Thoughts on MBK Program

[StarkVegasSteve]

After settling down from last night I was finally able to get some thoughts on in my opinion what is currently going on with the program under Howland

1. As mad as we are, it's MILES better than it was in the mid 2010's. I know that I sometimes lose sight of this but where we are now and where we were under Rick Ray is a MASSIVE gap. That we can absolutely be thankful for.

2. We're not an elite blueblood program. We need to understand this. We're not on the level of Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Gonzaga, Arizona, etc. and we're probably not in that next level of Wisconsin, Michigan, Oregon, Florida St., Arkansas, or LSU. We're in whatever that 3rd tier is. Not saying that's a bad tier. I think we're in there with Alabama and Auburn. We sometimes, myself included, think we're historically better than we actually are. Now that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still want to compete for championships, but we need to have a realistic view of what success looks like.

3. Howland should get one more year with this team . I think this team has a lot of potential and I think Ben deserves to be the one to see it through. However, he needs to understand that it's Tourney or Bust next year. We will have far too much returning talent to not be a Top 25 team.

4. Ben, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY LEARN HOW TO ATTACK A 17 ZONE. We look like a freaking Jr. High team trying to attack a zone. It's ridiculous and maddening. We probably need to have Tolu in the mid post instead of Adu. But that's just my opinion. I mean this is year 6 and we still can't figure out a zone.

5. We need to start recruiting 3 and D guys. We need spot up shooters if we're ever going to take the next step. A Reginald Delk or a Riley Benock would benefit this team greatly.

6. We might need to look at putting Deivon at 1 and moving Molinar off the ball. I don't really see the benefit of Jalen Johnson starting, especially if he's not hitting shots. And I think Molinar would benefit going back off the ball again. I think it would take some pressure off him.

In closing, the next two weeks are going to be rough and I imagine that Saturday is going to be BAD. But hey, only one month til baseball.

[msstate7]

I wanna see d. Smith start soon. I like Johnson but he seems to have to a hard time getting open or us finding him one.

[Extendedcab]

I just do not understand how a team can be so Jekyll and Hyde, so good one game and so terrible the next. It seems to me that pride in ones self not to mention the team ought to level the highs and lows so we can be a more consistent team. This is maddening as other posters have said.

[Commercecomet24]

I just do not understand how a team can be so Jekyll and Hyde, so good one game and so terrible the next. It seems to me that pride in ones self not to mention the team ought to level the highs and lows so we can be a more consistent team. This is maddening as other posters have said.

Yeah from Saturday to last night looked like 2 completely different teams, but that's been the story of Howlands tenure, no consistency.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Yeah from Saturday to last night looked like 2 completely different teams, but that's been the story of Howlands tenure, no consistency.

We really didn't play all that well Saturday once they jumped in the zone. I just don't understand our inability to attack it. I can guarantee you that's most of what we'll see on Saturday.

[Todd4State]

This is sad but my main reasoning for keeping Howland another year is we are young and I don't trust Cohen with the next hire.

I'd rather keep Howland with his faults and try to develop Molinar, Smith, Stewart, and Javian rather than hire a coach that is their friend who does something that doesn't fit their skill set.

[msstate7]

This is sad but my main reasoning for keeping Howland another year is we are young and I don't trust Cohen with the next hire.

I'd rather keep Howland with his faults and try to develop Molinar, Smith, Stewart, and Javian rather than hire a coach that is their friend who does something that doesn't fit their skill set.

Johnson said it best on sps... stick with howland keeping us respectable for a few more years, and he'll most likely retire. Hiring his replacement would be much easier in that situation.

[BrunswickDawg]

Since the Williams era, we typically built toward having a team of JR/SRs that had come in as a group, work together, and had 2 solid seasons (meaning making the NCAAs). We would then drop off to NITish level for a couple of years while the next core group developed. The exception to that is '02-'05 when we got damn lucky with Lawrence Roberts and Shane Power transferred in and picked up where Bowers and Zimmerman left off giving us 4 years in a row of great ball.

There is a reason we were picked 12th in the SEC this year - and we are seeing it on the floor. We are young and inexperienced - but have a core that is talented enough that they could exceed expectations.

And keep this in mind - after year 6, Richard Williams was 85-87 with an SEC title and a 1 and done NCAA; Ben Howland is 107-73 a 1 and done NCAA appearance (would have been 2 sans COVID). And yes, I equate the state of the program where each of them took over as being pretty much equal. But, Howland has us back to where we were under Williams or Stansbury. We were patient with those 2 coaches, why not let Howland take this group through the next 3 years?

[StarkVegasSteve]

Since the Williams era, we typically built toward having a team of JR/SRs that had come in as a group, work together, and had 2 solid seasons (meaning making the NCAAs). We would then drop off to NITish level for a couple of years while the next core group developed. The exception to that is '02-'05 when we got damn lucky with Lawrence Roberts and Shane Power transferred in and picked up where Bowers and Zimmerman left off giving us 4 years in a row of great ball.

There is a reason we were picked 12th in the SEC this year - and we are seeing it on the floor. We are young and inexperienced - but have a core that is talented enough that they could exceed expectations.

And keep this in mind - after year 6, Richard Williams was 85-87 with an SEC title and a 1 and done NCAA; Ben Howland is 107-73 a 1 and done NCAA appearance (would have been 2 sans COVID). And yes, I equate the state of the program where each of them took over as being pretty much equal. But, Howland has us back to where we were under Williams or Stansbury. We were patient with those 2 coaches, why not let Howland take this group through the next 3 years?

Because like I mentioned, some in the fan base have an inflated expectation of what our program is.

[PGHBulldogBG]

Since the Williams era, we typically built toward having a team of JR/SRs that had come in as a group, work together, and had 2 solid seasons (meaning making the NCAAs). We would then drop off to NITish level for a couple of years while the next core group developed. The exception to that is '02-'05 when we got damn lucky with Lawrence Roberts and Shane Power transferred in and picked up where Bowers and Zimmerman left off giving us 4 years in a row of great ball.

There is a reason we were picked 12th in the SEC this year - and we are seeing it on the floor. We are young and inexperienced - but have a core that is talented enough that they could exceed expectations.

And keep this in mind - after year 6, Richard Williams was 85-87 with an SEC title and a 1 and done NCAA; Ben Howland is 107-73 a 1 and done NCAA appearance (would have been 2 sans COVID). And yes, I equate the state of the program where each of them took over as being pretty much equal. But, Howland has us back to where we were under Williams or Stansbury. We were patient with those 2 coaches, why not let Howland take this group through the next 3 years?

I agree with most of this, especially because I think it would be difficult to find a solid coach to come here after firing Howland based on bringing us back from nothing, but we weren?t making the NCAA tournament last year. We would?ve had to win the SEC tournament and that was a small chance considering how Auburn turned it on at the end

[Cooterpoot]

Do we want to commit to winning in basketball? The answer is, unfortunately, no. We'll continue losing to OM and playing in the NIT.

[Todd4State]

Johnson said it best on sps... stick with howland keeping us respectable for a few more years, and he'll most likely retire. Hiring his replacement would be much easier in that situation.

I totally agree with that. And given the make up of the roster I wouldn't be surprised if this group is his last hurrah. Given what we know about Cohen and his hires at this point I'm more willing to stay with Howland and his known faults in the hopes that we are good the next two years with a veteran team rather than blow everything up and completely rebuild with some coach that does something fancy and has to run everyone off to get his players in to make his whatever the complete opposite of Howland system is work.

Basically I'm gambling on 2-3 potentially solid seasons rather than have to endure an almost guaranteed really long rebuild given Cohen's track record.

[Todd4State]

Do we want to commit to winning in basketball? The answer is, unfortunately, no. We'll continue losing to OM and playing in the NIT.

Does being an Adidas school hurt us too? I mean- Jordan is with Nike.

[wrapit]

Regarding the zone ... first football and the rush 3 drop 8; now basketball with the 3-2 Zone. Certainly hope the 5-3 zone defense in baseball doesn't give the diamong dawgs fits.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I totally agree with that. And given the make up of the roster I wouldn't be surprised if this group is his last hurrah. Given what we know about Cohen and his hires at this point I'm more willing to stay with Howland and his known faults in the hopes that we are good the next two years with a veteran team rather than blow everything up and completely rebuild with some coach that does something fancy and has to run everyone off to get his players in to make his whatever the complete opposite of Howland system is work.

Basically I'm gambling on 2-3 potentially solid seasons rather than have to endure an almost guaranteed really long rebuild given Cohen's track record.

If we were to cut bait with Howland we'd be looking at a minimum of a 3 year rebuild with a GREAT hire. And Cohen hasn't shown the ability to make that outside of baseball. Now some would bring up that Nate Oats has Bama rolling in Year 2 but there's no similarities to the two situations. Avery Johnson already had most of these guys recruited and Oats has just given them free reign to shoot it. We don't have the horses to be able to run something like that if we were to bring in say, Dan D'Antoni or Darian DeVries.

[ArrowDawg]

After settling down from last night I was finally able to get some thoughts on in my opinion what is currently going on with the program under Howland

1. As mad as we are, it's MILES better than it was in the mid 2010's. I know that I sometimes lose sight of this but where we are now and where we were under Rick Ray is a MASSIVE gap. That we can absolutely be thankful for.

2. We're not an elite blueblood program. We need to understand this. We're not on the level of Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Gonzaga, Arizona, etc. and we're probably not in that next level of Wisconsin, Michigan, Oregon, Florida St., Arkansas, or LSU. We're in whatever that 3rd tier is. Not saying that's a bad tier. I think we're in there with Alabama and Auburn. We sometimes, myself included, think we're historically better than we actually are. Now that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still want to compete for championships, but we need to have a realistic view of what success looks like.

3. Howland should get one more year with this team . I think this team has a lot of potential and I think Ben deserves to be the one to see it through. However, he needs to understand that it's Tourney or Bust next year. We will have far too much returning talent to not be a Top 25 team.

4. Ben, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY LEARN HOW TO ATTACK A 17 ZONE. We look like a freaking Jr. High team trying to attack a zone. It's ridiculous and maddening. We probably need to have Tolu in the mid post instead of Adu. But that's just my opinion. I mean this is year 6 and we still can't figure out a zone.

5. We need to start recruiting 3 and D guys. We need spot up shooters if we're ever going to take the next step. A Reginald Delk or a Riley Benock would benefit this team greatly.

6. We might need to look at putting Deivon at 1 and moving Molinar off the ball. I don't really see the benefit of Jalen Johnson starting, especially if he's not hitting shots. And I think Molinar would benefit going back off the ball again. I think it would take some pressure off him.

In closing, the next two weeks are going to be rough and I imagine that Saturday is going to be BAD. But hey, only one month til baseball.

I think a lot of our fans would be okay with being "3rd tier" if we were fun to watch. We rarely are. That's why the program has lost so many fans, not the record.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I think a lot of our fans would be okay with being "3rd tier" if we were fun to watch. We rarely are. That's why the program has lost so many fans, not the record.

Ok so I'll pose this question to you because I do actually agree with your point. But would you rather be a fun team and lose 91-87 or have not so pretty of a team but win 58-54.

[Extendedcab]

I think the question is rhetorical because if we're winning, the bitching would be a lot less on this board.

[msstate7]

I think the question is rhetorical because if we're winning, the bitching would be a lot less on this board.

We are winning. We're 6th in the sec in conference wins the last 3+ seasons. That's not bad. We were tied for 5th yesterday with Florida, but they passed us last night

[Cooterpoot]

We are winning. We're 6th in the sec in conference wins the last 3+ seasons. That's not bad. We were tied for 5th yesterday with Florida, but they passed us last night

I think we can be better. But we won't try.

[msstate7]

I think we can be better. But we won't try.

Maybe we could. We could be worse too.

I think we have a really good year next season as these guys get some more experience.

[Cowbell]

Maybe we could. We could be worse too.

I think we have a really good year next season as these guys get some more experience.

I will never understand why you give so much more room for error with our basketball coaching than you do with our football coaching.

[Todd4State]

Maybe we could. We could be worse too.

I think we have a really good year next season as these guys get some more experience.

I think the odds of us making a worse hire are better than making a good one. By a good margin.

[Cowbell]

I think the odds of COHEN making a worse hire are better than making a good one. By a good margin.

FIFY

[msstate7]

I will never understand why you give so much more room for error with our basketball coaching than you do with our football coaching.

If we were 6th in the sec in football wins over the last 4 seasons, I would fight anyone who called for us replacing our coach. We've been far more successful in basketball lately while really pouring no resources into the sport.

[Cowbell]

If we were 6th in the sec in football wins over the last 4 seasons, I would fight anyone who called for us replacing our coach. We've been far more successful in basketball lately while really pouring no resources into the sport.

That's a pisspoor argument considering our conference is the standard in football and mediocre in basketball.

[msstate7]

That's a pisspoor argument considering our conference is the standard in football and mediocre in basketball.

It's our conference... that's who we play.

I looked though... we're tied for 9th in sec wins the last 4 seasons in football with tenn at 14. We've only got 6 of those the last 2 seasons though.

BTW, didn't tv last night say sec has more 1st round nba picks of any conference lately? Can't remember his time frame. This conference has gotten much better.

ETA... if you look at all time ncaa bids of the current conference teams, we're 10th in births. It isn't like we have some storied record in basketball

[Cowbell]

It's our conference... that's who we play.

I looked though... we're tied for 9th in sec wins the last 4 seasons in football with tenn at 14. We've only got 6 of those the last 2 seasons though.

BTW, didn't tv last night say sec has more 1st round nba picks of any conference lately? Can't remember his time frame. This conference has gotten much better.

Yeah draft picks doesn't reflect getting better... note our team last year....

[msstate7]

Yeah draft picks doesn't reflect getting better... note our team last year....

We finished 4th in our conference. That's first bye we've had in over a decade. And none of our picks were 1st rounders, so we didn't contribute to that stat at all

[Bothrops]

Unless we hire Richard Williams again, we aren't satisfying fans in MBK. Any other coach would leave at first opportunity, which would likely happen after year two, provided we look motivated and well coached. At least we can maintain mediocre status with Howland.

[msstate7]

Instead of firing howland, we should raise his coaching budget. Find a way to get butts in seats next season. Get creative... offer big perks if your seats are used every game or whatever. Offer something to the students that attend 80% of games or something. Put in some resources.

[BrunswickDawg]

Do we want to commit to winning in basketball? The answer is, unfortunately, no. We'll continue losing to OM and playing in the NIT.

107-73 in 5 1/2 seasons (one of which was below .500) is winning, and winning at a rate higher than all but 1 coach since integration. I look at our basketball team in much of the same vein as football - we are a developmental program that will have it's ups and downs. More than anything we need stability at the coaching level in order to build a culture and continuity. If the coach is winning, then I'm not going to look to fire them unless there are circumstances that warrant it (like a rotten culture , see Moorhead, Joseph).
I want to see what Howland can do with these guys. They are young, seem to be coachable, and seem to be MSU kids (unlike Newman, Peters, and even Q - who were all here for an NBA payday).

[thf24]

Deivon needs to start. Iverson's assist numbers say he's practically playing from the 2 already; we need to get some more distribution on the floor. I'm no coach and nothing against Matthews, but it seems pretty hard to justify that we're not better going Deivon/Iverson/DJ at this point.

[Cooterpoot]

107-73 in 5 1/2 seasons (one of which was below .500) is winning, and winning at a rate higher than all but 1 coach since integration. I look at our basketball team in much of the same vein as football - we are a developmental program that will have it's ups and downs. More than anything we need stability at the coaching level in order to build a culture and continuity. If the coach is winning, then I'm not going to look to fire them unless there are circumstances that warrant it (like a rotten culture , see Moorhead, Joseph).
I want to see what Howland can do with these guys. They are young, seem to be coachable, and seem to be MSU kids (unlike Newman, Peters, and even Q - who were all here for an NBA payday).

I can't disagree with this take enough. There's absolutely no comparison to football and basketball. Also don't think a coach staying for a period of time builds anything but complacency unless it's a Saban type coach. Winning in basketball means making the tournament regularly. We can do it if we want to put what's required into it. But we won't. Which is why a large number of fans just don't care and will settle for this.

[Bothrops]

Instead of firing howland, we should raise his coaching budget. Find a way to get butts in seats next season. Get creative... offer big perks if your seats are used every game or whatever. Offer something to the students that attend 80% of games or something. Put in some resources.

Howland won't get fired.

[BuckyIsAB****]

Apathy has already set in for some and it is the kiss of death. It is in dangerous territory

[BuckyIsAB****]

If we were 6th in the sec in football wins over the last 4 seasons, I would fight anyone who called for us replacing our coach. We've been far more successful in basketball lately while really pouring no resources into the sport.

11 straight bowl trips and plenty of wins vs OM is better than our last 11 years of basketball.

They had me close to coming back bc word was they played hard and together then last night happens. Same deal for about 4 years now. The last game I watched and really cared about was that SEC tourney game vs Tennessee and that admiral kid.

[msstate7]

11 straight bowl trips and plenty of wins vs OM is better than our last 11 years of basketball.

They had me close to coming back bc word was they played hard and together then last night happens. Same deal for about 4 years now. The last game I watched and really cared about was that SEC tourney game vs Tennessee and that admiral kid.

We'd have 3 straight postseason appearances if not for covid. NIT is same as some of the low level bowls we've made.

As far as calling for football firing... I did on Moorhead. I've beeched about our offense under leach, but I'm all for giving him his shot. I haven't called for him to be fired, yet, and I probably won't till year 3. Hopefully he answers the bell.

[thf24]

I can't disagree with this take enough. There's absolutely no comparison to football and basketball. Also don't think a coach staying for a period of time builds anything but complacency unless it's a Saban type coach. Winning in basketball means making the tournament regularly. We can do it if we want to put what's required into it. But we won't. Which is why a large number of fans just don't care and will settle for this.

What quantifies making the tournament "regularly?"

[BeardoMSU]

Hiring his replacement would be much easier in that situation.

This.

[Cooterpoot]

What quantifies making the tournament "regularly?"

Every couple years. I'm not even saying every year. Couple years in a row. Miss a year or two and back. I'm not talking KY.

[BrunswickDawg]

Every couple years. I'm not even saying every year. Couple years in a row. Miss a year or two and back. I'm not talking KY.

Which is what I laid out in my earlier post - at our best under Williams and Stans we typically built toward a JR/Sr laiden team - basically had 2 down years at 16-18 wins, then made the ncaas for 2 years as the group matured and won 22ish games. We've been a bubble team for the past 3 years. Hell we came damn close to winning the NIT - which gave us 25 wins for only the 4th time ever. We've won 10 or more SEC games the past 2 seasons. Know how many other times we've done that over the past 30 years? 7. We've been doing exactly what you say you want. Sorry covid screwed up a second NCAA bid.

[Percho]

You have what, 30, seconds to shoot? First lets try to, set up, a shot as early as possible instead of dribbling for 20 secs. There is a time for dribbling and there is a time to just pass the ball. We need to figure out which is which.

If two OR more people are guarding you, somebody is WIDE open.

TS had four on him one time last night and he still tried to shoot it.

Figure out as early as possible how the game is being called. Last night from the get go, they let them play. Do not drive in looking for a foul, you will just loose the ball, pass more!

[R2Dawg]

Since the Williams era, we typically built toward having a team of JR/SRs that had come in as a group, work together, and had 2 solid seasons (meaning making the NCAAs). We would then drop off to NITish level for a couple of years while the next core group developed. The exception to that is '02-'05 when we got damn lucky with Lawrence Roberts and Shane Power transferred in and picked up where Bowers and Zimmerman left off giving us 4 years in a row of great ball.

There is a reason we were picked 12th in the SEC this year - and we are seeing it on the floor. We are young and inexperienced - but have a core that is talented enough that they could exceed expectations.

And keep this in mind - after year 6, Richard Williams was 85-87 with an SEC title and a 1 and done NCAA; Ben Howland is 107-73 a 1 and done NCAA appearance (would have been 2 sans COVID). And yes, I equate the state of the program where each of them took over as being pretty much equal. But, Howland has us back to where we were under Williams or Stansbury. We were patient with those 2 coaches, why not let Howland take this group through the next 3 years?

Good points. And others have said too, don't want Cohen making any more hires either. It could get a lot worse.

[R2Dawg]

If we were 6th in the sec in football wins over the last 4 seasons, I would fight anyone who called for us replacing our coach. We've been far more successful in basketball lately while really pouring no resources into the sport.

This is true.

[Cooterpoot]

This is true.

6th in a shitty basketball conference doesn't approach 6th in the best football conference in America. Plus, you only need a couple studs on a basketball team to win some games. Well, except Howland. He had three and struggled.

[msstate7]

The last 3 years, the sec has 15 1st round picks. Of the 15 picks, its spread among 8 teams...

Kentucky - 5
Bama - 2
Auburn - 2
Vandy - 2
Georgia - 2
Mizzou - 1
Tenn - 1
aTm - 1

We have zero 1st rounders, so the talk of nba players we've had rings sorta hollow to me.

[Cooterpoot]

The last 3 years, the sec has 15 1st round picks. Of the 15 picks, its spread among 8 teams...

Kentucky - 5
Bama - 2
Auburn - 2
Vandy - 2
Georgia - 2
Mizzou - 1
Tenn - 1
aTm - 1

We have zero 1st rounders, so the talk of nba players we've had rings sorta hollow to me.

Who said anything about rings. I'm only talking about winning a couple games in the tournament. We currently have a couple playing and one in development.

[BrunswickDawg]

6th in a shitty basketball conference doesn't approach 6th in the best football conference in America. Plus, you only need a couple studs on a basketball team to win some games. Well, except Howland. He had three and struggled.

If this is true, why is Kentucky 4-6 right now? Why is Duke 5-4? They have an entire roster of studs. Fire Cal and Coach K!!!!

[maroonmania]

Which is what I laid out in my earlier post - at our best under Williams and Stans we typically built toward a JR/Sr laiden team - basically had 2 down years at 16-18 wins, then made the ncaas for 2 years as the group matured and won 22ish games. We've been a bubble team for the past 3 years. Hell we came damn close to winning the NIT - which gave us 25 wins for only the 4th time ever. We've won 10 or more SEC games the past 2 seasons. Know how many other times we've done that over the past 30 years? 7. We've been doing exactly what you say you want. Sorry covid screwed up a second NCAA bid.

At this point, if we could make the NCAAs every third year and make the NIT the other 2 years most fans would be plenty happy with that. From 01-09 we went to the NCAAs 6 out of 8 years but we will likely never see that again in our lifetimes with our pathetic support of men's basketball. Stansbury had it rolling during that span but after Kirby left and Sidney did his damage it all went to pot from a culture standpoint. Now we've only been to the NCAAs once in a decade. My biggest complaint with Howland is he is just lifeless to garner any energy in his fanbase. Part of it is his age and part is his personality but even when he wins some its only the hardcore MSU sports fans that know or care. Until he hires an assistant to help with in game offensive adjustment on the court and is willing to get out and promote his program some nothing will ever get any better with him because he can't win at the level needed to generate excitement just off of on court success alone. I do believe a younger, more energetic coach would help. And I think a lot of Howland as a person but other than showing up for practices and games he seems pretty detached from the university.

[thf24]

If this is true, why is Kentucky 4-6 right now? Why is Duke 5-4? They have an entire roster of studs. Fire Cal and Coach K!!!!

I don't think people are taking into account nearly enough the unique circumstances of this season and how they've disproportionately affected young teams. I've been as disappointed with our inconsistency as anyone, but it's still no small feat to have a winning record with mostly newcomers and very little preseason. I'm not saying it's a complete excuse since a lot of the usual complaints with Howland's teams here are still showing up, but this year should be considered a gimme for everyone even more so than football.

[trob115]

When Howland took over, we were the worst team in an awful league.


We have improved tremendously since he took over. I think it's only natural we expect moderate improvements from year to year, with the occasional bad year to rebuild. We aren't Kentucky.

The frustration for me is the head scratching losses. Even two years ago, we had several inexcusable losses and we ended up a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament. We likely would have been in the 10-13 seed range last year( with a win in the sec tourney), but we underperformed on the season. Last year we should have been a solid 7-10 seed without needing to win any games in the SEC tournament. He had more talent on last year's team, than any other team he has had here.

Howland's refusal to play a zone defense is more egregious to me than his offensive street ball scheme. Just hopping into a zone from time to time would limit some of the damage we have seen from teams.

Having said all of this, I still support him. We are outperforming expectations this year, and we are a couple of made FTs away from only having 3 losses on the season. I hope he retires next year on top, assuming Molinar and Stewart are both back. We should be primed for another high seed in the NCAA tournament. If he misses the tournament next year, I think he is "asked" to retire.

[R2Dawg]

At this point, if we could make the NCAAs every third year and make the NIT the other 2 years most fans would be plenty happy with that. From 01-09 we went to the NCAAs 6 out of 8 years but we will likely never see that again in our lifetimes with our pathetic support of men's basketball. Stansbury had it rolling during that span but after Kirby left and Sidney did his damage it all went to pot from a culture standpoint. Now we've only been to the NCAAs once in a decade. My biggest complaint with Howland is he is just lifeless to garner any energy in his fanbase. Part of it is his age and part is his personality but even when he wins some its only the hardcore MSU sports fans that know or care. Until he hires an assistant to help with in game offensive adjustment on the court and is willing to get out and promote his program some nothing will ever get any better with him because he can't win at the level needed to generate excitement just off of on court success alone. I do believe a younger, more energetic coach would help. And I think a lot of Howland as a person but other than showing up for practices and games he seems pretty detached from the university.

Stans did have us rolling in those years. Just go back and watch some games. The Hump was alive then. Yes I know bball has changed everywhere since then but we were among top 3-4 in SEC every year back then. We won or finished 2nd in SECW every year.

[RocketDawg]

Stans did have us rolling in those years. Just go back and watch some games. The Hump was alive then. Yes I know bball has changed everywhere since then but we were among top 3-4 in SEC every year back then. We won or finished 2nd in SECW every year.

A lot of that could be holdover from the Final 4, both attendance and recruiting ability. Then along came Sidney. Even that might have been OK if he'd been eligible the first year. Regardless, it was a lot of fun going to games with a packed Hump. We lost a lot of fans because of Stansbury loyalists, a very poor coaching hire, and all that went with those things. Howland's done a good job considering what he inherited.

[maroonmania]

A lot of that could be holdover from the Final 4, both attendance and recruiting ability. Then along came Sidney. Even that might have been OK if he'd been eligible the first year. Regardless, it was a lot of fun going to games with a packed Hump. We lost a lot of fans because of Stansbury loyalists, a very poor coaching hire, and all that went with those things. Howland's done a good job considering what he inherited.

Plus the administration kicking a lot of longtime basketball supporters out of their seats because of the new donation demands to keep them from the reseating. Hard to understand why folks are willing to fork out big bucks to get seats they will almost never use.

[thf24]

A lot of that could be holdover from the Final 4, both attendance and recruiting ability. Then along came Sidney. Even that might have been OK if he'd been eligible the first year. Regardless, it was a lot of fun going to games with a packed Hump. We lost a lot of fans because of Stansbury loyalists, a very poor coaching hire, and all that went with those things. Howland's done a good job considering what he inherited.

I enjoyed Stans' time here and don't intend to downplay what he achieved, but another factor in his success was an incredibly weak divisional schedule during his run. I think as talk mounted about doing away with divisions, and the SEC as whole started getting a little better, he gambled on bringing in proportionately more volatile talent to stay ahead of the curve, which obviously did not pay off. I also think not having a glue guy like Shane Power to help him keep the locker room straight those last few years hastened things.

[Coach34]

We are right back where we were under Stands- winning 20 per and borderline NCAA-worthy.

[Captain Falcon]

I think Howland served his purpose for us and now things have gone as far as they are going to go.

I'm grateful that he pulled us out of the dark ages, but that will probably end up being his greatest accomplishment. Otherwise his legacy is a bunch of forgettable teams that somehow won games a respectable amount of games without accomplishing a whole lot, and the most memorable games of the Howland era are all momentum killing losses (Liberty, multiple Ole Miss losses, the Xavian Stapleton game at Vandy, etc.) All of his teams either underachieve or accomplish the absolute bare minimum of passable results, so he has gotten by to this point without his seat ever really getting warm. I feel that we are on the verge of that changing though, I get the sense that Tuesday's night's showing has soured a lot of people who had been defending Howland to this point.

Like I said, of course it's nice to not be as bad as we were in the Rick Ray years, but that's about where the praise starts and stops for me. If you go back to the fall of 2015 when we had Malik Newman and Q Weatherspoon on campus and were about to sign a highly ranked recruiting class filled with Top 100 players, everyone would have been very underwhelmed if I told you that Howland would have one sure-fire tournament team in six years.

[msstate7]

I think we underestimate how difficult it is to turn around a program and make the NCAA. Bruce Pearl (absolutely great coach), Frank Martin, and Ben howland were all proven HCs when they took over bad sec programs. It took Pearl and howland 4 years to make the NCAA, and it took Martin 5 years to make it. Now Martin and Pearl did make it to the final 4 in year 5, so that's certainly better than anything howland has done here. Martin hasn't been back to the tourney again though 3 years. Pearl is looking like he'll miss it this year. Tourney year-in, year-out at untraditional sec programs is really tough

[R2Dawg]

I think we underestimate how difficult it is to turn around a program and make the NCAA. Bruce Pearl (absolutely great coach), Frank Martin, and Ben howland were all proven HCs when they took over bad sec programs. It took Pearl and howland 4 years to make the NCAA, and it took Martin 5 years to make it. Now Martin and Pearl did make it to the final 4 in year 5, so that's certainly better than anything howland has done here. Martin hasn't been back to the tourney again though 3 years. Pearl is looking like he'll miss it this year. Tourney year-in, year-out at untraditional sec programs is really tough

Yep and UK ain't getting in this year unless they get the blue blood pass

[MetEdDawg]

Here's the issue I have with Howland. We are going to have a hard time accumulating more talent on a team than we have over the past few years.

The 2018-2019 team had Perry, Peters, Weatherspoon, Woodard, Ado, Stewart, Carter, and Holman. And that team couldn't get out of the 1st round of the tournament.

Howland can still develop talent. But he can't take that talent and consistently beat inferior opponents. Ranked wins are very hard to come by as well. We just don't play like a good team consistently enough under Howland.

I don't know that he will ever take us past the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Your best hope is next year your guards and Tolu all stay and you can put enough pieces around that nucleus to take you far. But even then, it still boils down to the same question. Do you trust Howland's ability to coach us into a consistent winner? And that answer to me is a definitive no.

[Todd4State]

Here's the issue I have with Howland. We are going to have a hard time accumulating more talent on a team than we have over the past few years.

The 2018-2019 team had Perry, Peters, Weatherspoon, Woodard, Ado, Stewart, Carter, and Holman. And that team couldn't get out of the 1st round of the tournament.

Howland can still develop talent. But he can't take that talent and consistently beat inferior opponents. Ranked wins are very hard to come by as well. We just don't play like a good team consistently enough under Howland.

I don't know that he will ever take us past the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Your best hope is next year your guards and Tolu all stay and you can put enough pieces around that nucleus to take you far. But even then, it still boils down to the same question. Do you trust Howland's ability to coach us into a consistent winner? And that answer to me is a definitive no.

It seems to me like the only way we're ever going to have a chance to go to a Sweet 16 is to have a senior laden group at about 3-4 positions and then have 1-2 early NBA guys.

[Lord McBuckethead]

The issue i have is that our offense never seems to take the next step. Ado is almost exaxtly who he has always been. I would have loved to see his game extend into a strong pick and roll.