Honest Question about the offense

[TNDawg35]

So I honestly have a question about our offense. After watching several bowl games, I have noticed teams taking the top off the defense with their receivers, but notice we don?t hardly do it. As someone else mentioned, our WR seem to never get separation. Everytime they catch the ball, the defender is right there to make the tackle. How come we seem to never have WR running wide open in a busted coverage or what not?

On a side note, can Will make a long enough throw to take the top off. Can he honestly hit a wide open Polk running down the edge? I mean is it Will just not looking deep down field or is it honestly not there to look at?

[Pancho]

Will struggles with that aspect.

[Dak Holliday]

Will struggles with that aspect.

And we see a lot of Zone D.

[WhiskeyPirate]

The defense is able to keep everything in front of them and have a small 20 yard box to defend. This is because the q b can’t really throw beyond 20 yards. This is why a q b with a good arm who can attack down the field and can buy time in the pocket makes us so much more explosive. Will has to play almost perfect to win with 8-15 yard passes and he really has to have perfect o line play because he can’t sidestep a pass rush.

If you want to get to 9-10 wins, you have to get a grad transfer q b or hope Robertson/Locke mature in a hurry(they both are probably a year away).

[Cowbell]

The defense is able to keep everything in front of them and have a small 20 yard box to defend. This is because the q b can?t really throw beyond 20 yards. This is why a q b with a good arm who can attack down the field and can buy time in the pocket makes us so much more explosive. Will has to play almost perfect to win with 8-15 yard passes and he really has to have perfect o line play because he can?t sidestep a pass rush.

If you want to get to 9-10 wins, you have to get a grad transfer q b or hope Robertson/Locke mature in a hurry(they both are probably a year away).

This is not true. The reason we don't take the top off is because people are running 8 man zones and we can't keep them honest with the run game. Same thing the nfl is starting to see more of with 2 high safeties

[ShotgunDawg]

It?s a mixture of what you two are saying. Neither of you are wrong

[confucius say]

DJ had 9 carries for 62 yards Tuesday.
7 yards a carry.
Not committing to the run more has been part of the problem.

[WhiskeyPirate]

This is not true. The reason we don't take the top off is because people are running 8 man zones and we can't keep them honest with the run game. Same thing the nfl is starting to see more of with 2 high safeties

It is very true to anyone who watches our games. Just watch a pass where we try to throw across the field from the near hash to the far sideline.....it’s a 5 mph wobbling duck. Defenses are not dropping 8 all the time anymore.

How far down field can our q b throw ? 25 yards max ?

It is what it is. It’s nothing personal, I like Will and think he has done an admirable job.

I’m just speaking in terms of what our ceiling is with this q b in this offense. I’d say 7-8 wins if we get very good o line protection and Will has to play darn near perfect with the short passes.

With a big armed athletic q b that can attack nearly double the area on the field I think we can get to ten wins given the receivers we are accumulating. Of course we have to get a good pass blocking o line.

[Bdawg]

This is not true. The reason we don't take the top off is because people are running 8 man zones and we can't keep them honest with the run game. Same thing the nfl is starting to see more of with 2 high safeties

This!! If we get a little more creative in the run game enough to keep them out of dropping into deep zones, deeper shots would be there more often.

[Bdawg]

It is very true to anyone who watches our games. Just watch a pass where we try to throw across the field from the near hash to the far sideline.....it’s a 5 mph wobbling duck. Defenses are not dropping 8 all the time anymore.

How far down field can our q b throw ? 25 yards max ?

It is what it is. It’s nothing personal, I like Will and think he has done an admirable job.

I’m just speaking in terms of what our ceiling is with this q b in this offense. I’d say 7-8 wins if we get very good o line protection and Will has to play darn near perfect with the short passes.

With a big armed athletic q b that can attack nearly double the area on the field I think we can get to ten wins given the receivers we are accumulating. Of course we have to get a good pass blocking o line.

This is dumb. I can throw over 25 easy. So can Will. But his passes can be slow to the sideline and take too long

[WhiskeyPirate]

This is dumb. I can throw over 25 easy. So can Will. But his passes can be slow to the sideline and take too long

A pass to the sideline and a pass down field have something in common , arm strength.

You can be slow but have a strong arm or you can be quick , athletic and have a weak arm.....but it makes it tough when you are slow with a weak arm in terms of attacking the whole field.

[Bdawg]

Ya ok

Well refute it genius. You going to talk shit about our players then back it up! You think Will can't complete passes over 25+? And a big arm QB will "double" the size of the field we can attack? Nobody says Will has a NFL arm; we all know what we see. I see defenses dropping coverages and playing zone to prevent the deep ball. I see us burn there ass when they go man. That's why we don't see it much except in the redzone when the field shrinks. If we opened up the running game a bit more(and that may be on Will's shoulders to call it and Leach's shoulders to design it) we will see better looks to throw it downfield. But you keep thinking Leach would recruit a QB who can't throw it over 25 yards.

[WhiskeyPirate]

Well refute it genius. You going to talk shit about our players then back it up! You think Will can't complete passes over 25+? And a big arm QB will "double" the size of the field we can attack? Nobody says Will has a NFL arm; we all know what we see. I see defenses dropping coverages and playing zone to prevent the deep ball. I see us burn there ass when they go man. That's why we don't see it much except in the redzone when the field shrinks. If we opened up the running game a bit more(and that may be on Will's shoulders to call it and Leach's shoulders to design it) we will see better looks to throw it downfield. But you keep thinking Leach would recruit a QB who can't throw it over 25 yards.

Read the post directly above yours.

I root for the whole team and program. I’m not emotionally invested in one player. I like Marks. But if Hargrove is more explosive and gives the team a better chance to win....then I want Hargrove to start. I feel the same about the q b position.

[Bdawg]

Read the post directly above yours.

I root for the whole team and program. I’m not emotionally invested in one player. I like Marks. But if Hargrove is more explosive and gives the team a better chance to win....then I want Hargrove to start. I feel the same about the q b position.

If there is a transfer out there better than Will and we can get him, I'm all for it. I believe what you say about the best should play. I want the best 11(freshman or senior) to play. It's one reason why I like Leach. I think he plays the best unlike some coaches. But I had to call you out on the 25 yard stuff and doubling the size of the field. Will ain't that bad. His arm is not nfl. We can agree to that. I came off too harsh. Sorry for that.

[Cowbell]

It is very true to anyone who watches our games. Just watch a pass where we try to throw across the field from the near hash to the far sideline.....it?s a 5 mph wobbling duck. Defenses are not dropping 8 all the time anymore.

How far down field can our q b throw ? 25 yards max ?

It is what it is. It?s nothing personal, I like Will and think he has done an admirable job.

I?m just speaking in terms of what our ceiling is with this q b in this offense. I?d say 7-8 wins if we get very good o line protection and Will has to play darn near perfect with the short passes.

With a big armed athletic q b that can attack nearly double the area on the field I think we can get to ten wins given the receivers we are accumulating. Of course we have to get a good pass blocking o line.

You need to go back and watch our games again. You can not throw deep when you can't get past the safeties when they are in zone. The same way the chiefs and broncos took away Daks deep balls. It is not just against leech.

And will has completed some 40 yard passes through the air this year but people just ignore those.

And we aren't winning 10 games until we get more speed on both sides of the ball. We are SLLLOOOWWWW!

[coachnorm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVDpLb5ZrGA

I have audited many football games from high school to NFL and learned that most completions are contested or nearly contested. Anyone can download any complete game at any level and do an audit, just use the video seek bar and a piece of paper.

If a defense is on point, the offense will struggle to get separation especially against zone coverage therefore the offense has to have a plan “B” which is just getting position with an area called a “ZONE”. When position is established the receiver goes to war with the defender.

If the secondary is properly coached, another defender will switch assignments and trade responsibility with the defender being separated from. Generally, the receivers use different step sequences and vary the pattern to get position to dominate a defender. The receiver knows that separation will just cause a trade off or a knock out shot from the new defender.

Generally, against quality zone defenses, receivers go vertical or use set-up crossover technique within a zoned area. Generally, in true schematic passing, the receivers run strict step sequences and strict geometry and the quarterback has to figure things out.

In match-up passing, the receiver just gets to “THE SPOT”. The receiver chooses how he gets there; he just has to get there on time. In match-up, the quarterback knows he is throwing contested balls unlike in schematic. I have included a video to illustrate the psychology.

[bulldawg28]

A pass to the sideline and a pass down field have something in common , arm strength.

You can be slow but have a strong arm or you can be quick , athletic and have a weak arm.....but it makes it tough when you are slow with a weak arm in terms of attacking the whole field.

1000000% truth

[BrunswickDawg]

We are SLLLOOOWWWW!

Yes - and while our WR are much better than at any time in recent memory and are better coached they still are not at a level that the best team have. The fact that we have a walk on contributing at WR tells you what you need to know. I'm happy for Scoob - he's a friend of my nephew, a great kid and worked his tail off to get here, but it tells you a whole lot about the quality of WR we have on the roster.

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVDpLb5ZrGA

I have audited many football games from high school to NFL and learned that most completions are contested or nearly contested. Anyone can download any complete game at any level and do an audit, just use the video seek bar and a piece of paper.

If a defense is on point, the offense will struggle to get separation especially against zone coverage therefore the offense has to have a plan “B” which is just getting position with an area called a “ZONE”. When position is established the receiver goes to war with the defender.

If the secondary is properly coached, another defender will switch assignments and trade responsibility with the defender being separated from. Generally, the receivers use different step sequences and vary the pattern to get position to dominate a defender. The receiver knows that separation will just cause a trade off or a knock out shot from the new defender.

Generally, against quality zone defenses, receivers go vertical or use set-up crossover technique within a zoned area. Generally, in true schematic passing, the receivers run strict step sequences and strict geometry and the quarterback has to figure things out.

In match-up passing, the receiver just gets to “THE SPOT”. The receiver chooses how he gets there; he just has to get there on time. In match-up, the quarterback knows he is throwing contested balls unlike in schematic. I have included a video to illustrate the psychology.

Good video!

[vindastra]

I might be entirely wrong, but what is wrong with our RBs? Any time they run, they go down even when someone looks at them. However, every other RB that plays against us seems unstoppable.

Shouldn't our RBs have broken away multiple times if they clear the 10 yard defense?

[DesotoDog1967]

Texas Tech allowed less points than Bama. Seems if you are a former Leach player with 3 weeks to prepare you can put a smack down on the Bulldogs. Worried about Memphis opening week. Probably the most important game in Leach's career to set tempo on a seat that might hot soon.

Arnett always get a pass. Is he that good? Is it schemes on both sides of the ball?

[Leeshouldveflanked]

1. Will doesn?t have the arm talent to take the top off a defense.
2. Our RBs dont have the speed, power or illusiveness to either have defenders miss or have the ability to break tackles.
3. Rara and Tulu are the only two receivers that have take it to the house ability. Both have issues staying healthy enough to be consistent contributors so far.

[Desoto1967]

So its the players and not the scheme? I have been high, low and indifferent on Leach and the Air Raid since he came.

[trojandawg]

It?s because we don?t have a threat of a run game and aren?t balanced. It?s like the opposite of running every down and defenses loading the box. When you pass every down they put the box on the top and keep everything in front of them 10-15 yards. And when we can?t break tackles or get open it doesn?t move. Will also can?t throw anyone open or chunk if like that

[Pancho]

The O will either click as it did at Auburn or it will look about like it did in the Liberty Bowl. There simply isn't a complex enough ground game or a TE utilization to do otherwise. When the Receivers can't get open, it will appear as it they have hardly even practiced the previous week. I feel as if this will be the norm.

[Todd4State]

Will has to be more confident/willing to attack down the field and be more willing to hand the ball off at times.

Walley can be a deep threat but he drops the ball too much.

Mostly comes down to growing up IMO.

[coachnorm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O8SpZlWRuA&t=10393s

I have attached a YouTube file of the Southern California Football JUCO championship game. The winner of this game repeated the championship. Riverside JUCO is a strict match-up passing attack. Riverside is schematic garbage supported with excellent match-up evolution. The team that Riverside gave their only loss of the season, Golden West, was schematically better and sounder in the passing game.

I have seen both JUCOs for years because I was a JUCO coach for a while. Golden West does some good schematic stuff to augment its match-up quality. Golden West actually had all the “i”s dotted and “t”s crossed, but there was just one problem. That problem was a receiver from Marrero Louisiana, John Ehret H.S., and his name is Jamal Houston. Remember, Riverside JUCO passing scheme or lack therein is schematic garbage.

Go to timeline 2.24:00 on the YouTube link shown on this entry. You are going to see a quarterback lock on to Jamal Houston. The O.C. and quarterback have no doubt that Jamal Houston is going to execute his match-up magic and Jamal proved them correct with a 75 yard touchdown grab. Jamal was so fast in his get off and threatening to the slot defender that even a great pass blitz could not get to the passer.

Go to timeline 2.32:15 on the timeline and notice a weak armed quarterback underthrow a 38 yard pass. When that pass is launched, it is a firm interception but there is just one problem. Take notice that Jamal Houston made things right even though Riverside showed its schematic incompetence again? Even though Riverside JUCO features match-up passing, I wonder if John Ehret H.S. has a great receiver coach. Without Jamal’s gifts Riverside does not win the Southern California JUCO title, with Jamal Riverside wins with a weak armed quarterback.

I have introduced a YouTube link of Doug Baldwin of the NFL. I have personally seen that match-up technique executed at Riverside JUCO, because I have watched uncountable hours of video. My attitude is if a JUCO in California can execute match-up technique, Mississippi State should be able also, even if practice time has to be reconfigured away from schematic execution.

I did some additional reading on Jamal Houston and found out that Jamal was on Mississippi State’s radar before he had to go JUCO. Jamal is now looking like an Ole Miss guy currently when he qualifies.

Fellow elitedoggers can correct me but all I can recall of LSU is two scheme quarterbacks over the last 20 years Zack Mettenberger for two years and Joe Burrow for one yet LSU has had success with receivers executing in college and going into the NFL?

[WhiskeyPirate]

Instead of receiver matchup,skills, why not get a q b who can throw the ball ?

[Leroy Jenkins]

This is dumb. I can throw over 25 easy. So can Will. But his passes can be slow to the sideline and take too long

Anything over 15 yards downfield is a rainbow. And heaven forbid we have to throw an out route to the sideline from the opposite hash, that shit looks like the St Louis arch.

[coachnorm]

Instead of receiver matchup,skills, why not get a q b who can throw the ball ?

The MSU QB has thrown the ball at a record level this year. MSU needs to get to a next better level and I believe that getting the receivers at a higher level will help QB play against upper tiered defenses. The end game is production and other programs are using match-up skills for production. I believe Will Rogers reflects what is exposed to him within the program. The quarterback should not have to bear all the weight for production: the coaches and receivers have to help out?

[Bdawg]

Anything over 15 yards downfield is a rainbow. And heaven forbid we have to throw an out route to the sideline from the opposite hash, that shit looks like the St Louis arch.

Ok, that's not true on 15+ passes. Most deep balls are throw with an arch anyway. I never said he had a strong arm. The passes to far sideline does seem like we are waiting on paint to dry. But he can make deep throws and is usually very accurate. The defense is dictating a lot on our deep routes. We need a little more in the running game to help this. But he's what we've got until someone better comes along. I think he will progress further next year and be in better control of the offense. Experience will start to be on his side. We need to quit exaggerating his limitations, even though we know he has some.

[Bdawg]

The MSU QB has thrown the ball at a record level this year. MSU needs to get to a next better level and I believe that getting the receivers at a higher level will help QB play against upper tiered defenses. The end game is production and other programs are using match-up skills for production. I believe Will Rogers reflects what is exposed to him within the program. The quarterback should not have to bear all the weight for production: the coaches and receivers have to help out?

I like your thinking. Although I think the qb is most important, who he's throwing to is pretty important as well. And to me, it's on the coaches to throw a bit more of a wrinkle in the run game to help open a few more things up.

[coachnorm]

https://www.facebook.com/973TheFan/videos/keyshawn-smiths-catch-on-you-got-mossed/618502238596545/

Thought I would share some personal frustration with fellow elitedoggers. As I posted in the past, I communicated with Greg Byrne about one of my players in San Diego. Greg relayed my conversation to Rusty Felker. That player was even better than Jamal Houston who I introduced in this communication. I would have put money on my player Aaron Harris as better than Jamal Houston. Aaron holds the rushing records for both Southwestern JUCO and Granite Hills High School in the San Diego area. Aaron was as good a receiver as running back and I believe that he would have won a starting position at MSU as slot receiver if he got there. Greg and I were very frustrated with Felker’s inactivity. I had Aaron interested in Mississippi State. I believe this occurred in 2009.

Because of my work load with the US Navy F/A-18 program, I had interrupted service at Southwestern JUCO. When I had an open window, I would get back on staff. I would fill in as needed therefore I have coached secondary, linebackers, and receivers at JUCO level. One year I could not get back on staff because it was full, the following year I got back on staff. During that off year, I coached high school football and discovered Keyshawn Smith from Lincoln High School. I asked what he thought about Mississippi State and he said he would love to go there.

I posted the attachment in this section on elitedawgs. Go to timeline 0.44 on the seek bar and watch Keyshawn Smith go national by correcting a quarterbacks terrible throw. After my effort, Keyshawn was approached by the Miami Hurricanes and is doing well.

[parabrave]

I might be entirely wrong, but what is wrong with our RBs? Any time they run, they go down even when someone looks at them. However, every other RB that plays against us seems unstoppable.

Shouldn't our RBs have broken away multiple times if they clear the 10 yard defense?

Coaching, Strength and conditioning and gameplanning. How many times in practice do we practice running plays? Did you notice the difference in body mass and tone between our players and Bamas. And game calling. TBs need to get the ball more than 5 times a game to get their toughness and also to wear down the defense. Face it. Cinn dropped into their stop the pass defense and Bama just drove it down their throat. Us in the same situation well you saw what happened in the TT game.

[parabrave]

And any DC next year who doesn't play TTs defense against us should be fired.

[Commercecomet24]

Dillon Johnson runs hard and breaks multiple tackles every game(just look at his yac),Marks is extremely fast. Both of these backs were heavily recruited and are dang good backs. Our run game needs to be more creative to get them more/better looks but Johnson and Marks are both quality sec rbs.

[parabrave]

They are quality backs but in this system they are wasted talent/

[Todd4State]

And any DC next year who doesn't play TTs defense against us should be fired.

I hope they do. We'll beat it if we see it enough. Just like Barry Odom's "magic drop 8" defense.

[Todd4State]

The MSU QB has thrown the ball at a record level this year. MSU needs to get to a next better level and I believe that getting the receivers at a higher level will help QB play against upper tiered defenses. The end game is production and other programs are using match-up skills for production. I believe Will Rogers reflects what is exposed to him within the program. The quarterback should not have to bear all the weight for production: the coaches and receivers have to help out?

Our fans are blaming Will wayyyyy too much for everything. The Liberty Bowl was his worst game by far other than maybe Alabama and our fans are acting like this was a weekly thing.

MSU has a lot of issues. Will has some things that he needs to work on. But it's not just him. Kicker, getting a better pass rush, getting better safeties, and finding speedier receivers are all things that need to be addressed as much if not more than Will.

[BrunswickDawg]

They are quality backs but in this system they are wasted talent/

The two of them accounted for 1825 yards from scrimmage and 14 touchdowns, and about 5.3 yards a touch. Those yards were split pretty evenly between the two, and those yards split about 50/50 run/receiving. If they gained those yards in a more traditionally O - where they maybe had 200 yards receiving and 1600 yards rushing, you'd be crowing a about our two headed monster backfield. We use them very effectively in this offense, it's just not how many fans want.

That being said - the next way for the offense to elevate still has to be an increase in the run game. Leach's Texas Tech teams ran far more than we have. And either Will needs to elevate those reads and audible to run more or we need to call more running plays.

[Catfish]

The two of them accounted for 1825 yards from scrimmage and 14 touchdowns, and about 5.3 yards a touch. Those yards were split pretty evenly between the two, and those yards split about 50/50 run/receiving. If they gained those yards in a more traditionally O - where they maybe had 200 yards receiving and 1600 yards rushing, you'd be crowing a about our two headed monster backfield. We use them very effectively in this offense, it's just not how many fans want.

That being said - the next way for the offense to elevate still has to be an increase in the run game. Leach's Texas Tech teams ran far more than we have. And either Will needs to elevate those reads and audible to run more or we need to call more running plays.

Agreed