Excuse me

[FriarsPoint]

I just read something that gave a poll reading for the threshold of MLB hall of fame voting status. The magic percentage was 75. The recent poll I saw showed Bonds beyond 75. Sosa was at 17%

Ok. Fine. Where?s Pete? He?s better than both you mfers and didn?t have to use drugs to do it.

Fine. Race. Ok. Pete was a teammate and manager when times were a long way from what they were during Bond?s time.

Absolute bullshit

Pete is one of the greatest EVER. Without roids.

[Catfish]

Yes, Pete, was one of the best ball players ever and I hope he gets in the HOF.

[msstate7]

He was not better than bonds... even pre-steroid bonds. Both should be in though.

[BrunswickDawg]

The #1 rule for a century in baseball was you can't be associated with gambling on baseball. So let's just ignore that Pete bet on games he was managing in. You guys are all about rules and commitment for our football players and yet want a guy that committed baseball's cardinal sin to be in the HOF? GTFO with that hypocrisy.

At least steroid guys can claim it was "part of the game" at the time. Pete can't claim that.

[msstate7]

The #1 rule for a century in baseball was you can't be associated with gambling on baseball. So let's just ignore that Pete bet on games he was managing in. You guys are all about rules and commitment for our football players and yet want a guy that committed baseball's cardinal sin to be in the HOF? GTFO with that hypocrisy.

At least steroid guys can claim it was "part of the game" at the time. Pete can't claim that.

That's a good point. I still think he deserves it on his playing career even if he tainted it while managing.

[sleepy dawg]

They'll let him in one day after he'd dead.

[Catfish]

They'll let him in one day after he'd dead.

Agreed.

[BrunswickDawg]

They'll let him in one day after he'd dead.

Shoeless Joe says "I don't think so."

[WhiskeyPirate]

Rose was much better than Sosa, and Bonds is hard to say as he was about a buck 60 soaking wet then put on 80 pounds through steroids and GH.

[msstate7]

Rose was much better than Sosa, and Bonds is hard to say as he was about a buck 60 soaking wet then put on 80 pounds through steroids and GH.

Bonds was always better. Rose topped out at 7.4 fWAR. Bonds topped that 9 times before the roid years ('01-'04). During that stretch, he was over 10 all 4 years and over 12 twice. Bonds walked at an unbelievable 20.3% rate and only struck out at 12.2% for his career, and he was a freaking slugger. That's an amazing stat

[WhiskeyPirate]

Bonds was always better. Rose topped out at 7.4 fWAR. Bonds topped that 9 times before the roid years ('01-'04). During that stretch, he was over 10 all 4 years and over 12 twice. Bonds walked at an unbelievable 20.3% rate and only struck out at 12.2% for his career, and he was a freaking slugger. That's an amazing stat
Bonds was on the gas way before 2001

There’s a big rewriting of history

[msstate7]

Bonds was on the gas way before 2001

There’s a big rewriting of history

Let's say it was 1996 then. Bonds topped rose's rWAR peak 5 times before 1996

[smootness]

Pete Rose should never touch the HOF.

[Tater]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JwMfT2cZGHg

Regardless of Steroids opinions... that 04 season is still the wildest stat line I've ever seen from a baseball player.

Rose will never be allowed in when alive. Maybe dead, but X needs to get in as well.

Baseball's hall of fame is so stupid. Arguably 4 of the top 10 most recognizable baseball names (Bonds, Shoeless, Rose, ARod) will not be allowed in while Larry Walker and Jim Rice are in there lmfao. I only hope they **** up and elect a guy who gets outed for Steroid use later (looking at you David Ortiz). Ruin the "sanctity" or whatever bs. The MLB looked the other way and rather encouraged it.

In fact, with advancements in modern medicine, who is to say there should be anything against HGH anymore. What is "natural"? It's stupid and arbitrary and one (of numerous) reasons why major league baseball is going the way of NASCAR.

[smootness]

I have no problem with any of these guys being left out of the HOF. The thing that does hurt it is letting guys like Craig Biggio in.

[Quaoarsking]

I have no problem with any of these guys being left out of the HOF. The thing that does hurt it is letting guys like Craig Biggio in.

Or Harold Baines just because he had friends on the veterans' committee.

[Catfish]

HOF should be for great players, not good players. Huge difference. Way too many good players being elected now.

[OLJWales]

Anybody ever heard of Rose's connection to the KC, MO MOB regarding his gambling escapades? An in-law of mine claimed insider info saying Pete bet on his team to lose sometimes. Take it for what it's worth. Pete knew full well about gambling while the steroid users did so as an "everybody's doing it" kinda thing. Bonds had the strongest and fastest wrists and forearms I've ever seen. Shoeless had great stats in the world series.

[Matt3467]

Rose was a great but he wasn't on Barry's level ever. Barry is one of the best to play and I say that through clenched teeth because I wasn't a fan of his reportedly selfish attitude plus the steroid usage. If they let Barry in though that opens up a huge can of worms as you can't ignore guys like Sosa, McGwire and others.

Rose's issue is entirely a different issue. I think it is a little more cut and dry though since it was separate from his playing time but it was pretty despicable nonetheless.

[Matt3467]

I have no problem with any of these guys being left out of the HOF. The thing that does hurt it is letting guys like Craig Biggio in.

I've always thought 3000+ career hits made you a lock for the HOF. Quite an achievement anyway.

[shoeless joe]

I feel like I’m especially qualified to discuss this*

If bonds and Clemens get in then palmeiro will eventually get in as well. I honestly have no problem with none of them getting in. However, Clemens is the one that I think deserves to be in the least of them all. Yes bonds broke the most hallowed of records held by a TRUE icon of the game but Clemens use directly affected numerous post seasons and that bothers me more than individual records. When Clemens came back in on a days rest to throw 5 shutout innings in game for against the Braves in 05 is a direct result of his steroid use. It allows for quicker and more efficient rehab and comebacks for pitchers.

[WhiskeyPirate]

Steroids for a pitcher are far less effective than for a 170 pounder who hits for a good batting avg and power who puts on 80+ pounds and becomes a home run hitter.


What would bonds have done without the steroids, GH and 80+ pound weight gain ? He’d probably still hit 500 home runs, hit for average and be a HOFer but he sure as hell wouldn’t have hit 700+ home runs.

[WhiskeyPirate]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232963978123

[Tater]

Steroids for a pitcher are far less effective than for a 170 pounder who hits for a good batting avg and power who puts on 80+ pounds and becomes a home run hitter.


What would bonds have done without the steroids, GH and 80+ pound weight gain ? He’d probably still hit 500 home runs, hit for average and be a HOFer but he sure as hell wouldn’t have hit 700+ home runs.

Steroids main thing is the injury recovery speed. The what if I always think of is if Junior did roids. With so many injuries he had, to still break 600 and clean. Man he'd have had 800+.

[shoeless joe]

Steroids for a pitcher are far less effective than for a 170 pounder who hits for a good batting avg and power who puts on 80+ pounds and becomes a home run hitter.


What would bonds have done without the steroids, GH and 80+ pound weight gain ? He’d probably still hit 500 home runs, hit for average and be a HOFer but he sure as hell wouldn’t have hit 700+ home runs.

Disagree 100%

Pitchers benefited the most because they could come back sooner and stronger.

Yes steroids helped guys hit further, obviously, but the number 1 thing they did was increase the speed at which your body recovers from injury, muscle use, or basically anything that normally affects guys once they reach their mid 30s. That’s really what separates the steroid era from other eras in the game…all the late 30s early 40s guys that were putting up record numbers.

[WhiskeyPirate]

Steroids main thing is the injury recovery speed. The what if I always think of is if Junior did roids. With so many injuries he had, to still break 600 and clean. Man he'd have had 800+.

Melon headed 250 pound Bonds wasn’t juiced to the gills for injury prevention. He was a hitter with power he never would have possessed naturally. Growth hormone may have helped recovery but many juicers are constantly tearing tendons and muscles.

The biggest advantage Clemons got was probably just more mass coming down the mound with a little better velocity. Pitching arms don’t correlate with raw strength like power hitters do. Oil can Boyd probably couldn’t have benched 135 pounds.

Disagree on steroids being miracle drugs for a rotator cuff or shoulder joint. Corticosteroids help but not necessarily anabolic steroids.

[Todd4State]

I feel like I’m especially qualified to discuss this*

If bonds and Clemens get in then palmeiro will eventually get in as well. I honestly have no problem with none of them getting in. However, Clemens is the one that I think deserves to be in the least of them all. Yes bonds broke the most hallowed of records held by a TRUE icon of the game but Clemens use directly affected numerous post seasons and that bothers me more than individual records. When Clemens came back in on a days rest to throw 5 shutout innings in game for against the Braves in 05 is a direct result of his steroid use. It allows for quicker and more efficient rehab and comebacks for pitchers.

I believe most if not all of the steroid guys will eventually get in- but it will be the Veteran's committee putting them in.

And LOL at the media for virtue signaling not voting for McGwire and Bonds but then voting in Jeff Bagwell.

The truth is steroids was so rampant at that time that it was basically a roided up pitcher vs a roided up hitter. Which to me levels the playing field.

[Todd4State]

Disagree 100%

Pitchers benefited the most because they could come back sooner and stronger.

Yes steroids helped guys hit further, obviously, but the number 1 thing they did was increase the speed at which your body recovers from injury, muscle use, or basically anything that normally affects guys once they reach their mid 30s. That’s really what separates the steroid era from other eras in the game…all the late 30s early 40s guys that were putting up record numbers.

People misunderstand what steroids were really for. But you get it. It was helping players get stronger and play longer. The majority taking steroids at that time were not hitting 500 foot home runs. It was so players could accelerate their recovery and play more over a 162+ game schedule. Something that players were doing well before the 1990's with amphetamines- basically getting high so that they could play that day.

[FISHDAWG]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232963978123

meanwhile Dale Murphy just shakes his head

[Coach34]

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.

[WhiskeyPirate]

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.
Exactly

I watched Barry’s dad Bobby play, a 30 30 guy , good speed with some decent power.....that’s about what Barry would have been, lean not a bulky power hitter.

If you google some images of bonds when he was a rookie he really was pretty puny. He became so bulked up on juice it was ridiculous not to mention the head to toe armor he would wear so he could crowd the plate. He was a chemical creation.

[Catfish]

meanwhile Dale Murphy just shakes his head

Rep!

[msstate7]

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.

More like great to even greater. Bonds was always a top flight player

[Coach34]

More like great to even greater. Bonds was always a top flight player

Meh- Barry Bonds before steroids:

1986- 16- 48 .223
1987- 25- 59 .261
1988- 24- 58 .283
1989- 19- 58 .248
1990- 33-114 .301
1991- 25-116 .292

It could be argued that he started getting on the juice by 1990 but most I've seen seems to point to 1992. Bonds was about a 25-30 HR guy without the roids. Really good- but not great. He became GREAT with roids.

[BrunswickDawg]

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.


Wrong. just wrong. It isn't unheard of for players to be better in the 30s than in their 20s at all. In fact, a lot of players will tell you they didn't find their best hitting until their late 20s. Look at 2 of the best - Aaron and Mays. Hank Aaron had 253 HR thru 8 seasons at age 27 (31.6 a season). He hit 301 over his next 8 seasons to age 35 (37.6 a season). Then he had his best HR season at age 37 when he hit 47 bombs. He even had 1 more 40 HR season in '73 at age 39. Mays was the same way - 216 HR in 7 seasons to age 27 (30.9). He hit 326 over his next 8 (40.75), then tailed off his last decade.

Bonds numbers thru 1999 (age 34) track pretty well with Aarons (445 to 554) - in a juiced ball era, which was just as responsible for the HR surge as steroids (and don't say MLB didn't juice it, hell they got caught juicing the ball this season!). It is almost certain Bonds would have reached 500 HR in 1-2 more years. But he felt that wasn't enough. From what I've read about Bonds and BALCO, the '98 McGuire/Sosa race plus him being injured in '99 are what led him to going "all in" while also moving to a new park that was 309 ft down the RF line in 2000. He wanted the record and went for it with juice. He juiced, and might have juiced earlier than that.

But the take about players not improving after 27 is just way off base.

[Coach34]

Wrong. just wrong. It isn't unheard of for players to be better in the 30s than in their 20s at all. In fact, a lot of players will tell you they didn't find their best hitting until their late 20s. Look at 2 of the best - Aaron and Mays. Hank Aaron had 253 HR thru 8 seasons at age 27 (31.6 a season). He hit 301 over his next 8 seasons to age 35 (37.6 a season). Then he had his best HR season at age 37 when he hit 47 bombs. He even had 1 more 40 HR season in '73 at age 39. Mays was the same way - 216 HR in 7 seasons to age 27 (30.9). He hit 326 over his next 8 (40.75), then tailed off his last decade.

Bonds numbers thru 1999 (age 34) track pretty well with Aarons - especially in a juiced ball era, which was just as responsible for the HR surge as steroids (and don't say MLB didn't juice it, hell they got caught juicing the ball this season!). From what I've read about Bonds and BALCO, the '98 McGuire/Sosa race plus him being injured in '99 are what led him to going "all in" while also moving to a new park that was 309 ft down the RF line in 2000. He wanted the record and went for it with juice.

But the take about players not improving after 27 is just way off base.

I didnt say players dont improve after age 27. But you are also comparing guys that werent the norm being called up to the Big League as boys. Bonds played 3 years of college baseball and was much more mature than Mays or Aaron. Had more modern training than they did coming up. 27-33 is probably some of your best baseball years. I dont dispute that. But the jump we started seeing out of Bonds was ridiculous.

[msstate7]

Meh- Barry Bonds before steroids:

1986- 16- 48 .223
1987- 25- 59 .261
1988- 24- 58 .283
1989- 19- 58 .248
1990- 33-114 .301
1991- 25-116 .292

It could be argued that he started getting on the juice by 1990 but most I've seen seems to point to 1992. Bonds was about a 25-30 HR guy without the roids. Really good- but not great. He became GREAT with roids.

fWAR is a great way to compare him to his peers at the time.
1986 - 3.3
'87 - 5.3
'88 - 5.4
'89 - 7.1
'90 - 9.9
'91 - 7.8

That's really good

[BrunswickDawg]

I didnt say players dont improve after age 27. But you are also comparing guys that werent the norm being called up to the Big League as boys. Bonds played 3 years of college baseball and was much more mature than Mays or Aaron. Had more modern training than they did coming up. 27-33 is probably some of your best baseball years. I dont dispute that. But the jump we started seeing out of Bonds was ridiculous.

Bonds came up at age 21.
Aaron came up in 1954 at age 20. He'd had 2 years in the minors.
Mays made his ML debut in 1951 at age 20. He'd played 1 season in the Negro Leagues, 1.5 seasons in the minors.

I just don't think 1 year in college made him that much more mature than any kid making their ML debut at age 20-21.

[Tbonewannabe]

I believe most if not all of the steroid guys will eventually get in- but it will be the Veteran's committee putting them in.

And LOL at the media for virtue signaling not voting for McGwire and Bonds but then voting in Jeff Bagwell.

The truth is steroids was so rampant at that time that it was basically a roided up pitcher vs a roided up hitter. Which to me levels the playing field.

I always think of Bagwell when I think of roids. Dude looked like a WWF wrestler. He was as juiced as McGwire or Bonds, no one ever said anything for whatever reason.

[BoomBoom]

Bonds was at 142 HR's after playing 6 years in MLB and he was 27 years old. He wasnt quite averaging 25 HR's per season. No way in hell he hits 500 HR's without the roids. 30 HR's for the next 10 seasons would have only put him at 442 and 37 years old. From that season on he went from not averaging 25 per to averaging over 40 per. Roids took Bonds from good to great. Same with Palmeiro and many more.

Brady Anderson remains my favorite of them all. Had 72 total HR's in 9 seasons in MLB. 10th season? Hits 50 HR's. Way to figure pitchers out Brady.

I doubt Bonds would have failed to get bigger without the roids. In other words, I doubt he was working out like a beast and stuck at 160, then did roids and HGH and bulked up like he did. Seems more likely he started working out a lot harder concurrently with juicing, so without the juice he likely would have been somewhere in between.

[SilentSteel16]

Y’all are crazy if you think Craig Biggio doesn’t belong there

[SilentSteel16]

Biggio was an all star at 3 different positions. 4xGold glove winner at his 3rd position. 3k hits. Dude was a stud. Murphy was good also but Biggio was better. Harold Baines getting in is a joke though. Rose should be in, Clemens and Bonds NO.

[WhiskeyPirate]

I doubt Bonds would have failed to get bigger without the roids. In other words, I doubt he was working out like a beast and stuck at 160, then did roids and HGH and bulked up like he did. Seems more likely he started working out a lot harder concurrently with juicing, so without the juice he likely would have been somewhere in between.
Take a look at Bonds now, he?s about a buck fifty. He?s not naturally big or muscular at all. All drugs.