wow, looks like prince fielder traded to Rangers

[bully99]

For Ian kinsler. Don't know all details. If true probably end of Mitch Moreland career at first base for rangers.

[Will James]

Good move by Detroit. Allows them to sign Scherzer and gets rid of Fielder's massive contract.

[ShotgunDawg]

Great trade for both teams:

1. Allows Detroit to move Cabrera back to 1st and put Nick Castellanos at 3rd.

2. Frees up money for Detroit to re-sign Max Scherzer

3. Gives Detroit an offensive 2nd baseman that we will need due to losing offense at SS by making the transition from Peralta to Iglesias

4. Gives Texas a middle of the order left handed power power guy. Could replace Josh Hamilton lineup impact in that ball park. could.....

Ramifications:

1. The Cardinals should just sign Stephen Drew or shop somewhere else because the Rangers now have all the leverage in negotiations for Profar because he now has a position. Stephen Drew's market goes up due to this trade.

2. Mitch Moreland should now be on the market since the Rangers have virtually no use for him.

[bully99]

Moreland could be a backup first baseman, rightfielder or bench player. Don't think he would be happy.

[ShotgunDawg]

Moreland could be a backup first baseman, rightfielder or bench player. Don't think he would be happy.

Doesn't make much sense for the Rangers to do that since both Fielder and Moreland are left handed. Texas will probably try to acquire a right handed hitter to take Mitch's spot.

[Will James]

1. The Cardinals should just sign Stephen Drew or shop somewhere else.

Jed Lowrie

[Homedawg]

Moreland could be a backup first baseman, rightfielder or bench player. Don't think he would be happy.

He won't be offered arbitration to be a backup. He will be elsewhere.

[I seen it dawg]

I think it's good for Rangers too if not better. Fielder will rake that ballpark and it opens up a spot for Profar, who is really cheap for a few more years. Kinsler is injury prone at this point in his career. And the cost of Kinslers contract with him being hurt vs the money and production in Fielder and the cost of Profar I think is a good deal.

Rangers have money and haven't really spent a whole lot. They get a huge bat for current market price while shedding older player contract and opening up young star spot. I think the Rangers did very well in this deal.

[ShotgunDawg]

Jed Lowrie

Lowrie would work as well, but Lowrie will also be a free agent after the 2014 season. So, IMO, St. Louis shouldn't do a deal for Lowrie unless he was willing to sign an extension.

Furthermore, to get Lowrie you would have to make a trade with Oakland and give up a really good prospect whereas if you sign Drew you give up the 31st pick in the draft, which would amount to probably a projected average MLB player. Maybe Matt Adams or Kolten Wong.

So the Cardinals could go either way. Just depends on whether Lowrie will sign an extension and if the Oakland will make a trade for a reasonable price.

[HereComesTheSpiral]

Arent the Rangers losing both corner outfielders? If Moreland stays in Texas, I would look for him to take over in RF for now.

[ShotgunDawg]

Arent the Rangers losing both corner outfielders? If Moreland stays in Texas, I would look for him to take over in RF for now.

Alex Rios is back and David Murphy signed with the Indians yesterday. So the Rangers must replace just LF.

They could resign Nelson Cruz (Not likely), pay Craig Gentry arbitration and give him a chance to start everyday (Not what they want to do), or try to sign Shin Soo Choo (Would very much like to do this). Engel Beltre could also factor in, but I don't think he is an everyday player on a championship team.

In addition, they could also look into what Carlos Beltran would cost or take a chance on Johnny Peralta playing left (Could be an interesting concept.)

Also wouldn't be surprised to see the Rangers sign Michael Young at a discounted rate, to be their utility guy/backup first baseman.

[Will James]

Lowrie would work as well, but Lowrie will also be a free agent after the 2014 season. So, IMO, St. Louis shouldn't do a deal for Lowrie unless he was willing to sign an extension.

Furthermore, to get Lowrie you would have to make a trade with Oakland and give up a really good prospect whereas if you sign Drew you give up the 31st pick in the draft, which would amount to probably a projected average MLB player. Maybe Matt Adams or Kolten Wong.

So the Cardinals could go either way. Just depends on whether Lowrie will sign an extension and if the Oakland will make a trade for a reasonable price.

Oakland just signed Punto to be able to trade Jed. Drew is, by definition, a average MLB player.

[ShotgunDawg]

Oakland just signed Punto to be able to trade Jed. Drew is, by definition, a average MLB player.

Yes he is an average player, but that is a major upgrade for the Cardinals as an average MLB SS is a good player.

I believe that Oakland will trade Lowrie, but the Cardinals have to weigh the positives and negative of both. For me, Lowrie would have to open to signing an extension for it to happen. No sense in giving up a good prospect for a one year fix.

[ShotgunDawg]

Saw a tweet in which someone predicted Andrus to be traded to the Cardinals, Profar to SS, and Cano to 2nd base. That would be interesting.

[I seen it dawg]

That would be interesting indeed. Boras is a magician.

[bully99]

Appropriate Fielder going to Rangers, because everything is bigger in Texas as they say.

[dawgs]

i think this is a solid deal for both teams. obviously there are other moves that need to be made for both to work out optimally, but on the surface, both arguably improved today imo. fielder will likely out produce kinsler the next couple of years, but kinsler's contract isn't nearly as long or pricey as fielder's either.

[Dawg61]

Not buying this as a good move for Detroit. Fielder protected Miggy. Whose taking up that job for them now?

[ShotgunDawg]

Not buying this as a good move for Detroit. Fielder protected Miggy. Whose taking up that job for them now?

No brainer great move for Detroit.

Read this:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/tigers-exchange-albatross-for-good-player-get-even-better/

[Dawg61]

That's great and all but it doesn't answer who will protect your triple crown winner now? You lose Fielder's bat and you'll see a drop in production from Cabrera.

[Will James]

That's great and all but it doesn't answer who will protect your triple crown winner now? You lose Fielder's bat and you'll see a drop in production from Cabrera.

Meme alert. Protection is BS. You are trading basically two 3 win players. It will otherwise improve Detroit's defense AND allow them to spend big money in other places. It's a huge no-brainer.

[Dawg61]

Fielder is a much better defensive player at first than Miggy so you downgraded there yet upgraded at 3rd but seriously downgraded your bat at 3rd. Protection isn't BS dude. Watch Miggy's numbers plummet this year without Fielder to protect him.

[ShotgunDawg]

Fielder is a much better defensive player at first than Miggy so you downgraded there yet upgraded at 3rd but seriously downgraded your bat at 3rd. Protection isn't BS dude. Watch Miggy's numbers plummet this year without Fielder to protect him.

1. Miggy is not a bade defensive 1st baseman. You simply can't be an adequate MLB 3rd baseman, and not me be an adequate 1st baseman, if you work at it.

2. Miggy's numbers may slightly drop, but the dude is the best hitter on the planet. They aren't going to plumet.

The Tigers are a much better team due to this deal.

[dawgs]

Fielder is a much better defensive player at first than Miggy so you downgraded there yet upgraded at 3rd but seriously downgraded your bat at 3rd. Protection isn't BS dude. Watch Miggy's numbers plummet this year without Fielder to protect him.

have you followed baseball prior to the last 2 seasons? the only difference between miggy pre-fielder and miggy with fielder is a bit of an uptick in HRs. AVG, RBIs, OBP, Rs, etc. are all within natural variation with or without fielder.

[Will James]

Protection isn't BS dude. Watch Miggy's numbers plummet this year without Fielder to protect him.

Protection is absolutely BS and has roundly been proven so. Miggy DROPPED his production last year, his first with Prince, from his non-Prince year of 2011. Even if he won the mythical worthless triple crown

[Todd4State]

Protection is absolutely BS and has roundly been proven so. Miggy DROPPED his production last year, his first with Prince, from his non-Prince year of 2011. Even if he won the mythical worthless triple crown

Someone's mad that they don't include walks in the triple crown.

[Todd4State]

The Cardinals want Tulowitzki. Will they get him? I don't know. The price to get him is WAY high- which is to be expected. The Cardinals don't want to move Shelby Miller, Matt Adams, Carlos Martinez, Trevor Rosenthal, or Oscar Taveras. They probably will have to move at least one of those guys to get Tulo- if not more.

I don't know that it means that an Andrus to the Cardinals trade is out the window. The Rangers have some more really good middle infield prospects in the minors that are close to being ready for MLB- like Luis Sardinas and Rougned Odor. It just means that the Rangers won't get Matt Adams.

What I think this trade means for the Cardinals is it opens up Omar Infante as a free agent option now. A lot of people think that Stephen Drew will go to the Cardinals- but he wants a lot of years (I think four) but it may be the best option when it's all said and done. There are also talks of Freese being traded to the Angels- maybe for Aybar?

I haven't heard anything about Jed Lowrie going to the Cardinals, but if he did I don't think he would cost too much in prospects, but the fact that he will be a free agent after this season is probably why it won't happen. Unless Lowrie agrees to a deal after being traded.

If I am the Cardinals GM, and I can't get Tulo- I re-sign Furcal for a one year deal. And then I sign that Cuban SS who just defected Eribel Arrenbanuella. As a defender, he is incredible. I send him to AA and see if he can hit (I think he will hit about .250 with 3-5 HR's in MLB). If by chance he can't or he needs more time, then I go after someone like Lowrie or JJ Hardy in the 2014 off season as a free agent.

[HereComesTheSpiral]

The Cardinals want Tulowitzki. Will they get him? I don't know. The price to get him is WAY high- which is to be expected. The Cardinals don't want to move Shelby Miller, Matt Adams, Carlos Martinez, Trevor Rosenthal, or Oscar Taveras. They probably will have to move at least one of those guys to get Tulo- if not more.

I don't know that it means that an Andrus to the Cardinals trade is out the window. The Rangers have some more really good middle infield prospects in the minors that are close to being ready for MLB- like Luis Sardinas and Rougned Odor. It just means that the Rangers won't get Matt Adams.

What I think this trade means for the Cardinals is it opens up Omar Infante as a free agent option now. A lot of people think that Stephen Drew will go to the Cardinals- but he wants a lot of years (I think four) but it may be the best option when it's all said and done. There are also talks of Freese being traded to the Angels- maybe for Aybar?

I haven't heard anything about Jed Lowrie going to the Cardinals, but if he did I don't think he would cost too much in prospects, but the fact that he will be a free agent after this season is probably why it won't happen. Unless Lowrie agrees to a deal after being traded.

If I am the Cardinals GM, and I can't get Tulo- I re-sign Furcal for a one year deal. And then I sign that Cuban SS who just defected Eribel Arrenbanuella. As a defender, he is incredible. I send him to AA and see if he can hit (I think he will hit about .250 with 3-5 HR's in MLB). If by chance he can't or he needs more time, then I go after someone like Lowrie or JJ Hardy in the 2014 off season as a free agent.
I would hate to lose Adams, but if it gets Tulo then that is a good deal to make. Craig could stay at first and Taveras come in to play right. Andrus would be another player I would like, maybe trade Miller and Jay.

[Dawg61]

Protection is absolutely BS and has roundly been proven so. Miggy DROPPED his production last year, his first with Prince, from his non-Prince year of 2011. Even if he won the mythical worthless triple crown

Name another human that calls the triple crown worthless?

[Dawg61]

If I'm the Cardinals I give up whoever the Rockies want for Tulo

[HereComesTheSpiral]

If I'm the Cardinals I give up whoever the Rockies want for Tulo

Not named Wacha, Taveras, or Craig

[Todd4State]

I would hate to lose Adams, but if it gets Tulo then that is a good deal to make. Craig could stay at first and Taveras come in to play right. Andrus would be another player I would like, maybe trade Miller and Jay.

Jay doesn't have very much trade value right now. If it were me, I would try to do a Lynn or Joe Kelly for Andrus trade.

[Todd4State]

If I'm the Cardinals I give up whoever the Rockies want for Tulo

Well, they have to be careful not to mortgage the entire farm. I really think Adams will be an All-Star at first base, and I think Shelby Miller could be a front of the rotation ace. You add Miller to Wacha and Wainwright- that has the potential to be one of the best rotations in baseball history- especially when you throw Carlos Martinez in behind it.

To me, Lynn and Kelly are much more expendable. I'd be willing to give up Lynn, Kelly, and Stephen Piscotty. That would give them two solid MLB starting pitchers that can come in right now and help them and are very inexpensive. Piscotty can play first base and is almost MLB ready right now and had a strong Arizona Fall League season. He also can play right or left field and will hit for power.

[Will James]

Name another human that calls the triple crown worthless?

Rank the following years in order of production. 2011 Miggy. 2012 Miggy. 2013 Miggy.

Any honest individual has it 2013, 2011, 2012. But the TC was 2012. It is not a measurement of anything valuable. Bonds never did it. Is Miggy better than Bonds? No.

Sure you have to be a great hitter to do it. But it doesn't measure production as well as other things so to me it's worthless. Like hitting streaks, fun to talk about. Not worth much.

[Todd4State]

Rank the following years in order of production. 2011 Miggy. 2012 Miggy. 2013 Miggy.

Any honest individual has it 2013, 2011, 2012. But the TC was 2012. It is not a measurement of anything valuable. Bonds never did it. Is Miggy better than Bonds? No.

Sure you have to be a great hitter to do it. But it doesn't measure production as well as other things so to me it's worthless. Like hitting streaks, fun to talk about. Not worth much.

He might be closer than you would think. History will let us know.

[dawgs]

Well, they have to be careful not to mortgage the entire farm. I really think Adams will be an All-Star at first base, and I think Shelby Miller could be a front of the rotation ace. You add Miller to Wacha and Wainwright- that has the potential to be one of the best rotations in baseball history- especially when you throw Carlos Martinez in behind it.

To me, Lynn and Kelly are much more expendable. I'd be willing to give up Lynn, Kelly, and Stephen Piscotty. That would give them two solid MLB starting pitchers that can come in right now and help them and are very inexpensive. Piscotty can play first base and is almost MLB ready right now and had a strong Arizona Fall League season. He also can play right or left field and will hit for power.

i'm sure everyone would love to give up some back end of the rotation arms in exchange for the best hitting SS in the game (when healthy)

[Todd4State]

i'm sure everyone would love to give up some back end of the rotation arms in exchange for the best hitting SS in the game (when healthy)

True. But on how many teams would Lynn and Kelly be back end of the rotation arms? There is a chance that both of them could end up in the Cardinals bullpen. Lynn was an All-Star (1.8 WAR in 13) and Kelly had an ERA of 2.69 ERA (2.6 WAR in 13).

So, basically I'm offering up 4.4 worth of WAR in young proven starting pitching that barely costs 1 million combined plus a good prospect who has a chance to be an All-Star type of player for a 5.3 WAR guy with injury issues and a big contract.

[dawgs]

True. But on how many teams would Lynn and Kelly be back end of the rotation arms? There is a chance that both of them could end up in the Cardinals bullpen. Lynn was an All-Star (1.8 WAR in 13) and Kelly had an ERA of 2.69 ERA (2.6 WAR in 13).

So, basically I'm offering up 4.4 worth of WAR in young proven starting pitching that barely costs 1 million combined plus a good prospect who has a chance to be an All-Star type of player for a 5.3 WAR guy with injury issues and a big contract.

lynn and kelly don't project to be much, if any better, than they are already pitching though. in fact, kelly will likely regress to around a 4.00 pitcher unless his K rates and/or BB rates improve dramatically. and lynn has a mediocre fly ball rate, which won't play well in coors.

[Will James]

True. But on how many teams would Lynn and Kelly be back end of the rotation arms? There is a chance that both of them could end up in the Cardinals bullpen. Lynn was an All-Star (1.8 WAR in 13) and Kelly had an ERA of 2.69 ERA (2.6 WAR in 13).

So, basically I'm offering up 4.4 worth of WAR in young proven starting pitching that barely costs 1 million combined plus a good prospect who has a chance to be an All-Star type of player for a 5.3 WAR guy with injury issues and a big contract.

You gotta get away from the WAR and look at the numbers, non-cumulative.

Kelly is not a great pitcher. As dawgs said, his ERA will be ~ 4.00. That's who he is. Lynn's the better arm but again, pretty average as far as SP go. If you want to go WAR, Lynn-Kelly projected to combine for 2.6 this coming year per Fangraphs.

[Will James]

He might be closer than you would think. History will let us know.

Miggy had a wRC+ of 192 last year. This stat is used to compare players from different seasons. It takes the league averages so it's not measuring Bonds vs current environment in a vacuum. This was Cabrera's highest EVER. Bonds had six years higher than this including three years above 230 which is INSANE. In 2004 Bonds had a 38% BB rate. You will never see that again. Career 20% BB rate.

Bonds' 2001-2004 years are ALL in the top 13 hitting years in history. Miggy checked in at 48th this year.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=1920&ind=1&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18%2cd

[Todd4State]

lynn and kelly don't project to be much, if any better, than they are already pitching though. in fact, kelly will likely regress to around a 4.00 pitcher unless his K rates and/or BB rates improve dramatically. and lynn has a mediocre fly ball rate, which won't play well in coors.

Lynn has also been lights out against the Dodgers. How do they compare to Jon Garland and Jeff Francis? Because that's who they would be replacing at a much cheaper rate. Plus moving either Tyler Chatwood or Juan Nicasio would improve the woeful Rockies bullpen. Oh yes, and I'm saving the Rockies a TON of money over the long term.

In the meantime, I'm taking an injury prone player out of a hitter's ballpark who also isn't likely to improve a lot either and just turned 30 and will cost my team 20 million plus I believe a 4 million dollar relocation fee that's in his contract. Money that they could very easily use to get JJ Hardy or some other big name free agent. (Cano? Ellsbury?)

On top of that, I'm giving them Piscotty who is about as good a prospect as you can hope to get in a trade and is very versatile.

[Will James]

Lynn has also been lights out against the Dodgers.

Why go here? Again, I refer you to sample sizes.

[Todd4State]

You gotta get away from the WAR and look at the numbers, non-cumulative.

Kelly is not a great pitcher. As dawgs said, his ERA will be ~ 4.00. That's who he is. Lynn's the better arm but again, pretty average as far as SP go. If you want to go WAR, Lynn-Kelly projected to combine for 2.6 this coming year per Fangraphs.

And what about the other side? Should the Cardinals overspend on a 20 million dollar injury prone SS? And I'm throwing in Piscotty too- I think he will be an All-Star. And then there is the money issue.

The Rockies starters 4-6 had a WAR of -0.6 per Baseball-Reference. (Nicasio, Francis, and Garland). So, even at 2.6 WAR- that's a better than what they have been getting. Plus, I imagine Kelly's numbers are somewhat off since he shuttled between the bullpen and the rotation some. It's probably more like 2.8 WAR

[Todd4State]

Why go here? Again, I refer you to sample sizes.

And I refer you to the sabermetric white flag? The Cardinals felt it was large enough of a sample size to not pitch Miller in the NLCS. I'm glad that they did- it probably won them the NLCS. That's why they brought in Lynn in extra innings- which they won, and Lynn pitched game four and also won.

If you are the Rockies and competing against the Dodgers- that's helpful to know.

[Todd4State]

Miggy had a wRC+ of 192 last year. This stat is used to compare players from different seasons. It takes the league averages so it's not measuring Bonds vs current environment in a vacuum. This was Cabrera's highest EVER. Bonds had six years higher than this including three years above 230 which is INSANE. In 2004 Bonds had a 38% BB rate. You will never see that again. Career 20% BB rate.

Bonds' 2001-2004 years are ALL in the top 13 hitting years in history. Miggy checked in at 48th this year.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=1920&ind=1&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18%2cd

Does this vacuum take PEDS into account? Cabrera just turned 30. We'll see what he does going forward. I think he is just now entering his prime.

[Will James]

Does this vacuum take PEDS into account? Cabrera just turned 30. We'll see what he does going forward. I think he is just now entering his prime.

Yes it takes PED's into account. I said its NOT a vacuum. wRC+ is looking at your performance against the league THAT SEASON.

[Will James]

It's probably more like 2.8 WAR

This is so incredibly off it's not even funny. Fangraphs had him at 0.4 WAR.

In his 124 IP you think he is close to 3 WHOLE WINS above a replacement player? Thats insane

[Todd4State]

This is so incredibly off it's not even funny. Fangraphs had him at 0.4 WAR.

In his 124 IP you think he is close to 3 WHOLE WINS above a replacement player? Thats insane


Umm....no. You mentioned the 2.6 WAR as a combined number between both Lynn and Kelly. The 2.8 number I was referring to is also a combined number between both Lynn and Kelly. So, I'm saying Kelly is a 0.6 WAR player rather than 0.4 WAR.

Either way, Kelly at 0.4 WAR is still better than what the Rockies were getting out of three of their starting pitchers. And with more upside and cheaper as well.

[Will James]

Either way, Kelly at 0.4 WAR is still better than what the Rockies were getting out of three of their starting pitchers. And with more upside and cheaper as well.

But you're giving up Tulowitzki for that? That's the point.

[Dawg61]

Steroids or not I don't care the single greatest hitting season I've ever seen was Barry Bonds 73 homeruns in the same year HE SHATTERED THE RECORD FOR WALKS AND INTENTIONAL WALKS. Not looking it up but he had about 200 plate appearances that he was walked in. He would of hit 100+ homeruns that year if he was walked normally. The guy was absolutely disgusting that year. If you put the ball anywhere close to the plate he was destroying it every single time. And yes I'm a Giants fan. I know he's a total prick but man if you were/are a Giants fan he was simply amazing to watch hit a baseball. Hey Babe Ruth was a total asshole too but everyone loves him. Michael Jordan was an asshole too. Tiger Woods asshole.

[Todd4State]

But you're giving up Tulowitzki for that? That's the point.

For Joe Kelly and Lance Lynn straight up? No. You must have glossed over the part about giving up Stephen Piscotty, and salary relief that they can use to get another big time free agent. I know you want a ginormous sample size- but Piscotty will be a very good player, and should be ready for MLB sometime this season. But don't take my word for it:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/stl/bernie-pleskoff-stephen-piscotty-looking-like-home-run-selection-for-cardinals?ymd=20131118&content_id=63988952&vkey=news_stl

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=piscot001ste

The Cardinals would be assuming a LOT more risk. Per fangraphs- Tulo is projected to be a 5.5 WAR (streamer) player next year. But he is injury prone and costs a lot of money. That's why I am not willing to give up someone like Shelby Miller. If Tulo didn't have the injury history, I would be OK with it. This trade would pretty much guarantee at worst that their rotation and bullpen would be upgraded and that they would have a lot more financial flexibility to add free agents whereas they can't do that as well right now. On top of that, I'm giving them a prospect that is versatile and can play three positions and projects as a guy who can hit 25 home runs- probably more at Coors- with speed and whom can play good outfield defense with a good throwing arm. On top of all that, he is basically ready for MLB right now and can contribute almost right away and he helps with their need for power. And they get him for less than a million dollars.

If they take 16 million off the books this year and then 20 million off the books the next few- they can easily get someone like Choo or Ellsbury and if his demands come down which they will- maybe even Cano.

[dawgs]

I think you are seriously overrating piscotty. I don't see anything projecting him as a 25 HR guy or future all-star. His track record and the info I can find looks like he's gonna be the next nick markakis - solid avg, pretty mediocre everywhere else.

And regarding Kelly, you gotta project into the future and know that his K and BB rates don't add up to being a sub-3.00 era guy, or even a mid-3.00 era guy. I don't care what he did in small sample sizes against the dodgers this year, next years they could rock him if luck isn't on his side. You think his WAR will go up with more innings? I think it's far more likely his WAR goes in the shitter.

If the Rockies trade tulo to the cards, I'd think taveraa, Adams, miller, or wacha would have to be involved, otherwise show him elsewhere or wait for a contender to be desperate at the deadline.