Anti-Leach doesn't mean anti-pass

[msugolf]

This is one of the more annoying, bothersome critiques from the pro-Leach crowd. Just because I'm not a fan of Leach (never have been) doesn't mean I want to run the wish bone or triple option. It just means that I think there are better (pass happy) options that would fit our university and demographics better. Yet there are several people who act as if Leach invented the passing game and his is the only sure fire way to go.

We also have to figure out what our goals are as a football program. When we hired Leach it was all about Cohen attempting to take us to another level that Mullen couldn't; to be able to beat the top level teams by throwing it more. Now the goalposts have been moved to we need to transition to a more modern day offense...pass heavy, throwing it all over the field. And now here we are rebuilding our football program after nuking it from the ground up, just to get back to where Dan had it. And for what, just to pass more? You're telling me the only way to transition into a more modern style offense was to blow up the program?

I get there were some locker room problems as well but you don't always have to cut off all your limbs because you have a hangnail.

[DownwardDawg]

This is a good post!!

[ShotgunDawg]

This is one of the more annoying, bothersome critiques from the pro-Leach crowd. Just because I'm not a fan of Leach (never have been) doesn't mean I want to run the wish bone or triple option. It just means that I think there are better (pass happy) options that would fit our university and demographics better. Yet there are several people who act as if Leach invented the passing game and his is the only sure fire way to go.

We also have to figure out what our goals are as a football program. When we hired Leach it was all about Cohen attempting to take us to another level that Mullen couldn't; to be able to beat the top level teams by throwing it more. Now the goalposts have been moved to we need to transition to a more modern day offense...pass heavy, throwing it all over the field. And now here we are rebuilding our football program after nuking it from the ground up, just to get back to where Dan had it. And for what, just to pass more? You're telling me the only way to transition into a more modern style offense was to blow up the program?

I get there were some locker room problems as well but you don't always have to cut off all your limbs because you have a hangnail.

Joe nuked our football program, not Leach.

I'm not sure Leach has actually kicked anyone off the team or is them quitting because the standards are high the same as kicking them off?

Who cut the limbs off?

[Maroonthirteen]

Hear, Hear!!!!!

I realize Bounds and others want to discredit others and make others look stupid for questioning Leach. However you're exactly right. I, in no way, want a 1980 offense. I do want an offensive that is productive. Leachs offense is absolutely atrocious.

[msugolf]

Joe nuked our football program, not Leach.

I'm not sure Leach has actually kicked anyone off the team or is them quitting because the standards are high the same as kicking them off?

Who cut the limbs off?

You have to get approval from the top dog (Cohen) to be able to do what's being done to the program so I'd start there

[ShotgunDawg]

You have to get approval from the top dog (Cohen) to be able to do what's being done to the program so I'd start there

Approval to do what?

Who has Leach kicked off the team? Name one player that Leach kicked off?

[bluelightstar]

This is one of the more annoying, bothersome critiques from the pro-Leach crowd. Just because I'm not a fan of Leach (never have been) doesn't mean I want to run the wish bone or triple option. It just means that I think there are better (pass happy) options that would fit our university and demographics better. Yet there are several people who act as if Leach invented the passing game and his is the only sure fire way to go.

We also have to figure out what our goals are as a football program. When we hired Leach it was all about Cohen attempting to take us to another level that Mullen couldn't; to be able to beat the top level teams by throwing it more. Now the goalposts have been moved to we need to transition to a more modern day offense...pass heavy, throwing it all over the field. And now here we are rebuilding our football program after nuking it from the ground up, just to get back to where Dan had it. And for what, just to pass more? You're telling me the only way to transition into a more modern style offense was to blow up the program?

I get there were some locker room problems as well but you don't always have to cut off all your limbs because you have a hangnail.

Great post. People are creating a false dilemma -- you don't have to choose between the triple option and throwing the ball 65 times a game. People say Ole Miss was "pass happy" under Hugh Freeze but they never averaged fewer than 35 carries a game. You know why? Because everybody (except Mike Leach apparently) knows you have to be able to run the ball in this league.

[RiverCityDawg]

You make some fair points, but I feel like there's this underlying sentiment by many, and I see it in your post, that it would have been easy just to plug any Tom, Dick or Harry in at coach and do what Dan Mullen did. Not only what Dan did, but I what he did in 2014 or at least 2015 & 2017.

1) We just weren't set up to sustain that level of success based on personnel. Yes, for 2018 and especially on defense, and that's a failing of Moorhead's, but there were some holes in the roster that are coming home to roost. There's a great T&L podcast episode from a week or two back that breaks down the last few recruiting classes and it's a mess.

2) Dan was/is a damn good coach. Yes, he lost some focus and drive with us towards the end, but what he did at his peak isn't easily replicated. He's a top coach and we were fortunate to scoop him up on the rise. Hiring a head coach in the SEC is hard, especially at State. We just don't have the ability to pick whoever we want. It's not poor ol missippi state, it's just the truth. You make a bad hire in Moorhead and a program like ours gets in a hole in a hurry. Mike Leach is a proven winner at the P5 level and has always done so with inferior talent relative to his opponents in his conference. That's exactly what we're facing, so it makes sense to get someone with that resume. You could try and land another up and comer like Dan, but the failure rate on that approach is higher than the success rate. The obvious guys have "better" options than State.

All that to say, maybe we didn't have to take on THIS transition, but I think some of what we're seeing would have happened with any coach just based on what was being taken over. We could be MORE successful on offense, but how much more? Enough to win one more game maybe? The hope obviously is that the medium/long term success will outweigh the short term sacrifice. We'll see.

[msugolf]

Approval to do what?

Who has Leach kicked off the team? Name one player that Leach kicked off?

Who said anything about kicking kids off the team? Not me ... oh wait that was you projecting that onto me ..twice. Just saying it a bunch of times doesn't make it true.

I do however believe the choice in scheme has caused some opt outs and has led to players not being utilized as well as they can/could be, which in turn has caused our fans to just say "oh so and so is horrible. we need to recruit better. Leach needs his guys." That's BS

[msugolf]

Great post. People are creating a false dilemma -- you don't have to choose between the triple option and throwing the ball 65 times a game. People say Ole Miss was "pass happy" under Hugh Freeze but they never averaged fewer than 35 carries a game. You know why? Because everybody (except Mike Leach apparently) knows you have to be able to run the ball in this league.

Bo Bounds is the worst at this. He had Freeze on the other day and tried to bait him into agreeing with him about the myth of a balanced offense, which Leach is known for mocking. Freeze responded "Well, we sure want to have the appearance of a balanced offense to keep defenses on their toes." Radio silence after that response ...loved it.

[ShotgunDawg]

Who said anything about kicking kids off the team? Not me ... oh wait that was you projecting that onto me ..twice. Just saying it a bunch of times doesn't make it true.

I do however believe the choice in scheme has caused some opt outs and has led to players not being utilized as well as they can/could be, which in turn has caused our fans to just say "oh so and so is horrible. we need to recruit better. Leach needs his guys." That's BS

So a scheme that some players don't fit is "burning the program to the ground"?

[AROB44]

Dan was/is a damn good coach. Yes, he lost some focus and drive with us towards the end, but what he did at his peak isn't easily replicated. He's a top coach and we were fortunate to scoop him up on the rise. Hiring a head coach in the SEC is hard, especially at State. We just don't have the ability to pick whoever we want. It's not poor ol missippi state, it's just the truth.

This is so true. We are a very difficult place to win based on being in the SEC West. You are almost guaranteed 2 or 3 losses per year in this division. Very little room for error.

[msugolf]

So a scheme that some players don't fit is "burning the program to the ground"?

Would you rather me call it a "3-4 year transition period?" Is that less offensive?

[Maroonthirteen]

You make some good points and observations. Just look at Tennessee. They have gone through coach after coach and they have plenty of resources to be successful. Finding a good coach that is a good fit isn't easy. I, for one, think schools fire coaches way to quick. But I digress that is a different topic.

However I don't buy any of this "Cohen had a vision to change the football program." He hired Moorhead because Day turned him down and Moorhead was a good hire on paper.

Cohen hired Leach because he was out of options. The whole .... get his players, transition the program... are excuses to buy time for Leach's buyout to go down.

State will get back to its roots next hiring cycle. We will really be in a rebuild at that point.

[bluelightstar]

You make some good points and observations. Just look at Tennessee. They have gone through coach after coach and they have plenty of resources to be successful. Finding a good coach that is a good fit isn't easy. I, for one, think schools fire coaches way to quick. But I digress that is a different topic.

However I don't buy any of this "Cohen had a vision to change the football program." He hired Moorhead because Day turned him down and Moorhead was a good hire on paper.

Cohen hired Leach because he was out of options. The whole .... get his players, transition the program... are excuses to buy time for Leach's buyout to go down.

State will get back to its roots next hiring cycle. We will really be in a rebuild at that point.

It's somewhat frustrating because if Leach fails, we're definitely going to go back to a spread option offense. And then it'll take us a while to get any running backs, a run blocking line, and a QB that can run power on 3rd and short.

[HoopsDawg]

There's nothing modern about Joe Lee Leach's offense.

[msstate7]

There's nothing modern about Joe Lee Leach's offense.

I led the charge against Moorhead. Hoops taking the wheel for leach haha

[HoopsDawg]

I led the charge against Moorhead. Hoops taking the wheel for leach haha

Moorhead recruited his tail off. He cared about the players. He tried. It just turned out that Moorhead was ill-equipped for the job. He was not a fit at MSU or as an SEC head coach. Had to move on. Cohen tried to re-create the Mullen hire and it back fired in a major way.

It feels different with Leach. It's either gross incompetence, indifference, or stubborness. To not evolve or adapt your system to attack the same defense that we have faced every single week since the LSU game is maddening. We have had 2 bye weeks and nothing. It's completely unfair to all of the players and fans. He is not putting them in a position to be successful and he has to know he's not. The only conclusion I can reasonably make is that he either doesn't give a damn or he is too incompetent to make adjustments.

[RiverCityDawg]

Moorhead recruited his tail off. He cared about the players. He tried. It just turned out that Moorhead was ill-equipped for the job. He was not a fit at MSU or as an SEC head coach. Had to move on. Cohen tried to re-create the Mullen hire and it back fired in a major way.

It feels different with Leach. It's either gross incompetence, indifference, or stubborness. To not evolve or adapt your system to attack the same defense that we have faced every single week since the LSU game is maddening. We have had 2 bye weeks and nothing. It's completely unfair to all of the players and fans. He is not putting them in a position to be successful and he has to know he's not. The only conclusion I can reasonably make is that he either doesn't give a damn or he is too incompetent to make adjustments.

Well there were some adjustments made against Vandy that lead to 17 quick points when they were rushing 3, dropping 8. After they stopped that and started bringing 4 or 5, those adjustments didn't work anymore. Not excusing everything, but there literally were some adjustments that actually worked. Problem now is that we're playing a true freshman QB, true freshmen RBs, constant shuffle at OL and very few/no playmakers at WRs. The games to win were the Ark and UK games but poor QB play and crap OL play did us in.

But let's be honest, we're 6 games in during a crazy COVID year and you're declaring this a decided failure because that was your thought as soon as the hire was made. It's bias confirmation for you. Not that it's not good now, of course it's not, but that it's never going to be turned around. We simply don't know the medium/long term outlook and anyone saying so is biased and/or just guessing just as much as those saying it's definitely going to be turned around.

[Hot Rock]

This anti-Leach crowd is the worst. They have this idea in their head that football has to be played their way. Leach ain't doing it your way but his and guess what, it works. He will get it done and you will eat crow.

[HoopsDawg]

Well there were some adjustments made against Vandy that lead to 17 quick points when they were rushing 3, dropping 8. After they stopped that and started bringing 4 or 5, those adjustments didn't work anymore. Not excusing everything, but there literally were some adjustments that actually worked. Problem now is that we're playing a true freshman QB, true freshmen RBs, constant shuffle at OL and very few/no playmakers at WRs. The games to win were the Ark and UK games but poor QB play and crap OL play did us in.

But let's be honest, we're 6 games in during a crazy COVID year and you're declaring this a decided failure because that was your thought as soon as the hire was made. It's bias confirmation for you. Not that it's not good now, of course it's not, but that it's never going to be turned around. We simply don't know the medium/long term outlook and anyone saying so is biased and/or just guessing just as much as those saying it's definitely going to be turned around.

I was excited when the hire was made. I was even more on board after the LSU game. I've learned a lot more about Leach and his system since that time. I'm judging based on what I'm seeing and reading. Just read Jimmy Lake's comments. Read former player comments. Look at the adjustments everyone, literally everyone on the Leach coaching tree have made. Leach hasn't adapted at all. He running the same plays he's ran his whole career. I'm still holding out on the 1% of hope that Leach will adapt his system for next season, but I haven't seen any evidence to support that notion.

[Hot Rock]

That is, if you idiots don't run him off before he gets it going. He isn't some up and coming guy but a proven one.

You guys are kiling me. Let him do his job, give him the time to do it and shut up already. Three years in and it's shit then OK but this year? Hell no!

[HoopsDawg]

This anti-Leach crowd is the worst. They have this idea in their head that football has to be played their way. Leach ain't doing it your way but his and guess what, it works. He will get it done and you will eat crow.

Not anti-Leach. I'm anti-sucking. I'm anti-one dimensional. I'm anti-throwing the ball 60 times against a 3 man rush.

msstate7, how many offensive points have we averaged since LSU?

[Cooterpoot]

Well, it's also ok to not like what you see on offense, but not demand we fire people after half a season.
And I stick with my opinion that you still have to be somewhat balanced on offense to be great. Hate what I've watched. But I'll wait. This season is a steaming pile of burnt trash. Next needs to show me something.

[HoopsDawg]

Well, it's also ok to not like what you see on offense, but not demand we fire people after half a season.
And I stick with my opinion that you still have to be somewhat balanced on offense to be great. Hate what I've watched. But I'll wait. This season is a steaming pile of burnt trash. Next needs to show me something.

I haven't called for him to be fired. The contract that Cohen gave him means we are stuck for at least 2 more years. But he will be a failure if he doesn't add in some semblance of a running attack.

[msstate7]

Not anti-Leach. I'm anti-sucking. I'm anti-one dimensional. I'm anti-throwing the ball 60 times against a 3 man rush.

msstate7, how many offensive points have we averaged since LSU?

~ 10 ppg, I think

[RiverCityDawg]

I was excited when the hire was made. I was even more on board after the LSU game. I've learned a lot more about Leach and his system since that time. I'm judging based on what I'm seeing and reading. Just read Jimmy Lake's comments. Read former player comments. Look at the adjustments everyone, literally everyone on the Leach coaching tree have made. Leach hasn't adapted at all. He running the same plays he's ran his whole career. I'm still holding out on the 1% of hope that Leach will adapt his system for next season, but I haven't seen any evidence to support that notion.

Yet Leach has been more successful than many of those from his coaching tree. Kingsbury wasn't near the college coach Leach has been, Holgerson hasn't been as successful, Riley was given a top program so a completely different context as Leach.

We didn't lose to Arkansas and UK because they solved the riddle that defeats this scheme every time, we lost because we can't run our scheme yet. If it was just the scheme, WSU would have never had any success against Oregon, USC or any other team that out recruited them and dropped 7 or 8 in coverage. Yet they did. Every time? No. Because less talented teams NEVER get the best of more talented teams every time. But they exceeded what you would think they should do based on talent profile.

There is a discussion to be had about whether our inability to run the scheme THIS year is the fault of coaching or not, but we're not in a position to make any grand declarations on the scheme as a whole in a normal-ish year going forward. Not yet.

And finally, I seem to recall you specifically saying you were against any coach that doesn't run the QB sneak. That it was just that simple for you. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else, but that sounds like someone who has their mind made up going in.

[HoopsDawg]

~ 10 ppg, I think

Yep, that's working well Hot Rock. Not to mention it's the most boring brand of football I have seen in 40+ years of watching football.

[HoopsDawg]

Yet Leach has been more successful than many of those from his coaching tree. Kingsbury wasn't near the college coach Leach has been, Holgerson hasn't been as successful, Riley was given a top program so a completely different context as Leach.

We didn't lose to Arkansas and UK because they solved the riddle that defeats this scheme every time, we lost because we can't run our scheme yet. If it was just the scheme, WSU would have never had any success against Oregon, USC or any other team that out recruited them and dropped 7 or 8 in coverage. Yet they did. Every time? No. Because less talented teams NEVER get the best of more talented teams every time. But they exceeded what you would think they should do based on talent profile.

There is a discussion to be had about whether our inability to run the scheme THIS year is the fault of coaching or not, but we're not in a position to make any grand declarations on the scheme as a whole in a normal-ish year going forward. Not yet.

And finally, I seem to recall you specifically saying you were against any coach that doesn't run the QB sneak. That it was just that simple for you. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else, but that sounds like someone who has their mind made up going in.

agree to disagree.

[FISHDAWG]

I was excited when the hire was made. I was even more on board after the LSU game. I've learned a lot more about Leach and his system since that time. I'm judging based on what I'm seeing and reading. Just read Jimmy Lake's comments. Read former player comments. Look at the adjustments everyone, literally everyone on the Leach coaching tree have made. Leach hasn't adapted at all. He running the same plays he's ran his whole career. I'm still holding out on the 1% of hope that Leach will adapt his system for next season, but I haven't seen any evidence to support that notion.

this is exactly where I'm at ... I was excited about the hire and still was after the Arky game but started seeing things I really questioned after the Kentucky game .... I was also originally excited about JoMo at first but it didn't take to long before I realized maybe he was in a little over his head in SEC competition as a HC ... I still tried to give him the benefit of the doubt after doing nothing creative that first year - He ran Fitz to death and the entire world KNEW what was coming on 3rd & 5 .... Next season we all know how that went.
I'm still behind Leach and I've always thought that you give a new coach at least 3 years minimum before making any tough decisions which I and others are still willing to do unless it becomes glaringly obviousthat he just won't work out here ..... and that is kinda where we are at with Leach - hoping to see some innovation or adaptation to let us build up some faith in his approach to competing in the SEC. The SEC has had an awful lot of openings for head coaches in the past 20 years and there must be a reason it took this long ... and this school to bring him here.
I and others may complain somewhat but it doesn't mean we all want him fired - just want to see some glimpses now to know that he is deserving of 3 or 4 more years because it won't be easy to keep the fanbase without that encouragement or hope

[R2Dawg]

Joe nuked our football program, not Leach.

I'm not sure Leach has actually kicked anyone off the team or is them quitting because the standards are high the same as kicking them off?

Who cut the limbs off?

Disagree. Culture wise, yeah Joe nuked it. Football wise, well Leach did that part.

[R2Dawg]

Not anti-Leach. I'm anti-sucking. I'm anti-one dimensional. I'm anti-throwing the ball 60 times against a 3 man rush.

msstate7, how many offensive points have we averaged since LSU?

Right there with you Hoops. If we are gonna run something 60-70 times a game it better be something that works. If not, do something else.

[R2Dawg]

I think some of our player issues not getting on board are they see that it isn't gonna work. They want to compete and win not suck every play. Seen the same thing play out at work many times. People don't get on board or fall off when they see it doesn't work (the new program).

[ShotgunDawg]

Disagree. Culture wise, yeah Joe nuked it. Football wise, well Leach did that part.

I don't agree. We were pretty terrible in the Music City Bowl and last season.

Did you miss our defensive effort vs Auburn & A&M last year?

Does Leach get no credit for building a culture that has made our defense night and day better this season?

[ShotgunDawg]

I think some of our player issues not getting on board are they see that it isn't gonna work. They want to compete and win not suck every play. Seen the same thing play out at work many times. People don't get on board or fall off when they see it doesn't work (the new program).

So our players are smarter about football than they guy that's won for 20 years? Interesting

Just think about how ridiculous what you're saying is

[R2Dawg]

I don't agree. We were pretty terrible in the Music City Bowl and last season.

Did you miss our defensive effort vs Auburn & A&M last year?

Does Leach get no credit for building a culture that has made our defense night and day better this season?

I didn't say we were a good team last year but we had some talent - proof this year's D.

Where did I not give Leach credit for correcting some culture stuff?

Reading comprehension 101 gun.

[ShotgunDawg]

I didn't say we were a good team last year but we had some talent - proof this year's D.

Where did I not give Leach credit for correcting some culture stuff?

Reading comprehension 101 gun.

IDK man, you been saying some pretty unreasonable stuff

[R2Dawg]

So our players are smarter about football than they guy that's won for 20 years? Interesting

Just think about how ridiculous what you're saying is

Not saying Leach hasn't had success but he isn't a football god either. He never played football so you think there is some stuff he doesn't understand? Yep. The coaches that find the right balance actually played football.

Again my analogy to business world. The corporation may be successful but it ain't always the CEO or guy at top for the reasons. I see it all the time some outsider comes in and tries to tell people a new way (wrong way to do something) that the experts in the field have been doing for 30 years. They know it won't work, seen it never work. Well they may do it but they ain't buying in. The fact it doesn't work has nothing to do with them buying in because they still do the job. Just flawed philosophy.

[R2Dawg]

IDK man, you been saying some pretty unreasonable stuff

You may not agree or understand, that is OK but I ain't said nothing unreasonable. You have misquoted me cause you didn't understand. Not the same thing as unreasonable.

[ShotgunDawg]

Not saying Leach hasn't had success but he isn't a football god either. He never played football so you think there is some stuff he doesn't understand? Yep. The coaches that find the right balance actually played football.

Again my analogy to business world. The corporation may be successful but it ain't always the CEO or guy at top for the reasons. I see it all the time some outsider comes in and tries to tell people a new way (wrong way to do something) that the experts in the field have been doing for 30 years. They know it won't work, seen it never work. Well they may do it but they ain't buying in. The fact it doesn't work has nothing to do with them buying in because they still do the job. Just flawed philosophy.

https://twitter.com/Calhoun__23/status/1327644337082142725?s=20

[Hot Rock]

Not anti-Leach. I'm anti-sucking. I'm anti-one dimensional. I'm anti-throwing the ball 60 times against a 3 man rush.

msstate7, how many offensive points have we averaged since LSU?

Leach's offense is the most balanced offense in the league. Your understanding of the subject just makes it clear you have no clue what that means to him. It's your definition of balanced or nothing.

Will State suck tomorrow? Yes, but at some point he will get this team or the next team out executing the opponent. At that point, you will eat crow.

It's not that he needs all new players, he needs all the players on same page at the same time executing to a high level. They cannot do that right now. So, they suck. They suck against Bama and the suck against Vandy. It's not the so called SEC speed that's killing them, it's the poor execution level.

The only way to get better is to keep teaching and working and not listen to the noise.

[bluelightstar]

Leach's offense is the most balanced offense in the league. Your understanding of the subject just makes it clear you have no clue what that means to him. It's your definition of balanced or nothing.

Will State suck tomorrow? Yes, but at some point he will get this team or the next team out executing the opponent. At that point, you will eat crow.

It's not that he needs all new players, he needs all the players on same page at the same time executing to a high level. They cannot do that right now. So, they suck. They suck against Bama and the suck against Vandy. It's not the so called SEC speed that's killing them, it's the poor execution level.

The only way to get better is to keep teaching and working and not listen to the noise.

Huh??

[msstate7]

Huh??

Equally crappy passing as running = balance, maybe?

[FISHDAWG]

Huh??

yeah I know lol .... it's time to quit engaging this guy in discussion

[HoopsDawg]

Leach's offense is the most balanced offense in the league. Your understanding of the subject just makes it clear you have no clue what that means to him. It's your definition of balanced or nothing.

Will State suck tomorrow? Yes, but at some point he will get this team or the next team out executing the opponent. At that point, you will eat crow.

It's not that he needs all new players, he needs all the players on same page at the same time executing to a high level. They cannot do that right now. So, they suck. They suck against Bama and the suck against Vandy. It's not the so called SEC speed that's killing them, it's the poor execution level.

The only way to get better is to keep teaching and working and not listen to the noise.

Ok Crack Rock.

[Hot Rock]

Ok Crack Rock.

Balance is attacking all portions of the field and not run vs pass. Leach's offense can do that as well as any offense out there.

The problem with this team is in the execution level. We truly suck so bad at execution that even Vandy's defense looked good. That's actually encouraging to me. I know he will get this team executing at a higher level within a year or two then State will be competitive for a very long time. Let's see how it plays out... we in now.

[HoopsDawg]

Balance is attacking all portions of the field and not run vs pass. Leach's offense can do that as well as any offense out there.

The problem with this team is in the execution level. We truly suck so bad at execution that even Vandy's defense looked good. That's actually encouraging to me. I know he will get this team executing at a higher level within a year or two then State will be competitive for a very long time. Let's see how it plays out... we in now.

Balance is being able to pass when a team takes away the run, and being able to run when a team takes away the pass.

The only portion of the field Leach can attack vs the 3-8 is the 3 yard checkdown. This isn't 2001, it's not even 2014, teams are comfortable playing 5-6 DB's. The back 7 is much more athletic across the board in college football and especially in the SEC.

[Hot Rock]

Balance is being able to pass when a team takes away the run, and being able to run when a team takes away the pass.

The only portion of the field Leach can attack vs the 3-8 is the 3 yard checkdown. This isn't 2001, it's not even 2014, teams are comfortable playing 5-6 DB's. The back 7 is much more athletic across the board in college football and especially in the SEC.


If you think 3-8 solves this offense you are wrong. It does nothing but expose the pitiful execution of this team.


Balance is being able to attack as much of the field with multiple weapons no matter what they take away. It's about space not running when you can't pass.

Running the ball is much easier to teach. Why did Croom fail? It wasn't his offense, the West Coast offense works great for Joe Montana and lots of teams use it effectively but Croom couldn't teach it to college players well enough for them to get the execution level required. Leach can and has taught his offense effectively but never without a spring or even summer workouts. No way this year should be used to judge whether or not it can work. It won't take all new players either, a lot of the guys we have on the roster now will still be here when things start to turn around. They just have to execute it better.

I will bookmark this thread and you guys will see it one day pop up with me calling you out.

[RezDog7]

Yep, that's working well Hot Rock. Not to mention it's the most boring brand of football I have seen in 40+ years of watching football.

I bet you didn't think the LSU game was boring.

[RezDog7]

Equally crappy passing as running = balance, maybe?

No, spreading the ball out to 10 different players is balance instead of letting Fitz and Dak run up the middle every other play.

[HoopsDawg]

I bet you didn't think the LSU game was boring.

I didn't. And we won't see that defense again until Leach is either fired or adapts his scheme.

[RezDog7]

I didn't. And we won't see that defense again until Leach is either fired or adapts his scheme.

Like that time we played Vanderbilt?

[HoopsDawg]

Like that time we played Vanderbilt?

What adjustments were made against Vandy? We had 200 yards of offense.

[Percho]

Pruning removes dead and dying branches and stubs, allowing room for new growth and protecting your property and passerby from damage. It also deters pest and animal infestation and promotes the plant's natural shape and healthy growth.

Chopping off instead of kicking off?

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

You make some fair points, but I feel like there's this underlying sentiment by many, and I see it in your post, that it would have been easy just to plug any Tom, Dick or Harry in at coach and do what Dan Mullen did. Not only what Dan did, but I what he did in 2014 or at least 2015 & 2017.

1) We just weren't set up to sustain that level of success based on personnel. Yes, for 2018 and especially on defense, and that's a failing of Moorhead's, but there were some holes in the roster that are coming home to roost. There's a great T&L podcast episode from a week or two back that breaks down the last few recruiting classes and it's a mess.

2) Dan was/is a damn good coach. Yes, he lost some focus and drive with us towards the end, but what he did at his peak isn't easily replicated. He's a top coach and we were fortunate to scoop him up on the rise. Hiring a head coach in the SEC is hard, especially at State. We just don't have the ability to pick whoever we want. It's not poor ol missippi state, it's just the truth. You make a bad hire in Moorhead and a program like ours gets in a hole in a hurry. Mike Leach is a proven winner at the P5 level and has always done so with inferior talent relative to his opponents in his conference. That's exactly what we're facing, so it makes sense to get someone with that resume. You could try and land another up and comer like Dan, but the failure rate on that approach is higher than the success rate. The obvious guys have "better" options than State.

All that to say, maybe we didn't have to take on THIS transition, but I think some of what we're seeing would have happened with any coach just based on what was being taken over. We could be MORE successful on offense, but how much more? Enough to win one more game maybe? The hope obviously is that the medium/long term success will outweigh the short term sacrifice. We'll see.

Those holes are arguably more home to roost now than then. Every teams 2 deep should be a mostly Sr/rJr or Jr rSo players, with a few experienced but non NFL caliber rSr thrown in there with the few true studs of the younger classes. But mostly it should be older guys.

So lets look at those 3 classes:

RSr is a good group of experienced, non NFL caliber guys. Spencer, Kobe Jones, Parker, Eiland, Osirus Mitchell. The trench guys are really critical contributors for us, the other 2...

Sr/rJr has Kylin (headcase that's no longer on the team but I included him because he did play some this year), Odom, and Austin Williams. That's absolutely PATHETIC to only have 2 guys of a 4th year class be in the 2 deep.

Jr/rSo class has actual talent. Dolla Bill, marcus Murphy, Cole Smith, Crumedy, Brule, Watson, Furdge... but some guys that aren't very god yet (Preson) are forced to play due to the upper 2 classes being so bad.

The rest of the players are young. OL specifically (our worst position group) is coincidentally the position group that is the hardest for young guys to play at. it takes about 3 years to even hope of being ready to play, with many well remembered players needing till year 4 to reach their potential.

So of course we suck. We've got guys that should ride the bench a year playing in the 2 deep. We've pressed almost the whole team up a year from their natural development

[CaptainObvious]

This is one of the more annoying, bothersome critiques from the pro-Leach crowd. Just because I'm not a fan of Leach (never have been) doesn't mean I want to run the wish bone or triple option. It just means that I think there are better (pass happy) options that would fit our university and demographics better. Yet there are several people who act as if Leach invented the passing game and his is the only sure fire way to go.

We also have to figure out what our goals are as a football program. When we hired Leach it was all about Cohen attempting to take us to another level that Mullen couldn't; to be able to beat the top level teams by throwing it more. Now the goalposts have been moved to we need to transition to a more modern day offense...pass heavy, throwing it all over the field. And now here we are rebuilding our football program after nuking it from the ground up, just to get back to where Dan had it. And for what, just to pass more? You're telling me the only way to transition into a more modern style offense was to blow up the program?

I get there were some locker room problems as well but you don't always have to cut off all your limbs because you have a hangnail.

You gave an opinion.

Mike Leach is our current Head Coach.

He isn?t going to change his philosophy.

State is not firing him 6 or 7 games into season 1.

State is not firing him at the end of season 1.

So without platitudes and ?personal opinions?, with all of the above as fact, what do you suggest should happen?

[RiverCityDawg]

What adjustments were made against Vandy? We had 200 yards of offense.

We went almost exclusively quick game, used more 12 personnel, and we added that toss/pass that worked several times against the 3 man front. We scored 17 points in the first three possessions.

Problem was it forced them to get out of the rush 3 drop 8 and they started bringing more guys and changing up the coverage, still zone but different than the 8 man coverage they had been doing and what Arkansas/UK did. Our freshman QB and inexperienced OL couldn't pick it up or block it, and yes coach didn't do a good job of adjusting again and we got nothing from then on.