OT: BBWA once again shows their ass

[Tater]

Ortiz getting in but Bonds not. Guess if Barry had a career w 1 more failed drug test, 7 less MVPs, 8 less gold gloves, 5 less silver sluggers, 220 less homers, 500 less hits, an OPS+ 41 points lower and an rWAR 107.4 lower he coulda been a 1st ballot hall of famer.

If you're gonna put one in, put them all in. Especially when you put in a guy like Ortiz 1st ballot who is absolutely a 2nd ballot guy. What a joke.

[HoopsDawg]

good point on Ortiz, but Bonds went a little crazy with the roids. He went up like 3 hat sizes.

[parabrave]

Poppy was also a fan and media darling and was better of hiding any "illegal" enhancing substances than Bonds or Sosa. I'm glad he did get in.

[Tater]

good point on Ortiz, but Bonds went a little crazy with the roids. He went up like 3 hat sizes.

ortiz tested positive. same as rafi. if you put one in, all should go in. it was the era and you have to respect it.

bonds is a part of baseball history. you can't tell the story without him. put him in.

[HoopsDawg]

Poppy was also a fan and media darling and was better of hiding any "illegal" enhancing substances than Bonds or Sosa. I'm glad he did get in.

Papi's body and head size didn't change as much as Bonds. Bonds was 185 for 7 years of his MLB career then all of the sudden was 206.

[HoopsDawg]

ortiz tested positive. same as rafi. if you put one in, all should go in. it was the era and you have to respect it.

bonds is a part of baseball history. you can't tell the story without him. put him in.

Fair or not, when I think of steriod era the first person I think of is Barry Bonds. Followed by McGuire, Sosa, A-Rod, Clemons and Palmero.

[Tater]

Problem is Bonds did nothing against the rules and MLB ignored and profited off of it. Bud Selig being in means all of them get in. This silly PED moniker is a joke. You can't tell the story of baseball without Barry Bonds. He's the home run king. The game tarnished itself. The HoF should reflect the game.

[R2Dawg]

ortiz tested positive. same as rafi. if you put one in, all should go in. it was the era and you have to respect it.

bonds is a part of baseball history. you can't tell the story without him. put him in.

Agree, MLB has become a joke.

[Commercecomet24]

Agree, MLB has become a joke.

Haven't pretty much all professional sports(and now some college sports) become a joke?

[Quaoarsking]

Haven't pretty much all professional sports(and now some college sports) become a joke?

Hasn't every sports fan for the last 150 years asked this question upon reaching a certain age?

[Commercecomet24]

Hasn't every sports fan for the last 150 years asked this question upon reaching a certain age?

You are correct sir! Exactly the point I was making.

[Saltydog]

Ortiz getting in but Bonds not. Guess if Barry had a career w 1 more failed drug test, 7 less MVPs, 8 less gold gloves, 5 less silver sluggers, 220 less homers, 500 less hits, an OPS+ 41 points lower and an rWAR 107.4 lower he coulda been a 1st ballot hall of famer.

If you're gonna put one in, put them all in. Especially when you put in a guy like Ortiz 1st ballot who is absolutely a 2nd ballot guy. What a joke.

Don?t get me wrong I like Pappi but the failed screen in itself should disqualify him! Media darling or not he was juiced! Just makes no sense! Like you said Tater, either let them all in or none and yes that includes Raffy!

[Tater]

Haven't pretty much all professional sports(and now some college sports) become a joke?

As more money has poured in, there's been more emphasis on the Lakers playing the Lakers in the championship every year. I know this shit is partially entertainment but damn sometimes I just wish it could be pure sport.

[Commercecomet24]

As more money has poured in, there's been more emphasis on the Lakers playing the Lakers in the championship every year. I know this shit is partially entertainment but damn sometimes I just wish it could be pure sport.

I hear ya! It's why I watch a lot of d2 football and college and hs baseball. They're still semi pure. You wanna have some real enjoyment(minus the crazy moms and aunts) go watch some coach pitch baseball, it's some great entertainment with kids just having a blast.

[R2Dawg]

Haven't pretty much all professional sports(and now some college sports) become a joke?

Yes true, guess I was speaking to the subject of thread - MLB HOF.

But yes pro sports and college on the same trajectory of being a joke.

[Tater]

I hear ya! It's why I watch a lot of d2 football and college and hs baseball. They're still semi pure. You wanna have some real enjoyment(minus the crazy moms and aunts) go watch some coach pitch baseball, it's some great entertainment with kids just having a blast.

I've umpired enough t-ball (one game) that I'll stick to babe ruth. 13+ is pure sport with minimal parent annoyance.

[Commercecomet24]

Yes true, guess I was speaking to the subject of thread - MLB HOF.

But yes pro sports and college on the same trajectory of being a joke.

I gotcha. Agree with you on that.

[Commercecomet24]

I've umpired enough t-ball (one game) that I'll stick to babe ruth. 13+ is pure sport with minimal parent annoyance.

Yeah after about 12 the Parents quit coming to the games. I coached showcase/travel ball for 20+ years and 13-14 was my favorite age group but that 7-8 coach pitch is fun as heck to watch.

[Todd4State]

Papi's body and head size didn't change as much as Bonds. Bonds was 185 for 7 years of his MLB career then all of the sudden was 206.

You're really basing whether a player should be a HOF on head size? Bonds was likely a HOF before he got into steroids.

I got news for the media- so many guys were using steroids it basically leveled the playing field.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

And Curt Shilling’s vote total was absolutely hurt because of his politics.

[Tbonewannabe]

You're really basing whether a player should be a HOF on head size? Bonds was likely a HOF before he got into steroids.

I got news for the media- so many guys were using steroids it basically leveled the playing field.

Exactly. Raffy's "failed test" made him the sacrificial goat to show that MLB was serious. They point to that and don't say anything about him testing clean less than 3 weeks later. A habitual user doesn't test clean unless they are doing something to beat the test. There are instances where guys tested positive 6 months after even though they quit using roids.

[Tater]

And Curt Shilling?s vote total was absolutely hurt because of his politics.

Nah he was at 71% last year and then came out and told BBWA to **** off. That he didn't want their HoF if they were going to drag it out.

He would have gotten in this year had he not said that. His politics been known before that.

[Extendedcab]

Haven't pretty much all professional sports(and now some college sports) become a joke?

Yes they have - and yes I am over 60. :D

[Dak Holliday]

Hall of FAME. If you were a player that transcended the sport to the point where your accomplishments made you well known to foreigners, outside markets, and the average everyday American, you are a part and deserving of your place.
Delving into closets looking for skeletons doesn?t bode well for most already enshrined. One could easily argue that drug/alcohol abuse, child/spousal abuse, and sexual misconduct are all as bad or most are worse than using performance enhancing drugs or gambling. The HOF is full of guys worshipped by many for being good people. Many were not. All were great players, but lots weren?t remotely good men. It?s Hall of Fame, not Hall of Honor or Hall of Heroes.

[BrunswickDawg]

Hall of FAME. If you were a player that transcended the sport to the point where your accomplishments made you well known to foreigners, outside markets, and the average everyday American, you are a part and deserving of your place.
Delving into closets looking for skeletons doesn?t bode well for most already enshrined. One could easily argue that drug/alcohol abuse, child/spousal abuse, and sexual misconduct are all as bad or most are worse than using performance enhancing drugs or gambling. The HOF is full of guys worshipped by many for being good people. Many were not. All were great players, but lots weren?t remotely good men. It?s Hall of Fame, not Hall of Honor or Hall of Heroes.

Ok - so based on that Big Papi is a HOF. The guy was so popular and well known, Kennan Thompson was still doing bits impersonating him a late as 2020.

[Quaoarsking]

Nah he was at 71% last year and then came out and told BBWA to **** off. That he didn't want their HoF if they were going to drag it out.

He would have gotten in this year had he not said that. His politics been known before that.

Correct. Mariano Rivera and Chipper Jones have the same politics and outspokenness. Schilling has always had an icy relationship with the baseball journalists. Despite that, he would've gotten in this year had he not asked writers not to vote for him.

[Lord McBuckethead]

And Curt Shilling?s vote total was absolutely hurt because of his politics.

Well to be honest, there is politics and then there was what Curt Shilling was up to. I can't exactly remember what he was saying, but at the time I was like.... yeah that shit doesnt' need to be said out loud there bud.

[Saltydog]

I think we all know that Raffy will never get in but think about this for a second, he tested positive in 2005 (his last year). So yeah, we know he was hot then but what about the 19 years prior to that. We don't know that he was juiced then. Sure, it's reasonable to think he may have been but it's certainly not proven. If you take away that one year, his numbers are still HOF worthy.

[Matt3467]

Problem is Bonds did nothing against the rules and MLB ignored and profited off of it. Bud Selig being in means all of them get in. This silly PED moniker is a joke. You can't tell the story of baseball without Barry Bonds. He's the home run king. The game tarnished itself. The HoF should reflect the game.

I agree with the first sentence good or not but while the second is factually true I'll never see him as the true home run king. Bonds played in 483 more games, had 1,980 more at-bats, and abused the advantage steroids give. Bonds was a HOF without the roids. I don't feel sorry for him.

Edit: The numbers were in reference to Ruth in case of confusion.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Nah he was at 71% last year and then came out and told BBWA to **** off. That he didn't want their HoF if they were going to drag it out.

He would have gotten in this year had he not said that. His politics been known before that.

I didn't say anything about him getting in, or not getting in. I said his politics hurt his vote total. And I'm correct.

[The Federalist Engineer]

The Rodger Clemens situation is the one that is most curious to me.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/01/26/baseball-hall-of-fame-roger-clemens-not-elected

That said, he made $150M in his baseball career. Had huge thrills playing a game many people only wish they could play professionally. The fans respect him, the writers don't, but who likes or respects the writers? We watch games now, people don't need baseball writers anymore. Should ONLY be a Player ballot anyway, not writers.

[Catfish]

The Rodger Clemens situation is the one that is most curious to me.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/01/26/baseball-hall-of-fame-roger-clemens-not-elected

That said, he made $150M in his baseball career. Had huge thrills playing a game many people only wish they could play professionally. The fans respect him, the writers don't, but who likes or respects the writers? We watch games now, people don't need baseball writers anymore. Should ONLY be a Player ballot anyway, not writers.

This! It's time for the writers to give it up. Current HOF players should decide who gets in.

[Commercecomet24]

This! It's time for the writers to give it up. Current HOF players should decide who gets in.

Yeah the writers making HOF selection is ridiculous. It should fall to current HOF players and management. Let them vote on them. I don't like Barry Bonds at all but the man one of the greatest if not the greatest hitters of all time. Players have been using PEDs forever, from "greenies" and other drugs starting in the 50s and beyond to the steroid era and baseball looked the other way. I have no qualms if their peers select them for HOF induction. Now on the subject of Pete Rose, loved the way the guy played but he broke the cardinal rule of baseball and then lied his butt off about it. No apologies from the man and thumbing his nose at the game just shows no remorse to me. I have no problem giving people second chances and I wholeheartedly believe in redemption but the offending party has to show contrition before that can happen and Pete simply hasn't done it, just my 2 cents which doesn't mean much lol

[Catfish]

Yeah the writers making HOF selection is ridiculous. It should fall to current HOF players and management. Let them vote on them. I don't like Barry Bonds at all but the man one of the greatest if not the greatest hitters of all time. Players have been using PEDs forever, from "greenies" and other drugs starting in the 50s and beyond to the steroid era and baseball looked the other way. I have no qualms if their peers select them for HOF induction. Now on the subject of Pete Rose, loved the way the guy played but he broke the cardinal rule of baseball and then lied his butt off about it. No apologies from the man and thumbing his nose at the game just shows no remorse to me. I have no problem giving people second chances and I wholeheartedly believe in redemption but the offending party has to show contrition before that can happen and Pete simply hasn't done it, just my 2 cents which doesn't mean much lol

Good post and I agree. The writers have total control as to who gets in the HOF for a number of years. Their bias towards a player should never reflect his entry into the HOF. I'm not a Curt Schilling fan, but he shouldn't be judged on his political beliefs, and that's exactly what happened with him. He should be judged on his performance on the field. This is about baseball not a player's political or religious affiliation.

[Commercecomet24]

Good post and I agree. The writers have total control as to who gets in the HOF for a number of years. Their bias towards a player should never reflect his entry into the HOF. I'm not a Curt Schilling fan, but he shouldn't be judged on his political beliefs, and that's exactly what happened with him. He should be judged on his performance on the field. This is about baseball not a player's political or religious affiliation.

Amen to that!

[Tbonewannabe]

Yeah the writers making HOF selection is ridiculous. It should fall to current HOF players and management. Let them vote on them. I don't like Barry Bonds at all but the man one of the greatest if not the greatest hitters of all time. Players have been using PEDs forever, from "greenies" and other drugs starting in the 50s and beyond to the steroid era and baseball looked the other way. I have no qualms if their peers select them for HOF induction. Now on the subject of Pete Rose, loved the way the guy played but he broke the cardinal rule of baseball and then lied his butt off about it. No apologies from the man and thumbing his nose at the game just shows no remorse to me. I have no problem giving people second chances and I wholeheartedly believe in redemption but the offending party has to show contrition before that can happen and Pete simply hasn't done it, just my 2 cents which doesn't mean much lol

I feel like Pete will get in posthumously. He doesn't deserve to reap the benefits of getting in the Hall but does deserve to be in from what he did on the field.

[Hot Rock]

I don't see Pete or Bonds getting in. Both did the unthinkable. One bet on baseball and it has come out lately that sometimes he bet against his own team when he was the manager.

Bonds sin? Cheated to get the homerun title. He may not have even reached 500 and certainly not 600HR without the roids. Hank is still the legit homerun king, no way Bonds deserves that title.

Bonds admitted starting to use in 97. His career was lengthened and he averaged 52 HRs a year until 2005 and before he only averaged 34. He would most likely have been out of baseball without the juice years before he got the title. Instead he gets another 59 home runs his last three years. That's at least 200 fewer HR's he would have hit without the juice and maybe more with a shorter career.

Hank hit 755 HR's clean and had 3298 hits to Bonds 2986. Bonds is no where near the home run king in my book.

[Hot Rock]

Sure Hank hit HR at a lower rate but he hit more of them.

Babe Ruth hit HR at a higher rate than either Bonds or Hank but his first 3-4 years, he pitched. Imagine if he had played another four years hitting 25-30 a year. His first season as a full time hitter, he hit 29 HR.

Neither Bonds or Hank would have caught him but they did catch him so Hank is the king. Steroid use gets you disqualified from being the king of anything except maybe Wrestling.

It was a different era. Some say pitching wasn't as good and others say the ball was softer and didn't fly as easily. All I know is Ruth was so much better than everyone of his era, he didn't need roids to prove anything. His diet was hot dogs and beer.

[Tater]

Bonds has more total HRs period. That makes him the HR King. You can't erase that stat no matter how much you want. Bonds played against steroid users all around too. I can throw out that Bonds walked 500 more times than Ruth and 1100 more time than Aaron.

Bonds also got blackballed at the end of his career. He led the league with .480 OBP and had 28 bombs his final season. Then the MLB colluded to not sign him. Given a normal end to his career, he would have easily eclipsed 800 HRs. All while he had a career OBP of .444.

In the constraints of the rules, Barry Bonds is the greatest offensive threat of all time. By every measure you can cook up fairly.

[SPMT]

Papi's body and head size didn't change as much as Bonds. Bonds was 185 for 7 years of his MLB career then all of the sudden was 206.


I have yet to see proof of a hat size change, just internet nonsense. Also, going from 185 to 206 is nothing. Furthermore, are you basing his weight on his "baseball card" stats? Those are never right. Neither are most wiki weight stats, or internet weight listings.

The bottom line is the Bonds was the best hitter ever and he should most definitely be in the HOF as should Clemens. It's a complete joke.

[SPMT]

Bonds has more total HRs period. That makes him the HR King. You can't erase that stat no matter how much you want. Bonds played against steroid users all around too. I can throw out that Bonds walked 500 more times than Ruth and 1100 more time than Aaron.

Bonds also got blackballed at the end of his career. He led the league with .480 OBP and had 28 bombs his final season. Then the MLB colluded to not sign him. Given a normal end to his career, he would have easily eclipsed 800 HRs. All while he had a career OBP of .444.

In the constraints of the rules, Barry Bonds is the greatest offensive threat of all time. By every measure you can cook up fairly.

He's the best hitter ever. No doubt.

Like you say, all were loaded, including some already in the HOF.

[SPMT]

Bonds hit 28 at age 42 and struck out 54 times! While being tested and investigated. We all know he wasn't loaded then.

We all know he saw some lesser players breaking records and he said watch this, i'll do the same shit and show you what I can do.

[Dak Holliday]

He's the best hitter ever. No doubt.

Like you say, all were loaded, including some already in the HOF.

Best ?power? hitter. Mr Padre was the best all around hitter.
- in the modern era atleast

[Commercecomet24]

Best ?power? hitter. Mr Padre was the best all around hitter.

I'm gonna say the title of best all around hitter goes to Ted Williams and if he hadnt missed 4 years of his prime due to military service no telling what his stats would look like.

[Dak Holliday]

I'm gonna say the title of best all around hitter goes to Ted Williams and if he hadnt missed 4 years of his prime due to military service no telling what his stats would look like.

Agree. It?s why I edited to add the caveat- in the modern era. Still, if you look at how difficult it was to strike Gwynn out, it?s staggering to think about. Averaged like 22 strike outs a year for his 20 season career. He had more 4 hit games than multiple strikeout games, I believe. He was a hitting machine against some all time great pitchers.

"Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different release points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcher?s hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision. Except for that (expletive) Tony Gwynn." -Greg Maddux

[Dak Holliday]

https://www.mlb.com/news/19-facts-about-the-career-of-tony-gwynn-c177069734

[Commercecomet24]

Agree. It?s why I edited to add the caveat- in the modern era. Still, if you look at how difficult it was to strike Gwynn out, it?s staggering to think about. Averaged like 22 strike outs a year for his 20 season career. He had more 4 hit games than multiple strikeout games, I believe. He was a hitting machine against some all time great pitchers.

Gotcha. Sorry I didn't see the edit. Teddy Ballgame didn't strike out very much either and considering he was a power hitter even more impressive. He averaged 37 strikeouts per season and the year he hit 406 he struckout 27 times that's insane! He was the best and knew more about hitting than anyone.

Ted was the complete hitter. High average, power, didn't strikeout much, walked a lot. Crazy what he was able to do.

[Dak Holliday]

Gotcha. Sorry I didn't see the edit. Teddy Ballgame didn't strike out very much either and considering he was a power hitter even more impressive. He averaged 37 strikeouts per season and the year he hit 406 he struckout 27 times that's insane! He was the best and knew more about hitting than anyone.

Ted was the complete hitter. High average, power, didn't strikeout much, walked a lot. Crazy what he was able to do.

He was well before my time, but still highly regarded. One of the most impressive videos I?ve ever seen of someone hitting was of him. Ball had 4 numbers on it. Bat had dye of some sort. He would hit the pitched ball and tell them what number he hit, and when they checked, he was right. The ink proved him true. It was awesome.

Of course, he and Gwynn were said to be great friends and Tony always said Ted was the greatest. Gwynn was so unbelievably good, though.

[Commercecomet24]

He was well before my time, but still highly regarded. One of the most impressive videos I?ve ever seen of someone hitting was of him. Ball had 4 numbers on it. Bat had dye of some sort. He would hit the pitched ball and tell them what number he hit, and when they checked, he was right. The ink proved him true. It was awesome.

When he was a manager of the senators so the story goes one day in spring training he chalked his bat and told his players he could tell them which seam on the ball he hit as he took bp. Sure enough he would hit and call out the seam and they'd check the ball and he was right. Dude had crazy eye sight.

[Commercecomet24]

He was well before my time, but still highly regarded. One of the most impressive videos I?ve ever seen of someone hitting was of him. Ball had 4 numbers on it. Bat had dye of some sort. He would hit the pitched ball and tell them what number he hit, and when they checked, he was right. The ink proved him true. It was awesome.

Of course, he and Gwynn were said to be great friends and Tony always said Ted was the greatest. Gwynn was so unbelievably good, though.

Yeah when they opened the hitters hof in Florida Espn classic broadcast it and watching Gwynn and Williams talk hitting was amazing. Gwynn was in awe of him. 2 of the best ever!

[Dak Holliday]

Yeah when they opened the hitters hof in Florida Espn classic broadcast it and watching Gwynn and Williams talk hitting was amazing. Gwynn was in awe of him. 2 of the best ever!

100%

[Todd4State]

Sure Hank hit HR at a lower rate but he hit more of them.

Babe Ruth hit HR at a higher rate than either Bonds or Hank but his first 3-4 years, he pitched. Imagine if he had played another four years hitting 25-30 a year. His first season as a full time hitter, he hit 29 HR.

Neither Bonds or Hank would have caught him but they did catch him so Hank is the king. Steroid use gets you disqualified from being the king of anything except maybe Wrestling.

It was a different era. Some say pitching wasn't as good and others say the ball was softer and didn't fly as easily. All I know is Ruth was so much better than everyone of his era, he didn't need roids to prove anything. His diet was hot dogs and beer.

Context in each era matters. This is part of the problem with the writers. They rely on stats too much and they want stats to be the same across the board. Why? Because they truly don't understand the game and the talent of those who play it. Hence a guy like Don Sutton is automatically in because "Well, he won 300 games". And he should be in. My point is the writers rely way too much on the "magic numbers" 300 wins, 3K strikeouts, 500 home runs, 3K hits, and etc.

At the same time Sandy Koufax is the best pitcher I have ever seen. Period. But because he only played 12 years and then retired at 30 he was only able to get 150 wins, and about 24K strike outs. But he is a no doubt HOF player. I'm 100% sure that there were people who didn't vote for him because his career was "too short".

You can't compare Bonds and Aaron to Ruth. Different eras. Ruth outhomered entire TEAMS. He basically invented tape measure home runs. If he played today he would be Shohei Ohtani with Mark McGwire power and would probably be a front line starter. There were different rules and bigger ball parks. If you hit the foul pole in Ruth's day it was ruled a foul ball. Someone went back and adjusted what Ruth would have done in 1990's/2000's baseball conditions with the current rules for that time and found that he would have hit 104 home runs one season when I think he only hit 54 that season.

[Todd4State]

Bonds has more total HRs period. That makes him the HR King. You can't erase that stat no matter how much you want. Bonds played against steroid users all around too. I can throw out that Bonds walked 500 more times than Ruth and 1100 more time than Aaron.

Bonds also got blackballed at the end of his career. He led the league with .480 OBP and had 28 bombs his final season. Then the MLB colluded to not sign him. Given a normal end to his career, he would have easily eclipsed 800 HRs. All while he had a career OBP of .444.

In the constraints of the rules, Barry Bonds is the greatest offensive threat of all time. By every measure you can cook up fairly.

That's not entirely true. He was an older player who was essentially a DH only at that time and wanted a ton of money and would have been a major distraction. He wasn't a fit for any MLB team. It's similar to Albert Pujols now and why he will have trouble finding a team. Minus the major distraction part.

Believe me- if he was blackballed from MLB he wouldn't have been able to come back as a hitting coach for the Marlins.

[Todd4State]

Gotcha. Sorry I didn't see the edit. Teddy Ballgame didn't strike out very much either and considering he was a power hitter even more impressive. He averaged 37 strikeouts per season and the year he hit 406 he struckout 27 times that's insane! He was the best and knew more about hitting than anyone.

Ted was the complete hitter. High average, power, didn't strikeout much, walked a lot. Crazy what he was able to do.

Williams is another example of why stats need context. Of course with him it's because of his military service.

[Commercecomet24]

Williams is another example of why stats need context. Of course with him it's because of his military service.

Exactly. You have to compare players against the era they played in. Every era is different whether it's the dead ball era, live ball era, era before the mound was lowered by 6 inches, steroid era, etc. Its why the players need to do the voting not the dang writers.

[Tater]

That's not entirely true. He was an older player who was essentially a DH only at that time and wanted a ton of money and would have been a major distraction. He wasn't a fit for any MLB team. It's similar to Albert Pujols now and why he will have trouble finding a team. Minus the major distraction part.

Believe me- if he was blackballed from MLB he wouldn't have been able to come back as a hitting coach for the Marlins.

They hired him 8 years later. He was blackballed 100% from playing. The OBP league leader was still worth the money. They stopped him from becoming a 3K hitter, the runs king, the XBH king, among many others. Pujols is a funny comparison. He had 0 seasons with a higher OBP than 2007 Bond's .480

In fact, let's look at 2007 Bonds vs. 2007 Pujols:

BA .276 vs. .329
OBP .480 vs. .429
SLG .565 vs. .568
HR 28 vs. 32

Pujols is in no way comparable now to Bonds at 42. His peak was comparable to bonds. Bonds absolutely was worth being paid a top 10 hitter in the league. No one signing him is 10X worse than kaepernick.

[Jack Lambert]

they might be worried about space if they put Portrait Bust of Bond's head.

[OLJWales]

This guy's gotta interesting take; good read and not long.

https://townhall.com/columnists/derekhunter/2022/01/27/baseballs-hall-of-fame-has-become-a-joke-n2602398

[Catfish]

This guy's gotta interesting take; good read and not long.

https://townhall.com/columnists/derekhunter/2022/01/27/baseballs-hall-of-fame-has-become-a-joke-n2602398

Very good read, especially the last paragraph. They have botched who's in and who's out for too long. Rep!

[Commercecomet24]

All they have to do to fix it is let the all living HOFers vote for induction and eliminate the writers. Peer voting would be the most accurate and equitable way to do it.

[Hot Rock]

Bonds has more total HRs period. That makes him the HR King. You can't erase that stat no matter how much you want. Bonds played against steroid users all around too. I can throw out that Bonds walked 500 more times than Ruth and 1100 more time than Aaron.

Bonds also got blackballed at the end of his career. He led the league with .480 OBP and had 28 bombs his final season. Then the MLB colluded to not sign him. Given a normal end to his career, he would have easily eclipsed 800 HRs. All while he had a career OBP of .444.

In the constraints of the rules, Barry Bonds is the greatest offensive threat of all time. By every measure you can cook up fairly.

800? What a freaking joke. He barely hit 30 most years when he wasn't juicing. He would have had to play into his 50's to reach Hank. Hank hit 40 plus many years and he did it clean.

Bonds was a great hitter and I will say the best hitter in the game of his era but to say Homerun King? You have to be clean to make that claim and that man was not. He cheated the game and those that came before him. I get it that everyone was doing it but no way should his hitting records be compared to those that played clean.

[Matt3467]

Best ?power? hitter. Mr Padre was the best all around hitter.
- in the modern era atleast


I'm gonna say the title of best all around hitter goes to Ted Williams and if he hadnt missed 4 years of his prime due to military service no telling what his stats would look like.

Tony Gwynn is no doubt one of the best hitters ever. I think there's no question he was the best during his playing time and possibly until now. I've got a special place for Ichiro. I think since 2000 Ichiro is the best I've had the pleasure of seeing.

Before Gwynn I would say Pete Rose was the best of his time then Ted Williams before him. Can't forget Cobb and Wagner before all of them. There have been some great hitters but some guys like these just stand out above the rest.

[Catfish]

Tony Gwynn is no doubt one of the best hitters ever. I think there's no question he was the best during his playing time and possibly until now. I've got a special place for Ichiro. I think since 2000 Ichiro is the best I've had the pleasure of seeing.

Before Gwynn I would say Pete Rose was the best of his time then Ted Williams before him. Can't forget Cobb and Wagner before all of them. There have been some great hitters but some guys like these just stand out above the rest.

Agreed. Good post.

[Hot Rock]

And one more point, at the end when he stopped taking them:

There are studies showing that you retain an advantage years after you stop taking steroids. All that muscle mass gained by cheating doesn't just leave right away. It sticks around for awhile and takes years to wear completely away.

Nope, Bonds would have been out the game years before he was out by several years and probably never even makes the 500HR club if he had remained clean his whole career.

[Coach34]

You have to judge baseball by the era's in which the players played.

Cobb really starts it all. Outstanding hitter

Babe Ruth changed the game of baseball. He was hitting more HR's than most teams did in the league. But he also did these things in an era when pitchers threw 80 mph and pitched 3 times a week- so you know they werent bringing it each time out

Ted Williams was a phenom. Amazing hitter that lost 4 years of his prime because he loved his country and flying airplanes. This was also the era in which pitching staffs began to expand

Mickey Mantle, Henry Aaron, and Willie Mayes are the next group. The best of their Era filled with good baseball players

Pete Rose was the posterchild for hitting the ball and playing hardnosed baseball

Gwynn was the modern day Cobb without making the other players in the league hate him. Wade Boggs was pretty damn good for awhile as well- but Gwynn was more solid.

Bonds was very good but the roids made him great. Griffey Jr was awesome but couldnt stay healthy while also avoiding the roids.

Pujols would be the latest of the great hitters and his time has come to an end.

The Writers are full of themselves and BS. Roids were legal and had they been available- others in past eras would have partaken. And you know this man!

[Commercecomet24]

You have to judge baseball by the era's in which the players played.

Cobb really starts it all. Outstanding hitter

Babe Ruth changed the game of baseball. He was hitting more HR's than most teams did in the league. But he also did these things in an era when pitchers threw 80 mph and pitched 3 times a week- so you know they werent bringing it each time out

Ted Williams was a phenom. Amazing hitter that lost 4 years of his prime because he loved his country and flying airplanes. This was also the era in which pitching staffs began to expand

Mickey Mantle, Henry Aaron, and Willie Mayes are the next group. The best of their Era filled with good baseball players

Pete Rose was the posterchild for hitting the ball and playing hardnosed baseball

Gwynn was the modern day Cobb without making the other players in the league hate him. Wade Boggs was pretty damn good for awhile as well- but Gwynn was more solid.

Bonds was very good but the roids made him great. Griffey Jr was awesome but couldnt stay healthy while also avoiding the roids.

Pujols would be the latest of the great hitters and his time has come to an end.

The Writers are full of themselves and BS. Roids were legal and had they been available- others in past eras would have partaken. And you know this man!

Great post and I agree ! I would add Rod Carew and George Brett in the 70s and 80s as 2 of the greats and Frank Thomas who put up Ruthian like stats for quite awhile!

These threads and discussions like this are awesome!

[Catfish]

You also have to remember that ballparks were a lot bigger in the 'Old Days'.

[BrunswickDawg]

Great post and I agree ! I would add Rod Carew and George Brett in the 70s and 80s as 2 of the greats and Frank Thomas who put up Ruthian like stats for quite awhile!

These threads and discussions like this are awesome!

Two guys a lot of people forget because they played in small markets.

For a four year stretch, Don Mattingly was one of the best ever - he was chasing Boggs for average while leading the league in doubles and hitting 30+ HR. If his back hadn't failed at 27 he's a sure HOF. And don't forget Chicken Man. Mattingly was my guy, but Boggs could hit with the best of them.

[Matt3467]

You have to judge baseball by the era's in which the players played.

Cobb really starts it all. Outstanding hitter

Babe Ruth changed the game of baseball. He was hitting more HR's than most teams did in the league. But he also did these things in an era when pitchers threw 80 mph and pitched 3 times a week- so you know they werent bringing it each time out

Ted Williams was a phenom. Amazing hitter that lost 4 years of his prime because he loved his country and flying airplanes. This was also the era in which pitching staffs began to expand

Mickey Mantle, Henry Aaron, and Willie Mayes are the next group. The best of their Era filled with good baseball players

Pete Rose was the posterchild for hitting the ball and playing hardnosed baseball

Gwynn was the modern day Cobb without making the other players in the league hate him. Wade Boggs was pretty damn good for awhile as well- but Gwynn was more solid.

Bonds was very good but the roids made him great. Griffey Jr was awesome but couldnt stay healthy while also avoiding the roids.

Pujols would be the latest of the great hitters and his time has come to an end.

The Writers are full of themselves and BS. Roids were legal and had they been available- others in past eras would have partaken. And you know this man!

I was going to mention this in my first post but thought better of it but the "evolution" of the baseball has to be taken into account as well as for the most part over the course of time the baseball has become more hitter friendly than pitcher friendly. Also spitballs were a big deal prior to the 20's and I read that it was commonplace to use the same ball for the entire game which had an impact on hitters as the ball got softer with use. I tend to lean toward the balls being a little juiced in the 90's but I don't guess that's ever been proven but it was clear something was going on and heck maybe it was just steroids but everyone started hitting more home runs.

Also while I agree the pitchers back in the day were absolute work horses and that had to work to the hitters advantage I don't think it's quite fair to say they were only hitting 80mph. It's hard to judge anyway since radar wasn't even used until the 80's but I've read before that it's been estimated Walter Johnson could throw a 100mph fastball. Even though Gibson was a little later he was throwing heat too.

[Matt3467]

When I think of steroids in baseball I always think of two people: Brady Anderson and Javy Lopez. Both very similar careers with similar numbers with one outrageous anomaly of a year. That's what I see steroids as being capable of.

[Catfish]

I was going to mention this in my first post but thought better of it but the "evolution" of the baseball has to be taken into account as well as for the most part over the course of time the baseball has become more hitter friendly than pitcher friendly. Also spitballs were a big deal prior to the 20's and I read that it was commonplace to use the same ball for the entire game which had an impact on hitters as the ball got softer with use. I tend to lean toward the balls being a little juiced in the 90's but I don't guess that's ever been proven but it was clear something was going on and heck maybe it was just steroids but everyone started hitting more home runs.

Also while I agree the pitchers back in the day were absolute work horses and that had to work to the hitters advantage I don't think it's quite fair to say they were only hitting 80mph. It's hard to judge anyway since radar wasn't even used until the 80's but I've read before that it's been estimated Walter Johnson could throw a 100mph fastball. Even though Gibson was a little later he was throwing heat too.

And the pitcher's mound was lowered in 1968. ( Commerce24 post )

[SilentSteel16]

This has been an entertaining post for sure, Ruth did play in an era where 85 was considered throwing smoke but you can’t tell me the likes of Satch, Rucker and Joe Wood were throwing 85 mph. They measured speed differently back then. They took the reading a good 50 feet away from the pitcher. Today it is measured within 3 feet of release. That is why the guns are reading higher now. I am sure that advancements in medicine and preventive care has a lot to do with it plus the fact that we as a race (human) are bigger and stronger due to diet and knowledge of macros BUT any of those mentioned above would still to this day be lights out.

I had the privilege of spending several years both in the organization and away with the likes of Larry Dierker, The Buck and the amount of baseball IQ of the major leagues vs a fan is absolutely staggering. The absolute smartest baseball mind I ever knew was Brad Ausmus. This guy could tell if his pitcher was feeling it by watching 4 pitches to the pen catcher. He explained it to me one day and after having over 23 years of actual playing ball and helping with 2 different organizations I never ever remotely picked up on how a catcher sits receiving a pitch. Brief example is if catcher is on his toes or insides of his feet. If a catcher is on his inner soles he is not overly confident on approach of ball. On his toes to mid arch he is not protecting himself as much. This is where the bullpen catcher is so essential, most of those guys are the ones that end up as pitching coaches.

[Coach34]

There's no doubt that Walter Johnson and a few others threw hard and was probably around 90 consistently. But these guys were throwing on 2 days rest constantly or even B2B days. There's no way they were hitting 88-90 on their 3rd start of the week. Plus the size of players was different. Lots of pitchers 5'8-5'11. Babe Ruth is always talked about being such a big guy back then but was only 6'2. These small players were swinging heavier bats as well.

Bob Gibson was awesome but Gibson also pitched from a higher mound. These guys today throwing 100 from an 18 inch mound would be sick.

[SilentSteel16]

The physics of a pitch is ever 8 feet of travel a ball loses 1mph, so that alone can account for almost 8 mph on a reading at home plate and one that is recorded out of the pitchers hand.

Bonds should be in, but like everyone else is saying he is a product of his era. Pete Rose should be too.

[Matt3467]

I meant to say Bob Feller not Bob Gibson but it doesn't change the point much. Bob Feller was supposedly clocked at way over 100mph I think 106 or 107.

[SilentSteel16]

I agree that is why I said they are a product of their era. Can you imagine seeing Rucker throw off todays mound with todays ball? He would probably be hitting 105 consistently. Not to mention if you put him in program that actually protects its players especially pitchers like they do today.

You had to be an absolute man to play back in the day that is why I hold them to such a high regard. Bonds would have been successful then as he was in the early 2000s. Ortiz not so much. Biggio was very Nap like and that is why o loved watching him play.

I agree with you though. Ty Cobb was and is the bar for baseball. That guy was awesome.

[Matt3467]

There's no doubt that Walter Johnson and a few others threw hard and was probably around 90 consistently. But these guys were throwing on 2 days rest constantly or even B2B days. There's no way they were hitting 88-90 on their 3rd start of the week. Plus the size of players was different. Lots of pitchers 5'8-5'11. Babe Ruth is always talked about being such a big guy back then but was only 6'2. These small players were swinging heavier bats as well.

Bob Gibson was awesome but Gibson also pitched from a higher mound. These guys today throwing 100 from an 18 inch mound would be sick.

I've been trying to find research on how lowering the pitching mound would affect a pitcher/hitter but I've not been able to find any except one place saying it has no effect. That same year in 1968 didn't they also make the strike zone smaller? I'm sure that had more of an effect than the mound height.

Edit: I found one place saying it's thought to help pitcher momentum but it's just a thought.

[SilentSteel16]

My favorite hitter that I ever personally saw play though has to be Todd Helton. I unfortunately never got to watch Tony Gwynn in person. Saw Larry Walker a bunch but that guy was a pure “see ball hit ball guy.” Helton prided himself on BP and putting balls to all parts of the field. One time I saw him bet Larry Walker that he could put a oppo ball in a garbage can in the left field corner on the fly in 10 swings. He won $250 that day. Then he doubled down and said he could do it on a bounce, Walker won his money back. But Todd Helton was “the professional hitter,” in 2000.

[Coach34]

I pitched until the age of 35 and I can tell you I threw harder from a higher mound. It 100% helps with momentum.

[Commercecomet24]

I pitched until the age of 35 and I can tell you I threw harder from a higher mound. It 100% helps with momentum.

Absolutely no doubt about it. A higher mound also changes the angle at which the pitch is delivered. Bigger break on breaking ball and a fastball looks like it's actually coming straight down hill to a hitter, making a huge difference. 18 inch mound was huge advantage for a pitcher. It's why manfred has even toyed around with lowering the mound again and moving it back to increase offense which like most of his ideas are stupid.

[Hot Rock]

Bonds hit 28 at age 42 and struck out 54 times! While being tested and investigated. We all know he wasn't loaded then.

We all know he saw some lesser players breaking records and he said watch this, i'll do the same shit and show you what I can do.

I must have replied to the wrong post. First, No way Bonds makes it to playing at age 42 without the roids. The steroid affect lasts for up to ten years after you stop taking them, so that point is invalid. Lots of Olympic supporters are pushing for much longer bans due to this new information of the long term advantages of steroids.

Hank hit 40 or more 8 times clean and 30 or more 15 times. Bonds did it clean 6 times. Sure, he would have kept doing it a few more years but to think he would have kept playing as long as he did without the steroids and hitting over 40 every year is just fantasy. He may have hit 550-600 HRs. I doubt it but he could have done it. No way he could have reached 700 or heaven forbid Hanks 755. He barely passed him on the juice and hitting 40-73 HRs year every year for almost a decade.

That one year of 73, he may have only hit 40-45 if clean which is still great but not 73 great. He was the best hitter at the time, no doubt. But he cheated the game when he used and the Homerun record should mean something even if you really can't compare era's like Todd said.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Teams are all hitting the same pitching. So if Ruth can feast off of tired pitchers throwing 80 mph, then so can all of the other hitters in the league.

Based upon their best season:
Ruth - 60 homers. The average team hit 50 homers.
Bonds - 73 homers. The average team hit 185 homers.

[OLJWales]

Teams are all hitting the same pitching. So if Ruth can feast off of tired pitchers throwing 80 mph, then so can all of the other hitters in the league.

Based upon their best season:
Ruth - 60 homers. The average team hit 50 homers.
Bonds - 73 homers. The average team hit 185 homers.

Good point. Based on what I've read, guys into the 20's were throwing low 90's -high 80's with Walter Johnson reaching upper 90's which was rare back then. The no relief ball was also an advantage for hitters back then. But NO Player is even close to separating themselves from their fellow players than Ruth. Hitting more HR's than entire teams and his best years saw one out of every 6 HR's hit in the AL belonged to Ruth. He will always be The King and all time Sultan of Swat. Imagine the lack of wheels and consistently being in top 6 or so in triples.

[Dak Holliday]

The lenses through which the comparisons are being made on this thread are impressive. Not just a black and white subject, but lots of grey areas.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Another Ruth stat:

In 1919 Ruth hit 29 homers. The entire league only hit 447 homers. Ruth hit 6.49% of all homers.

In 1921 Ruth hit 59 homers. The entire league only hit 937 homers. Ruth hit 6.30% of all homers.

In 2012 the entire league hit 4934 homers. So to match Ruth’s percentage, a single player would have to hit between 310 and 320 homers in that single season.

[Coach34]

I wasnt trying to downplay Ruth's accomplishments or impact. He was a gamechanger. But there does have to be some context.

[OLJWales]

I wasnt trying to downplay Ruth's accomplishments or impact. He was a gamechanger. But there does have to be some context.

Which is he was facing the same pitching as the
rest.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

I wasnt trying to downplay Ruth's accomplishments or impact. He was a gamechanger. But there does have to be some context.

I’m not saying Ruth was better than even the average player today. It’s impossible to compare eras. I was just pointing out what an anomaly he was in his day.

[Tater]

All this talk about steroids cheating the game.

I'll just throw this out there. Why is using the latest and greatest health advancement cheating?

What makes something a peformance "enhancing" drug?

If tylenol curtails a headache, isn't that a PED?

Why is there an arbitrary line? Why isn't recovery formula drinks and weightlifting powder all banned? Why are some allowed?

[Dak Holliday]

All this talk about steroids cheating the game.

I'll just throw this out there. Why is using the latest and greatest health advancement cheating?

What makes something a peformance "enhancing" drug?

If tylenol curtails a headache, isn't that a PED?

Why is there an arbitrary line? Why isn't recovery formula drinks and weightlifting powder all banned? Why are some allowed?

The right people are making their money off of it.

Steve Rogers was a wimp until super serum. No one calls BS on Captain America. Why? We like him. We like to pick and choose our heroes. Unfortunately, in sports, your hero can be 31 other team?s villain, and we trash them.

[Todd4State]

All this talk about steroids cheating the game.

I'll just throw this out there. Why is using the latest and greatest health advancement cheating?

What makes something a peformance "enhancing" drug?

If tylenol curtails a headache, isn't that a PED?

Why is there an arbitrary line? Why isn't recovery formula drinks and weightlifting powder all banned? Why are some allowed?

I'll say this about the steroids era for context on behalf of those players.

Baseball before the late 80's I would say working out was big time taboo. Probably really was into the early 1990's for a lot of guys if I'm being honest. But what happened is you had guys like Nolan Ryan training hard and working out and it turns out the opposite of what was universally thought was happening. Guys were playing longer and performing better. Jose Canseco was probably the poster boy for that- who yes used steroids and Bo Jackson who worked out like he did because he played in the NFL.

So baseball players who had really never worked out much before in their lives started to work out. And they had no idea what the hell the were doing. So they hired trainers. The trainers were the guys giving the players steroids in a lot of cases and the players either had no idea what it was or they knew and it didn't matter because it wasn't illegal in baseball so they weren't breaking any rules.

Then Jose Canseco got jealous of McGwire because Canseco ended up out of the game because he was lazy and Big Mac was essentially a national hero. So he rats everyone out and then the government decided to get involved for some reason. And now you have these holier than thou loser sports writers who never played past rec league deciding that they're going to keep all of these guys out because they think it somehow makes them better people or something.

What has happened is the training has evolved. It's light years better than it was in 1998. There are more guys throwing 100 than ever before and you have guys throwing 105 even. Hitting would be up there too and even better once someone realizes that hitting for power and average is better than hitting for power and striking out 200 times a season.

[Todd4State]

I must have replied to the wrong post. First, No way Bonds makes it to playing at age 42 without the roids. The steroid affect lasts for up to ten years after you stop taking them, so that point is invalid. Lots of Olympic supporters are pushing for much longer bans due to this new information of the long term advantages of steroids.

Hank hit 40 or more 8 times clean and 30 or more 15 times. Bonds did it clean 6 times. Sure, he would have kept doing it a few more years but to think he would have kept playing as long as he did without the steroids and hitting over 40 every year is just fantasy. He may have hit 550-600 HRs. I doubt it but he could have done it. No way he could have reached 700 or heaven forbid Hanks 755. He barely passed him on the juice and hitting 40-73 HRs year every year for almost a decade.

That one year of 73, he may have only hit 40-45 if clean which is still great but not 73 great. He was the best hitter at the time, no doubt. But he cheated the game when he used and the Homerun record should mean something even if you really can't compare era's like Todd said.

I don't know. Pujols has played to that age. Aaron played that long too. Mays, and others played into their 40's. It's not common for a regular player but for a superstar it's certainly not unheard of. And that's throughout multiple eras.

[OLJWales]

This page has been a damn good read; thanks to all.

Here's my question though. How much bad side effects exist with this stuff these days? I heard it shrivel your Junk & shit along with other serious organ damage. Is it fair for a player who wants no Johnson Damage compete with another who may be willing to trade a few inches for 35lbs of extra muscle? (Except the muscle between the legs)

[Dak Holliday]

This page has been a damn good read; thanks to all.

Here's my question though. How much bad side effects exist with this stuff these days? I heard it shrivel your Junk & shit along with other serious organ damage. Is it fair for a player who wants no Johnson Damage compete with another who may be willing to trade a few inches for 35lbs of extra muscle? (Except the muscle between the legs)

Liver and kidney damage is real. Those lead to a ton of co-morbitities on their own. Many elevate the bph to hypertension levels which have detrimental effects on long term health. There?s a reason so many body builders look like the image of fitness and die before they?re 60.

[SilentSteel16]

The myth of your junk shriveling up and shrinking is actually a short term truth. What a certain stack that was popular in the late 90s to mid 2005 did was dehydrate your body to push it into other areas for muscle growth. This was a short term effect of it. The clubhouse knew who was using for 3 days after injection due to “turtlehead”. It was a running joke in the league and organizations. There was no long term effects of that area. However, as much as it pains me to say DAK IS CORRECT in the long term overall health effect that it has on your organs mainly the fatty organs such as liver, and for men prostate glands. Women do they have found are more prone to breast issues later in life.

The list of pro ball players that used steroids in the 2000s is very very long. Some did it for recovery whereas others simply abused it and they became obvious with their bodies giving them away. You will be surprised at how many beloved “little guys” used them.

[Dak Holliday]

The myth of your junk shriveling up and shrinking is actually a short term truth. What a certain stack that was popular in the late 90s to mid 2005 did was dehydrate your body to push it into other areas for muscle growth. This was a short term effect of it. The clubhouse knew who was using for 3 days after injection due to ?turtlehead?. It was a running joke in the league and organizations. There was no long term effects of that area. However, as much as it pains me to say DAK IS CORRECT in the long term overall health effect that it has on your organs mainly the fatty organs such as liver, and for men prostate glands. Women do they have found are more prone to breast issues later in life.

The list of pro ball players that used steroids in the 2000s is very very long. Some did it for recovery whereas others simply abused it and they became obvious with their bodies giving them away. You will be surprised at how many beloved ?little guys? used them.

Rep earned and given

[Tater]

This page has been a damn good read; thanks to all.

Here's my question though. How much bad side effects exist with this stuff these days? I heard it shrivel your Junk & shit along with other serious organ damage. Is it fair for a player who wants no Johnson Damage compete with another who may be willing to trade a few inches for 35lbs of extra muscle? (Except the muscle between the legs)

Guess he wasn't willing to sacrifice enough to succeed. Doesn't have the desire to be great.

[Catfish]

Guess he wasn't willing to sacrifice enough to succeed. Doesn't have the desire to be great.

So in order to be a great ballplayer they have to use PEDS?

[Matt3467]

So in order to be a great ballplayer they have to use PEDS?

That's how it reads. That's not a very good take.

[Catfish]

That's how it reads. That's not a very good take.

I agree. There have been a lot of great ballplayers that didn't use peds.

[SilentSteel16]

I believe he was trying to be funny about not willing to lose inches elsewhere. Really think he was trying to be funny

[Todd4State]

This page has been a damn good read; thanks to all.

Here's my question though. How much bad side effects exist with this stuff these days? I heard it shrivel your Junk & shit along with other serious organ damage. Is it fair for a player who wants no Johnson Damage compete with another who may be willing to trade a few inches for 35lbs of extra muscle? (Except the muscle between the legs)

It's mostly because it ruins your liver, kidney, and heart. Those side effects are very real. I had a patient who was a bodybuilder who had to get a heart transplant because he blew out his heart using steroids.

To me, from a baseball standpoint the issue is do you want to sacrifice years off of your life for millions of dollars which may set your family up for their life?

For a lot of baseball players it wasn't about adding muscle. It was about aiding recovery which is needed because a 162+ game baseball season is absolutely brutal.

[OLJWales]

It's mostly because it ruins your liver, kidney, and heart. Those side effects are very real. I had a patient who was a bodybuilder who had to get a heart transplant because he blew out his heart using steroids.

To me, from a baseball standpoint the issue is do you want to sacrifice years off of your life for millions of dollars which may set your family up for their life?

For a lot of baseball players it wasn't about adding muscle. It was about aiding recovery which is needed because a 162+ game baseball season is absolutely brutal.

Not 100 % on board. Anything non toxic should be cool while side effect Shit needs to be gone and punished.

[Tater]

So in order to be a great ballplayer they have to use PEDS?

In order to be great you gotta make sacrifices. Brady sacrificed his kid's childhood and being a dad. But nowhere did I say that PED usage was a requirement for being great. Tongue-in-cheek joke about needing to do what others won't to be great. Idk where both you and matt learned to read, but might need to go back and pick up context clues you're missing.


That's how it reads. That's not a very good take.

How it reads is measuring guy who will take PEDs vs ones who won't. One is quite explicitly willing to sacrifice more to achieve greatness.


I believe he was trying to be funny about not willing to lose inches elsewhere. Really think he was trying to be funny

Thank lord not everyone here is unable to read.

[Tater]

Not 100 % on board. Anything non toxic should be cool while side effect Shit needs to be gone and punished.

There's side effects to everything. If you could sacrifice your 70s and onward for having 100 million at 25, a lot of people would do that.

[Dak Holliday]

There's side effects to everything. If you could sacrifice your 70s and onward for having 100 million at 25, a lot of people would do that.

100% Agree.

[Todd4State]

Not 100 % on board. Anything non toxic should be cool while side effect Shit needs to be gone and punished.

Agree. And that's why baseball banned it. But that's the fault of players like Bonds and McGwire who played when it wasn't illegal in baseball. And they shouldn't be penalized for it. All of this was new for MLB in the 1990's because of what I said earlier- it simply wasn't an issue because no one lifted weights outside of Frank Howard for years in baseball. Steroids weren't even a thought until the late 1980's.