Cleveland Indians now the Cleveland Guardians

[Irondawg]

Not a fan of that name personally unless they pick Rocket Racoon as their mascot.

I was pulling for "Tribe" to keep the heritage but not the potentially offensive moniker.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31868331/cleveland-changing-name-indians-guardians

[William Tecumsah Sherman]

Goodbye to Chiefs, Braves, Rangers, Cowboys, etc

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Goodbye to Chiefs, Braves, Rangers, Cowboys, etc

and Patriots and Raiders.

[FISHDAWG]

I don't even watch MLB or the NFL anymore ... they can all change their names to some type of fish for all I care.... And MLB / NFL are to blame - not me because they sure don't give a damn about offending me

[William Tecumsah Sherman]

49ers too

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Saints

[BulldogDX55]

Bunch of snowflakes in this thread.

The only one's on the chopping block are Cleveland, which had a REALLY racist mascot, Washington, whose name is literally a slur (I don't want to hear you complaining about Ole Miss being the slave owners wife if you don't call this out), and maybe the Braves, but that one might be safe because it isn't inherently negative, but there's a legit concern about using a type of people as a mascot - just like you shouldn't wear a race or culture as a costume for Halloween. It's okay to admit that some stuff created in the past was bad and should be changed. Doesn't take away any joy you had cheering for them in the past and doesn't make you a bad person for having cheered for those teams. You didn't know better and it was a different time.

Literally none of this will have any negative consequences for you personally, you won't be harmed in any way, and nothing in your life will meaningfully change for the better or worse with this.

[William Tecumsah Sherman]

Cowboys killed Indians. They have to go next.

[Irondawg]

I?m fine with idea of ?Indians? or ?Redskins? being considered offensive and you make a good point about Ole Miss.

But not sure a cartoon mascot should be considered too offensive because they?re supposed to be silly. Notre Dame, Boston Celtics, San Diego Padres all have goofy looking people mascots.

Like everything else it?s a matter of being reasonable. I just hate that both Washington and Cleveland couldn?t find a way to honor Native American culture in some way and have run away from it because of fear of losing a PR battle.

Names like the Braves, Chiefs should be considered respectful in my opinion as those words should have a positive association to everyone.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

Bunch of snowflakes in this thread.

The only one's on the chopping block are Cleveland, which had a REALLY racist mascot, Washington, whose name is literally a slur (I don't want to hear you complaining about Ole Miss being the slave owners wife if you don't call this out), and maybe the Braves, but that one might be safe because it isn't inherently negative, but there's a legit concern about using a type of people as a mascot - just like you shouldn't wear a race or culture as a costume for Halloween. It's okay to admit that some stuff created in the past was bad and should be changed. Doesn't take away any joy you had cheering for them in the past and doesn't make you a bad person for having cheered for those teams. You didn't know better and it was a different time.

Literally none of this will have any negative consequences for you personally, you won't be harmed in any way, and nothing in your life will meaningfully change for the better or worse with this.

So no Patriots or Raiders or Saints or Cowboys or ..............

If we are going to bend to political pressure, then let's do it all the way. It's kind of like it's okay to have a movie called "White Men Can't Jump", but it's not okay to have a movie called "Black Men can't do well on the ACT." Let's either do it or not.

[William Tecumsah Sherman]

Braves and chiefs will absolutely be next. They are toast.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

Not a fan of that name personally unless they pick Rocket Racoon as their mascot.

I was pulling for "Tribe" to keep the heritage but not the potentially offensive moniker.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31868331/cleveland-changing-name-indians-guardians

95% of people offended by their name were not native american descendants.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

Goodbye to Chiefs, Braves, Rangers, Cowboys, etc

Rebels

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

So no Patriots or Raiders or Saints or Cowboys or ..............

If we are going to bend to political pressure, then let's do it all the way. It's kind of like it's okay to have a movie called "White Men Can't Jump", but it's not okay to have a movie called "Black Men can't do well on the ACT." Let's either do it or not.

Great Point!

[RougeDawg]

95% of people offended by their name were not native american descendants.

Bbbbbbbbbbingo!!!! The majority of native Americans did not even really care. This is all about power and conformity into submission. The people behind this are doing it in all aspects of American society. I believe this has been tried before in Europe and China over the last 200 years or so. How did that all end?

People better wake up. It has nothing to do with being offended or helping out certain groups. It?s simply a method to create Balkanization of groups in this nation, which dissolves the national pride, and then they control everything because we were too stupid enough not to see what they were attempting to do. Divide and conquer.

[Bothrops]

95% of people offended by their name were not native american descendants.

100% fact

[Leroy Jenkins]

Soon we will erase all reminders of those native savages. They will be nothing but fairy tales. #Woke

[NCDawg]

Goodbye to Chiefs, Braves, Rangers, Cowboys, etc

Quite a few Yankees owned slaves also. Despite all the looting, raping and burning on the South during the war, William Tecumsah Sherman stated he wasn't opposed to slavery. Think Yankees name should be banned with the rest of them..

[starkvegasdawg]

Wait til PETA comes after animal mascots.

[Commercecomet24]

Wait til PETA comes after animal mascots.

It's already happening. PETA instagram/twitter said we should refrain from using animal names because it denigrates and furthers animal suffering. There really is no end to this. None. You can find any group that will be offended by any word or name.

[Offshore Dawg]

This is a fine example were PC just sucks a dogs ass.

[parabrave]

I think a fitting name for Cleveland should be "the Fire", "the Sludge" after the Cuyahoga river or "the fighting Dorns"/

[ShotgunDawg]

Activists don?t have jobs unless they?re active. So yes, they?ll absolutely find something to go after next

[Quaoarsking]

95% of people offended by their name were not native american descendants.

That kinda has to be true when Native Americans make up around 1% of the population. If 50% of Native Americans and 10% of everyone else are "offended" (or more accurately, aren't offended, but just a little uncomfortable with it), your 95:5 ratio holds.

Obviously those aren't the right numbers, I'm just pointing out how it would be close to impossible for your statement to be false.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

That kinda has to be true when Native Americans make up around 1% of the population. If 50% of Native Americans and 10% of everyone else are "offended" (or more accurately, aren't offended, but just a little uncomfortable with it), your 95:5 ratio holds.

Obviously those aren't the right numbers, I'm just pointing out how it would be close to impossible for your statement to be false.

O?..k. My point of this was Native Americans are not the ones offended

[DownwardDawg]

Not a fan of that name personally unless they pick Rocket Racoon as their mascot.

I was pulling for "Tribe" to keep the heritage but not the potentially offensive moniker.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31868331/cleveland-changing-name-indians-guardians

Thank goodness!! Maybe I can sleep at night now. ***

[Hambone]

Who?s the first team to be called the Wokes?

Haha

[Leeshouldveflanked]

If we switch back to The Maroons will someone be offended by that?

[Saltydog]

Not a fan of that name personally unless they pick Rocket Racoon as their mascot.

I was pulling for "Tribe" to keep the heritage but not the potentially offensive moniker.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31868331/cleveland-changing-name-indians-guardians

Yet more pandering and caving to pc and the vocal minority. It?s literally effing stupid. Just gives me another reason not to watch MLB.

[Ari Gold]

Everything to these people is racist .. if you disagree with that then you are a racist

[Bothrops]

If we switch back to The Maroons will someone be offended by that?

Absolutely

[BulldogDX55]

So no Patriots or Raiders or Saints or Cowboys or ..............

If we are going to bend to political pressure, then let's do it all the way. It's kind of like it's okay to have a movie called "White Men Can't Jump", but it's not okay to have a movie called "Black Men can't do well on the ACT." Let's either do it or not.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between a job and someone's race or culture?

You know there's no such thing as "blue lives" either, right?

[Saltydog]

Goodbye to Chiefs, Braves, Rangers, Cowboys, etc

Only two of them will change and you know which two........

[R2Dawg]

Cowboys killed Indians. They have to go next.

Thought the same thing. There is no end to the hurt feelings and PC madness. You can't use anything.

The Cleveland Browns is racists. It has to change. Can you imagine the Tennessee Whites? I am joking but that is how stupid this is getting.

[R2Dawg]

Bunch of snowflakes in this thread.

The only one's on the chopping block are Cleveland, which had a REALLY racist mascot, Washington, whose name is literally a slur (I don't want to hear you complaining about Ole Miss being the slave owners wife if you don't call this out), and maybe the Braves, but that one might be safe because it isn't inherently negative, but there's a legit concern about using a type of people as a mascot - just like you shouldn't wear a race or culture as a costume for Halloween. It's okay to admit that some stuff created in the past was bad and should be changed. Doesn't take away any joy you had cheering for them in the past and doesn't make you a bad person for having cheered for those teams. You didn't know better and it was a different time.

Literally none of this will have any negative consequences for you personally, you won't be harmed in any way, and nothing in your life will meaningfully change for the better or worse with this.

Yes the name of a team don't affect each personally but see the forest for the trees. This ain't about a team name offending. All of this absolutely affects every person. This stuff just spreads. They never quit. These days everything is racist if you don't agree with those in power. Too many people been fired, jailed, canceled, etc. due to the insanity gripping our culture.

[RocketDawg]

Notice the last 5 characters in the name (dians) is the same as in Indians. I think they were trying to save as much of the orginal name as possible while still being politically correct.

Just my opinion, the only sports team that used Indian (or Native American if you prefer) names that was derogatory was Redskins. That was always used in the negative in old Western movies. But other teams, like Braves, Chiefs, and even Indians, are used in an honorable sense. Things are just going overboard.

[RocketDawg]

Thought the same thing. There is no end to the hurt feelings and PC madness. You can't use anything.

The Cleveland Browns is racists. It has to change. Can you imagine the Tennessee Whites? I am joking but that is how stupid this is getting.

Where's the name Browns come from? Seems nonsensical, but there must be a reason they have that name.

[RocketDawg]

It's already happening. PETA instagram/twitter said we should refrain from using animal names because it denigrates and furthers animal suffering. There really is no end to this. None. You can find any group that will be offended by any word or name.

I can sorta understand their objections to live mascots, but to object just to the name (e.g., Bulldogs, Lions) is ridiculous.

Objections to having a live tiger or longhorn steer on the field has some merit.

[RocketDawg]

49ers too

Yep. They were all white (as far as I know).


Saints

Saints have a religious meaning. Got to get rid of them.

How about the Wizards? They certainly have a KKK connection.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Where's the name Browns come from? Seems nonsensical, but there must be a reason they have that name.


Paul Brown. Co-founder and first HC.

[RocketDawg]

49ers too


Bunch of snowflakes in this thread.

The only one's on the chopping block are Cleveland, which had a REALLY racist mascot, Washington, whose name is literally a slur (I don't want to hear you complaining about Ole Miss being the slave owners wife if you don't call this out), and maybe the Braves, but that one might be safe because it isn't inherently negative, but there's a legit concern about using a type of people as a mascot - just like you shouldn't wear a race or culture as a costume for Halloween. It's okay to admit that some stuff created in the past was bad and should be changed. Doesn't take away any joy you had cheering for them in the past and doesn't make you a bad person for having cheered for those teams. You didn't know better and it was a different time.

Literally none of this will have any negative consequences for you personally, you won't be harmed in any way, and nothing in your life will meaningfully change for the better or worse with this.

I agree with your two examples - the Cleveland mascot was definitely out of date, at the very least. The team name Indians wasn't so bad though - and the other teams like Braves and Chiefs are fine because they're in a positive connotation. When I was a kid and we played Cowboys and Indians, everybody wanted to be an Indian because we looked up to them. Redskins was definitely bad, and had been for a long time.

Regarding the Halloween costumes - I see nothing wrong with the cultural costumes, for kids. Not sure when adults started dressing up for Halloween but it's crazy. Leave it to the kids and let them dress like they want to (not talking about "blackface" or any such thing).

[RocketDawg]

49ers too


So no Patriots or Raiders or Saints or Cowboys or ..............

If we are going to bend to political pressure, then let's do it all the way. It's kind of like it's okay to have a movie called "White Men Can't Jump", but it's not okay to have a movie called "Black Men can't do well on the ACT." Let's either do it or not.

Agree.

[R2Dawg]

So no Patriots or Raiders or Saints or Cowboys or ..............

If we are going to bend to political pressure, then let's do it all the way. It's kind of like it's okay to have a movie called "White Men Can't Jump", but it's not okay to have a movie called "Black Men can't do well on the ACT." Let's either do it or not.

There you go letting facts get in the way of your opinion. They never want it both ways, only one way.

[RocketDawg]

49ers too


Quite a few Yankees owned slaves also. Despite all the looting, raping and burning on the South during the war, William Tecumsah Sherman stated he wasn't opposed to slavery. Think Yankees name should be banned with the rest of them..

And Mets should be banned. Presumably, it stands for "metropolitan" and the name disenfranchises rural and small town folks.

[CaptainObvious]

Wait. Cleveland has a baseball team? When did they get one?

[Dawgsfanalongtime77]

I am groot would suffice in this situation. Just be Cleveland with nothing attached to appease everyone. Now they sound like an arena football team with penny pitcher beer night.

[BulldogDX55]

Yes the name of a team don't affect each personally but see the forest for the trees. This ain't about a team name offending. All of this absolutely affects every person. This stuff just spreads. They never quit. These days everything is racist if you don't agree with those in power. Too many people been fired, jailed, canceled, etc. due to the insanity gripping our culture.

You kind of got the point and missed it at the same time.

On one hand, you seem to have a better grasp of political power dynamics than most people on your side of the issue. The part you are missing is that because of that power dynamic, using the cultural identity of a minority group as a costume or mascot is messed up because it treats those people as less than people - as something meant for entertainment for those who are in power, as opposed people with complex lives and existences, just like everyone else. That's why Indians and Braves could be considered to be almost as bad as Redskins (which is 100% a slur. It would be like calling a team the wetbacks. Just because it's old timey and not regularly used now doesn't mean it's okay) - They never called themselves Indians, that's what white settlers called them, and then you are turning them into a RED FACED mascot which is adding insult to injury on top of the 10mil or so we genocided.

With the Braves, while it's less bad, it's still naming a sports team "Native American Warriors" and focusing on a stereotype of being war like and violent, which again is boiling down a minority group to one aspect that isn't necessarily accurate.

And to answer the other concern - this might not be where it stops, but we can examine each thing on a case by case basis. Just because you are worried about losing something you like in the future doesn't mean you have to defend every racist thing from your childhood. As I said in my initial comment - admitting that maybe the name Indians wasn't a good thing doesn't mean you are a bad person because you cheered for them as a kid. You were never cheering for the Indians. You were cheering for the professional baseball team from Cleveland that happened to be named The Indians. None of your fandom goes away with a name change and no one will judge you for cheering for them.


Yep. They were all white (as far as I know).

LOL no they weren't. People of all stripes participated in the gold rush. 49ers as a false equivalence comparison is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It was in California, which was still not part of the USA, and it was locals who participated first.

If anyone should be offended by the 49ers as a mascot, it should be native Californians. Or at least they would be, but most of them were wiped out in the California genocide when colonizers found out there was gold in them hills and murdered about 25000 of them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_genocide.




Saints have a religious meaning. Got to get rid of them.

How about the Wizards? They certainly have a KKK connection.

The Saints were named for a song and has close ties to the catholic church and their explicit permission. Plus, they don't have a mascot so much as a logo so it's not using culture as a costume.

The Wizards are just an alliteration for Washington because Bullets was a bad thing to name a team in what was the murder capital of the country at the time.

I get that your examples are facetious, but it disrespects the legitimate criticisms of the other names.

[BulldogDX55]

I agree with your two examples - the Cleveland mascot was definitely out of date, at the very least. The team name Indians wasn't so bad though - and the other teams like Braves and Chiefs are fine because they're in a positive connotation. When I was a kid and we played Cowboys and Indians, everybody wanted to be an Indian because we looked up to them. Redskins was definitely bad, and had been for a long time.

Regarding the Halloween costumes - I see nothing wrong with the cultural costumes, for kids. Not sure when adults started dressing up for Halloween but it's crazy. Leave it to the kids and let them dress like they want to (not talking about "blackface" or any such thing).

See my post above - they never called themselves Indians except to talk to white people who don't know them by any other name. Saying Indians is okay means that it was cool for white settlers to apply an incorrect name and then later celebrate the mistake by turning them into a mascot. It's worse than calling a team The Whites, The Blacks, or The Latinos.

Braves, again, less bad, but it still boils a whole diverse array of people to an aspect that they'd probably rather not have as the first thing people think about them. Not being brave, but being warlike because Braves were a word for native warriors. If you want an example of why Natives probably wouldn't like that, then look up statistics on how many of them are shot by cops annually.


There you go letting facts get in the way of your opinion. They never want it both ways, only one way.

His examples are all really bad and dumb though. See the post I made above this one. None of the "white people" mascots are negative sterotypes or titles bestowed upon them by colonizers. Even the Fighting Irish one was created by an explicitly catholic university and people can give themselves whatever the hell name they want.


And Mets should be banned. Presumably, it stands for "metropolitan" and the name disenfranchises rural and small town folks.

How are y'all this dense? I know you aren't serious, but coming up with examples like this is an insult to people who are actually harmed by this. It's also not shocking that you don't understand it because you are presumably a white dude like me and there's no mascots who do that sort of thing to us.

[PMDawg]

My wife is 1/8 native american from her dad's side. So, obviously her dad is 1/4, and her grandpa was 1/2. She has lots of siblings/cousins/aunts/uncles, etc. with a lot of native american blood. None of them were/are offended at any of the sports names...not even the dreaded "Redskins"! I also used to work on a job with IKBI, a construction company owned by the Choctaw from Philadelphia, MS. I worked with them for several years, and made quite a few friends along the way (most of their workers are from the tribe). One of them even wore a Redskins cap (the horror!), and a few of them were Braves fans, like me. Most of them admitted to being fans BECAUSE of the names, not in spite of them. I never met a single one who voiced any opposition to the names. So, in my small sample size of a few dozen people, 0% were offended. I know, it's just a personal anecdote about a tiny sample size. But it does reinforce the idea that the vocal minority are the ones who are offended (as usual).

Politics just need to be left at the door in the entertainment industry. I know there are laws and policies that forbid me from bringing politics to work, and with good reason. Because, let's be honest here, this is about politics, not offensive words or speech. If it was about offensive things, all of the buildings named after Margaret Sanger would have to go (she pushed abortion as a method to control the "black" population - you can look it up). So would Darwin's theory of evolution as well as anything with his name on it (a lot of his stuff would sound great to the third reich). It always has been, and always will be, about controlling the message.

[Extendedcab]

You kind of got the point and missed it at the same time.

On one hand, you seem to have a better grasp of political power dynamics than most people on your side of the issue. The part you are missing is that because of that power dynamic, using the cultural identity of a minority group as a costume or mascot is messed up because it treats those people as less than people - as something meant for entertainment for those who are in power, as opposed people with complex lives and existences, just like everyone else. That's why Indians and Braves could be considered to be almost as bad as Redskins (which is 100% a slur. It would be like calling a team the wetbacks. Just because it's old timey and not regularly used now doesn't mean it's okay) - They never called themselves Indians, that's what white settlers called them, and then you are turning them into a RED FACED mascot which is adding insult to injury on top of the 10mil or so we genocided.

With the Braves, while it's less bad, it's still naming a sports team "Native American Warriors" and focusing on a stereotype of being war like and violent, which again is boiling down a minority group to one aspect that isn't necessarily accurate.

And to answer the other concern - this might not be where it stops, but we can examine each thing on a case by case basis. Just because you are worried about losing something you like in the future doesn't mean you have to defend every racist thing from your childhood. As I said in my initial comment - admitting that maybe the name Indians wasn't a good thing doesn't mean you are a bad person because you cheered for them as a kid. You were never cheering for the Indians. You were cheering for the professional baseball team from Cleveland that happened to be named The Indians. None of your fandom goes away with a name change and no one will judge you for cheering for them.





The Saints were named for a song and has close ties to the catholic church and their explicit permission. Plus, they don't have a mascot so much as a logo so it's not using culture as a costume.

The Wizards are just an alliteration for Washington because Bullets was a bad thing to name a team in what was the murder capital of the country at the time.

I get that your examples are facetious, but it disrespects the legitimate criticisms of the other names.


I think you miss the point of naming a club in the first place. Club names were chosen to instill a sense of respect, awe or competitive fear in ones opponents or to present a sense of competitive toughness in ones name - if you will a reflection of the team attitude and competitiveness - how they will play on the field of competition (in case of the Saints, they would have divine guidance and protection). It is not a slur, slight, insult or other negative term in a team/club name. In fact it is an honer to have a sports team named after you or some other entity/group. Those entities earned that tough reputation at some point in history.

You don't see team names like:

- Pansies
- SnowFlakes
- Weaklings
- Offended
- Surrendered
- Powder Puffs
- Light in the Loafers
- Weak Knees
- Puppies
- Kittens
- etc.

Why is that? I would laugh my ass off having to play a team with a totally made-up nonsensical, politically correct name. What a joke. As a fan I would not watch them nor support them with my money!

The WOKE movement has no brain, they can not reason things nor do they know history in the first place. It is ALL EMOTIONAL to garner a desired response to a political end! Give an inch and they will take a mile.

NOTE: FYI ... I am 1/8 Indian - Choctaw.