Defensive PF after play. Maybe give the O 15 but keep the down and distance the same

[OLJWales]

As if no flag. Bad idea?

[Todd4State]

I don't like it because if the defense is undisciplined I want the fresh set of downs plus the 15 yards.

[OLJWales]

I don't like it because if the defense is undisciplined I want the fresh set of downs plus the 15 yards.

I see auto 1st downs on PI for obvious reasons but PF after the play? The D has earned their down and yards; no? 3rd & 10 stuffed, questionable late hit.call 1st down. Give them the 15 but the D earned that 4th down and the PF had nothing to do with the stop.

[Coursesuper]

I see auto 1st downs on PI for obvious reasons but PF after the play? The D has earned their down and yards; no? 3rd & 10 stuffed, questionable late hit.call 1st down. Give them the 15 but the D earned that 4th down and the PF had nothing to do with the stop.

It?s a dead ball play. Anything that happened before that is irrelevant. This situation doesn?t make sense.

[OLJWales]

It?s a dead ball play. Anything that happened before that is irrelevant. This situation doesn?t make sense.

PF's DO get tacked on after the play. Play counts then yds tacked on.

[Coursesuper]

PF's DO get tacked on after the play. Play counts then yds tacked on.

Yes it?s a dead ball. A dead ball foul happened after the previous play. The only place to assess the yardage from is the preceding spot, you can?t go back to the previous spot as that was from a play that already over. That?s why I say in this instance what happened before isn?t part of what happened. The automatic first down is a deterrent because in long yardage plays it could get ugly if there is no consequence for that type of play.

[OLJWales]

Yes it?s a dead ball. A dead ball foul happened after the previous play. The only place to assess the yardage from is the preceding spot, you can?t go back to the previous spot as that was from a play that already over. That?s why I say in this instance what happened before isn?t part of what happened. The automatic first down is a deterrent because in long yardage plays it could get ugly if there is no consequence for that type of play.

Understood and well said if I'm reading you right. I AM saying apply the 15 yd penalty but the down and distance play itself shouldn't be scrapped. A sack on 3rd & 10 shouldn't convert to a 1sr down cuz the safety dissing the WR.

[Coursesuper]

[QUOTE=OLJWales;1394296]Understood and well said if I'm reading you right. I AM saying apply the 15 yd penalty but the down and distance play itself shouldn't be scrapped. A sack on 3rd & 10 shouldn't convert to a 1sr down cuz the safety dissing the WR.[/

Understand you here but this foul carries the automatic first down for a reason, it, the unsportsmanlike foul, PI and others carry these for player safety first and foremost. It?s a deterrent to keep things in hand. If you had ever worked a game you would see things can get out of hand faster than you think. Did you realize a white hat can end a game at any time? I?ve been a part of 2 different rivalry game that we ended in the 3rd quarter before it all went to hell. And in the situation you mentioned if the safety wasn?t dumbass there wouldn?t be a foul.

[OLJWales]

[QUOTE=OLJWales;1394296]Understood and well said if I'm reading you right. I AM saying apply the 15 yd penalty but the down and distance play itself shouldn't be scrapped. A sack on 3rd & 10 shouldn't convert to a 1sr down cuz the safety dissing the WR.[/

Understand you here but this foul carries the automatic first down for a reason, it, the unsportsmanlike foul, PI and others carry these for player safety first and foremost. It?s a deterrent to keep things in hand. If you had ever worked a game you would see things can get out of hand faster than you think. Did you realize a white hat can end a game at any time? I?ve been a part of 2 different rivalry game that we ended in the 3rd quarter before it all went to hell. And in the situation you mentioned if the safety wasn?t dumbass there wouldn?t be a foul.

I can dig that especially coming from your experience level of which I have none. I am looking at it from a purely scientific way however. If the O gets a 1st down but commits a PF right after the play, then they keep their earned down and yards just backed up 15 yds, no? Way doesn't the D get that same option?

[Coursesuper]

[QUOTE=Coursesuper;1394303]

I can dig that especially coming from your experience level of which I have none. I am looking at it from a purely scientific way however. If the O gets a 1st down but commits a PF right after the play, then they keep their earned down and yards just backed up 15 yds, no? Way doesn't the D get that same option?

The dead ball foul is the deal. It's all about where the ball has to be spotted for enforcement of the foul. You have to forget the play that occurred before the ball became dead and deal with the situation that you have when the dead ball foul happened.

[BoomBoom]

As if no flag. Bad idea?

Bad idea, because playing with discipline is part of the Defense's job. Though I would agree to toss the automatic 1st down. If it's 3rd and 20 and you commit a PF on an incomplete pass, then 4th and 5.

[OLJWales]

Bad idea, because playing with discipline is part of the Defense's job. Though I would agree to toss the automatic 1st down. If it's 3rd and 20 and you commit a PF on an incomplete pass, then 4th and 5.

Solid reply. But why is the offense not also required to play with discipline? If the O makes a first down then commits an after play PF they lose the 15 yd but NOT the 1st Down they earned prior to one of THEIR offensive players doing something stupid after the play. Therefore a 3rd down stop followed by a PF commited after the play by the defensive unit should award the offense 15 yds but they must keep the 4th and yds. Looks like a double standard;. Offensive PF VS Defensive PF.

[BoomBoom]

Solid reply. But why is the offense not also required to play with discipline? If the O makes a first down then commits an after play PF they lose the 15 yd but NOT the 1st Down they earned prior to one of THEIR offensive players doing something stupid after the play. Therefore a 3rd down stop followed by a PF commited after the play by the defensive unit should award the offense 15 yds but they must keep the 4th and yds. Looks like a double standard;. Offensive PF VS Defensive PF.

In my example, the offense never moved the ball past the yard to gain for a 1st down. In yours, they did, then subsequently committed a dead ball foul. In effect, they committed a foul just prior to their 1st and 10 play. Should become 1st and 25 (is this not already the case?).

[Coursesuper]

In my example, the offense never moved the ball past the yard to gain for a 1st down. In yours, they did, then subsequently committed a dead ball foul. In effect, they committed a foul just prior to their 1st and 10 play. Should become 1st and 25 (is this not already the case?).

Your example is a live ball foul and so to apply the foul the mark must be from the previous spot. So yes it would be 1st and 25. This isn?t the case with a dead ball foul that happened after the ball had become dead.

[OLJWales]

Defensive stops vs offensive first downs. Defense commits PF and O gets auto first down negating the defensive stop. Offense commits PF after gaining enough for first down but doesn't have to sacrifice their earned 1st and 10. Just the 15 yards. The offense needs to sacrifice their 1sr and 10 if the D has to sacrifice THEIR earned down and distance stop.

3rd & 10 and ball carrier gets a late hit call after getting only 2 yards before getting hit late out of bounds. Auto 1st down plus 15 yds tacked on. I say should be 4th & 8 but 15 yards closer to play dirt. If the offense makes a first down but commits a PF after the play, why do they got to keep their 1st & 10 albeit 15 yds further from paydirt? My point is sometimes a defensive PF call shouldn't be an auto first down. Once an offensive or defensive unit has earned their down and distance, a PF should only affect yardage.

[BoomBoom]

Your example is a live ball foul and so to apply the foul the mark must be from the previous spot. So yes it would be 1st and 25. This isn?t the case with a dead ball foul that happened after the ball had become dead.

Huh? How is my example, that specified a dead ball foul, a live ball foul? And why would a dead ball foul after the play be different?

[BoomBoom]

Defensive stops vs offensive first downs. Defense commits PF and O gets auto first down negating the defensive stop. Offense commits PF after gaining enough for first down but doesn't have to sacrifice their earned 1st and 10. Just the 15 yards. The offense needs to sacrifice their 1sr and 10 if the D has to sacrifice THEIR earned down and distance stop.

The D didn't earn a stop if they committed a penalty.

In both cases, the spot should start with where the play ended, assess the down, then apply the dead ball penalty, then reassess the down.

[OLJWales]

The D didn't earn a stop if they committed a penalty.

In both cases, the spot should start with where the play ended, assess the down, then apply the dead ball penalty, then reassess the down.

They did if the penalty took place after or had nothing to do with the play. Plays over once runner steps out of bounds. Late hit is post play.

[BoomBoom]

They did if the penalty took place after or had nothing to do with the play. Plays over once runner steps out of bounds. Late hit is post play.

The series is only over if the dead ball foul happened after 4th down. In which case the D takes possession. If after 3rd down, the O still gets a 4th down, and if the penalty takes the spot past the 1st down marker......

[OLJWales]

The series is only over if the dead ball foul happened after 4th down. In which case the D takes possession. If after 3rd down, the O still gets a 4th down, and if the penalty takes the spot past the 1st down marker......

So if the runner is stuffed on 4th down but a late hit comes flying in a second later, the O doesn't get an auto 1st down?

[BoomBoom]

So if the runner is stuffed on 4th down but a late hit comes flying in a second later, the O doesn't get an auto 1st down?

Not if I were king. Though I could see keeping the auto 1st down on some penalties both as a deterrent and to prevent free shots.

[OLJWales]

Not if I were king. Though I could see keeping the auto 1st down on some penalties both as a deterrent and to prevent free shots.

Gotcha. A few things of late got me thinkin bout BS defensive flags that "over reward" the O at times if you will. A Defense shouldn't hafta face a 1st and 10 after stuffing a 3rd and 10 or whatevet just cuz of a late hit or other foul unrelated to the play

[Coursesuper]

Huh? How is my example, that specified a dead ball foul, a live ball foul? And why would a dead ball foul after the play be different?

I understood that to say personal foul on an incomplete pass which is a live ball action, not after the play. I misunderstood your post.