Flores sues NFL

[Irondawg]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33194862/brian-flores-sues-nfl-others-former-miami-dolphins-coach-alleges-racism-hiring-practices

I think he?s a good coach and I had been really surprised he had not gotten another gig despite the reputation that he was hard to work with. I was shocked he was fired in the first place. But who would hire him now? Yikes.

And I get the the Brian Daboll thing is embarrassing but sometimes teams know who they want before they fire the other and while the Rooney rule has indeed had some positive benefits, it?s still often just a charade.

For example I would assume the Saints plan to hire Dennis Allen - anybody else they interview of any race is probably an uphill battle.

I think he?s going to have a hard time proving this at the level he is trying to since I know there were a couple of minority GM hired this cycle. Lots of OC and DC still in the air. Plus you can?t prove that one team NOT making a hire is proof of systemic issues.

They?ll probably settle because the NFL doesn?t want the bad press but I think he?d have a hard time winning on merit although I have been shocked there hasn?t been a minority head coaching hire thus far in this cycle since there are some high quality candidates out there.

[Cowbell]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33194862/brian-flores-sues-nfl-others-former-miami-dolphins-coach-alleges-racism-hiring-practices

I think he?s a good coach and I had been really surprised he had not gotten another gig despite the reputation that he was hard to work with. I was shocked he was fired in the first place. But who would hire him now? Yikes.

And I get the the Brian Daboll thing is embarrassing but sometimes teams know who they want before they fire the other and while the Rooney rule has indeed had some positive benefits, it?s still often just a charade.

For example I would assume the Saints plan to hire Dennis Allen - anybody else they interview of any race is probably an uphill battle.

I think he?s going to have a hard time proving this at the level he is trying to since I know there were a couple of minority GM hired this cycle. Lots of OC and DC still in the air. Plus you can?t prove that one team NOT making a hire is proof of systemic issues.

They?ll probably settle because the NFL doesn?t want the bad press but I think he?d have a hard time winning on merit although I have been shocked there hasn?t been a minority head coaching hire thus far in this cycle since there are some high quality candidates out there.

He just put the death nail in his career.

[Johnson85]

He just put the death nail in his career.

The knell in the coffin so to speak.

[Pancho]

What is his angle?

[msstate7]

The more interesting part of the lawsuit is he alleges Miami offered him 100k to purposely lose games his first year. Seems this allegation could get whoever offered that in trouble

[parabrave]

The more interesting part of the lawsuit is he alleges Miami offered him 100k to purposely lose games his first year. Seems this allegation could get whoever offered that in trouble

The owner got pissed at him for ruining the chance of a 1st rd pick.

[StarkVegasSteve]

What is his angle?

I am wondering the same damn thing. He straight up just took a flamethrower to his career. He won?t even be able to get a position coach job. Like his days in the NFL are OVER. Which is sad because I actually thought he would be really good in NOLA. I was excited to see the leadership had dinner with him last night and WAS going to interview him Thursday. I imagine that is cancelled now.

[Commercecomet24]

I really liked Flores thought he was gonna be a really good HC. Now he's gonna get some quick cash in a settlement and wind up coaching hs somewhere for the rest of his life.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

So when a black coach isn’t hired, it’s discrimination. When a white cornerback isn’t hired, it’s because he isn’t good enough. Why is that?

Do we need a Rooney Rule for players? Maybe it should match the census. Where are the hispanic and Asian players? Why are white players so underrepresented compared to the US population?

Why does MLB have a program to reach black communities to get more players interested in the game, yet the NBA doesn’t have a similar program to reach white players in white communities?

[Saltydog]

Wow, what else can you say but "dumb". When all else fails, just claim racism. He would've been hired by another club in due time. He won't now. Talk about cutting your nose off in spite of your face.

[thf24]

The more interesting part of the lawsuit is he alleges Miami offered him 100k to purposely lose games his first year. Seems this allegation could get whoever offered that in trouble

Serious integrity issue for the league. No different from gambling minus the legal aspect. If there's anything substantial to this I would think they'll need to make an example out of someone.

[Tater]

So when a black coach isn’t hired, it’s discrimination. When a white cornerback isn’t hired, it’s because he isn’t good enough. Why is that?

Do we need a Rooney Rule for players? Maybe it should match the census. Where are the hispanic and Asian players? Why are white players so underrepresented compared to the US population?

Why does MLB have a program to reach black communities to get more players interested in the game, yet the NBA doesn’t have a similar program to reach white players in white communities?

This is a brain dead take. Sports rely on peak athleticism. The best athletes play. There's no need to reach out to white people for basketball because a shit load play. Just they aren't the best of the best. Watch college games more. Especially at the mid major level.

When hiring for leadership roles it's a much more level playing ground and a person's physical abilities don't matter as much as their mental abilities.

As for baseball, the outreach program is due to the barrier to entry for baseball monetarily. Though I wouldn't praise anything baseball leadership is doing because they have been constantly doing the wrong things.

Flores has verifiable proof that the Giants forewent the Rooney rule. He's going scorched earth because he realized that he is already radioactive and the owners club was going to keep him out after how Miami treated him.

[Tater]

Wow, what else can you say but "dumb". When all else fails, just claim racism. He would've been hired by another club in due time. He won't now. Talk about cutting your nose off in spite of your face.

I mean he was told that a white guy got hired for a job before he got interviewed as a black man. The NFL has a Rooney rule in place to give a fair shake. Clearly the Giants just treated it as a box check. Thats extremely shitty hiring practices period. It's the level of what you see with jobs making outlandish requirements to be able to hire H1B these days for the low. Just a sham and he was used solely for the color of his skin and nothing else.

[662dawg]

I mean he was told that a white guy got hired for a job before he got interviewed as a black man. The NFL has a Rooney rule in place to give a fair shake. Clearly the Giants just treated it as a box check. Thats extremely shitty hiring practices period. It's the level of what you see with jobs making outlandish requirements to be able to hire H1B these days for the low. Just a sham and he was used solely for the color of his skin and nothing else.

The real sham is that they even have to interview another guy period. Once they had their guy they shouldn?t be forced to interview someone else based on the color of their skin. Owners/GM?s aren?t just saying ?hey I think I?ll hire this guy because he?s white? if they think an available Hispanic or black coach would do a better job. That is just not happening. Not in todays world. Not in any world. Especially when the same owners/GM?s getting ?accused? have rosters of about 70% of their players that are people of color.

I thought Flores had great potential, but he just ruined his career by playing the race card.

The more concerning thing is what 7 alluded too. Trying to pay a coach to tank a season will be a very bad look for them. Unfortunately coming out with this may have been worse on his career than anything else.

[Irondawg]

Why do you say he thought he was already radioactive and the owners club would keep him out. He was a final candidate for a number of jobs this off-season.

And unless word was getting around that he was unbearable to work with he would have been hired this cycle or next as he had a good record.

I can imagine how in the world he would have never gotten another HC gig based on his current resume.

Tons of NFL coaches are better their second go round and he was actually pretty successful in his first stint.

[662dawg]

Why do you say he thought he was already radioactive and the owners club would keep him out. He was a final candidate for a number of jobs this off-season.

And unless word was getting around that he was unbearable to work with he would have been hired this cycle or next as he had a good record.

I can imagine how in the world he would have never gotten another HC gig based on his current resume.

Tons of NFL coaches are better their second go round and he was actually pretty successful in his first stint.

Not to mention that the Dolphins last head coach, Adam Gase, was fired after going 23-25 in three years including a playoff appearance. Flores was 24-25 with no playoff appearances. There?s almost 100% chance that he would have landed another head coaching job somewhere had he not done this. I?m going to say you may be right & there?s more to this. Maybe he just wasn?t likable and a cancer & the word was getting around. 🤷🏼

[Tater]

Why do you say he thought he was already radioactive and the owners club would keep him out. He was a final candidate for a number of jobs this off-season.

And unless word was getting around that he was unbearable to work with he would have been hired this cycle or next as he had a good record.

I can imagine how in the world he would have never gotten another HC gig based on his current resume.

Tons of NFL coaches are better their second go round and he was actually pretty successful in his first stint.

The dolphins dropped tons of material and his interviews were merely box-checking. Like... lmao. "Final candidate." He was a final candidate for the Giants job that was apparently decided before he was even interviewed.

[Tater]

The real sham is that they even have to interview another guy period. Once they had their guy they shouldn?t be forced to interview someone else based on the color of their skin. Owners/GM?s aren?t just saying ?hey I think I?ll hire this guy because he?s white? if they think an available Hispanic or black coach would do a better job. That is just not happening. Not in todays world. Not in any world. Especially when the same owners/GM?s getting ?accused? have rosters of about 70% of their players that are people of color.

I thought Flores had great potential, but he just ruined his career by playing the race card.

The more concerning thing is what 7 alluded too. Trying to pay a coach to tank a season will be a very bad look for them. Unfortunately coming out with this may have been worse on his career than anything else.

That's fine and dandy in a perfect world but studies have shown that forcing this method works in the long haul to promote equal opportunity and a more even split. It's to help eliminate biases that you may even be blind to. We unfortunately don't start from scratch. So this is needed. People don't consciously make the decision, but it is a reality that you are always going to prefer people who look like you in some manner. It's subconscious biases that we all have. Animalistic instinct if you will. You want to test it... just go gather 10 sugar ants and 10 fire ants. Get them from different colonies. Put them all in a jar. Shake it up. The sugar ants will work together to attack the fire ants and vice versa.

Given that, guard rails need to be put in place. And it's such a disgrace when you spit in the face of that and use people to fill a quota.

[Tater]

Not to mention that the Dolphins last head coach, Adam Gase, was fired after going 23-25 in three years including a playoff appearance. Flores was 24-25 with no playoff appearances. There?s almost 100% chance that he would have landed another head coaching job somewhere had he not done this. I?m going to say you may be right & there?s more to this. Maybe he just wasn?t likable and a cancer & the word was getting around. ����

Oh yea. He inherited a god awful team that started 0-7 with two of the worst games ever to start a year. They looked like a lock for 1-15 at best. He rebuilt them mid season and turned that team around to finish 5-4. (And why he referenced the owner paying bonuses to lose) 24-18 since that start. 19-14 his last two years. Not to mention his QB was injured a vast majority this year. Missing the playoffs the past two years because of one game losing on a FG. He was on the cusp with Miami. Maybe he peaked, maybe not, but I think given another year, that East division would be a bloodbath + the Jets

[662dawg]

That's fine and dandy in a perfect world but studies have shown that forcing this method works in the long haul to promote equal opportunity and a more even split. It's to help eliminate biases that you may even be blind to. We unfortunately don't start from scratch. So this is needed. People don't consciously make the decision, but it is a reality that you are always going to prefer people who look like you in some manner. It's subconscious biases that we all have. Animalistic instinct if you will. You want to test it... just go gather 10 sugar ants and 10 fire ants. Get them from different colonies. Put them all in a jar. Shake it up. The sugar ants will work together to attack the fire ants and vice versa.

Given that, guard rails need to be put in place. And it's such a disgrace when you spit in the face of that and use people to fill a quota.

Why isn?t this same thought process applied to an NBA/NFL players roster if it?s really about equality?

FWIW I?m glad it isn?t. Both leagues would be much more boring. The best player should play regardless of race, just like the owners should be able to hire who they believe to be the best man to lead their team regardless of race.

[662dawg]

Oh yea. He inherited a god awful team that started 0-7 with two of the worst games ever to start a year. They looked like a lock for 1-15 at best. He rebuilt them mid season and turned that team around to finish 5-4. (And why he referenced the owner paying bonuses to lose) 24-18 since that start. 19-14 his last two years. Not to mention his QB was injured a vast majority this year. Missing the playoffs the past two years because of one game losing on a FG. He was on the cusp with Miami. Maybe he peaked, maybe not, but I think given another year, that East division would be a bloodbath + the Jets

This is not true. He inherited a second place team, had an upgrade at the QB position & proceeded to finish last in the division in his first season. He missed the playoffs all 3 seasons. Gase took a 6-10 team & turned them into a 10-6 team his first season. The argument could also be made that Gase had them on the cusp when he was canned.

I don?t think Flores race had much to do with him being fired or him ever being hired by anyone else.

[Tater]

This is not true. He inherited a second place team, had an upgrade at the QB position & proceeded to finish last in the division in his first season. He missed the playoffs all 3 seasons. Gase took a 6-10 team & turned them into a 10-6 team his first season. The argument could also be made that Gase had them on the cusp when he was canned.

I don?t think Flores race had much to do with him being fired or him ever being hired by anyone else.

Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahhaha hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah


******* man I've read some funny spin.. but that, THAT is amazing. Bravo. Top tier stupidity.

He inherited a "second place team" is such a intentionally misleading way to describe it.
Here's an article mid offseason about how the Dolphins were going full scale rebuild: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/05/dolphins-offseason-grade-free-agents-draft-picks

Now for your next point. A quarterback...UPGRADE??? Like really. You look at what Tannehill has done away from Miami, led the Titans to three straight playoff appearances and Call Ryan Fitzpatrick / Josh Rosen an UPGRADE? Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Adam Gase did good in 2016. And then proceeded to deteriorate goodwill and cratered the team. One the cusp? he went 6-10 and 7-9 his last two seasons. Including finishing 4-9 with an OT win and the only game winning multi lateral play in league history.

He then proceeded to torpedo the Jets. It was clear he's not fit to be a HC. His schtick wore thin. Meanwhile Flores finished the year 8-1. No one wanted to see those healthy Dolphins in the playoffs.

And for your last sentence, no one is saying his race got him fired. He's saying his unwillingness to tank games or skirt league rules got him fired. The Dolphins wanted him to court Brady while it was still tampering. That led to an icy relationship and departure. Miami just has shitty ownership and felt the need to fluff themselves after being panned by the media for firing a dubbed rising star like Flores after the finish the team had.

The way they described his relationship with ownership is enough to ensure he'll most likely never get a HC again.

The part where an issue of discrimination comes in is these faux interviews. The Broncos one sounds extremely egregious.

And it's comical when you look at it. The rooney rule serves to help you make a better decision. Coaches know that you HAVE to go through this process. You gain no benefit in deciding to hire the first interviewee. You only serve to hurt yourself by not conducting all your required interviews. Is it shocking that the teams named as flubbing this process (Broncos, Giants) are already searching for a coach again?

[Tater]

Why isn?t this same thought process applied to an NBA/NFL players roster if it?s really about equality?

FWIW I?m glad it isn?t. Both leagues would be much more boring. The best player should play regardless of race, just like the owners should be able to hire who they believe to be the best man to lead their team regardless of race.

You keep trying to bring other sports into this when it's an NFL thing. And again, players of all creed, color, background have opportunity given at every turn. Hiring on athletic capability rather than for authority is a much different job and skill set.

You don't interview five plumbers and make sure one of them is black. You hire the best combination of skill set / price value / reputation. When hiring for management, you need to have a leader who can manage diverse personalities. Different skill set entirely. Disproportionately minorities of every color are not interviewed / hired for these roles. Until you can accept that these are two different job hiring requirements there is no helping you and I pray you never are put in a position to interview / hire a manager. You clearly just don't get the difference at best or are just looking for a cheap lame gotcha at worst. Stop it.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

Where are our resident social justice warriors? I feel it's improper to comment until they have had their chance. Im surprised their radar hasn't gone off.

[OLJWales]

You keep trying to bring other sports into this when it's an NFL thing. And again, players of all creed, color, background have opportunity given at every turn. Hiring on athletic capability rather than for authority is a much different job and skill set.

You don't interview five plumbers and make sure one of them is black. You hire the best combination of skill set / price value / reputation. When hiring for management, you need to have a leader who can manage diverse personalities. Different skill set entirely. Disproportionately minorities of every color are not interviewed / hired for these roles. Until you can accept that these are two different job hiring requirements there is no helping you and I pray you never are put in a position to interview / hire a manager. You clearly just don't get the difference at best or are just looking for a cheap lame gotcha at worst. Stop it.

It's 2022 and Owners & GM's wanna win and don't give a damn about skin color. Lack of minority HC's doesn't automatically mean racism.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

This is a brain dead take. Sports rely on peak athleticism. The best athletes play. There's no need to reach out to white people for basketball because a shit load play. Just they aren't the best of the best. Watch college games more. Especially at the mid major level.

When hiring for leadership roles it's a much more level playing ground and a person's physical abilities don't matter as much as their mental abilities.

Since you believe that white people just aren?t the best athletically, could it not be possible that black people aren?t the best mentally? In 2021 the average ACT score was 16.3 for blacks and 21.7 for whites.

Now I?m not saying that?s true, but you are certainly stating that a person can have certain better skills just because of race. That’s what you are saying.

My point is you can’t have it both ways.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

It's 2022 and Owners & GM's wanna win and don't give a damn about skin color. Lack of minority HC's doesn't automatically mean racism.

I agree with you. Owners and GM’s want to win.

[662dawg]

Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahhaha hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah


******* man I've read some funny spin.. but that, THAT is amazing. Bravo. Top tier stupidity.

He inherited a "second place team" is such a intentionally misleading way to describe it.
Here's an article mid offseason about how the Dolphins were going full scale rebuild: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/05/dolphins-offseason-grade-free-agents-draft-picks

Now for your next point. A quarterback...UPGRADE??? Like really. You look at what Tannehill has done away from Miami, led the Titans to three straight playoff appearances and Call Ryan Fitzpatrick / Josh Rosen an UPGRADE? Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Adam Gase did good in 2016. And then proceeded to deteriorate goodwill and cratered the team. One the cusp? he went 6-10 and 7-9 his last two seasons. Including finishing 4-9 with an OT win and the only game winning multi lateral play in league history.

He then proceeded to torpedo the Jets. It was clear he's not fit to be a HC. His schtick wore thin. Meanwhile Flores finished the year 8-1. No one wanted to see those healthy Dolphins in the playoffs.

And for your last sentence, no one is saying his race got him fired. He's saying his unwillingness to tank games or skirt league rules got him fired. The Dolphins wanted him to court Brady while it was still tampering. That led to an icy relationship and departure. Miami just has shitty ownership and felt the need to fluff themselves after being panned by the media for firing a dubbed rising star like Flores after the finish the team had.

The way they described his relationship with ownership is enough to ensure he'll most likely never get a HC again.

The part where an issue of discrimination comes in is these faux interviews. The Broncos one sounds extremely egregious.

And it's comical when you look at it. The rooney rule serves to help you make a better decision. Coaches know that you HAVE to go through this process. You gain no benefit in deciding to hire the first interviewee. You only serve to hurt yourself by not conducting all your required interviews. Is it shocking that the teams named as flubbing this process (Broncos, Giants) are already searching for a coach again?

How is it misleading? He took a 2nd place team that went 7-9 & turned it into a last place 5-11 team. What?s misleading about it?

In 2018, Ryan Tannehill only played in 11 games & had 1,900 yards passing after missing the entire 2017 season. Brock Osweiler started 5 games. Ryan Fitzpatrick threw for over 3,500 yards in 2019 and was pretty solid his two years in Miami. There was an upgrade at QB from 2018 to 2019. My statement has nothing to do with what they?ve done in their careers, just those two seasons. Tannehill had a few injury plagued seasons at the end of his Dolphins career.

Adam Gase went 6-10 in his second year & 7-9 in his third year. In 2017 Gase?s starting QB Ryan Tannehill missed the season because he injured his leg & he had to go with a declining Jay Cutler & Matt Moore as his QB?s. In fact Cutler retired after the 2017 season.

I?m not saying Gase is a good coach. It?s obvious he?s out of his league, but Flores wasn?t much better & this is not even debatable. Coaches are judged on wins & losses. Gase was 23-25 & Flores was 24-25. Both were given 3 years.

You?re being simple minded. Maybe they just thought, like with Gase, he wasn?t going to work out & wanted to go in a different direction? Maybe other teams had insider knowledge that he was a cancer? Which is pretty obvious at this point, correct?

Although I disagree with what the Dolphins owner tried to get him to do, if true, you can?t think that it?s the only franchise or that he?s the only coach that?s been asked to do so. He?s simply the only coach who has snitched, which isn?t necessarily a terrible thing in this case, but is something he?ll have to live with the consequences for the rest of his life. There is a reason they say snitches get stitches, except in this case the snitches stitches will be that he will likely never coach another down in the NFL.

The jokes on you!

[Hot Rock]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33194862/brian-flores-sues-nfl-others-former-miami-dolphins-coach-alleges-racism-hiring-practices

I think he?s a good coach and I had been really surprised he had not gotten another gig despite the reputation that he was hard to work with. I was shocked he was fired in the first place. But who would hire him now? Yikes.

And I get the the Brian Daboll thing is embarrassing but sometimes teams know who they want before they fire the other and while the Rooney rule has indeed had some positive benefits, it?s still often just a charade.

For example I would assume the Saints plan to hire Dennis Allen - anybody else they interview of any race is probably an uphill battle.

I think he?s going to have a hard time proving this at the level he is trying to since I know there were a couple of minority GM hired this cycle. Lots of OC and DC still in the air. Plus you can?t prove that one team NOT making a hire is proof of systemic issues.

They?ll probably settle because the NFL doesn?t want the bad press but I think he?d have a hard time winning on merit although I have been shocked there hasn?t been a minority head coaching hire thus far in this cycle since there are some high quality candidates out there.

The Giants didn't interview him in good faith. The Belichick texts prove that happened. They already had hired another guy before his interview even happened. They may find out Belichick was wrong but I doubt it.

Assuming proof that the Giants did this and him being wronged, not standing up and suing would be the snowflake move.

The next question:

Is it about race? The Giants may not think it is but that it still could be. They hired a guy without even interviewing a black candidate which is required under NFL rules. The Giants may not have consciously said, "I am not hiring a black guy." But their systematic hiring practices exclude even the notion that a black guy could be hired is in play. I mean they didn't even interview him or any black candidate before making their hire.

There have been plenty of horrible white head coaches that got new head coaching jobs. Some even went on to have some success at other places. When is it going to be OK to be a horrible black coach and get another gig to be afforded those same opportunities.

[MrCoachKlein]

That's fine and dandy in a perfect world but studies have shown that forcing this method works in the long haul to promote equal opportunity and a more even split. It's to help eliminate biases that you may even be blind to. We unfortunately don't start from scratch. So this is needed. People don't consciously make the decision, but it is a reality that you are always going to prefer people who look like you in some manner. It's subconscious biases that we all have. Animalistic instinct if you will. You want to test it... just go gather 10 sugar ants and 10 fire ants. Get them from different colonies. Put them all in a jar. Shake it up. The sugar ants will work together to attack the fire ants and vice versa.

Given that, guard rails need to be put in place. And it's such a disgrace when you spit in the face of that and use people to fill a quota.

"Even opportunity" (equality) does not equal "even split" (equity). They created a racist rule to fight racism.

"It's subconscious biases that we all have." Replace "black" with "white" in any rule based on skin color and see if it checks some of your subconscious biases.

[Tater]

Since you believe that white people just aren?t the best athletically, could it not be possible that black people aren?t the best mentally? In 2021 the average ACT score was 16.3 for blacks and 21.7 for whites.

Now I?m not saying that?s true, but you are certainly stating that a person can have certain better skills just because of race. That’s what you are saying.

My point is you can’t have it both ways.

Standardized tests have largely been proven to have social biases inherently prevalent in them. And are more a predictor of obedience and memory recall than they are leadership qualities. Congrats on making the opposite point that you tried to make.

[Tater]

How is it misleading? He took a 2nd place team that went 7-9 & turned it into a last place 5-11 team. What?s misleading about it?

In 2018, Ryan Tannehill only played in 11 games & had 1,900 yards passing after missing the entire 2017 season. Brock Osweiler started 5 games. Ryan Fitzpatrick threw for over 3,500 yards in 2019 and was pretty solid his two years in Miami. There was an upgrade at QB from 2018 to 2019. My statement has nothing to do with what they?ve done in their careers, just those two seasons. Tannehill had a few injury plagued seasons at the end of his Dolphins career.

Adam Gase went 6-10 in his second year & 7-9 in his third year. In 2017 Gase?s starting QB Ryan Tannehill missed the season because he injured his leg & he had to go with a declining Jay Cutler & Matt Moore as his QB?s. In fact Cutler retired after the 2017 season.

I?m not saying Gase is a good coach. It?s obvious he?s out of his league, but Flores wasn?t much better & this is not even debatable. Coaches are judged on wins & losses. Gase was 23-25 & Flores was 24-25. Both were given 3 years.

You?re being simple minded. Maybe they just thought, like with Gase, he wasn?t going to work out & wanted to go in a different direction? Maybe other teams had insider knowledge that he was a cancer? Which is pretty obvious at this point, correct?

Although I disagree with what the Dolphins owner tried to get him to do, if true, you can?t think that it?s the only franchise or that he?s the only coach that?s been asked to do so. He?s simply the only coach who has snitched, which isn?t necessarily a terrible thing in this case, but is something he?ll have to live with the consequences for the rest of his life. There is a reason they say snitches get stitches, except in this case the snitches stitches will be that he will likely never coach another down in the NFL.

The jokes on you!

If you're unwilling to even acknowledge that the Dolphins obviously went full scale rebuild between 2018 and 2019 to make your point then you're a lost cause.

Next you'll acknowledge it then blame Flores even though he's not the GM.

ETA: I'm done with this tangent with you. It's not even really relevant. He wasn't fired because of his race. And he was better than Gase. The Dolphins have been a trash organization since Shula left. There's a reason they've only had back to back winning seasons once since 2003 and why most people who don't live in your bubble of stupidity thought it was dumb to move on from him. It's piss poor upper management. But again that's not up for debate here. The Giants & Broncos hiring practices are more under fire.

[sleepy dawg]

It's 2022 and Owners & GM's wanna win and don't give a damn about skin color. Lack of minority HC's doesn't automatically mean racism.

Clearly the Dolphins didn't want to win. Why would they even hire him if they wanted him to lose? They could've just kept Gase to do that.

[OLJWales]

I agree with you. Owners and GM’s want to win.

When and how did "Equal Rights" Convert to "Equal Outcomes"? Sad.

[Tater]

"Even opportunity" (equality) does not equal "even split" (equity). They created a racist rule to fight racism.

"It's subconscious biases that we all have." Replace "black" with "white" in any rule based on skin color and see if it checks some of your subconscious biases.

It's not black and white

It's "longstanding oppressive majority now trying to do better" and "oppressed minorities"

Equal Opportunity is not Equity and no one is saying it is. But the fact that it's not perfect isn't a reason to NOT attempt it. Do not let perfect be the enemy of good.

[Tater]

I agree with you. Owners and GM’s want to win.

Then why did the Broncos not fairly interview all their required candidates and do their due dilligence to information gather ideas to better push their team forward. Only to fire their chosen man 3 years later. It's a bad strategy to decide to hire the first interviewee without even hearing any other pitches when you are required to do so. I'd argue they want to do what they want and stroke their ego more than they want to win. Otherwise their hiring practice would be better. (Which I do acknowledge they've begun cleaning house from the top down, so it would appear they knew that approach wasn't conducive to long term success anymore.)

[Irondawg]

The Giants didn't interview him in good faith. The Belichick texts prove that happened. They already had hired another guy before his interview even happened. They may find out Belichick was wrong but I doubt it.

Assuming proof that the Giants did this and him being wronged, not standing up and suing would be the snowflake move.

The next question:

Is it about race? The Giants may not think it is but that it still could be. They hired a guy without even interviewing a black candidate which is required under NFL rules. The Giants may not have consciously said, "I am not hiring a black guy." But their systematic hiring practices exclude even the notion that a black guy could be hired is in play. I mean they didn't even interview him or any black candidate before making their hire.

There have been plenty of horrible white head coaches that got new head coaching jobs. Some even went on to have some success at other places. When is it going to be OK to be a horrible black coach and get another gig to be afforded those same opportunities.

That may all be true and if so, sue the Giants. But he took on the whole league. If you?ve got a clear case against the Giants use them to make an example.

[Hot Rock]

That may all be true and if so, sue the Giants. But he took on the whole league. If you?ve got a clear case against the Giants use them to make an example.

Well, I don't know the whole story of why. I just read a little this morning. He may have a very good case, if not, he should have stuck with just the Giants like you said. That is usually decided or at least guided by lawyers who always want to go after the deepest pockets.

[HoopsDawg]

The more interesting part of the lawsuit is he alleges Miami offered him 100k to purposely lose games his first year. Seems this allegation could get whoever offered that in trouble

That is interesting, but I don't see what that has to do with race.

[Coach34]

The Giants didn't interview him in good faith. The Belichick texts prove that happened. They already had hired another guy before his interview even happened. They may find out Belichick was wrong but I doubt it.

Assuming proof that the Giants did this and him being wronged, not standing up and suing would be the snowflake move.

The next question:

Is it about race? The Giants may not think it is but that it still could be. They hired a guy without even interviewing a black candidate which is required under NFL rules. The Giants may not have consciously said, "I am not hiring a black guy." But their systematic hiring practices exclude even the notion that a black guy could be hired is in play. I mean they didn't even interview him or any black candidate before making their hire.

There have been plenty of horrible white head coaches that got new head coaching jobs. Some even went on to have some success at other places. When is it going to be OK to be a horrible black coach and get another gig to be afforded those same opportunities.

Good luck with that. He was indeed interviewed by multiple executives and it lasted over 4 hours. Being a token interview for jobs happens everyday in all facets of work on all levels. I've interviewed for some head jobs knowing who was going to get the job over me- a couple of them back in the day comes to mind. I still went to the interviews knowing they were going to hire the hometown son. And they did.

Bottom line- Mike Tomlin won a SB in his 2nd season and also made it to another. While he hasnt been but to 1 AFC championship game in the last 10 years- he still hasnt had a losing season. You want to keep your job? Be more like Mike Tomlin. He and Harbaugh in Baltimore are about the same guy.
I dont really see any coaches have 3 losing seasons in a row and keep their jobs in the NFL. Marr Rhule is already being talked about as on the hotseat in 2022. It's the nature of the beast

[msstate7]

That is interesting, but I don't see what that has to do with race.

It has nothing to do with race. I find the race deal boring bc he wasn't fired for being black

[Irondawg]

That is interesting, but I don't see what that has to do with race.

Unless they try to tie it the Hue Jackson thing that came out today and make a claim that teams only hire minority coaches to intentionally lose games.

I?m not sure of all the angles here as I haven?t read the entire allegations

[Tater]

That may all be true and if so, sue the Giants. But he took on the whole league. If you?ve got a clear case against the Giants use them to make an example.

He's got the Giants and Broncos from the example I've read. And apparently he's got some other coaches willing to step forward. Hue Jackson is a name I've heard (and that Hue was told to tank the Browns). We'll see how it plays out. Just because the entire NFL is mentioned does not mean that excludes the Giants from being found to be a rogue party with bad hiring practices.

[662dawg]

If you're unwilling to even acknowledge that the Dolphins obviously went full scale rebuild between 2018 and 2019 to make your point then you're a lost cause.

Next you'll acknowledge it then blame Flores even though he's not the GM.

ETA: I'm done with this tangent with you. It's not even really relevant. He wasn't fired because of his race. And he was better than Gase. The Dolphins have been a trash organization since Shula left. There's a reason they've only had back to back winning seasons once since 2003 and why most people who don't live in your bubble of stupidity thought it was dumb to move on from him. It's piss poor upper management. But again that's not up for debate here. The Giants & Broncos hiring practices are more under fire.

Again, maybe he was a cancer. He sure isn?t doing himself any favors by acting like a big crybaby right now just because he wasn?t hired somewhere else.

[Hot Rock]

Again, maybe he was a cancer. He sure isn?t doing himself any favors by acting like a big crybaby right now just because he wasn?t hired somewhere else.

I say he would be a snowflake if he was wronged and didn't sued. It takes some balls to take the NFL and that money machine.

Calling him a crybaby for suing just means you are making yourself judge and jury on the situation when you can't possibly know whether he was wronged or not. I know that I don't know, what do you know about the situation? You been in Miami or NY working in these NFL franchises and posting on this message board?

[HoopsDawg]

I say he would be a snowflake if he was wronged and didn't sued. It takes some balls to take the NFL and that money machine.

Calling him a crybaby for suing just means you are making yourself judge and jury on the situation when you can't possibly know whether he was wronged or not. I know that I don't know, what do you know about the situation? You been in Miami or NY working in these NFL franchises and posting on this message board?

wouldn't it have been better to try and get another head coaching job and win? Like Mike Tomlin. wouldn't that be better than bringing in lawyers. I have read the allegations and I figure out the racism. He was given the head coaching job of the Dolphins for goodness sake.

[662dawg]

I say he would be a snowflake if he was wronged and didn't sued. It takes some balls to take the NFL and that money machine.

Calling him a crybaby for suing just means you are making yourself judge and jury on the situation when you can't possibly know whether he was wronged or not. I know that I don't know, what do you know about the situation? You been in Miami or NY working in these NFL franchises and posting on this message board?

I know he wasn?t not hired because of his race. That?s what I know. The owners/GM?s are hiring the guy they think is the best man for the job regardless of their race & that?s how it should be. This is 2022 not 1822. He?s a crybaby. I?m going out on a limb & saying there?s more to the story than currently being told. However the NFL is probably to woke to call him out & will likely just settle & move on.

[Irondawg]

The Bill B text is the interesting part of this to me. How would he have a multiple day head start on the media on them hiring Dabool?

We Brian D did work for the Pats a couple a couple of times and the Giants hired their GM from Buffalo so it may have been a package deal that he somehow knew about but they had to wait to announce the HC until they completed ?interviews?.

It will be interesting to see what they can prove here or if Bill was making the same assumption everyone else did when they hired their new GM.

Regardless this seems like a incident seemingly isolated to the NYG. The Denver allegations are more odd and given that they were 3 years ago might harder to validate unless they can find a whistleblower there.

[Hot Rock]

wouldn't it have been better to try and get another head coaching job and win? Like Mike Tomlin. wouldn't that be better than bringing in lawyers. I have read the allegations and I figure out the racism. He was given the head coaching job of the Dolphins for goodness sake.
teh

If they have a case and proof of this happening systemically, then it is absolutely the right thing to do to bring a lawsuit. If they don't have a good case, then yeah, he shouldn't have sued. The lawyers he hired are the ones driving it. Do they have a legit case or are they just after the fees. I do not know.

Would have been easier to just be quite and make a good living coaching somewhere? Maybe. But maybe he was tired of the system being slanted and wanted to make a difference. If he didn't believe it, I doubt this lawsuit happens. He may not win but I bet he believes he was wronged. Was he? is the question. I for sure thought it was obvious to everyone for years the Rooney Rule had become a joke.

We know he is a good coach and he most certainly would have gotten a job somewhere even if it wasn't a HC job making a good living and may have gotten another HC shot but: Some people just can't go away quietly when they feel wronged.

[Johnson85]

teh

If they have a case and proof of this happening systemically, then it is absolutely the right thing to do to bring a lawsuit. If they don't have a good case, then yeah, he shouldn't have sued. The lawyers he hired are the ones driving it. Do they have a legit case or are they just after the fees. I do not know.

Would have been easier to just be quite and make a good living coaching somewhere? Maybe. But maybe he was tired of the system being slanted and wanted to make a difference. If he didn't believe it, I doubt this lawsuit happens. He may not win but I bet he believes he was wronged. Was he? is the question. I for sure thought it was obvious to everyone for years the Rooney Rule had become a joke.

We know he is a good coach and he most certainly would have gotten a job somewhere even if it wasn't a HC job making a good living and may have gotten another HC shot but: Some people just can't go away quietly when they feel wronged.

With respect to some people being unable to go away quietly, "whistleblowers" are almost always unlikeable people. Very rarely does being a whistleblower work out well for the whistleblower, so people that become whistleblowers are usually very disagreeable and unlikeable (or they are scammers looking for a payday). Flores seems to pretty clearly be the former. It looks like he was fired pretty much for not being the type of guy that will go along to get along. It doesn't appear that he was fired for his onfield results, which seemed reasonably promising. His only problem legally is that it doesn't look like it was race related. The racial stuff gives him a lot of leverage from a PR standpoint, but it looks like the worst thing that happened to him was he went to some sham interviews, which is demeaning, but I'm not sure gives rise to any claims. What are the damages for your name being circulated for jobs you're not actually in contention for? Judging by Sexton clients, it's a plus, not a negative.

Assuming his allegations are true, I'm not sure what legal claim being retaliated against for not tanking raises. If he was being asked to violate a law, that'd be simple. Not sure what it means to be retaliated against for not violating an NFL rule against tanking (which I assume doesn't implicate any federal or state laws).

[Pancho]

One thing is for sure and that is that he is basically Kapernicking his chances of ever coaching in the NFL again.

[Irondawg]

Chicago and Denver also just announced hiring minority DCs that are both promotions.

Going to be interesting to see if the NFL fights it in court because even if you got Flores to go away would you have copycat suits?

This could get more interesting than I originally thought and really blow up if other people try to join the suit.

[OLJWales]

Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahhaha hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah


******* man I've read some funny spin.. but that, THAT is amazing. Bravo. Top tier stupidity.

He inherited a "second place team" is such a intentionally misleading way to describe it.
Here's an article mid offseason about how the Dolphins were going full scale rebuild: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/05/dolphins-offseason-grade-free-agents-draft-picks

Now for your next point. A quarterback...UPGRADE??? Like really. You look at what Tannehill has done away from Miami, led the Titans to three straight playoff appearances and Call Ryan Fitzpatrick / Josh Rosen an UPGRADE? Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Adam Gase did good in 2016. And then proceeded to deteriorate goodwill and cratered the team. One the cusp? he went 6-10 and 7-9 his last two seasons. Including finishing 4-9 with an OT win and the only game winning multi lateral play in league history.

He then proceeded to torpedo the Jets. It was clear he's not fit to be a HC. His schtick wore thin. Meanwhile Flores finished the year 8-1. No one wanted to see those healthy Dolphins in the playoffs.

And for your last sentence, no one is saying his race got him fired. He's saying his unwillingness to tank games or skirt league rules got him fired. The Dolphins wanted him to court Brady while it was still tampering. That led to an icy relationship and departure. Miami just has shitty ownership and felt the need to fluff themselves after being panned by the media for firing a dubbed rising star like Flores after the finish the team had.

The way they described his relationship with ownership is enough to ensure he'll most likely never get a HC again.

The part where an issue of discrimination comes in is these faux interviews. The Broncos one sounds extremely egregious.

And it's comical when you look at it. The rooney rule serves to help you make a better decision. Coaches know that you HAVE to go through this process. You gain no benefit in deciding to hire the first interviewee. You only serve to hurt yourself by not conducting all your required interviews. Is it shocking that the teams named as flubbing this process (Broncos, Giants) are already searching for a coach again?

I think the Rooney Rule serves no useful purpose. Don't GM's & Owners have a good idea going in as to who they want? Why force another interview that's not going anywhere? Has one of these forced interviews ever flipped to a hire??

[Hot Rock]

I know he wasn?t not hired because of his race. That?s what I know. The owners/GM?s are hiring the guy they think is the best man for the job regardless of their race & that?s how it should be. This is 2022 not 1822. He?s a crybaby. I?m going out on a limb & saying there?s more to the story than currently being told. However the NFL is probably to woke to call him out & will likely just settle & move on.

I know this: You are wrong when you call him a crybaby. The easy thing for him to do would be to walk away. He could have gotten another job, he is a good coach. Now, maybe not and I assure you he knows the risk he is taking and was willing to do it anyway. That takes balls, not a crybaby.

The Giants may not have purposely not hired him because of race but they damn sure didn't give him or any other minority a legit interview as required by the NFL rule. So, that lawsuit may just win. Like it or not.

These are the NFL Rules put in place to give minorities a chance. They didn't have to hire him but they were expected to interview him in good faith and they didn't. The NFL as a whole has made a mockery of their own rule by allowing the Giants and others to circumvent the Rooney Rule for years. It's been a topic and anyone paying attention knew this was bound to happen at some point. Somebody would have the balls to stand up and say, this is wrong.

But but I wanted this other guy. They still could have hired him but they had to interview a minority candidate before making the hire and didn't. What were they scared of? Him interviewing well?

[Tater]

I think the Rooney Rule serves no useful purpose. Don't GM's & Owners have a good idea going in as to who they want? Why force another interview that's not going anywhere? Has one of these forced interviews ever flipped to a hire??

You're expecting this rule to solve racism and discrimination and be perfect, and if it's not then it's shit. The Rooney Rule is by no means perfect. But it's a start. And it's clear that some teams can't even do that much. And yet you think the solution is that it's not needed? Just do away with it because why? It bothers you?

Propose something better then. Stop letting perfect be the enemy of good and work to improve / replace the process instead of deprecate it.

[662dawg]

I know this: You are wrong when you call him a crybaby. The easy thing for him to do would be to walk away. He could have gotten another job, he is a good coach. Now, maybe not and I assure you he knows the risk he is taking and was willing to do it anyway. That takes balls, not a crybaby.

The Giants may not have purposely not hired him because of race but they damn sure didn't give him or any other minority a legit interview as required by the NFL rule. So, that lawsuit may just win. Like it or not.

These are the NFL Rules put in place to give minorities a chance. They didn't have to hire him but they were expected to interview him in good faith and they didn't. The NFL as a whole has made a mockery of their own rule by allowing the Giants and others to circumvent the Rooney Rule for years. It's been a topic and anyone paying attention knew this was bound to happen at some point. Somebody would have the balls to stand up and say, this is wrong.

But but I wanted this other guy. They still could have hired him but they had to interview a minority candidate before making the hire and didn't. What were they scared of? Him interviewing well?

I?m not wrong. He?s a crybaby. The teams hired the guys they wanted. He wasn?t their choice. He stomped his feet & screamed ?racism? because he wasn?t that choice. If the Rooney rule wasn?t in place then this would have never happened in the first place. The team could have just hired who they wanted to & went on about their business. I wouldn?t be surprised if these teams also interviewed other white coaches after they already knew who they were going to hire. Should they just find a reason to sue as well?

[Hot Rock]

I?m not wrong. He?s a crybaby. The teams hired the guys they wanted. He wasn?t their choice. He stomped his feet & screamed ?racism? because he wasn?t that choice. If the Rooney rule wasn?t in place then this would have never happened in the first place. The team could have just hired who they wanted to & went on about their business. I wouldn?t be surprised if these teams also interviewed other white coaches after they already knew who they were going to hire. Should they just find a reason to sue as well?

Nope you wrong. A man stands up for himself is not a crybaby. In fact, he is considered by many to be more of a man than the ones that tuck their tails and run. It those Belichick texts turn out to be true, then the Giants circumvented the rules, period. If you can't get that part then you are blinded by your prejudice.

He may lose this lawsuit but that does not mean that he doesn't have balls. In fact, if he loses he has gigantic balls because he will have sabotaged his career to get his day in court.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

Chicago and Denver also just announced hiring minority DCs that are both promotions.

Going to be interesting to see if the NFL fights it in court because even if you got Flores to go away would you have copycat suits?

This could get more interesting than I originally thought and really blow up if other people try to join the suit.

The irony of the NFL fighting with a black man in court and their "end racism" campaign is..interesting. I wonder what the next NFL woke commercial topic will be.

[662dawg]

You're expecting this rule to solve racism and discrimination and be perfect, and if it's not then it's shit. The Rooney Rule is by no means perfect. But it's a start. And it's clear that some teams can't even do that much. And yet you think the solution is that it's not needed? Just do away with it because why? It bothers you?

Propose something better then. Stop letting perfect be the enemy of good and work to improve / replace the process instead of deprecate it.

What racism?

This is the problem. You ASSUME race is a factor. Again this is 2022 not 1822.

Do you know who the most discriminated against people in the world are right now? Straight white males & black conservative free thinkers.

The perfect system is to throw the RACE card in the trash can & move on in life. It?s a classic divide & conquer tool used by Marxists. No owner in the NFL is hiring or firing anyone based on their race. It?s just not happening.

And the only racist thing about this entire topic is the Rooney rule itself. It is the purest form of racism in all of America. It states that you have to interview head coaching candidates based on their race.. not on performance, experience, potential or an owner/GM just going with their gut.

With that said, I?d be ecstatic if my Saints were to hire Mike Tomlin tomorrow & didn?t interview one white guy or anyone else for the job. Not because of his race, but because the man can coach and has had long term success.

[StarkVegasSteve]

The Rooney Rule is definitely in need of overhaul. It was a good idea 13-14 years ago when it was implemented but nowadays it seems 90% of the teams are just bringing in a minority candidate to say they did. There are a lot of minority candidates that deserve a look over some of the people that were hired last cycle. I mean do you really think Eric Bienemy or Byron Leftwich would have done worse in Jax than Urban? I?m not saying that minority coaches need to be given jobs just because of their race, but some definitely need to be given a closer look. Flores is a hell of defensive mind and he is a hell of head coach. He would be an upgrade over 5-6 current HCs.

[662dawg]

The irony of the NFL fighting with a black man in court and their "end racism" campaign is..interesting. I wonder what the next NFL woke commercial topic will be.

I also find it odd that this is happening right as black history month begins.

[662dawg]

Nope you wrong. A man stands up for himself is not a crybaby. In fact, he is considered by many to be more of a man than the ones that tuck their tails and run. It those Belichick texts turn out to be true, then the Giants circumvented the rules, period. If you can't get that part then you are blinded by your prejudice.

He may lose this lawsuit but that does not mean that he doesn't have balls. In fact, if he loses he has gigantic balls because he will have sabotaged his career to get his day in court.

I?m not prejudiced or blinded by anything. I have a black son and it would be very sensitive to me if this were a REAL case of racism. Fortunately it isn?t. It?s a crybaby kicking and screaming because he didn?t get his way. It?s just like the last 10-15 years of race hoaxes. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM have turned out to be hoaxes. Not one, but all of them have been. Stop trying to create racism where it doesn?t exist. Race pimps are the worst. Wait until race is left behind by the left & the LGBTQ community becomes the new ?Rooney rule?. It?s slowly but surely happening.

[Tater]

What racism?

This is the problem. You ASSUME race is a factor. Again this is 2022 not 1822.

Do you know who the most discriminated against people in the world are right now? Straight white males & black conservative free thinkers.

The perfect system is to throw the RACE card in the trash can & move on in life. It?s a classic divide & conquer tool used by Marxists. No owner in the NFL is hiring or firing anyone based on their race. It?s just not happening.

And the only racist thing about this entire topic is the Rooney rule itself. It is the purest form of racism in all of America. It states that you have to interview head coaching candidates based on their race.. not on performance, experience, potential or an owner/GM just going with their gut.

With that said, I?d be ecstatic if my Saints were to hire Mike Tomlin tomorrow & didn?t interview one white guy or anyone else for the job. Not because of his race, but because the man can coach and has had long term success.

Yea, we're not going down the rabbit hole of "what racism???" You can cut that shit. Most discriminated poor white man doesn't have a ducking clue give me a break. Blocked. Not arguing with you because there's no changing your mind. You don't know true discrimination until it's laying down on your neck for 8 minutes and killing you in broad daylight. And not a damn good cop to be found to stop it. Go hang out with a group of 5 minority teenagers and walk through a mall / walmart and see how security looks at you. How other people look at you. Then do it again with a group of non minority. Then tell me again how white males are the most discriminated against lmao. And if you try to frame it as a coaching thing, there's literally 1 head coach that's not a white male. Yea, no, blocked.

[Pancho]

He hired a very diverse, all white firm to represent him........... Probably couldn't convince any folk who think differently to take the case. wonder what he does in the future since he won't be an nfl coach again?

[OLJWales]

Yea, we're not going down the rabbit hole of "what racism???" You can cut that shit. Most discriminated poor white man doesn't have a ducking clue give me a break. Blocked. Not arguing with you because there's no changing your mind. You don't know true discrimination until it's laying down on your neck for 8 minutes and killing you in broad daylight. And not a damn good cop to be found to stop it. Go hang out with a group of 5 minority teenagers and walk through a mall / walmart and see how security looks at you. How other people look at you. Then do it again with a group of non minority. Then tell me again how white males are the most discriminated against lmao. And if you try to frame it as a coaching thing, there's literally 1 head coach that's not a white male. Yea, no, blocked.

You are really woke. Looking for favorable outcomes not caring about equal opportunities that exist. Wamart-NFL comparison is lame. 1 non white doesn't automatically mean racism. Your basically saying the NFL is racist which is not true and hateful.

[Pancho]

flores has been swayed into kapernicking himself and he'll look like a fool. I went to wal mart the other day and had no issues other than the dude in the parking lot..........

[R2Dawg]

It's 2022 and Owners & GM's wanna win and don't give a damn about skin color. Lack of minority HC's doesn't automatically mean racism.

True statement. Win - nothing else matters.

[R2Dawg]

Standardized tests have largely been proven to have social biases inherently prevalent in them. And are more a predictor of obedience and memory recall than they are leadership qualities. Congrats on making the opposite point that you tried to make.

Test are benign, they don't think or make judgements on skin color or where you are from. How you do on test is about how prepared you are for the test, what you know, etc.

A piece of paper can't have social bias. Surely you can't believe that?

The results may reveal some social differences but that just reveals some potential clues to root causes of that result.

[Tater]

You are really woke. Looking for favorable outcomes not caring about equal opportunities that exist. Wamart-NFL comparison is lame. 1 non white doesn't automatically mean racism. Your basically saying the NFL is racist which is not true and hateful.

You try to use work as an insult when doing so makes you seem like a jackass.

I'm not calling for equal outcomes. I'm calling for the obvious biases to stop. It's extreme arrogance to think that white males are the head of every profession based on merit. As much as I despise the guy, nick wright made an excellent point today. 35% of assistant coaches are a minority in the NFL. A vast majority of coaches played at least collegiate ball. White males are a 30% minority of players. How do those stats line up with the top guy be 95% white male? It's as ridiculous as if we would see the NHL be 90% non-white coached or the MLB have all but 1 manager be Hispanic.

You keep wanting to apply some argument I'm not making that it should be equal outcomes when I'm just pointing out that the outcomes are an indicator. What people should get is a fair shake. The Rooney rule, while it has its faults, is at least designed to give people a fair shake.

Think about it this way. The owners lose nothing from hearing out one minority person's pitch. They literally just have to hear them out. AND THEY CANT EVEN BRING THEMSELVES TO DO THAT MUCH

How do you see that and not think "well, **** the problem is even worse than imagined. they're flipping the bird at diversity and it's rules."

Instead you somehow think... the rule is the problem??? Like seriously. Think about that. Stop digging your heels in and trying to win an argument. Just ****ing think and listen to someone explain to you why you are wrong and learn.

[Tater]

Test are benign, they don't think or make judgements on skin color or where you are from. How you do on test is about how prepared you are for the test, what you know, etc.

A piece of paper can't have social bias. Surely you can't believe that?

The results may reveal some social differences but that just reveals some potential clues to root causes of that result.

You've literally been proven wrong several times over.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00256307.1981.12022238

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048546

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13613324.2015.1121474

Start there. These are people more educated than you. Trust them to do the research. You can't grasp that a "piece of paper" was decided upon by individuals in power with certain biases. And if you don't like my links, there's 1000s of other scholarly article for you to search up and read.

If you prefer an analogy. Think about it like this. There's a standardized test. It was made by a monkey to help see how smart someone it. The test was to climb up a tree and grab an apple. All the monkeys passed the test with flying colors. They are so smart. None of the fish could climb off the ground. Monkeys are clearly smarter than fish and are there because of their merit. There is no way this test could be biased because it was just a standardized test with simple instructions. How could it be biased?

[OLJWales]

You try to use work as an insult when doing so makes you seem like a jackass.

I'm not calling for equal outcomes. I'm calling for the obvious biases to stop. It's extreme arrogance to think that white males are the head of every profession based on merit. As much as I despise the guy, nick wright made an excellent point today. 35% of assistant coaches are a minority in the NFL. A vast majority of coaches played at least collegiate ball. White males are a 30% minority of players. How do those stats line up with the top guy be 95% white male? It's as ridiculous as if we would see the NHL be 90% non-white coached or the MLB have all but 1 manager be Hispanic.

You keep wanting to apply some argument I'm not making that it should be equal outcomes when I'm just pointing out that the outcomes are an indicator. What people should get is a fair shake. The Rooney rule, while it has its faults, is at least designed to give people a fair shake.

Think about it this way. The owners lose nothing from hearing out one minority person's pitch. They literally just have to hear them out. AND THEY CANT EVEN BRING THEMSELVES TO DO THAT MUCH

How do you see that and not think "well, **** the problem is even worse than imagined. they're flipping the bird at diversity and it's rules."

Instead you somehow think... the rule is the problem??? Like seriously. Think about that. Stop digging your heels in and trying to win an argument. Just ****ing think and listen to someone explain to you why you are wrong and learn.

The Rooney Rule says NFL Owners are racist and cant be trusted. I would prefer personally more black coaches but no need to be woke unless discrimination is going on. I wonder if there may be an educational gap since having played is towards the bottom of the employment application.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

You've literally been proven wrong several times over.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00256307.1981.12022238

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048546

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13613324.2015.1121474

Start there. These are people more educated than you. Trust them to do the research. You can't grasp that a "piece of paper" was decided upon by individuals in power with certain biases. And if you don't like my links, there's 1000s of other scholarly article for you to search up and read.

If you prefer an analogy. Think about it like this. There's a standardized test. It was made by a monkey to help see how smart someone it. The test was to climb up a tree and grab an apple. All the monkeys passed the test with flying colors. They are so smart. None of the fish could climb off the ground. Monkeys are clearly smarter than fish and are there because of their merit. There is no way this test could be biased because it was just a standardized test with simple instructions. How could it be biased?

So maybe the testing for cornerbacks is biased. Maybe we need a Rooney Rule to make sure white corners get a chance. Maybe we need a quota or affirmative action.

My point is that the US is 12% black. So it’s not like the league should be 50% black coaches. The best players play and the best coaches coach. If the best corners are all black, then I have no problem with it. It’s called merit.

But when the NBA is 80% black or the cornerbacks are 100% black it’s “because they deserve it.” Yet when the quarterbacks were 95% white it was “discrimination.”

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

The Rooney Rule says NFL Owners are racist and cant be trusted. I would prefer personally more black coaches but no need to be woke unless discrimination is going on. I wonder if there may be an educational gap since having played is towards the bottom of the employment application.

The Rooney Rule was CRT before CRT was cool. Is is possible for an organization to be pro affirmative action and at the same time promote themselves as an equal opportunity employer?

[Tater]

So maybe the testing for cornerbacks is biased. Maybe we need a Rooney Rule to make sure white corners get a chance. Maybe we need a quota or affirmative action.

My point is that the US is 12% black. So it’s not like the league should be 50% black coaches. The best players play and the best coaches coach. If the best corners are all black, then I have no problem with it. It’s called merit.

But when the NBA is 80% black or the cornerbacks are 100% black it’s “because they deserve it.” Yet when the quarterbacks were 95% white it was “discrimination.”

It's extremely arrogant and nonsensical to believe that white people vastly dominate positions of power disproportionately based on merit. That's what we call racial bias and having someone in that position to hire have that bias creates a self fulfilling prophecy.

[662dawg]

Yea, we're not going down the rabbit hole of "what racism???" You can cut that shit. Most discriminated poor white man doesn't have a ducking clue give me a break. Blocked. Not arguing with you because there's no changing your mind. You don't know true discrimination until it's laying down on your neck for 8 minutes and killing you in broad daylight. And not a damn good cop to be found to stop it. Go hang out with a group of 5 minority teenagers and walk through a mall / walmart and see how security looks at you. How other people look at you. Then do it again with a group of non minority. Then tell me again how white males are the most discriminated against lmao. And if you try to frame it as a coaching thing, there's literally 1 head coach that's not a white male. Yea, no, blocked.

This is a really dumb take. Especially when minority cities are burning to the ground & they?re even making theft LEGAL in many of these cities. You?re more worried about fake ?racism? than you are about minority communities that are suffering so badly right now. Crime & murder rates sky rocketing. I promise you the white man or racism or cops isn?t the problem.

I can also assure you that the 70% minority WOKE NFL isn?t discriminating against blacks either. It?s just reality, something I now know that you know nothing about. I?m not sure what world you live in but it isn?t the real world lol.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

It's extremely arrogant and nonsensical to believe that white people vastly dominate positions of power disproportionately based on merit. That's what we call racial bias and having someone in that position to hire have that bias creates a self fulfilling prophecy.

Very fair point. It’s extremely arrogant and nonsensical to believe that black people vastly dominate positions of athleticism and speed disproportionately based on merit. That’s what we call racial bias and having someone in that position to hire have that bias creates a self fulfilling prophecy.

[662dawg]

It's extremely arrogant and nonsensical to believe that white people vastly dominate positions of power disproportionately based on merit. That's what we call racial bias and having someone in that position to hire have that bias creates a self fulfilling prophecy.

But this isn?t true & just made up garbage once again. Did you know that the US black population is 12% & 11% of Congress is black? US Latino population is 18% & Congress is made up of 8.6% Latinos. Not really a big difference in the black Congress to population ratio. That?s pretty much equality for the black population, but not so much for the Latino population, although I?m not sure I?ve ever heard a Latino complain about this. Maybe they have & just missed it.

What you want is equity, not equality, which is literally a racist ideology.

Again, please join us in living in the real world.

[Tater]

Very fair point. It’s extremely arrogant and nonsensical to believe that black people vastly dominate positions of athleticism and speed disproportionately based on merit. That’s what we call racial bias and having someone in that position to hire have that bias creates a self fulfilling prophecy.

Athleticism and speed are objectively quantifiable metrics. Power is part of a social construct and not empirically measurable.

But hey, if you want to say that the NFL owners are even more racist in their view of people than I'm positing, go right ahead. Keep making the opposite point you try to make.

[Pancho]

Why are owners racist? By that logic then Wal Mart is a racist Mfer

[Coach34]

Hopefully people will wake up and realize that none of this is about "equality" but it's about "equity and control". We have equality in our country today. But alot of people dont want that. They want to control from a minority position. They want control.

[Tater]

Why are owners racist? By that logic then Wal Mart is a racist Mfer

I mean anyone who's worth billions is by no means a saint...

But no where did anyone say owners = racist. You're out in the field arguing with a scarecrow. That strawman argument ain't exist. The Giants and Broncos owners have been accused of undergoing some extremely awful behavior. Literally just one rule they can easily follow and doesn't really do much to help minorities but it's good virtue signaling. AND THEY CANT EVEN BRING THEMSELVES TO DO THAT!

[Tater]

Hopefully people will wake up and realize that none of this is about "equality" but it's about "equity and control". We have equality in our country today. But alot of people dont want that. They want to control from a minority position. They want control.

I mean... Power is everything. I wouldn't call it equity. There is no equity to be gained anymore. Zuckerberg is the last of the self made billionaires. This case is just a clear case of blatant "i'm above the rules cause i'm rich" vibes more than strictly racism vibes if we're being honest. I personally just want the Snyder emails to come out in this or Gruden's suit.

It's such a weird take for people on this board to take up and defend some of society's worst people. The ultra-wealthy (read: billion+, not someone anyone who regularly uses this board will every be) are not the ones to be defending here. And we've got two sides of the coin, a guy who made sexist / racist remarks suing the nfl for defamation and then another guy suing the league for a structure of racism. How did Gruden get so far with who he was behind closed doors with so many owners? Just stinks rotten.

[662dawg]

I mean... Power is everything. I wouldn't call it equity. There is no equity to be gained anymore. Zuckerberg is the last of the self made billionaires. This case is just a clear case of blatant "i'm above the rules cause i'm rich" vibes more than strictly racism vibes if we're being honest. I personally just want the Snyder emails to come out in this or Gruden's suit.

It's such a weird take for people on this board to take up and defend some of society's worst people. The ultra-wealthy (read: billion+, not someone anyone who regularly uses this board will every be) are not the ones to be defending here. And we've got two sides of the coin, a guy who made sexist / racist remarks suing the nfl for defamation and then another guy suing the league for a structure of racism. How did Gruden get so far with who he was behind closed doors with so many owners? Just stinks rotten.

They are absolutely some of the worst people in the world. White & Black elites. Race isn?t a factor to why they are scum of the earth nor does it factor in when they are about to make a hire that could make them a ton more money. I can assure you that they are hiring the person they feel can make them more money & they aren?t looking at the race of that person. Green is the only color they see. It?s not really debatable. Only someone who has racist vibes themselves would think otherwise.

[Pancho]

I mean anyone who's worth billions is by no means a saint...

But no where did anyone say owners = racist. You're out in the field arguing with a scarecrow. That strawman argument ain't exist. The Giants and Broncos owners have been accused of undergoing some extremely awful behavior. Literally just one rule they can easily follow and doesn't really do much to help minorities but it's good virtue signaling. AND THEY CANT EVEN BRING THEMSELVES TO DO THAT!

So what are we to do about all the employees who are asian or hispanic or white regardless of whether they work at wal mart of for the dolphins? Do they need some special treatment too? My 2 bosses were a black man and a white woman and they only cared if employees are productive. I'm waiting to see how many million Gruden wins in his suit as well since all conversations are open to the public. Flores made it to the top and I want to know was he swayed to do this now or was it all on his own.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

I mean anyone who's worth billions is by no means a saint...

But no where did anyone say owners = racist. You're out in the field arguing with a scarecrow. That strawman argument ain't exist. The Giants and Broncos owners have been accused of undergoing some extremely awful behavior. Literally just one rule they can easily follow and doesn't really do much to help minorities but it's good virtue signaling. AND THEY CANT EVEN BRING THEMSELVES TO DO THAT!


There are two scenarios. One is that the owners are racist. If so, they can’t be trusted to make decisions based upon merit. So we need a Rooney rule for coaches, office folks, scouts, and players (including kickers and cornerbacks).

The second scenario is that owners just want to win. If so, they will hire the best people regardless of race.

But Tater, you are a bigot. Because you think that in a country that is roughly 12% black, it’s conceivable that blacks could hold all 64 cornerback positions based solely on merit. Yet at the same time, the fact that 3 of 32 NFL coaches were black signifies discrimination because it couldn’t possibly be merit based. Statistically it is far more likely that all head coaches would be white rather than all cornerbacks being black. The math is clear and decisive.

[Pancho]

So if the owners aren't racist, it must be the NFL who is? Am I understanding this the proper way?

[Leroy Jenkins]

If I know the person I want to hire, why do I have to go through this dog-and-pony show of extra interviews? That system is set up to fail and be disrespectful/hurtful to the other token interview candidates. It really is amazingly stupid.

[662dawg]

So what are we to do about all the employees who are asian or hispanic or white regardless of whether they work at wal mart of for the dolphins? Do they need some special treatment too? My 2 bosses were a black man and a white woman and they only cared if employees are productive. I'm waiting to see how many million Gruden wins in his suit as well since all conversations are open to the public. Flores made it to the top and I want to know was he swayed to do this now or was it all on his own.

I?d go out on a limb and say he was swayed to do this. These types of things are always perfectly timed. Take the Jussie Smollet hoax. Just days before the idiotic anti-lynching bill hit the Congress floor. 1. Lynching isn?t a thing in the 2020?s, 2. Those MAGA country white dudes ended up being buff Nigerians 😂

Now this right at the beginning of black history month & ever since it?s been known, my ESPN app has had it front & center. I?m sure I?m just a conspiracy theorist though.

[Johnson85]

I mean anyone who's worth billions is by no means a saint...


Not sure what your definition of saint is, but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Green_(entrepreneur)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Cathy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Koch

Depending on your worldview, one or more of those should probably look pretty good to you. You could probably include Warren Buffet in their too, although I find some of the things he does odious, he seems to be pretty decent mostly.

I doubt billionaires are any better or worse than other people on average. They probably face a lot more temptation so they may err a little more, particularly when it comes to marital fidelity, but they probably stack up much better on other metrics (like likelihood to commit violence).

[OLJWales]

I mean... Power is everything. I wouldn't call it equity. There is no equity to be gained anymore. Zuckerberg is the last of the self made billionaires. This case is just a clear case of blatant "i'm above the rules cause i'm rich" vibes more than strictly racism vibes if we're being honest. I personally just want the Snyder emails to come out in this or Gruden's suit.

It's such a weird take for people on this board to take up and defend some of society's worst people. The ultra-wealthy (read: billion+, not someone anyone who regularly uses this board will every be) are not the ones to be defending here. And we've got two sides of the coin, a guy who made sexist / racist remarks suing the nfl for defamation and then another guy suing the league for a structure of racism. How did Gruden get so far with who he was behind closed doors with so many owners? Just stinks rotten.

You have a very dictatorial attitude filled with hate and division creating problems that don't exist while hiding behind a false SJW blanket.

[Johnson85]

Do you know who the most discriminated against people in the world are right now? Straight white males & black conservative free thinkers.



Not that there isn't some pretty visible animus towards those two groups from some people, but Asians are discriminated against in school admissions at pretty much every level. Conservative/libertarian blacks are really only discriminated against because of their beliefs if they are in politics plus a few highly partisan industries (hollywood, academia, "journalism", etc). And as much as the country has improved, I'm pretty sure being a straight white male on a day to day basis is a pretty good gig compared to most alternatives. Certainly run the risk of discrimination when looking at being hired or promoted at a big company and some "woke" organizations, and that is bad and wrong and should be stopped, but there are still plenty of jobs available where you won't be discriminated against and even then discrimination that people face doesn't stop them from being successful, they just don't move as far up the ladder as they otherwise might have.

[Johnson85]

You've literally been proven wrong several times over.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00256307.1981.12022238

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048546

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13613324.2015.1121474

Start there. These are people more educated than you. Trust them to do the research. You can't grasp that a "piece of paper" was decided upon by individuals in power with certain biases. And if you don't like my links, there's 1000s of other scholarly article for you to search up and read.

If you prefer an analogy. Think about it like this. There's a standardized test. It was made by a monkey to help see how smart someone it. The test was to climb up a tree and grab an apple. All the monkeys passed the test with flying colors. They are so smart. None of the fish could climb off the ground. Monkeys are clearly smarter than fish and are there because of their merit. There is no way this test could be biased because it was just a standardized test with simple instructions. How could it be biased?


You need to read the articles you are citing. The first one argues that standardized testing drives segregation of schools. WHile they claim raciacl bias in the testing, they don't prove it. It's assumed. (They are probably right about their main claim though; I think a lot of parents get concerned about a schools average test scores rather than trying to figure out how students with similar socioeconomic status as their children perform; a school that is 90% disadvantaged could look like a failing school even if the 10% non-poor knocked it out of the park, and indeed even if every child in the school performed better than average compared to other students with a similar socioeconomic status).

The second link states that higher test anxiety could contribute to the racial bias of testing. I didn't bother seeing if I could get access to the actual paper because even if there is a racial difference between the rates that people experience test anxiety, that's not really racial bias.

The last link talks about how standardized testing was used to eliminate bias in injury assessment.

There are better and worse versions of standardized testing, but standardized tests are usually trying to measure something and are validated the best they can. Some aren't really susceptible to racial bias as they pretty much rely on logic involving shapes and figures rather than language.

[Extendedcab]

I will preface this by saying I am not a wealthy person, I am upper middle class but I am not wealthy (born and raised poor) - <$5M total assets. I don't have boats, multiple expensive vehicles, multiple houses, planes, etc. I have started 4 businesses in my career and I know the struggles and the rewards for doing so.

My comments here are not for or against any person mentioned in any posts here, these are general observations of other posts only.

Some posters bother me as to blaming the rich person (rich meaning owners of medium/large businesses) for all of the worlds ills. Having money is not the problem it is the love of money or greed that is the problem and that is not race specific. You do not have to be rich or white to be greedy or love money. Look at violent crime for example (theft, armed robbery, etc.), the perps are not typically rich people. I am not exonerating the rich either as they have their own set of problems. We can't lump everybody in the same bucket regarding wealth - they are all greedy for example as that is not necessarily true. Can't a man/woman enjoy the fruit of their labor and the business risk they took to get there?

It sounds like some here blame rich people for being rich, like they have no right and they should give everything they own to the working class just because they are rich. You know the entitlement attitude.

Consider the following from the Bible (Matthew 20 1:15):


“For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius[a] a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ 5 So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?"

[Johnson85]

I know this: You are wrong when you call him a crybaby. The easy thing for him to do would be to walk away. He could have gotten another job, he is a good coach. Now, maybe not and I assure you he knows the risk he is taking and was willing to do it anyway. That takes balls, not a crybaby.

The Giants may not have purposely not hired him because of race but they damn sure didn't give him or any other minority a legit interview as required by the NFL rule. So, that lawsuit may just win. Like it or not.

These are the NFL Rules put in place to give minorities a chance. They didn't have to hire him but they were expected to interview him in good faith and they didn't. The NFL as a whole has made a mockery of their own rule by allowing the Giants and others to circumvent the Rooney Rule for years. It's been a topic and anyone paying attention knew this was bound to happen at some point. Somebody would have the balls to stand up and say, this is wrong.

But but I wanted this other guy. They still could have hired him but they had to interview a minority candidate before making the hire and didn't. What were they scared of? Him interviewing well?

I doubt them not following NFL rules gives FLores a claim of action. The league may have the ability to fine them as a contractual matter, but Flores would have to show that he was discriminated against because of his race. Pretty much all of the discussion on discrimination contemplates an adverse action, less favorable treatment, an act of harm, etc. I'm not sure getting an interview is going to be considered discrimination. Maybe if he claims a sham interview subjects him to shame and ridicule that he would have avoided if he were not a member of a protected class? Would be a different case for sure. IF he is successful, it would be interesting to see a minority that is promoted and then subsequently receives negative reviews and termination/demotion was harmed by the promotion he would not have otherwise received.

[Pancho]

Evidently Flores is just tired of being an NFL HC. He would have landed on his feet coaching another team in the future but he sure blew that chance now. It's baffling, really.

[OLJWales]

I will preface this by saying I am not a wealthy person, I am upper middle class but I am not wealthy (born and raised poor) - <$5M total assets. I don't have boats, multiple expensive vehicles, multiple houses, planes, etc. I have started 4 businesses in my career and I know the struggles and the rewards for doing so.

My comments here are not for or against any person mentioned in any posts here, these are general observations of other posts only.

Some posters bother me as to blaming the rich person (rich meaning owners of medium/large businesses) for all of the worlds ills. Having money is not the problem it is the love of money or greed that is the problem and that is not race specific. You do not have to be rich or white to be greedy or love money. Look at violent crime for example (theft, armed robbery, etc.), the perps are not typically rich people. I am not exonerating the rich either as they have their own set of problems. We can't lump everybody in the same bucket regarding wealth - they are all greedy for example as that is not necessarily true. Can't a man/woman enjoy the fruit of their labor and the business risk they took to get there?

It sounds like some here blame rich people for being rich, like they have no right and they should give everything they own to the working class just because they are rich. You know the entitlement attitude.

Consider the following from the Bible (Matthew 20 1:15):


“For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius[a] a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ 5 So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?"

Have some Rep. I've always loved that Bible. Story. Great Post.

[Tater]

There are two scenarios. One is that the owners are racist. If so, they can’t be trusted to make decisions based upon merit. So we need a Rooney rule for coaches, office folks, scouts, and players (including kickers and cornerbacks).

The second scenario is that owners just want to win. If so, they will hire the best people regardless of race.

But Tater, you are a bigot. Because you think that in a country that is roughly 12% black, it’s conceivable that blacks could hold all 64 cornerback positions based solely on merit. Yet at the same time, the fact that 3 of 32 NFL coaches were black signifies discrimination because it couldn’t possibly be merit based. Statistically it is far more likely that all head coaches would be white rather than all cornerbacks being black. The math is clear and decisive.

"There are two scenarios"

Nah bro. That's you trying to frame the argument to be right because you can't fathom a wide breadth of scenarios across a spectrum so you resort to a logical fallacy to try to win an argument.

Try again.

And you can't sit here and tell me what I think when it's so blatantly wrong. Considering I said if you wanna call corners only being black an even more indicator of racial bias, go ahead. Like... the point is that clearly there are some appalling biases. But one bias you can measure empirically. We have the combine for a reason. One bias you can't measure empirically. You can't fathom those words, so you're arguing like a simpleton instead.

[Tater]

If I know the person I want to hire, why do I have to go through this dog-and-pony show of extra interviews? That system is set up to fail and be disrespectful/hurtful to the other token interview candidates. It really is amazingly stupid.

Because it was shown that "knowing the person you want to hire" had racial bias in it so the NFL came up with a virtue signaling rule to combat it. No one is arguing that the rule works. That's not the point. The point is that it's such a small simple thing to do, AND THEY COULDNT EVEN DO IT!

[Tater]

You need to read the articles you are citing. The first one argues that standardized testing drives segregation of schools. WHile they claim raciacl bias in the testing, they don't prove it. It's assumed. (They are probably right about their main claim though; I think a lot of parents get concerned about a schools average test scores rather than trying to figure out how students with similar socioeconomic status as their children perform; a school that is 90% disadvantaged could look like a failing school even if the 10% non-poor knocked it out of the park, and indeed even if every child in the school performed better than average compared to other students with a similar socioeconomic status).

The second link states that higher test anxiety could contribute to the racial bias of testing. I didn't bother seeing if I could get access to the actual paper because even if there is a racial difference between the rates that people experience test anxiety, that's not really racial bias.

The last link talks about how standardized testing was used to eliminate bias in injury assessment.

There are better and worse versions of standardized testing, but standardized tests are usually trying to measure something and are validated the best they can. Some aren't really susceptible to racial bias as they pretty much rely on logic involving shapes and figures rather than language.

Full disclosure, i hit google for scholarly articles for standardized test racial bias. Grabbed the first three links without looking. Then moved on as I (rightly) assumed those I was arguing with in the moment wouldn't even click it. Have some rep for actually reading them and proving my point that people on here aren't actually here to have a debate, there hear to shout their opinion and be right. Anything someone they perceive as wrong is just simply wrong and there's no changing it.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Johnson85 again.

[Tater]

I will preface this by saying I am not a wealthy person, I am upper middle class but I am not wealthy (born and raised poor) - <$5M total assets. I don't have boats, multiple expensive vehicles, multiple houses, planes, etc. I have started 4 businesses in my career and I know the struggles and the rewards for doing so.

My comments here are not for or against any person mentioned in any posts here, these are general observations of other posts only.

Some posters bother me as to blaming the rich person (rich meaning owners of medium/large businesses) for all of the worlds ills. Having money is not the problem it is the love of money or greed that is the problem and that is not race specific. You do not have to be rich or white to be greedy or love money. Look at violent crime for example (theft, armed robbery, etc.), the perps are not typically rich people. I am not exonerating the rich either as they have their own set of problems. We can't lump everybody in the same bucket regarding wealth - they are all greedy for example as that is not necessarily true. Can't a man/woman enjoy the fruit of their labor and the business risk they took to get there?

It sounds like some here blame rich people for being rich, like they have no right and they should give everything they own to the working class just because they are rich. You know the entitlement attitude.

Consider the following from the Bible (Matthew 20 1:15):


?For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius[a] a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and to them he said, ?You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.? 5 So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ?Why do you stand here idle all day?? 7 They said to him, ?Because no one has hired us.? He said to them, ?You go into the vineyard too.? 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ?Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.? 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, 12 saying, ?These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.? 13 But he replied to one of them, ?Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?"

This is so ****ing hoity toity.

I'll sum it up for you simpler. Having money ain't everything, not having it is.

Ain't no one saying that you can't have nice things. But if 10 people have more wealth than over half of America and those 150,000,000+ people live paycheck to paycheck, skip meals, can't afford rent, are in mountains of debt, forego medical procedures... then those 10 people are a problem.

If you think it's entitlement to say that people deserve a roof over their head, a full belly, and help when they are sick... then call me Mr. Entitled.

And to quote the Bible after making that statement.... yeah Lucy got a nice spot for you to burn next to. How ****ing dare you take the Lord's name in vain like that.

[R2Dawg]

Not that there isn't some pretty visible animus towards those two groups from some people, but Asians are discriminated against in school admissions at pretty much every level. Conservative/libertarian blacks are really only discriminated against because of their beliefs if they are in politics plus a few highly partisan industries (hollywood, academia, "journalism", etc). And as much as the country has improved, I'm pretty sure being a straight white male on a day to day basis is a pretty good gig compared to most alternatives. Certainly run the risk of discrimination when looking at being hired or promoted at a big company and some "woke" organizations, and that is bad and wrong and should be stopped, but there are still plenty of jobs available where you won't be discriminated against and even then discrimination that people face doesn't stop them from being successful, they just don't move as far up the ladder as they otherwise might have.

I think the Asian discrimination isn't discrimination at all. It is about limiting the number of non Americans entering our University education systems and them taking the best education back to China or other country. That is a national security issue and holding your best benefits of tax dollars to those who pay it - American citizens.

It has nothing to do with discrimination or racism. This is the whole problem with profiling etc. It has nothing to do with racism. If all terrorist are Muslim but not all Muslims are terroist well guess what all Muslims are suspects. Doesn't mean there is racism or any other ism going on. Just plain common sense.

Problem is we don't have anyone using their brain today - no discernment of facts. Discernment is knowing the difference in right and almost right.

[OLJWales]

History like this is why I don't buy Woke Victimization BS.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/22/206622688/the-legacy-of-dunbar-high-school

[Pancho]

So Tater, why if Flores knows he could have been hired rather soon by another team does he resort to all this racial, i have had opportunities pulled from me rhetoric? Just good timing?

[Leroy Jenkins]

This is so ****ing hoity toity.

I'll sum it up for you simpler. Having money ain't everything, not having it is.

Ain't no one saying that you can't have nice things. But if 10 people have more wealth than over half of America and those 150,000,000+ people live paycheck to paycheck, skip meals, can't afford rent, are in mountains of debt, forego medical procedures... then those 10 people are a problem.

If you think it's entitlement to say that people deserve a roof over their head, a full belly, and help when they are sick... then call me Mr. Entitled.

And to quote the Bible after making that statement.... yeah Lucy got a nice spot for you to burn next to. How ****ing dare you take the Lord's name in vain like that.



I can take every dollar in America and put it in a big pile; then divide it up equally among each individual. In 10 years the people who are rich now will be rich again and the people who are poor now will be poor again.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Because it was shown that "knowing the person you want to hire" had racial bias in it so the NFL came up with a virtue signaling rule to combat it. No one is arguing that the rule works. That's not the point. The point is that it's such a small simple thing to do, AND THEY COULDNT EVEN DO IT!

I don't want to put words in your mouth but, are you saying that if I wanted to hire Sean McVay, Bruce Arians, Bill Bilichick, Tom Landry etc. ect..., but then Brian Flores is going to come in and interview so well that I no longer want my top guy? Because that is not going to happen. So, why have this guy sit through the BS interview and waste everyone's time so we can all feel better about opportunity.

Meritocracy is BY FAR the best way of determining success in an organization/society.

[Johnson85]

I think the Asian discrimination isn't discrimination at all. It is about limiting the number of non Americans entering our University education systems and them taking the best education back to China or other country. That is a national security issue and holding your best benefits of tax dollars to those who pay it - American citizens.

It has nothing to do with discrimination or racism. This is the whole problem with profiling etc. It has nothing to do with racism. If all terrorist are Muslim but not all Muslims are terroist well guess what all Muslims are suspects. Doesn't mean there is racism or any other ism going on. Just plain common sense.

Problem is we don't have anyone using their brain today - no discernment of facts. Discernment is knowing the difference in right and almost right.

Limiting access of Chinese nationals might be a good policy or not, but that's not what schools are doing. They are discriminating against asian americans (whether chinese, indian, whatever) because they don't want their school to be "too asian". They basically get treated the way Jewish people used to get treated by schools. And this happens not just at selective colleges but at some selective high schools, including those that are public.

[Johnson85]

This is so ****ing hoity toity.

I'll sum it up for you simpler. Having money ain't everything, not having it is.

Ain't no one saying that you can't have nice things. But if 10 people have more wealth than over half of America and those 150,000,000+ people live paycheck to paycheck, skip meals, can't afford rent, are in mountains of debt, forego medical procedures... then those 10 people are a problem.

If you think it's entitlement to say that people deserve a roof over their head, a full belly, and help when they are sick... then call me Mr. Entitled.

And to quote the Bible after making that statement.... yeah Lucy got a nice spot for you to burn next to. How ****ing dare you take the Lord's name in vain like that.

Ten people don't have more wealth than half of america. That stat I'm pretty sure you are referencing treats a first year doctor making $500k a year with no savings and $400k in debt as having -$400k of wealth. That doesn't tell you a whole lot about anything.

[Pancho]

This whole case doesn't tell much of anything due to how ridiculous it truly is.

[Leroy Jenkins]

This whole case doesn't tell much of anything due to how ridiculous it truly is.

https://c.tenor.com/dIcuGD7Sk_kAAAAS/denzel-washington-boom.gif

[HoopsDawg]

I don't want to put words in your mouth but, are you saying that if I wanted to hire Sean McVay, Bruce Arians, Bill Bilichick, Tom Landry etc. ect..., but then Brian Flores is going to come in and interview so well that I no longer want my top guy? Because that is not going to happen. So, why have this guy sit through the BS interview and waste everyone's time so we can all feel better about opportunity.

Meritocracy is BY FAR the best way of determining success in an organization/society.

The Rooney rule is not perfect. But it's probably slightly better than not having it. So maybe that's good enough.

[OLJWales]

The Rooney rule is not perfect. But it's probably slightly better than not having it. So maybe that's good enough.

Its a total waste of time, accomplishes nothing and I find it embarrassing and degrading. Of course once Woke Law Checks in, it Can Never Leave.

[662dawg]

History like this is why I don't buy Woke Victimization BS.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/22/206622688/the-legacy-of-dunbar-high-school

The WOKE are so Anti-MLK JR that it isn?t even funny. And they do not even realize it.

[662dawg]

The Rooney rule is not perfect. But it's probably slightly better than not having it. So maybe that's good enough.

The rule is literally racist. Plus it only causes MORE division, not diversity.

Let the league install a Jason Sehorn rule where you force teams to tryout at least two white cornerbacks before they can officially sign a minority one & watch how the WOKE reacts. That meltdown would actually be fun to watch 😂

[Tater]

Ten people don't have more wealth than half of america. That stat I'm pretty sure you are referencing treats a first year doctor making $500k a year with no savings and $400k in debt as having -$400k of wealth. That doesn't tell you a whole lot about anything.

I'm talking about how we're literally seeing a squeeze from the billionaire class causing the quality of living to go down. Are the numbers exaggerated? Probably, but the picture to see is that the barrier to home owner entry is rising. Inflation is disproportionately affecting poor people. The dollar worth is up 7.7% sure, but gas is way up and not coming down anytime soon. Bread is jumping up. We're seeing supply shortages. Wages aren't increasing at the minimum level. Childbirth percentage rates are dropping. 20 something's don't want kids because they can't afford it. They can't even buy houses.

Yet billionaires are reaching record highs. The stock market is a joke. Starbucks just complained about inflation and raised prices but hit record profits and cut top end execs a check while not raising wages. (And that's been a pretty industry standard wide move). Middle class is being stomped down to the poor. Rent is going up. Pretty soon serfdom will be fully back in all but name at the rates we are moving in society.

So yea... wealth hoarding is a problem. Wealth hoarders are not good people. You can afford to make less. Make less. There's no need for a pastor to have multiple mansions and a private jet. And the dude here using the Bible to justify this ridiculous greed and gluttony is quite literally the definition of taking the Lord's name in vain.

[Johnson85]

I'm talking about how we're literally seeing a squeeze from the billionaire class causing the quality of living to go down. Are the numbers exaggerated? Probably, but the picture to see is that the barrier to home owner entry is rising. Inflation is disproportionately affecting poor people. The dollar worth is up 7.7% sure, but gas is way up and not coming down anytime soon. Bread is jumping up. We're seeing supply shortages. Wages aren't increasing at the minimum level. Childbirth percentage rates are dropping. 20 something's don't want kids because they can't afford it. They can't even buy houses.

Yet billionaires are reaching record highs. The stock market is a joke. Starbucks just complained about inflation and raised prices but hit record profits and cut top end execs a check while not raising wages. (And that's been a pretty industry standard wide move). Middle class is being stomped down to the poor. Rent is going up. Pretty soon serfdom will be fully back in all but name at the rates we are moving in society. It's not billionaires driving those problems. It's not billionaires strangling the new supply of housing in desirable places. It's upper middle class and lower upper class. That's also generally the same people pushing for inflationary policies. It's largely those same people making oil and gas infrastructure investment in the US more expensive and more risky when they're not able to just prohibit it. We had increasing wages. Somewhere around half the country voted to change directions. It wasn't billionaires that did that. All that said, from a consumption standpoint, quality of life isn't going down generally ignoring the pandemic. People are consuming more while becoming less financially stable, partly because of barriers to housing growth and also because of screwed up healthcare policies, but also just because people choose to consume more.



So yea... wealth hoarding is a problem. Wealth hoarders are not good people. You can afford to make less. Make less. There's no need for a pastor to have multiple mansions and a private jet. And the dude here using the Bible to justify this ridiculous greed and gluttony is quite literally the definition of taking the Lord's name in vain.

Wealth hoarding is not really a thing. Billionaires mostly either invest their money or consume it. They don't tend to buy commodities and stick it in a vault so they can Scrooge McDuck it when they feel like it. Certainly to the extent the blow it out on consumption, it would probably be better if they consumed less (which is a good argument for a consumption tax), but that's not really moving the needle that much.

[HoopsDawg]

The rule is literally racist. Plus it only causes MORE division, not diversity.

Let the league install a Jason Sehorn rule where you force teams to tryout at least two white cornerbacks before they can officially sign a minority one & watch how the WOKE reacts. That meltdown would actually be fun to watch ��

my brain hurts after reading that. damn.

[662dawg]

my brain hurts after reading that. damn.

🤷🏼

[R2Dawg]

Limiting access of Chinese nationals might be a good policy or not, but that's not what schools are doing. They are discriminating against asian americans (whether chinese, indian, whatever) because they don't want their school to be "too asian". They basically get treated the way Jewish people used to get treated by schools. And this happens not just at selective colleges but at some selective high schools, including those that are public.

I have connections in some school systems and what you say ain't happening. Is it happening in a case here or there - sure there are exceptions for how different groups are treated everywhere.

You'll have to explain this wholesale discrimination against Asians etc. I know for a fact that certain white demographics face discrimination on a wide scale. The rules say so and match the actions. That is fact. And that is not just schools either but companies.

[R2Dawg]

I'm talking about how we're literally seeing a squeeze from the billionaire class causing the quality of living to go down. Are the numbers exaggerated? Probably, but the picture to see is that the barrier to home owner entry is rising. Inflation is disproportionately affecting poor people. The dollar worth is up 7.7% sure, but gas is way up and not coming down anytime soon. Bread is jumping up. We're seeing supply shortages. Wages aren't increasing at the minimum level. Childbirth percentage rates are dropping. 20 something's don't want kids because they can't afford it. They can't even buy houses.

Yet billionaires are reaching record highs. The stock market is a joke. Starbucks just complained about inflation and raised prices but hit record profits and cut top end execs a check while not raising wages. (And that's been a pretty industry standard wide move). Middle class is being stomped down to the poor. Rent is going up. Pretty soon serfdom will be fully back in all but name at the rates we are moving in society.

So yea... wealth hoarding is a problem. Wealth hoarders are not good people. You can afford to make less. Make less. There's no need for a pastor to have multiple mansions and a private jet. And the dude here using the Bible to justify this ridiculous greed and gluttony is quite literally the definition of taking the Lord's name in vain.

How much wealth a person has is not the litmus test for if they are good people. Has nothing to do with it. The love of money is the root of evil, not money. Money is benign. Solomon, David, Abraham, etc. were all rich people but men of God. So are many I've known today as well.

The temptation of money and what it can buy is a weakness we all have. Many poor people are more obsessed with love of money because they desire to have so much more of it. The Bible lesson is to be content in whatever you have, whether great or small. We are all just stewards of God;s money.

I do agree some CEOs making millions and millions when the common man makes a fraction seems wrong. No man in his job is worth that much but they do deserve more than those at the bottom or the organization.

[OLJWales]

I'm talking about how we're literally seeing a squeeze from the billionaire class causing the quality of living to go down. Are the numbers exaggerated? Probably, but the picture to see is that the barrier to home owner entry is rising. Inflation is disproportionately affecting poor people. The dollar worth is up 7.7% sure, but gas is way up and not coming down anytime soon. Bread is jumping up. We're seeing supply shortages. Wages aren't increasing at the minimum level. Childbirth percentage rates are dropping. 20 something's don't want kids because they can't afford it. They can't even buy houses.

Yet billionaires are reaching record highs. The stock market is a joke. Starbucks just complained about inflation and raised prices but hit record profits and cut top end execs a check while not raising wages. (And that's been a pretty industry standard wide move). Middle class is being stomped down to the poor. Rent is going up. Pretty soon serfdom will be fully back in all but name at the rates we are moving in society.

So yea... wealth hoarding is a problem. Wealth hoarders are not good people. You can afford to make less. Make less. There's no need for a pastor to have multiple mansions and a private jet. And the dude here using the Bible to justify this ridiculous greed and gluttony is quite literally the definition of taking the Lord's name in vain.

Corporations don't just throw away money for Top Notch CEO's. They all have rare operational and communication skills increasing profits FAR above their high compensation and have worked their ASSES off getting to where they are. The impact on other salaries is not worth mentioning it's so negligible. After anyone has paid their taxes they can do whatever the 17 they want with THEIR Money including Hoarding it they want to. Thinking otherwise comes from Marx cuz in RealVille we call it SAVING. Today the top 1% earn 19% of all income yet pay 22% of federal income tax. Quit Bitchin and Bullshiting. Those who save are "not good people??" Damn Dude; just Damn.

[Saltydog]

Whatever happened to "judge a man not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character"? So much for that shit, huh. It's the reason this country has gone to shit.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

The NBA just released their All-Star rosters. Everyone should take a look at the racial makeup. A white player should sue like Flores and claim racial discrimination.

[OLJWales]

Whatever happened to "judge a man not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character"? So much for that shit, huh. It's the reason this country has gone to shit.

Yep. Look at what this all black high school accomplished for years in D.C. back in the 40's & 50's. Those students were too busy getting into Ivy League Schools, Politics & Surgeons and Professors to be screaming "victims" & White Supremacy and all the bullshit excuses we see today in woke commie land.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/22/206622688/the-legacy-of-dunbar-high-school

[Tater]

Corporations don't just throw away money for Top Notch CEO's. They all have rare operational and communication skills increasing profits FAR above their high compensation and have worked their ASSES off getting to where they are. The impact on other salaries is not worth mentioning it's so negligible. After anyone has paid their taxes they can do whatever the 17 they want with THEIR Money including Hoarding it they want to. Thinking otherwise comes from Marx cuz in RealVille we call it SAVING. Today the top 1% earn 19% of all income yet pay 22% of federal income tax. Quit Bitchin and Bullshiting. Those who save are "not good people??" Damn Dude; just Damn.

If your hard work netted you $100 per hour and you saved every bit. It would take you >1,000 years to become a Billionaire. That's non stop working. Every day. 24 hours a day.

It's not hard work at that point. That's such a ****ing bs lie that you've been fed. The American dream is over. Hard work just gets you exploited.

Our economy tanked, good people lost houses, and in 2008 we blamed poor people, teachers, and immigrants. We spent trillions to save the banks. They then gave execs bonuses, did nothing to solve the problem, and now we're about to see another bubble pop.

[Tater]

Whatever happened to "judge a man not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character"? So much for that shit, huh. It's the reason this country has gone to shit.

Excuse me when has this country ever truly abided by that. We've slowly gotten better but we were never perfect. You must have missed the 80s crack epidemic that our president did nothing about. Let's Crack and AIDS run rampant because it was "killin blacks and gays". 90s were no better. 00s was rife with middle eastern distrust. Maybe it's just people are nostalgic for when Black wasn't the lowest on the totem pole in the wake of 9/11.

[Tater]

The NBA just released their All-Star rosters. Everyone should take a look at the racial makeup. A white player should sue like Flores and claim racial discrimination.

Have you ever managed anything or had any power / authority ever?

Subordinate jobs and awards are not the same as positions of authority. Until you can provide an example of a position of authority, it's coming across like you have no idea what you're talking about.



No one is suing over the racial makeup of hockey coaches. It's almost like that makes sense.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Have you ever managed anything or had any power / authority ever?

Subordinate jobs and awards are not the same as positions of authority. Until you can provide an example of a position of authority, it's coming across like you have no idea what you're talking about.



No one is suing over the racial makeup of hockey coaches. It's almost like that makes sense.

So why does “position of authority” matter? Are you saying that when jobs are “positions of authority” that we should just throw merit out the window and have quotas? That ability, capability, work ethic, etc shouldn’t be considered when hiring for “positions of authority”. That’s crazy. You are an absolute idiot.

[Cowbell]

If your hard work netted you $100 per hour and you saved every bit. It would take you >1,000 years to become a Billionaire. That's non stop working. Every day. 24 hours a day.

It's not hard work at that point. That's such a ****ing bs lie that you've been fed. The American dream is over. Hard work just gets you exploited.

Our economy tanked, good people lost houses, and in 2008 we blamed poor people, teachers, and immigrants. We spent trillions to save the banks. They then gave execs bonuses, did nothing to solve the problem, and now we're about to see another bubble pop.

I'm 34 and started with nothing in life. Both my parents were in heaven by the time I was 16 and we were poor before that. 4 of us kids. I had an MBA on college debt that I paid back. I doubled my net worth last year as an entrepreneur and am on track to be a millionaire by age 40 and I have 3 kids. The only reason people have for not being successful is their own selves. Not the government. Not inflation. Not racism. I would be in the same position if I were any other color. I grew up with nothing but good morals and a strong worth ethic. Your view on things is the reason this country has gone downhill.

[Commercecomet24]

I'm 34 and started with nothing in life. Both my parents were in heaven by the time I was 16 and we were poor before that. 4 of us kids. I had an MBA on college debt that I paid back. I doubled my net worth last year as an entrepreneur and am on track to be a millionaire by age 40 and I have 3 kids. The only reason people have for not being successful is their own selves. Not the government. Not inflation. Not racism. I would be in the same position if I were any other color. I grew up with nothing but good morals and a strong worth ethic. Your view on things is the reason this country has gone downhill.

Very well said!

[Catfish]

I'm 34 and started with nothing in life. Both my parents were in heaven by the time I was 16 and we were poor before that. 4 of us kids. I had an MBA on college debt that I paid back. I doubled my net worth last year as an entrepreneur and am on track to be a millionaire by age 40 and I have 3 kids. The only reason people have for not being successful is their own selves. Not the government. Not inflation. Not racism. I would be in the same position if I were any other color. I grew up with nothing but good morals and a strong worth ethic. Your view on things is the reason this country has gone downhill.

A lot of people just like you in this country. A good read is the life of Charles Barkley when he was young.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

I'm 34 and started with nothing in life. Both my parents were in heaven by the time I was 16 and we were poor before that. 4 of us kids. I had an MBA on college debt that I paid back. I doubled my net worth last year as an entrepreneur and am on track to be a millionaire by age 40 and I have 3 kids. The only reason people have for not being successful is their own selves. Not the government. Not inflation. Not racism. I would be in the same position if I were any other color. I grew up with nothing but good morals and a strong worth ethic. Your view on things is the reason this country has gone downhill.

Great point. I started my own business with 5 employees at 25 years old. Did it for 17 years until I sold it. Now I manage a business that has been recognized as the best in the state out of 1200 similar businesses for 7 consecutive years. It takes hard work. I have people of different races working with me, but all were hired because they could do the job.

I remember placing a proposal with the City of Jackson around 2005 for a project. They told me it was awarded to me because I had the best price and qualifications of my firm. After they realized I was white, they told me I didn’t qualify because “we aren’t giving this contract to a white person”. But life goes on. Work hard and good things come.

[Cowbell]

A lot of people just like you in this country. A good read is the life of Charles Barkley when he was young.


Yes sir. There have been a lot of hard days for all of us. All in how we respond. I will put that down to read.

[Cowbell]

Very well said!
Thanks CC - means a lot coming from a solid Christian like you

[Commercecomet24]

Thanks CC - means a lot coming from a solid Christian like you

You're very welcome. I came from humble beginnings myself and know the struggle. Hard work and desire to succeed still works. I appreciate you sharing your story.

[Vandownbytheriver]

Poor people of all races have a lot of the same struggles. It's hard as hell to break the cycle. No matter your race, sex or religion. And I'm not talking about pay check to pay check poor. I'm talking about eviction, food stamps, government assistance poor. I came from generations of that and have had to work hard for everything I've ever had and there are times in my life where I still can't break the mindset of always being poor even when I have plenty of money. Most of the people speaking about the evils of extreme wealth wouldn't last a day in section 8 housing or the local trailer park. We've just been told it's much harder for x group than y group and some of that is true, but not all. I've been that token interview and passed over for several jobs in my life and it's frustrating as hell. I've applied for jobs before in office settings and have been told I would always be a drone because of my background even with years of experience and the proper degree. It's still very much a who you know not what you know world. Being the token interview or hire will never break the Mindset of someone who's always been told they will never amount to anything. This thought process of it's my way of thinking or your wrong is what's wrong with both sides of this argument in my opinion.

[Tater]

So why does “position of authority” matter? Are you saying that when jobs are “positions of authority” that we should just throw merit out the window and have quotas? That ability, capability, work ethic, etc shouldn’t be considered when hiring for “positions of authority”. That’s crazy. You are an absolute idiot.

Positions of authority should have a closer eye on them than rank and file jobs, yes. This isn't rocket science, the people with authority control should more closely represent their general population. It's institutional racial bias to have a field that is 35% minority (NFL coaches) be dominated at the primary position of power with a 95% majority.

This shouldn't be complex or hard for you to differentiate. See a majority gain a much higher fraction of the power than their demo would have you expect DOES suggest that there is bias to believing that the majority is the only ones capable of being in power. That's why Hockey doesn't have this problem as non-diverse as it is, but the NFL is seeing it.

Wouldnt it feel weird to see manual labor job such as construction have only minority grunt labor, some token minority white hats that made up a tiny fraction of the supervisor population, and then the majority being in total control of the power structure at every turn. Does that mental image not feel... off? That's much what the NFL has become.

[Tater]

I'm 34 and started with nothing in life. Both my parents were in heaven by the time I was 16 and we were poor before that. 4 of us kids. I had an MBA on college debt that I paid back. I doubled my net worth last year as an entrepreneur and am on track to be a millionaire by age 40 and I have 3 kids. The only reason people have for not being successful is their own selves. Not the government. Not inflation. Not racism. I would be in the same position if I were any other color. I grew up with nothing but good morals and a strong worth ethic. Your view on things is the reason this country has gone downhill.

The difference between a billionaire and a millionaire is a billion dollars. I'm from similar background, only difference is one parent didn't die in the physical sense that young, but they've been disabled mentally since the other got sick and passed. I followed a similar path. But looking at the world today, the path we take is getting more difficult, not easier for those younger than us. There is a squeeze happening to the middle class. We're headed towards full on caste system a la India and a society of serfdom where your paycheck only covers your rent and food, so you work to own nothing and gain no equity.

It's expensive to be poor in this country. And the price keeps going up every day.

[Irondawg]

Depends on where you are - a lot of middle class where I am is squeezing themselves by trying to live beyond their means and it eventually catches up with them.

I?m not a fan of the chasm growing between have and have nots and really not a fan of what we?ve done to small businesses but some of that is on the consumers for prioritizing price above all else.

No singularity causes it all and there is no silver bullet either

[Tater]

Depends on where you are - a lot of middle class where I am is squeezing themselves by trying to live beyond their means and it eventually catches up with them.

I?m not a fan of the chasm growing between have and have nots and really not a fan of what we?ve done to small businesses but some of that is on the consumers for prioritizing price above all else.

No singularity causes it all and there is no silver bullet either

Rising rent, tuition, food, car, etc. Everything except wages going up in price.

Living beyond your means shouldn't be getting chastised for eating out or taking one vacation a month. Most people in this country would be financially crippled by a an overnight hospital stay. It's not the mark of a functioning society.

[Irondawg]

Saving the economic discussion for a separate thread. Meanwhile not sure Flores is not helping himself here:

On Thursday, Flores backed up those claims by saying he believes Belichick had some part in the Giants' hiring decision.
"I think there are back channel conversations and back channel meetings that are had that oftentimes influence decisions," Flores told Jay Williams on NPR?s podcast The Limits (h/t Pro Football Talk's Mike Florio). "I think [the Giants hiring process] is a clear example of that. Bill Belichick is a clear example of that. His resume speaks to that. It was clear to me that decision was made with his influence."
He continued, "That's part of the problem. That needs to change. There needs to be a fair and equal opportunity to interview and showcase your abilities to lead and earn one of those positions."

?..

Because if it comes out the Bill actually was influential in him getting hired by the Dolphins then he?s gonna look extra foolish.

This utopian job hiring process generally doesn?t exist in any setting. That?s why the phrase ?it?s not always what you know, it?s who you know? even exist and it?s really the baseline for the Rooney rule in the first place.

How Bill played any part of this seems to be a big part of his beef and there are a ton of potential scenarios at play so will be curious what comes out from his camp eventually

[Pancho]

I own 2 small businesses and the majority of my employees are white and who rent and are broke by monday when they were paid on the previous friday. They have step kids and folks just shacking up with them etc until they get behind on rent and evicted. Most usually relocate approx every 8-12 months. The common denominator is cigarettes, beer, whiskey, pot, pills, meth etc. They will miss a day of work periodically due to these factors. I have employed a few hispanics as well as some african americans but they didn't seem to enjoy working outside in the elements and said we were white devils. 2 of them are now dead and another is in parchman while one has an ankle monitor. Exactly none and I mean zero of them had any type of family structured upbringing or were taught any money management skills so take it as u will. My friend and financial advisor was raised poor like me and we ended up good friends and our only difference is that he's black and I am white and he makes more than me, so should I be jealous? We were both raised in 2 parent home and were drug to church whether we wanted to or not. Why are all the daily necessities so costly now and what can be done to alleviate cost and supply chain issues? We all need good jobs and Flores had one but he got sucked in. I say it's stupid if one lives week to week and tries a vacation a month.

[OLJWales]

If your hard work netted you $100 per hour and you saved every bit. It would take you >1,000 years to become a Billionaire. That's non stop working. Every day. 24 hours a day.

It's not hard work at that point. That's such a ****ing bs lie that you've been fed. The American dream is over. Hard work just gets you exploited.

Our economy tanked, good people lost houses, and in 2008 we blamed poor people, teachers, and immigrants. We spent trillions to save the banks. They then gave execs bonuses, did nothing to solve the problem, and now we're about to see another bubble pop.

Symbolic Bullshit. Our American system you trash improved the human condition on a global scale like no other in world history. Go beat your head against a brick wall until you accept the fact utopia only exists in heaven.

[Tater]

Symbolic Bullshit. Our American system you trash improved the human condition on a global scale like no other in world history. Go beat your head against a brick wall until you accept the fact utopia only exists in heaven.

The key word you used is improved. I'm not arguing what we did. I'm arguing what we're doing. We're not improving anymore. We're on the decline. Cant even deny that freudian slip there.

[Tater]

Saving the economic discussion for a separate thread. Meanwhile not sure Flores is helping himself here:

On Thursday, Flores backed up those claims by saying he believes Belichick had some part in the Giants' hiring decision.
"I think there are back channel conversations and back channel meetings that are had that oftentimes influence decisions," Flores told Jay Williams on NPR?s podcast The Limits (h/t Pro Football Talk's Mike Florio). "I think [the Giants hiring process] is a clear example of that. Bill Belichick is a clear example of that. His resume speaks to that. It was clear to me that decision was made with his influence."
He continued, "That's part of the problem. That needs to change. There needs to be a fair and equal opportunity to interview and showcase your abilities to lead and earn one of those positions."

?..

Because if it comes out the Bill actually was influential in him getting hired by the Dolphins then he?s gonna look extra foolish.

This utopian job hiring process generally doesn?t exist in any setting. That?s why the phrase ?it?s not always what you know, it?s who you know? even exist and it?s really the baseline for the Rooney rule in the first place.

How Bill played any part of this seems to be a big part of his beef and there are a ton of potential scenarios at play so will be curious what comes out from his camp eventually

Yea Flores did no favors for himself by talking Thursday. He should have taken the massive W in the court of public opinion, kept quiet, and let his lawyers do the dirty work.

Instead him and Hue speaking publicly are torpedoing this case. NFL is going to walk away scot free. And we're all gonna ignore the overshadowed Dan Snyder news.

[Saltydog]

Excuse me when has this country ever truly abided by that. We've slowly gotten better but we were never perfect. You must have missed the 80s crack epidemic that our president did nothing about. Let's Crack and AIDS run rampant because it was "killin blacks and gays". 90s were no better. 00s was rife with middle eastern distrust. Maybe it's just people are nostalgic for when Black wasn't the lowest on the totem pole in the wake of 9/11.

Rolls eyes. And tell me who is "perfect" because if it exists on this planet I've yet to see it. Nonetheless, you sir have a true "victim" mentality. Sometime you just have to take some personal accountability and quit blaming others or you can sit there and wallow in self pity. I can promise you that one of these will lead to better results than the other but I'll let you decide.

[Johnson85]

If your hard work netted you $100 per hour and you saved every bit. It would take you >1,000 years to become a Billionaire. That's non stop working. Every day. 24 hours a day.

It's not hard work at that point. That's such a ****ing bs lie that you've been fed. The American dream is over. Hard work just gets you exploited.
.

You are letting your bitterness and envy affect your judgement. Most billionaires did work for a long time starting their own business and onlly had wealth on paper for a long time before they really got to enjoy the fruits of their labor. There are more exceptions to this now with tech and finance, but even they mostly don't get rich by exploiting other people. They get rich by providing something people want, and are lucky enough to do it first in an areas that is more or less winner take all, where you get outsized gains for being first (either in time or in quality).


Our economy tanked, good people lost houses, and in 2008 we blamed poor people, teachers, and immigrants. We spent trillions to save the banks. They then gave execs bonuses, did nothing to solve the problem, and now we're about to see another bubble pop.

In 2008, pretty much nobody blamed poor people, teachers, and immigrants. They blamed either banks or government policy. There was relatively little blame placed on the people actually taking NINJA loans. There were people that got to live in $500k homes with no downpayment and get to walk away with nothing but a foreclosure on their credit report after living in homes for months and in some cases years without making payments, and even they didn't really get blamed. Even though their acts left other people taking six figure losses that they could not walk away from, there was no blame for them.

[Tater]

Rolls eyes. And tell me who is "perfect" because if it exists on this planet I've yet to see it. Nonetheless, you sir have a true "victim" mentality. Sometime you just have to take some personal accountability and quit blaming others or you can sit there and wallow in self pity. I can promise you that one of these will lead to better results than the other but I'll let you decide.

You're the one saying this country went to shit like it hasn't been bad in regards to racial discourse since it's inception. When were we ever not "shit"? I'll hang up and lissen

[Johnson85]

Rising rent, tuition, food, car, etc. Everything except wages going up in price.

Living beyond your means shouldn't be getting chastised for eating out or taking one vacation a month. Most people in this country would be financially crippled by a an overnight hospital stay. It's not the mark of a functioning society.

This is bat shit crazy. I know some pretty affluent people and I'm not even sure I can come up with somebody that takes more than 6 vacations a year. We went years without vacations growing up. I consider myself extremely fortunate now, and only take "real" vacations every two or three years, and mostly just do long weekend type vacations, and I still don't even take 6 of them over the course of the year, much less twelve of them.

ETA: Also, eating out regularly is a luxury. I am sympathetic to the ways our government policies have made certain things unnecessarily expensive and of lower quality than they should be. But if you are eating out lunch 5 days a week (and a lot of people I have worked with at different jobs have), you can't be doing too badly.

[Tater]

This is bat shit crazy. I know some pretty affluent people and I'm not even sure I can come up with somebody that takes more than 6 vacations a year. We went years without vacations growing up. I consider myself extremely fortunate now, and only take "real" vacations every two or three years, and mostly just do long weekend type vacations, and I still don't even take 6 of them over the course of the year, much less twelve of them.

it's batshit crazy to think you can't take a weekend vacation a month or you're living beyond your means. i'm not talking extravagant, multi week. i'm talking packing up the family and spending two days a couple states over. i'm talking being able to go to state football games every month when you live more than 4 hours away. it's really not a ridiculous quality of life to ask for.

[Johnson85]

it's batshit crazy to think you can't take a weekend vacation a month or you're living beyond your means. i'm not talking extravagant, multi week. i'm talking packing up the family and spending two days a couple states over. i'm talking being able to go to state football games every month when you live more than 4 hours away. it's really not a ridiculous quality of life to ask for.

It's batshit crazy to think a weekend vacation a month is an entitlement or else society is dysfunctional. If you really care about travel and want to devote 5% of your income to it (probably twice as high a percentage as the average budget) and make Mississippi's median income of $45,000, that's about $2,250 a year. That's not a ton, but that's enough for a decent week vacation or several small vacations. I'd love for the median income family to be able to have more consumption, but I don't know where the expectation comes from. Outside of families that do a lot of primitive camping, has it ever been common to take a weekend trip every month for anybody but the very affluent?

[OLJWales]

The key word you used is improved. I'm not arguing what we did. I'm arguing what we're doing. We're not improving anymore. We're on the decline. Cant even deny that freudian slip there.

Why so many success stories with all black high schools in the past? Did leftist governance Play a part in the decline or racism?

[Coach34]

Why so many success stories with all black high schools in the past? Did leftist governance Play a part in the decline or racism?

Democrat policies have destroyed the black community. In 1965, you had about 75% of black homes with 2 parents. Today? 25%.

[662dawg]

Democrat policies have destroyed the black community. In 1965, you had about 75% of black homes with 2 parents. Today? 25%.

No sane person can disagree with this. There is no debate to why democrat led cities have become sh*t holes. Their policies are ruining America?s inner cities & now they?re trying to ruin America. Stolen elections have major consequences.

[Pancho]

We have such a quitter mentality and only the truly strong willed will survive what is being done to us.

[OLJWales]

Without "abused victims" needing government "protection" from the "evil racist oppressors", today's dem party wouldn't have a shot. A self sufficient society is NOT their goal. They feed off fake news to create fake panics to point more government guns at We the People.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Positions of authority should have a closer eye on them than rank and file jobs, yes. This isn't rocket science, the people with authority control should more closely represent their general population. It's institutional racial bias to have a field that is 35% minority (NFL coaches) be dominated at the primary position of power with a 95% majority.

This shouldn't be complex or hard for you to differentiate. See a majority gain a much higher fraction of the power than their demo would have you expect DOES suggest that there is bias to believing that the majority is the only ones capable of being in power. That's why Hockey doesn't have this problem as non-diverse as it is, but the NFL is seeing it.

Wouldnt it feel weird to see manual labor job such as construction have only minority grunt labor, some token minority white hats that made up a tiny fraction of the supervisor population, and then the majority being in total control of the power structure at every turn. Does that mental image not feel... off? That's much what the NFL has become.

You say "people with authority control should more closely represent their general population." I disagree. I think "people with authority control" should be chosen based upon ability to perform their job well, qualifications, merit, etc.