Off Topic Tuesday - Student Loan Forgiveness

[Lord McBuckethead]

This topic isn't to enter into a philosophical political discussion. I just want to have a civil discussion to discuss how this can, or should this be even done, and what benefits does it have either way. I am going to lay out an argument, and I hope these ideas can make a difference.

First, the idea of forgiving 50k worth of federal student loans is stupid. I graduated MSU with 22k worth of student loans, that could have easily been 60k if things didn't bounce my way. Working during school really wasn't an option. My major was too demanding week in and out. There may have been entire months that didn't really allow time to be spent out of the building. Either way, I signed the promisary note and agreed that the money borrowed for me to earn my degree was a fair trade.

Beyond the personable responsibility facet of the discussion, let's discuss the other side of the equation. Cost of an education. It has literally skyrocketed. Some of this is due to the federal guarantee to student loans. Some of it is to the funding cut from the state to lower state tax burden on both citizens and corporations. Some of it is because universities waste money hand over fist. Either way, tuition, books, room and board, etc have all just 6Xs the inflation rate over the past 20 years.

So what do we do? The discussion right now is to forgive 50k. I just do not see why people who chose to either work through college or simply did not go to college in the first place should have to take on this burden. It would free up tons of capital for the economy. But what happens next year, and the year after that. New student loans will just be created. Fix the cost of "state" universities and then each state is responsible for the cost of their "state's" higher education.

So, I see a possible compromise. I can agree, freeing up student loan money for the economy would be a gigantic consumer boost to the economy over the next 20 years. So how do we do it? Here is the compromise. Let the people who need the help with student loans be the ones to pay for it.

If you accept the one time 50k loan forgiveness, then you agree to pay an additional 2.5% federal and 0.5% state income tax for the rest of your life, or the amount forgiven is paid off. This way, it pays for the system. People who do not need the avalanche of payments removed do not have to pay for it, and it only accounts for 3% of your earnings year to year. Some people are probably paying 20% or more of their earnings after taxes on student loans. That is crazy. The numbers could be adjusted based on projections a little, but dang that makes a lot of sense to me versus just handing out 50k to every person with 50k worth of loans.

[starkvegasdawg]

If this happens what will be next on the slippery slope? $50k of mortgage forgiveness? If we pay off loans for people that couldn't afford college then why not pay off loans for people that bought too much house? There will rapidly come a point when the populace will be unable to pay all of the social programs enacted by the govt for no other reason than to buy votes. And let's not kid ourselves...all of this may be under the guise of helping people but it's nothing else than using my money to buy the vote of someone else.

[Homedawg]

The entire thing is bs. That's all.

[Lord McBuckethead]

It is a slippery slope, but unlike mortgages, student loans can never be expunged through bankruptcy and for good reason because everyone would rack up a ton of student loan debt and then declare bankruptcy the last 3 months of their senior year.

I still say, let the bargain be with those taking the money for forgiveness. 2.5% of their income for life is a fair trade. That way people can get out from the gigantic payments and yet pay for it themselves. No one is the wiser. Doesn't effect anyone not carrying student loan debt.

[Lord McBuckethead]

If I were a republican house or senate member, this is exactly my proposal. Everyone can agree that the mountain of debt is ridiculous for students. There are rules all over the place about which ones you can and cannot consolidate. Why can't we all get behind this, is beyond me. It offers a solution to the issue, pays for itself, and leaves everyone before this exactly as they are.

[BrunswickDawg]

The simplest way to help would be to convert the loans to no/low interest loans. Rates my daughter's Freshman year for Federal Student Loans was 7.5% - at $60k in loans over 20 years you end up paying $120K+ at $532 a month.
That's wrong for a government sponsored program. We give away billions in loans annually at no interest to business and industry, but charge students ridiculous rates to get an education.

[Big4Dawg]

https://youtu.be/jfIDh2yGn_g

I saw this a couple months ago and thought it was pretty interesting. Something needs to be done about the increased cost. Not sure what but something.

[Cooterpoot]

College costs have gotten out of control. But there's no such thing as free money. Kids shouldn't have to take out $50,000+ in loans to get a good education. Why should kids start life with that kind of debt? The whole damn system is screwed up.

[dawgoneyall]

An education that cost nothing for any and all will eventually be worth nothing.

[msstatelp1]

The US Government subsidizes nearly all industries to some degree to include oil, agriculture, automotive, and healthcare. If it can give free money to private companies and private individuals, then it should be able to help former students with their loans.

[Jacksondevildog]

They are going to check to see if you posted a black square on social media before doing away with your student loans.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

I wouldn?t be opposed to student loan forgiveness for high skilled, technical, engineering or medical occupations, but we shouldn?t be forgiving loans for liberal arts or interdisciplinary studies.

[Cooterpoot]

An education that cost nothing for any and all will eventually be worth nothing.

That's BS. There should be a system in place that puts kids in better situations from college to trade schools. The cost doesn't make the degree. That's silly as hell! You can go to a small, private, liberal arts school and get a worthless degree for 5 times the cost.

[Maroonthirteen]

What do "we" do? We make choices.

You can study, get a 23 on the ACT and go to Community College tuition free. If you commute, you can save there, owe nothing and be half way to a degree. Then on the weekend go
Party with your friends in Starkville and Oxford.

Or you choose to go to a 4 year, pay $20k a year for the same classes and dorm. Then party on the weekend in Starkville and Oxford.

[dawgoneyall]

That's BS. There should be a system in place that puts kids in better situations from college to trade schools. The cost doesn't make the degree. That's silly as hell! You can go to a small, private, liberal arts school and get a worthless degree for 5 times the cost.

You are wrong.

Making a degree void of personal responsibility will make degrees worth less and less.

Just human nature.

I think we agree but you can't just give college away....

[BeardoMSU]

As a college professor, I will readily admit that universities are doing kids no favors by encouraging/allowing them to bury themselves in debt majoring in BS degrees that won't get them a job capable of paying it back. Granted, I'm speaking from the STEM perspective, which certainly has issues worth addressing, but IMO, a lot of the ire can be directed to the Humanities...

The purpose of college should be attaining skills and training that help you become gainfully employed...there are way too many degree programs that don't even try to do that. I'm all for "the arts" and taking electives to broaden your horizons (I was an 8 year member of the FMB, after all), but if "using your art degree" is working as a cashier at Michael's, you probably should've thought about that before...

[Matt3467]

The problem began when education became a requirement to make a reasonable living. I remember my grandparents and beyond doing well for themselves and some didn't even finish HS. Much of what you learn in college is filler anyway to jack up the price. Apprenticeships and on the job training for specialties has always made the most sense to me.

[SapperDawg]

I would also add a component is service as a forgiveness pathway. I did it through the Army, but the military is not and should not be for everyone.

The USDA, Forest Service, Teach for America, Peace Corps, NOAA, Indian Health Service, and others should be outlets. Four years of service = loan/partial loan forgiveness.

[dawgoneyall]

As a college professor, I will readily admit that universities are doing kids no favors by encouraging/allowing them to bury themselves in debt majoring in BS degrees that won't get them a job capable of paying it back. Granted, I'm speaking from the STEM perspective, which certainly has issues worth addressing, but IMO, a lot of the ire can be directed to the Humanities...

The purpose of college should be attaining skills and training that help you become gainfully employed...there are way too many degree programs that don't even try to do that. I'm all for "the arts" and taking electives to broaden your horizons (I was an 8 year member of the FMB, after all), but if "using your art degree" is working as a cashier at Michael's, you probably should've thought about that before...


This..

Make college free for all and there will be an explosion of Liberal Art degrees.

[BeardoMSU]

I would also add a component is service as a forgiveness pathway. I did it through the Army, but the military is not and should not be for everyone.

The USDA, Forest Service, Teach for America, Peace Corps, NOAA, Indian Health Service, and others should be outlets. Four years of service = loan/partial loan forgiveness.

Education majors can do that as well by teaching in "low-income" areas for a certain amount of time.

[Dawgbite]

It’s buying future votes. It’s securing a future voting base for the Democratic Party. Just as granting citizenship to illegal immigrants, welfare benefits, and handing out half pint bottles in the parking lot of the voting precinct. If you borrow money, you owe it. Period.

[BeardoMSU]

It’s securing a future voting base for the Democratic Party.

FFS dude, this issue impacts everyone, conservative/liberal alike. Don't be obtuse for the sake of it.

[Dawgbite]

FFS dude, this issue impacts everyone, conservative/liberal alike. Don't be obtuse for the sake of it.

You’re right it impacts everyone. I paid my student loans, I paid my auto loans, and I paid my mortgage. Why the f*** should I have to pay for every Tom, Dick, and Sally who spends 5-6 years in college getting a useless degree that doesn’t lead to a career that justifies the expense of that degree. This is absolutely the stupidest thing I’ve seen in my lifetime from lawmakers.

[Saltydog]

Agreed. For people like me that worked their asses off and finally paid off their debt and did the right thing, what's in it for us? Not a damn thing.

[Dawgology]

They also have public service loan forgiveness right now. 10 years of payments while serving in a public capacity and they waive the remainder of your loan. I?m all for programs like this. It puts people with degrees into positions they need to be in. In the other hand, I think high schools need to stop pushing college as the next step. We need to re-emphasize trade schools, apprenticeships, and utility based jobs. Tried to find a welder lately? Good luck.

[Saltydog]

We're essentially reinforcing irresponsibility but hey, it's 2021 and it's what we've become. Taking out a loan is a choice and personal responsibility shouldn?t be supplanted by taxpayer bailouts. Canceling student loans means penalizing people like me for honoring my word and repaying the debt I chose to accept.

[Dawgology]

Furthermore, we don?t need to do away with college loans we need to RAISE the ****ing requirements to get into a college across the board. MINIMUM 21 on the ACT to get into college or some outstanding achievement. So many students crying about student loans right now barely made it into school with 16 on their ACT and they milk the system and loans for 5-6 years (barely passing classes) then they drop out or barely graduate and live off federal aid and cry about loan debt. Trust me...I?m an adjunct professor. I see it daily.

Loans for college should have a service rider attached. We pay for your education then you owe us X number of years in public service where we need you. After those then your loan is cleared or you can choose not to use the rider but you will owe us 100% repayment.

It won?t fix the issue now but it will prevent the issue in the future...which is why the government will never do it.

[The Federalist Engineer]

To Rescue this thread for sports-

This could nullify the Vanderbilt competitive advantage in baseball.

Brad Cumbest can now focus on his best sport without losing his ride

[robert]

I have a BA and a JD and never borrowed a dime. Jobs and the GI Bill made it possible. When I completed my education, I did not have $500. Twenty years ago, I retired at age 56.

[lastmajordog]

delete

[Leeshouldveflanked]

All the money people in my neck of the woods are Home Builders, Carpenters and Electricians... and the mortgage guy who has a general science degree... he loans the money to the Engineers and Doctors for the Home Builders, Carpenters and Electricians to build their houses. The Ole Miss liberal arts major works at the DG and the Kinesiology major teaches PE and drives the school bus. The guy that owns the scrap yard/wrecker service has more money than anyone... he flunked out of JC.

[PGHBulldogBG]

Furthermore, we don?t need to do away with college loans we need to RAISE the ****ing requirements to get into a college across the board. MINIMUM 21 on the ACT to get into college or some outstanding achievement. So many students crying about student loans right now barely made it into school with 16 on their ACT and they milk the system and loans for 5-6 years (barely passing classes) then they drop out or barely graduate and live off federal aid and cry about loan debt. Trust me...I?m an adjunct professor. I see it daily.

Loans for college should have a service rider attached. We pay for your education then you owe us X number of years in public service where we need you. After those then your loan is cleared or you can choose not to use the rider but you will owe us 100% repayment.

It won?t fix the issue now but it will prevent the issue in the future...which is why the government will never do it.

I have worked for a college for 12 years and one thing I can say is that what you did in high school or scored on standardized tests has nothing to do with how you will perform in college. I have students that were valedictorian and failed out and others that got a GED and graduated with a 4.0. Raising standards based on tests and high school grades are not the answer.

[Rex54]

Forgive the damn loans! Overhaul the entire higher education system - most people at universities have no need to be there.

Pay for it by cutting the outrageous military industrial complex and bringing the damn troops home.

It's not like you "mr taxpayer" are footing the bill anyway. The government doesn't need your taxes to fund itself. We have funny money, they just type some zeroes and poof it appears. Just erase $50,000 for people so they can live a meaningful debt free life.

[TUSK]

I'm watchin' this thread.... closely....

I like it,

[Cooterpoot]

Agreed. For people like me that worked their asses off and finally paid off their debt and did the right thing, what's in it for us? Not a damn thing.

Unless you go back to school or you have kids going to college. Or grandkids or great grand kids.
Or you could be happy that it would afford more opportunity to people that otherwise would struggle to make it happen. There's got to be a solution to the overall problem. Our system isn't good.

[Rex54]

I have a BA and a JD and never borrowed a dime. Jobs and the GI Bill made it possible. When I completed my education, I did not have $500. Twenty years ago, I retired at age 56.

Wow good for you. Your generation also grew up in a normal nation and economy and decided to piss it all away with mass importation of cheap labor, mass exportation of manufacturing, and mass wealth transfers to the global elite. Not to mention social rot. Thank you so much, boomer.

[MetEdDawg]

What do "we" do? We make choices.

You can study, get a 23 on the ACT and go to Community College tuition free. If you commute, you can save there, owe nothing and be half way to a degree. Then on the weekend go
Party with your friends in Starkville and Oxford.

Or you choose to go to a 4 year, pay $20k a year for the same classes and dorm. Then party on the weekend in Starkville and Oxford.

Here's the issue I have with this. If I want a certain degree or want to pursue something for my career, I can't just go to community college. Maybe for a year or two, but eventually, for certain degrees, I have to go to a 4 year university. So I could go to community college. But basically you're taking a bunch of people who want certain careers and saying because you can't afford to pay for the career you have to change what you want to do. I don't want to live in that kind of country.

So if you want to pursue something specific and you come from family that can't afford college, you go into debt to chase your dream. That's the only option. The problem with that is you basically are being forced to take on debt in order to pursue a career. Then you spend your entire career paying off that debt you were forced to take on. And the percentage amount you have to pay to get through college relative to entry level salaries is absurd now, especially for education.

College ha too many bells and whistles right now. It needs to be simplified and it shouldn't cost this much. In order to be where I'm at now, I had to get 3 degrees. I was a teacher, now an assistant principal. But I couldn't pay off my MSU loans. My wife was in vet school and I worked at Publix 20-30 hours a week while getting my Masters degree in education.

I'm not certain what the better way is, but I would think we could come up with something better than the US population subsidizing the government through absurd student loan interest rates just to pursue a career would be one we could tackle pretty easily.

[Mobile Bay]

I have a BA and a JD and never borrowed a dime. Jobs and the GI Bill made it possible. When I completed my education, I did not have $500. Twenty years ago, I retired at age 56.

Then you are completely and utterly out of touch with college costs today. $500 is probably what the calculus book costs now.

[BrunswickDawg]

I have a BA and a JD and never borrowed a dime. Jobs and the GI Bill made it possible. When I completed my education, I did not have $500. Twenty years ago, I retired at age 56.

So, the government paid for your education; and you served a commitment and got paid while doing it. The government gave you a head start - a debt free education, a job and an income, and work experience in a field. If you stayed in the military it would give you a career that allowed you a full retirement package at an early age.

Why should we not do that for teachers, healthcare workers, public servants, or hell just about anyone? I'd send my kid with her Met degree to work for 3 years on the cheap at NOAA or NWS, or the Peace Corps or where ever if it got them those benefits.

ETA: I'm not wanting to sound like I'm knocking the GI Bill or those who take advantage of it - it is a fantastic program that should be a model for more programs.

[OLJWales]

So, the government paid for your education; and you served a commitment and got paid while doing it. The government gave you a head start - a debt free education, a job and an income, and work experience in a field. If you stayed in the military it would give you a career that allowed you a full retirement package at an early age.

Why should we not do that for teachers, healthcare workers, public servants, or hell just about anyone? I'd send my kid with her Met degree to work for 3 years on the cheap at NOAA or NWS, or the Peace Corps or where ever if it got them those benefits.

ETA: I'm not wanting to sound like I'm knocking the GI Bill or those who take advantage of it - it is a fantastic program that should be a model for more programs.

The Greed of our current University System in this Country is Out of Control and Unchecked. The Power they have is an Evil Force in our Country. Elizabeth Warren made $400K in a year teaching part time for God's Sake.

[Rex54]

The Greed of our current University System in this Country is Out of Control and Unchecked. The Power they have is an Evil Force in our Country. Elizabeth Warren made $400K in a year teaching part time for God's Sake.

Imagine thinking it's the university system to blame and not the overall system as a whole... but that requires more deep thought than can go into a cartoon meme.

[OLJWales]

Imagine thinking it's the university system to blame and not the overall system as a whole... but that requires more deep thought than can go into a cartoon meme.

Will have to expel you, never had to do that before. Seek happiness for once and God Bless.

[Liverpooldawg]

It's simple, you borrow the money you pay it back. If you are stupid enough to borrow a bunch of money for a degree with little job prospects, that's on you, not me. I worked hard and payed every red cent I borrowed for school back, and I borrowed a lot for the time. If they get forgiven then I want MY money back too.

[Rex54]

It's simple, you borrow the money you pay it back. If you are stupid enough to borrow a bunch of money for a degree with little job prospects, that's on you, not me. I worked hard and payed every red cent I borrowed for school back, and I borrowed a lot for the time. If they get forgiven then I want MY money back too.

Example 56342 why conservatism is rightfully finding its way into the dustbin of history.

[Rex54]

The problem began when education became a requirement to make a reasonable living

Blame the rats who imported every third worlder they could while simultaneously exporting jobs around the globe. It's those same devils running our government and institutions that retarded conservatives want to give more tax cuts too and force underwater American kids to pay back with obscene interest. Capitalist loving conservatives I swear.....

[Liverpooldawg]

Example 56342 why conservatism is rightfully finding its way into the dustbin of history.

LOL, you probably believe that too. The world turns, always.

[baddmann]

College debt forgiveness is complete BS. If you make good decisions early on, you will not have to borrow any money.

It simply is not fair to reward bad decision making. I chose to sit at home some weekends and study while my friends were out partying. That got me a high enough ACT score to get free schooling. It paid off because I didn't have to borrow money. Now people want to pay off the debt of the folks that chose to party? WTF?

If you want to go to school free it's available. If you want to borrow money, then you have to pay it back. Understand that if you choose a degree that doesn't pay well, then it will take a while.

People need to understand that decisions have consequences. Make better decisions and you get better outcomes.