College Offensive Success is 70%+ About QB Play

[ShotgunDawg]

Was thinking about the all the hand ringing over Leach's offense & it's so obvious why it's not running all that well right now.

Total offense rankings under Mullen:

2009 - 69 - Tyson Lee - Couldn't really do anything above average.
2010 - 42- Chris Relf - Could pound the football at an above average level
2011 - 84 - Chris Relf - Not sure I remember what happened in 2011
2012 - 80 - Tyler Russell - Offense cannot pound the QB
2013 - 42 - Dak effect starts to take place. Above average at running with capable passing.
2014 - 8 - Dak
2015 - 31 - No run Dak, but above average passing Dak
2016 - 44 - No throw Fitz, but well above average running
2017 - 46 - Same as 2016

Point is, you can look through these total offensive rankings & see the importance of having a QB that can do something at an above average level. If Ole Miss & MSU traded QBs right now, I believe, with some wiggle room, our offensive rankings would basically switch places over night.

Maybe Will is the long term guy (Don't think he is) or maybe he is not, but until he does something at an above average level, whether it be mobility, processing, or arm talent, this offense isn't going to be what we want it to be & it won't be about the scheme.

[chef dixon]

Our run game is never going to be close as successful as Ole Miss even if QBs were switched. Will is going to have to stretch the field better than he is now in order for our vanilla running game to be more effective even against mediocre teams. I was a little encouraged by some of the play fakes we were doing last weekend, but it has a long way to go.

[ShotgunDawg]

Our run game is never going to be close as successful as Ole Miss even if QBs were switched. Will is going to have to stretch the field better than he is now in order for our vanilla running game to be more effective even against mediocre teams. I was a little encouraged by some of the play fakes we were doing last weekend, but it has a long way to go.

Once Leach has the right QB on the field, the offense will completely open up. Until then, it's going to be clunky & a grind

[Coach34]

2011 and 2015's issues were OL play. We had 4 new starters both years. 2011 was extra bad because of new starters and injuries.

[ShotgunDawg]

2011 and 2015's issues were OL play. We had 4 new starters both years. 2011 was extra bad because of new starters and injuries.

OL play is certainly the other 30%. You gotta have an above average OL & an above average QB to move the ball & we're currently no better than average at both. Not going to work regardless of scheme.

Once Leach gets a QB on the field that can do something at an above average level, it's going to be tough & not look great

[dawgman15]

He completes passes at an above average rate? Why can't you cut a true sophomore some slack

[ShotgunDawg]

He completes passes at an above average rate? Why can't you cut a true sophomore some slack

- completing dump offs to the RBs is not an above average ability.

- The fact that he is a true SO is his slack. He ain't there yet and this offense won't be any good until the person behind center is there.

I care way more about MSU than who the QB is. It's not personal

Not sure why people think the MSU QB should be given slack. It's weird how attached this fan base gets to local kids. Really weird. Other SEC schools couldn't care less. They just want someone that will do the job.

[msugolf]

Colin Cowherd actually alluded to this yesterday on his show when talking about why the Rams made the switch to Stafford over Goff. Go listen to his show from yesterday in the first hour at the 17 min mark.

Basically he said the Rams were ok with Goff but they (Rams front office) felt like they had to be perfect. Lots of long, perfect drives where one mistake would kill it ... one penalty, one missed assignment, one mis read by the qb, one dropped pass, etc. Stafford yards per attempt was 12.6 on Sunday. Lots of deep middle, deep right, short left, mixing it up.

You have to accept the fact that there will be interceptions and take risks. In fact, the analytics say that interceptions/turnovers on a 20+ long pass don't really have a negative effect on the outcome.

We need a gunslinger, not a game manager.

[msstate7]

He completes passes at an above average rate? Why can't you cut a true sophomore some slack

And yet, we're #12 in sec in total offense again this year after being 12th last year. SELa outperformed our offense vs la tech

ETA... to be fair, I don't think this is all on Rogers, but I do think a good bit is

[thf24]

We need a gunslinger, not a game manager.

We don't even need a "gunslinger" in the Brett Favre sense; just a guy with the confidence and arm strength to consistently find and hit open receivers more than 10 yards deep. I'm a fan of Will's and I think he'll get there in the confidence department with a little more experience, but his arm strength at this point looks like it'll always be a limitation on this offense.

Last year, the issues were all over the field. This year, we've had receivers running wide open all game in both outings, and the OL seems to be getting its shit together after a rocky start. I hate to say it but the issues are very quickly consolidating down to Will.

[dawgman15]

I agree with you MSU golf that his yards per attempt need to come up but that is going to come with experience. Most of the successful drives we have had this year stemmed off of will throwing it 10+ yards for multiple plays.

[confucius say]

The current makeup of our offense makes it imperative that we do not have penalties or bad snaps to get behind the chains. The penalties are drive killers.

Also, when teams stop kicking to Tulu that takes away what has been our most explosive play this year.

But I do believe the offense has improved from last year. Just not a lot.

[ShotgunDawg]

Colin Cowherd actually alluded to this yesterday on his show when talking about why the Rams made the switch to Stafford over Goff. Go listen to his show from yesterday in the first hour at the 17 min mark.

Basically he said the Rams were ok with Goff but they (Rams front office) felt like they had to be perfect. Lots of long, perfect drives where one mistake would kill it ... one penalty, one missed assignment, one mis read by the qb, one dropped pass, etc. Stafford yards per attempt was 12.6 on Sunday. Lots of deep middle, deep right, short left, mixing it up.

You have to accept the fact that there will be interceptions and take risks. In fact, the analytics say that interceptions/turnovers on a 20+ long pass don't really have a negative effect on the outcome.

We need a gunslinger, not a game manager.

This is a great take. Exactly right. Until we have a needle mover at QB, we're just going to be ok

[ShotgunDawg]

We don't even need a "gunslinger" in the Brett Favre sense; just a guy with the confidence and arm strength to consistently find and hit open receivers more than 10 yards deep. I'm a fan of Will's and I think he'll get there in the confidence department with a little more experience, but his arm strength at this point looks like it'll always be a limitation on this offense.

Last year, the issues were all over the field. This year, we've had receivers running wide open all game in both outings, and the OL seems to be getting its shit together after a rocky start. I hate to say it but the issues are very quickly consolidating down to Will.

Gunslinger insinuates reckless play. We don't need reckless play, but we do need the equivalent of a point guard that can create his own shot

[thf24]

If Ole Miss & MSU traded QBs right now, I believe, with some wiggle room, our offensive rankings would basically switch places over night.

A guy with Corral's arm strength and an average football head, absolutely. If you were to drop Corral into our offense as is, there's a good chance he produces about like KJ did last year.

[ShotgunDawg]

I agree with you MSU golf that his yards per attempt need to come up but that is going to come with experience. Most of the successful drives we have had this year stemmed off of will throwing it 10+ yards for multiple plays.

You need to talent to do that.

He'll get better with experience, but people will be shocked what this offense looks like once we have an above average talent at QB. That guy isn't ready yet, so I'm not calling for a QB change. Just laying it out there that we shouldn't expect some massive uptick until the right guy is ready. It's not the scheme

[ShotgunDawg]

A guy with Corral's arm strength and an average football head, absolutely. If you were to drop Corral into our offense as is, there's a good chance he produces about like KJ did last year.

He's infinitely more talented than KJ. Much better athlete & quicker release. Sure, he'd need some experience in the scheme, but once he had it, the offense would be dynamic & almost unstoppable

[dawgman15]

You need to talent to do that.

He'll get better with experience, but people will be shocked what this offense looks like once we have an above average talent at QB. That guy isn't ready yet, so I'm not calling for a QB change. Just laying it out there that we shouldn't some massive uptick until the right guy is ready. It's not the scheme

I like how you imply that Will Rogers is untalented. I guess Mike Leach has never had a talented qb when considering none of qbs have ever been known for slinging it down field

[ShotgunDawg]

I like how you imply that Will Rogers is untalented. I guess Mike Leach has never had a talented qb when considering none of qbs have ever been known for slinging it down field

Most all of his QBs have been more talented than Will though. There is a threshold of athleticism & arm talent needed to run this offense at the D1 level & Will kind of straddles that threshold.

[dawgman15]

Could you provide some statistics to verify that he is less talented? Are you strictly going off the eye test?

[ShotgunDawg]

Could you provide some statistics to verify that he is less talented? Are you strictly going off the eye test?

Eye test. Stats are virtually meaningless in this offense & inaccurate to look at unless they're outrageous

Grade Rogers on following compared to quality college QBs:

Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

Speed: Above average, normal, below average

Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

For me, it breaks down like this:

Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

Speed: Above average, normal, below average

Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

Field vision: Above average, Normal, Below average

Processing Speed: Above average, Normal, Below average

would love to hear your thoughts on where you disagree here. It's pointless to talk players unless we're speaking the same language

[Prediction? Pain.]

Most all of his QBs have been more talented than Will though. There is a threshold of athleticism & arm talent needed to run this offense at the D1 level & Will kind of straddles that threshold.


Could you provide some statistics to verify that he is less talented? Are you strictly going off the eye test?

Y'all got me curious. Here are Leach's starting QBs at WSU and their 24/7 rating out of high school :

2012: Jeff Tuel (senior) - 3-star, 0.8243

2013 - 2014: Connor Halliday (junior - senior) - 3-star, 0.8309

2015 - 2017: Luke Falk (soph - senior) - 2-star, 0.7667 (walk-on redshirt in 2013; started 5 games in 2014)

2018: Garner Minshew (senior) - 3-star, 0.8087

2019: Anthony Gordon (senior) - unrated (JUCO in 2016; RS in 2017; 3rd string in 2018)

None of those dudes appear to have had any other Power 5 offers. All have spent time with NFL franchises, at least at the offseason/practice-squad level. And Will Rogers was more highly rated out of high school than all of them.

I know that's all on paper. And I have no idea if Will is going to follow the trend. But still, pretty damn impressive given how stout WSU's offense became after the first couple of years.

[Maverick91]

I was in the camp that Rodgers has below average arm strength. I noticed a little in the game, but, really noticed with Wyatt's film study, I think we cannot really judge his arm strength until he starts to step into his throws. Most all of them look like they are coming off his back foot and he hardly ever looks like he is throwing through the pass. It constantly looks like he is just moving is arm and not really using his whole body for the throw.

I am no QB whisperer or anything, but, that is what I have noticed.

[ShotgunDawg]

Y'all got me curious. Here are Leach's starting QBs at WSU and their 24/7 rating out of high school :

2012: Jeff Tuel (senior) - 3-star, 0.8243

2013 - 2014: Connor Halliday (junior - senior) - 3-star, 0.8309

2015 - 2017: Luke Falk (soph - senior) - 2-star, 0.7667 (walk-on redshirt in 2013; started 5 games in 2014)

2018: Garner Minshew (senior) - 3-star, 0.8087

2019: Anthony Gordon (senior) - unrated (JUCO in 2016; RS in 2017; 3rd string in 2018)

None of those dudes appear to have had any other Power 5 offers. All have spent time with NFL franchises, at least at the offseason/practice-squad level. And Will Rogers was more highly rated out of high school than all of them.

I know that's all on paper. And I have no idea if Will is going to follow the trend. But still, pretty damn impressive given how stout WSU's offense became after the first couple of years.

Go watch Youtube. They were all more talented

3 of those guys are the NFL & Holliday got a shot in the NFL but flaked out.

[Maverick91]

Y'all got me curious. Here are Leach's starting QBs at WSU and their 24/7 rating out of high school :

2012: Jeff Tuel (senior) - 3-star, 0.8243

2013 - 2014: Connor Halliday (junior - senior) - 3-star, 0.8309

2015 - 2017: Luke Falk (soph - senior) - 2-star, 0.7667 (walk-on redshirt in 2013; started 5 games in 2014)

2018: Garner Minshew (senior) - 3-star, 0.8087

2019: Anthony Gordon (senior) - unrated (JUCO in 2016; RS in 2017; 3rd string in 2018)

None of those dudes appear to have had any other Power 5 offers. All have spent time with NFL franchises, at least at the offseason/practice-squad level. And Will Rogers was more highly rated out of high school than all of them.

I know that's all on paper. And I have no idea if Will is going to follow the trend. But still, pretty damn impressive given how stout WSU's offense became after the first couple of years.

That is really interesting, I know it is pac12 defenses, but, to put up the numbers they put up with the talent they had, that is really something to note.

[ShotgunDawg]

I was in the camp that Rodgers has below average arm strength. I noticed a little in the game, but, really noticed with Wyatt's film study, I think we cannot really judge his arm strength until he starts to step into his throws. Most all of them look like they are coming off his back foot and he hardly ever looks like he is throwing through the pass. It constantly looks like he is just moving is arm and not really using his whole body for the throw.

I am no QB whisperer or anything, but, that is what I have noticed.

Great point. When Will sets his feet & steps into the throw, he arm strength is fine & adequate as are most QB's.

Problem is, for him to have his feet set & step into the throw, virtually everything has to go right around him. The OL has to block, the WRs are to run their routes correctly, etc.

For MSU to take the next step on offense, we need a QB that can expand the margin for error by the other players on the field & that typically means they need the ability to move quickly & make strong, accurate throws from off platform positions. That expands the margin for error

[dawgman15]

Eye test. Stats are virtually meaningless in this offense & inaccurate to look at unless they're outrageous

Grade Rogers on following compared to quality college QBs:

Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

Speed: Above average, normal, below average

Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

For me, it breaks down like this:

Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

Speed: Above average, normal, below average

Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

Field vision: Above average, Normal, Below average

Processing Speed: Above average, Normal, Below average

would love to hear your thoughts on where you disagree here. It's pointless to talk players unless we're speaking the same language

It's pointless to talk players when you don't view them objectively using statistics rather than the eye test which is completely biased. You say all of the
QBs that prediction pain talked about were more talented than Rogers yet they were older than rogers in the system? Would it not be more wise to compare Rogers to them once he has matured to their age rather than a growing QB. You spit your opinion as if it is fact. It doesn't work that way

[Tbonewannabe]

2011 and 2015's issues were OL play. We had 4 new starters both years. 2011 was extra bad because of new starters and injuries.

I believe in 2011 Relf played most of the year with broke ribs or something like that also. 2015 was as much on Mullen being stubborn and trying to force Holloway into a feature back roll. We had running backs on the team that would have been a lot more successful in that offense.

[Maverick91]

Great point. When Will sets his feet & steps into the throw, he arm strength is fine & adequate as are most QB's.

Problem is, for him to have his feet set & step into the throw, virtually everything has to go right around him. The OL has to block, the WRs are to run their routes correctly, etc.

For MSU to take the next step on offense, we need a QB that can expand the margin for error by the other players on the field & that typically means they need the ability to move quickly & make strong, accurate throws from off platform positions. That expands the margin for error

I agree, but, that brings the question to a bubble - is that an issue that comes with maturity for Rodgers or are we thinking that he has reached his ceiling in that regard? If its maturity, then dang come on Rodgers please grow up this week, fine tune that skill next week and come out and sling it around against LSU and lets make some noise. But, if it is his ceiling, then yeah, Rodgers is a really adequate and annoying place holder.

[ShotgunDawg]

It's pointless to talk players when you don't view them objectively using statistics rather than the eye test which is completely biased. You say all of the
QBs that prediction pain talked about were more talented than Rogers yet they were older than rogers in the system? Would it not be more wise to compare Rogers to them once he has matured to their age rather than a growing QB. You spit your opinion as if it is fact. It doesn't work that way

Ok. Well you can't talk players then.

Stats are great but they only tell you what has already happened. Unless you've got some kind of predictive algorithm model, you've got to look at physical ingredients to predict what will happen tomorrow, a month from now, or 2 years from now. You have to look at what the player is physically capable of

and why would I be biased against Rogers? I want him to succeed as much as anyone outside of him & his parents

[Tbonewannabe]

Eye test. Stats are virtually meaningless in this offense & inaccurate to look at unless they're outrageous

Grade Rogers on following compared to quality college QBs:

Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

Speed: Above average, normal, below average

Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

For me, it breaks down like this:

Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

Speed: Above average, normal, below average

Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

Field vision: Above average, Normal, Below average

Processing Speed: Above average, Normal, Below average

would love to hear your thoughts on where you disagree here. It's pointless to talk players unless we're speaking the same language

I would say his accuracy is above average. Other than that, average or below average however he is a true sophomore. I think he was the guy that should have redshirted and then started as a redshirt junior. Not sure it is completely fair to rate him compared to guys their senior years.

[ShotgunDawg]

I agree, but, that brings the question to a bubble - is that an issue that comes with maturity for Rodgers or are we thinking that he has reached his ceiling in that regard? If its maturity, then dang come on Rodgers please grow up this week, fine tune that skill next week and come out and sling it around against LSU and lets make some noise. But, if it is his ceiling, then yeah, Rodgers is a really adequate and annoying place holder.

I think he's close to his physical ceiling. Players mostly stay the same, but they just get stronger & smarter. He's got more room to improve mentally than physically. He's pretty much tapped out physically IMO

I don't see the athleticism for him to improve much physically

[dawgman15]

Ok. Well you can't talk players then.

Stats are great but they only tell you what has already happened. Unless you've got some kind of predictive algorithm model, you've got to look at physical ingredients to predict what will happen tomorrow, a month from now, or 2 years from now. You have to look at what the player is physically capable of

How are you not a NFL GM by now with all of this knowledge on how an athlete will fill out their frame overtime and how well they will adapt in the future just based off watching them play 8 full collegiate football games

[ShotgunDawg]

How are you not a NFL GM by now with all of this knowledge on how an athlete will fill out their frame overtime and how well they will adapt in the future just based off watching them play 8 full collegiate football games

Good heavens. You sound butt hurt

[dawgman15]

Why would I be butt hurt that some one else can't back up their argument with facts?

[msstate7]

Good heavens. You sound butt hurt

Critique of will is very personal for some here.

[Maverick91]

I think he's close to his physical ceiling. Players mostly stay the same, but they just get stronger & smarter. He's got more room to improve mentally than physically. He's pretty much tapped out physically IMO

I don't see the athleticism for him to improve much physically

Yeah, but, I don't see this as a physical issue this is more of mental maturity. Having to set your feet and throw in awkward ways, that just comes with more comfort for the game, and knowledge overall.

[ShotgunDawg]

Why would I be butt hurt that some one else can't back up their argument with facts?

You need facts to evaluate a player?

Some see it & some don't bud

[ShotgunDawg]

Critique of will is very personal for some here.

It's strange how people can't see our players objectively for what they are

[ShotgunDawg]

Yeah, but, I don't see this as a physical issue this is more of mental maturity. Having to set your feet and throw in awkward ways, that just comes with more comfort for the game, and knowledge overall.

Agree. He'll get better but marginally. He's on the floor of the 3rd floor of the building. Perhaps he can get to the ceiling of the 3rd floor or maybe even the floor of the 4th floor of the building. But he can't get to the 6th floor or higher. Not enough physical ingredients.

[Maverick91]

Agree. He'll get better but marginally. He's on the floor of the 3rd floor of the building. Perhaps he can get to the ceiling of the 3rd floor or maybe even the floor of the 4th floor of the building. But he can't get to the 6th floor or higher. Not enough physical ingredients.

hears to hoping you are wrong, or someone else comes in and is the lighting rode we need.

[TaleofTwoDogs]

Yeah, but, I don't see this as a physical issue this is more of mental maturity. Having to set your feet and throw in awkward ways, that just comes with more comfort for the game, and knowledge overall.

I agree. I think Will has the physical skills to do the job but seems to be restricted mentally from preforming as an above average SEC QB. By this, I don't mean a Wonderlic score but the mental confidence to get the job done on a high level. I'm curious to know if last year's high turnover rate at the QB position made him overly conservative with his approach to the position. Playing not to lose. Does he have the "deer in headlights" outlook in his head?

[ShotgunDawg]

hears to hoping you are wrong, or someone else comes in and is the lighting rode we need.

Totally agree. I'd rather be wrong & MSU be better than right.

[ShotgunDawg]

I agree. I think Will has the physical skills to do the job but seems to be restricted mentally from preforming as an above average SEC QB.

It's both, but I lean heavily on him not having the physical skills.

Again break it down

Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

Speed: Above average, normal, below average

Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

[Coach34]

I think it's a combination of 2 things:

1. Rogers is an adequate, very football smart game manager.

2. This offense will limit anyone to a degree. In the Big 12 and Pac-12 they had guys breaking away for big plays- that happens alot less in the SEC. Teams are playing soft pass D and then running downhill and blowing people up. The defensive philosophy against Leach has changed over the years. We cant usually throw quick because of the coverages against us. So everything has to develop. It's really hard to throw against 7 and 8 players play after play. Rogers almost never gets the luxury of going only against 6 in the Secondary as most QB's get often vs a 4 man front and 1 blitzer.

[dawgman15]

Did you buddy in the 49ers front office tell you all that?

[ShotgunDawg]

I think it's a combination of 2 things:

1. Rogers is an adequate, very football smart game manager.

2. This offense will limit anyone to a degree. In the Big 12 and Pac-12 they had guys breaking away for big plays- that happens alot less in the SEC. Teams are playing soft pass D and then running downhill and blowing people up. The defensive philosophy against Leach has changed over the years. We cant usually throw quick because of the coverages against us. So everything has to develop. It's really hard to throw against 7 and 8 players play after play. Rogers almost never gets the luxury of going only against 6 in the Secondary as most QB's get often vs a 4 man front and 1 blitzer.

- I can settle to agree with your 1st point.
- However, it's because of point #2 that we need a more dynamic player back there.

I would ask though, what college offenses are really good at the P5 level with a QB talent like Rogers? Can name a few?

[BrunswickDawg]

I look at it like this - Will is kind of like Mullen starting out having to play Tyson Lee. Tyson was a great leader, a JUCO All-American, but he wasn't necessarily SEC QB material and wasn't a perfect match to Mullen's system.
But, Tyson was all we had until Relf could get ready. Will is matched to the system better then Tyson was, but at this point in his career I'm not sure Will is SEC QB material. But, like Tyson, at this point he is the best we've got and 1 of 2 things will need to happen - either A) Will advances or B) someone progresses and beats him out. If A happens great, we win more games. If B happens, great we win more games. If neither happen, it will be a long couple of years.

[Johnson85]

I like how you imply that Will Rogers is untalented. I guess Mike Leach has never had a talented qb when considering none of qbs have ever been known for slinging it down field

You can't go by ratings with QB. Just too hard to evaluate because so much of it is not physical. I certainly didn't pay enough attention to WSU to know how Rogers compares to them, but it would not surprise me if they all had more arm strength than Rogers even if none of them were big arms. So far, Rogers looks like his arm is below average and his decision making skills are either slightly above or well above average, depending on how you want to account for the fact that he's a true sophomore. I think if Will came into this offense after we had a few years to tool up for it (and especially if he got to redshirt and then sit the bench for a year), he'd be more than adequate for it to be successful. I think as it is, we're still not there and him lacking a lot of zip on his balls is just one more thing that makes it hard for the offense to really be successful, even if he's not the primary problem.

All that said, he's still doing pretty damn well. QB is such an important position that of course having a better QB would instantly make us better, but he's certainly not playing at a level that deserves a lot of criticism.

[HoopsDawg]

You need to be able to run the ball when teams drop 8. Ole Miss can. We can't.

[confucius say]

Most all of his QBs have been more talented than Will though. There is a threshold of athleticism & arm talent needed to run this offense at the D1 level & Will kind of straddles that threshold.

He's also the youngest to ever play for leach.
Examine will in two years and compare him to other leach qb

[confucius say]

Ok. Well you can't talk players then.

Stats are great but they only tell you what has already happened. Unless you've got some kind of predictive algorithm model, you've got to look at physical ingredients to predict what will happen tomorrow, a month from now, or 2 years from now. You have to look at what the player is physically capable of

and why would I be biased against Rogers? I want him to succeed as much as anyone outside of him & his parents

And as a fourth year jr, which is usually on average when a leach qb plays, Rogers will be normal or above average in every category you listed above. The problem is he is having to play as a true freshman and now a covid freshman.

[confucius say]

Critique of will is very personal for some here.

Nobody minds critique. He is average at best right now.
But for shotgun to compare him to redshirt juniors and seniors, and to say he cannot get better physically from age 19 to age 22 (ask Matt Wyatt about this, he talked about himself the other day), is intellectually dishonest.

[msstate7]

I look at it like this - Will is kind of like Mullen starting out having to play Tyson Lee. Tyson was a great leader, a JUCO All-American, but he wasn't necessarily SEC QB material and wasn't a perfect match to Mullen's system.
But, Tyson was all we had until Relf could get ready. Will is matched to the system better then Tyson was, but at this point in his career I'm not sure Will is SEC QB material. But, like Tyson, at this point he is the best we've got and 1 of 2 things will need to happen - either A) Will advances or B) someone progresses and beats him out. If A happens great, we win more games. If B happens, great we win more games. If neither happen, it will be a long couple of years.

Good post

[msstate7]

Nobody minds critique. He is average at best right now.
But for shotgun to compare him to redshirt juniors and seniors, and to say he cannot get better physically from age 19 to age 22 (ask Matt Wyatt about this, he talked about himself the other day), is intellectually dishonest.

I just don't see tools improving. You either have them or you don't. He can certainly process things quicker, which would help. I just think for will to be a really successful sec qb, he'll have to be lifted up by his supporting cast. I'm hoping Sawyer (in time) can lift up those around him like big time qbs do.

[confucius say]

I just don't see tools improving. You either have them or you don't. He can certainly process things quicker, which would help. I just think for will to be a really successful sec qb, he'll have to be lifted up by his supporting cast. I'm hoping Sawyer (in time) can lift up those around him like big time qbs do.

He's never going to have a huge arm. That's the only tool I can say will never be above average. He will have to make up for that with anticipation and accuracy, like a drew Brees approach.

[ShotgunDawg]

I look at it like this - Will is kind of like Mullen starting out having to play Tyson Lee. Tyson was a great leader, a JUCO All-American, but he wasn't necessarily SEC QB material and wasn't a perfect match to Mullen's system.
But, Tyson was all we had until Relf could get ready. Will is matched to the system better then Tyson was, but at this point in his career I'm not sure Will is SEC QB material. But, like Tyson, at this point he is the best we've got and 1 of 2 things will need to happen - either A) Will advances or B) someone progresses and beats him out. If A happens great, we win more games. If B happens, great we win more games. If neither happen, it will be a long couple of years.

Great comparison

[ShotgunDawg]

He's also the youngest to ever play for leach.
Examine will in two years and compare him to other leach qb

Personally, I don't think he'll be on the field in two years

[ShotgunDawg]

And as a fourth year jr, which is usually on average when a leach qb plays, Rogers will be normal or above average in every category you listed above. The problem is he is having to play as a true freshman and now a covid freshman.

You keep bringing up his age, &, while he should get smarter, that's going to do a whole lot for his physical tools

[msstate7]

He's never going to have a huge arm. That's the only tool I can say will never be above average. He will have to make up for that with anticipation and accuracy, like a drew Brees approach.

I see what you're saying; but at the end of Drew's career, his processor speed was unbelievable, along with his accuracy. Even being superior to probably the whole nfl in those 2 categories, the saints had to execute flawless to drive the ball. It makes it so hard, and again, drew was unbelievably accurate and quick processing. Younger drew could sling the hell out of a ball

[ShotgunDawg]

Nobody minds critique. He is average at best right now.
But for shotgun to compare him to redshirt juniors and seniors, and to say he cannot get better physically from age 19 to age 22 (ask Matt Wyatt about this, he talked about himself the other day), is intellectually dishonest.

I think Matt is good at breaking down film, but he's said something about players that kind of makes me laugh. I don't look to him for evaluations

[ShotgunDawg]

I just don't see tools improving. You either have them or you don't. He can certainly process things quicker, which would help. I just think for will to be a really successful sec qb, he'll have to be lifted up by his supporting cast. I'm hoping Sawyer (in time) can lift up those around him like big time qbs do.

Agree

[HoopsDawg]

- I can settle to agree with your 1st point.
- However, it's because of point #2 that we need a more dynamic player back there.

I would ask though, what college offenses are really good at the P5 level with a QB talent like Rogers? Can name a few?

We had the same issues with KJ Costello, a redshirt senior who got a look at NFL camps. Read Coach's point 2 again and let it sink in.

[ShotgunDawg]

He's never going to have a huge arm. That's the only tool I can say will never be above average. He will have to make up for that with anticipation and accuracy, like a drew Brees approach.

Brees is extremely quick & twitchy. A great athlete although short. Different level athletes we're talking about here.

[R2Dawg]

- I can settle to agree with your 1st point.
- However, it's because of point #2 that we need a more dynamic player back there.

I would ask though, what college offenses are really good at the P5 level with a QB talent like Rogers? Can name a few?

70% on one guy regardless of type of offense scheme is ridiculous high. OL, DL will win a lot of games. Great OL with an average RB will still produce yards. Great OL, great WR with average QB will still produce yards.

Yes if there are gaps other places, then the QB can make up for it. You can't throw out everything else that makes a winning team. Bama won a lot of championships without a heisman winner or great QB. Some great QBs in college didn't play on championship teams but made it big in NFL - Brady, Breeze, Dak, etc. QB ain't 70% of a winning team.

Even Peyton Manning didn't win a NC - Tee Martin did. How do you reconcile that?

[confucius say]

It's both, but I lean heavily on him not having the physical skills.

Again break it down

Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

Speed: Above average, normal, below average

Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

Here are the sec qb:

Young
Nix
Jefferson
Dude from Aggie
Max Johnson
Corral
Rogers

Daniels
Emory Jones
Levis
Bazelak
Seals
Milton
Dude from Usce

Using your categories, Rogers is above average in accuracy and below average in arm strength. Average in speed/quickness/athleticism (same as Aggie, bazelak, Levis, seals, Daniels, Usce guy).

[ShotgunDawg]

Here are the sec qb:

Young
Nix
Jefferson
Dude from Aggie
Max Johnson
Corral
Rogers

Daniels
Emory Jones
Levis
Bazelak
Seals
Milton
Dude from Usce

Using your categories, Rogers is above average in accuracy and below average in arm strength. Average in speed/quickness/athleticism (same as Aggie, bazelak, Levis, seals, Daniels, Usce guy).

You just put Rogers & Daniels in the same category while also giving Rogers above average accuracy?

What has Rogers done for you to think he has above average accuracy?

[msstate7]

Here are the sec qb:

Young
Nix
Jefferson
Dude from Aggie
Max Johnson
Corral
Rogers

Daniels
Emory Jones
Levis
Bazelak
Seals
Milton
Dude from Usce

Using your categories, Rogers is above average in accuracy and below average in arm strength. Average in speed/quickness/athleticism (same as Aggie, bazelak, Levis, seals, Daniels, Usce guy).

Calzada was actually pretty athletic. Now his accuracy made his parents in the stands deny they knew him

[confucius say]

Personally, I don't think he'll be on the field in two years

He may not.

[ShotgunDawg]

Calzada was actually pretty athletic. Now his accuracy made his parents in the stands deny they knew him

Agree. Calzada is an SEC athlete with G5 throwing ability. His arm doesn't work right

[confucius say]

You just put Rogers & Daniels in the same category while also giving Rogers above average accuracy?

What has Rogers done for you to think he has above average accuracy?

I'm saying Rogers is the same as those guys in the speed, athleticism, quickness category.

Be accurate throwing the football. To the tune of 75% I believe.

[confucius say]

Calzada was actually pretty athletic. Now his accuracy made his parents in the stands deny they knew him

I meant their starter, Haynes whatever.

[Irondawg]

Sevendust over on GP took the time to show a couple of screenshots where we missed some big plays with open receivers on the deep and intermediate routes.

There are tons of things I still don't like about the offense, but knowing that we're at least creating big play opportunities makes me feel better. To be clear these are situations with clean pockets, not deals were the QB is flushed right and the guy on the far left becomes wide open.

The main problem seems to be Will just focuses way too much on the routes within 10 lines of the LOS. Teams are seeing that tendency and crowding that area more and more, so while we still complete the catch, there is no YAC.

He's not a bad QB at all you can win with him as he does a good job of limiting mistakes. The Goff/Stafford example is a good one earlier in the thread. Is he better than some SEC starting QBs? Absolutely, but outside Bama and Georgia the SEC has struggled at the position that last few years overall for some reason.

So can Will change his mentality to get a get a little more confident in taking deeper shots and also making the defense account for him with the occasional scramble? That's where our growth needs to happen to take a step forward. We need to run the ball better as well and get our run blocking worked out but considering how little we run, that's not an important right now.

[ShotgunDawg]

I'm saying Rogers is the same as those guys in the speed, athleticism, quickness category.

Be accurate throwing the football. To the tune of 75% I believe.

Rogers is not the same athlete as Daniels. Not close

We're going to be arguing about completion percentage with this offense for years to come. I can see it now. It's meaningless to me. Absolutely meaningless.

That 75% completion % is good enough for our offense to currently be ranked 75% in the country. So it seems to me that completion % in the air raid & 10 cents may get you a cup of coffee.

[ShotgunDawg]

I meant their starter, Haynes whatever.

The starter that broke his ankle is a crazy good talent. Can run & has a hand cannon

[msstate7]

Sevendust over on GP took the time to show a couple of screenshots where we missed some big plays with open receivers on the deep and intermediate routes.

There are tons of things I still don't like about the offense, but knowing that we're at least creating big play opportunities makes me feel better. To be clear these are situations with clean pockets, not deals were the QB is flushed right and the guy on the far left becomes wide open.

The main problem seems to be Will just focuses way too much on the routes within 10 lines of the LOS. Teams are seeing that tendency and crowding that area more and more, so while we still complete the catch, there is no YAC.

He's not a bad QB at all you can win with him as he does a good job of limiting mistakes. The Goff/Stafford example is a good one earlier in the thread. Is he better than some SEC starting QBs? Absolutely, but outside Bama and Georgia the SEC has struggled at the position that last few years overall for some reason.

So can Will change his mentality to get a get a little more confident in taking deeper shots and also making the defense account for him with the occasional scramble? That's where our growth needs to happen to take a step forward. We need to run the ball better as well and get our run blocking worked out but considering how little we run, that's not an important right now.

Wonder how many of those misses downfield are a product of just not trusting his arm to get it there.

[Irondawg]

Accuracy, like any stats can be a bit misleading.

If I throw 10 passes and complete 8 for an 80% rate but 6 are passes to the RB in the flat and while caught are off his back hip and don't allow for any YAC is that QB more accurate than a guy who goes 5 for 10 but has 2 drops and hits all 5 completions in stride that allow for YAC?

The boxscore would tell me that the guy who is 80% completion percentage is way more accurate than the guy at 50%. The eye test would tell me the 50% guy is the more accurate QB.

Arguing QB is tough and it's why so many professional graders still get it way wrong.

[ShotgunDawg]

Sevendust over on GP took the time to show a couple of screenshots where we missed some big plays with open receivers on the deep and intermediate routes.

There are tons of things I still don't like about the offense, but knowing that we're at least creating big play opportunities makes me feel better. To be clear these are situations with clean pockets, not deals were the QB is flushed right and the guy on the far left becomes wide open.

The main problem seems to be Will just focuses way too much on the routes within 10 lines of the LOS. Teams are seeing that tendency and crowding that area more and more, so while we still complete the catch, there is no YAC.

He's not a bad QB at all you can win with him as he does a good job of limiting mistakes. The Goff/Stafford example is a good one earlier in the thread. Is he better than some SEC starting QBs? Absolutely, but outside Bama and Georgia the SEC has struggled at the position that last few years overall for some reason.

So can Will change his mentality to get a get a little more confident in taking deeper shots and also making the defense account for him with the occasional scramble? That's where our growth needs to happen to take a step forward. We need to run the ball better as well and get our run blocking worked out but considering how little we run, that's not an important right now.

Solid post. I think this week is a great week for Will to air it out some. We should have WRs open down the field this week & it's a great time for him to unleash it responsibly

[ShotgunDawg]

Wonder how many of those misses downfield are a product of just not trusting his arm to get it there.

I think he's been Ok going over the top. It's the off platform, mid range throws where he struggles. Going over the top doesn't require a ton of arm strength unless you Corral it 60 yards in the air

[confucius say]

Wonder how many of those misses downfield are a product of just not trusting his arm to get it there.

The miss to walley and Johnson were both within ten yards amd both would have been huge gains. Just two bad throws.

[Irondawg]

Wonder how many of those misses downfield are a product of just not trusting his arm to get it there.

Tough to say because most weren't 50 yard throws and I don't know what the reads on the playcalls were either.

[Commercecomet24]

I've watched Leach for a long time. Graham Harrell had one of the weakest arms ever in college football and put up huge numbers, Kingsbury's arm was average at best and he's had several others very similar. Will's arm is better than Harrells and at least as good as Kingsbury's. The major difference between Will and those qbs is decisiveness. Those qbs knew almost immediately where they were going with the ball. Will is still not as decisive as he needs to be and that may just be a matter of experience(hopefully). He has enough arm to run this offense but can he learn to be more decisive and take the shots down the field instead of checking down so much. Time will tell.

[confucius say]

Rogers is not the same athlete as Daniels. Not close

We're going to be arguing about completion percentage with this offense for years to come. I can see it now. It's meaningless to me. Absolutely meaningless.

That 75% completion % is good enough for our offense to currently be ranked 75% in the country. So it seems to me that completion % in the air raid & 10 cents may get you a cup of coffee.

It's not the end al be all, I fully agree. But is an indicator of accuracy.

What have you ever seen from Daniels that makes you think he is on a whole different level athletically than Rogers? I think you are conflating foot work and awareness (Brees) with athleticism. I disagree with your statement that Brees is quick. He was not fast or shifty. He did have good feet and pocket awareness though.

[ShotgunDawg]

It's not the end al be all, I fully agree. But is an indicator of accuracy.

What have you ever seen from Daniels that makes you think he is on a whole different level athletically than Rogers? I think you are conflating foot work and awareness (Brees) with athleticism. I disagree with your statement that Brees is quick. He was not fast or shifty. He did have good feet and pocket awareness though.

Brees is quick twitch. So was Tony Romo but both are slow. Twitch is not an indicator of speed.

Daniels is bigger, stronger, more fluid, & explosive than Rogers

[HancockCountyDog]

My two cents.

I don't like the offense we are running. I think the scheme is the problem, not Will. If we are going to run this offense, Will is perfectly capable of thriving in this offense.

The reason he is having to dump the ball off is because teams have schemed the hell out of this offense. They have tons of film on this offense, and its the same shit every week. Our big plays are either plays where Will scrambles out of the pocket and a defender comes up and gets out of their pre-designated zone and then someone is open or a DC attempts to blitz and we simply can get that ball off.

Will is doing exactly what he is being asked to do in this offense. If his arm was stronger, the WR's wouldn't be more open. LEach's offense has rarely stretched the field vertically. Its not that type of offense. Its not a coincidence that we keep having to punt 6-7 times a game, regardless of who is playing defense. LT, bears, NC State - we always end up punting 6-7 times a game.

Its very easy to blame Will, but a stronger armed QB is not the solution. Hell, KJ had a stronger arm, and that didn't do us any favors last year.

Its the offense, not the QB.

[confucius say]

Brees is quick twitch. So was Tony Romo but both are slow. Twitch is not an indicator of speed.

Daniels is bigger, stronger, more fluid, & explosive than Rogers

They are the same weight amd 1 inch apart. How do you know which is stronger?

Regardless, Bigger and stronger have nothing to with speed and quickness. Daniels is bigger than Tulu too. Who cares. Daniels and Rogers 40 time and shuttle drill would be about the same. There is no significant difference in their athleticism.

[dawgman15]

They are the same weight amd 1 inch apart. How do you know which is stronger?

Regardless, Bigger and stronger have nothing to with speed and quickness. Daniels is bigger than Tulu too. Who cares. Daniels and Rogers 40 time and shuttle drill would be about the same. There is no significant difference in their athleticism.

No need in arguing, Shotgun's eye is the best around. He knows exactly how much JT daniels benchpresses just from a quick glance. He has a gift I tell you

[Todd4State]

I've watched Leach for a long time. Graham Harrell had one of the weakest arms ever in college football and put up huge numbers, Kingsbury's arm was average at best and he's had several others very similar. Will's arm is better than Harrells and at least as good as Kingsbury's. The major difference between Will and those qbs is decisiveness. Those qbs knew almost immediately where they were going with the ball. Will is still not as decisive as he needs to be and that may just be a matter of experience(hopefully). He has enough arm to run this offense but can he learn to be more decisive and take the shots down the field instead of checking down so much. Time will tell.

I think this is the main issue. Really he just needs to be able to identify deep targets better and hit them when they come open.

He gets happy feet too.

If he does that this offense will take off very soon. That's the main thing I want to see this week from Will. Attack and hit receivers down the field some.

[ShotgunDawg]

My two cents.

I don't like the offense we are running. I think the scheme is the problem, not Will. If we are going to run this offense, Will is perfectly capable of thriving in this offense.

The reason he is having to dump the ball off is because teams have schemed the hell out of this offense. They have tons of film on this offense, and its the same shit every week. Our big plays are either plays where Will scrambles out of the pocket and a defender comes up and gets out of their pre-designated zone and then someone is open or a DC attempts to blitz and we simply can get that ball off.

Will is doing exactly what he is being asked to do in this offense. If his arm was stronger, the WR's wouldn't be more open. LEach's offense has rarely stretched the field vertically. Its not that type of offense. Its not a coincidence that we keep having to punt 6-7 times a game, regardless of who is playing defense. LT, bears, NC State - we always end up punting 6-7 times a game.

Its very easy to blame Will, but a stronger armed QB is not the solution. Hell, KJ had a stronger arm, and that didn't do us any favors last year.

Its the offense, not the QB.

I don't agree with this at all. There are guys wide open on film. I just don't see any evidence that this is correct

[ShotgunDawg]

They are the same weight amd 1 inch apart. How do you know which is stronger?

Regardless, Bigger and stronger have nothing to with speed and quickness. Daniels is bigger than Tulu too. Who cares. Daniels and Rogers 40 time and shuttle drill would be about the same. There is no significant difference in their athleticism.

Ok. You see one thing and I see another

[ShotgunDawg]

No need in arguing, Shotgun's eye is the best around. He knows exactly how much JT daniels benchpresses just from a quick glance. He has a gift I tell you

Butt hurt

[ShotgunDawg]

I think this is the main issue. Really he just needs to be able to identify deep targets better and hit them when they come open.

He gets happy feet too.

If he does that this offense will take off very soon. That's the main thing I want to see this week from Will. Attack and hit receivers down the field some.

Would certainly help. Hopefully we see more of that this week

[dawgman15]

Butt hurt

You're a clown who makes me laugh, thank you for that

[ShotgunDawg]

You're a clown who makes me laugh, thank you for that

Glad I make you feel good.

[Commercecomet24]

I don't agree with this at all. There are guys wide open on film. I just don't see any evidence that this is correct

Yeah this is correct. We have guys open in the intermmediate and deep spaces consistently, so that's not the issue. I honestly think Will is trying to protect the ball to much. Watcing Costello throw all those ints and pick 6's probably traumatized him, I know it traumatized me!

[BrunswickDawg]

Yeah this is correct. We have guys open in the intermmediate and deep spaces consistently, so that's not the issue. I honestly think Will is trying to protect the ball to much. Watcing Costello throw all those ints and pick 6's probably traumatized him, I know it traumatized me!

I wonder if going against Emerson & Forbes in practice has anything to do with this as well? If I were a QB practicing against those two, I could see it making me gun-shy in a game.

[Todd4State]

Yeah this is correct. We have guys open in the intermmediate and deep spaces consistently, so that's not the issue. I honestly think Will is trying to protect the ball to much. Watcing Costello throw all those ints and pick 6's probably traumatized him, I know it traumatized me!

Yeah. Will is the complete opposite of Henig. If he doesn't know what to do he just checks it down. As opposed to chuck it down the field as hard as he can.

I think Will is going to develop out of it. I think he just needs more reps. He has started what? 8 games or something like that?

[Commercecomet24]

I wonder if going against Emerson & Forbes in practice has anything to do with this as well? If I were a QB practicing against those two, I could see it making me gun-shy in a game.

Yeah those 2 are pretty spiffy! Like Smoot and Bean from years ago accept these 2 maybe better.

[Commercecomet24]

Yeah. Will is the complete opposite of Henig. If he doesn't know what to do he just checks it down. As opposed to chuck it down the field as hard as he can.

I think Will is going to develop out of it. I think he just needs more reps. He has started what? 8 games or something like that?

Lol yeah Henig, I swear that guy actually tried to throw the ball through defenders a couple of times. I think Chuck and pray was his motto.

[Todd4State]

Would certainly help. Hopefully we see more of that this week

We should be taking a minimum of 5-7 deep shots a game with this offense. Even if he doesn't hit them it will open up the underneath stuff and running game more.

[Todd4State]

Lol yeah Henig, I swear that guy actually tried to throw the ball through defenders a couple of times. I think Chuck and pray was his motto.

I definitely prayed a lot when he was at QB.

[ShotgunDawg]

Lol yeah Henig, I swear that guy actually tried to throw the ball through defenders a couple of times. I think Chuck and pray was his motto.

That was about the only way in the Croom offense

I think Henig had a good arm. With average coaching, I think he could've been decent

[Commercecomet24]

That was about the only way in the Croom offense

I think Henig had a good arm. With average coaching, I think he could've been decent

Henig had an extremely strong arm and you're right Crooms offense was horrid

[thf24]

My two cents.

I don't like the offense we are running. I think the scheme is the problem, not Will. If we are going to run this offense, Will is perfectly capable of thriving in this offense.

The reason he is having to dump the ball off is because teams have schemed the hell out of this offense. They have tons of film on this offense, and its the same shit every week. Our big plays are either plays where Will scrambles out of the pocket and a defender comes up and gets out of their pre-designated zone and then someone is open or a DC attempts to blitz and we simply can get that ball off.

Will is doing exactly what he is being asked to do in this offense. If his arm was stronger, the WR's wouldn't be more open. LEach's offense has rarely stretched the field vertically. Its not that type of offense. Its not a coincidence that we keep having to punt 6-7 times a game, regardless of who is playing defense. LT, bears, NC State - we always end up punting 6-7 times a game.

Its very easy to blame Will, but a stronger armed QB is not the solution. Hell, KJ had a stronger arm, and that didn't do us any favors last year.

Its the offense, not the QB.

That was true last year, but it doesn't sound like you're watching the same games as most of the rest of us this season. We've had guys running wide open all over the field through these first two games that Will just isn't finding consistently enough. Whether the issue is talent or just lack of experience (I'm rooting for the latter), our bottleneck right now is largely QB play. A lot of it could go on the OL in pass pro the first week too, not so much the second.

[BrunswickDawg]

I think it's a combination of 2 things:

1. Rogers is an adequate, very football smart game manager.

2. This offense will limit anyone to a degree. In the Big 12 and Pac-12 they had guys breaking away for big plays- that happens alot less in the SEC. Teams are playing soft pass D and then running downhill and blowing people up. The defensive philosophy against Leach has changed over the years. We cant usually throw quick because of the coverages against us. So everything has to develop. It's really hard to throw against 7 and 8 players play after play. Rogers almost never gets the luxury of going only against 6 in the Secondary as most QB's get often vs a 4 man front and 1 blitzer.

I dug into #2 a little to see what accuracy there is to the idea that the SEC gives up fewer big plays than others. I only looked at 2019 - since that was the last full season and included everyone playing similar schedules. I looked at the Top 16 defenses for fewest 20+ yard pass plays given up; and I looked at the Top 16 Offenses for most 20+ yard pass plays gained. I chose Top 16 because that is 25% of the total number of P5 programs.

Top 16 Defenses for fewest 20+ yard pass plays given up broke down to: B1G (6), G5 (3), SEC (3), Indys (1 - ND) ACC,PAC 12 & B12 (1 each): So B1G had the stingiest defenses in terms of pass plays given up.
Top1 16 Offenses for most 20+ yard pass plays completed broke down to: G5 (7), ACC, B1G & SEC (2 each); Indys (1 - ND), and B12 & P12 (1 each): So G5's threw the most for long gains.

So, I'd say that B1G defends against long passes better than any conference - as they have the fewest big plays given up AND the 2nd fewest big pass plays completed amongst the top 16.2 However, with their run-heavy offenses, the numbers may be skewed.
I'd also say that the P12 and B12 are worse then the SEC - but not by a huge amount.

[Coach34]

I dug into #2 a little to see what accuracy there is to the idea that the SEC gives up fewer big plays than others. I only looked at 2019 - since that was the last full season and included everyone playing similar schedules. I looked at the Top 16 defenses for fewest 20+ yard pass plays given up; and I looked at the Top 16 Offenses for most 20+ yard pass plays gained. I chose Top 16 because that is 25% of the total number of P5 programs.

Top 16 Defenses for fewest 20+ yard pass plays given up broke down to: B1G (6), G5 (3), SEC (3), Indys (1 - ND) ACC,PAC 12 & B12 (1 each): So B1G had the stingiest defenses in terms of pass plays given up.
Top1 16 Offenses for most 20+ yard pass plays completed broke down to: G5 (7), ACC, B1G & SEC (2 each); Indys (1 - ND), and B12 & P12 (1 each): So G5's threw the most for long gains.

So, I'd say that B1G defends against long passes better than any conference - as they have the fewest big plays given up AND the 2nd fewest big pass plays completed amongst the top 16.2 However, with their run-heavy offenses, the numbers may be skewed.
I'd also say that the P12 and B12 are worse then the SEC - but not by a huge amount.

I was talking Drop 8 vs Leach's Wishbone2020 offense. Check 20 plus pass plays at Wazzu vs here at State

Normally the SEC will play in your ass M2M- which will allow for some big plays

[Maverick91]

I agree. I think Will has the physical skills to do the job but seems to be restricted mentally from preforming as an above average SEC QB. By this, I don't mean a Wonderlic score but the mental confidence to get the job done on a high level. I'm curious to know if last year's high turnover rate at the QB position made him overly conservative with his approach to the position. Playing not to lose. Does he have the "deer in headlights" outlook in his head?

solid question, only time will tell. If so, hopefully that gets corrected soon.

[Maroonthirteen]

My two cents.

I don't like the offense we are running. I think the scheme is the problem, not Will. If we are going to run this offense, Will is perfectly capable of thriving in this offense.

The reason he is having to dump the ball off is because teams have schemed the hell out of this offense. They have tons of film on this offense, and its the same shit every week. Our big plays are either plays where Will scrambles out of the pocket and a defender comes up and gets out of their pre-designated zone and then someone is open or a DC attempts to blitz and we simply can get that ball off.

Will is doing exactly what he is being asked to do in this offense. If his arm was stronger, the WR's wouldn't be more open. LEach's offense has rarely stretched the field vertically. Its not that type of offense. Its not a coincidence that we keep having to punt 6-7 times a game, regardless of who is playing defense. LT, bears, NC State - we always end up punting 6-7 times a game.

Its very easy to blame Will, but a stronger armed QB is not the solution. Hell, KJ had a stronger arm, and that didn't do us any favors last year.

Its the offense, not the QB.

Bingo. The "Air raid" is a one dimensional, short passing offense.

These guys want to blame the QB because you can replace a Qb mid game. Quick fix. Where as admitting it is the scheme... well that isn't an over night fix.



Flame on. Leach will win some here. However if you think a new QB will be throwing bombs and putting up 50pts ppg.... that just isn't happening with this offense.

[ShotgunDawg]

Bingo. The "Air raid" is a one demential, short passing offense.

These guys want to blame the QB because you can replace a Qb mid game. Quick fix. Where as admitting it is the scheme... well that isn't an over night fix.



Flame on. Leach will win some here. However if you think a new QB will be throwing bombs and putting up 50pts ppg.... that just isn't happening with this offense.

What offense in the Power 5 has been good with a Rogers level QB?

[dawgman15]

Mac Jones won a national championship? Are you going to tell me he is extremely athletic with the strongest arm on the planet?

[R2Dawg]

Bingo. The "Air raid" is a one dimensional, short passing offense.

These guys want to blame the QB because you can replace a Qb mid game. Quick fix. Where as admitting it is the scheme... well that isn't an over night fix.



Flame on. Leach will win some here. However if you think a new QB will be throwing bombs and putting up 50pts ppg.... that just isn't happening with this offense.

Yep nailed it 13.

KJ was a good QB until he ran air raid with drop 8 in the SEC. If you say he wasn't go read the threads before the season and after LSU game. Gun, you are funny.

[Maroonthirteen]

2018 Gardner Minshew was #1 in pass attempts and completions by approximately 100 passes in each. However he was #2 in yards passing with over 100 more completions than the 1st place guy. Also his yards per attempt were not in the top 20 of QBs that year.

[msstate7]

Mac Jones won a national championship? Are you going to tell me he is extremely athletic with the strongest arm on the planet?

Mac Jones was a 1st rounder, and the current starting qb in New England. You really wanna make this comparison?

[ShotgunDawg]

Mac Jones won a national championship? Are you going to tell me he is extremely athletic with the strongest arm on the planet?

Strongest arm on the planet? Kind of a ridiculous statement there by you.

As to your question, I don't think Mac is a great talent, but he does have better tools than Will across the board. Bigger, stronger, faster, better arm, & quicker release

[ShotgunDawg]

Yep nailed it 13.

KJ was a good QB until he ran air raid with drop 8 in the SEC. If you say he wasn't go read the threads before the season and after LSU game. Gun, you are funny.

Comparing a QB in the air raid to one in David Shaw's offense is about like comparing mowing the yard to playing Tennis

[dawgman15]

Mac Jones was a 1st rounder, and the current starting qb in New England. You really wanna make this comparison?

I do want to make the comparison, as far as physical tools they are very similar

[Percho]

Without a doubt, the dumbest 6 page thread in history!

[ShotgunDawg]

as far as physical tools they are very similar

No they aren't similar. There isn't one tool that Rogers has that is equal to or better than Mac & I'm not even a big Mac fan

[Commercecomet24]

Without a doubt, the dumbest 6 page thread in history!

It's a slow midweek day on ED, lol.

[dawgman15]

No they aren't similar. There isn't one tool that Rogers has that is equal to or better than Mac & I'm not even a big Mac fan

That's your eye not mine? See how that works, your opinion doesn't mean jack shit

[Maverick91]

That was true last year, but it doesn't sound like you're watching the same games as most of the rest of us this season. We've had guys running wide open all over the field through these first two games that Will just isn't finding consistently enough. Whether the issue is talent or just lack of experience (I'm rooting for the latter), our bottleneck right now is largely QB play. A lot of it could go on the OL in pass pro the first week too, not so much the second.

agreed!

[Maverick91]

Mac Jones won a national championship? Are you going to tell me he is extremely athletic with the strongest arm on the planet?

Mac Jones also was taken in the 1st round of the NFL draft. No QB with an inadequate arm is being taken that high. He proved he could throw the ball down the field.

[confucius say]

27% of Mac Jones's passes last year were behind the line of scrimmage or at the line of scrimmage. That led the country by over 5 percentage points. And would have led in 2019. That is a crazy stat.
Interestingly, you'd have to go back to 2018 to find a comparison in guess who, gardener minshew.

But yes, he is better than will Rogers.

[dawgman15]

Who is to say that Will Rogers can't progress into that. Mac Jones wasn't out their slinging it around as a true freshman, or true sophomore he didnt start until most of the way through his junior year. I swear I don't get how yall count players out at such a young age. I'm not saying Will is the best qb around but to say he doesn't have the tools to be a legit QB is dumb

[Todd4State]

Who is to say that Will Rogers can't progress into that. Mac Jones wasn't out their slinging it around as a true freshman, or true sophomore he didnt start until most of the way through his junior year. I swear I don't get how yall count players out at such a young age. I'm not saying Will is the best qb around but to say he doesn't have the tools to be a legit QB is dumb

It's like MSU fans don't believe a player will get better. Even though it happens the majority of the time.

[msstate7]

That's your eye not mine? See how that works, your opinion doesn't mean jack shit

So you predicting will is a 1st round qb?

[KOdawg1]

Alright, I'll chime in and give my 2 cents..

I think a little bit of everything y'all are saying is correct.

-Will has a below average to average arm
-His pocket awareness isn't great
-He limits this offense to what it can do, but he can still be functional in it with quick decisions and good football IQ

BUT

I don't think Leach is helping him out. As C34 pointed out, Will is having to squeeze passes by 8 defenders. While other QBs in the country are only having to beat around 6. We've got to be able to run the ball EFFECTIVELY to make this thing work. Not necessarily more (even though more would be better), but effectively. Our OL sucked in this area Saturday night because they didn't get any push whatsoever, but we literally only have 2 running plays. No creativity. We don't run many counters, we run zero sweeps, we practiced a read option in practice.. where the hell is that? I know I'm asking Leach to do something he's never had to do, which is to adapt. But until we take some of the pressure off Will, his weaknesses are just going to be magnified and we'll continue to dink, dunk, and pray we don't have a negative play that derails the drive. This air raid in its current form is not going to work in the SEC. You can write that down. But if we take the air raid and add modern concepts like many Leach disciples have done, then it'll have a chance to work.

[RiverCityDawg]

I keep checking this thread to see if BuckyisaB*tch has responded yet, but nothing so far...

[msstate7]

I keep checking this thread to see if BuckyisaB*tch has responded yet, but nothing so far...

We'll smoke em out soon...

Haha

[TaleofTwoDogs]

No need in arguing, Shotgun's eye is the best around. He knows exactly how much JT daniels benchpresses just from a quick glance. He has a gift I tell you

Ha, Ha, Ha..an internet football god with the all seeing eye...all Hail the Eye.

[ShotgunDawg]

It's like MSU fans don't believe a player will get better. Even though it happens the majority of the time.

Come on Todd

[Cowbell]

Come on Todd
He's right. By your standards, Trevor Lawrence is gonna suck in the pros.

[Maroonthirteen]

27% of Mac Jones's passes last year were behind the line of scrimmage or at the line of scrimmage. That led the country by over 5 percentage points. And would have led in 2019. That is a crazy stat.
Interestingly, you'd have to go back to 2018 to find a comparison in guess who, gardener minshew.

But yes, he is better than will Rogers.

I have no idea what Mac Jones has to do with any of this. ..and I don't care to know.

I used 2018 and Minshew because unlike Mac Jones, he played in Leachs offense. Which is what I thought was the subject of conversation. Also I use Minshew and 2018 because that was a damn good year for WSU. Also I think we can agree Minshew is a talented QB. Maybe..... maybe.

My whole point in chiming in on any of this, is to defend Rogers. Rogers is a good QB and will get better. Even if the offense calls for -5 to 5 yard passes.

[Patrick Tibbons]

It's like MSU fans don't believe a player will get better. Even though it happens the majority of the time.

It?s comical. I guess most of these posters forgot that arguably the best player to ever wear a State uniform wasn?t going to start at QB in his THIRD year on the team until Tyler Russell got hurt. But these same posters want to write off Will after a handful of starts in his 2nd year.

[Cowbell]

WILL smoke em out soon...

Haha
FIFY

[OLJWales]

"If only I was HC things would be perfect"

[confucius say]

I have no idea what Mac Jones has to do with any of this. ..and I don't care to know.

I used 2018 and Minshew because unlike Mac Jones, he played in Leachs offense. Which is what I thought was the subject of conversation. Also I use Minshew and 2018 because that was a damn good year for WSU. Also I think we can agree Minshew is a talented QB. Maybe..... maybe.

My whole point in chiming in on any of this, is to defend Rogers. Rogers is a good QB and will get better. Even if the offense calls for -5 to 5 yard passes.

I agree with you

[msstate7]

FIFY

Lol

[Commercecomet24]

"If only I was HC things would be perfect"

Good one and so true! That is the opinion of many message board HC's!

[Todd4State]

Come on Todd

Skill set wise? No. But making the better decision, more accurate throw, better footwork, and making the right read with more experience? Yes. Which is improvement.

I can think of at least three plays off the top of my head where if Will throws the ball just slightly more accurately we blow them out. And I do think Will is likely going to make that adjustment as he gets older. That touchdown pass he made to Heath was good enough for anything else in this offense. He needs to do that more often and consistently. Like that pass to Polk where it was slightly off- it had plenty on it distance wise- but he has to make that pass. It was a similar pass he made to Walley to get the go ahead TD the week before.

He can throw the ball downfield about 50 yards and that's good enough for the SEC for what we're doing to be good enough to succeed. Now it's more about consistency and reading defense better and mastering the system. Leach's Air Raid is a YAC system it's not a downfield passing system like what LSU did a couple of years ago with Brady. We just need someone to get the ball in space to guys like Walley accurately and then they use the space to make an explosive play.

[Todd4State]

It?s comical. I guess most of these posters forgot that arguably the best player to ever wear a State uniform wasn?t going to start at QB in his THIRD year on the team until Tyler Russell got hurt. But these same posters want to write off Will after a handful of starts in his 2nd year.

Exactly. Where Will is right now is about where Dak was in 2013. It's just hard to play QB when you're an underclassman unless you are Peyton Manning- and even he would tell you it wasn't easy for him I'm sure.

All these MSU fans I see talking about how great Matt Corral is. Apparently they have forgotten that he was essentially benched his second year in college for John Rhys Plumlee. In fact he lost to Memphis- Will might too we'll see Saturday. Anyway Corral was like 9-19 and didn't even have 100 yards passing against them while they scored 10 points on them. Now I guarantee you if you had a time machine fourth year Matt Corral lights up that Memphis team. Why? Experience. He got better over time.

And you're right- Dak improved as a QB in 2014. And then he improved his passing even more in 2015 behind an OL that was pretty bad and with Holloway up the middle.

[ShotgunDawg]

Exactly. Where Will is right now is about where Dak was in 2013. It's just hard to play QB when you're an underclassman unless you are Peyton Manning- and even he would tell you it wasn't easy for him I'm sure.

All these MSU fans I see talking about how great Matt Corral is. Apparently they have forgotten that he was essentially benched his second year in college for John Rhys Plumlee. In fact he lost to Memphis- Will might too we'll see Saturday. Anyway Corral was like 9-19 and didn't even have 100 yards passing against them while they scored 10 points on them. Now I guarantee you if you had a time machine fourth year Matt Corral lights up that Memphis team. Why? Experience. He got better over time.

And you're right- Dak improved as a QB in 2014. And then he improved his passing even more in 2015 behind an OL that was pretty bad and with Holloway up the middle.

But Dak & Corral had athleticism & tools to build on

[OLJWales]

But Dak & Corral had athleticism & tools to build on

Can't wait for the OK Corral. Maroon dressed Wyatt Earp and Doc gonna whip some ass. I'm fiddy 8 jammin to pearls betta man as I type. Peace Out and HailSTATE!!!!!

[Jack Lambert]

He's right. By your standards, Trevor Lawrence is gonna suck in the pros.

And Tom Brady would be selling insurance.

[Todd4State]

But Dak & Corral had athleticism & tools to build on

Doesn't matter. Nick Fitzgerald had better raw tools than Dak too. That doesn't mean it will always translate.

What does matter is if he can make the best decisions in this offense and execute slightly better when he has to. We're talking a second or two off. If he was a junior or senior and doing the same things I would agree more. But he's a sophomore who didn't redshirt. He just needs game reps. I think he learned a lot Saturday. I know Leach knows because I saw him taking to Will and he mentioned it in the postgame. Now it's up to Will to learn and apply it.

[ShotgunDawg]

Doesn't matter. Nick Fitzgerald had better raw tools than Dak too. That doesn't mean it will always translate.

What does matter is if he can make the best decisions in this offense and execute slightly better when he has to. We're talking a second or two off. If he was a junior or senior and doing the same things I would agree more. But he's a sophomore who didn't redshirt. He just needs game reps. I think he learned a lot Saturday. I know Leach knows because I saw him taking to Will and he mentioned it in the postgame. Now it's up to Will to learn and apply it.

Nick never threw the ball close to Dak. What are you looking at Todd?

[BrunswickDawg]

Nick never threw the ball close to Dak. What are you looking at Todd?

Nick had an absolute canon of an arm, but couldn't harness it to make himself a better QB. He was also considerably faster and more athletic - he was an All-Region WR his JR. year in HS. Those are the raw tools that he had better than Dak.
You are also correct that he never could throw as well as Dak. But those tools are why Mullen offered Nick as a QB before he'd ever thrown a pass in a football game.

[msstate7]

I see all kinds of pro names popping up in comparisons. My absolute peak Will comparison would be Danny weurffel without a supporting cast in the same galaxy.

[dawgman15]

I see all kinds of pro names popping up in comparisons. My absolute peak Will comparison would be Danny weurffel without a supporting cast in the same galaxy.

So you're saying he's Heisman worthy?

[msstate7]

So you're saying he's Heisman worthy?

Absolutely if you surround him with the best talent in the country, and he hits his absolute ceiling.

[dawgman15]

Absolutely if you surround him with the best talent in the country, and he hits his absolute ceiling.

Well we know that one of those things will never happen

[Todd4State]

I see all kinds of pro names popping up in comparisons. My absolute peak Will comparison would be Danny weurffel without a supporting cast in the same galaxy.

Wuerffel would be an accurate comp.

[Cowbell]

Nick never threw the ball close to Dak. What are you looking at Todd?

Yeah nick had more raw arm talent than dak

[KOdawg1]

Yeah nick had more raw arm talent than dak

He had more arm strength than Dak. Nick couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but he could throw through the barn

[msstate7]

Damn shame Nick didn't get his offseason leading up to senior season with mullen. I think nick woulda made a nice jump passing

[OLJWales]

He had more arm strength than Dak. Nick couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but he could throw through the barn

Cristil said sumpthin like that eons ago about a strong armed QB we had way back when.

[ShotgunDawg]

Yeah nick had more raw arm talent than dak

No. Not close. Pure arm strength isn't the same arm talent.

[Cowbell]

No. Not close. Pure arm strength isn't the same arm talent.
RAW ARM talent. Dak had to work for everything he has become. His raw arm talent is what kept him from getting recruited by other schools. Your QB assessment skills need some polishing. Pretty raw...

[Cowbell]

Damn shame Nick didn't get his offseason leading up to senior season with mullen. I think nick woulda made a nice jump passing

Yes. And he didn't have near the receivers that dak had either

[Schultzy]

Don’t y’all remember the time Nick threw the game ending Hail Mary into the student section? That’s what you call raw ass talent.

[OLJWales]

Don’t y’all remember the time Nick threw the game ending Hail Mary into the student section? That’s what you call raw ass talent.

LMAO

[Coach34]

RAW ARM talent. Dak had to work for everything he has become. His raw arm talent is what kept him from getting recruited by other schools. Your QB assessment skills need some polishing. Pretty raw...

Dak had plenty of talent. I never really understood why he wasnt recruited more heavily than he was. He is still the best QB I've seen play in HS. It's not like he struggled throwing in HS- he threw for over 6,000 yards in his HS career. He was completing 50 yard Go routes on the reg. At State- he got better with footwork and changed his delivery slightly. Now he is one of the best in the NFL. I compare Dak to Steve McNair. You could look at both of them in college and just wonder- "how in the hell did so many miss seeing this talent?" Blows my mind Jackie and his staff wanted him to be a DB. Almost as bad as us missing on Jerry Rice in our backyard.

Fitz had a cannon- but it was a loose cannon. He just never developed the accuracy or touch needed to make it in the NFL. I think some of that is him moving to QB late with only 1 year of HS at the position. But some people just never develop that and it is what it is. Same with pitchers.

[OLJWales]

Dak had plenty of talent. I never really understood why he wasnt recruited more heavily than he was. He is still the best QB I've seen play in HS. It's not like he struggled throwing in HS- he threw for over 6,000 yards in his HS career. He was completing 50 yard Go routes on the reg. At State- he got better with footwork and changed his delivery slightly. Now he is one of the best in the NFL. I compare Dak to Steve McNair. You could look at both of them in college and just wonder- "how in the hell did so many miss seeing this talent?" Blows my mind Jackie and his staff wanted him to be a DB. Almost as bad as us missing on Jerry Rice in our backyard.

Fitz had a cannon- but it was a loose cannon. He just never developed the accuracy or touch needed to make it in the NFL. I think some of that is him moving to QB late with only 1 year of HS at the position. But some people just never develop that and it is what it is. Same with pitchers.

Wasn't Dak on the heavy side when a Jr? Didn't Mullen axe him to get in better shape? If memory serves he did just that and gotta late LSU offer. I've always respected Dak for staying true despite him being a LSU fan growing up.

[BrunswickDawg]

Dak had plenty of talent. I never really understood why he wasnt recruited more heavily than he was. He is still the best QB I've seen play in HS. It's not like he struggled throwing in HS- he threw for over 6,000 yards in his HS career. He was completing 50 yard Go routes on the reg. At State- he got better with footwork and changed his delivery slightly. Now he is one of the best in the NFL. I compare Dak to Steve McNair. You could look at both of them in college and just wonder- "how in the hell did so many miss seeing this talent?" Blows my mind Jackie and his staff wanted him to be a DB. Almost as bad as us missing on Jerry Rice in our backyard.

Fitz had a cannon- but it was a loose cannon. He just never developed the accuracy or touch needed to make it in the NFL. I think some of that is him moving to QB late with only 1 year of HS at the position. But some people just never develop that and it is what it is. Same with pitchers.

I think that's where people kind of differ on what should be considered "raw" talent. "Raw" talent to me is unrefined and just pure athletic ability. Dak is and was an incredible athlete, intense worker, etc. What kept him off the field at State was typical transition from HS to college stuff. But, he had already been learning the game and position before he got here. To me that's not raw. Fitz literally learned to play QB at State. He had never thrown a pass in a football game when he was offered a scholarship by Mullen. He threw less than 100 passes in high school - the fact he was a starting SEC QB as a RS Sophomore is damn near unheard of. As I fanbase, I don't think most ever realized how far that guy had to go to be as good as he was.

[Johnson85]

I think that's where people kind of differ on what should be considered "raw" talent. "Raw" talent to me is unrefined and just pure athletic ability. Dak is and was an incredible athlete, intense worker, etc. What kept him off the field at State was typical transition from HS to college stuff. But, he had already been learning the game and position before he got here. To me that's not raw. Fitz literally learned to play QB at State. He had never thrown a pass in a football game when he was offered a scholarship by Mullen. He threw less than 100 passes in high school - the fact he was a starting SEC QB as a RS Sophomore is damn near unheard of. As I fanbase, I don't think most ever realized how far that guy had to go to be as good as he was.

Dak and Fitz both had raw arm talent, but unless you're just calling arm strength talent, it's hard to tell who had more raw talent because Dak played a couple of years of QB throwing the ball before getting to MSU, while Nick came to MSU with practically no game experience throwing the ball.

It's hard to say whether Fitz reached his ceiling because of his injury and then changing offense his last year. He didn't appear to get any more accurate his last year, after presumably a lot of practice, but he was having to rehab and learn a new offense at the same time, so that may have stopped him from continuing to get better the way Dak did between 2014 and 2015.

[confucius say]

Nick never threw the ball close to Dak. What are you looking at Todd?

Nick was bigger, faster, more athletic, and a stronger arm. Using your metrics he should have been way better than Dak.
All that was missing was the accuracy and decision making, which are the two most important attributes of a qb (both of which will could be very good at by the way).

[confucius say]

No. Not close. Pure arm strength isn't the same arm talent.

But you chose arm strength as one of your 5 metrics on page 2 of this thread. Nick had more arm strength, speed, quickness, and athleticism than Dak. 4 out of 5.

If you want to change it to arm talent that is fine.

[Cowbell]

I think that's where people kind of differ on what should be considered "raw" talent. "Raw" talent to me is unrefined and just pure athletic ability. Dak is and was an incredible athlete, intense worker, etc. What kept him off the field at State was typical transition from HS to college stuff. But, he had already been learning the game and position before he got here. To me that's not raw. Fitz literally learned to play QB at State. He had never thrown a pass in a football game when he was offered a scholarship by Mullen. He threw less than 100 passes in high school - the fact he was a starting SEC QB as a RS Sophomore is damn near unheard of. As I fanbase, I don't think most ever realized how far that guy had to go to be as good as he was.

This is how I feel as well

[Tbonewannabe]

Dak had plenty of talent. I never really understood why he wasnt recruited more heavily than he was. He is still the best QB I've seen play in HS. It's not like he struggled throwing in HS- he threw for over 6,000 yards in his HS career. He was completing 50 yard Go routes on the reg. At State- he got better with footwork and changed his delivery slightly. Now he is one of the best in the NFL. I compare Dak to Steve McNair. You could look at both of them in college and just wonder- "how in the hell did so many miss seeing this talent?" Blows my mind Jackie and his staff wanted him to be a DB. Almost as bad as us missing on Jerry Rice in our backyard.

Fitz had a cannon- but it was a loose cannon. He just never developed the accuracy or touch needed to make it in the NFL. I think some of that is him moving to QB late with only 1 year of HS at the position. But some people just never develop that and it is what it is. Same with pitchers.

I worked with one of Steve's top WR at Alcorn. The guy went on almost every visit with him also. Every coach in the SEC offered him at DB. The thing was, Steve didn't like playing DB but was the best in the state also. He went to Alcorn because they promised him that he wasn't ever going to DB since his older brother was their best QB before him. Every other school was basically, we might give you a shot at QB but you will be a DB.

Also NC State was one of the only QB offers for Philip Rivers. He was offered by almost everyone in the SEC at LB or Safety. Sometimes guys miss evaluations.

[Commercecomet24]

Nick was bigger, faster, more athletic, and a stronger arm. Using your metrics he should have been way better than Dak.
All that was missing was the accuracy and decision making, which are the two most important attributes of a qb (both of which will could be very good at by the way).

This is true.

[Patrick Tibbons]

Bump

[msstate7]

Bump

We've come a long way. We are pretty dang good offensively now, but we weren't at the time of this thread. Hats off to leach, will, and the whole offense for making an unbelievable jump

[Lord McBuckethead]

Not sure If I believe Nick had a stronger arm than Dak.