Here is what it comes down to with Leach and the offense

[Coach34]

His offense is not getting enough explosive plays- period. It is Wishbone 2020. Southern defenses with their speed plus their willingness to play the 3-8 the whole game has really hampered the effectiveness of the offense.

10+ yardage plays:

2017 Wash St- 17th in the country
2018 Wash St- 17th in the country
2019 Wash St- 6th in the country
2020 Miss State- 54th in the country
2021 Miss State- 65th in the country

20+ yardage plays:

2017 WS- 40th
2018 WS- 70th
2019- Tied 23rd
2020 State- 68th
2021 State- 72nd

We were 13th and 10th in the SEC last year
We are 12th and 9th this year with more experience and about as good of a WR group as we will ever have at State. We havent started facing the good defenses yet.

We will not make double digit drives against SEC defenses drive after drive. We have to change something because this isnt working.

[confucius say]

How do our 2020 numbers in those categories compare to wash st 2012 numbers vs conference opponents? Curious to know if they were as bad as ours in 2020.

[Coach34]

How do our 2020 numbers in those categories compare to wash st 2012 numbers vs conference opponents? Curious to know if they were as bad as ours in 2020.

75th and 51st in 2012
24th and 74th in 2013

We were not as down as Wash State was when Leach took over though.

[confucius say]

75th and 51st in 2012
24th and 74th in 2013

We were not as down as Wash State was when Leach took over though.

Interesting.

As a passing team, we were almost dead last in fbs when he took over. 109th in the country.

[Tbonewannabe]

Interesting.

As a passing team, we were almost dead last in fbs when he took over. 109th in the country.

We were extremely run heavy in Moorhead's scheme especially when it came to SEC games. Kylin Hill was one of the top RBs in the SEC and Moorhead's passing offense wasn't good against the speed of SEC defenses. It is similar to the problems that Leach is having. His offense just isn't successful since it is basically playing 10 vs 11. Shrader and Hill made our offense go but Shrader was a far better scrambler than he was a passing QB.

[CadaverDawg]

Agree.

Hard to have big plays when you rarely throw the ball beyond a 10-15 yard area though. Not that you can't have explosive plays on short routes, but when a defense only feels they have to defend 15 yards, it makes it extremely difficult to bust one. You also need a QB that has an arm that scares the opponent....we don't. And if not, you need a QB that scares the D with his legs so they have to creep up....we don't.

All of this being said, it's not working, and Leach has said he has his system and he's not changing it....Sooooo........wtf are we doing?

[HoopsDawg]

This is what we have bought with our 5 milly a year. We have bought a coach who is married to a system. Adjustments need to be made, but Leach will not look within. He will look to the players and say things like execution. He is not going to change the system that has made him rich and famous. Our next coach needs to be a leader of men, a culture builder, a CEO, not a system guy.

[CarolinaDawgs]

We can be successful..
Leach has to convince Will that it wont be a pick every time you throw it down the field. Its probably tough for Will to trust anything down the field after watch Costello throw it to the wrong team half the year last year.

Playing not to lose aint the same as playing to win. I'm in the camp of **** it if you throw a pick down the field. We need a unapologetic & confident gunslinger. If will could spice in a little bit of that the world is his oyster.

[Maverick91]

The only thing that could save us is if we have Brett Farve.... dude would throw soooooo many picks, but, dang it would be fun to watc him dice up a defense.

[shoeless joe]

It appears that when the chips are down and we HAVE to move the ball in a hurry Rogers is willing to push it down field and has success. This has been the case several time this year. Are we running different plays when this happens? The defenses are still dropping back into coverage so what’s the difference other than Rogers actually throwing the ball down field?

[CarolinaDawgs]

It appears that when the chips are down and we HAVE to move the ball in a hurry Rogers is willing to push it down field and has success. This has been the case several time this year. Are we running different plays when this happens? The defenses are still dropping back into coverage so what’s the difference other than Rogers actually throwing the ball down field?

I honestly think it is because he doesn't have a choice and trusts his instincts. Needs that from the get go. He's just scared to make a mistake rather than to make a play until he is forced to. Only thing that makes sense to me.

[Maverick91]

It appears that when the chips are down and we HAVE to move the ball in a hurry Rogers is willing to push it down field and has success. This has been the case several time this year. Are we running different plays when this happens? The defenses are still dropping back into coverage so what’s the difference other than Rogers actually throwing the ball down field?


That's the difference. Leach gives the QB the ability to read and make a throw. Rodgers is choosing who the ball goes to.

[Dawgology]

It appears that when the chips are down and we HAVE to move the ball in a hurry Rogers is willing to push it down field and has success. This has been the case several time this year. Are we running different plays when this happens? The defenses are still dropping back into coverage so what?s the difference other than Rogers actually throwing the ball down field?

I've noticed this. He's kind of aggressive until we get up 10-14 points on the opponent and then it's like he becomes ultra-conservative, playing not to lose. And I get it....he's young....we have the lead...he doesn't want to be the reason we lose the lead. Unfortunately, that conservatism leads the offense to going flat and results in no real offensive production. Will doesn't turn it back on until we get down then he slings it everywhere because he has nothing to lose at that point. He needs to understand that he has to play that way from the first snap to the last.

He can't just play for good stats he needs to play to win for all 4 quarters.

[AlSwearengen]

The bigger the arm, the smaller the window can be.

[Coach34]

It appears that when the chips are down and we HAVE to move the ball in a hurry Rogers is willing to push it down field and has success. This has been the case several time this year. Are we running different plays when this happens? The defenses are still dropping back into coverage so what’s the difference other than Rogers actually throwing the ball down field?

On the TD we threw in the 4th Q on the post- for some crazy reason the safety to that side jumped the deep out and vacated the middle of the field. Was an easy read and throw. It doesnt look like on TV we are running many post routes during the game like we did then.

[R2Dawg]

On the TD we threw in the 4th Q on the post- for some crazy reason the safety to that side jumped the deep out and vacated the middle of the field. Was an easy read and throw. It doesnt look like on TV we are running many post routes during the game like we did then.

Agree. Most of our route are short crossing routes and curl routes. Not much stretching the field at all. That ain't Will's fault.

A lot of the open WR people see are guys drifting on the backside after the D reacts to a short throw. It looks wide open when you see the play wind up.

[ShotgunDawg]

His offense is not getting enough explosive plays- period. It is Wishbone 2020. Southern defenses with their speed plus their willingness to play the 3-8 the whole game has really hampered the effectiveness of the offense.

10+ yardage plays:

2017 Wash St- 17th in the country
2018 Wash St- 17th in the country
2019 Wash St- 6th in the country
2020 Miss State- 54th in the country
2021 Miss State- 65th in the country

20+ yardage plays:

2017 WS- 40th
2018 WS- 70th
2019- Tied 23rd
2020 State- 68th
2021 State- 72nd

We were 13th and 10th in the SEC last year
We are 12th and 9th this year with more experience and about as good of a WR group as we will ever have at State. We havent started facing the good defenses yet.

We will not make double digit drives against SEC defenses drive after drive. We have to change something because this isnt working.

This is correct and almost 100% due to a lack of mobility and/or arm strength by the QB. Leach has always had more talented QBs than this

[ShotgunDawg]

Agree.

Hard to have big plays when you rarely throw the ball beyond a 10-15 yard area though. Not that you can't have explosive plays on short routes, but when a defense only feels they have to defend 15 yards, it makes it extremely difficult to bust one. You also need a QB that has an arm that scares the opponent....we don't. And if not, you need a QB that scares the D with his legs so they have to creep up....we don't.

All of this being said, it's not working, and Leach has said he has his system and he's not changing it....Sooooo........wtf are we doing?

There is no offense on Earth that will work at a high rate at the D1 level with this QB

[ShotgunDawg]

I honestly think it is because he doesn't have a choice and trusts his instincts. Needs that from the get go. He's just scared to make a mistake rather than to make a play until he is forced to. Only thing that makes sense to me.

Agree. At times, due to being a coach?s kid, I wonder if he?s been over coached

[confucius say]

This is correct and almost 100% due to a lack of mobility and/or arm strength by the QB. Leach has always had more talented QBs than this

So you don't believe I'm recruiting rankings on an individualized level?

[ShotgunDawg]

Agree. Most of our route are short crossing routes and curl routes. Not much stretching the field at all. That ain't Will's fault.

A lot of the open WR people see are guys drifting on the backside after the D reacts to a short throw. It looks wide open when you see the play wind up.

It absolutely is Will?s fault

[R2Dawg]

It absolutely is Will?s fault

Where is that perfect QB we can bring in gun? You got one, even on another team?

Didn't think so.

[ShotgunDawg]

Where is that perfect QB we can bring in gun? You got one, even on another team?

Didn't think so.

Don?t need a perfect one, although Ole Miss has a perfect one, we need accuracy + either mobility or arm strength. You?ve got to have one of those two tools to create explosive plays. It?s the only way to spread the defense out enough.

I?m fine if C34 calls me idiot for this comment, but I seriously don?t think we have scheme problem. I think we have a QB problem in that he lacks the talent to create explosive plays.

[R2Dawg]

Don?t need a perfect one, although Ole Miss has a perfect one, we need accuracy + either mobility or arm strength. You?ve got to have one of those two tools to create explosive plays. It?s the only way to spread the defense out enough.

I?m fine if C34 calls me idiot for this comment, but I seriously don?t think we have scheme problem. I think we have a QB problem in that he lacks the talent to create explosive plays.

Really, OM QB threw like 6 int last year in one game they lost. He is good but he is far from perfect.

You are missing one large gorilla in the room - Corral runs a different system.

Here is some more organizational wisdom from industry proven in case studies. Great people in bad systems are not successful. Average people in great systems can have some success. Great people in great systems has the most success. It really ain't rocket science just common sense but common sense is not very common any more.

[CadaverDawg]

I honestly think it is because he doesn't have a choice and trusts his instincts. Needs that from the get go. He's just scared to make a mistake rather than to make a play until he is forced to. Only thing that makes sense to me.

Ding Ding Ding

[CadaverDawg]

Really, OM QB threw like 6 int last year in one game they lost. He is good but he is far from perfect.

You are missing one large gorilla in the room - Corral runs a different system.

Here is some more organizational wisdom from industry proven in case studies. Great people in bad systems are not successful. Average people in great systems can have some success. Great people in great systems has the most success. It really ain't rocket science just common sense but common sense is not very common any more.

Corral did throw 6 picks in a game. But that fearless gunslinger mentality is also what almost beat Bama last year and will probably beat them this year. Bottom line, if you're in a game where you can throw 6 picks, you weren't winning anyway, so you might as well take your shots.

[ShotgunDawg]

Really, OM QB threw like 6 int last year in one game they lost. He is good but he is far from perfect.

You are missing one large gorilla in the room - Corral runs a different system.

Here is some more organizational wisdom from industry proven in case studies. Great people in bad systems are not successful. Average people in great systems can have some success. Great people in great systems has the most success. It really ain't rocket science just common sense but common sense is not very common any more.

Just wait till the NFL gets their vote on how talented Corral is.

If you can't see it, then I can't help you. Also explains your opinions on Rogers

[ShotgunDawg]

Corral did throw 6 picks in a game. But that fearless gunslinger mentality is also what almost beat Bama last year and will probably beat them this year. Bottom line, if you're in a game where you can throw 6 picks, you weren't winning anyway, so you might as well take your shots.

The gunslinger mentality helps, but it's about tools. Arm strength, mobility, quickness, release quickness. Corral is near the top of the scale in all those.

[CadaverDawg]

The gunslinger mentality helps, but it's about tools. Arm strength, mobility, quickness, release quickness. Corral is near the top of the scale in all those.

He's got a 10 cent head though. Can't deny that

[Rawdawg]

Don?t need a perfect one, although Ole Miss has a perfect one, we need accuracy + either mobility or arm strength. You?ve got to have one of those two tools to create explosive plays. It?s the only way to spread the defense out enough.

I?m fine if C34 calls me idiot for this comment, but I seriously don?t think we have scheme problem. I think we have a QB problem in that he lacks the talent to create explosive plays.

What Will lacks in ability he can make up for with timing and decisiveness. In the past if Leach has a QB that is at or above 10 yards per completion his offense is successful. If Will hits the 10 ypc mark against memphis that?s another 66 yards of offense and a win.

[Rawdawg]

What Will lacks in ability he can make up for with timing and decisiveness. In the past if Leach has a QB that is at or above 10 yards per completion his offense is successful. If Will hits the 10 ypc mark against memphis that?s another 66 yards of offense and a win.

He can make up that extra yard or so by getting the ball out quicker to the backs and making the right reads early in his progressions.

[ShotgunDawg]

He's got a 10 cent head though. Can't deny that

I honestly haven't see a problem since the Arkansas game last year. Seems to me he's grown up

[ShotgunDawg]

What Will lacks in ability he can make up for with timing and decisiveness. In the past if Leach has a QB that is at or above 10 yards per completion his offense is successful. If Will hits the 10 ypc mark against memphis that?s another 66 yards of offense and a win.

He can make up ground for sure, but I don't think a defense is ever going to respect his skill set by playing him differently

[ShotgunDawg]

He can make up that extra yard or so by getting the ball out quicker to the backs and making the right reads early in his progressions.

Maybe. the offense can only go so fast & it usually requires quicker, twitchier players to play that fast. We all want Will to play faster, but frankly I'm not sure he's capable of playing faster

[BuckyIsAB****]

This is correct and almost 100% due to a lack of mobility and/or arm strength by the QB. Leach has always had more talented QBs than this

I really think you just throw shit at the wall and see if it sticks.

Gardner and Will are pretty much the same kid. Talent wise all of it. From someone who knows both extremely well, take your L on this and move on. Listen to someone who knows. I wont argue with you about baseball pitches you need to drop this if you want any credibility that I know you crave on here. Leach has won with Anthony Gordon and Graham Harrell. Both of them are extremely like Will and Gardner. Just stop

[BuckyIsAB****]

His offense is not getting enough explosive plays- period. It is Wishbone 2020. Southern defenses with their speed plus their willingness to play the 3-8 the whole game has really hampered the effectiveness of the offense.

10+ yardage plays:

2017 Wash St- 17th in the country
2018 Wash St- 17th in the country
2019 Wash St- 6th in the country
2020 Miss State- 54th in the country
2021 Miss State- 65th in the country

20+ yardage plays:

2017 WS- 40th
2018 WS- 70th
2019- Tied 23rd
2020 State- 68th
2021 State- 72nd

We were 13th and 10th in the SEC last year
We are 12th and 9th this year with more experience and about as good of a WR group as we will ever have at State. We havent started facing the good defenses yet.

We will not make double digit drives against SEC defenses drive after drive. We have to change something because this isnt working.

We agree on this. We have to do more than we are doing. Nobody is going to go 16 plays and score consistently. those are great drives awesome to watch and you love it when it happens. But the law of averages doesnt allow you to do it time after time. You will eventually screw something up. And we do that a lot

[BeardoMSU]

f you're in a game where you can throw 6 picks, you weren't winning anyway, so you might as well take your shots.

What's crazy is they still had a chance to win that game, lol.

[R2Dawg]

We agree on this. We have to do more than we are doing. Nobody is going to go 16 plays and score consistently. those are great drives awesome to watch and you love it when it happens. But the law of averages doesnt allow you to do it time after time. You will eventually screw something up. And we do that a lot

Yep that is just it. No team can throw the ball 60 times a game and not expect some bad things to happen on a % of them. Only 33% are good on every throw and I could argue less than that if you count sacks.

[R2Dawg]

Corral did throw 6 picks in a game. But that fearless gunslinger mentality is also what almost beat Bama last year and will probably beat them this year. Bottom line, if you're in a game where you can throw 6 picks, you weren't winning anyway, so you might as well take your shots.

The point was gun said Corral is perfect but 6 picks says he ain't. I didn't say pushing it isn't sometimes good. We had a guy do that once too.

[ShotgunDawg]

Gardner and Will are pretty much the same kid.

Statements like this make me realize why you have the opinions you do. I don't blame you anymore. I understand now that I know what you're seeing

https://c.tenor.com/mhyTHp7X3kUAAAAd/shocked-eyes-wide-open.gif

[ShotgunDawg]

Same guy folks. Nothing to see here


https://youtu.be/XV4VDxQCTd0

[ShotgunDawg]

I really think you just throw shit at the wall and see if it sticks.

Gardner and Will are pretty much the same kid. Talent wise all of it. From someone who knows both extremely well, take your L on this and move on. Listen to someone who knows. I wont argue with you about baseball pitches you need to drop this if you want any credibility that I know you crave on here. Leach has won with Anthony Gordon and Graham Harrell. Both of them are extremely like Will and Gardner. Just stop

You're either blind or his father. There is no way anyone that watches 10 min of football could make up such bullshit as this. Complete & udder disgraceful talent evaluation here

[confucius say]

The gunslinger mentality helps, but it's about tools. Arm strength, mobility, quickness, release quickness. Corral is near the top of the scale in all those.

The two most important tools for an nfl qb are accuracy and decision making. That will determine if corral is a perennial pro bowler or just another guy once he is drafted.

[confucius say]

I honestly haven't see a problem since the Arkansas game last year. Seems to me he's grown up

He threw 5 picks the last game of the regular season in 2020. He does seem to be protecting the ball better so far this year though. Granted their SOS is 101 in college football, so we shall see next week.

[ShotgunDawg]

The two most important tools for an nfl qb are accuracy and decision making.

Yes as long as they have NFL level arm strength & athleticism. If they don't have those two things, they never play in the NFL to begin with. That's why you don't hear much about it

Tyson Lee was pretty accurate & made good decisions, but there is a reason he didn't play in the NFL. Same with Tyler Russell.

[confucius say]

You're either blind or his father. There is no way anyone that watches 10 min of football could make up such bullshit as this. Complete & udder disgraceful talent evaluation here

Did you watch Minshew play when he was 19? Serious question. Bc I did. His arm was way better as a 5th year senior, when he was finally able to get on the field. There's not a penny worth of difference in the two at 19. In fact, I would say will is ahead of where Minshew was. Hopefully he will continue to develop.

[ShotgunDawg]

Did you watch Minshew play when he was 19? Serious question. Bc I did. His arm was way better as a 5th year senior, when he was finally able to get on the field. There's not a penny worth of difference in the two at 19. In fact, I would say will is ahead of where Minshew was. Hopefully he will continue to develop.

Just different animals. Minshew is quicker, stronger, & much thicker lower half with a lower center of gravity & a quicker arm with more lower half leg drive.

They aren't close to the same level of athlete or have similar instincts

Look how much quicker his feet are & how much stronger his body is. The ball pops out of his hand due to his twitch


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSh7482beh4

[confucius say]

Yes as long as they have NFL level arm strength & athleticism. If they don't have those two things, they never play in the NFL to begin with. That's why you don't hear much about it

Tyson Lee was pretty accurate & made good decisions, but there is a reason he didn't play in the NFL. Same with Tyler Russell.

NFL arm strength and qb-sufficient athleticism is a dime a dozen. Their are hundreds of players all over America with both. Their are about 1% who have the accuracy and who can process information at an nfl level.

I like Tyson and Tyler so I will not comment except to say neither had nfl accuracy or decision making.

[basedog]

Not completely buying Gun. Rogers isn't the major problem. It's the dang scheme The Pirate coaches. Nobody in the Sec throw the ball 60 plus times! Also not having or playing a TE espically in short yardage and goal line is retarded!
O e reason we don't run block very well the OL is conditioned to drop step pass protection. No wonder we are a soft on offense.
Rogers is still young, plus the Pirate could have brought in a Juco. Leach isn't the answer.

[ShotgunDawg]

Not completely buying Gun. Rogers isn't the major problem. It's the dang scheme The Pirate coaches. Nobody in the Sec throw the ball 60 plus times! Also not having or playing a TE espically in short yardage and goal line is retarded!
O e reason we don't run block very well the OL is conditioned to drop step pass protection. No wonder we are a soft on offense.
Rogers is still young, plus the Pirate could have brought in a Juco. Leach isn't the answer.

100% disagree.

The way the defense is playing us is what is dictating play calling & the way they are playing us is due to limitations at QB.

The looks to run the ball more would be there with a better QB. The defense would be far more spread out

[basedog]

100% disagree.

The way the defense is playing us is what is dictating play calling & the way they are playing us is due to limitations at QB.

The looks to run the ball more would be there with a better QB. The defense would be far more spread out

As far as a running Qb in The Pirates scheme, he had one who he turned into a wideout, then transferred out. You coach players up and u have to find things QB are comfortable to handle. The Pirate has no imagination on his 3x5 play card. Rogers isn't a runner, I understand what he is or what he isn't.
Tell me why we can't run black 3 defensive lineman?
You have your opinion as I have mine but blaming Rogers isn't his problem. It's The Pirates problem.

But carry on Gun, I just ain't buying. We are soft on offense like the two conferences the Pirate coached in. Doesn't work in the Sec. players are too fast and physical. We lack this in the Air Raid.

[ShotgunDawg]

As far as a running Qb in The Pirates scheme, he had one who he turned into a wideout, then transferred out. You coach players up and u have to find things QB are comfortable to handle. The Pirate has no imagination on his 3x5 play card. Rogers isn't a runner, I understand what he is or what he isn't.
Tell me why we can't run black 3 defensive lineman?
You have your opinion as I have mine but blaming Rogers isn't his problem. It's The Pirates problem.

But carry on Gun, I just ain't buying. We are soft on offense like the two conferences the Pirate coached in. Doesn't work in the Sec. players are too fast and physical. We lack this in the Air Raid.

When I saw mobile QB, I'm not necessarily talking about a guy that runs the football. I also talking about a guy that can quickly move around in the pocket to create throwing lanes & buy time

[Percho]

Ding Ding Ding

I agree. I believe if he ever gains confidence in himself he will be a pretty good QB. I also believe it will take a little more time to gain that confidence but I pray it comes.

[CadaverDawg]

Just different animals. Minshew is quicker, stronger, & much thicker lower half with a lower center of gravity & a quicker arm with more lower half leg drive.

They aren't close to the same level of athlete or have similar instincts

Look how much quicker his feet are & how much stronger his body is. The ball pops out of his hand due to his twitch


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSh7482beh4

I only watched the first 2-3 minutes of that video, and it doesn't help your argument.

[CadaverDawg]

I agree. I believe if he ever gains confidence in himself he will be a pretty good QB. I also believe it will take a little more time to gain that confidence but I pray it comes.

Yeah, I don't think Leach's offense will work at MSU, but the only hopes of it working require a confident QB that isn't scared to let it rip. Rogers is QB'ing like a freshman that is trying to be a game manager and earn the job. You have it, son...now go take advantage of it. Don't let your entire SEC career be a regret bc you chose to take the easy check downs instead of unleashing your skills.

Bottom line is Will is going to eventually lose his job if he doesn't start playing to win instead of playing not to lose. Same goes for Leach. I'm not saying Will is going to lose it this year, but he will lose it in the next year or two if he doesn't stop playing scared.

Id love to see him take those wide open runs he gets multiple times a game too. Take what they give you and slide if you want...that's fine. But make them respect you and that they can't give you 8 yards of grass and you not take it over a 5 yard dump off. If he would play (and Leach would coach) like they do when we fall behind by 14 to a G5 team all the time, we'd be hell to deal with. Stop playing chicken shit ball and go out there and punch someone in the mouth.

I don't hate Will, in fact I really want him to succeed bc he seems like a great kid. I just want to see him stop playing teacher's pet, grow up, and slam his fist on the table and say dammit this is my team, and im going to go out there and show the country who Will F'n Rogers is. It may not work out, but as it stands, he's going to be one of the most efficient losers in SEC history, and that blows compared to being the gunslinger that leaves it all out there and lets the chips fall where they may while giving his best shot and letting it rip.

But that's just me.

[ShotgunDawg]

I only watched the first 2-3 minutes of that video, and it doesn't help your argument.

That?s because you don?t know what you?re looking at or what to look for. You?re looking at how he plays rather than his physical ingredients.

You guys make me want to pull my hair out because you can?t see it. I don?t blame you, but you guys can?t see it.

[dawgman15]

That?s because you don?t know what you?re looking at or what to look for. You?re looking at how he plays rather than his physical ingredients.

You guys make me want to pull my hair out because you can?t see it. I don?t blame you, but you guys can?t see it.

Gardner is shorter than Will and most likely slower. Also the video you are referencing shows Gardner in his 3rd year of college ball. By this point Gardner would have gone through 3 springs and his third year in a weight program since Gardner graduated in December of 2014 and early enrolled. You are a jackass who has no idea what he is talking about. You come on here and throw shit at the wall and you keep on piling it on. If you had this almighty football eye then please tell me why you aren't out there coaching against Saban?

[ShotgunDawg]

Gardner is shorter than Will and most likely slower. Also the video you are referencing shows Gardner in his 3rd year of college ball. By this point Gardner would have gone through 3 springs and his third year in a weight program since Gardner graduated in December of 2014 and early enrolled. You are a jackass who has no idea what he is talking about. You come on here and throw shit at the wall and you keep on piling it on. If you had this almighty football eye then please tell me why you aren't out there coaching against Saban?

Sigh.

[dawgman15]

Are you sad no one buys into the shit you spew, you must have a miserable life

[Johnson85]

This is what we have bought with our 5 milly a year. We have bought a coach who is married to a system. Adjustments need to be made, but Leach will not look within. He will look to the players and say things like execution. He is not going to change the system that has made him rich and famous. Our next coach needs to be a leader of men, a culture builder, a CEO, not a system guy.

In fairness to leach, execution will beat Memphis, La Tech, and NCSt. He may need to adjust the system to beat better teams, but we should be able to execute well enough to beat those three and not need a miracle comeback or be subject to the refs 17ing us with one or two calls.

I don't mind him wanting to see us execute at a reasonable level before making changes to a system he believes will work. But he needs to figure out why we are so shitty at execution after 12 games. If he can't figure out why we suck at execution and fix it in the next few games, he needs to be making adjustments now.

[PMDawg]

Sigh.

No flame. Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone in this argument. Just curious - what are your credentials that give you expertise in this field? The answer to this question may be extremely helpful in causing less of these arguments.

[Tbonewannabe]

In fairness to leach, execution will beat Memphis, La Tech, and NCSt. He may need to adjust the system to beat better teams, but we should be able to execute well enough to beat those three and not need a miracle comeback or be subject to the refs 17ing us with one or two calls.

I don't mind him wanting to see us execute at a reasonable level before making changes to a system he believes will work. But he needs to figure out why we are so shitty at execution after 12 games. If he can't figure out why we suck at execution and fix it in the next few games, he needs to be making adjustments now.

Also, if it takes a high level execution to even put up average points against shitty defenses (the only defense that we have put up more points than any opponent is NC State) then what will happen in the SEC.

Moorhead's offense was putting up 50-60 points on shitty defenses like La Tech and Memphis and couldn't do shit in the SEC. Leach isn't even doing that. If we go another year against SEC defenses looking like a monkey 17ing a football, I think that is enough proof that Leach's offense just doesn't work against SEC defensive speed. Same shit as Moorhead. SEC speeds up decision making and most college QBs aren't equipped to run it successfully. If you need a NFL level starting QB to run your offense then MSU doesn't need it. We have exactly one QB in MSU history that fits that bill.

For everyone saying Leach's offense has open receivers, so did Moorhead's offense. It doesn't matter when the QB can't process the decisions fast enough to get them the ball. I will say that Will is young so he should get faster in where to go with the ball but if you can't do it against Memphis who gave up almost 60 points the week before to Ark St then you damn sure aren't doing it against Bama, A&M, or LSU. I will say LSU is kind of in a spiral so this weekend could give people hope like fool's gold.

[Maroonthirteen]

Also, if it takes a high level execution to even put up average points against shitty defenses (the only defense that we have put up more points than any opponent is NC State) then what will happen in the SEC.

Moorhead's offense was putting up 50-60 points on shitty defenses like La Tech and Memphis and couldn't do shit in the SEC. Leach isn't even doing that. If we go another year against SEC defenses looking like a monkey 17ing a football, I think that is enough proof that Leach's offense just doesn't work against SEC defensive speed. Same shit as Moorhead. SEC speeds up decision making and most college QBs aren't equipped to run it successfully. If you need a NFL level starting QB to run your offense then MSU doesn't need it. We have exactly one QB in MSU history that fits that bill.

For everyone saying Leach's offense has open receivers, so did Moorhead's offense. It doesn't matter when the QB can't process the decisions fast enough to get them the ball. I will say that Will is young so he should get faster in where to go with the ball but if you can't do it against Memphis who gave up almost 60 points the week before to Ark St then you damn sure aren't doing it against Bama, A&M, or LSU. I will say LSU is kind of in a spiral so this weekend could give people hope like fool's gold.

Boom. Exactly. Arron Rodgers missed an open guy last night. It happens.

Also, last time we played Memphis in Memphis, Chris Relf was completing 50+ yard TD passes and beat the brakes off Memphis, 59-14.

[Maverick91]

Yeah, I don't think Leach's offense will work at MSU, but the only hopes of it working require a confident QB that isn't scared to let it rip. Rogers is QB'ing like a freshman that is trying to be a game manager and earn the job. You have it, son...now go take advantage of it. Don't let your entire SEC career be a regret bc you chose to take the easy check downs instead of unleashing your skills.

Bottom line is Will is going to eventually lose his job if he doesn't start playing to win instead of playing not to lose. Same goes for Leach. I'm not saying Will is going to lose it this year, but he will lose it in the next year or two if he doesn't stop playing scared.

Id love to see him take those wide open runs he gets multiple times a game too. Take what they give you and slide if you want...that's fine. But make them respect you and that they can't give you 8 yards of grass and you not take it over a 5 yard dump off. If he would play (and Leach would coach) like they do when we fall behind by 14 to a G5 team all the time, we'd be hell to deal with. Stop playing chicken shit ball and go out there and punch someone in the mouth.

I don't hate Will, in fact I really want him to succeed bc he seems like a great kid. I just want to see him stop playing teacher's pet, grow up, and slam his fist on the table and say dammit this is my team, and im going to go out there and show the country who Will F'n Rogers is. It may not work out, but as it stands, he's going to be one of the most efficient losers in SEC history, and that blows compared to being the gunslinger that leaves it all out there and lets the chips fall where they may while giving his best shot and letting it rip.

But that's just me.

Well, I am really fired up to send my emails today. Was feeling pretty down about sitting at my desk, but, dang I'm going to fire these emails out like no one else. lol Good pep talk, couldn't agree more.

[Maverick91]

Are you sad no one buys into the shit you spew, you must have a miserable life

Bro, that's a low hanging fruit comment, not needed. Gun might throw a lot at the wall, but, that is the point of these boards and thank God we have these boards. We can all grip, moan, and complain to our little hearts desire, because we all know if we sent an email to Cohen he ant going to reply back.

[dawgman15]

Bro, that's a low hanging fruit comment, not needed. Gun might throw a lot at the wall, but, that is the point of these boards and thank God we have these boards. We can all grip, moan, and complain to our little hearts desire, because we all know if we sent an email to Cohen he ant going to reply back.

It might not be needed but neither is half of the things that Shotgun says on here that he claims is fact.

[Maverick91]

It might not be needed but neither is half of the things that Shotgun says on here that he claims is fact.

You aren't going to get a disagreement from me on that, credentials would help as PMDowg asked a few posts up. But, again that is kind of the point of these boards, to throw crap at a wall and see who smells it. lol

[CadaverDawg]

That?s because you don?t know what you?re looking at or what to look for. You?re looking at how he plays rather than his physical ingredients.

You guys make me want to pull my hair out because you can?t see it. I don?t blame you, but you guys can?t see it.

Dude, get over yourself. You are not a QB guru, and acting like you know more than I do or anyone else on this board is laughable. You're embarrassing yourself with this over the top agenda about Rogers.

[CadaverDawg]

Well, I am really fired up to send my emails today. Was feeling pretty down about sitting at my desk, but, dang I'm going to fire these emails out like no one else. lol Good pep talk, couldn't agree more.

Haha sorry I got in my feels I guess

[dawgman15]

Dude, get over yourself. You are not a QB guru, and acting like you know more than I do or anyone else on this board is laughable. You're embarrassing yourself with this over the top agenda about Rogers.

I almost feel like he's trolling at this point

[Maverick91]

Haha sorry I got in my feels I guess

lol

[BrunswickDawg]

I almost feel like he's trolling at this point

Live look at the Shotgun QB Evaluation Camp

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-28-2019/uTKSbF.gif

[Jack Lambert]

No flame. Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone in this argument. Just curious - what are your credentials that give you expertise in this field? The answer to this question may be extremely helpful in causing less of these arguments.

He listens to Bo Bounds. "Come on Man"*********

[Johnson85]

Also, if it takes a high level execution to even put up average points against shitty defenses (the only defense that we have put up more points than any opponent is NC State) then what will happen in the SEC.

Moorhead's offense was putting up 50-60 points on shitty defenses like La Tech and Memphis and couldn't do shit in the SEC. Leach isn't even doing that. If we go another year against SEC defenses looking like a monkey 17ing a football, I think that is enough proof that Leach's offense just doesn't work against SEC defensive speed. Same shit as Moorhead. SEC speeds up decision making and most college QBs aren't equipped to run it successfully. If you need a NFL level starting QB to run your offense then MSU doesn't need it. We have exactly one QB in MSU history that fits that bill.

For everyone saying Leach's offense has open receivers, so did Moorhead's offense. It doesn't matter when the QB can't process the decisions fast enough to get them the ball. I will say that Will is young so he should get faster in where to go with the ball but if you can't do it against Memphis who gave up almost 60 points the week before to Ark St then you damn sure aren't doing it against Bama, A&M, or LSU. I will say LSU is kind of in a spiral so this weekend could give people hope like fool's gold.

It doesn't take a high level of execution to put up average points against shitty defenses. Leach offenses have routinely done that. We aren't executing for shit is the problem. I don't know why that is; I hope to hell Leach knows.

It certainly might take an unrealistic level of execution to score against good SEC defenses, in which case we will have made a mistake giving the air raid a shot. But if Leach all the sudden can't get an offense to execute well enough to score against La Tech, Memphis, and NCSt, then the problem is Leach has either forgotten how to coach or has quit coaching. Those are defenses that he has routinely lit up over the years.

[Jack Lambert]

The whole secret to our Offense in being success full is, "Play like there is only 7 minutes left in the 4th quarter the entire game"

[Coach34]

Think about this also:

Leach has had the benefit of the transfer portal here at State. He didnt have that luxury at TT or Wazzu

[ShotgunDawg]

Dude, get over yourself. You are not a QB guru, and acting like you know more than I do or anyone else on this board is laughable. You're embarrassing yourself with this over the top agenda about Rogers.

No I'm not. You guys have no clue what you're looking at. It's so obvious.

[R2Dawg]

Live look at the Shotgun QB Evaluation Camp

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-28-2019/uTKSbF.gif

Ha, Ha good one; bout spit my lunch out on that one.

[CadaverDawg]

No I'm not. You guys have no clue what you're looking at. It's so obvious.

If your response to being the only one on an island is "I'm the smart guy, and everyone else is just blind and stupid"....it may be time to look in the mirror, bruh.

[ShotgunDawg]

If your response to being the only one on an island is "I'm the smart guy, and everyone else is just blind and stupid"....it may be time to look in the mirror, bruh.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You guys don't see it and are wrong.

[Jarius]

It is hard to see how anyone can watch our games and come away with any other opinion than we have a major problem at quarterback. There are obviously some relatives or extremely close friends of Wills on here that are taking up for him and I?m sure Will is an excellent person but he is an awful quarterback right now. If he does not start throwing the ball down the field we are going to go 4-8.

[CadaverDawg]

That's exactly what I'm saying. You guys don't see it and are wrong.

Ok Uncle Rico. Go throw a football over them mountains and relive your glory days. I can't believe you have the time to grace us with your presence in between training NFL QB's how to excel.

[ShotgunDawg]

Ok Uncle Rico. Go throw a football over them mountains and relive your glory days. I can't believe you have the time to grace us with your presence in between training NFL QB's how to excel.

Ok. You've been presented the correct information. I can't help you any further.

[dawgman15]

Ok. You've been presented the correct information. I can't help you any further.

Uncle Rico would you please teach me your ways so that one day I too may be as good as you in evaluating talent?

[FISHDAWG]

Live look at the Shotgun QB Evaluation Camp

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-28-2019/uTKSbF.gif

Tried to Rep you on this... an enormous lol

[Percho]

Tried to Rep you on this... an enormous lol

It looks like U Rico got as good as he is through practice, practice, practice.

Methinks, Will, will get better and better as he plays. If he doesn't, we had better pray one of the others behind him, through practice, can pass him.

[Dak Holliday]

I have heard CML?s offense described as a death by papercuts. Annoys DCs with underneath stuff hoping they move to stop it, making them vulnerable in the middle and up top. That coach that OM had that?s now at UNC runs a variation of AirRaid and if you saw any of his games at OM, they stacked up stats from 20-20, but couldn?t score when the field compressed in the red zone. If Tamu didn?t hit for a long pass, they couldn?t score. The stats can be deceiving. Much like OM in a similar system, our stats look great on paper, but don?t really benefit us where it counts. I hate to say it, but I just don?t think one dimensional football can work unless everyone is one dimensional and they aren?t.

[maroonmania]

It doesn't take a high level of execution to put up average points against shitty defenses. Leach offenses have routinely done that. We aren't executing for shit is the problem. I don't know why that is; I hope to hell Leach knows.

It certainly might take an unrealistic level of execution to score against good SEC defenses, in which case we will have made a mistake giving the air raid a shot. But if Leach all the sudden can't get an offense to execute well enough to score against La Tech, Memphis, and NCSt, then the problem is Leach has either forgotten how to coach or has quit coaching. Those are defenses that he has routinely lit up over the years.

Exactly, in 3 games this year against non-SEC defenses, we have averaged 100 yards and 8.5 points less per game than the WSU offense did for the entire season in 2019 (Leach's final year there). After we play the next 3 games (LSU, TA&M and Bama) that disparity is going to get much worse. Now PAC 12 defenses aren't great but most are every bit as good or better than average CUSA and AAC defenses. So the problem has nothing to do with the scheme not working against SEC defenses. Problem is that our offense is just not executing the scheme the same way or at the same level it has under Leach at his other stops. I mean Cohen is not a total idiot. We would not have hired Leach if the air raid scheme had significantly ramped down in effectiveness during Leach's last few years at WSU. Another of our problems is offensive penalties. We are averaging just over 400 yards/game so far but that is against the backdrop of around 80-90 penalty yards per game with a bunch of holding calls. Factor that in and we are really gaining no more than around 350 yards per game. That ain't gonna cut it.

[Tbonewannabe]

Exactly, in 3 games this year against non-SEC defenses, we have averaged 100 yards and 8.5 points less per game than the WSU offense did for the entire season in 2019 (Leach's final year there). After we play the next 3 games (LSU, TA&M and Bama) that disparity is going to get much worse. Now PAC 12 defenses aren't great but most are every big as good or better than average CUSA and AAC defenses. So the problem has nothing to do with the scheme not working against SEC defenses. Problem is that our offense is just not executing the scheme the same way or at the same level it has under Leach at his other stops. I mean Cohen is not a total idiot. We would not have hired Leach if the air raid scheme had significantly ramped down in effectiveness during Leach's last few years at WSU. Another of our problems is offensive penalties. We are averaging just over 400 yards/game so far but that is against the backdrop of around 80-90 penalty yards per game with a bunch of holding calls. Factor that in and we are really gaining no more than around 350 yards per game. That ain't gonna cut it.

We should have a little wiggle room playing a shitastic Memphis defense though. If your scheme doesn't work unless it is ran really close to perfection then it probably won't work when SEC defenses increase the speed that you have to operate your offense. That was Moorhead's whole problem. When he had time to operate, his offense was putting up 500-600 yards of offense and 50-60 points. When the QB had 1-2 seconds less to make his decision, then we were putting up 200 yards and 15-20 points.

This seems like the exact same issue only Leach requires even more precision of his offense. I don't know the answer because Rogers had plenty of time last week and the Oline blocked pretty well and we still sucked on offense. We didn't have a ton of dropped balls either. So it is either the QB just doesn't understand where to go, is afraid to throw it, or the windows just aren't there and it is forcing him to check down every 17ing time. The windows are only going to get smaller so hopefully it is one of the other issues or this is going to be a loooooooooonnnnnnnnggggggg year.

[maroonmania]

We should have a little wiggle room playing a shitastic Memphis defense though. If your scheme doesn't work unless it is ran really close to perfection then it probably won't work when SEC defenses increase the speed that you have to operate your offense. That was Moorhead's whole problem. When he had time to operate, his offense was putting up 500-600 yards of offense and 50-60 points. When the QB had 1-2 seconds less to make his decision, then we were putting up 200 yards and 15-20 points.

This seems like the exact same issue only Leach requires even more precision of his offense. I don't know the answer because Rogers had plenty of time last week and the Oline blocked pretty well and we still sucked on offense. We didn't have a ton of dropped balls either. So it is either the QB just doesn't understand where to go, is afraid to throw it, or the windows just aren't there and it is forcing him to check down every 17ing time. The windows are only going to get smaller so hopefully it is one of the other issues or this is going to be a loooooooooonnnnnnnnggggggg year.

I can't tell you precision this or precision that. All I know is that in Leach's past stops, his offenses would have put up 40+ points against a defense like Memphis in its sleep. Now his defense might have given up 50 but scoring would not have been a problem. I can't give you all the reasons for what the big differences are but our OL play right now is subpar and Leach normally doesn't play a QB as young as Rogers is but we really have no choice.

[Irondawg]

You guys remember the spring game and how Abraham seemed to push the ball downfield more than Will?

Will had better stats but Jack looked to run the offense better on the eye test. Leach puts a lot of the calls and reads on the QB. I?d guess we probably put more responsibility on the QB than just about any other P5 program.

For example OM seems to be a one or maybe two read program. The play call determines where the call is going the vast majority of the time.

Our qbs have much more freedom to audible, etc. when we hired him there were a ton of articles posted talking about Leach and QBs and how the QB had all the responsibility. Leach just wants them to trust their eyes.

It would be interesting to hear right now what % of the time we feel we are making the ?best? throw choice on any given play. That tells you if the offense is working or not. If the film is showing that we are actually doing that a lot then the scheme had a problem to fix. If the film shows we are constantly missing open guys for more yardage then it?s a qb eye problem.

[Maverick91]

You guys remember the spring game and how Abraham seemed to push the ball downfield more than Will?

Will had better stats but Jack looked to run the offense better on the eye test. Leach puts a lot of the calls and reads on the QB. I?d guess we probably put more responsibility on the QB than just about any other P5 program.

For example OM seems to be a one or maybe two read program. The play call determines where the call is going the vast majority of the time.

Our qbs have much more freedom to audible, etc. when we hired him there were a ton of articles posted talking about Leach and QBs and how the QB had all the responsibility. Leach just wants them to trust their eyes.

It would be interesting to hear right now what % of the time we feel we are making the ?best? throw choice on any given play. That tells you if the offense is working or not. If the film is showing that we are actually doing that a lot then the scheme had a problem to fix. If the film shows we are constantly missing open guys for more yardage then it?s a qb eye problem.

Facts!

[Tbonewannabe]

You guys remember the spring game and how Abraham seemed to push the ball downfield more than Will?

Will had better stats but Jack looked to run the offense better on the eye test. Leach puts a lot of the calls and reads on the QB. I?d guess we probably put more responsibility on the QB than just about any other P5 program.

For example OM seems to be a one or maybe two read program. The play call determines where the call is going the vast majority of the time.

Our qbs have much more freedom to audible, etc. when we hired him there were a ton of articles posted talking about Leach and QBs and how the QB had all the responsibility. Leach just wants them to trust their eyes.

It would be interesting to hear right now what % of the time we feel we are making the ?best? throw choice on any given play. That tells you if the offense is working or not. If the film is showing that we are actually doing that a lot then the scheme had a problem to fix. If the film shows we are constantly missing open guys for more yardage then it?s a qb eye problem.

Very true. It basically boils down to a QB problem or scheme problem. Rogers can develop but the scheme is what it is. We will see what Rogers 2nd year in the SEC looks like. If we don't see actual progress then it is probably a huge Red Flag.

[BuckyIsAB****]

It is hard to see how anyone can watch our games and come away with any other opinion than we have a major problem at quarterback. There are obviously some relatives or extremely close friends of Wills on here that are taking up for him and I?m sure Will is an excellent person but he is an awful quarterback right now. If he does not start throwing the ball down the field we are going to go 4-8.

Wanna bet?

[BuckyIsAB****]

You're either blind or his father. There is no way anyone that watches 10 min of football could make up such bullshit as this. Complete & udder disgraceful talent evaluation here

Nah. Im the smart guy and you are just blind. I know ball. Especially in MS. Take it for what its worth to you.

An Udder is on a cow btw Kiper Jr Jr

[Commercecomet24]

Nah. Im the smart guy and you are just blind. I know ball. Especially in MS. Take it for what its worth to you.

An Udder is on a cow btw Kiper Jr Jr

Love the udder catch, now that's funny!

[R2Dawg]

We should have a little wiggle room playing a shitastic Memphis defense though. If your scheme doesn't work unless it is ran really close to perfection then it probably won't work when SEC defenses increase the speed that you have to operate your offense. That was Moorhead's whole problem. When he had time to operate, his offense was putting up 500-600 yards of offense and 50-60 points. When the QB had 1-2 seconds less to make his decision, then we were putting up 200 yards and 15-20 points.

This seems like the exact same issue only Leach requires even more precision of his offense. I don't know the answer because Rogers had plenty of time last week and the Oline blocked pretty well and we still sucked on offense. We didn't have a ton of dropped balls either. So it is either the QB just doesn't understand where to go, is afraid to throw it, or the windows just aren't there and it is forcing him to check down every 17ing time. The windows are only going to get smaller so hopefully it is one of the other issues or this is going to be a loooooooooonnnnnnnnggggggg year.

Totally agree.

[R2Dawg]

I can't tell you precision this or precision that. All I know is that in Leach's past stops, his offenses would have put up 40+ points against a defense like Memphis in its sleep. Now his defense might have given up 50 but scoring would not have been a problem. I can't give you all the reasons for what the big differences are but our OL play right now is subpar and Leach normally doesn't play a QB as young as Rogers is but we really have no choice.

So we were a little shy of 40, maybe that is the QB piece but we should have scored 60 on Memphis. Ark St. scored 50. This O sucks and is broken. It is a major fixer upper at this point that coat of paint (new QB) ain't gonna fix.

[Dak Holliday]

Sometimes when one is so convinced of the infallibility of his system that he created, he?s unwilling to acknowledge the fact that in order to work, the system needs a certain parameter from the other party involved. By changing, he would have to admit that it?s not perfect, so if the past is any indicator, he?s not going to do this. It?s easier to blame the execution than to admit it?s the scheme and it?s rigidity.

[SheltonChoked]

75th and 51st in 2012
24th and 74th in 2013

We were not as down as Wash State was when Leach took over though.

We weren't?

Did WSU have a freshman starting at QB in year 1? DId WSU have mostly Freshmen WR in year 2?

Just because our record was better they year prior, does not equal us being in better shape for the offense as WSU was.

But that doesn't fit your "pet name for MSU coach" schick.

[Jarius]

Wanna bet?

Do I want to bet that if Will doesn’t start throwing the ball down the field more often that we go 4-8? Yes I do. Name your price.

[Bass Chaser]

Think about this also:

Leach has had the benefit of the transfer portal here at State. He didnt have that luxury at TT or Wazzu

Sorry but you're wrong on this one. That's how he got Minshew.

[Bass Chaser]

Fyi...Shotgun is Colonel Kang. He posts the same shit on every board.

[dawgman15]

Why are tight ends not utilized in the air raid offense? I would think that they could be a major component for the air raid since they can block on the line as well

[HancockCountyDog]

We weren't?

Did WSU have a freshman starting at QB in year 1? DId WSU have mostly Freshmen WR in year 2?

Just because our record was better they year prior, does not equal us being in better shape for the offense as WSU was.

But that doesn't fit your "pet name for MSU coach" schick.

Our team had an NFL RB, a solid OL, a transfer senior QB that was a projected NFL draft pick and a very good SEC defense with multiple NFL players on it. Please tell me again how Leach walked into a program that was down.

Dear god, the excuses people make for him.

[Johnson85]

Our team had an NFL RB, a solid OL, a transfer senior QB that was a projected NFL draft pick and a very good SEC defense with multiple NFL players on it. Please tell me again how Leach walked into a program that was down.

Dear god, the excuses people make for him.

Dear god, people making up bullshit narratives about the tools he had. We had one above average SEC WR last year in Walley. Heath looks the part but certainly wasn't there last year. And he had an NFL RB that had been ruined by the prior coach. Hill was just somebody that needed a firm hand, but by the time Leach got here, hill was so used to not being held accountable that he reacted poorly to it. Those projecting Costello to be an NFL draft pick were obviously wrong.

Look, Leach has not done a good job so far. There's no really disputing that. A better coach could be implementing his offense while also making slight adjustments to play to the strengths of the players he had. Hopefully Leach is building towards something and just needs a QB to make it work, either from Will improving or from the transfer portal. But there's no sense in making up bullshit narratives about the shape the team was in when he got here. He had a team that did not fit his scheme and a major culture issue, which cost him what would have otherwise been good pieces. It wasn't a bad team as far as talent goes, it just didn't fit what his offense and he's not a good enough coach to adjust the scheme to his players, but is a good enough coach to put together some good teams that can run his offense. Hopefully that last part is still true like it was at Texas Tech and WSU.

[HancockCountyDog]

Dear god, people making up bullshit narratives about the tools he had. We had one above average SEC WR last year in Walley. Heath looks the part but certainly wasn't there last year. And he had an NFL RB that had been ruined by the prior coach. Hill was just somebody that needed a firm hand, but by the time Leach got here, hill was so used to not being held accountable that he reacted poorly to it. Those projecting Costello to be an NFL draft pick were obviously wrong.

Look, Leach has not done a good job so far. There's no really disputing that. A better coach could be implementing his offense while also making slight adjustments to play to the strengths of the players he had. Hopefully Leach is building towards something and just needs a QB to make it work, either from Will improving or from the transfer portal. But there's no sense in making up bullshit narratives about the shape the team was in when he got here. He had a team that did not fit his scheme and a major culture issue, which cost him what would have otherwise been good pieces. It wasn't a bad team as far as talent goes, it just didn't fit what his offense and he's not a good enough coach to adjust the scheme to his players, but is a good enough coach to put together some good teams that can run his offense. Hopefully that last part is still true like it was at Texas Tech and WSU.

We had enough talent to beat beat the shit out of the reigning National Champs at their place to start the season.

Then again, that was one of the few teams that didn't run a 3-8 defense against him. That doesn't speak to us not being talented, but instead speaks to him not being able to adjust.

[dawgman15]

We had enough talent to beat beat the shit out of the reigning National Champs at their place to start the season.

Then again, that was one of the few teams that didn't run a 3-8 defense against him. That doesn't speak to us not being talented, but instead speaks to him not being able to adjust.

Not trying to take sides but that LSU team of 2020 was much different than the 2019 national champions. I watched the replay yesterday. They lost 17 starters from their 2019 team as well as Joe Brady.

[HancockCountyDog]

Not trying to take sides but that LSU team of 2020 was much different than the 2019 national champions. I watched the replay yesterday. They lost 17 starters from their 2019 team as well as Joe Brady.

Of course they were, look no one is saying that Leach was handed the keys to a dynamic 10 win type team. He wasn't.

He was left with a damn solid defense and enough pieces on offense to be a solid team. One good enough to beat LSU in Baton Rouge.

This whole "He needs time to get his players that fit his system" is simply bullshit. Mullen came here in 2009 and took over a program that had been embarrassed on Thanksgiving and was devoid of talent. He didn't say "well we will be good in a few years once Dak gets here".

He got it done with the hand he was dealt and crafted an offense that beat the dogshit out of the bears, one year after one of the worst losses in our history to the bears. That is called coaching. We did not hire Leach to install the air raid offense at MSU. We hired him to win games, right now, not 3 years from now.

You adapt your game plan to the talent you have.

Also, he handpicked Costello to run his offense and no one was complaining about the talent level on our offense when we were setting records against that dipshit of a DC that kept trying to blitz Leach. Unfortunately, the rest of the SEC watched the apple cup tape and adjusted. Unless we run into more dumbass DC's we have to adjust. I'm not sure why i'm trying to convince people that our coach should be putting our players in the best position to win games right now, but hell it looks like that is up for debate for some people.

[Commercecomet24]

Of course they were, look no one is saying that Leach was handed the keys to a dynamic 10 win type team. He wasn't.

He was left with a damn solid defense and enough pieces on offense to be a solid team. One good enough to beat LSU in Baton Rouge.

This whole "He needs time to get his players that fit his system" is simply bullshit. Mullen came here in 2009 and took over a program that had been embarrassed on Thanksgiving and was devoid of talent. He didn't say "well we will be good in a few years once Dak gets here".

He got it done with the hand he was dealt and crafted an offense that beat the dogshit out of the bears, one year after one of the worst losses in our history to the bears. That is called coaching. We did not hire Leach to install the air raid offense at MSU. We hired him to win games, right now, not 3 years from now.

You adapt your game plan to the talent you have.

Also, he handpicked Costello to run his offense and no one was complaining about the talent level on our offense when we were setting records against that dipshit of a DC that kept trying to blitz Leach. Unfortunately, the rest of the SEC watched the apple cup tape and adjusted. Unless we run into more dumbass DC's we have to adjust. I'm not sure why i'm trying to convince people that our coach should be putting our players in the best position to win games right now, but hell it looks like that is up for debate for some people.

I agree with some of that, but saying Mullen inherited team "devoid of talent" is simply not true. There were 14 NFL draft picks from that team ******* inherited and several UDFA that made rosters.

ETA In fact looking back at how much talent ******* did have on that first roster it might be said that he actually underachieved.

[HancockCountyDog]

I agre with some of that, but saying Mullen inherited team "devoid of talent" is simply not true. There were 14 NFL draft picks from that team ******* inherited and several UDFA that made rosters

Most of those were from his first signing class. I think Sherrod, Chaney, KJ Wright, and Kyle Love were the only returning players from the 2008 team that went on to play in the NFL.

The 2009 recruiting class was one of the best in MSU history. Probably the best thing Croom ever did for MSU was handoff that recruiting class for Mullen. It was the reason we were able to be a Scam Newton away from competing for a national title in 2010.

[Commercecomet24]

Most of those were from his first signing class. I think Sherrod, Chaney, KJ Wright, and Kyle Love were the only returning players from the 2008 team that went on to play in the NFL.

The 2009 recruiting class was one of the best in MSU history. Probably the best thing Croom ever did for MSU was handoff that recruiting class for Mullen. It was the reason we were able to be a Scam Newton away from competing for a national title in 2010.

Actually I made a mistake there were 15 NFL draft picks on that first team(i missed Marcus Green). Only 5 were freshmen though so the team was very well stocked with upper class talent, but your point about adapting to your talent is very valid.

[BrunswickDawg]

Most of those were from his first signing class. I think Sherrod, Chaney, KJ Wright, and Kyle Love were the only returning players from the 2008 team that went on to play in the NFL.

The 2009 recruiting class was one of the best in MSU history. Probably the best thing Croom ever did for MSU was handoff that recruiting class for Mullen. It was the reason we were able to be a Scam Newton away from competing for a national title in 2010.

Add Dixon, Arceto Clark (Practice Sq), & Charles Mitchell to that list

[Commercecomet24]

Add Dixon, Arceto Clark (Practice Sq), & Charles Mitchell to that list

And you also had Chris White and Big Pern.

[Commercecomet24]

Add Dixon, Arceto Clark (Practice Sq), & Charles Mitchell to that list

It may have also been one of the most talented OL's we've ever had at State. JC Brignone, Craig Jenkins, Quentin Saulsberry, Addison Lawrence, Derek Sherrod, that's a pretty dang good OL.

[BrunswickDawg]

And you also had Chris White and Big Pern.

White and Pern were JUCO transfers in in '09. Quinten Saulsberry was also on the '08 team, spent 1 season on the Broncos.

[Commercecomet24]

White and Pern were JUCO transfers in in '09. Quinten Saulsberry was also on the '08 team, spent 1 season on the Broncos.

Right, also Gabe Jackson was on '09 team but redshirted. When you look back there was a lot of really good players on that team. Croom had an eye for talent obviously, but just wasn't a head coach. He left Dan in great shape talent wise.

[Maverick91]

Right, also Gabe Jackson was on '09 team but redshirted. When you look back there was a lot of really good players on that team. Croom had an eye for talent obviously, but just wasn't a head coach. He left Dan in great shape talent wise.

and there wasn't the locker room issues that Leach walked into.

[Coach34]

Sorry but you're wrong on this one. That's how he got Minshew.

I’m talking about when taking over the programs.

[Coach34]

We weren't?

Did WSU have a freshman starting at QB in year 1? DId WSU have mostly Freshmen WR in year 2?

Just because our record was better they year prior, does not equal us being in better shape for the offense as WSU was.

But that doesn't fit your "pet name for MSU coach" schick.

Leach inherited a future NFL draft pick at RB who was also the SEC’s leading returning rusher
He also had an experienced group of WR’s and a grad transfer QB that had been successful on the P5 level

Washington State didn’t have that