was lazy and it gave us 0 chance to compete at a high level. His offense was only balanced under Dak, and he failed to turn that success into real QB talent (Fitz was a great runner but an awful QB overall). He could not keep a DC and the turnover capped our defensive potential. He had the WORST WR room in the SEC most years. He kept got awful assistants and we called them the "Country Club". That also capped our potential. He clammed up in big games, capping our potential.

Ultimately, Dan averaged like 7 wins a year. He had 1 good season and we went 10-3, loosing handily to Bama.

I do not understand how so many here are infatuated with him. He did not win big, and his recruiting/poor assistants/high DC turnover/poor skill position players/poor big game playcalling meant we had no chance to ACTUALLY win the West. But so many here make excuses like "he played a harder schedule!" even when it's pointed out we play 4 top 11 teams this year.

First of all, it was 19-13 Bama in the 4th quarter in 2014. We outgained them 428-335 in total yards, had 26 first downs to their 17 but we had 3 turnovers and one of Dak's worst games. If that is "losing handily" (not to be confused with "loosing handily") then I'd like to hear what you call Leach's performances against the elites where the stat sheet is completely lopsided the other way and he's scored 1 td in 12 quarters against Bama, which was a garbage td at that.

Second of all, why is it if someone says something negative about Leach people automatically throw you into a Mullen argument. I don't want to go back to that offense or system either but at least his teams played physical

[memsu06]

I have found a coach for y'all. Availability coming this season.

Has won a national championship.

Known for his extensive offense.

Known for developing QBs.

Recruited the #1 class in the nation.

Jimbo Fisher!!

[PikeDawg15]

^^^^This^^^^ is probably the best solution. Plus we are not going to have an AD until Probably January.

Spending 70 million dollars on renovating a baseball stadium that didn?t need renovating instead of investing that in recruiting and other football related things. Is the proof that we don?t care enough about football.

But but the left field lounge!!!

[Patrick Tibbons]

First of all, it was 19-13 Bama in the 4th quarter in 2014. We outgained them 428-335 in total yards, had 26 first downs to their 17 but we had 3 turnovers and one of Dak's worst games. If that is "losing handily" (not to be confused with "loosing handily") then I'd like to hear what you call Leach's performances against the elites where the stat sheet is completely lopsided the other way and he's scored 1 td in 12 quarters against Bama, which was a garbage td at that.

Second of all, why is it if someone says something negative about Leach people automatically throw you into a Mullen argument. I don't want to go back to that offense or system either but at least his teams played physical

The premise of his post was correct besides losing handily to Bama. However, we did lose handily to Ole Miss that year so maybe he got confused.

To answer your second point, the guy who started this thread to bash Leach, introduced Mullen into this thread, not a Leach supporter.

[Homedawg]

That's quite an assumption given that Dan was horrible at recruiting and worse at it than Leach.

We don't have to be top 10 to make a jump. We should shoot for top 20.

Been agreeing w a lot you have said, but, Dan wasn't worse at recruiting than CML. Leach hates it just as much. Maybe more. I'll save my stories til after he's gone. But it's terrible.

[Homedawg]

Spending 70 million dollars on renovating a baseball stadium that didn?t need renovating instead of investing that in recruiting and other football related things. Is the proof that we don?t care enough about football.

But but the left field lounge!!!

And we will never be a great football program. Just what it is. To say would shouldn't have built the new dude is just stupid.

[Saltydog]

You don't spend your way outta debt. We could've put that money into football and we'd still be exactly where we are now. It is what it is and it's not going to change. The sooner some of you relegate to that fact the happier, healthier life you can live.

[PikeDawg15]

And we will never be a great football program. Just what it is. To say would shouldn't have built the new dude is just stupid.

This way of thinking is holding us back.

[PikeDawg15]

You don't spend your way outta debt. We could've put that money into football and we'd still be exactly where we are now. It is what it is and it's not going to change. The sooner some of you relegate to that fact the happier, healthier life you can live.

Hey Larry Templeton I found ya!

[Quaoarsking]

I fundamentally reject the idea that Leach or Mullen are mediocre or that 7-5 is the best the program can ever do. If we are going to take the next step and become an 8-4 program, we need an above average coach, and I am skeptical that the next coach would be any better.

We are a "7-5 program" but none of the other have nots in the SEC are, not consistently yet. Ole Miss, Arkansas, Kentucky, etc., haven't had the consistency over 13 years that Mullen built and Leach maintained.

[Goldendawg]

The difference is Leach has a good track record with patience.

Statistically our offense has been as good or better than most of Dan's. And that's with a p**** playing QB. Georgia was allowing like 10 PPG coming into tonight. We scored 13.

I want to see what Leach can do with a different QB and 4-5 classes of receivers.

You can say he isn't changing but then we have Chris Parson as a QB recruit.

Most very good WR's want to play in an exciting O that stretches the field now and then. We do not offer anything close to this at this time. Most good RB's like to run the ball a lot. Both these are issues at present and probably hurt recruiting at both positions.

[Quaoarsking]

Most very good WR's want to play in an exciting O that stretches the field now and then. We do not offer anything close to this at this time. Most good RB's like to run the ball a lot. Both these are issues at present and probably hurt recruiting at both positions.

We probably would if we had an NFL-type receiver like Michael Crabtree though.

[Ranchdawg]

You don't spend your way outta debt. We could've put that money into football and we'd still be exactly where we are now. It is what it is and it's not going to change. The sooner some of you relegate to that fact the happier, healthier life you can live.

I totally disagree! Ole Miss is a example I’ll use because they are in our state and their coach was hired at aprox same time. They are at least competitive with the have’s of our conference see yesterday’s game vs Bama. Did our team look that competitive against Bama. NO ole miss has used the transfer portal used NIL have coaches that actually coach not afraid to change QBs not afraid of the team they are playing. According to Leech some of our players were afraid of Bama when we played them.

Why play the game with mind set of we’ll always be who we are. That rationale is exactly why we are where we are. Why not demand excellence. Why not even try to better ourselves. What is the problem with demanding coaches do what they are paid a bunch of money to do is win football games and win the conference and or championships.

Think if we had this mind set in baseball. We would have never won a Natty. Never

This same attitude prevails in our whole state. And maybe that’s why we are last in just about everything.

[DownwardDawg]

I have found a coach for y'all. Availability coming this season.

Has won a national championship.

Known for his extensive offense.

Known for developing QBs.

Recruited the #1 class in the nation.

Jimbo Fisher!!

That's a great idea Mr Cohen!! He's also known as the worst coach in the SEC! He'd fit right in!

[Quaoarsking]

If Ole Miss can keep Kiffin and maintain this new elevated level for the next decade, then good for him. However, I suspect that they'll be back to "less than a 7-5 program" next year without Kiffin and we'll win more games during the Mullen-Leach Era than they do over the same time frame.

I could be wrong, but I bet I won't be.

[CadaverDawg]

Anybody that thinks time is going to fix this doesn't understand the game of football on a complex level. It would take an epiphany of epiphanies for leach to realize what he needs to do to improve his scheme and make it work against good teams consistently. It ain't happening. The man hasn't changed in 25 years.

You pay a coach to do the best he can with what he has. And he could do much better.

Bingo

[Really Clark?]

I fundamentally reject the idea that Leach or Mullen are mediocre or that 7-5 is the best the program can ever do. If we are going to take the next step and become an 8-4 program, we need an above average coach, and I am skeptical that the next coach would be any better.

We are a "7-5 program" but none of the other have nots in the SEC are, not consistently yet. Ole Miss, Arkansas, Kentucky, etc., haven't had the consistency over 13 years that Mullen built and Leach maintained.

Then under that criteria Mullen was pretty close for you then, his first 4 years he averaged 7.25 wins a season building the program, then averaged 8 wins over his next 5 years. (8.2 if you include the 2017 bowl game he didn't coach).

[CadaverDawg]

Fine.

Mullen 69-46 (.600)
In sec 33-39 (.458)

Leach 17-17 (.500)
In sec 10-15 (.400)

If mullen wasn't good, leach really sucks

Yep

[Goldendawg]

Mullen was sooooo close to being that special coach for MSU. He showed what State is capable of if he had given more effort. Better recruiting and play calling and not job searching and he would have played in the SEC championship game a couple of times.

Tell me again what his record was against Top 25 teams. We never finished strong after his annual loss to bama, job search, and not having team ready for OM in his last few years. His failure at UF was predicted here by many including the very time frame it would take.

[DownwardDawg]

Tell me again what his record was against Top 25 teams. We never finished strong after his annual loss to bama, job search, and not having team ready for OM in his last few years. His failure at UF was predicted here by many including the very time frame it would take.

Read my post again. You just agreed with my post. And I was one of the first posters on this board to predict his failure at Florida. He was lazy by that time and wouldn't recruit. But if you read my post you would see I pointed that out.

[CadaverDawg]

We probably would if we had an NFL-type receiver like Michael Crabtree though.

So we just need an NFL star? Oh, well that seems like a good recruiting pitch..."come to State! We'll have a fun offense and stretch the field a bit more if you or one of the other guys we're bringing in is a future NFL Pro Bowler.

This is the system you're defending to your death? Lord have mercy

[CadaverDawg]

If Ole Miss can keep Kiffin and maintain this new elevated level for the next decade, then good for him. However, I suspect that they'll be back to "less than a 7-5 program" next year without Kiffin and we'll win more games during the Mullen-Leach Era than they do over the same time frame.

I could be wrong, but I bet I won't be.

So our program sucks so bad that we're back to hoping other teams drop back to our level since we're incapable of rising up to theirs? Do you even hear yourself right now? We deserve better than this mentality. We are in the best conference in football. Are we going to have the money A&M or anyone else has? Maybe not. But we still have the capability to maintain a Top 15-25 program....but guess where we aren't? The Top 25.

Maybe if we beat the team Vandy beat yesterday we'd be closer to the top 25. Disgusting

[CadaverDawg]

The only stretch is Dan having us knocking on the door of anything.

FWIW- Neither MSU nor Ole Miss have a win over a team with six wins right now and if they beat us we would be their best win of the year won/loss wise.

Are you REALLY trying to compare our football season to theirs at this point???! My God you and Quars have lost it. Why don't you dedicate your fandom to Leach instead of State. Do you even watch the damn games? How anybody on Earth could watch the way we performed at home against Georgia yesterday and compare it at all with what Ole Miss did against Bama....I just can't.

Unfortunately I've found my answer in this thread. I was hoping more people would rather risk losing to try and take a gamble on taking a step forward....but the majority have accepted that we are poor MSU that can't compete, so we should be thrilled with a boring ass 7-5 where we beat absolutely nobody, and don't even compete with the good teams in our league. Oh, and Kentucky. What a damn joke. What a loser mentality a large portion of our fan base has. Call me unrealistic, but as a competitor I'd rather go 0-12 every year going forward trying to achieve that ultimate goal of a Championship, than to accept just being better than the worst teams in the league and willfully not make any attempts to get better.

It's that mentality that will keep people like me from investing more in NIL going forward. Why should I invest in something that our administration and fan base majority isnt serious about? I can do more with my money and my Fall Saturdays

[Quaoarsking]

Then under that criteria Mullen was pretty close for you then, his first 4 years he averaged 7.25 wins a season building the program, then averaged 8 wins over his next 5 years. (8.2 if you include the 2017 bowl game he didn't coach).

Mullen was 7.1 - 4.9 in regular seasons. I don't really count bowls for or against a coach either way because you never know who you're going to draw.

It should be pointed out that Mullen only had to play a P5 non-conf twice in his career here and he lost both of them (2009 Georgia Tech and 2013 Oklahoma State) so even that comparison doesn't quite line up.

[Quaoarsking]

So our program sucks so bad that we're back to hoping other teams drop back to our level since we're incapable of rising up to theirs? Do you even hear yourself right now? We deserve better than this mentality. We are in the best conference in football. Are we going to have the money A&M or anyone else has? Maybe not. But we still have the capability to maintain a Top 15-25 program....but guess where we aren't? The Top 25.

Maybe if we beat the team Vandy beat yesterday we'd be closer to the top 25. Disgusting

I think you're putting some pretty intense strawman onto what I'm saying. I think we have been a better program than Ole Miss and Tennessee over the last 14 seasons (not debatable really), and that just because they've been good the last 2 years isn't enough to change that.

[EdwardDrayton]

The difference is Leach has a good track record with patience.

Statistically our offense has been as good or better than most of Dan's. And that's with a p**** playing QB. Georgia was allowing like 10 PPG coming into tonight. We scored 13.

I want to see what Leach can do with a different QB and 4-5 classes of receivers.

You can say he isn't changing but then we have Chris Parson as a QB recruit.

Yes, not ready to jettison Leach; let?s give him a chance to get a different QB. And apparently it will have to be somebody from the portal. We only can assume that the rest of the QB room is not even at the level of our starter. But Leach is on thin ice; he was either wrong about WR or he has not been able to recruit a bona fide QB. If it?s the latter, he has to go.

[CadaverDawg]

Mullen was 7.1 - 4.9 in regular seasons. I don't really count bowls for or against a coach either way because you never know who you're going to draw.

It should be pointed out that Mullen only had to play a P5 non-conf twice in his career here and he lost both of them (2009 Georgia Tech and 2013 Oklahoma State) so even that comparison doesn't quite line up.

Yeah football at State is way more fun and enthusiastic under Leach than Mullen.*

This isn't about Mullen VS Leach though. I brought Dan up bc I was referring to better recruiting not helping a finesse team like Leach's as much as it would a physical team like Mullen's. This Mullen takeover of the thread seems like a way to derail the original debate of whether you're satisfied with 6-6/7-5 every year with no chance of competing for the West...or if you're willing to gamble on being better and possibly competing for the West but risking losing that auto bowl every year?

Mullen has nothing to do with this other than being more balanced, and getting us to this floor we now sit at. Leach has not built on it, and hasn't even done as good as Moorhead yet.

[CadaverDawg]

I think you're putting some pretty intense strawman onto what I'm saying. I think we have been a better program than Ole Miss and Tennessee over the last 14 seasons (not debatable really), and that just because they've been good the last 2 years isn't enough to change that.

No I totally understand what you're saying. Tennessee sucked for many years, and Ole Miss was trash under Luke. And yet both have easily springboarded past ol 6-6/7-5 MSU pretty quickly. And I would definitely trade the Belk bowl and Music City bowls we got to experience while they were down, to be competing for the SEC like they are currently. You're actually doing a great job of proving my point. They are committed and didn't accept being mediocre or worse...and now they have 2 of the best 3-4 coaches in AMERICA. Meanwhile we're piddling along with Leach getting whipped by everyone with a pulse and taking a coachless Auburn to overtime on our home field. You totally made my point, thank you

[Quaoarsking]

Yeah football at State is way more fun and enthusiastic under Leach than Mullen.*

This isn't about Mullen VS Leach though. I brought Dan up bc I was referring to better recruiting not helping a finesse team like Leach's as much as it would a physical team like Mullen's. This Mullen takeover of the thread seems like a way to derail the original debate of whether you're satisfied with 6-6/7-5 every year with no chance of competing for the West...or if you're willing to gamble on being better and possibly competing for the West but risking losing that auto bowl every year?

Mullen has nothing to do with this other than being more balanced, and getting us to this floor we now sit at. Leach has not built on it, and hasn't even done as good as Moorhead yet.

I don't care if we are "balanced" or not, "physical" or not (those are just buzzwords anyway without objective definitions). All that matters is winning, so yes, Leach ≈ Mullen right now. And I liked Mullen like most people here (although to be fair, a lot of people didn't like him while he was here and have just retroactively changed to say they did), so therefore I also like Leach.

[Really Clark?]

Mullen was 7.1 - 4.9 in regular seasons. I don't really count bowls for or against a coach either way because you never know who you're going to draw.

It should be pointed out that Mullen only had to play a P5 non-conf twice in his career here and he lost both of them (2009 Georgia Tech and 2013 Oklahoma State) so even that comparison doesn't quite line up.

Well don't care what you count, the record is the record and it's always recorded that way. Historically written down that way so you have to include the total numbers. Also, when you add bowl games, the number of P5 teams go up as well. It all counts.

You have to look at a tenure breakdown to see the trends. It's pretty obvious that the last 5 years were nearly a game better on avg than the first 4 years. That's an upward trend.

[CadaverDawg]

Yes, not ready to jettison Leach; let?s give him a chance to get a different QB. And apparently it will have to be somebody from the portal. We only can assume that the rest of the QB room is not even at the level of our starter. But Leach is on thin ice; he was either wrong about WR or he has not been able to recruit a bona fide QB. If it?s the latter, he has to go.

So what I'm reading from a culmination of posts is, if we can just get Josh Allen at QB and Michael Crabtree and Wes Welker at WR, maybe then we can see what Leach can do and whether or not he's the guy. Seems reasonable.

Why can we spend 70 million on a baseball stadium but can't offer a good damn coach $6 million a year to give us a shot at the West?

[Goldendawg]

Will at QB in this "Offense" and Holloway up the middle both yield similar results against SEC defenses with a pulse.

[Quaoarsking]

Why can we spend 70 million on a baseball stadium but can't offer a good damn coach $6 million a year to give us a shot at the West?

Like I said, if, like, Mike Gundy will agree to become our next coach, then by all means fire Leach.

But ... would our fans be any happier with him? Is there an amount we can give him to make him come here? And would he really be better than the 7-5 Mullen/Leach standard?

[CadaverDawg]

I don't care if we are "balanced" or not, "physical" or not (those are just buzzwords anyway without objective definitions). All that matters is winning, so yes, Leach ≈ Mullen right now. And I liked Mullen like most people here (although to be fair, a lot of people didn't like him while he was here and have just retroactively changed to say they did), so therefore I also like Leach.

You always take the shit that isn't the point of a post and make your response to that instead of the point. Weird. I guess it's because you know I made a great point but can't admit it.

All I care about is winning too...but you aren't winning this league with a 90% pass rate. Just aren't.

So when Todd brought up "just needing to recruit better", I said no, maybe if Dan was still here...but recruiting better doesn't change the fact that we will still throw it 90% of the time, so we will still never succeed at a high level. Dan was simply an example of a coach that could benefit more from better recruiting bc he played a physical style that required more man vs man heads up strength. Leach's finesse offense doesn't require that, which is why he spits out the same results with WSU players as he does with MSU players.

Y'all are getting too hung up on the Dan comments. Probably on purpose, bc comparing Leach to Dan paints a much better picture (although still a worse one) than comparing him to his current peers and his current efforts

[CadaverDawg]

Like I said, if, like, Mike Gundy will agree to become our next coach, then by all means fire Leach.

But ... would our fans be any happier with him? Is there an amount we can give him to make him come here? And would he really be better than the 7-5 Mullen/Leach standard?

Who knows? If he wins they will. If he takes us to another level they will. And even if he hits status quo for Leach, you will still gobble him up, so why the F do you care? If he will still bring us a minimum 6-6/7-5 but possibly gives us a prayer at more, what's the reason Not to? If you would quit obsessing over Leach and us being a program that can't do better than mediocre, you'd see that your posts are actually agreeing with me.

[Quaoarsking]

You always take the shit that isn't the point of a post and make your response to that instead of the point. Weird. I guess it's because you know I made a great point but can't admit it.

All I care about is winning too...but you aren't winning this league with a 90% pass rate. Just aren't.

So when Todd brought up "just needing to recruit better", I said no, maybe if Dan was still here...but recruiting better doesn't change the fact that we will still throw it 90% of the time, so we will still never succeed at a high level. Dan was simply an example of a coach that could benefit more from better recruiting bc he played a physical style that required more man vs man heads up strength. Leach's finesse offense doesn't require that, which is why he spits out the same results with WSU players as he does with MSU players.

Y'all are getting too hung up on the Dan comments. Probably on purpose, bc comparing Leach to Dan paints a much better picture (although still a worse one) than comparing him to his current peers and his current efforts

I brought up Mullen on my own because he is a good comparison to Leach and I like both of them, not because of anything you said.

[Quaoarsking]

Who knows? If he wins they will. If he takes us to another level they will. And even if he hits status quo for Leach, you will still gobble him up, so why the F do you care? If he will still bring us a minimum 6-6/7-5 but possibly gives us a prayer at more, what's the reason Not to? If you would quit obsessing over Leach and us being a program that can't do better than mediocre, you'd see that your posts are actually agreeing with me.

Yes, I think we agree that if Mike Gundy will take our job, we can fire Leach this month. But it would take someone on that level (a level that Leach was generally considered to be on before he came here, by the way) for it to even be a plausibly good idea. Playing mid-major roulette to hope for someone better than Mullen and Leach is not likely to pay off.

[CadaverDawg]

I brought up Mullen on my own because he is a good comparison to Leach and I like both of them, not because of anything you said.

Except he's not a good comparison. Mullen built us from Croom, to #1, and to where we now consider the "status quo" of a 7-5 program. Leach has built us into...nothing. He's actually taken a step back from Dan. Hasn't even matched JoMo's best. So no, Dan is not a good comparison for Leach.

[RezDog7]

I thought we were talking about if our recruiting was significantly better under specific coaches. Leach isn't a big time
Recruiter either...so I thought you meant using the money to help us recruit. It won't increase the amount Leach puts into it, just like it wouldn't Mullen. But the money would help.

And since Mullen won 10 games and had a balanced attack with stout defenses....and Leach isn't even our best coach on the field each Saturday....I would definitely say Mullen could win much bigger than Leach if each had a top 15-20 class each year. But that's just me and I'm aware it can't be proven.

I mean, Mullen is available if you want him back so bad. I can't wait to run the QB up the middle on 3rd and 8. "Spread the fun"

Maybe one day y'all will realize msu is just a mediocre program at best.

[CadaverDawg]

Yes, I think we agree that if Mike Gundy will take our job, we can fire Leach this month. But it would take someone on that level (a level that Leach was generally considered to be on before he came here, by the way) for it to even be a plausibly good idea. Playing mid-major roulette to hope for someone better than Mullen and Leach is not likely to pay off.

I never compared Leach to Gundy. And I'm not saying Gundy is the answer. I don't like Gundy actually and think he wouldn't be a good fit. Better than Leach, absolutely. I was just using your Gundy response to say if you think we are going to be 6-6/7-5 regardless, why not hire someone that will keep us there at minimum but gives us a shot at more? Leach won't do that. And if you have been watching us play under him you know that already

[Quaoarsking]

I never compared Leach to Gundy. And I'm not saying Gundy is the answer. I don't like Gundy actually and think he wouldn't be a good fit. Better than Leach, absolutely. I was just using your Gundy response to say if you think we are going to be 6-6/7-5 regardless, why not hire someone that will keep us there at minimum but gives us a shot at more? Leach won't do that. And if you have been watching us play under him you know that already

Gundy is the only coach I think of that I think has a decent chance of being an upgrade to Leach that we can also maybe realistically hire. If you can come up with another, slot him in there. But it's not going to be some coordinator or G5 coach.

[Quaoarsking]

Except he's not a good comparison. Mullen built us from Croom, to #1, and to where we now consider the "status quo" of a 7-5 program. Leach has built us into...nothing. He's actually taken a step back from Dan. Hasn't even matched JoMo's best. So no, Dan is not a good comparison for Leach.

If Leach gets 9 years here (and I think he will), I'm confident that he'll have a year that compares well to 2014.

But to say that Leach isn't better than JoMo is pretty silly. JoMo lost about 6 games he had no business losing and would not have made another bowl game if Cohen/Keenum hadn't had the courage to fire him after just 2 years.

[CadaverDawg]

I mean, Mullen is available if you want him back so bad. I can't wait to run the QB up the middle on 3rd and 8. "Spread the fun"

Maybe one day y'all will realize msu is just a mediocre program at best.

I'm literally saying in that post that Mullen was just used as an example. Good lord you people can't read.

But at least you answered the original question, and admit to thinking we can't ever compete. Looks to be the consensus around here. Maybe me and the other guys that think we can take another step should just stop caring and stop investing....clearly the majority don't think we can ever compete anyway, so why waste the money and time. Maybe hire a bargain bin coach and just see how good a million a year can get us. Maybe we'll stumble in to a Freeze every 20 years or so. Spend that money on different sports, or whatever. Didn't realize our fan base had such a loser mentality. Maybe I expected too much.

[CadaverDawg]

If Leach gets 9 years here (and I think he will), I'm confident that he'll have a year that compares well to 2014.

But to say that Leach isn't better than JoMo is pretty silly. JoMo lost about 6 games he had no business losing and would not have made another bowl game if Cohen/Keenum hadn't had the courage to fire him after just 2 years.

I didn't say Leach wasn't better than JoMo. Good try though. His record hasn't been as good as JoMo's best, but a jar of mayonnaise is better than JoMo. Don't twist my words

[Quaoarsking]

I'm literally saying in that post that Mullen was just used as an example. Good lord you people can't read.

But at least you answered the original question, and admit to thinking we can't ever compete. Looks to be the consensus around here. Maybe me and the other guys that think we can take another step should just stop caring and stop investing....clearly the majority don't think we can ever compete anyway, so why waste the money and time. Maybe hire a bargain bin coach and just see how good a million a year can get us. Maybe we'll stumble in to a Freeze every 20 years or so. Spend that money on different sports, or whatever. Didn't realize our fan base had such a loser mentality. Maybe I expected too much.

I don't know how "Our program is the 8th best in the SEC over the last decade with the 13th best budget" and "13 straight bowls with no down years is pretty cool, especially when most of the elites in the conference can't say that" are a loser mentality.

I want us to win the CFP in my lifetime. I think establishing ourselves as a program that always goes to bowls and competes to be ranked is more likely to lay the foundation to get there than constantly changing coaches and mixing up some losing records is. Maybe I'm wrong, but our program is perceived a lot better nowadays than we were in January 2009.

[bulldawg28]

I mean, Mullen is available if you want him back so bad. I can't wait to run the QB up the middle on 3rd and 8. "Spread the fun"

Maybe one day y'all will realize msu is just a mediocre program at best.

I'd hire Mullen today when the transfer portal to assist him. He wouldn't have to recruit near as hard.

[CadaverDawg]

I don't know how "Our program is the 8th best in the SEC over the last decade with the 13th best budget" and "13 straight bowls with no down years is pretty cool, especially when most of the elites in the conference can't say that" are a loser mentality.

I want us to win the CFP in my lifetime. I think establishing ourselves as a program that always goes to bowls and competes to be ranked is more likely to lay the foundation to get there than constantly changing coaches and mixing up some losing records is. Maybe I'm wrong, but our program is perceived a lot better nowadays than we were in January 2009.

Trust me, your mentality has nothing to do with our bowl streak. Your mentality is how we never improve from where we are. Being content gets you left behind in this league. We are a worse program now than we were when Mullen left.

[Quaoarsking]

Trust me, your mentality has nothing to do with our bowl streak. Your mentality is how we never improve. Being content gets you left behind in this league. We are a worse program now than we were when Mullen left.

I don't think that is the national perception of our program, nor is that borne out by statistics. For example, we are still 8th in the FPI in the SEC since Mullen left (ahead of Ole Miss and Tennessee), just like we were in the second half of his run here.

[sandjunky]

Goodbye Leach! I thought you could be a difference maker. everyone loves your wit, however, no one fears you or your offense, especially with an unathletic qb leading it in the SEC

[TrapGame]

You guys that want Mullen back are just nuts.

I want better than that if we move on from Leach.

Good grief.

[Todd4State]

So we just need an NFL star? Oh, well that seems like a good recruiting pitch..."come to State! We'll have a fun offense and stretch the field a bit more if you or one of the other guys we're bringing in is a future NFL Pro Bowler.

This is the system you're defending to your death? Lord have mercy

And you're telling others that WE have the loser mentality? Wow.

[Turfdawg67]

Leach is in no way equal to Mullen at this point. Mullen had us atleast knocking on the door


Fine.

Mullen 69-46 (.600)
In sec 33-39 (.458)

Leach 17-17 (.500)
In sec 10-15 (.400)

If mullen wasn't good, leach really sucks

LOL the revisionism is truly amazing:

Let's looks at the first 3 years-

Mullen: 21-17 - 9-15
Leach (projected): 18-18 - 10-16
(Throw in a New Mexico, Tulane & Alabama A&M and take out UGA, Vandy for 2020 Covid and here are your records)

Mullen: 21-17 - 9-15
Leach- 21-18 - 9-15

But most on this board would welcome back that underachieving douche because he had a couple smoke and mirrors seasons and a guy named Dak.

[Todd4State]

You are really stretching Todd. Todays SEC slate isn't near what it was in 2010-2015. And leach ain't winning the egg bowl. The sec teams we have beaten are atrocious right now.


Are you REALLY trying to compare our football season to theirs at this point???! My God you and Quars have lost it. Why don't you dedicate your fandom to Leach instead of State. Do you even watch the damn games? How anybody on Earth could watch the way we performed at home against Georgia yesterday and compare it at all with what Ole Miss did against Bama....I just can't.

Unfortunately I've found my answer in this thread. I was hoping more people would rather risk losing to try and take a gamble on taking a step forward....but the majority have accepted that we are poor MSU that can't compete, so we should be thrilled with a boring ass 7-5 where we beat absolutely nobody, and don't even compete with the good teams in our league. Oh, and Kentucky. What a damn joke. What a loser mentality a large portion of our fan base has. Call me unrealistic, but as a competitor I'd rather go 0-12 every year going forward trying to achieve that ultimate goal of a Championship, than to accept just being better than the worst teams in the league and willfully not make any attempts to get better.

It's that mentality that will keep people like me from investing more in NIL going forward. Why should I invest in something that our administration and fan base majority isnt serious about? I can do more with my money and my Fall Saturdays

I've seen the vast majority of MSU games in person. Which is probably more than you can say.

If you withhold NIL you're being stupid. Because doing so hurts all sports at MSU. Another mindset that some crappy MSU fans needs to get out of. "Let's sabotage the program because I don't like the coach and leave the next guy a mess. It's cool I can just blame the last coach when I actively discouraged fans to participate. But it's cool because we run the ball now and I get to say we're physical while we still can't beat Bama or Georgia consistently. So nothing's really changed."

Let me tell you something else- schools like Auburn when they want to get rid of a coach do the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. They give more to the program. Because then if the coach really isn't any good and is given all the resources in the world then they have good grounds to fire him AND they leave the program in good shape for the next coach.

And now you tell me who among the two of us is suggesting giving more more money to fix our program? That would be me. But you want to question my fandom? Really? Eat shit.

[Patrick Tibbons]

Fine.

Mullen 69-46 (.600)
In sec 33-39 (.458)

Leach 17-17 (.500)
In sec 10-15 (.400)

If mullen wasn't good, leach really sucks

Not an apples to apples comparison since Leach played a 10 game SEC only schedule his first year during the middle of covid where he didn?t get a spring or much of a summer with his team.

Also, Mullen outside of the year we opened with Oklahoma State, all of Mullen?s non conf games were played against G5 schools.

[tcdog70]

I would agree with that if we still had Mullen...a guy that could have won huge here with better recruiting. But Leach is the same with a roster full of 2 stars as he is a roster full of 4 stars...so I'm not sure HE is the guy to finally start recruiting big with. We have to continue as many high 3 and 4 stars as possible, plus a 5 star every few seasons in the trenches, all while increasing our coaching and transfer portal production. Easier said than done, but much more likely to land a slightly better class and hire a much better coach, than to increase our recruiting ranking 20 spots and hope Leach can turn that into a West Championship. Ole Miss isn't recruiting top 10, but they have the right coach, for example. We will have to do similar imo


Dude Dan couldn?t win at Fla. just admit your hate for Leach agenda

[Turfdawg67]

* Mullen 2009: 5-7 (3-5) Last in the West

Wins: Jax St, Vandy, Mid Tn, UK and OM
Losses: Auburn (24-49), LSU, Ga Tech, Houston, UF, Bama (3-31) & Ark (21-42)

-----------------------------

* Mullen 2010: 9-4 (4-4) Next to last in West (thanks OM)

Wins: Mem, UGA, Alcorn St, Houston, UF, UAB, UK & OM. The collective records of the teams we beat... 37-65 with only UF having a winning record at 8-5. We did whip Michigan (7-6) in the Gator Bowl.
Losses: Auburn (7-29), LSU, Bama (10-30) & Arky

------------------------------

* Mullen 2011: 7-6 (2-6) Next to last in West (thanks again OM!)
{preseason ranking of #20}

Wins: Mem, La Tech, UAB, UK, Tn-Martin & OM. Collective record of teams we beat... 31-54. With powerhouse La Tech with the only winning record at 8-5. We beat Wake Forest (6-7) in bowl game.
Losses: Auburn, LSU, UGA, USC, Bama (7-24) & Arky (17-44)

-------------------------------

Let's do one more to preview for Leach's next year...


Mullen 2012: 8-5 (4-4) 4th(!) in the West thanks to OM (3-5), Arky (2-6) & Auburn (0-8)

Wins: Jax St, Auburn, Troy, S.Alabama, UK, UT, Mid TN & Arky. Collective record...
37-61 with Jax St & Mid Tn with the only winning records.
Losses: Bama (7-38), A&M (13-38), LSU (17-37) & OM (24-41). And we gave Northwestern their first bowl victory since 1949 in the Gator Bowl.

This was our teaser to the "We Believe" season. We started 7-0 and then proceeded to get blown out in 5 of our last 6 games. But we were "competitive" and "balanced" hmmm.

-------------------------------

If anyone is counting, that blue collar offense scored 2 TDS vs Bama in 3 years.

[Santiago]

Not an apples to apples comparison since Leach played a 10 game SEC only schedule his first year during the middle of covid where he didn?t get a spring or much of a summer with his team.

Also, Mullen outside of the year we opened with Oklahoma State, all of Mullen?s non conf games were played against G5 schools.

Good points, and people that don't want Leach continue to intentionally leave out Leach's first year was a 10 game SEC schedule and with Covid impacting spring and summer workouts. The Power 5 v. Mullen's non-conference is spot on also. Mullen had the easy recipe of win 4 G5s and then win 2-4 SEC games most seasons.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Cadaver I've read your posts and get what you're saying. To a large extent I agree. Couple points about your views:

1) you say you won't donate to NIL unless we have a coach that has potential to win big. That's fair, but recognize that there's far more people who get turned off by bad seasons than there are like you who get turned on by potential. IE, overall we get more money with 7-5 seasons than we would 2 bowless seasons as the high ceiling coach gets it together. So from an admin perspective, you can see why they're scared to get rid of a 7-5 coach.

2) You say you'd be find going 0-12 if it was "in the pursuit" of winning big. Well, Leach has proven at both schools he has that potential... but he had to be given more than 3 seasons to make it happen. I don't understand how you can say you'd be OK with 0-12 if the coach had potential to compete with the elite, but also say you want to fire a 7-5 coach that has proven multiple times they can build such a program? It does not jive. To me Leach is the coach you seek, only you get 7-5 instead of 0-12.

3) regarding winning big, you need to find another football team to support, because we CANNOT and WILL NOT EVER compete with programs throwing tens of millions of dollars at each recruiting class. Bama's QB made more NIL money last year before he ever took a college snap than we have GATHERED SO FAR for ALL NIL. We CANNOT get top players competing with that. Imagine if the NFL had no salary cap and one team spent 20x the salary as another team- that's college. That's OSU/UGA/Texas/Bama to us. If you can't find enjoyment out of 8-4 then you need ot move on, because Saban himself couldn't win big here. There is a reason top coaches are desperate to get to blue bloods, it's because they know that is the only way to win big in this sport. In the pros coaches never move around, because the money is equal and any team can be built into a contender.

I'm no lover of Leach. Our terrible road performances this season and the lack of a step forward on offense have me mostly off the wagon. But I disagree with some of your logic leading you to be so passionate about this.

[TrapGame]

Good points, and people that don't want Leach continue to intentionally leave out Leach's first year was a 10 game SEC schedule and with Covid impacting spring and summer workouts. The Power 5 v. Mullen's non-conference is spot on also. Mullen had the easy recipe of win 4 G5s and then win 2-4 SEC games most seasons.

And honestly Leach spent 2020 dealing with Moorhead's mess too. A real spring and fall would have gone a long way in getting guys to buy in and weed out some malcontents. And it really would have helped Costello too.

[Turfdawg67]

Vs. Ranked Opponents through year 3:

Mullen: 2-12 (.143)
Leach: 6-8 (.429)

[Goldendawg]

I'd hire Mullen today when the transfer portal to assist him. He wouldn't have to recruit near as hard.

Several big name programs could be looking for HC at year's end. Just how high is he on AU's list or those to come? He would be Polk 2.0 for us, Country Club staff, still hates recruiting, still draws up in big games, etc.

[msstate7]

Several big name programs could be looking for HC at year's end. Just how high is he on AU's list or those to come? He would be Polk 2.0 for us, Country Club staff, still hates recruiting, still draws up in big games, etc.

Or he could be Mack brown at UNC

[Homedawg]

Dude Dan couldn?t win at Fla. just admit your hate for Leach agenda

Dan went to 3 ny6 bowls at Fla.

[TrapGame]

Several big name programs could be looking for HC at year's end. Just how high is he on AU's list or those to come? He would be Polk 2.0 for us, Country Club staff, still hates recruiting, still draws up in big games, etc.

Really Mullen is no different than Leach. He just runs the ball while Leach throws it. Mullen is a 7-5/8-4 coach here just like Leach. If our new AD is okay with hiring back the cheating ex-wife then we hired a dud as AD. As I've said before, if we move on from Leach actually go after a damn good coach.

[Really Clark?]

Vs. Ranked Opponents through year 3:

Mullen: 2-12 (.143)
Leach: 6-8 (.429)

That's incorrect, unless you are not going by final rankings. Leach has 3 wins vs ranked teams with them being #20 NC State, #18 Kentucky and #22 Tulsa..3-9 so far. Of those losses under Mullen time, 9 of those teams finished Top 10 and 11 finished Top 15. Heck our only losses in 2010 were to the SEC West who finished 1, 8, 10, 12. 2011 4 losses against 1, 2, 5 and 9. The strength of those teams in 2010 and 2011 was unprecedented historically speaking.

[Quaoarsking]

if we move on from Leach actually go after a damn good coach.

And if someone can name a coach we could hire would who we can expect to win more than Mullen/Leach, please do so.

The only one I can think of it is maybe Mike Gundy, but other schools have tried to hire him away from Oklahoma State and failed. Anyone else is a huge risk.

[CadaverDawg]

If this was 2005, Leach would be a great hire. But it's 2022, and people have taken his air raid and made it into what Heupel runs at Tennessee. Tennessee is playing the PS5 video game on a flat screen, and we're playing Nintendo on a tube tv.

We need an energy injection.

[CadaverDawg]

Dan went to 3 ny6 bowls at Fla.

You and your bloody facts

[Turfdawg67]

That's incorrect, unless you are not going by final rankings. Leach has 3 wins vs ranked teams with them being #20 NC State, #18 Kentucky and #22 Tulsa..3-9 so far. Of those losses under Mullen time, 9 of those teams finished Top 10 and 11 finished Top 15. Heck our only losses in 2010 were to the SEC West who finished 1, 8, 10, 12. 2011 4 losses against 1, 2, 5 and 9. The strength of those teams in 2010 and 2011 was unprecedented historically speaking.

Yes, ranking at the time we played them. Please use that logic with our historic 2014 year when we beat 3 top 10 teams in a row. 2 of the 3 didn't finish ranked and Auburn finished #22. Look, I used to defend Mullen with you (against some of these same ppl) but when you pull back the layers, there ain't much there to garner these visions of grandeur. He beat most teams he should've and lost to most teams that were good. He was set up to win 6 minimum... luckily he had Vandy, UK, UT, UGA when they were terrible. He also got 0-8 OM, Arky and Auburn teams

[Quaoarsking]

If this was 2005, Leach would be a great hire. But it's 2022, and people have taken his air raid and made it into what Heupel runs at Tennessee. Tennessee is playing the PS5 video game on a flat screen, and we're playing Nintendo on a tube tv.

We need an energy injection.

If Heupel coached our talent level and Leach coached his talent level, you'd see the opposite. We need to step up recruiting.

Also, we punch well above our weight influence with Keenum, and multiple ADs as well as Sankey having sympathies toward us. We need to be lobby for more equitable NIL rules that smooth out the talent more.

[msstate7]

Our fanbase is so weird. It's somehow you have to like leach and hate mullen or vice versa. I don't hate leach bc of mullen... I hate leach bc I absolutely detest watching this type of football.

[Turfdawg67]

I hate this offense against good teams that shut it down and I hated Mullen's when good teams would shut it down. Those Sundays were just like these except it was "our receivers are sh*t", "holloway up the middle" and "check down Charlie". Mullen gets a pass because we were coming off Jackie's late career debacle and Croom's whole tenure.

[sandjunky]

I hate this offense against good teams that shut it down and I hated Mullen's when good teams would shut it down. Those Sundays were just like these except it was "our receivers are sh*t", "holloway up the middle" and "check down Charlie". Mullen gets a pass because we were coming off Jackie's late career debacle and Croom's whole tenure.
Think how crappy this would be if not for Mullen digging state out of the crater it was in

[CadaverDawg]

If Heupel coached our talent level and Leach coached his talent level, you'd see the opposite. We need to step up recruiting.

Also, we punch well above our weight influence with Keenum, and multiple ADs as well as Sankey having sympathies toward us. We need to be lobby for more equitable NIL rules that smooth out the talent more.

Think it's easier for Heupel to recruit when you see his offense versus ours? Yes we have to recruit, but we have to show something to recruit to

[CadaverDawg]

Our fanbase is so weird. It's somehow you have to like leach and hate mullen or vice versa. I don't hate leach bc of mullen... I hate leach bc I absolutely detest watching this type of football.

Exactly

[CoachT14]

I don't think that is the national perception of our program, nor is that borne out by statistics. For example, we are still 8th in the FPI in the SEC since Mullen left (ahead of Ole Miss and Tennessee), just like we were in the second half of his run here.

Our program is not in any way, shape or form tangibly better than Ole Miss or Tennessee right now.

[CoachT14]

Really Mullen is no different than Leach. He just runs the ball while Leach throws it. Mullen is a 7-5/8-4 coach here just like Leach. If our new AD is okay with hiring back the cheating ex-wife then we hired a dud as AD. As I've said before, if we move on from Leach actually go after a damn good coach.

Call me when Leach actually wins 8 games.

[bulldawg28]

Call me when Leach actually wins 8 games.

Case solved

[msu15]

Our fanbase is so weird. It's somehow you have to like leach and hate mullen or vice versa. I don't hate leach bc of mullen... I hate leach bc I absolutely detest watching this type of football.

Yep. People like Qua and Whiskey are so hell bent on defending Leach that they lack all logic and reason and refuse to see any other points of view. Nobody wants to see us lose, nobody wants to see Leach fail at MSU, but you can't tell them that. Says a lot about them.

[Quaoarsking]

Yep. People like Qua and Whiskey are so hell bent on defending Leach that they lack all logic and reason and refuse to see any other points of view. Nobody wants to see us lose, nobody wants to see Leach fail at MSU, but you can't tell them that. Says a lot about them.

You're the guy who thinks that "record against Ole Miss without any regard to how good those Ole Miss teams are" is the primary thing that matters in evaluating a coach, and you're saying I lack logic?? Give me a break!

[Percho]

1. Be happy with 6-6/7-5 and continuing the bowl streak every year against someone like Miami of Ohio in the weed eater bowl. Meanwhile we continue to battle Vandy as the worst attended SEC football program, and overall enthusiasm continues to dwindle.

I know it sounds spoiled to complain about 7-5, but it is what it is. 7-5 has gotten stale. I just want us to have hope going in to big games. I can take 7-5 if we at least have a chance against the big boys. With Leach, we don't...and we won't. Argue all you want, but you know it's true.

2. Get rid of Leach/Encourage him to retire with pay....and take a chance on hiring someone that could potentially give us hope against the big boys.

I know it's risky. And it could result in Jimbo-like results. But we aren't beating LSU, Bama, Georgia, Tennessee, or Ole Miss again under Leach. Not with their current coaches. So do you risk losing the Belk bowl for a long shot chance at the Sugar?


I totally get the fear many have of going with a risky hire and potentially losing our bowl streak. I know we're poor State and it could be much worse. But how much NIL money will come in if we continue showing no ability to compete with the better teams? What is the advantage of staying at a pretty much guaranteed 6-6/7-5/8-4? These days damn near everyone goes bowling. Does anyone remember who won the Texas Bowl the last few years? Me neither.

We have to decide if we're wanting to try to compete, or if we're ok with being a 6-6 type program going forward. If you think we're going to increase our money as a 6-6/7-5 program...we're not. And yes, Ole Miss is committed and running circles around us. So are we going to get serious about football, or not? Are you good with 7-5 and a bowl while others are pumping in money to compete? You cool with pushing harder at hoops and baseball and sucking at football?

Those are the questions State fans and admin must answer. Are we all in on the #1 money maker sport, or are we too conservative (scared) to take a chance on being better? Maybe we can, maybe we can't...but as my grandpa said, "can't never could". I think we can do better. There's no way Ole Miss can consistently be top 15 taking Bama to the wire, and we have to settle for 30 point ass whippings against them. The Grove ain't that special...Oxford ain't that great....it's a commitment. A commitment we don't have. We can, we should...we don't. We would rather feel sorry for ourselves. Ole Miss is elitist, and pricks...but you can't deny their confidence, and the expectations they have. We are chicken shits with no confidence we can step up and get it done. So we settle. We settle for mediocre. We settle for a little better than average. We settle for "upper half of the league". "It's the SEC West" after all. "These teams have more money than us". "These teams have towns with more to offer". Bunch of damn excuses if you ask me.

Commit, 100%...or commit to not committing so those that want to win at a high level can commit their time and money and weekends to something or somebody that wants to succeed.

Question I thought about today,

How good would our present team be with Dak at his Jr Sr level?

In other words id Leach a QB away from being pretty good?

[Turfdawg67]

Question I thought about today,

How good would our present team be with Dak at his Jr Sr level?

In other words id Leach a QB away from being pretty good?

I guess we'll never know since he keeps trotting Will out there. I wish someone else would get a shot next week... and next year.

[Percho]

I guess we'll never know since he keeps trotting Will out there. I wish someone else would get a shot next week... and next year.

You really do not believe Leach knows who his best QB is, do you? If 2015 Dak was presently at State you believe Leach would trot Will out on the field, right?

[CoachT14]

You really do not believe Leach knows who his best QB is, do you? If 2015 Dak was presently at State you believe Leach would trot Will out on the field, right?

At this point, I’m of the belief that Leach is hitching his wagon to Will sink or swim. His refusal to let Sawyer get snaps in blow outs with the 1s has signaled that in my opinion.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

At this point, I’m of the belief that Leach is hitching his wagon to Will sink or swim. His refusal to let Sawyer get snaps in blow outs with the 1s has signaled that in my opinion.

Or he values getting the starter as many reps as possible more than he values getting the backup ready.