Baseball Thoughts- Pre-Exams

[Todd4State]

Pre-exams meaning MSU has finals this week.

I'm taking a 5 tools approach with this- the five tools for non-baseball fans is arm strength, power, hitting for average, speed, and defense. I personally because I like to add my own thing add leadership and baseball IQ to the mix as well. That's just me. But for this I'll stick to five.

Arm strength (pitching)- MacLeoud and Bednar are talented but they're also essentially sophomores because of COVID despite their draft status. So sometimes they flash like Bednar did against Vanderbilt and sometimes they look like Bednar against Ole Miss. One thing about our starters is none of them are very efficient. We're only able to get 5-6 IP max because of that. That means we have to rely on the bullpen a lot- and fortunately we have a very good bullpen. But it also means we have to work those guys a lot. Against some of the better teams in the league we're going to have to use Sims twice in a weekend. We need to get Brandon Smith back. We need to keep developing Cerentola. And we need Stinnett and Preston Johnson to keep stepping up. Lemonis needs to have a quicker hook with Fristoe. He is a freshman and he is getting lit up the second-third time through because he does not have a third pitch to go to at this point. Foxhall and Lemonis need to stop being stubborn and "seeing what happens" and give him the hook after the first time through and go to Harding. I'm not just talking about today. It's a weekly theme. We also need someone like Cade Smith, Mikey Tepper, Stone Simmons or Spencer Price to step up an give us some innings here and there. How good this staff ultimately is will depend on 1. IF Smith comes back and 2. IF Cerentola can be used out of the bullpen as an option. We need to stop being cute on Sunday and use our big guns out of the pen sooner- ideally I would be fine with something like Harding starts and gives us 3, a healthy Smith gives us 2, Preston Johnson/Stinnett/Chase Patrick piece together innings 6-7, and then use Sims for 8-9. We need to maximize our talent and stop sitting on our ass waiting to see if a guy can work out of every jam.

Power- Hot take- we're going to have at least four guys that have 10 or more home runs on this team this year and are going to end up hitting more home runs than Ole Miss this year. Our schedule has been top heavy this year and three of the four remaining SEC series are against teams that have pitching staffs in the bottom half of the SEC with South Carolina being the exception. Tanner, James, Allen, and Rowdey are all going to hit 10 or more- and if he can bust out of his slump maybe Hancock as well. If I'm wrong I'm wrong- but I'll be pretty close one way or the other.

Average- Along those lines for the year our offense will finish in the top half of the SEC in average for the same reasons. One thing that will help is if we stop being so pull heavy- looking at you Josh Hatcher. Our hitters have GOT TO start looking to hit gap to gap more. Our approach is BAD at times. Some of that is some guys being inexperienced. But it needs to start to improve. The good news is we have beaten some really good pitchers this year- Madden from Texas, Hill from LSU, Hoglund from Ole Miss, and Leiter from Vanderbilt. We've gotten shut down some too. That happens against really good pitchers. We need to find a way to sit Hatcher without sacrificing defense. Which leads me too...

Defense- We HAVE TO get better here. We're so sloppy at times. Except for Logan Tanner who is a freak and has the run game shut down. It's past time to move Tanner Allen back to first and play Cumbest in RF. This maximizes our defense while also adding some offense because despite the fact that Cumbest having zero summer ball experience he's still better than Hatcher. Now that school is out this needs to be a MAJOR point of emphasis. Kam James needs to take at least 200 ground balls a day now that class is out. Get Ron Polk back out there and have the team go over his playbook defensive fundamentals AGAIN. Like every day. A lot of times when we have lost it's because we kick the ball around like the Bad News Bears with special guest Chuck Knoblauch.

Speed- We're among the best in the league at stealing bases so no complaints here. Forsyth needs to get better at bunting though. That needs to be part of his game and no reason for him to not be decent at it.

Leadership- Lemonis has to do a little bit better job of managing this team if he is going to beat elite teams. That means find a solution to a guy like Josh Hatcher struggling. That means not sitting around like a bump on a log while Fristoe is getting lit up the second or third time through the order again. That means finding ways to use Sims twice in a weekend against some of the better teams in the league like he did against Ole Miss.

This was a pretty critical review. But I think this team is clearly third in the SEC and we'll find out in a couple of weeks if we're third or fourth after the South Carolina series. For us to get to the top we have to get a little bit better- and I think we will in the future. What we are seeing right now is kind of a byproduct of having essentially four coaching changes in about five years. So it's a bit of a mess. But we're hardly bad. Overall we're pretty good in fact. But with some hard work and maybe a couple of tweaks and some more aggressive decision making this team can reach it's full potential. What I think will happen is we will improve on defense and our hitting will improve. Our pitching will be about the same. Lemonis will keep running Hatcher out there. As long as we take care of business the next few weeks we should be a national seed. I always like our odds in the postseason at Dudy-Noble. And I wish we had Landon Sims a couple of years ago against that ridiculous umpire in the CWS that squeezed us against Louisville. Anyway, overall I think we continue to improve and make a run and end up in Omaha again.

[The Federalist Engineer]

Good Analysis Todd:

(1) Fristoe can’t do 3 cycles of hitters. Trying to get three cycles is disrespectful to the opponent .
(2) Hatcher is not going to happen in 2021. He doesn’t look confident out there.
(3) I think I rather DH Kamren James and let Leggett play 3B, James is just though to watch defensively
(4) Cumbest playing more is just common sense, if Hatcher is the only 1B’man then sit Skinner
(5) Stinnetts is averaging 4 innings per month, thats brutal pitcher management. I wish Kumar and Nikhazy were being nursed like that.
(6) just me perhaps, I would take Freshman Kellum Clark hitting 230 if the next best option is a senior hitting 190.

[Cooterpoot]

(1) We suck at managing pitching.
(2) We rely too much on analytics. It's lazy coaching.
(3) Defense is bad. Especially 3B and CF.
(4) Some guys need to mature. They let things snowball on them if something goes bad.
(5) We've failed at recruiting when we have a 1B hitting below .200 and no one good enough with the bad to start over James at 3B.
(6) Just play Cumbest. Until he sucks, play him. This shit isn't that hard. But our coaches are making it hard.
(7) All that and we're still a top 10 team.

[BrunswickDawg]

Some good points Todd.

First - I get what you are saying about MacLeod and Bednar - without having gone thru the SEC gauntlet, they are still learning what it is like to pitch to SEC hitting. Not to mention what it is like to deal with SEC umps and their lack of consistency.
I think we are essentially seeing with them this year what last year in the SEC schedule would have looked like with them as Freshman (MacLeod was a RSF). If they come back next year, look out.

Agree completely about having 4 guys with 10 HR. But, you buried the lead on that headline. We haven't had a team with more than 2 guys hitting 10 or more HR since 1999 (Wiese 19; Knott -14; Wren -13); and haven't had 4 or more guys do it since 1998 (Knott -13; Wiese -14; Chapman -10; Freeman - 11; Lee - 19). That's a loooong time to be a school without much power. Yes, I know that is getting back to the Gorilla Ball days - but we have had a whole lot of seasons over the past 21 years where didn't have a single guy hit 10 HR. Hopefully it is a sign of things to come.

I'm not going to complain about how Lemonis has used Sims. The fact is that most weekends we haven't really needed him 2 times. A lot the people complaining about us not using him twice also complained when we used him Saturday "because it was a blow at the time". Well it wasn't - Johnson was done and we HAD to win that game regardless of score. Sims was there to shut them down and not let them get back in it. Most of our Friday games we haven't needed Sims. He has pitched a lot of Saturday's because of that and the fact those games end up being the series decider.

[WinningIsRelentless]

Managing pitchers when you only have 10 is tough managing a staff when you have the arms we have is even tougher.

[The Federalist Engineer]

(1) We suck at managing pitching.
(2) We rely too much on analytics. It's lazy coaching.
(3) Defense is bad. Especially 3B and CF.
(4) Some guys need to mature. They let things snowball on them if something goes bad.
(5) We've failed at recruiting when we have a 1B hitting below .200 and no one good enough with the bad to start over James at 3B.
(6) Just play Cumbest. Until he sucks, play him. This shit isn't that hard. But our coaches are making it hard.
(7) All that and we're still a top 10 team.

I don't think we failed at recruiting. I think Hatch needs to have his vision checked. We have seen awesome players have a bad year before, for many reasons.

(1) John Cohen in 1989 sucked, got right in 1990.
(2) Rob Hauswauld sadly went from an All SEC, All American, Triple Crown Candidate to early retirement due to a head injury.
(3) Tommy Raffo dropped off in 1990 because he got Mono before the season. From Golden Spikes numbers in 1989 to mere All SEC numbers in 1990.

This year, Alex Binelas of Lousiville was supposed to be an All American, he is only now getting to 250, was hitting 220. Jud Fabian, another AA candidate and consensus #1st Rounder is also struggling for average. Of course these guys are still hitting 10 and 13 Homeruns. Hatch appears to not hit the weights, he still resembles his freshman body. All three were big recruits, drafted out of HS, just different outcomes. We are unlucky that Kellum Clark came down with something before the season.

Still a Top-5 team

[Cooterpoot]

I don't think we failed at recruiting. I think Hatch needs to have his vision checked. We have seen awesome players have a bad year before, for many reasons.

(1) John Cohen in 1989 sucked, got right in 1990.
(2) Rob Hauswauld sadly went from an All SEC, All American, Triple Crown Candidate to early retirement due to a head injury.
(3) Tommy Raffo dropped off in 1990 because he got Mono before the season. From Golden Spikes numbers in 1989 to mere All SEC numbers in 1990.

This year, Alex Binelas of Lousiville was supposed to be an All American, he is only now getting to 250, was hitting 220. Jud Fabian, another AA candidate and consensus #1st Rounder is also struggling for average. Of course these guys are still hitting 10 and 13 Homeruns. Hatch appears to not hit the weights, he still resembles his freshman body. All three were big recruits, drafted out of HS, just different outcomes. We are unlucky that Kellum Clark came down with something before the season.

Still a Top-5 team

Hatch has never good. Otherwise, he'd have been an everyday starter before this year. His bat is terrible. His defense is barely average. We're short players. That's not hard to see. It's the difference between good and great. The bottom half of the lineup is pretty weak with the bat. We're still playing bad defenders to get a bat in the lineup or bad hitters for some defense. We need to recruit better.

[KOdawg1]

1. Rowdey - CF
2. Allen - 1B
3. James - LF
4. Hancock - DH
5. Tanner - C
6. Dubrule - 2B
7. Cumbest - RF
8. Leggett - 3B
9. Forsythe - SS

Landon Jordan leaving hurts.

I edited and swapped Kam and Hancock.

[The Federalist Engineer]

1. Rowdey - CF
2. Allen - 1B
3. James - DH
4. Hancock - LF
5. Tanner - C
6. Dubrule - 2B
7. Cumbest - RF
8. Leggett - 3B
9. Forsythe - SS

Landon Jordan leaving hurts

Hancock in LF? After watching him at 1B, I would be scared. My LF would be a Skinner/McDonald platoon.

[KOdawg1]

Hancock in LF? After watching him at 1B, I would be scared. My LF would be a Skinner/McDonald platoon.

And where would you put him? There's no situation that will be perfect. Otherwise, we would've already done it. You have to pick your poison. Hatcher's bat and James glove scares me more than Hancock (or maybe James) in LF

[Tbonewannabe]

Hatch has never good. Otherwise, he'd have been an everyday starter before this year. His bat is terrible. His defense is barely average. We're short players. That's not hard to see. It's the difference between good and great. The bottom half of the lineup is pretty weak with the bat. We're still playing bad defenders to get a bat in the lineup or bad hitters for some defense. We need to recruit better.

Hatcher was a .300 hitter as a Sophomore and the shortened 2020 season. He hit .259 as a freshman. It isn't like he has always been this bad.

I still think we should bench him though. You have to get Cumbest in the lineup somehow.

[WinningIsRelentless]

And where would you put him? There's no situation that will be perfect. Otherwise, we would've already done it. You have to pick your poison. Hatcher's bat and James glove scares me more than Hancock (or maybe James) in LF

James glove is better than Hatcher?s bat and Hancock?s glove. Period end of the story.

[KOdawg1]

James glove is better than Hatcher?s bat and Hancock?s glove. Period end of the story.
I disagree.

[basedog]

Cumbest should be playing ahead of Skinner, and Clark should be given a try at 1st base. Every team now knows how to pitch to James, breaking balls, same for Forsythe but he will get better in time. Hancock needs to get going, like i've said in another post, he is somewhat productive but he isn't just crushing the ball. I also would platoon 2nd base.

If I'm James, I would try to play in the outfield next year, he has a good arm and has some speed.

Let's win the series against the Aggies, one game at a time and quit thinking and talking about sweeps. Hell most everyone on ED including me was hoping not to be swept by "Vandy Boys".

[Commercecomet24]

Cumbest should be playing ahead of Skinner, and Clark should be given a try at 1st base. Every team now knows how to pitch to James, breaking balls, same for Forsythe but he will get better in time. Hancock needs to get going, like i've said in another post, he is somewhat productive but he isn't just crushing the ball. I also would platoon 2nd base.

If I'm James, I would try to play in the outfield next year, he has a good arm and has some speed.

Let's win the series against the Aggies, one game at a time and quit thinking and talking about sweeps. Hell most everyone on ED including me was hoping not to be swept by "Vandy Boys".

Good post. Kam is just not an infielder. He'll get moved to the outfield in mlb, has a good arm and great speed.

[basedog]

Good post. Kam is just not an infielder. He'll get moved to the outfield in mlb, has a good arm and great speed.

I ask someone IF they thought he could play in the outfield, they said he could. Much easier adjustment than playing the infield and not quiet the pressure. I'd insert Clark, if he is our future might as well put him in for a few series and let's see. I'm not sold on Skinner, he like 3 or 4 or or guys can't pick up on the breaking balls, Cumbest is as good of an outfielder Skinner. James has talent but he is being exposed with the breaking balls and his defense has really suffered. Imagine slumping at the plate and making critical errors at third?

Btw, I think Vandy is a little better than Arkansas, they have the advantage on the mound. I think us, Sc and Tn are the next best teams with Florida and Om being middle of pack.

[Commercecomet24]

I ask someone IF they thought he could play in the outfield, they said he could. Much easier adjustment than playing the infield and not quiet the pressure. I'd insert Clark, if he is our future might as well put him in for a few series and let's see. I'm not sold on Skinner, he like 3 or 4 or or guys can't pick up on the breaking balls, Cumbest is as good of an outfielder Skinner. James has talent but he is being exposed with the breaking balls and his defense has really suffered. Imagine slumping at the plate and making critical errors at third?

Btw, I think Vandy is a little better than Arkansas, they have the advantage on the mound. I think us, Sc and Tn are the next best teams with Florida and Om being middle of pack.

Yeah Kam had a really bad weekend, didn't hit and struck out to much, along with playing poor defense. If he's gonna make it I believe his best shot is in the outfield. We should give Clark a shot, Hatcher's just not giving us anything at the plate and his defense is average at best. I think Cumbest has earned a shot in the outfield as well. Skinner just can't hit a breaking ball yet and Cumbest is as good defensively, sure couldn't hurt to give him a chance out there. I agree with your rankings.

[basedog]

Yeah Kam had a really bad weekend, didn't hit and struck out to much, along with playing poor defense. If he's gonna make it I believe his best shot is in the outfield. We should give Clark a shot, Hatcher's just not giving us anything at the plate and his defense is average at best. I think Cumbest has earned a shot in the outfield as well. Skinner just can't hit a breaking ball yet and Cumbest is as good defensively, sure couldn't hurt to give him a chance out there. I agree with your rankings.

I sent you a PM also.

As far as pitching goes, Arkansas and Vandy are the two best hitting teams in the Sec, as far as Friday night, no matter who pitched for us we weren't gonna beat Rocker that night. I also believe we did the right thing bringing in Sims Saturday as "you play the win the game today" and worry about what to do the next day! And far as the Sunday game, it's pretty easy to second guess "take him out, leave him in" after the fact. It was our lack of clutch hitting early in the game with bases loaded twice as well as men in scoring position a few other time.

[Commercecomet24]

I sent you a PM also.

As far as pitching goes, Arkansas and Vandy are the two best hitting teams in the Sec, as far as Friday night, no matter who pitched for us we weren't gonna beat Rocker that night. I also believe we did the right thing bringing in Sims Saturday as "you play the win the game today" and worry about what to do the next day! And far as the Sunday game, it's pretty easy to second guess "take him out, leave him in" after the fact. It was our lack of clutch hitting early in the game with bases loaded twice as well as men in scoring position a few other time.

Agreed. Just like you said we could've blown that game yesterday wide open with a couple of hits. We had runners all over the place the first 3-4 innings and couldn't add on. And then add the fact our defense cost us a couple runs and there you go.

[CadaverDawg]

To me, the fix is pretty simple if you move TA back to 1B. Then you're able to get rid of Hatch's bat, while probably improving your outfield defense. James isn't great at 3B, but he's far from our biggest issue.

Rowdey CF
Allen 1B
James 3B
Hancock DH
Tanner C
Dubrule 2B
Mule RF
Skinner LF
Forsythe SS

Teach Forsythe and Skinner how to freaking bunt. Use Hatcher as a potential veteran pinch hitter for when they try to go RHP in the postseason if needed. And for God's sake, quit leaving pitchers in too long....you have a ton of capable arms, USE THEM!

[Todd4State]

Cumbest should be playing ahead of Skinner, and Clark should be given a try at 1st base. Every team now knows how to pitch to James, breaking balls, same for Forsythe but he will get better in time. Hancock needs to get going, like i've said in another post, he is somewhat productive but he isn't just crushing the ball. I also would platoon 2nd base.

If I'm James, I would try to play in the outfield next year, he has a good arm and has some speed.

Let's win the series against the Aggies, one game at a time and quit thinking and talking about sweeps. Hell most everyone on ED including me was hoping not to be swept by "Vandy Boys".


I sent you a PM also.

As far as pitching goes, Arkansas and Vandy are the two best hitting teams in the Sec, as far as Friday night, no matter who pitched for us we weren't gonna beat Rocker that night. I also believe we did the right thing bringing in Sims Saturday as "you play the win the game today" and worry about what to do the next day! And far as the Sunday game, it's pretty easy to second guess "take him out, leave him in" after the fact. It was our lack of clutch hitting early in the game with bases loaded twice as well as men in scoring position a few other time.

I know Kellum was sick early in the spring and that has delayed his development while he has gotten better. But Hatcher is struggling so badly I don't that Clark would really be any worse at this point- would likely be better and we would get him experience for next year.

I agree on Sims and Cumbest. I'm fine with Lemonis bringing in Sims when he did because we HAD TO make sure we won a game. When the postseason comes around I'm hopeful that we will see Sims more than once a weekend.

I think too many people are overvaluing Cumbest having to go play summer ball. Yes, summer ball is important to development. Cumbest can play summer ball in Mississippi and still be on the football team. Or he could play an abbreviated summer in another league. He has options and can still do both. Oh yeah- he's getting AB's with us too.

[CadaverDawg]

Yeah Kam had a really bad weekend, didn't hit and struck out to much, along with playing poor defense. If he's gonna make it I believe his best shot is in the outfield. We should give Clark a shot, Hatcher's just not giving us anything at the plate and his defense is average at best. I think Cumbest has earned a shot in the outfield as well. Skinner just can't hit a breaking ball yet and Cumbest is as good defensively, sure couldn't hurt to give him a chance out there. I agree with your rankings.

I posted mine before reading yours and basedog's posts...really good points you two made. I actually really like the idea of Clark at 1B if you guys think he is capable (I don't know much about him)....that allows you to keep Skinner on the bench as a pinch runner in key games down the stretch, and you have Mule's bat in LF. That actually sounds better than my previous post bc I like this lineup better...

Rowdey CF
Allen RF
James 3B (outfield next year, not sure if that's a mid year move)
Hancock DH
Tanner C
Mule LF
Dubrule 2B
Clark 1B
Forsythe SS

Thoughts?

Does Clark bat Left or Right?

[Todd4State]

To me, the fix is pretty simple if you move TA back to 1B. Then you're able to get rid of Hatch's bat, while probably improving your outfield defense. James isn't great at 3B, but he's far from our biggest issue.

Rowdey CF
Allen 1B
James 3B
Hancock DH
Tanner C
Dubrule 2B
Mule RF
Skinner LF
Forsythe SS

Teach Forsythe and Skinner how to freaking bunt. Use Hatcher as a potential veteran pinch hitter for when they try to go RHP in the postseason if needed. And for God's sake, quit leaving pitchers in too long....you have a ton of capable arms, USE THEM!

About James's defense- that field at Vandy is tough to play on as an infielder. Not an excuse- but it is an adjustment for any infielder.

[CadaverDawg]

About James's defense- that field at Vandy is tough to play on as an infielder. Not an excuse- but it is an adjustment for any infielder.

Yeah, I actually thought he made a hell of a play on that short hop...he just should have taken his time, set his feet, and thrown the guy out instead of trying to look like Ozzie Smith and throwing off balance. That error stung

[Todd4State]

Yeah, I actually thought he made a hell of a play on that short hop...he just should have taken his time, set his feet, and thrown the guy out instead of trying to look like Ozzie Smith and throwing off balance. That error stung

Agree. And that's what that turf can do- the ball gets there so quickly it can cause guys to speed things up when they don't have to because in their mind the turf makes the runners faster too.

[StarkVegasSteve]

At this point I think you have to give Kellum Clark a look at 1B and this weekend is a good time to do that. I'd roll with both Cumbest and Clark on Friday night and see how they look and based off that figure out what we're going to do the rest of the weekend. No team in the SEC is a bad team, but A&M is a definite step down in competition compared to OM and Vandy so this weekend would be a good time to tinker with the lineup a bit.

[basedog]

I posted mine before reading yours and basedog's posts...really good points you two made. I actually really like the idea of Clark at 1B if you guys think he is capable (I don't know much about him)....that allows you to keep Skinner on the bench as a pinch runner in key games down the stretch, and you have Mule's bat in LF. That actually sounds better than my previous post bc I like this lineup better...

Rowdey CF
Allen RF
James 3B (outfield next year, not sure if that's a mid year move)
Hancock DH
Tanner C
Mule LF
Dubrule 2B
Clark 1B
Forsythe SS

Thoughts?

Does Clark bat Left or Right?

Clark is a lefty, he has really good power, he just needs to play. I might would even swap Mule and bat him third and move James 4th followed by what you have in order.

[CadaverDawg]

Clark is a lefty, he has really good power, he just needs to play. I might would even swap Mule and bat him third and move James 4th followed by what you have in order.

I like it

[basedog]

I like it

Well we are "ED wanna be coaches"* It's much less stressful and seems pretty easy!

[Activated Alpha]

Well y?all remember the last time we benched Hatcher. I agree that he needs to sit so do whatever we need to counter the Hatcher jinx. Pluck ye chickens, walk around every time we are up to bat, any other weird superstitions ye got...

[The Federalist Engineer]

Do we think that Lemonis learned his lesson with Fristoe this year?

After the Vandy kid torqued Fristoe for a triple, he allows a struggling Fristoe to face the same kid and get torqued for a 3-run homer. That sequence basically costed the game.

He acted like Fristoe was the last D1 pitcher on the staff and the next available arm was Brant Blaylock. I thought we had 7 guys that could throw 95+. Did I just imagine that?

That was the perfect moment for Patrick.

Also, how can Cerantola go from the 3rd best picther on the staff to completely unusable. Seems you could get 3 outs per week with Cerantola. Just mix up the arms.

Yeah, we are a Top-5 club, yet we all still bitch about everything.

[Homedawg]

Do we think that Lemonis learned his lesson with Fristoe this year?

After the Vandy kid torqued Fristoe for a triple, he allows a struggling Fristoe to face the same kid and get torqued for a 3-run homer. That sequence basically costed the game.

He acted like Fristoe was the last D1 pitcher on the staff and the next available arm was Brant Blaylock. I thought we had 7 guys that could throw 95+. Did I just imagine that?

That was the perfect moment for Patrick.

Also, how can Cerantola go from the 3rd best picther on the staff to completely unusable. Seems you could get 3 outs per week with Cerantola. Just mix up the arms.

Yeah, we are a Top-5 club, yet we all still bitch about everything.

Cause he had the first best stuff. We had to give him a shot. He was NEVER the third best pitcher.

[Coach34]

Some good points here.

A) We dont manage our pitching very well at all. We are reactive instead of proactive. With all these arms- it's easier to make a change when trouble brews instead of rolling with the guy on the mound because the pen is bare. I knew when we left Fristoe in Sunday a HR was about to happen. You could see it coming. Fristoe is not ready for a 3rd time thru the line-up yet. His change is not ready. I was fine with bringing Sims on to make sure we close the game out. Harding is a 1 time thru guy. Stop trying to steal outs with him a 2nd time thru- it's not gonna happen against good teams. Good point by Todd about Mac and Bednar being inconsistent because of missing last season for the most part.

B) Playing Hatcher everyday at this point is ridiculous. He leads the country in groundouts to 2B. Cumbest gets on base 3 straight times Sunday and we pull him. It's getting comical at this point we dont play him but play Hatcher and Skinner. James is struggling with the slider and makes some wtf's in the field- but the talent is there. He'll get better.

C) Vandy and UPig are just a little better than everybody else. UPig has more pop but Vandy has the deeper staff. In the Omaha wind tunnel- pitching has the advantage. Just dont see anybody taking 2/3 from them there. We can secure a national seed and play at home until Omaha- and that would be a damn good season.

[CadaverDawg]

Well we are "ED wanna be coaches"* It's much less stressful and seems pretty easy!

We're pretty legit if you ask me lol

[confucius say]

We supposedly have the deepest pen in America. If that's true (not sure it is), then use it.

What I saw this weekend is we didn't trust our own minus sims to hold a 6 run lead with 8 outs to go. Then on Sunday we didn't trust our own minus sims to get fristoe when it was obvious he was done (two runs in the fourth then a single a 4 pitch walk in the fifth).

[Lumpy Chucklelips]

Todd, or anyone else. What is the pod seeding they are talking about for regionals? What is it and how does that work?

[HoopsDawg]

I posted mine before reading yours and basedog's posts...really good points you two made. I actually really like the idea of Clark at 1B if you guys think he is capable (I don't know much about him)....that allows you to keep Skinner on the bench as a pinch runner in key games down the stretch, and you have Mule's bat in LF. That actually sounds better than my previous post bc I like this lineup better...

Rowdey CF
Allen RF
James 3B (outfield next year, not sure if that's a mid year move)
Hancock DH
Tanner C
Mule LF
Dubrule 2B
Clark 1B
Forsythe SS

Thoughts?

Does Clark bat Left or Right?

That's my lineup but I might switch Mule and Dubrule.

Clark is a good fielder. He has played a lot of corner infield in his life. If he can hit .200, you have to roll with him. I would bet money that if he played 1st base the rest of the year, he would hit at least 4 homeruns.

[CadaverDawg]

That's my lineup but I might switch Mule and Dubrule.

Clark is a good fielder. He has played a lot of corner infield in his life. If he can hit .200, you have to roll with him. I would bet money that if he played 1st base the rest of the year, he would hit at least 4 homeruns.

Yeah, I think you're right...switch Mule and Dubrule

[R2Dawg]

Do we think that Lemonis learned his lesson with Fristoe this year?

After the Vandy kid torqued Fristoe for a triple, he allows a struggling Fristoe to face the same kid and get torqued for a 3-run homer. That sequence basically costed the game.

He acted like Fristoe was the last D1 pitcher on the staff and the next available arm was Brant Blaylock. I thought we had 7 guys that could throw 95+. Did I just imagine that?

That was the perfect moment for Patrick.

Also, how can Cerantola go from the 3rd best picther on the staff to completely unusable. Seems you could get 3 outs per week with Cerantola. Just mix up the arms.

Yeah, we are a Top-5 club, yet we all still bitch about everything.

I am with you on Cerantola. He was not 3rd, there were preseason baseball experts saying he was a top 5 pick and even one said he could be #1. He has some stuff, how can we not pitch him an inning and see every week? Pull him if he struggles, we are wasting his time here.

[HoopsDawg]

I am with you on Cerantola. He was not 3rd, there were preseason baseball experts saying he was a top 5 pick and even one said he could be #1. He has some stuff, how can we not pitch him an inning and see every week? Pull him if he struggles, we are wasting his time here.

I would like to see him pitch an inning this weekend out of the bullpen if we can grab a 4+ run lead. 3 or less and I'm not so sure.

[Homedawg]

I am with you on Cerantola. He was not 3rd, there were preseason baseball experts saying he was a top 5 pick and even one said he could be #1. He has some stuff, how can we not pitch him an inning and see every week? Pull him if he struggles, we are wasting his time here.

Because we are trying to win. He had his shots. We can give him some work way up or way down. None of those excised this weekend. Do you all have amnesia? We didn't waste anything. And yes he might be a big league number one. He might not make it out of single a. We tried. Hate it didn't work. If he continues to show progress maybe he gets a shot in a game that we are losing down a couple or sec tourney. Otherwise he shouldn't be in there. Period.

[Really Clark?]

Hatcher was a .300 hitter as a Sophomore and the shortened 2020 season. He hit .259 as a freshman. It isn't like he has always been this bad.

I still think we should bench him though. You have to get Cumbest in the lineup somehow.

Obviously he is beyond just in a slump so what I?m about to state is not all of his problem. His averages the last two years, especially last season, have also benefitted from a high BABIP. With enough balls in play over time you get a better picture of a players actual hit ability. Some of the issues that are glaring now were always there. Lot of ground balls and roll over ground balls, very very low walk rate, low OBP, made contact on questionable pitches, etc. Honestly all things being equal he is more of a .250-.275 hitter and .300 on a good year. This year has some regression to his mean as it relates to his hit ability. Not to this disappointing degree obviously, which is where the rest of the problems of from an extended very bad slump come into play for a hitter.

[Tbonewannabe]

Obviously he is beyond just in a slump so what I?m about to state is not all of his problem. His averages the last two years, especially last season, have also benefitted from a high BABIP. With enough balls in play over time you get a better picture of a players actual hit ability. Some of the issues that are glaring now were always there. Lot of ground balls and roll over ground balls, very very low walk rate, low OBP, made contact on questionable pitches, etc. Honestly all things being equal he is more of a .250-.275 hitter and .300 on a good year. This year has some regression to his mean as it relates to his hit ability. Not to this disappointing degree obviously, which is where the rest of the problems of from an extended very bad slump come into play for a hitter.

Whatever the metrics say, he has been a .280-.320 hitter for his entire career coming into this year. Maybe he has been lucky until this slump but that is being lucky for a long time. Saying all that, he has to sit for us to go very far in the post season. I am not sure he can get his head right in enough time to help us much this year.

[HoopsDawg]

Whatever the metrics say, he has been a .280-.320 hitter for his entire career coming into this year.

What is his career conference only average?

[Coach34]

What is his career conference only average?

Hatcher in the SEC-

2018- 16/84 .190
2019- 17/65 .262
2021- 10/63. 159

Career SEC Avg- 43/212 .203 career with only 9 of those being extra base hits

[The Federalist Engineer]

Hatcher in the SEC-

2018- 16/84 .190
2019- 17/65 .262
2021- 10/63. 159

Career SEC Avg- 43/212 .203 career with only 9 of those being extra base hits

Welp, that tells me Clark should start playing ASAP. Maybe mix it up with Pimentel and Hatcher so that you get a healthy competition.

If nothing else Pimentel should get 1 AB per game to try and swat one. Like Ole Miss uses the two fat kids, Baker and Van Cleve. Hatch can be Pimentel's pinch runner if he gets a hit.

[Tbonewannabe]

Hatcher in the SEC-

2018- 16/84 .190
2019- 17/65 .262
2021- 10/63. 159

Career SEC Avg- 43/212 .203 career with only 9 of those being extra base hits

Damn that is bad. I definitely didn't figure he was that bad in SEC only stats. He must be hitting over 0.400 in nonconference. Just another reason to mix it up and get Cumbest in the lineup somehow. At this point do you try Clark? I know getting sick set him back but surely he can at least luck into one occasionally.

[Commercecomet24]

Hatcher in the SEC-

2018- 16/84 .190
2019- 17/65 .262
2021- 10/63. 159

Career SEC Avg- 43/212 .203 career with only 9 of those being extra base hits

Well that kind of puts the nail in the coffin. That shows he can't hit quality pitching. His hits and average have come from feasting on non conference pitching.

[Commercecomet24]

It's time to give Clark or anyone else a shot. Those SEC stats are mind numbingly bad and he is also an average defensive player at best.

[Todd4State]

It's time to give Clark or anyone else a shot. Those SEC stats are mind numbingly bad and he is also an average defensive player at best.

I'll be honest- I forgot about Pimentel. Whatever we do probably won't be worse.

[TNDawg35]

Why is Clark not getting more at bats? The ones I have seen he seemed patient and got some walks. Hell he has hit one bomb hasn’t he?

[basedog]

Hatcher in the SEC-

2018- 16/84 .190
2019- 17/65 .262
2021- 10/63. 159

Career SEC Avg- 43/212 .203 career with only 9 of those being extra base hits

Whoa.....Oh My!!!!! That is worse than one could have imagined, thanks for the info.

[Tbonewannabe]

Why is Clark not getting more at bats? The ones I have seen he seemed patient and got some walks. Hell he has hit one bomb hasn’t he?

I think he has 1 hit that was a bomb to RF. Otherwise he has struck out a bunch along with walks although he only has 10 or so ABs. The thing with him is there is a lot of potential. As a freshman, he should only get better and has power that Hatcher doesn't. Pimental also has power so if nothing else maybe you get an occasional dinger that you don't get from Hatcher.

[CadaverDawg]

Hatcher in the SEC-

2018- 16/84 .190
2019- 17/65 .262
2021- 10/63. 159

Career SEC Avg- 43/212 .203 career with only 9 of those being extra base hits

https://media3.giphy.com/media/XuLXZa0PJNiV2/200.gif

[CadaverDawg]

I'll be honest- I forgot about Pimentel. Whatever we do probably won't be worse.

I forgot Pimentel too...why have we not given him a chance over Hatcher??

[Commercecomet24]

I forgot Pimentel too...why have we not given him a chance over Hatcher??

Yeah I mean you look at Hatcher this year and then his total sec stats there's no way pimentel could be any worse. It's time we give Clark or pimentel a shot.

ETA and Clark would be a big upgrade defensively over Hatcher

[CadaverDawg]

Yeah I mean you look at Hatcher this year and then his total sec stats there's no way pimentel could be any worse. It's time we give Clark or pimentel a shot.

100%

Maybe make Clark the new starter and allow Pimentel some DH opportunities if Hammer doesn't start hammering more

[maroonmania]

added a few notes for those that might not remember:


Hatcher in the SEC-

2018- 16/84 .190 (began the year as a starter at 1st but eventually had to be replaced by TA at first base)
2019- 17/65 .262 (never started regularly the whole year so likely helped that pitchers really didn't have a lot on him in the scouting information)
2020- shortened season I think was his best average but never faced SEC pitching
2021- 10/63. 159 (nuff said -- he is a 4th year JR and really no better hitter than when he had to be replaced as a FR)

Career SEC Avg- 43/212 .203 career with only 9 of those being extra base hits

[Percho]

James glove is better than Hatcher?s bat and Hancock?s glove. Period end of the story.

I think James glove is ok he just hurries his throws.

[HoopsDawg]

100%

Maybe make Clark the new starter and allow Pimentel some DH opportunities if Hammer doesn't start hammering more

I wouldn't go Pimentel. I don't think he's the answer at this point and any AB's he got would take away Clark's development.

[HoopsDawg]

added a few notes for those that might not remember:

I hate to pile on, but his problems are compounded by the fact that he doesn't walk either.

[HoopsDawg]

The lineup should be:

1. Rowdey
2. TA
3. Kam
4. Luke
5. LT
6. Dubrule
7. Cumbest
8. Clark
9. Forsythe

I would probably play Hatcher vs Lefties, because Hatcher does put the ball in play and Kellum would probably struggle against Quality Lefties.

I would play Skinner some over Cumbest but it wouldn't be a straight platoon meaning i would still let Cumbest start against Righties unless he really starts to struggle.

[Coach34]

I hate to pile on, but his problems are compounded by the fact that he doesn't walk either.

He swung at the 1st pitch 3 of 4 AB's on Sunday and at least half for the weekend- probably 2/3's

[HoopsDawg]

Sunday pitching:

1. Fristoe: Limit to 1 time thru
2. Harding: 1 time thru
3. Tullar 1 inning
4. Stinnett 1 inning
5. Sims 1 inning if available.

You have to have adjustability of course, but this would be my plan. If Cerantola comes along, you can throw him into the mix for a one inning stint. Maybe the 7th inning.

[HoopsDawg]

He swung at the 1st pitch 3 of 4 AB's on Sunday and at least half for the weekend- probably 2/3's

And most teams shift him up the middle and pull side to take away the groundball hits he may have gotten in the past.

[Coach34]

The lineup should be:

1. Rowdey
2. TA
3. Kam
4. Luke
5. LT
6. Dubrule
7. Cumbest
8. Clark
9. Forsythe

I would probably play Hatcher vs Lefties, because Hatcher does put the ball in play and Kellum would probably struggle against Quality Lefties.

I would play Skinner some over Cumbest but it wouldn't be a straight platoon meaning i would still let Cumbest start against Righties unless he really starts to struggle.

I would platoon Debrule/Leggett.
I would play Cumbest for the next 2 weeks and let's see what happens. He is hitting .385 and its like the coaching staff is pretending it isnt happening.
Skinner is getting exposed on breaking balls. he has got to keep working.
Hatcher gets up there and flails away- we cant keep that up at this point. He leads the country in groundouts to 2B
I played 1st base for 20 years from tball to semi-pro. It's not that damn hard. People just have to put the work in.
You either force Clark in and let him get his lumps the next month- or you stay the course with Hatcher. We are at the point of no return here soon.

[basedog]

I would platoon Debrule/Leggett.
I would play Cumbest for the next 2 weeks and let's see what happens. He is hitting .385 and its like the coaching staff is pretending it isnt happening.
Skinner is getting exposed on breaking balls. he has got to keep working.
Hatcher gets up there and flails away- we cant keep that up at this point. He leads the country in groundouts to 2B
I played 1st base for 20 years from tball to semi-pro. It's not that damn hard. People just have to put the work in.
You either force Clark in and let him get his lumps the next month- or you stay the course with Hatcher. We are at the point of no return here soon.

Yes to it all!

[The Federalist Engineer]

The lineup should be:

1. Rowdey
2. TA
3. Kam
4. Luke
5. LT
6. Dubrule
7. Cumbest
8. Clark
9. Forsythe

I would probably play Hatcher vs Lefties, because Hatcher does put the ball in play and Kellum would probably struggle against Quality Lefties.

I would play Skinner some over Cumbest but it wouldn't be a straight platoon meaning i would still let Cumbest start against Righties unless he really starts to struggle.

Why does Luke get a pass? He ain?t hitting either. Batting cleanup?

We need to stop wasting the DH spot. Leggett and McDonald are looking more lively with the bat.

Yeah, Luke had a hot start and could get hot again

Funny Hach puts the ball in play... ground balls to the 2nd baseman are double plays. Rather Pimentel swing for the homerun and strikeout than a DP.

[HoopsDawg]

Why does Luke get a pass? He ain?t hitting either. Batting cleanup?

We need to stop wasting the DH spot. Leggett and McDonald are looking more lively with the bat.

Yeah, Luke had a hot start and could get hot again

Funny Hach puts the ball in play... ground balls to the 2nd baseman are double plays. Rather Pimentel swing for the homerun and strikeout than a DP.

Luke gets a pass b/c he has quality AB's. He has a .400 OB %. He is 2nd on the team in HR's with 7. He produces runs. And he rarely strikes out. And he is by far our best option at the DH spot. Hopefully, that answers your question.

Pimentel isn't the answer. I don't know what to tell you. Clark is better than Pimentel already and he's only a freshman so why would you even consider Pimentel over Clark.

[TNDawg35]

Rowdey
TA
Kam
LT
Hancock
Cumbest
Clark
Debrule
Forsythe

And I tell Forsythe, your glove is good son, but you better stop watching fastballs down the gut and swing the bat. Clark is a freshman.

What about moving Kam to 1b. Catching the grounder is not the problem. It’s the throwing part. Put Clark at 3b. I think Kam would do good at 1b. He has the frame and length and the glove for it. Just work with him some. We have three teams that aren’t that great to end the season in Mizz, Bama, and A&M.

[Really Clark?]

Why does Luke get a pass? He ain?t hitting either. Batting cleanup?

We need to stop wasting the DH spot. Leggett and McDonald are looking more lively with the bat.

Yeah, Luke had a hot start and could get hot again

Funny Hach puts the ball in play... ground balls to the 2nd baseman are double plays. Rather Pimentel swing for the homerun and strikeout than a DP.

I’m not pulling him from the line-up as he is one of the top players we have in QAB’s. Hit .272 this weekend, knocked in a run every game, walked 2 times with only 2 K’s this weekend, has lowest K total of any starter, and third highest OBP of any regular hitter. He is the one player that you can count on to give you the most good AB’s even when he is off. Now as a clean-up guy? I can see the question but our 1-4 hitters are our best hitters and he is one of the 4. Unless, we pull Hatch and someone takes off, I don’t see who you put there? Flip him and James? I don’t like that as much as keeping the switch, left, right left combo. No way I mess with Tanner’s spot right now. Leave him be in the 2 hole.

[CadaverDawg]

Truth is we're missing that one true lead off guy. I was hoping it would be Dubrule, then once he wasn't producing I thought maybe Skinner...nope. Imagine if Dubrule could be that guy...suddenly you have Rowdey in the 2 hole, TA at 3, Kam clean up, and the bottom gets fairly strong with Tanner, Hancock, Cumbest then Clark and Forsythe. I hate to screw with the top of the order since they are producing right now...but now that Rowdey is hitting, it may not be the worst time to try a guy like Dubrule back at the 1 spot because he'd get a ton of good pitches ahead of Rowdey and TA, and Dubrule has actually started to hit a little lately. Just a thought, and probably not a very good one. Just trying to think of a way to put Rowdey and TA in more RBI spots

[KOdawg1]

Truth is we're missing that one true lead off guy. I was hoping it would be Dubrule, then once he wasn't producing I thought maybe Skinner...nope. Imagine if Dubrule could be that guy...suddenly you have Rowdey in the 2 hole, TA at 3, Kam clean up, and the bottom gets fairly strong with Tanner, Hancock, Cumbest then Clark and Forsythe. I hate to screw with the top of the order since they are producing right now...but now that Rowdey is hitting, it may not be the worst time to try a guy like Dubrule back at the 1 spot because he'd get a ton of good pitches ahead of Rowdey and TA, and Dubrule has actually started to hit a little lately. Just a thought, and probably not a very good one. Just trying to think of a way to put Rowdey and TA in more RBI spots

I completely agree. Dubrule would be a great fit in the leadoff spot if he keeps going, but I don't think there's a chance they move Rowdey with him going again. Knowing our luck, it would send him into a mega-slump.

[TNDawg35]

Truth is we're missing that one true lead off guy. I was hoping it would be Dubrule, then once he wasn't producing I thought maybe Skinner...nope. Imagine if Dubrule could be that guy...suddenly you have Rowdey in the 2 hole, TA at 3, Kam clean up, and the bottom gets fairly strong with Tanner, Hancock, Cumbest then Clark and Forsythe. I hate to screw with the top of the order since they are producing right now...but now that Rowdey is hitting, it may not be the worst time to try a guy like Dubrule back at the 1 spot because he'd get a ton of good pitches ahead of Rowdey and TA, and Dubrule has actually started to hit a little lately. Just a thought, and probably not a very good one. Just trying to think of a way to put Rowdey and TA in more RBI spots

I would actually agree with this. Try DeBrule back up there. If it don’t work, he’ll put Hancock. He doesn’t K. He puts balls in play and works counts. He walks a good bit.

Hancock
Rowdy
TA
Kam
LT
Cumbest
Clark
Debrule
Forsythe

[CadaverDawg]

I completely agree. Dubrule would be a great fit in the leadoff spot if he keeps going, but I don't think there's a chance they move Rowdey with him going again. Knowing our luck, it would send him into a mega-slump.

Very true. Lemonis has some tough calls to make in my opinion....

Play to win it all, which requires bold lineup changes and potential ridicule if they fail.

Or

Ride it as is, while knowing it's not a recipe for Omaha success...but hope not enough people realize moves need to be made in the lineup.

I'm betting he sticks with the safe option, and that's a shame.

[HoopsDawg]

Are the calls that tough? Just play Cumbest and Clark. I wouldn't mess with the top 5 in the order.

[CadaverDawg]

I would actually agree with this. Try DeBrule back up there. If it don’t work, he’ll put Hancock. He doesn’t K. He puts balls in play and works counts. He walks a good bit.

Hancock
Rowdy
TA
Kam
LT
Cumbest
Clark
Debrule
Forsythe

I definitely think Hancock has everything needed except speed...and I'd hate to slow down Rowdey and TA with Hammer in front of them. But I like the outside the box thought for sure. If you try anyone else at #1 I'd probably go...

Dubrule
Rowdey
TA
Kam
Hancock
Tanner
Cumbest
Clark
Forsythe

It's more traditional, and we'd definitely be relying on Dubrule's 10 year college career experience to come in to play down the stretch...but I don't hate it.

[CadaverDawg]

Are the calls that tough? Just play Cumbest and Clark. I wouldn't mess with the top 5 in the order.

That's the most logical thing to do, but at this point do we really think he's going to bench Hatcher? I hope so, but he hasn't yet.

[Homedawg]

I completely agree. Dubrule would be a great fit in the leadoff spot if he keeps going, but I don't think there's a chance they move Rowdey with him going again. Knowing our luck, it would send him into a mega-slump.

Keep beating the drum... haha. He's where he needs to be.

[Homedawg]

Are the calls that tough? Just play Cumbest and Clark. I wouldn't mess with the top 5 in the order.

Cumbest wouldn't be that tough of a call. Playing Clark would. In a big way.

[Homedawg]

Why have dubrule hit leadoff over Jordan? From any statistical metric that's wrong.

[HoopsDawg]

Why have dubrule hit leadoff over Jordan? From any statistical metric that's wrong.

Crazy talk. Our top 5 is correct.

[HoopsDawg]

Cumbest wouldn't be that tough of a call. Playing Clark would. In a big way.

Not really. The bar isn't that high. We know Clark is talented. At least play him vs RHP

[Coach34]

Debrule is a classic 2-hole guy. He needed time to adjust to SEC pitching. He seems to have adjusted.

Rowdey
Debrule/Leggett
Allen
James
Hancock
Tanner
Cumbest
Anybody but Hatcher
Forsythe

[HoopsDawg]

Debrule is a classic 2-hole guy. He needed time to adjust to SEC pitching. He seems to have adjusted.

Rowdey
Debrule/Leggett
Allen
James
Hancock
Tanner
Cumbest
Anybody but Hatcher
Forsythe

You just moved our current most dangerous hitter to the 6 hole. And if you are going to platoon Leggett, you can't have him in the 2 hole.

Also, this isn't 1995. Analytics have shown that you should put your top hitter in the 2 hole.

This team has some issues. 1-5 isn't one of them.

[Homedawg]

Legget is a k machine against good pitching. I like the top 5. Not perfect but it's what we have. And the left right spilt keeps teams from using a guy for two people out of the pen. The rest is what it is. Timely hits some luck and good pitching can get us to Omaha....

[Coach34]

You just moved our current most dangerous hitter to the 6 hole. And if you are going to platoon Leggett, you can't have him in the 2 hole.

Also, this isn't 1995. Analytics have shown that you should put your top hitter in the 2 hole.

This team has some issues. 1-5 isn't one of them.

I dont care what year this is- with our line-up we need somebody in the 2-hole that can bunt so TA can drive some runs home. Leggett will be fine vs LHP's but unfortunately Lemon for some unknown reason has been batting Debrule vs LHP's and Leggett vs RHP's. It's like dude- wtf? Hatcher bats 6th or so and he strikes out at about the same rate with a much lower OBP. Hell- Vandy started 3 RHP's so Leggett wouldnt have even started this past weekend. Dont create problems that arent there.
Inserting Debrule into the 2-hole now that he has adjusted will do nothing but help this offense. Leggett's OBP is .429- he would be fine in the 2-hole vs LHP's.
Tanner has some pop but with the guys in front of him it's the right move. We are just moving Debrule into the 2-hole who has a higher OBP anyway. Better RBI chance for LoTan.

[Really Clark?]

Debrule is hitting .188 in SEC play with an OBP of .235. He had a nice weekend vs OM but 1-11 vs Vandy last weekend brought him back to where he has been all year. You can?t put that in your 2 hole.(Forsyth actually has better SEC AVG and OBP). Tanner Legget is striking out 35% of the time vs SEC pitching.

Hancock has played and started in every game and has 126 AB on the season. Tanner Allen actually missed a game and has 140 AB?s. Putting TA in the 2 hole is giving him more chances through the year to do damage. Our 2 best hitters are hitting 1-2 and with limited offense we have, this maximize their chances to score runs

[Commercecomet24]

This is one of the best threads of the year. Nothing like a great baseball discussion.

ETA Your #'s 1-3 hitters always get an extra at bat per game, so you've got to have the 3 best in those spots in the order particularly in 1 and 2.

[Coach34]

Debrule is hitting .188 in SEC play with an OBP of .235. He had a nice weekend vs OM but 1-11 vs Vandy last weekend brought him back to where he has been all year. You can?t put that in your 2 hole.(Forsyth actually has better SEC AVG and OBP). Tanner Legget is striking out 35% of the time vs SEC pitching.

Hancock has played and started in every game and has 126 AB on the season. Tanner Allen actually missed a game and has 140 AB?s. Putting TA in the 2 hole is giving him more chances through the year to do damage. Our 2 best hitters are hitting 1-2 and with limited offense we have, this maximize their chances to score runs

Soooooo you’re saying we are better off keeping him 6th in a major RBI slot instead of the 2 hole where he could bunt and help move runners? Ok.

[Really Clark?]

Soooooo you’re saying we are better off keeping him 6th in a major RBI slot instead of the 2 hole where he could bunt and help move runners? Ok.

I’m saying I’m keeping my best hitter in a spot that will give me a lot more opportunities for my best hitter to knock in and score runs vs a below .200 hitter who is also not getting on base. Your premise of bunting has 2 major flaws in this scenario. We don’t bunt runners over very often even at the bottom of the order. So why are you going to take away AB’s from TA on the off chance that coach might decided to bunt with Debrule maybe once during entire series on average, at most. The other flaw is, Rowdy is scoring without needing to bunt him over. 78% of the time that Rowdy gets on base, he scores. That is no where close to an issue. Our offense has a a lot of problems, tinkering to solve a problem that we actually DON’T have is way off base.

Honestly, I like Debrule and Forsythe better as a 9 hole guys with this team as long as this is the lineup coach keeps putting out there. As long as we keep playing Hatcher and Skinner, they have to be 7-8 in the line-up. So then for me, I play match-up. LH starters, Forsythe, RH starters, Debrule as 6th hole hitters. We shouldn’t be hitting either one at 6th but we should have made changes a month ago when most of us not named Rex realized Hatcher was on the verge of being beyond a slump. Just like he is now. Brad Cumbest would have at the very least been starting vs LHP for me for a while now. But doesn’t seem like coach is in agreement and may have better reasoning but that’s what I would have already done. If Clark was healthy enough I’d probably would have worked him in some more to see what he looks like vs SEC pitching.

[Really Clark?]

Soooooo you?re saying we are better off keeping him 6th in a major RBI slot instead of the 2 hole where he could bunt and help move runners? Ok.

I?m saying I?m keeping my best hitter in a spot that will give me a lot more opportunities for my best hitter to knock in and score runs vs a below .200 hitter who is also not getting on base. Your premise of bunting has 2 major flaws in this scenario. We don?t bunt runners over very often even at the bottom of the order. So why are you going to take away AB?s from TA on the off chance that coach might decided to bunt with Debrule maybe once during entire series on average, at most. The other flaw is, Rowdy is scoring without needing to bunt him over. 78% of the time that Rowdy gets on base, he scores. That is no where close to an issue. Our offense has a a lot of problems, tinkering to solve a problem that we actually DON?T have is way off base.

Honestly, I like Debrule and Forsythe better as a 9 hole guys with this team as long as this is the lineup coach keeps putting out there. As long as we keep playing Hatcher and Skinner, they have to be 7-8 in the line-up. So then for me, I play match-up. LH starters, Forsythe, RH starters, Debrule as 6th hole hitters. We shouldn?t be hitting either one at 6th but we should have made changes a month ago when most of us not named Rex realized Hatcher was on the verge of being beyond a slump. Just like he is now. Brad Cumbest would have at the very least been starting vs LHP for me for a while now. But doesn?t seem like coach is in agreement and may have better reasoning but that?s what I would have already done. If Clark was healthy enough I?d probably would have worked him in some more to see what he looks like vs SEC pitching.

[maroonmania]

You know looking at things from the macro level, I almost feel like we are a bit of a top 8 seed team with a little bit of smoke and mirrors. I hate saying that because I love when we have a team I have full confidence in (like 2019) but this year it just seems like we aren't totally solid in many areas. Our pitching obviously is the best part of this team, but while the starting pitching is very good its not always consistent every weekend and then our bullpen is a little up and down as well except for Sims who is absolutely dead solid seemingly every time he comes out. But looking at our lineup, outside of Rowdey and TA, who else can you really count on to be productive week in and week out? Seems every time we have a hitter that show signs of life we have 2 others that go in a slump. And our defense is certainly nothing to write home about. We've probably cost ourselves 2 or 3 ballgames because we can't make routine plays on the infield or catch routine popups or Rowdey is out there misjudging a ball out to CF. Heck, Sims has had to pitch around defensive miscues multiple times already this year at the end of games. I know every team has flaws, we just seem to have more than I would expect from a Top 8 ranked MSU baseball team. Is this team really capable of making a deep run in Omaha this year playing like we are currently playing? I tend to think not.

[HoopsDawg]

Soooooo you’re saying we are better off keeping him 6th in a major RBI slot instead of the 2 hole where he could bunt and help move runners? Ok.

We've bunted 6 times all year. LOL. Again this isn't 1995. Teams don't bunt with their 2 hole hitter.

People will distort reality to keep themselves from being right than they ever will to not admit they were wrong. It's amazing when presented with contrary evidence, posters/people just can't admit when they are wrong.

[KOdawg1]

Dubrule in the 2 hole would make sense if we bunted. But we don't. Lemonis is new school. I don't like him in the 6 hole though. If he continues to hit, you could put him at 9 so he can get on base for Rowdey and TA to drive him in.

I can be swayed on a lot, but one thing I'm adamant about is that we've got to try something else out at first. I don't care if it's Clark, TA, or Pimentel. There's unknown in those three but you know what you're getting from Hatcher, and it's virtually nothing, so it literally can't get worse as long as they can halfway play defense.

[Johnson85]

You know looking at things from the macro level, I almost feel like we are a bit of a top 8 seed team with a little bit of smoke and mirrors. I hate saying that because I love when we have a team I have full confidence in (like 2019) but this year it just seems like we aren't totally solid in many areas. Our pitching obviously is the best part of this team, but while the starting pitching is very good its not always consistent every weekend and then our bullpen is a little up and down as well except for Sims who is absolutely dead solid seemingly every time he comes out. But looking at our lineup, outside of Rowdey and TA, who else can you really count on to be productive week in and week out? Seems every time we have a hitter that show signs of life we have 2 others that go in a slump. And our defense is certainly nothing to write home about. We've probably cost ourselves 2 or 3 ballgames because we can't make routine plays on the infield or catch routine popups or Rowdey is out there misjudging a ball out to CF. Heck, Sims has had to pitch around defensive miscues multiple times already this year at the end of games. I know every team has flaws, we just seem to have more than I would expect from a Top 8 ranked MSU baseball team. Is this team really capable of making a deep run in Omaha this year playing like we are currently playing? I tend to think not.

^^^THIS^^^

We are obviously good, but when I look at the team as a whole and our stats, it makes me wonder how in the hell we are good. I think our pitching is better than our stats look because our starters have just had bad outings that make the averages not really reflective of how well they have pitched? AFter that? No clue.

[HoopsDawg]

You know looking at things from the macro level, I almost feel like we are a bit of a top 8 seed team with a little bit of smoke and mirrors. I hate saying that because I love when we have a team I have full confidence in (like 2019) but this year it just seems like we aren't totally solid in many areas. Our pitching obviously is the best part of this team, but while the starting pitching is very good its not always consistent every weekend and then our bullpen is a little up and down as well except for Sims who is absolutely dead solid seemingly every time he comes out. But looking at our lineup, outside of Rowdey and TA, who else can you really count on to be productive week in and week out? Seems every time we have a hitter that show signs of life we have 2 others that go in a slump. And our defense is certainly nothing to write home about. We've probably cost ourselves 2 or 3 ballgames because we can't make routine plays on the infield or catch routine popups or Rowdey is out there misjudging a ball out to CF. Heck, Sims has had to pitch around defensive miscues multiple times already this year at the end of games. I know every team has flaws, we just seem to have more than I would expect from a Top 8 ranked MSU baseball team. Is this team really capable of making a deep run in Omaha this year playing like we are currently playing? I tend to think not.

coming into the season, there was talk of Cerantola being a top 5 pick and the coaches were raving about his bullpens and scrimmages. as of today, he has been a non-factor. Then you had MacLeod coming off a 4-0 shortened season with a 0.86 ERA and projected as a 1st rounder. So the thought was that he was going to be a dominant SEC Friday night starter. That's hasn't been the case either. We lost Foscue and Westburg and really only added Dubrule and Skinner so the offense has been inconsistent at best, but we've found a way to score runs for the most part.

then we had the situation where James didn't work out at SS, Landon Jordan transferred, and Hatcher has struggled.

Bottom line, we have flaws, but so does everyone else not named Vandy or Arkansas. We are good enough to get to Omaha if the things fall right. And anything can happen in Omaha unless you play Vandy.

[basedog]

I do think our pitching will be somewhat better the rest of the way on our Sec schedule. S. Carolina looks like the best team and we play them on the road. Hitting should be a little better as well, but I got respond or answer how our defense will be going forward. Walks and defense make pitchers look worse.

[HoopsDawg]

Dubrule in the 2 hole would make sense if we bunted. But we don't. Lemonis is new school. I don't like him in the 6 hole though. If he continues to hit, you could put him at 9 so he can get on base for Rowdey and TA to drive him in.

I can be swayed on a lot, but one thing I'm adamant about is that we've got to try something else out at first. I don't care if it's Clark, TA, or Pimentel. There's unknown in those three but you know what you're getting from Hatcher, and it's virtually nothing, so it literally can't get worse as long as they can halfway play defense.

I'm with you on first base. In my mind there are 2 options: TA at first with Cumbest and Skinner in the corner outfield spots. Or Clark at first. That's it. Those are the only 2 options.

[Really Clark?]

Soooooo you?re saying we are better off keeping him 6th in a major RBI slot instead of the 2 hole where he could bunt and help move runners? Ok.

I?m saying I?m keeping my best hitter in a spot that will give me a lot more opportunities for my best hitter to knock in and score runs vs a below .200 hitter who is also not getting on base. Your premise of bunting has 2 major flaws in this scenario. We don?t bunt runners over very often even at the bottom of the order. So why are you going to take away AB?s from TA on the off chance that coach might decided to bunt with Debrule maybe once during entire series on average, at most. The other flaw is, Rowdy is scoring without needing to bunt him over. 78% of the time that Rowdy gets on base, he scores. That is no where close to an issue. Our offense has a a lot of problems, tinkering to solve a problem that we actually DON?T have is way off base.

Honestly, I like Debrule and Forsythe better as a 9 hole guys with this team as long as this is the lineup coach keeps putting out there. As long as we keep playing Hatcher and Skinner, they have to be 7-8 in the line-up. So then for me, I play match-up. LH starters, Forsythe, RH starters, Debrule as 6th hole hitters. We shouldn?t be hitting either one at 6th but we should have made changes a month ago when most of us not named Rex realized Hatcher was on the verge of being beyond a slump. Just like he is now. Brad Cumbest would have at the very least been starting vs LHP for me for a while now. But doesn?t seem like coach is in agreement and may have better reasoning but that?s what I would have already done. If Clark was healthy enough I?d probably would have worked him in some more to see what he looks like vs SEC pitching.

[Coach34]

We've bunted 6 times all year. LOL. Again this isn't 1995. Teams don't bunt with their 2 hole hitter.

People will distort reality to keep themselves from being right than they ever will to not admit they were wrong. It's amazing when presented with contrary evidence, posters/people just can't admit when they are wrong.

We're 12th in average and 11th in runs scored in SEC games only. Maybe what we're doing isnt ****ing working that well? Looks like we need to lay down a few more bunts. (And I hate bunting- but sometimes you just have to suck it up and do it)

We're also 2nd in the SEC in grounding into double plays btw

[AlSwearengen]

If C. James doesn?t figure out how to hit a breaking ball when he knows its coming, he may as well come out of the lineup or at the very least move down to no. 9. He won?t see another fastball the rest of the year. How we have won as much as we have this year is amazing.

[The Federalist Engineer]

If C. James doesn?t figure out how to hit a breaking ball when he knows its coming, he may as well come out of the lineup or at the very least move down to no. 9. He won?t see another fastball the rest of the year. How we have won as much as we have this year is amazing.

Yeah, he got found out. From Alex Bergman 2.0 to Reid Humphries 2.0 in 10 days

Maybe Shotgun can tell us what Geautraux can do with the situation. Lots of guys struggle with Vandy though, maybe it’s about quality opposition and he did not become a terrible hitter overnight.

[Homedawg]

Yeah, he got found out. From Alex Bergman 2.0 to Reid Humphries 2.0 in 10 days

Maybe Shotgun can tell us what Geautraux can do with the situation. Lots of guys struggle with Vandy though, maybe it’s about quality opposition and he did not become a terrible hitter overnight.

He didn't just get found out. He's been thrown a huge percentage of breaking balls all year. Last week wasn't some newfound realization.like you said, it's just that vandy has the best two college rh starters w two legit breaking ball guys out of the pen. He's gonna keep getting seeing them and that's not new. He's ahead of hunter renfroe at the same stage (without the huge power) but he's not a nine hole guy like some have stated. That's absurd

[Todd4State]

He didn't just get found out. He's been thrown a huge percentage of breaking balls all year. Last week wasn't some newfound realization.like you said, it's just that vandy has the best two college rh starters w two legit breaking ball guys out of the pen. He's gonna keep getting seeing them and that's not new. He's ahead of hunter renfroe at the same stage (without the huge power) but he's not a nine hole guy like some have stated. That's absurd

I might get roasted but James reminds me a little bit of Rooker. Kind of raw, thin coming out of high school but with a lot of projectability. I have no idea if James is the student of the game that Rooker was late in his career here which is why he became a Triple Crown guy but I do think James will eventually be an All-SEC guy. And with guys like Kellum Clark, Cole Slater, Hunter Hines, and etc. coming in it makes sense to me to move him to the OF next year.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I might get roasted but James reminds me a little bit of Rooker. Kind of raw, thin coming out of high school but with a lot of projectability. I have no idea if James is the student of the game that Rooker was late in his career here which is why he became a Triple Crown guy but I do think James will eventually be an All-SEC guy. And with guys like Kellum Clark, Cole Slater, Hunter Hines, and etc. coming in it makes sense to me to move him to the OF next year.

I think people underestimate what Cann did for Rooker. Rooker had the potential in 2016, but what Cann did with him from November through the next year was absolutely remarkable. Completely changed his approach at the plate.

[Johnson85]

I think people underestimate what Cann did for Rooker. Rooker had the potential in 2016, but what Cann did with him from November through the next year was absolutely remarkable. Completely changed his approach at the plate.

I thought that was still geautraux or however you spell his name when Cann was here?

[CadaverDawg]

Lots of great points and discussion in this thread. I'm feeling pretty old for the first time, bc I see that my mind wants to go to the old school way of building a lineup, instead of the new school analytics way of building one. When these analytics guys show why we should have our best guys hitting top 3 it makes sense, so I'll admit my previous posts probably aren't the best lineup approaches....however, I wonder if you sprinkled in some of your lesser bats among the best throughout the lineup, if it would avoid having such a fall off towards the end, resulting in a better all around lineup of production? Can you analytics guys tell me if that makes any sense, or if I'm way off base with that thinking?

In other words, is it better to rely almost solely on the top of your order for runs, or would spreading the wealth help to take advantage of the other few hits per game by the lesser players, rather than them having nobody to drive them in around them, thus potentially resulting in a more productive overall lineup? Again, just curious.

[Commercecomet24]

Lots of great points and discussion in this thread. I'm feeling pretty old for the first time, bc I see that my mind wants to go to the old school way of building a lineup, instead of the new school analytics way of building one. When these analytics guys show why we should have our best guys hitting top 3 it makes sense, so I'll admit my previous posts probably aren't the best lineup approaches....however, I wonder if you sprinkled in some of your lesser bats among the best throughout the lineup, if it would avoid having such a fall off towards the end, resulting in a better all around lineup of production? Can you analytics guys tell me if that makes any sense, or if I'm way off base with that thinking?

In other words, is it better to rely almost solely on the top of your order for runs, or would spreading the wealth help to take advantage of the other few hits per game by the lesser players, rather than them having nobody to drive them in around them, thus potentially resulting in a more productive overall lineup? Again, just curious.

LOL, don't feel by yourself CD! I'm 56 and played or coached most of my life. I was a stat junkie even as kid pouring over the box scores in the paper and the stat book from my games. Back in the late 70's I started noticing the trend of those 1,2,3 hitters(but especially 1-2) always seemed to come up late in the game with the game on the line(doesn't matter what level of baseball, all the same). And those 3 hitters always seemed to get 1 extra ab a game and that adds up big time over the course of a season. So I decided whenever I started coaching I would construct my lineup that way and it worked really well. I'm not any kind of genius or anything, just a young kid who was a baseball stats junkie. Now I don't understand all these new fangled metrics and all and I still believe a coach should make decisions in game based on what is happening in that particular game. Stats are very valuable but shouldn't be used to make every decsion. JMO from an old baseball guy.

[Rex54]

It's pretty simple - give your best hitters the most at-bats.

Rowdey and Tanner Allen are the best two hitters. 1-2

Kam and Logan are the next best hitters - 3-4

Luke and Dubrule are the next best hitters - 5-6

Depending on matchups Hatcher/Cumbest/Skinner/Forsythe/Clark are the last best hitters 7-9

[KOdawg1]

Lots of great points and discussion in this thread. I'm feeling pretty old for the first time, bc I see that my mind wants to go to the old school way of building a lineup, instead of the new school analytics way of building one. When these analytics guys show why we should have our best guys hitting top 3 it makes sense, so I'll admit my previous posts probably aren't the best lineup approaches....however, I wonder if you sprinkled in some of your lesser bats among the best throughout the lineup, if it would avoid having such a fall off towards the end, resulting in a better all around lineup of production? Can you analytics guys tell me if that makes any sense, or if I'm way off base with that thinking?

In other words, is it better to rely almost solely on the top of your order for runs, or would spreading the wealth help to take advantage of the other few hits per game by the lesser players, rather than them having nobody to drive them in around them, thus potentially resulting in a more productive overall lineup? Again, just curious.

Lemonis is going to rely on the top of his order to score our runs for 2 reasons.

1. He plays for the "big inning" rather than trying to squeeze out a run here and there. If we have a big inning and put up 4 runs in the bottom of the first, then with our pitching staff, it'll be enough to beat most teams. Analytics point towards having more success going for the big inning.

2. The top of your order sees more at-bats, so you want those hitters to be your best.

[CadaverDawg]

It's pretty simple - give your best hitters the most at-bats.

Rowdey and Tanner Allen are the best two hitters. 1-2

Kam and Logan are the next best hitters - 3-4

Luke and Dubrule are the next best hitters - 5-6

Depending on matchups Hatcher/Cumbest/Skinner/Forsythe/Clark are the last best hitters 7-9

Doesn't seem that simple. If you have 2 good hitters and they both single every time they get up in a season, but there is nobody behind them to drive them in, you would score zero runs for the year. Obviously I'm kidding to an extent, but you get what I'm saying. Not saying any other way is the "right" way, bc your point makes sense...but if you only have one spot in your order that poses any threat, it would seem that would cause a different set of issues over the course of a game/season. I'd still lean the way you're saying, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it out. Different ways to skin a cat.

Another thing....I know a lot of people rip Corbin for putting a pitcher in his DH spot and then playing matchups when the spot comes up in the order, but why would you not do that? Seems like that way of thinking falls perfectly in line with the analytics way of managing the game/team.

[CadaverDawg]

LOL, don't feel by yourself CD! I'm 56 and played or coached most of my life. I was a stat junkie even as kid pouring over the box scores in the paper and the stat book from my games. Back in the late 70's I started noticing the trend of those 1,2,3 hitters(but especially 1-2) always seemed to come up late in the game with the game on the line(doesn't matter what level of baseball, all the same). And those 3 hitters always seemed to get 1 extra ab a game and that adds up big time over the course of a season. So I decided whenever I started coaching I would construct my lineup that way and it worked really well. I'm not any kind of genius or anything, just a young kid who was a baseball stats junkie. Now I don't understand all these new fangled metrics and all and I still believe a coach should make decisions in game based on what is happening in that particular game. Stats are very valuable but shouldn't be used to make every decsion. JMO from an old baseball guy.

Makes me feel better, ha. Good thinking too

[CadaverDawg]

Lemonis is going to rely on the top of his order to score our runs for 2 reasons.

1. He plays for the "big inning" rather than trying to squeeze out a run here and there. If we have a big inning and put up 4 runs in the bottom of the first, then with our pitching staff, it'll be enough to beat most teams. Analytics point towards having more success going for the big inning.

2. The top of your order sees more at-bats, so you want those hitters to be your best.

Makes sense. And I agree with it. Just playing devil's advocate and trying to understand the entire analytics picture I guess, and trying to add to discussion haha

[Really Clark?]

Good question Cadaver. The simple answer is if you have average to great bats through most of your order you can hide 1-2 weak hitters. Any more than that though you really have to stack your line up and play match up even more. Even with that, your 3 top hitters should still be 1-3 in the lineup unless none of them can give you a lead off type of production in the analytics. Doesn’t have to a base stealer but a smart base runner, someone who can work the counts, has splits that are somewhat even (it may have to be 2 guys with splits that are more lopsided) and get on base with walks as well as being a good hitter. Then you may have to find someone that is outside of your top 3 hitters to fill the lead off role.

But trying to hide Hatcher, Skinner, and Debrule, who are all also LH bats, man I think over the course of a season that will limit rallies and runs more than those dead innings that they incur. When you have a limited offense, stacking 1, 2, 3, works better throughout a season and gives you your best chance to optimize run production. The stronger your line up is overall, the more you can lean toward a more traditional line-up but I think the numbers are proving more and more that your 2 hole hitter is your 3 hole traditional hitter in today’s game. Freddie Freeman just won MVP hitting a lot from the 2 hole last year.

[Homedawg]

Doesn't seem that simple. If you have 2 good hitters and they both single every time they get up in a season, but there is nobody behind them to drive them in, you would score zero runs for the year. Obviously I'm kidding to an extent, but you get what I'm saying. Not saying any other way is the "right" way, bc your point makes sense...but if you only have one spot in your order that poses any threat, it would seem that would cause a different set of issues over the course of a game/season. I'd still lean the way you're saying, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it out. Different ways to skin a cat.

Another thing....I know a lot of people rip Corbin for putting a pitcher in his DH spot and then playing matchups when the spot comes up in the order, but why would you not do that? Seems like that way of thinking falls perfectly in line with the analytics way of managing the game/team.

It's no longer legal to do what corbin did w his dh....

[StarkVegasSteve]

I thought that was still geautraux or however you spell his name when Cann was here?

Jake didn't get here until 2018. It was Cann, Henderson, Mike Brown, and Will Coggin here in 2017.

[CadaverDawg]

Good question Cadaver. The simple answer is if you have average to great bats through most of your order you can hide 1-2 weak hitters. Any more than that though you really have to stack your line up and play match up even more. Even with that, your 3 top hitters should still be 1-3 in the lineup unless none of them can give you a lead off type of production in the analytics. Doesn’t have to a base stealer but a smart base runner, someone who can work the counts, has splits that are somewhat even (it may have to be 2 guys with splits that are more lopsided) and get on base with walks as well as being a good hitter. Then you may have to find someone that is outside of your top 3 hitters to fill the lead off role.

But trying to hide Hatcher, Skinner, and Debrule, who are all also LH bats, man I think over the course of a season that will limit rallies and runs more than those dead innings that they incur. When you have a limited offense, stacking 1, 2, 3, works better throughout a season and gives you your best chance to optimize run production. The stronger your line up is overall, the more you can lean toward a more traditional line-up but I think the numbers are proving more and more that your 2 hole hitter is your 3 hole traditional hitter in today’s game. Freddie Freeman just won MVP hitting a lot from the 2 hole last year.

Good breakdown. Makes sense

[CadaverDawg]

It's no longer legal to do what corbin did w his dh....

Oh really? Didn't know that

[Johnson85]

Doesn't seem that simple. If you have 2 good hitters and they both single every time they get up in a season, but there is nobody behind them to drive them in, you would score zero runs for the year. Obviously I'm kidding to an extent, but you get what I'm saying. Not saying any other way is the "right" way, bc your point makes sense...but if you only have one spot in your order that poses any threat, it would seem that would cause a different set of issues over the course of a game/season. I'd still lean the way you're saying, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it out. Different ways to skin a cat.

Another thing....I know a lot of people rip Corbin for putting a pitcher in his DH spot and then playing matchups when the spot comes up in the order, but why would you not do that? Seems like that way of thinking falls perfectly in line with the analytics way of managing the game/team.

This randomly came up in tball. We were playing a league that treated an inning as 5 runs or 3 outs, which ever comes first. Basically as long as you don't hit it directly to the pitcher, 2nd baseman, or 1st baseman, you are safe. Getting out of even one inning without letting the other team score five wins gave you a good chance of winning. Getting out of two innings without letting the other team score five wins guaranteed a win except for against maybe two teams, in which case it's maybe 50/50 whether you'd win with that. The other coaches basically did the line-up 1-9, best to worst hitters (really 1-11 or 1-12 depending on how many showed up because everybody just batted through, regardless of who was in the field), with some adjustment in the first 5 to match traditional roles. When I explained to them that it was stupid to put our three most likely outs together and virtually guarantee that we wouldn't max out one inning, it was deer in the headlights. Could not comprehend that when all twelve people were there, we had enough people guaranteed to get on base that we could space out our 3 bad hitters enough to guarantee three of them didn't come up in the same inning before we reached five runs.

And the opposite applies if you are not a good team. If you have too many outs in the lineup to space them out, you need to bunch your hits together to get people around the bases, and put them at the front of the lineup to maximize their number of at bats.

[Todd4State]

This randomly came up in tball. We were playing a league that treated an inning as 5 runs or 3 outs, which ever comes first. Basically as long as you don't hit it directly to the pitcher, 2nd baseman, or 1st baseman, you are safe. Getting out of even one inning without letting the other team score five wins gave you a good chance of winning. Getting out of two innings without letting the other team score five wins guaranteed a win except for against maybe two teams, in which case it's maybe 50/50 whether you'd win with that. The other coaches basically did the line-up 1-9, best to worst hitters (really 1-11 or 1-12 depending on how many showed up because everybody just batted through, regardless of who was in the field), with some adjustment in the first 5 to match traditional roles. When I explained to them that it was stupid to put our three most likely outs together and virtually guarantee that we wouldn't max out one inning, it was deer in the headlights. Could not comprehend that when all twelve people were there, we had enough people guaranteed to get on base that we could space out our 3 bad hitters enough to guarantee three of them didn't come up in the same inning before we reached five runs.

And the opposite applies if you are not a good team. If you have too many outs in the lineup to space them out, you need to bunch your hits together to get people around the bases, and put them at the front of the lineup to maximize their number of at bats.

I like this overall philosophy.