The wheels are falling off....

[Cowbell]

If you guys haven't seen Leech's post-game presser, watch it. Whether you love him or hate him or you're just out kicking rocks, that will show you all you need to know. I'm not gonna say anymore so you guys can form your own opinion. I would post a link but I watched on Facebook.

[DEDawg]

Best case dude just retires and we can save face mutually. Go live in key west and relax the rest of your life and let Cohen have an out.... and then fire Cohen, get a real AD, and go get Freeze or Sark

[Quaoarsking]

That's pretty tame compared to some of his press conferences in the early days at Washington State.

[maroonmania]

Where are you guys watching it? Genespage is so full of ads its hard to listen to anything there.

[HoopsDawg]

We are in deep, deep trouble and I don't see a way out. It's going to be years before we have a watchable product again. Sad.

[Quaoarsking]

Where are you guys watching it? Genespage is so full of ads its hard to listen to anything there.

https://www.forwhomthecowbelltolls.com/2020/11/7/21554725/mississippi-state-football-coach-mike-leach-meets-with-media-following-win-over-vanderbilt

[Todd4State]

Great idea. Let's run off another coach who will land another job and have success somewhere else while we keep rebuilding with the same players who haven't worked for the past two coaches. And then blame the next coach when it doesn't work again...

[Matt3467]

Great idea. Let's run off another coach who will land another job and have success somewhere else while we keep rebuilding with the same players who haven't worked for the past two coaches. And then blame the next coach when it doesn't work again...

This

[Dogbone]

Great idea. Let's run off another coach who will land another job and have success somewhere else while we keep rebuilding with the same players who haven't worked for the past two coaches. And then blame the next coach when it doesn't work again...

Todd, you are exactly right!

[msstate7]

We aren't firing leach. We certainly shouldn't extend him to 4 years again after the year though

[Quaoarsking]

We aren't firing leach. We certainly shouldn't extend him to 4 years again after the year though

Disagree. Every coach who isn't fired should get a full extension as a public vote of confidence. However, that doesn't mean the full buyout has to be in effect for the fourth year.

[DeltaChicagoDog]

Great idea. Let's run off another coach who will land another job and have success somewhere else while we keep rebuilding with the same players who haven't worked for the past two coaches. And then blame the next coach when it doesn't work again...

Yep. And keep right on chasing our tail.

[Matt3467]

Okay I watched the entire post game conference with Leach and thought it was great. All those crying about a small portion of the interview were probably all on the hate Leach bandwagon anyway and it gave fuel to their fire. He also complimented the fans. Some of you guys are ridiculous. Here's the full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOxzjaItj2Q

[Todd4State]

We aren't firing leach. We certainly shouldn't extend him to 4 years again after the year though

No he shouldn't. But that doesn't matter really at this point since he is locked in for the next few years anyway.

[msbulldog]

Disagree. Every coach who isn't fired should get a full extension as a public vote of confidence. However, that doesn't mean the full buyout has to be in effect for the fourth year.

Words of wisdom.

[Cowbell]

Disagree. Every coach who isn't fired should get a full extension as a public vote of confidence. However, that doesn't mean the full buyout has to be in effect for the fourth year.

You do not give a 2-8 coach a vote of confidence. You gave him that up front.

[Cowbell]

What I saw in the interview was him blaming the players in the first portion and it sounds like he is still dealing with a lot of malcontents. He was very very pissed - read his body language. He looks like he is really uncomfortable. Then in the end he told us fans that saw issues with what's going on to maybe find another team. That's a terrible take.

[R2Dawg]

What I saw in the interview was him blaming the players in the first portion and it sounds like he is still dealing with a lot of malcontents. He was very very pissed - read his body language. He looks like he is really uncomfortable. Then in the end he told us fans that saw issues with what's going on to maybe find another team. That's a terrible take.

He is uncomfortable because he knows he has no way out of this. Look when all the coaches and experts of the game say he has to change - mix is up, run ball more if he wants to win that is people outside MSU who know more football than fans. This isn't a fan issue, it is basic football issue.

[Cooterpoot]

Disagree. Every coach who isn't fired should get a full extension as a public vote of confidence. However, that doesn't mean the full buyout has to be in effect for the fourth year.

No coach should get an extension unless they show progress and we don't have the money to pay a buyout or a pointless extension. Extension isn't happening.

[Quaoarsking]

No coach should get an extension unless they show progress and we don't have the money to pay a buyout or a pointless extension. Extension isn't happening.

Whether or not Leach "should" get an extension, there is a 100% chance he will. Croom, Ray, and Moorhead got full extensions every year, and it was the right call. It would tank recruiting, coach retention, and fan support for the AD to so publicly disbelieve in our coach like that.

[Dawgfan77]

Fact is an 0 win 58 player Vandy team held us to under 300 yds of total offense. In other words they figured out how to defend us just like everyone else. The Air Raid will not work in the SEC. why do you think in 20 years no one had run it in this conference?

[msstate7]

Fact is an 0 win 58 player Vandy team held us to under 300 yds of total offense. In other words they figured out how to defend us just like everyone else. The Air Raid will not work in the SEC. why do you think in 20 years no one had run it in this conference?

Saying under 300 is pretty generous to us... we had 204. They were giving up 499 yds/game entering our game. OM had 641 last week vs them

[Cowbell]

Whether or not Leach "should" get an extension, there is a 100% chance he will. Croom, Ray, and Moorhead got full extensions every year, and it was the right call. It would tank recruiting, coach retention, and fan support for the AD to so publicly disbelieve in our coach like that.

Those were 100% not the right call. You just disproved yourself.

[Dawgfan77]

Saying under 300 is pretty generous to us... we had 204. They were giving up 499 yds/game entering our game. OM had 641 last week vs them
You just made my point more valid

[maroonmania]

The Air Raid will not work in the SEC. why do you think in 20 years no one had run it in this conference?

I have doubts it will work as well, but the fact that nobody else has tried to run it in the SEC is not the reason. I really don't know anyone else that runs the Air Raid in the same way Leach does anywhere in any P5 league. Nobody in the Big 12 or Pac 12 ran the Leach style Air Raid either while he was there but that didn't stop it from being effective. In fact, the Air Raid did work at KY in the 90s but I agree that defenses have evolved significantly in the SEC since then to defend the pass game.

[Coach34]

The Air Raid worked at Kentucky because they ran the ball 25 times per game at Kentucky. Leach's Air Raid is different from Mumme's at Kentucky

[Randolph Dupree]

The Air Raid worked at Kentucky because they ran the ball 25 times per game at Kentucky. Leach's Air Raid is different from Mumme's at Kentucky

....and let's face it, they still weren't that successful even with Tim Couch.

[Percho]

Could L E A C H win big with H I S offense at Alabama?

That question is to all who posted before this post.

YES or NO!

[R2Dawg]

Could L E A C H win big with H I S offense at Alabama?

That question is to all who posted before this post.

YES or NO!

On our current 3 play, playlist. Pass 1 yard only and no runs. Win big being 10-15 wins. An emphatic No.

Win 6 and go bowling, Maybe. Also possible they have a losing season with that formula.

[Bothrops]

Leach is going to have to prove he can't ever win again before he gets fired here. That's two more seasons away. I think it's crazy that some of our fans think we could just go out and get any of these named coaches they want. Our job, to you, and to me, is not what it seems to people on the outside. It's still considered a dead end place to the media and the coaching world. Don't believe it, just watch how the fake pundits in the media continue to patronize us, as if we haven't had a winning season in modern times.

[Percho]

Methinks Leach was a named coach 90 to 95 percent of our fans wanted but thought we would never be able to hire.

[Coach34]

Leach is going to have to prove he can't ever win again before he gets fired here. That's two more seasons away. I think it's crazy that some of our fans think we could just go out and get any of these named coaches they want. Our job, to you, and to me, is not what it seems to people on the outside. It's still considered a dead end place to the media and the coaching world. Don't believe it, just watch how the fake pundits in the media continue to patronize us, as if we haven't had a winning season in modern times.

Totally disagree with this.

We hired Jackie Sherrill- who had a natty on his resume. His NCAA baggage was his problem.
Croom was just a bad idea and hiring him over Jimbo Fisher is still one of the dumbest things LT ever did.
Mullen was playing for a Natty and considered one of the top OC's in the country
JoVester was considered a top OC in the country. Just turned out to be a bad HC
Leach has been successful and we hired him away from a P5 school

We havent had any problems in the last 30 years hiring a football coach

[msstate7]

Methinks Leach was a named coach 90 to 95 percent of our fans wanted but thought we would never be able to hire.

I was thrilled to get him. I am worried though

[Cowbell]

The Air Raid worked at Kentucky because they ran the ball 25 times per game at Kentucky. Leach's Air Raid is different from Mumme's at Kentucky

And that team had big wins the first year

[R2Dawg]

Totally disagree with this.

We hired Jackie Sherrill- who had a natty on his resume. His NCAA baggage was his problem.
Croom was just a bad idea and hiring him over Jimbo Fisher is still one of the dumbest things LT ever did.
Mullen was playing for a Natty and considered one of the top OC's in the country
JoVester was considered a top OC in the country. Just turned out to be a bad HC
Leach has been successful and we hired him away from a P5 school

We havent had any problems in the last 30 years hiring a football coach

Dead on 34. The MSU victim thing is so old. We are our own worst enemy.

[bulldawg28]

Leach is blaming everyone but himself. Dude is past his coaching prime and a dinosaur.

[Coldsleeve Jr.]

Great idea. Let's run off another coach who will land another job and have success somewhere else while we keep rebuilding with the same players who haven't worked for the past two coaches. And then blame the next coach when it doesn't work again...

Great idea.

Or we couldve hired Sam Pittman and won a few extra games

God we have some stupid fans

[Todd4State]

Totally disagree with this.

We hired Jackie Sherrill- who had a natty on his resume. His NCAA baggage was his problem.
Croom was just a bad idea and hiring him over Jimbo Fisher is still one of the dumbest things LT ever did.
Mullen was playing for a Natty and considered one of the top OC's in the country
JoVester was considered a top OC in the country. Just turned out to be a bad HC
Leach has been successful and we hired him away from a P5 school

We havent had any problems in the last 30 years hiring a football coach

Leach was the third guy on Cohen's list at BEST. Including behind Napier who didn't want the job and Judge who is an alum- of course he got a NFL job.

Moorhead was behind Ryan Day who took the Ohio State job.

We're not bad- but we're not exactly getting our pick of the litter either.

[Todd4State]

Great idea.

Or we couldve hired Sam Pittman and won a few extra games

God we have some stupid fans

Yeah- well "we" didn't. If you think that Sam Pittman would win with this group then I'm not the stupid one.

[Coldsleeve Jr.]

Yeah- well "we" didn't. If you think that Sam Pittman would win with this group then I'm not the stupid one.

If you read that and thought the point was "we should've hired Sam Pittman", you are stupid

[HancockCountyDog]

Yeah- well "we" didn't. If you think that Sam Pittman would win with this group then I'm not the stupid one.

You think Arkansas has more talent than we do? Really?

His coaching staff is fantastic and coaching matters.

[confucius say]

You think Arkansas has more talent than we do? Really?

His coaching staff is fantastic and coaching matters.

Yes. Without hill and scrhrader etc...
Very comparable though.

Pittman and Odom and briles have done a great job for sure.

[HancockCountyDog]

Yes. Without hill and scrhrader etc...
Very comparable though.

Pittman and Odom and briles have done a great job for sure.

You think Hill leaves if he is getting the ball the way Arkansas is running the ball?

You think our OL looks the way it does running that offense?

If you had said before the season that Arkansas was more talented than us, you may have been banned; Now it?s a reality because we are running an outdated offense that teams as terrible as Vandy have figured out.

Man, it must be nice to have so many excuses ready if you are Leach;

[confucius say]

You think Hill leaves if he is getting the ball the way Arkansas is running the ball?

You think our OL looks the way it does running that offense?

If you had said before the season that Arkansas was more talented than us, you may have been banned; Now it?s a reality because we are running an outdated offense that teams as terrible as Vandy have figured out.

Man, it must be nice to have so many excuses ready if you are Leach;

I think I gave you the wrong impression. I am simply saying as the rosters sit right now, there is no appreciable difference in talent. Look at the recruiting rankings and attrition and you will see that.

Now, that doesn't change the fact that leach has sucked. The only way he will ever be good here doing what he is doing now is if he gets incredible OL and game breaking wr. I don't think he can do that but we will see. His only other option is to run the ball more.

[Matt3467]

Totally disagree with this.

We hired Jackie Sherrill- who had a natty on his resume. His NCAA baggage was his problem.
Croom was just a bad idea and hiring him over Jimbo Fisher is still one of the dumbest things LT ever did.
Mullen was playing for a Natty and considered one of the top OC's in the country
JoVester was considered a top OC in the country. Just turned out to be a bad HC
Leach has been successful and we hired him away from a P5 school

We haven't had any problems in the last 30 years hiring a football coach

All-time W-L-T records

MSU - 580-559-37.
Ole Miss - 647-517-34
Vanderbilt - 547-611-43
Bama - 936-305-42
LSU - 784-405-47
TN - 823-381-51
GA - 809-404-50
A&M - 732-474-44
FLA - 712-412-37
AU - 754-437-43
Mizzou - 637-540-50
ARK - 686-494-37
SC - 581-558-41
KY - 501-561-36

Before Mullen came in we had an overall losing record. Outside of KY and Vandy we have the worst record in the SEC. Even then KY has won the SEC twice. Besides one year under Mullen we haven't even had a winning record in SEC play since Sherrill. Our one year where we were in the running for a NC we threw it away by going on to lose by two scores to a collapsed OM team that had lost 3 of their last 4 and just came off a game where they lost to a 5-5 ARK team 0-30. We then of course lose to the complete opposite of the air raid in the Orange Bowl.

We were talked about as a coaching graveyard before Sherrill came here: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1992-10-01-9201240798-story.html
Sherrill still left here with an overall losing record (74-76) and losing record in bowls (2-4). You may say well that's because of the NCAA baggage and I'd tell you that's MSU for you. Mullen was our greatest coach but didn't it leave a sour taste in your mouth knowing the man was looking for a way out every year except maybe '09?

We can argue what ifs all the day long like what if Royal stayed, McKeen officially won the NC, Sherrill never had NCAA issues, why we hired Croom over Fisher, what if Mullen was committed to State, why we hired Moorhead when Kyle Whittingham wanted the job. None of that matters because it didn't happen.

Sometimes I wonder if the years we had under Mullen was really worth it because it seems to have really made our fanbase toxic. When we go from firing a coach two years in and wanting to fire the next one 4 games in that's a problem. Who in their right mind would ever want to come here and coach a team if he can't be given time to build it up. We aren't FLA, AU, GA, BAMA, LSU, A&M. We don't just reload. There's a reason people have called State a "dead-end place."

[BrunswickDawg]

Sometimes I wonder if the years we had under Mullen was really worth it because it seems to have really made our fanbase toxic. When we go from firing a coach two years in and wanting to fire the next one 4 games in that's a problem. Who in their right mind would ever want to come here and coach a team if he can't be given time to build it up. We aren't FLA, AU, GA, BAMA, LSU, A&M. We don't just reload. There's a reason people have called State a "dead-end place."

But hasn't our fanbase always been that way? I know that people were calling for Jackie to be fired in '95 and '96 so we could hire Bobby Wallace. We had people on here wanting to fire Mullen and bring in Hud during the '13 season.

Now, the flip side of that is that we actually have been incredibly patient from the university side and have given our coaches time - Felker and Croom were both given 5 seasons; only JoMo was cut short (and I will ALWAYS think that was the right move).

[HancockCountyDog]

I think I gave you the wrong impression. I am simply saying as the rosters sit right now, there is no appreciable difference in talent. Look at the recruiting rankings and attrition and you will see that.

The reason the rosters look the same is because we have put our guys in an offense that makes them look on par with Arkansas. Also, Arkansas has put their kids in an offense that makes them look significantly better than us.

Do you think the bears OL is actually better than ours? I mean is that a question? Of course not, the difference is that the bears OL is not put in a position to fail. Ours has been, so now all of a sudden, our OL which everyone knew would be a strength for us this season, looks like dog shit and they are blaming the players? You know what, you put Eli Manning or Phillip Rivers in a Rich Rod offense, they would like Tyler Russell did. That doesn't mean that they on the same talent level as Tyler Russell. IT just means that they are playing in the wrong offense where their talent cannot be seen by any rational person.

The reason Arkansas looks as good or better than us is coaching. When we played them a few weeks ago, i didn't think for one second that they were more talented than us. If we had a competent offense - we win that game by 20+. How anyone could watch that game and think to themselves - man Arkansas is just as good as us talent wise. Simply a coin flip game???? Are you kidding me.

[confucius say]

We had prominent posters on here tell us dan should have been gone in 2016. That we would look bad to fire him, but our best option was for him to leave on his own.

[Percho]

Do you hire M Leach and tell him coach what you have never coached or coach what you know to coach. How do you think we would look if ML was trying to coach the zone read?

If you think we are behind now, how far behind would he be in two years trying to mix in what he neither knows or wants?

[basedog]

But hasn't our fanbase always been that way? I know that people were calling for Jackie to be fired in '95 and '96 so we could hire Bobby Wallace. We had people on here wanting to fire Mullen and bring in Hud during the '13 season.

Now, the flip side of that is that we actually have been incredibly patient from the university side and have given our coaches time - Felker and Croom were both given 5 seasons; only JoMo was cut short (and I will ALWAYS think that was the right move).

Yes to this!

[pilldawg]

The Air Raid worked at Kentucky because they ran the ball 25 times per game at Kentucky. Leach's Air Raid is different from Mumme's at Kentucky

We can?t run either. We have tried.

[was21]

The answer is that Leach should have never been hired.

[Coach34]

All-time W-L-T records

MSU - 580-559-37.
Ole Miss - 647-517-34
Vanderbilt - 547-611-43
Bama - 936-305-42
LSU - 784-405-47
TN - 823-381-51
GA - 809-404-50
A&M - 732-474-44
FLA - 712-412-37
AU - 754-437-43
Mizzou - 637-540-50
ARK - 686-494-37
SC - 581-558-41
KY - 501-561-36

We were talked about as a coaching graveyard before Sherrill came here: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1992-10-01-9201240798-story.html
Sherrill still left here with an overall losing record (74-76) and losing record in bowls (2-4). You may say well that's because of the NCAA baggage and I'd tell you that's MSU for you. Mullen was our greatest coach but didn't it leave a sour taste in your mouth knowing the man was looking for a way out every year except maybe '09?


But that's the point- since Jackie we have not had a problem hiring a football coach. 1992 changed all that and elevated State when it elevated the SEC. I dont get into all-time records because nothing from 1962 affects us now. Check our record since Integration and use on the field results not the BS forfeits. Check our record with the conference since Jackie took over. 1991- present Miss State football is a different animal than it was in 1965. We used to be looked at the same way as a Memphis or La Tech and had the same facilities. Now its an upset anytime we lose to teams like that.

[BB30]

Look guys, nothing is going to change until we start donating and generating revenue with the big boys.

We are out spent by everyone else in our conference on the recruiting trail and in general and most teams are outspending us by a wide margin

We are out spent when it comes to hiring analysts to help with film and gameplans

We are out raised by everyone in the conference not named Vanderbilt and Vanderbilt may but their info is private since it is a private institution.

We have a champagne taste on a beer budget. We are near dead last in donations in not just the SEC but a large swath of the power 5 teams.

Now, money doesn't always equal success and there are diminishing returns once you are spending a certain amount and bringing in a certain amount but we aren't anywhere near there yet.

We caught lightening in a bottle with Dan. He is a heck of a head coach regardless of what anyone on here may think. What he did here is out of the ordinary again, regardless of what anyone else thinks or expects that is an undisputed fact backed up by 100 years of football.

We should have done everything we could to keep him as you don't let winners go in anything. Instead we threatened to fire him after 2016 and the fanbase started raising expectations which is good but they should also be tempered. You have to see the forest instead of the trees and most of our fanbase is looking at individual trees.

We are in a small state with Bama, Auburn, and LSU on all sides along with OM. We aren't this fairy tale that is set up perfect for success. It takes a hard nosed disciplined coach that will bust his a** on the recruiting trail and coach them up hard to win here. JOMO didn't fit that bill in terms of being hard nosed. I think Leach does and that is the most important quality IMO in a coach here. Discipline in all phases. I don't care what system he runs.

I ultimately think Leach will find a way to win here and am not ready to give up on him yet. A lot of yall really need to dig into the monetary numbers a little more and see just how behind we are in spending on the recruiting trail and with analysts/facilities. I think it will open some eyes as to the hill there to climb.

About the only advantage we have is the fact that we are in the SEC and receive SEC money.

By spending standards we should be in the bottom 1/4th of the conference every single year and really in the bottom 2-3.

Our expectations currently IMO should be 6-9 wins every season and every 4th or 5th season a shot at 10+, if the chips fall right and we win the West that is just icing on the top. Now, if we can consistently do that over say 10-15 years then we will slowly work our way up the ladder.

[FISHDAWG]

Look guys, nothing is going to change until we start donating and generating revenue with the big boys.

We are out spent by everyone else in our conference on the recruiting trail and in general and most teams are outspending us by a wide margin

We are out spent when it comes to hiring analysts to help with film and gameplans

We are out raised by everyone in the conference not named Vanderbilt and Vanderbilt may but their info is private since it is a private institution.

We have a champagne taste on a beer budget. We are near dead last in donations in not just the SEC but a large swath of the power 5 teams.

Now, money doesn't always equal success and there are diminishing returns once you are spending a certain amount and bringing in a certain amount but we aren't anywhere near there yet.

We caught lightening in a bottle with Dan. He is a heck of a head coach regardless of what anyone on here may think. What he did here is out of the ordinary again, regardless of what anyone else thinks or expects that is an undisputed fact backed up by 100 years of football.

We should have done everything we could to keep him as you don't let winners go in anything. Instead we threatened to fire him after 2016 and the fanbase started raising expectations which is good but they should also be tempered. You have to see the forest instead of the trees and most of our fanbase is looking at individual trees.

We are in a small state with Bama, Auburn, and LSU on all sides along with OM. We aren't this fairy tale that is set up perfect for success. It takes a hard nosed disciplined coach that will bust his a** on the recruiting trail and coach them up hard to win here. JOMO didn't fit that bill in terms of being hard nosed. I think Leach does and that is the most important quality IMO in a coach here. Discipline in all phases. I don't care what system he runs.

I ultimately think Leach will find a way to win here and am not ready to give up on him yet. A lot of yall really need to dig into the monetary numbers a little more and see just how behind we are in spending on the recruiting trail and with analysts/facilities. I think it will open some eyes as to the hill there to climb.

About the only advantage we have is the fact that we are in the SEC and receive SEC money.

By spending standards we should be in the bottom 1/4th of the conference every single year and really in the bottom 2-3.

Our expectations currently IMO should be 6-9 wins every season and every 4th or 5th season a shot at 10+, if the chips fall right and we win the West that is just icing on the top. Now, if we can consistently do that over say 10-15 years then we will slowly work our way up the ladder.

I've heard we have a nice rainy day slush fund ... if we aren't spending then it isn't the fans fault

[Jarius]

No coach should get an extension unless they show progress and we don't have the money to pay a buyout or a pointless extension. Extension isn't happening.

Mike Leach will 100 % get an extension. You don't hamstring your coach on the recruiting trail like that. It screams "we are about to fire this guy".

[Jarius]

You think Hill leaves if he is getting the ball the way Arkansas is running the ball?

You think our OL looks the way it does running that offense?

If you had said before the season that Arkansas was more talented than us, you may have been banned; Now it?s a reality because we are running an outdated offense that teams as terrible as Vandy have figured out.

Man, it must be nice to have so many excuses ready if you are Leach;


You can't seriously believe that we struggled on offense against Vandy because they "figured out our offense"? Like, you really believe that? Please stop embarrassing yourself.

[HancockCountyDog]

Look guys, nothing is going to change until we start donating and generating revenue with the big boys.

We are out spent by everyone else in our conference on the recruiting trail and in general and most teams are outspending us by a wide margin

We are out spent when it comes to hiring analysts to help with film and gameplans

We are out raised by everyone in the conference not named Vanderbilt and Vanderbilt may but their info is private since it is a private institution.

We have a champagne taste on a beer budget. We are near dead last in donations in not just the SEC but a large swath of the power 5 teams.

Now, money doesn't always equal success and there are diminishing returns once you are spending a certain amount and bringing in a certain amount but we aren't anywhere near there yet.

We caught lightening in a bottle with Dan. He is a heck of a head coach regardless of what anyone on here may think. What he did here is out of the ordinary again, regardless of what anyone else thinks or expects that is an undisputed fact backed up by 100 years of football.

We should have done everything we could to keep him as you don't let winners go in anything. Instead we threatened to fire him after 2016 and the fanbase started raising expectations which is good but they should also be tempered. You have to see the forest instead of the trees and most of our fanbase is looking at individual trees.

We are in a small state with Bama, Auburn, and LSU on all sides along with OM. We aren't this fairy tale that is set up perfect for success. It takes a hard nosed disciplined coach that will bust his a** on the recruiting trail and coach them up hard to win here. JOMO didn't fit that bill in terms of being hard nosed. I think Leach does and that is the most important quality IMO in a coach here. Discipline in all phases. I don't care what system he runs.

I ultimately think Leach will find a way to win here and am not ready to give up on him yet. A lot of yall really need to dig into the monetary numbers a little more and see just how behind we are in spending on the recruiting trail and with analysts/facilities. I think it will open some eyes as to the hill there to climb.

About the only advantage we have is the fact that we are in the SEC and receive SEC money.

By spending standards we should be in the bottom 1/4th of the conference every single year and really in the bottom 2-3.

Our expectations currently IMO should be 6-9 wins every season and every 4th or 5th season a shot at 10+, if the chips fall right and we win the West that is just icing on the top. Now, if we can consistently do that over say 10-15 years then we will slowly work our way up the ladder.

All of these points have nothing to do with the fact that we can't beat a 3-8 defense with any level of certainty at this point. Imagine if Leach had decided to not call a timeout before time ran out? Would any of the things you just mention bare at all on his coaching blunder? Of course not.

He is getting paid 5 million a year. That is not pocket change, even in the SEC. He simply needs to be judged on the product he has put on the field. The rest of this is just noise.

[LC Dawg]

In regards to extensions on coaches contracts I wonder if we make under the table promises to extend coaches because other states can offer longer contracts.

The amount of money made by coaches and the way their contracts are set up is one reason I think people may not return to spending all the money required to attend SEC football games. I get real frustrated by how much coaches are rewarded even if they fail.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I've heard we have a nice rainy day slush fund ... if we aren't spending then it isn't the fans fault

It's been a long standing rumor that the "slush fund" you talk about was provided by Leo Seal and it's specifically earmarked for hiring and firing coaches. Probably no way to actually prove it though

[FISHDAWG]

It's been a long standing rumor that the "slush fund" you talk about was provided by Leo Seal and it's specifically earmarked for hiring and firing coaches. Probably no way to actually prove it though

Cohen himself said we were in good shape with the fund so it was no rumor ... don't know about any of the money being earmarked for specific purposes

[Extendedcab]

But hasn't our fanbase always been that way? I know that people were calling for Jackie to be fired in '95 and '96 so we could hire Bobby Wallace. We had people on here wanting to fire Mullen and bring in Hud during the '13 season.

Now, the flip side of that is that we actually have been incredibly patient from the university side and have given our coaches time - Felker and Croom were both given 5 seasons; only JoMo was cut short (and I will ALWAYS think that was the right move).

If our fans are impatient it is because, every since I was a kid anyway - I'm 62, we have never been consistent in winning and we have never won a SEC title or a NATTY. We are tired of losing for the most part and being an "also ran". I hate that frigging term! We are most of the time bottom of the SEC or middle at best, seldom in my years anyway have we been in the top tier of the SEC or even nationally. Other "elite schools", those who consistently win, look down at us even when we have a great year, by our standards, as though we do not belong there for whatever reason. Bunch of arrogant snobs!

It is hard on the fans when we lose. I hear the coaches and players take it harder but I do wonder if that is true, or maybe it is but in a different way, simply because they have within their power the ability to change tactics in a game or the effort or the toughness or mentality or whatever! We as fans can not! We sit by and watch a pitiful performance and it is very hard to do. Especially when a coach seems blind to the fact that something has to change or we will lose the rest of our games. Every game so far has been the same offensively except for maybe a shuffle in the backfield before the snap or an inside WR screen. Leach has to start thinking outside the box and learn from past mistakes. Other professions do, we learn, perform root cause analysis and correct previous tactics. Why can't Leach? With current players, he is not wining for various reasons that have been expressed in other threads. I would rather NOT watch as I feel sorry for both the team and fans alike.

This is hard to watch! I am trying my best to be patient but the older I get, the less patient I become with people that cannot or will not learn!

[R2Dawg]

Cohen himself said we were in good shape with the fund so it was no rumor ... don't know about any of the money being earmarked for specific purposes

Well there will be no need for stadium expansion for a while. Be lucky to be half full next two years. Leach couldn't max out his bandwagon right now. One positive from Covid, it will not show our pathetic true program condition.

[confucius say]

Well there will be no need for stadium expansion for a while. Be lucky to be half full next two years. Leach couldn't max out his bandwagon right now. One positive from Covid, it will not show our pathetic true program condition.

How much would it cost to take out the bleachers and add chairback everywhere in lower bowl, decreasing attendance to probably 55k?

[Bothrops]

How much would it cost to take out the bleachers and add chairback everywhere in lower bowl, decreasing attendance to probably 55k?

Why would you want to reduce the strength of the home crowd?

[Turfdawg67]

We had prominent posters on here tell us dan should have been gone in 2016. That we would look bad to fire him, but our best option was for him to leave on his own.

Well I'm no prominent poster, but the response to this has been told over and over. I didn't agree then, but I certainly do now. It wasn't that Mullen should've been fired for being a bad coach... it was because he sh*t the bed against teams he should've beaten, namely Ole Miss, due to his seeking a new job. For that alone, 17 him... he was looking at Maryland for Heaven's sake. Move on.

[Coach34]

Mike Leach will 100 % get an extension. You don't hamstring your coach on the recruiting trail like that. It screams "we are about to fire this guy".

It's one thing to extend the contract- thats fine. But the buyout should not increase with it. That is earned. We would be moronic to extend the buyout

[HancockCountyDog]

You can't seriously believe that we struggled on offense against Vandy because they "figured out our offense"? Like, you really believe that? Please stop embarrassing yourself.

I believe we struggled against Vandy because we run an outdated offense that every competent DC in the SEC has figured out.

What is your reason? That we didn't have enough starters on the OL? Really? That is why Vandy - quite possibly the worst team in SEC history with only 55 players held our team to around 250 yards of offense?

Quit embarrassing yourself.

[Cowbell]

Mike Leach will 100 % get an extension. You don't hamstring your coach on the recruiting trail like that. It screams "we are about to fire this guy".

No it doesn't

[Cowbell]

You can't seriously believe that we struggled on offense against Vandy because they "figured out our offense"? Like, you really believe that? Please stop embarrassing yourself.

I think everyone besides Bo Pelini has this offense figured out at this point in the game.

[Coach34]

I think everyone besides Bo Pelini has this offense figured out at this point in the game.

Hahahaha- how bad does he want a do-over?

[Jarius]

I believe we struggled against Vandy because we run an outdated offense that every competent DC in the SEC has figured out.

What is your reason? That we didn't have enough starters on the OL? Really? That is why Vandy - quite possibly the worst team in SEC history with only 55 players held our team to around 250 yards of offense?

Quit embarrassing yourself.

Lord have mercy guy. You think everyone in America didn’t try drop 8 on Leach before this year? Do you honestly think he is facing a different defense right now than he has faced the past 20 years? Do you really think that his teams at Texas Tech or Washington State could not put up a shit ton of yards and points on the Vanderbilt defense we played last weekend? We suck right now because we have 4 years worth of players on our roster recruited to a run heavy scheme on top of no spring training during a total offensive Overhaul. We may never be great but we are awful because of those reasons. Thinking the system has been figured out so well that garbage teams like Vandy can now stop it with garbage athletes every year is probably the absolute dumbest take on this site, and that is saying something.

[Jarius]

I think everyone besides Bo Pelini has this offense figured out at this point in the game.

They have this year’s MSU offense figured out. They don’t have this offensive system figured out. That is an insane take. When Vandy is stopping you running the same thing teams have tried and failed to stop you with for 20 years it is players and reps.

[Jarius]

No it doesn't

How much money do you want to bet that Mike Leach gets extended to 4 years?

[Jarius]

It's one thing to extend the contract- thats fine. But the buyout should not increase with it. That is earned. We would be moronic to extend the buyout

Agree completely.

[confucius say]

Lord have mercy guy. You think everyone in America didn’t try drop 8 on Leach before this year? Do you honestly think he is facing a different defense right now than he has faced the past 20 years? Do you really think that his teams at Texas Tech or Washington State could not put up a shit ton of yards and points on the Vanderbilt defense we played last weekend? We suck right now because we have 4 years worth of players on our roster recruited to a run heavy scheme on top of no spring training during a total offensive Overhaul. We may never be great but we are awful because of those reasons. Thinking the system has been figured out so well that garbage teams like Vandy can now stop it with garbage athletes every year is probably the absolute dumbest take on this site, and that is saying something.

I heard someone else making a similar argument. Basically saying that it is not that the offense won't work in the sec. if that were the case, it would have failed against real sec teams like Bama and Aggie but worked against sucky defenses like vandy, and to a lesser extent ark and ky. It's not like vandy a defense is any better than pac 12 defenses. That does lend credence to the idea that it is not the system, at least not right now.

[Todd4State]

I heard someone else making a similar argument. Basically saying that it is not that the offense won't work in the sec. if that were the case, it would have failed against real sec teams like Bama and Aggie but worked against sucky defenses like vandy, and to a lesser extent ark and ky. It's not like vandy a defense is any better than pac 12 defenses. That does lend credence to the idea that it is not the system, at least not right now.

That's correct and unfortunately it is going to take time to get those players in. That's the case for any coach unless we just hire someone that runs a very similar or the same system as the previous. Even then it's likely to be a struggle unless the previous coach was hired away because odds are the last coach was fired. The silver lining for us is we are playing a lot of young players like Cross, Dollar Bill, Rogers, Marks, etc. that are basically getting a free year eligibility wise which means that they will have more reps and we could have them a little longer than normal.

One of the biggest issues I see is we need to find a way to develop a deep passing game. I think it's a symptom of having an inexperienced and/or not confident QB and not having a WR who is a consistent deep threat that we can rely on to get a catch even 15 yards down field. Although I think Heath may be emerging as that guy. I think we also need to find a way to add more wheel routes in. If I remember correctly one of the plays that kind of kick started our offense against LSU was a wheel route to Kylin that we busted for a TD. Our screen game has also been atrocious because of poor blocking by the receivers and o-linemen not being able to get into their area to block a defender. I thought that was better against Vanderbilt- but probably mostly because it was Vanderbilt.

Some of these things have been issues for awhile now for us- going back to Dan even.

I think we're recruiting the types of players we need to run this system though. I'm not too concerned about the overall class ranking especially in a down year for the state. Having a four star QB and two four star WR's including a true slot guy tells me that we're on the right track there. The problem is those guys will be freshmen next year so they're going to need time to develop as well- and they'll be about where Marks, Walley, and Tulu are right now.

[FISHDAWG]

You can't seriously believe that we struggled on offense against Vandy because they "figured out our offense"? Like, you really believe that? Please stop embarrassing yourself.

it took 5 Vandy turnovers for us to beat them and I also believed they outgained us ...Everyone has figured out this offense

[FISHDAWG]

Whether or not Leach "should" get an extension, there is a 100% chance he will. Croom, Ray, and Moorhead got full extensions every year, and it was the right call. It would tank recruiting, coach retention, and fan support for the AD to so publicly disbelieve in our coach like that.

Mullen who was possibly our best coach ever didn't get the extension one year during his career here ... no extension was a way of sending a message to Mullen that year and most everyone here agreed with the move

[StarkVegasSteve]

Mullen who was possibly our best coach ever didn't get the extension one year during his career here ... no extension was a way of sending a message to Mullen that year and most everyone here agreed with the move

Yes and that message was sent after job hunting in 15 . He was not extended after his 7th season here and was extended after a 6-7 8th season and would've been extended after his 9th had he stayed. You can't hamstring a coach after his first year by not extending him. That's telling players that he's currently recruiting that the university doesn't believe in his ability to turn it around. So if I'm a recruit why the heck would I think any differently. It's different when the culture is built already and you have a bad season. We'll extend him but the buyout won't change.

[Mobile Bay]

Lord have mercy guy. You think everyone in America didn’t try drop 8 on Leach before this year? Do you honestly think he is facing a different defense right now than he has faced the past 20 years? Do you really think that his teams at Texas Tech or Washington State could not put up a shit ton of yards and points on the Vanderbilt defense we played last weekend? We suck right now because we have 4 years worth of players on our roster recruited to a run heavy scheme on top of no spring training during a total offensive Overhaul. We may never be great but we are awful because of those reasons. Thinking the system has been figured out so well that garbage teams like Vandy can now stop it with garbage athletes every year is probably the absolute dumbest take on this site, and that is saying something.

Thank you for being a voice of reason on here.

[MedDawg]

Lord have mercy guy. You think everyone in America didn?t try drop 8 on Leach before this year? Do you honestly think he is facing a different defense right now than he has faced the past 20 years? Do you really think that his teams at Texas Tech or Washington State could not put up a shit ton of yards and points on the Vanderbilt defense we played last weekend? We suck right now because we have 4 years worth of players on our roster recruited to a run heavy scheme on top of no spring training during a total offensive Overhaul. We may never be great but we are awful because of those reasons. Thinking the system has been figured out so well that garbage teams like Vandy can now stop it with garbage athletes every year is probably the absolute dumbest take on this site, and that is saying something.

If his offense is so outdated, how did he win 11 games just two years ago? He beat Oregon by 14, won at Stanford, and lost at USC by only 3 points. Those Pac-12 coaches had already faced Leach for years.

[defiantdog]

If his offense is so outdated, how did he win 11 games just two years ago? He beat Oregon by 14, won at Stanford, and lost at USC by only 3 points. Those Pac-12 coaches had already faced Leach for years.
It's not outdated..... once the players get a grasp of the offense, they'll be able to move the ball faster and keep the defense on their heals. Getting to the LOS faster and snapping the ball will confuse defenses in zone assignments and open up for bigger plays. It'll happen..... it just sucks right now.

[Jarius]

it took 5 Vandy turnovers for us to beat them and I also believed they outgained us ...Everyone has figured out this offense

Everyone has been running the same defense Leach is facing right now for 20 years. They have figured out that this particular team can’t beat drop 8 coverage. That plan will not work long term against Leach and there are 20 years of proof to back that up. If you think differently you don’t know what you are talking about.

[Jarius]

If his offense is so outdated, how did he win 11 games just two years ago? He beat Oregon by 14, won at Stanford, and lost at USC by only 3 points. Those Pac-12 coaches had already faced Leach for years.

You are correct. We have a lot of fans that are mad and justifiably so but they are truly letting their ignorance shine right now.

[FISHDAWG]

Everyone has been running the same defense Leach is facing right now for 20 years. They have figured out that this particular team can?t beat drop 8 coverage. That plan will not work long term against Leach and there are 20 years of proof to back that up. If you think differently you don?t know what you are talking about.

if this particular team can't beat the drop 8 coverage then why does Leach use the same old game plan ?

[HancockCountyDog]

Lord have mercy guy. You think everyone in America didn?t try drop 8 on Leach before this year? Do you honestly think he is facing a different defense right now than he has faced the past 20 years? Do you really think that his teams at Texas Tech or Washington State could not put up a shit ton of yards and points on the Vanderbilt defense we played last weekend? We suck right now because we have 4 years worth of players on our roster recruited to a run heavy scheme on top of no spring training during a total offensive Overhaul. We may never be great but we are awful because of those reasons. Thinking the system has been figured out so well that garbage teams like Vandy can now stop it with garbage athletes every year is probably the absolute dumbest take on this site, and that is saying something.

Pick the ****ing game that they did. I've watched over 15 WSU games and probably 10 TT and no one tried it until Washington and no one has copied it until this year.

Seriously - tell me the game and i'll pull up highlights or the actual game.

Here is a pro tip - Defensive coordinators are ****ing stubborn as hell. Don't believe me, ask LSU Fans right now.

Why do you think Washington was so successful against him and everyone else wasn't? Because they decided to drop 8 pretty much the entire game. Other teams couldn't do it because their talent was so terrible, but in the SEC even Vandy has NFL players on defense. Well, not this year's Vandy but most years Vandy has a few NFL players on defense.

So instead of spouting bullshit with no facts to support it - point me to a game that the other team played the 3-8 the majority of the game that wasn't Washington, Arkansas, Kentucky and A&M.

Youtube is great, so this shouldn't take long. I'll wait for the game.

[HancockCountyDog]

Everyone has been running the same defense Leach is facing right now for 20 years. They have figured out that this particular team can’t beat drop 8 coverage. That plan will not work long term against Leach and there are 20 years of proof to back that up. If you think differently you don’t know what you are talking about.

This is simply false. I can show you as many games as you want where USC and Oregon would blitz, rush 4 and 5. Let me know and I'll pull up the games. This is simply false.

[HancockCountyDog]

If his offense is so outdated, how did he win 11 games just two years ago? He beat Oregon by 14, won at Stanford, and lost at USC by only 3 points. Those Pac-12 coaches had already faced Leach for years.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmUAZRWFuVM&t=567s

Go tell me how many times USC dropped 8.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkkZkDdUA9A

Go tell me how many times Oregon dropped 8.

I'm not lying to y'all, teams kept bringing 4 and 5. Peterson's DC figured it out. No one copied him until this year. Probably because the UW's DC was talking about how easy Leach was to defend and it caught people's attention.

[Jarius]

This is simply false. I can show you as many games as you want where USC and Oregon would blitz, rush 4 and 5. Let me know and I'll pull up the games. This is simply false.

If you think this is the first time Leach has faced drop 8 you are a god damn idiot. Oregon ran it almost exclusively during many games against Leach. Multiple teams ran it and he beat it more times than not.

[HancockCountyDog]

If you think this is the first time Leach has faced drop 8 you are a god damn idiot. Oregon ran it almost exclusively.

Do i actually have to go play by play in the video above? Did you watch the damn film? Watch the film above and then come on here and say Oregon dropped 8 every time so I know you are a liar and I can simply ignore you.

[Percho]

I am going to ask one more time. Running the very same plays we have run to date this year, how many points do you believe Leach would score if he were coaching Alabama's players against the teams we have played? What about the drop eights? How much more time would the QB have to throw the ball?

Just flip the talent level and tell me what you think?

[Percho]

The truth is we would maybe be undefeated yet by thin margins and there would be moaning and groaning.

[HancockCountyDog]

I am going to ask one more time. Running the very same plays we have run to date this year, how many points do you believe Leach would score if he were coaching Alabama's players against the teams we have played? What about the drop eights? How much more time would the QB have to throw the ball?

Just flip the talent level and tell me what you think?

If that is what it will take to have Leach win at MSU, than we have made a mistake somewhere. No one is upset that we can't beat Bama. I'm concerned that we can't move the ball against A&M, Kentucky, Vandy and Arkansas.

[Jarius]

Do i actually have to go play by play in the video above? Did you watch the damn film? Watch the film above and then come on here and say Oregon dropped 8 every time so I know you are a liar and I can simply ignore you.

No, dumbass you don’t. In some games they did not because it was obviously not working. It rarely worked against his offense, so it was rarely used on a large scale. Oregon used it many times as Leach has said himself (And he constantly beat it). When it did work, teams kept running it. This isn’t hard.

[FISHDAWG]

Pick the ****ing game that they did. I've watched over 15 WSU games and probably 10 TT and no one tried it until Washington and no one has copied it until this year.

Seriously - tell me the game and i'll pull up highlights or the actual game.

Here is a pro tip - Defensive coordinators are ****ing stubborn as hell. Don't believe me, ask LSU Fans right now.

Why do you think Washington was so successful against him and everyone else wasn't? Because they decided to drop 8 pretty much the entire game. Other teams couldn't do it because their talent was so terrible, but in the SEC even Vandy has NFL players on defense. Well, not this year's Vandy but most years Vandy has a few NFL players on defense.

So instead of spouting bullshit with no facts to support it - point me to a game that the other team played the 3-8 the majority of the game that wasn't Washington, Arkansas, Kentucky and A&M.

Youtube is great, so this shouldn't take long. I'll wait for the game.

wished I could rep this .... most folks here only know what they have heard and take it for gospel without fact checking.... I knew who Leach was and what he's about and still support him even tho I (like many) have doubts ... I (like many here) believe he should get 3 years at minimum ... I (like a few here) don't think he's going to succeed with his current format as it is but just because a few of us aren't yet sold on his offense doesn't make us idiots or doesn't mean we don't know what we are talking about ... HE needs to show us that he can compete against it and don't tell me we don't have the athletes to compete when we have seen the last many years that we DO have the athletes to compete

[Jarius]

wished I could rep this .... most folks here only know what they have heard and take it for gospel without fact checking.... I knew who Leach was and what he's about and still support him even tho I (like many) have doubts ... I (like many here) believe he should get 3 years at minimum ... I (like a few here) don't think he's going to succeed with his current format as it is but just because a few of us aren't yet sold on his offense doesn't make us idiots or doesn't mean we don't know what we are talking about ... HE needs to show us that he can compete against it and don't tell me we don't have the athletes to compete when we have seen the last many years that we DO have the athletes to compete

Go ahead and rep his ignorance. Watch this video which is literally the first one I pulled up. 34 of the 48 points scored by Washington State were against drop 8 coverage and when they were not in drop 8 they were largely only bringing 4, which is also what we have seen and struggled with this year.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMd0n2_V5Y

[basedog]

Vandy didn't drop 8 to defend? The past is not interesting to what the present is at the moment. Being stubborn and not making offensive adjustments is the problem. I'm not for firing Leach this year and not next year, I just don't see him being at Msu after 4 years.

HailState, I can't wait till he gets his players and we can have spring practice****

[FISHDAWG]

Go ahead and rep his ignorance. Watch this video which is literally the first one I pulled up. 34 of the 48 points scored by Washington State were against drop 8 coverage and when they were not in drop 8 they were largely only bringing 4, which is also what we have seen and struggled with this year.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMd0n2_V5Y

I only watched two offensive series ... I saw a few 3 man fronts mixed in with mostly 4 man fronts ... occasionally the DE would drop back at the snap. On the second series I saw 4 man fronts almost exclusively .... I saw more much more 4 man than 3 man lines ... you would have thought he would have an answer to it by now

[Jarius]

I only watched two offensive series ... I saw a few 3 man fronts mixed in with mostly 4 man fronts ... occasionally the DE would drop back at the snap. On the second series I saw 4 man fronts almost exclusively .... I saw more much more 4 man than 3 man lines ... you would have thought he would have an answer to it by now

Almost every score was off the drop 8. That’s why they were not running it. Just watched the 2016 game. They did the same thing. When Oregon dropped 8 Faulk had about 15 seconds to throw the ball, and he either threw the ball to the open man or took off and picked up 7 yards. That coverage works when you can get pressure with your front 3 or 4, but most teams could not and it was too easy for Leach to attack. It is just amazingly arrogant to think that people on this board know more than defensive coordinators who have faced leach for 20 years. Not just some of them, but literally all of them.

[Todd4State]

Almost every score was off the drop 8. That’s why they were not running it. Just watched the 2016 game. They did the same thing. When Oregon dropped 8 Faulk had about 15 seconds to throw the ball, and he either threw the ball to the open man or took off and picked up 7 yards. That coverage works when you can get pressure with your front 3 or 4, but most teams could not and it was too easy for Leach to attack. It is just amazingly arrogant to think that people on this board know more than defensive coordinators who have faced leach for 20 years. Not just some of them, but literally all of them.

I think that is what is going to happen to us going forward. Teams are going to try to drop eight to start and stay with it if it doesn't work. If it doesn't they'll try to disguise it like Vandy did. If that doesn't work they'll try to bring pressure. We know how people are going to attack us- which is a huge advantage for us in the long run. We just have to teach our players to adapt and bring in players that can defeat it.

[HancockCountyDog]

No, dumbass you don?t. In some games they did not because it was obviously not working. It rarely worked against his offense, so it was rarely used on a large scale. Oregon used it many times as Leach has said himself (And he constantly beat it). When it did work, teams kept running it. This isn?t hard.

Show me the game where they did - what year - give me the year and i'll pull up the game.

I thought you said Leach had beaten the 3-8, but now you are saying that he was so successful against it, teams stopped running it? Show me the game where he tore up the 3-8. Just one damn game. I'll wait.

It worked for Washington the last several years to the point the Washington players were laughing about how they knew what was coming;

[Percho]

We could be 4-2 right now instead of being 2-4 by squeaking out 2 not turning over the ball and you all would still be unhappy because we look like crap on offence.

How many coaching hours has Leach had trying to teach this offense which requires many reps to master?

If the defense were as bad as many thought it would be we would be ofer!

Thank God we have two wins.

[Jarius]

Show me the game where they did - what year - give me the year and i'll pull up the game.

I thought you said Leach had beaten the 3-8, but now you are saying that he was so successful against it, teams stopped running it? Show me the game where he tore up the 3-8. Just one damn game. I'll wait.

It worked for Washington the last several years to the point the Washington players were laughing about how they knew what was coming;

I just posted a video where his offense scored 34 points on the drop 8 and 48 points total (the remainder were field goals and Oregon rushing 4). You continue to double down on stupid. People ran it against him virtually every single game. He beats it and they get out of it. Oregon drops 8 (and 7 which is what we see every week) and got roasted almost every time they played Leach. Go watch the 2016 game. They rushed 3 or 4 the entire first half and gave up 28 and then started blitzing in the second half. I’m not going to spend my entire day watching film to continue to prove your dumbassery.

[HancockCountyDog]

I only watched two offensive series ... I saw a few 3 man fronts mixed in with mostly 4 man fronts ... occasionally the DE would drop back at the snap. On the second series I saw 4 man fronts almost exclusively .... I saw more much more 4 man than 3 man lines ... you would have thought he would have an answer to it by now

They rush 4 pretty much the whole game. They do drop 8 some, but comparing what we have seen and what Washington has done, is just laughable. We are seeing 3-8 close to 80% of the time and we can't solve it. Same way he couldn't solve it against Washington.

Show me the game where he has solved the 3-8 that we have seen?

I'll be waiting a while;

[Jarius]

They rush 4 pretty much the whole game. They do drop 8 some, but comparing what we have seen and what Washington has done, is just laughable. We are seeing 3-8 close to 80% of the time and we can't solve it. Same way he couldn't solve it against Washington.

Show me the game where he has solved the 3-8 that we have seen?

I'll be waiting a while;

They rushed 3 enough to give up 34 points against that exact look in 1 game. A Lot of times it looked like they were coming with 4 and the edge backed off into the flat with the tailback. The reason you don’t see past people running drop 8 80 % of the time is because they were not stupid enough to keep running a coverage that did not work. So yea, the few teams that ran it the entire game succeeded. There is no reason to change if you do not have to. We are also not having any more success when teams rush 4 instead of 3 so this is a moot point. How on earth does this have to be explained to you?

[FISHDAWG]

They rush 4 pretty much the whole game. They do drop 8 some, but comparing what we have seen and what Washington has done, is just laughable. We are seeing 3-8 close to 80% of the time and we can't solve it. Same way he couldn't solve it against Washington.

Show me the game where he has solved the 3-8 that we have seen?

I'll be waiting a while;

I think you might have meant this for the Bennie Brown Know-it-All... I was saying the same thing

[StarkVegasSteve]

Look I don't give a rat's ass what he did at Washington St. or TTU. I don't care if they blitzed 8, dropped 8, or dropped 11. That's all in the past and there's a reason why those kids weren't at Bama, LSU, UGA, UF, etc. All that matters is what he's doing here and now. And right now we can't move the ball, we can't block 3 with 5, and on the rare occasion we can actually do that our receivers and QB aren't on the same page about 60% of the time. We have MASSIVE problems that aren't an overnight fix. And I'll be honest I don't know if there is a fix to it. The next two years will be the telltale sign of that. By Year 3, and honestly the end of Year 2, if we're still having the same problems then a new AD will probably be having a very tough conversation with Mike Leach. I say new AD because Cohen will be the first to go if this thing continues to go south.

[HancockCountyDog]

I just posted a video where his offense scored 34 points on the drop 8 and 48 points total (the remainder were field goals and Oregon rushing 4). You continue to double down on stupid. People ran it against him virtually every single game. He beats it and they get out of it. Oregon drops 8 (and 7 which is what we see every week) and got roasted almost every time they played Leach. Go watch the 2016 game. They rushed 3 or 4 the entire first half and gave up 28 and then started blitzing in the second half. I?m not going to spend my entire day watching film to continue to prove your dumbassery.

Ok - I just went and watched the first half of the video that you posted the 2015 WSU/Oregon game.

Oregon rushed 3 men 9 times.

Oregon rushed 4 men 30 times.

Your point about us seeing teams drop 7 against us is just a lie. Do i actually need to post the Kentucky and Arkansas game film? Really?

Show me the game where the defense dropped 8 and rushed 3 the majority of the game, like Washington, Arkansas, and Kentucky and how Leach tore it up. I'm waiting;

[HancockCountyDog]

I think you might have meant this for the Bennie Brown Know-it-All... I was saying the same thing

My bad - I just hate when people flat out lie. WSU only faced the 3-8 in the PAC 12 in the Apple Cup;

Here is what it looks like - look familiar to anyone?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPUFaJtI6mM

I mean seriously - watch this video and tell me we aren't seeing the exact same defense, every damn week;

I mean the 4th and 1 play calls even look identical;

[Jarius]

Ok - I just went and watched the first half of the video that you posted the 2015 WSU/Oregon game.

Oregon rushed 3 men 9 times.

Oregon rushed 4 men 30 times.

Your point about us seeing teams drop 7 against us is just a lie. Do i actually need to post the Kentucky and Arkansas game film? Really?

Show me the game where the defense dropped 8 and rushed 3 the majority of the game, like Washington, Arkansas, and Kentucky and how Leach tore it up. I'm waiting;


I can’t post one because when they give up 34 points in one game off of the same look they generally don’t continue to use that look. You can keep spouting the same ignorance and I’m going to keep telling you the same thing. People don’t Generally continue to Run the same thing when you torch them against that look. Arizona tried to drop 8 some and they got their ass lit up too. Look at them against Minshew. Why on earth would you continue to do what is not working unless you are Bo Pelini?

[Jarius]

My bad - I just hate when people flat out lie. WSU only faced the 3-8 in the PAC 12 in the Apple Cup;

Here is what it looks like - look familiar to anyone?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPUFaJtI6mM

I mean seriously - watch this video and tell me we aren't seeing the exact same defense, every damn week;

I mean the 4th and 1 play calls even look identical;

They only faced it the entire game against them because that was the only defense that stopped them with that look you ****ing idiot.

[HancockCountyDog]

They only faced it the entire game against them because that was the only defense that stopped them with that look you ****ing idiot.

They were the only team that tried it the entire game - which game did they run more 3-8 than rush 4, give me one game.

The game you posted - they rushed 4 thirty times in the first half compared to rushing 3 nine times. Do i really have to do the 2016 game as well?

[Jarius]

They were the only team that tried it the entire game - which game did they run more 3-8 than rush 4, give me one game.

The game you posted - they rushed 4 thirty times in the first half compared to rushing 3 nine times. Do i really have to do the 2016 game as well?

They were the only team that tried it the entire game because they were the only team that had success with it when they ran it. If Leach would have had the same success against Washington as he did against every other team when they gave him that look they would have moved out of that look just like everyone else did. You can’t seriously be this dense. You really believe everyone had the same success as Washington did with that look and just chose not to run it.

[HancockCountyDog]

I can’t post one because when they give up 34 points in one game off of the same look they generally don’t continue to use that look. You can keep spouting the same ignorance and I’m going to keep telling you the same thing. People don’t Generally continue to Run the same thing when you torch them against that look. Arizona tried to drop 8 some and they got their ass lit up too. Look at them against Minshew. Why on earth would you continue to do what is not working unless you are Bo Pelini?

Show me the video of them tearing up the 3-8 for a quarter. Just ripping it to shreds. It doesn't exist I've looked. The only video you posted had Oregon rushing 4 thirty times as opposed to 3 nine times. Show me the game where he tore it up, when those numbers are reversed.

[HancockCountyDog]

They were the only team that tried it the entire game because they were the only team that had success with it when they ran it. If Leach would have had the same success against Washington as he did against every other team when they gave him that look they would have moved out of that look just like everyone else did. You can’t seriously be this dense.

Show me the game where he tore up the 3-8. Which team stuck with it like Washington, Kentucky, or Arkansas? Almost every game I've watched the teams rushed 4 and 5 consistently. The games I've posted clearly show that, I'm waiting for your video where he is ripping up the 3-8.

[Jarius]

I just showed you a video where they scored 34 points against that look. The only time the ran that look WSU scores a touchdown. Wtf is wrong with you?

[HancockCountyDog]

I just showed you a video where they scored 34 points against that look. The only time the ran that look WSU scores a touchdown. Wtf is wrong with you?

This is the only video you posted in this entire thread


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMd0n2_V5Y

If you have posted another - let me know.

This is the one where they rushed 4 thirty times and rushed 3 only 9 times in the first half; They continue to rush 4 in the second half; They rushed 4 the majority of the game. They rushed 3 a handful of times. Sometimes it looked exactly like us, other times they had some success, but Oregon did not commit to it. Where do you think they scored 34 points against the 3-8 in this video that you posted? I mean they almost exclusively rushed 4 guys.

If you are claiming that they were just so successful against the 3-8 that the defense was forced to rush 4, then that is simply Pelini logic. If that 2015 Oregon/WSU game is the evidence that you have that Leach has beaten the 3-8, then you simply have no idea what you are talking about - and you can have the last word.

[Jarius]

This is the only video you posted in this entire thread


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMd0n2_V5Y

If you have posted another - let me know.

This is the one where they rushed 4 thirty times and rushed 3 only 9 times in the first half; They continue to rush 4 in the second half; They rushed 4 the majority of the game. They rushed 3 a handful of times. Sometimes it looked exactly like us, other times they had some success, but Oregon did not commit to it. Where do you think they scored 34 points against the 3-8 in this video that you posted? I mean they almost exclusively rushed 4 guys.

If you are claiming that they were just so successful against the 3-8 that the defense was forced to rush 4, then that is simply Pelini logic. If that 2015 Oregon/WSU game is the evidence that you have that Leach has beaten the 3-8, then you simply have no idea what you are talking about - and you can have the last word.

On the play that WSU scored touchdowns they were facing a drop 8 look for 34 of their points. I have said this about 7 times in this thread. They only ran it the amount of times you are talking about because every time they did WSU scored a ****ing touchdown. Do I need to rearrange this post another way so you can comprehend it?

[Turfdawg67]

They were the only team that tried it the entire game because they were the only team that had success with it when they ran it. If Leach would have had the same success against Washington as he did against every other team when they gave him that look they would have moved out of that look just like everyone else did. You can’t seriously be this dense. You really believe everyone had the same success as Washington did with that look and just chose not to run it.

This is my thinking as well. If Washington shut it down for 8 straight years, surely other teams would have tried it too. It's dumb to think otherwise. And no, I'm not going to waste my time watching WSU games. Lolz

[RiverCityDawg]

On the play that WSU scored touchdowns they were facing a drop 8 look for 34 of their points. I have said this about 7 times in this thread. They only ran it the amount of times you are talking about because every time they did WSU scored a ****ing touchdown. Do I need to rearrange this post another way so you can comprehend it?

Jarius, you're doing yeoman's work here. You can explain it to folks, but you can't understand it for them.

The idea that average defenses such as Arkansas and Kentucky executed the perfect air raid beating defensive style that all the Big-12 and PAC-12 defensive coordinators either failed to consider or couldn't pull off is ridiculous. Even more so since Washington did it every year... PAC-12 DC's are just so stupid they didn't think to try it? Come on.

[Matt3467]

They were the only team that tried it the entire game - which game did they run more 3-8 than rush 4, give me one game.

The game you posted - they rushed 4 thirty times in the first half compared to rushing 3 nine times. Do i really have to do the 2016 game as well?

It's obvious to me what Jarius is saying. He's saying that teams have tried the 3-8 but it didn't work so they moved out of it. A better analysis would be to do a statistical analysis of how Leach's teams have done vs the 3-8 on a play by play basis and compare it to when not facing it. I don't feel like doing all of that work but it's obvious if the 3-8 worked like it's working this year then no team would've ever lined up in anything else.

[R2Dawg]

This is my thinking as well. If Washington shut it down for 8 straight years, surely other teams would have tried it too. It's dumb to think otherwise. And no, I'm not going to waste my time watching WSU games. Lolz

I've thought the same thing but maybe some of the other coaches are as stubborn as Leach running his scheme and would rather lose running their scheme than change.

Also Pellini was pretty dumb this year several times so yeah it is possible.

The other thing not many are mentioning in this is Pac10 don't care about D, Big12 either. SEC D is an NFL D league in itself. Air raid ain't gonna work against that kind of talent. Now mix it with some other stuff like read option and other running stuff. Yeah it can work.

[Cowbell]

Hahahaha- how bad does he want a do-over?

Boy would he. Easy win

[Homedawg]

Couple of things about the Oregon game he linked, one, they tried to play 3 man on first drive and didn't work. Two, they protected and gave him lots of time to get to multiple reads. Third, they ran it when Oregon had a 4 man front much less three. So lots of differences. None in play calls, all in execution

[Todd4State]

Couple of things about the Oregon game he linked, one, they tried to play 3 man on first drive and didn't work. Two, they protected and gave him lots of time to get to multiple reads. Third, they ran it when Oregon had a 4 man front much less three. So lots of differences. None in play calls, all in execution

Just as I suspected- I didn't watch the video. We have to get our players better at running this offense at all spots. The good news is a lot of our guys are young. By the time they are juniors and seniors they'll have it down pretty well and will have adapted to the speed of the SEC. While we also continue to bring in better talent on offense as well to help out too.

[HoopsDawg]

Boy would he. Easy win

I wonder what the score would be now.

[HoopsDawg]

I can?t post one because when they give up 34 points in one game off of the same look they generally don?t continue to use that look. You can keep spouting the same ignorance and I?m going to keep telling you the same thing. People don?t Generally continue to Run the same thing when you torch them against that look. Arizona tried to drop 8 some and they got their ass lit up too. Look at them against Minshew. Why on earth would you continue to do what is not working unless you are Bo Pelini?

It's not the same. Teams are playing 5/6 DB's against us. Arizona was dropping D-linemen in coverage some of the time.

[Homedawg]

It's not the same. Teams are playing 5/6 DB's against us. Arizona was dropping D-linemen in coverage some of the time.

It might not be the same, however, the blocking isn't the same either!! Maybe if we could run against a 3 man front, much less a 4, then maybe would could and would be better. Just maybe.

[HoopsDawg]

It might not be the same, however, the blocking isn't the same either!! Maybe if we could run against a 3 man front, much less a 4, then maybe would could and would be better. Just maybe.

I thought our O-linemen were geared to be run blockers? We can't run b/c we only have 2 running plays and our Oline splits are too wide. Defense also knows the QB run is not a threat. That's why every LB we play has a career game against us.

[Homedawg]

I thought our O-linemen were geared to be run blockers? We can't run b/c we only have 2 running plays and our Oline splits are too wide. Defense also knows the QB run is not a threat. That's why every LB we play has a career game against us.

We can't run. Splits, not knowing what to do, whatever, we can't run. We have more than 2 runs. But that's not the point and doesn't matter. I'm not defending our offense to this point. It's a joke. I making a point about games leach coached in the pacific 12. Argue away.

[HoopsDawg]

We can't run. Splits, not knowing what to do, whatever, we can't run. We have more than 2 runs. But that's not the point and doesn't matter. I'm not defending our offense to this point. It's a joke. I making a point about games leach coached in the pacific 12. Argue away.

I mean, I think we agree. Not arguing. The draw works against other defenses. It has worked for Leach his whole career. The draw doesn't work against what we are seeing.

It's very frustrating bc simple adjustments could make us much better.

[Homedawg]

I mean, I think we agree. Not arguing. The draw works against other defenses. It has worked for Leach his whole career. The draw doesn't work against what we are seeing.

It's very frustrating bc simple adjustments could make us much better.

We've run inside zone. It's stunk. The toss play, which by stats is a pass, has been ok but not great. All I'm saying is we have block better. Even when we have plays "blocked" , 5 blocking 3 the two double teams never released to the next level. If they did the 4 yard play would be 8 or 10. But it hasn't happened yet. Something needs to click.

[Matt3467]

I've thought the same thing but maybe some of the other coaches are as stubborn as Leach running his scheme and would rather lose running their scheme than change.

Also Pellini was pretty dumb this year several times so yeah it is possible.

The other thing not many are mentioning in this is Pac10 don't care about D, Big12 either. SEC D is an NFL D league in itself. Air raid ain't gonna work against that kind of talent. Now mix it with some other stuff like read option and other running stuff. Yeah it can work.

There's just as much star talent in the PAC, BIGs, and ACC as there is in the SEC.

[Homedawg]

There's just as much star talent in the PAC, BIGs, and ACC as there is in the SEC.

I'm not going to look it up to disagree, but the depth of those leagues doesn't sniff the sec. The nfl draft says your wrong every year. And the guys a step below that are better in our league. The sec is the best year in year out now question....

[HoopsDawg]

There's just as much star talent in the PAC, BIGs, and ACC as there is in the SEC.

LOLOLOL, thanks for the laugh Matt.

[Todd4State]

There's just as much star talent in the PAC, BIGs, and ACC as there is in the SEC.

The SEC has more talent but it's all relative because Leach had PAC 12 talent on his team at Washington State and Big 12 talent at Texas Tech.

[Jarius]

It's not the same. Teams are playing 5/6 DB's against us. Arizona was dropping D-linemen in coverage some of the time.

Oh ok. Go watch the 2018 Arizona game then. They tried the drop 8 with 5 db’s a good bit and gave up 69 points. The play where Gardner hit a guy 20 yards down field to get the score to 21-0 (maybe 21-7?) where he had enough time to eat a sandwich was particularly nice.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Oh ok. Go watch the 2018 Arizona game then. They tried the drop 8 with 5 db’s a good bit and gave up 69 points. The play where Gardner hit a guy 20 yards down field to get the score to 21-0 (maybe 21-7?) where he had enough time to eat a sandwich was particularly nice.

You know all these looking at highlights of WSU games is great, but there's a few glaring problems that I see that has ZILCH to do with scheme. 1. All of the games you are pulling up are 3-4+ years into the system. 2. Maybe 1 or 2 of the players playing in any of these secondaries could play in the SEC. They simply can't cover for longer than 3-4 seconds. SEC defenses can cover all day long in zone. 3. They can block 3 with 5.

Again, it's like I said earlier it's all great that this offense has worked in the past. But it's just that, IN THE PAST. What he did with Gardner Minshew, Luke Falk, Ryan Hilinski, Anthony Gordon, Graham Harrell, Kliff Kingsbury, or BJ Symons doesn't mean jack s*** in 2020 in this league. You've got to find a way to make it work here, and so far he hasn't done that.

[Matt3467]

I'm not going to look it up to disagree, but the depth of those leagues doesn't sniff the sec. The nfl draft says your wrong every year. And the guys a step below that are better in our league. The sec is the best year in year out now question....

I've said it in another thread that outside of Bama (because their recruiting and depth each year is leagues beyond any other team) it's really not that far apart. Saban has carried the SEC on his shoulders since he got here. Before him and minus him there isn't that wide of a gap.

[Jarius]

You know all these looking at highlights of WSU games is great, but there's a few glaring problems that I see that has ZILCH to do with scheme. 1. All of the games you are pulling up are 3-4+ years into the system. 2. Maybe 1 or 2 of the players playing in any of these secondaries could play in the SEC. They simply can't cover for longer than 3-4 seconds. SEC defenses can cover all day long in zone. 3. They can block 3 with 5.

Again, it's like I said earlier it's all great that this offense has worked in the past. But it's just that, IN THE PAST. What he did with Gardner Minshew, Luke Falk, Ryan Hilinski, Anthony Gordon, Graham Harrell, Kliff Kingsbury, or BJ Symons doesn't mean jack s*** in 2020 in this league. You've got to find a way to make it work here, and so far he hasn't done that.


Vandy does not have more talent On defense than anyone in the pac 12. Leach has beaten the crap out of Arkansas, Kentucky, A&M, and Vandy Level defenses for 20 years. We all wish he would adapt to his personnel until he gets what he needs but that is not going to happen. I think it is fine to be upset with him in that regard but saying he will not Ever be able to field a competent offense against most defenses in this league is extremely premature considering his history.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Vandy does not have more talent On defense than anyone in the pac 12. Leach has beaten the crap out of Arkansas, Kentucky, A&M, and Vandy Level defenses for 20 years. We all wish he would adapt to his personnel until he gets what he needs but that is not going to happen. I think it is fine to be upset with him in that regard but saying he will not Ever be able to field a competent offense against most defenses in this league is extremely premature considering his history.


Vandy may not have more talent than anyone in the Pac 12 but they have a HC who is one of the top defensive minds in the country. So he knows how to scheme people. Just like almost every DC in this league, except apparently Bo Pelini.

And look I don't think anyone is saying that he couldn't eventually do it. But we don't have 4-5 years so that he can get his people in here. He needs to start showing signs of improvement NEXT YEAR and he needs to have a 7-8 win team by Year 3. Year 4 will be his first full recruiting class as juniors and the holdovers as seniors. That needs to be the team that can score at will on people. Also it lines up perfectly that if the schedule doesn't change we would get LSU and Bama at home in that year.

[Jarius]

Vandy’s defense is ranked 83rd in the country. They had the 97th ranked defense in the country last year. He has not schemed very well, apparently. This is year 6 for him. I agree with the rest of your post. If he does not show improvement on offense by the end of next year I will be worried.

[Ari Gold]

I didnt read any of these posts so if this has been said before then just move on.. but here is my quick 2 cents ..

This isnt a pro Leach post at all but lets all hit the breaks a little..
covid, no spring, no summer, limited fall, a roster that doesnt fit his offense , a transfer QB who is hurt ( I think needs TJ I dont know that just my guess) , a shitty culture and a few that had shitty attitudes, ect.....

Now saying that I never thought a CML offense would struggle and look like this. He is going to have to look in the mirror this off season and make a few adjustments.
The bright spot is defense , where we better be offering Coach Arnett a contract extension where he basically names his price.
We have lots of guys coming back on that side of the ball, and a few commits that can fill in and play quickly and a handful of possible NFL guys .

On CML side of the ball as of now 2 WR that hopefully fit his scheme and are ready with a QB that runs this offense . Also Rogers will have one more year under his belt. That should be a good battle ..
if the 2 backs stay we are solid there, just have to use them .. thats where CML has to look in the mirror and make adjustments .

This guy has won every he has been at places as hard or harder to win than MSU.. he has put numerous SKILL guys in the league . How many skill guys have we put in the league the last 20 year?? Exactly ...

if CML announces he is retiring or moving on at years end I dont think anyone would be upset. But that isnt going to happen.. so lets see what he can do in year 2 and 3 .. He will get Skill guys here .. something we haven?t been able to do over the last 20 years .. yeah there have been a few solid guys ( Bear, Ross, Bump, J Rob, Ballard, ) but what guys have we put or stayed in the league ? Quick answer none, besides Dak.. that?s where college football is now.. its offense offense offense.. and guys that are difference makers..

Here is the bottom line
We dont fire a guy, we at least give him a few years to see what he can do with a track record like Leach. The guy won at Washington State for ****s sake.. he averaged around 8 wins at TT.. I know its the Big 12 , but it was still Texas and Oklahoma when they were winning big ..

If you are screaming for someone to be fired or replaced... You have a guy with a 20 year track record of winning, compared to a guy who is in year 4 with no previous track record of success and has made very questionable hires all over the board.
We might want to start there...

[Cowbell]

I didnt read any of these posts so if this has been said before then just move on.. but here is my quick 2 cents ..

This isnt a pro Leach post at all but lets all hit the breaks a little..
covid, no spring, no summer, limited fall, a roster that doesnt fit his offense , a transfer QB who is hurt ( I think needs TJ I dont know that just my guess) , a shitty culture and a few that had shitty attitudes, ect.....

Now saying that I never thought a CML offense would struggle and look like this. He is going to have to look in the mirror this off season and make a few adjustments.
The bright spot is defense , where we better be offering Coach Arnett a contract extension where he basically names his price.
We have lots of guys coming back on that side of the ball, and a few commits that can fill in and play quickly and a handful of possible NFL guys .

On CML side of the ball as of now 2 WR that hopefully fit his scheme and are ready with a QB that runs this offense . Also Rogers will have one more year under his belt. That should be a good battle ..
if the 2 backs stay we are solid there, just have to use them .. thats where CML has to look in the mirror and make adjustments .

This guy has won every he has been at places as hard or harder to win than MSU.. he has put numerous SKILL guys in the league . How many skill guys have we put in the league the last 20 year?? Exactly ...

if CML announces he is retiring or moving on at years end I dont think anyone would be upset. But that isnt going to happen.. so lets see what he can do in year 2 and 3 .. He will get Skill guys here .. something we haven?t been able to do over the last 20 years .. yeah there have been a few solid guys ( Bear, Ross, Bump, J Rob, Ballard, ) but what guys have we put or stayed in the league ? Quick answer none, besides Dak.. that?s where college football is now.. its offense offense offense.. and guys that are difference makers..

Here is the bottom .
We dont fire a guy or at least give him a few years to see what he can do with a track record like Leach. The guy win at Washington State for ****s sake.. he averaged around 8 wins at TT.. I know its the Big 12 , but it was still Texas and Oklahoma when they were winning big ..

If you are screaming for someone to be fired or replaced... You have a guy with a 20 year track record of winning, compared to a guy who is in year 4 with no previous track record of success and has made very questionable hires all over the board.
We might want to start there...

I gree with this. I feel like most of us just want to see adjustments. I just think that may require him making some changes that are going to be hard for him, seeing as how he hasn't made any to this point. I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt there.

[Matt3467]

I didnt read any of these posts so if this has been said before then just move on.. but here is my quick 2 cents ..

This isnt a pro Leach post at all but lets all hit the breaks a little..
covid, no spring, no summer, limited fall, a roster that doesnt fit his offense , a transfer QB who is hurt ( I think needs TJ I dont know that just my guess) , a shitty culture and a few that had shitty attitudes, ect.....

Now saying that I never thought a CML offense would struggle and look like this. He is going to have to look in the mirror this off season and make a few adjustments.
The bright spot is defense , where we better be offering Coach Arnett a contract extension where he basically names his price.
We have lots of guys coming back on that side of the ball, and a few commits that can fill in and play quickly and a handful of possible NFL guys .

On CML side of the ball as of now 2 WR that hopefully fit his scheme and are ready with a QB that runs this offense . Also Rogers will have one more year under his belt. That should be a good battle ..
if the 2 backs stay we are solid there, just have to use them .. thats where CML has to look in the mirror and make adjustments .

This guy has won every he has been at places as hard or harder to win than MSU.. he has put numerous SKILL guys in the league . How many skill guys have we put in the league the last 20 year?? Exactly ...

if CML announces he is retiring or moving on at years end I dont think anyone would be upset. But that isnt going to happen.. so lets see what he can do in year 2 and 3 .. He will get Skill guys here .. something we haven?t been able to do over the last 20 years .. yeah there have been a few solid guys ( Bear, Ross, Bump, J Rob, Ballard, ) but what guys have we put or stayed in the league ? Quick answer none, besides Dak.. that?s where college football is now.. its offense offense offense.. and guys that are difference makers..

Here is the bottom .
We dont fire a guy or at least give him a few years to see what he can do with a track record like Leach. The guy win at Washington State for ****s sake.. he averaged around 8 wins at TT.. I know its the Big 12 , but it was still Texas and Oklahoma when they were winning big ..

If you are screaming for someone to be fired or replaced... You have a guy with a 20 year track record of winning, compared to a guy who is in year 4 with no previous track record of success and has made very questionable hires all over the board.
We might want to start there...

good post

[Ari Gold]

I didnt read any of these posts so if this has been said before then just move on.. but here is my quick 2 cents ..

This isnt a pro Leach post at all but lets all hit the breaks a little..
covid, no spring, no summer, limited fall, a roster that doesnt fit his offense , a transfer QB who is hurt ( I think needs TJ I dont know that just my guess) , a shitty culture and a few that had shitty attitudes, ect.....

Now saying that I never thought a CML offense would struggle and look like this. He is going to have to look in the mirror this off season and make a few adjustments.
The bright spot is defense , where we better be offering Coach Arnett a contract extension where he basically names his price.
We have lots of guys coming back on that side of the ball, and a few commits that can fill in and play quickly and a handful of possible NFL guys .

On CML side of the ball as of now 2 WR that hopefully fit his scheme and are ready with a QB that runs this offense . Also Rogers will have one more year under his belt. That should be a good battle ..
if the 2 backs stay we are solid there, just have to use them .. thats where CML has to look in the mirror and make adjustments .

This guy has won every he has been at places as hard or harder to win than MSU.. he has put numerous SKILL guys in the league . How many skill guys have we put in the league the last 20 year?? Exactly ...

if CML announces he is retiring or moving on at years end I dont think anyone would be upset. But that isnt going to happen.. so lets see what he can do in year 2 and 3 .. He will get Skill guys here .. something we haven?t been able to do over the last 20 years .. yeah there have been a few solid guys ( Bear, Ross, Bump, J Rob, Ballard, ) but what guys have we put or stayed in the league ? Quick answer none, besides Dak.. that?s where college football is now.. its offense offense offense.. and guys that are difference makers..

Here is the bottom line
We dont fire a guy, we at least give him a few years to see what he can do with a track record like Leach. The guy won at Washington State for ****s sake.. he averaged around 8 wins at TT.. I know its the Big 12 , but it was still Texas and Oklahoma when they were winning big ..

If you are screaming for someone to be fired or replaced... You have a guy with a 20 year track record of winning, compared to a guy who is in year 4 with no previous track record of success and has made very questionable hires all over the board.
We might want to start there...

And for those saying Leach is too hard headed to change his philosophy.. maybe he will maybe he won’t.. but who would have thought 10 years ago Saban would have changed his style and philosophy

[StarkVegasSteve]

And for those saying Leach is too hard headed to change his philosophy.. maybe he will maybe he won’t.. but who would have thought 10 years ago Saban would have changed his style and philosophy

I think the difference is there that Saban was never married to an offensive scheme due to him being a defensive coach. He knew pounding the ball between the tackles had worked for years and he had been successful with it at previous stops. He clearly saw the game passing him by and made the change. And he had been implementing parts of the spread since 2010.

Leach on the other hand is the "offensive guru" and has only ever ran one system and he's never added any variables to it. Same system for 30 years. The variables have been added by guys on the Leach coaching tree, but he's only ever ran the pure air raid. The pure air raid is all he's ever known. Personally I don't think he's ever going to change and that's why he will fail. However, I sure as hell hope I'm wrong. Like you said, never say never.

[Percho]

I think the difference is there that Saban was never married to an offensive scheme due to him being a defensive coach. He knew pounding the ball between the tackles had worked for years and he had been successful with it at previous stops. He clearly saw the game passing him by and made the change. And he had been implementing parts of the spread since 2010.

Leach on the other hand is the "offensive guru" and has only ever ran one system and he's never added any variables to it. Same system for 30 years. The variables have been added by guys on the Leach coaching tree, but he's only ever ran the pure air raid. The pure air raid is all he's ever known. Personally I don't think he's ever going to change and that's why he will fail. However, I sure as hell hope I'm wrong. Like you said, never say never.

What is the average number of running plays per game do you need, for it not to be the pure air raid?

Careful I'm going to check the history.

[StarkVegasSteve]

What is the average number of running plays per game do you need, for it not to be the pure air raid?

Careful I'm going to check the history.

Well played sir.

To answer the question though I'd say probably anywhere between 30-35 true runs would not be pure air raid. Looking at the stats it looks like Leach wants to run between 75-80 plays a ball game so I know it's a pipe dream to think we'd ever get a 50/50 split but I don't think a 60/40 or even 65/35 split is asking too much. Especially if that's what the defense is giving you. I mean I know he'll never do it but if he'd add in just a couple of zone read/RPO type plays to at least keep the D honest I think we'd at least be able to consistently move it.

[HoopsDawg]

What is the average number of running plays per game do you need, for it not to be the pure air raid?

Careful I'm going to check the history.

This year we are no. 1 in the country in passing plays per game at 77.43%. No. 2 in the country is La Monroe at only 65.05%. That is unreal and frankly ridiculous.

There is no set number of running plays needed. Lincoln Riley uses air raid principles but runs it 51% of the time.

[Homedawg]

This year we are no. 1 in the country in passing plays per game at 77.43%. No. 2 in the country is La Monroe at only 65.05%. That is unreal and frankly ridiculous.

There is no set number of running plays needed. Lincoln Riley uses air raid principles but runs it 51% of the time.

Only cb they count sacks as runs. It's a higher percentage of passes than that when you factor that in.

[Sienfield]

Only cb they count sacks as runs. It's a higher percentage of passes than that when you factor that in.

True, but that applies to every team. Every team's passing percentage would go up if the sacks were eliminated (except those without sacks).

[MedDawg]

Here is the bottom line
We dont fire a guy, we at least give him a few years to see what he can do with a track record like Leach. The guy won at Washington State for ****s sake.. he averaged around 8 wins at TT.. I know its the Big 12 , but it was still Texas and Oklahoma when they were winning big ..

If you are screaming for someone to be fired or replaced... You have a guy with a 20 year track record of winning, compared to a guy who is in year 4 with no previous track record of success and has made very questionable hires all over the board.
We might want to start there...

Wait. Who is that coach?

Oh. Cohen? I disagree. Every single hire has generally been seen as a good hire at the time by sports journalists and other coaches. Even Cann and Moorhead.

[bulldawg28]

Well played sir.

To answer the question though I'd say probably anywhere between 30-35 true runs would not be pure air raid. Looking at the stats it looks like Leach wants to run between 75-80 plays a ball game so I know it's a pipe dream to think we'd ever get a 50/50 split but I don't think a 60/40 or even 65/35 split is asking too much. Especially if that's what the defense is giving you. I mean I know he'll never do it but if he'd add in just a couple of zone read/RPO type plays to at least keep the D honest I think we'd at least be able to consistently move it.

35% runs with those types of runs gives us 2 more wins this year

[dawgday166]

I didnt read any of these posts so if this has been said before then just move on.. but here is my quick 2 cents ..

This isnt a pro Leach post at all but lets all hit the breaks a little..
covid, no spring, no summer, limited fall, a roster that doesnt fit his offense , a transfer QB who is hurt ( I think needs TJ I dont know that just my guess) , a shitty culture and a few that had shitty attitudes, ect.....

Now saying that I never thought a CML offense would struggle and look like this. He is going to have to look in the mirror this off season and make a few adjustments.
The bright spot is defense , where we better be offering Coach Arnett a contract extension where he basically names his price.
We have lots of guys coming back on that side of the ball, and a few commits that can fill in and play quickly and a handful of possible NFL guys .

On CML side of the ball as of now 2 WR that hopefully fit his scheme and are ready with a QB that runs this offense . Also Rogers will have one more year under his belt. That should be a good battle ..
if the 2 backs stay we are solid there, just have to use them .. thats where CML has to look in the mirror and make adjustments .

This guy has won every he has been at places as hard or harder to win than MSU.. he has put numerous SKILL guys in the league . How many skill guys have we put in the league the last 20 year?? Exactly ...

if CML announces he is retiring or moving on at years end I dont think anyone would be upset. But that isnt going to happen.. so lets see what he can do in year 2 and 3 .. He will get Skill guys here .. something we haven?t been able to do over the last 20 years .. yeah there have been a few solid guys ( Bear, Ross, Bump, J Rob, Ballard, ) but what guys have we put or stayed in the league ? Quick answer none, besides Dak.. that?s where college football is now.. its offense offense offense.. and guys that are difference makers..

Here is the bottom line
We dont fire a guy, we at least give him a few years to see what he can do with a track record like Leach. The guy won at Washington State for ****s sake.. he averaged around 8 wins at TT.. I know its the Big 12 , but it was still Texas and Oklahoma when they were winning big ..

If you are screaming for someone to be fired or replaced... You have a guy with a 20 year track record of winning, compared to a guy who is in year 4 with no previous track record of success and has made very questionable hires all over the board.
We might want to start there...


And for those saying Leach is too hard headed to change his philosophy.. maybe he will maybe he won’t.. but who would have thought 10 years ago Saban would have changed his style and philosophy

Good posts. Leach ain't JoMo.

[Dawgfan77]

Could be some more news Monday. Ain't gonna be good

[CaptainObvious]

Could be some more news Monday. Ain't gonna be good

Excellent. News has been really so far in 2020.

[DownwardDawg]

Could be some more news Monday. Ain't gonna be good

Awesome! ***
2020 - the gift that keeps on giving

[R2Dawg]

And for those saying Leach is too hard headed to change his philosophy.. maybe he will maybe he won’t.. but who would have thought 10 years ago Saban would have changed his style and philosophy

One big difference. Saban cares about winning and will do anything to win. Moorhead and Leach care about doing it their way and had rather lose doing it his way than win in some other way.

[dawgday166]

One big difference. Saban cares about winning and will do anything to win. Moorhead and Leach care about doing it their way and had rather lose doing it his way than win in some other way.

If Saban had taken over this team ... you'd probably be seeing something similar. And y'all would be ready to fire him cause he'd be "washed up" or whatnot. Why? Cause we're supposed to win 8 every year regardless of coach and/or talent.

Saban went 6-6 his 1st year at Bama losing to La Monroe and Croom, with a LOT more talent and experience on the roster, and with 4 patsy Nonconference games.

[msstate7]

If Saban had taken over this team ... you'd probably be seeing something similar. And y'all would be ready to fire him cause he'd be "washed up" or whatnot. Why? Cause we're supposed to win 8 every year regardless of coach and/or talent.

Saban went 6-6 his 1st year at Bama losing to La Monroe and Croom, with a LOT more talent and experience on the roster, and with 4 patsy Nonconference games.

Dawgday, saban wins with talent. No one was concerned with his first year bc he was recruiting a top 5 class. If leach had a top 5 class, no one would be concerned. Leach is supposed to be a coach that wins with a talent deficit.

[Jarius]

Dawgday, saban wins with talent. No one was concerned with his first year bc he was recruiting a top 5 class. If leach had a top 5 class, no one would be concerned. Leach is supposed to be a coach that wins with a talent deficit.

He won 3 games his first year at Washington State. The talent deficit didn’t disappear after that, it simply changed to guys who fit what he was running and they got reps in his system.

[dawgday166]

Dawgday, saban wins with talent. No one was concerned with his first year bc he was recruiting a top 5 class. If leach had a top 5 class, no one would be concerned. Leach is supposed to be a coach that wins with a talent deficit.

Correct. But Leach has virtually no offensive talent on this year's club that ain't true Fr. That's not his fault. Of course he had to clean up the culture too and ran a few older guys off. It is what it is.

Saban went 6-6 with talent and experience. Had a full spring/fall/etc. Ran a simpler offense from standpoint of the amount of responsibility the QB has at line of scrimmage to check into correct play. Lot of responsibility due to autonomy and reads given to QBs and WRs in Leach's offense.

If Saban was at MSU this year as a coach coming from, let's say Mich St., in today's climate and with these rules, you'd probably see a lot of the same opting outs occurring as you do now. And probably not much better results too.

[Dawgfan77]

He won 3 games his first year at Washington State. The talent deficit didn’t disappear after that, it simply changed to guys who fit what he was running and they got reps in his system.

Bro... I been reading your post in this subject and I can tell you with all due respect you have no idea how bad things are. You want to bring up WSU and leach.... the previous HC at WSU was 9-40 in 4 years. He walked into a dumpster fire. With O talent in the PAC 12. You cannot compare. Leach system has been broken by the SEC DC. He won't win here it's the easiest offense to defend. End of argument. One more thing to point out. He is about to run off some more people and we are going to be in jeopardy of losing the rest of the season. Things are very bad in Vegas

[Prediction? Pain.]

Bro... I been reading your post in this subject and I can tell you with all due respect you have no idea how bad things are. You want to bring up WSU and leach.... the previous HC at WSU was 9-40 in 4 years. He walked into a dumpster fire. With O talent in the PAC 12. You cannot compare. Leach system has been broken by the SEC DC. He won't win here it's the easiest offense to defend. End of argument. One more thing to point out. He is about to run off some more people and we are going to be in jeopardy of losing the rest of the season. Things are very bad in Vegas

I won't defend the offense this year or claim that WSU in the decade before Leach was the same type of program as State over the past 10 years. But focusing on the offense specifically, there are some points worth comparing.

In 2011, WSU had a pass-heavy, mediocre-to-ok offense. They were 8th in the PAC-12 in scoring offense and total offense in conference games, and were 44th and 51st nationally in FEI and S&P+ offensive ratings. And by "pass heavy," I mean that in conference play they were 3rd in passing yards per game and 11th in rushing yards per game. The run-pass split of their total yards was 24% run, 76% pass. They had a senior quarterback that year, but freshman Connor Halliday played in four games (and started two) and passed for nearly 1000 yards, so Leach had him coming back.

You'd figure with an offense that passed so much -- I mean, a run to pass ratio of 24/76 sounds like the air raid to me, right? -- the transition would be at least sort of smooth. Well, it wasn't. At all. WSU's offense in Leach's first year regressed across the board. The in-conference total passing yards increased a tad (by 40 yards per game) but the yards per pass attempt, passer rating, and completion % all went down and interceptions when from 10 to 16. The rushing yards, which were already really low, fell off the map -- from 83 yards per game in 2011 to freaking 18 yards per game in 2012.

Here's a good summation -- WSU's 44th national ranking in FEI offense in 2011 dropped to 102nd in 2012 under Leach. In other words, WSU's mediocre Power 5 offense from 2011 bottomed out in Leach's first year.

How about State? Last year, our offense was similarly mediocre. FEI had us at 35th nationally and S&P+ had us at 36th. We were 6th and 8th in the conference in total offense and scoring offense in SEC games. But unlike WSU in 2011, we were a run-heavy offense. Third in the conference in rushing yards per game, 12th in passing yards. Also, we had one of the worst if not the worst pass-blocking offensive lines in college football under Moorhead. In 2018 our sack rate was 99th in the country. And in 2019, in was 119th. (Last year, 10% of every pass we attempted resulted in a sack. Think about that for a minute. Damn. (Right now, for what it's worth, we're 68th nationally in sack rate.))

And this year, like WSU in 2012, Leach took our mediocre offense from last season and gutted it. Leach finished his first season at WSU with the 102nd best offense in the country per FEI (out of 124 teams). Right now we're at 101st out of 130.

Again, this isn't meant to justify anything. It's just perspective. It happened the last time he took over a program and it's happening again here. Hopefully he can pull it off at MSU like he did at WSU. If not, the suckitude for the next year or two is going to be even worse.

[Todd4State]

I won't defend the offense this year or claim that WSU in the decade before Leach was the same type of program as State over the past 10 years. But focusing on the offense specifically, there are some points worth comparing.

In 2011, WSU had a pass-heavy, mediocre-to-ok offense. They were 8th in the PAC-12 in scoring offense and total offense in conference games, and were 44th and 51st nationally in FEI and S&P+ offensive ratings. And by "pass heavy," I mean that in conference play they were 3rd in passing yards per game and 11th in rushing yards per game. The run-pass split of their total yards was 24% run, 76% pass. They had a senior quarterback that year, but freshman Connor Halliday played in four games (and started two) and passed for nearly 1000 yards, so Leach had him coming back.

You'd figure with an offense that passed so much -- I mean, a run to pass ratio of 24/76 sounds like the air raid to me, right? -- the transition would be at least sort of smooth. Well, it wasn't. At all. WSU's offense in Leach's first year regressed across the board. The in-conference total passing yards increased a tad (by 40 yards per game) but the yards per pass attempt, passer rating, and completion % all went down and interceptions when from 10 to 16. The rushing yards, which were already really low, fell off the map -- from 83 yards per game in 2011 to freaking 18 yards per game in 2012.

Here's a good summation -- WSU's 44th national ranking in FEI offense in 2011 dropped to 102nd in 2012 under Leach. In other words, WSU's mediocre Power 5 offense from 2011 bottomed out in Leach's first year.

How about State? Last year, our offense was similarly mediocre. FEI had us at 35th nationally and S&P+ had us at 36th. We were 6th and 8th in the conference in total offense and scoring offense in SEC games. But unlike WSU in 2011, we were a run-heavy offense. Third in the conference in rushing yards per game, 12th in passing yards. Also, we had one of the worst if not the worst pass-blocking offensive lines in college football under Moorhead. In 2018 our sack rate was 99th in the country. And in 2019, in was 119th. (Last year, 10% of every pass we attempted resulted in a sack. Think about that for a minute. Damn. (Right now, for what it's worth, we're 68th nationally in sack rate.))

And this year, like WSU in 2012, Leach took our mediocre offense from last season and gutted it. Leach finished his first season at WSU with the 102nd best offense in the country per FEI (out of 124 teams). Right now we're at 101st out of 130.

Again, this isn't meant to justify anything. It's just perspective. It happened the last time he took over a program and it's happening again here. Hopefully he can pull it off at MSU like he did at WSU. If not, the suckitude for the next year or two is going to be even worse.

Outstanding! When I'm talking about context and patience this is what I am talking about.

We need more posts like this from our fans and less "It's not going to work!" six games in.

[Dawgfan77]

Well what I'm hearing is basically he has lost the team and the season is in jeopardy due to players leaving. It's not good what's happening

[HoopsDawg]

It's very, very difficult to overcome 2 bad coaching hires in a row. Our program and by extension our University is in serious trouble.

[dawgday166]

Outstanding! When I'm talking about context and patience this is what I am talking about.

We need more posts like this from our fans and less "It's not going to work!" six games in.

I really don't see how we can tell this year if it works or not yet, or if it will work or not.

We'll have to wait till next year and maybe even till 2 years from now to see how it works. We're so young and under-developed everywhere on offense with talent gaps there that it will take a while to fill the offensive roster back up with quality and depth of really good players.

And I'm not talking about a bunch of 4 and 5* guys either. I'm talking about high 3* and low 4* guys that can mature and grow into their bodies that have speed and athleticism. It takes a while to produce upper tier talent from that paradigm. However, isn't that how Mullen did it (don't y'all remember)?? Leach will probably have recruit/develop in a very similar manner. Especially when recruiting against Bama/AU/LSU/OM.

[bulldawg28]

Well what I'm hearing is basically he has lost the team and the season is in jeopardy due to players leaving. It's not good what's happening

Old school dictator dinosaurs don't work in 2020.

[Cowbell]

Well what I'm hearing is basically he has lost the team and the season is in jeopardy due to players leaving. It's not good what's happening
Thanks for the insight - unfortunately we could see this coming. Some guys are way overthinking this.

[KOdawg1]

Well what I'm hearing is basically he has lost the team and the season is in jeopardy due to players leaving. It's not good what's happening

I'm okay if the season gets canceled at this point. I'd rather not watch us lose to OM

[Dawgfan77]

I'm okay if the season gets canceled at this point. I'd rather not watch us lose to OM

Completely understand but where I draw the line is the fact we will have to forfeit the year because his dumbass decided to be an unrealistic hard ass and run players off. Factor in injuries and we are about to basically forfeiting the season. Long term it's not a good look.

[HoopsDawg]

Completely understand but where I draw the line is the fact we will have to forfeit the year because his dumbass decided to be an unrealistic hard ass and run players off. Factor in injuries and we are about to basically forfeiting the season. Long term it's not a good look.

Absolutely awful. You can't be a hard ass if you haven't earned the respect and trust of your players.

[Activated Alpha]

So can we get some credible sources of what you guys are hearing? I've only been reading lately, but Hoops has a burning hatred for Leach. That's clearly evident. However, I would like to hear from other people about the doom and gloom you guys are saying.

[ShotgunDawg]

Old school dictator dinosaurs don't work in 2020.

Especially when they don’t have Spring practice

[Leeshouldveflanked]

So if we have to forfeit the rest of the season can we still get Reps in?

[ShotgunDawg]

So if we have to forfeit the rest of the season can we still get Reps in?

Question is: is that a fireable offense?

[Jarius]

Bro... I been reading your post in this subject and I can tell you with all due respect you have no idea how bad things are. You want to bring up WSU and leach.... the previous HC at WSU was 9-40 in 4 years. He walked into a dumpster fire. With O talent in the PAC 12. You cannot compare. Leach system has been broken by the SEC DC. He won't win here it's the easiest offense to defend. End of argument. One more thing to point out. He is about to run off some more people and we are going to be in jeopardy of losing the rest of the season. Things are very bad in Vegas

Have a blessed day.

[was21]

Black players' mamas and grandmas don't like trump

[msstate7]

Question is: is that a fireable offense?

Anything is a fireable offense. Is it a with-cause offense?

[Political Hack]

This site has always been more "player friendly" than coach friendly, but I think most of the responsibility for this year's cataclysmic political tornado wrapped up with a big bow of Covid right on top lies squarely on the players. No leadership from within this year. If we don't give ML 4-5 years, we may as well put ourselves on probation.

[DownwardDawg]

Black players' mamas and grandmas don't like trump

Seriously? It's about 50/50 with the black people I work with. And it's 100% Trump voters among the 4 Spanish guys I work with.

But I doubt that has anything at all to do with the players leaving. At least I hope they're not that soft.

[PendingTransaction]

Seriously? It's about 50/50 with the black people I work with. And it's 100% Trump voters among the 4 Spanish guys I work with.

But I doubt that has anything at all to do with the players leaving. At least I hope they're not that soft.

I would wager that a dislike of Trump has nothing to do with players or recruits thoughts about our program. But their thoughts on the man "leading" our program is and will affect their decisions.

By the way, are any of your coworkers parents to D1 football players?

[msstate7]

This site has always been more "player friendly" than coach friendly, but I think most of the responsibility for this year's cataclysmic political tornado wrapped up with a big bow of Covid right on top lies squarely on the players. No leadership from within this year. If we don't give ML 4-5 years, we may as well put ourselves on probation.

4-5 years? I'm really down on leach, but I still think he deserves 3 years. If we getting shut down by Kentucky in year 3, send him to Florida

[ShotgunDawg]

This site has always been more "player friendly" than coach friendly, but I think most of the responsibility for this year's cataclysmic political tornado wrapped up with a big bow of Covid right on top lies squarely on the players. No leadership from within this year. If we don't give ML 4-5 years, we may as well put ourselves on probation.

Agree. It’s just completely frustrating right now.

[Todd4State]

This site has always been more "player friendly" than coach friendly, but I think most of the responsibility for this year's cataclysmic political tornado wrapped up with a big bow of Covid right on top lies squarely on the players. No leadership from within this year. If we don't give ML 4-5 years, we may as well put ourselves on probation.

Thanks. It's about time for the players to shit or get off the pot.

[ShotgunDawg]

Thanks. It's about time for the players to shit or get off the pot.

Our situation required a Spring more than other’s

[was21]

Hint: Leach is apparently a vocal trump supporter. Maybe we'll end up with a team of mormons...white boys riding bicycles with black pants and short sleeve shirts with slim black ties.

[Cooterpoot]

Hint: Leach is apparently a vocal trump supporter. Maybe we'll end up with a team of mormons...white boys riding bicycles with black pants and short sleeve shirts with slim black ties.

So is Dan Mullen, and he seems to be doing fine. In fact, I'd bet the majority of college football coaches in the south voted for Trump. This is a ridiculous non-issue.

[ShotgunDawg]

Hint: Leach is apparently a vocal trump supporter. Maybe we'll end up with a team of mormons...white boys riding bicycles with black pants and short sleeve shirts with slim black ties.

I actually read somewhere that most college football coaches are Republicans and basketball coaches Democrats.

I thought that was interesting and odd as to why.

[Todd4State]

Hint: Leach is apparently a vocal trump supporter. Maybe we'll end up with a team of mormons...white boys riding bicycles with black pants and short sleeve shirts with slim black ties.

What? Did Leach just get up in the middle of practice and start yelling Make America Great Again or something like that?**

[Todd4State]

Our situation required a Spring more than other’s

We need a quarterback that doesn't throw pick sixes and an offensive line that is capable of blocking three guys more than the others too.

The offensive side of the ball doesn't appear to have very many of any leaders like Errol or Kobe either.

[ShotgunDawg]

We need a quarterback that doesn't throw pick sixes and an offensive line that is capable of blocking three guys more than the others too.

The offensive side of the ball doesn't appear to have very many of any leaders like Errol or Kobe either.

I wouldn’t include Errol. He’s had a good year but he isn’t a leader. Kobe yes

[ShotgunDawg]

This site has always been more "player friendly" than coach friendly, but I think most of the responsibility for this year's cataclysmic political tornado wrapped up with a big bow of Covid right on top lies squarely on the players. No leadership from within this year. If we don't give ML 4-5 years, we may as well put ourselves on probation.

Any insight on why we’ve had more trouble than other teams?

[KOdawg1]

Black players' mamas and grandmas don't like trump

Irrelevant. Most of the head coaches in the SEC are conservatives.

[bulldawg28]

Especially when they don?t have Spring practice

Spring practice isn't the reason, it's an excuse. Other new SEC coaches with less experience didn't have Spring practice and are progressing just fine. Truthfully, he should have adapted easily with his tenure despite no Spring practices.

[FISHDAWG]

We need a quarterback that doesn't throw pick sixes and an offensive line that is capable of blocking three guys more than the others too.

The offensive side of the ball doesn't appear to have very many of any leaders like Errol or Kobe either.

Do you consider Leach as a leader?

[Dawg2003]

Hint: Leach is apparently a vocal trump supporter. Maybe we'll end up with a team of mormons...white boys riding bicycles with black pants and short sleeve shirts with slim black ties.

Is he talking about Trump a lot in practice or something? Because I can't see it mattering unless he is talking about Trump at team meetings or practices, ect.

[ShotgunDawg]

Spring practice isn't the reason, it's an excuse. Other new SEC coaches with less experience didn't have Spring practice and are progressing just fine. Truthfully, he should have adapted easily with his tenure despite no Spring practices.

What would you have done differently than Leach?

[ShotgunDawg]

Do you consider Leach as a leader?

He has been for 20 years

[Political Hack]

Any insight on why we?ve had more trouble than other teams?

Honestly, I think our team leaders saw their "leadership role" as some social responsibility to "challenge" the current leadership structure, which flies in the face of Leach's philosophy. It's just a bad fit short term. We're going to have to see a lot of turnover in players before we start to have success IMO. We're likely 2 years away from having a solid enough base to work with, but in the Covid post-2020 world anything is bound to happen.

Others will know more specifics about what's going on in the locker room, but it's clear that the lines have been drawn and too many people are standing on one side or the other instead working together.

[R2Dawg]

It appears we got about the worst combination of circumstances right now, team and coach. Leach can institute discipline and fix the culture without pushing the entire team out. He is making this a lot harder than it has to be. I know there are some good kids and good players on the team that don't need attitude adjustments.

[DownwardDawg]

By the way, are any of your coworkers parents to D1 football players?

No

[Walkerhill]

This is going to be okay by next year, good in 2 years and great after that. I am thinking 6, then 8, then 9-10 wins in the next 3 years. Nothing a decent signing class and 10 grad transfers (or however many it takes) can’t fix.

No coach has done more with less at harder places than Leach. It has taken 2-3 years at both previous stops and it will again, apparently.

Are there ways he could make it easier on himself. No doubt. But he will get ‘his guys’ and get there in the end, as always. Fighting uphill as an underdog is his mode. I guess that is just the way it has to be.

[bulldawg28]

What would you have done differently than Leach?

Adapt his air raid to the current rosters strengths. It ultimately would have been a more balanced offense. He could have gradually implemented more of what he wants. It's poor coaching to force a square peg into a round hole.

[ShotgunDawg]

Adapt his air raid to the current rosters strengths. It ultimately would have been a more balanced offense. He could have gradually implemented more of what he wants. It's poor coaching to force a square peg into a round hole.

I don’t disagree with this.

What about from a work ethic, drugs, and standards standpoint?

[msstate7]

I don’t disagree with this.

What about from a work ethic, drugs, and standards standpoint?

You got me wanting to quit my job, and move to Starkville to sell hard drugs. Our team is nothing but hard core drug addicts

[msugolf]

This is going to be okay by next year, good in 2 years and great after that. I am thinking 6, then 8, then 9-10 wins in the next 3 years. Nothing a decent signing class and 10 grad transfers (or however many it takes) can’t fix.

No coach has done more with less at harder places than Leach. It has taken 2-3 years at both previous stops and it will again, apparently.

Are there ways he could make it easier on himself. No doubt. But he will get ‘his guys’ and get there in the end, as always. Fighting uphill as an underdog is his mode. I guess that is just the way it has to be.

Wow ... amazing!

We'll be lucky to win 6 by the third year. And it takes a bit more than one "decent" signing class to have a team capable of winning 9-10 games in this conference.

[bulldawg28]

I don’t disagree with this.

What about from a work ethic, drugs, and standards standpoint?

The majority of these players leaving don't fall within your listed categories. They've worked hard, followed the standards, and have run into a brick wall with results. The coach can't provide answers he's instead blaming them. You'd get upset too. He's also too blame on whom he sends on the field.

[Cooterpoot]

It appears we got about the worst combination of circumstances right now, team and coach. Leach can institute discipline and fix the culture without pushing the entire team out. He is making this a lot harder than it has to be. I know there are some good kids and good players on the team that don't need attitude adjustments.

He didn't make those kids smoke weed. He didn't make them quit or opt out. They all chose to. That's on the kid.

[Walkerhill]

Wow ... amazing!

We'll be lucky to win 6 by the third year. And it takes a bit more than one "decent" signing class to have a team capable of winning 9-10 games in this conference.

I am brave enough to put my opinion on the record. Guess we?ll see next few years.

[HancockCountyDog]

He didn't make those kids smoke weed. He didn't make them quit or opt out. They all chose to. That's on the kid.

The kids didn?t make him run an offense that apparently everyone except Bo Pelini has figured out. They didn?t make him refuse to adapt to the personnel that he was given. He chose to be stubborn. That?s on the coach being paid 5 million to win games this year, not in 3 years when he has ?his? players here.

[Percho]

Hint: Leach is apparently a vocal trump supporter. Maybe we'll end up with a team of mormons...white boys riding bicycles with black pants and short sleeve shirts with slim black ties.

It's worked pretty good at BYU!

[ShotgunDawg]

It's worked pretty good at BYU!

Those Mormons are 26 though due to the 4 year mission they take.

[confucius say]

Don't know if leach can average 7-5 here like dan did or not, but it is clear he ain't worried about winning this year. That is clear from the roster overhaul and letting shrader walk.
So we can all stop saying he should adapt to win now his scheme to fit this roster and win now. He ain't worried about that and it's obvious.

[Coach34]

Leach was hired to win- thats the bottom line. Next year will make or break I think. If 2021 isnt any better- then things will get interesting. If Leach is still struggling quite a bit- there is going to be problems and hell raising. And it should be.

[Bothrops]

Keep in mind, Leach will likely need about 4 years to hit .500. We got rid of our last coach when everyone wanted, now we're gonna have to be patient whether we like it of not. Now if he loses his first two Eggbowls he could be in early trouble.

[Bothrops]

Leach was hired to win- thats the bottom line. Next year will make or break I think. If 2021 isnt any better- then things will get interesting. If Leach is still struggling quite a bit- there is going to be problems and hell raising. And it should be.

Next year is a terrible schedule with Arky, Aub, and A&M on the road. At Auburn is a loss no matter what. Arkansas is likely a loss as is A&M....as well as LSU and Bama and possibly NC State.

[Coach34]

Next year is a terrible schedule with Arky, Aub, and A&M on the road. At Auburn is a loss no matter what. Arkansas is likely a loss as is A&M....as well as LSU and Bama and possibly NC State.

Struggling again on offense with an offensive guru will be the judgement more than the final record. A 2nd year struggle vs SEC Defenses will lead to alot of people walking out of his corner.

[Bothrops]

Struggling again on offense with an offensive guru will be the judgement more than the final record. A 2nd year struggle vs SEC Defenses will lead to alot of people walking out of his corner.

Someone at qb is going to have to become a juggernaut very very quick.

[DownwardDawg]

Keep in mind, Leach will likely need about 4 years to hit .500. We got rid of our last coach when everyone wanted, now we're gonna have to be patient whether we like it of not. Now if he loses his first two Eggbowls he could be in early trouble.

He will get skull drug in his first two egg bowls. That will probably be the end of the experiment.

[Todd4State]

Let's see- Moorhead comes to us as an offensive guru at Penn State, struggles here and now his offense is good again at Oregon.

Leach is an offensive guru who did well at Wazzu and struggles here in year one.

Maybe it's not them.**

[Todd4State]

Keep in mind, Leach will likely need about 4 years to hit .500. We got rid of our last coach when everyone wanted, now we're gonna have to be patient whether we like it of not. Now if he loses his first two Eggbowls he could be in early trouble.

.500 SEC record or overall?

[Cowbell]

Let's see- Moorhead comes to us as an offensive guru at Penn State, struggles here and now his offense is good again at Oregon.

Leach is an offensive guru who did well at Wazzu and struggles here in year one.

Maybe it's not them.**

You are really reaching here. According to Leach, joes culture is the problem. So you can't play both sides here. The fact you are using Mooreheads success as an OC in a different conference is amateur. Maybe it's SEC defenses.

If you are gonna make arguments, please make it atleast relative.

[Cowbell]

Leach was hired to win- thats the bottom line. Next year will make or break I think. If 2021 isnt any better- then things will get interesting. If Leach is still struggling quite a bit- there is going to be problems and hell raising. And it should be.
Amazing how many people don't get that coaches are to take what they have today and make the most of it. Last I checked we are still selling game tickets for this year and plan to next year. You don't get two exhibition years before it counts. When or lose, you are to be judged as a coach by how your unit performs based on what you were given to work with. Running so many players off that you can't field a team Is cost-prohibitive to the goal of winning.

[Todd4State]

You are really reaching here. According to Leach, joes culture is the problem. So you can't play both sides here. The fact you are using Mooreheads success as an OC in a different conference is amateur. Maybe it's SEC defenses.

If you are gonna make arguments, please make it atleast relative.

Joe's culture is the main problem. I don't disagree there. But relatively speaking if players on other teams can execute these offenses and our guys can't. LSU ran a lot of Moorhead's RPO's- I doubt that they would have done that if they thought Moorhead was the idiot that many on this message board thought he was- or that his offense "wouldn't work" in the SEC.

The this won't work mantra is so overplayed by some of our fans. Get better players in and I guarantee you that any offense will work better- even in the SEC.


Amazing how many people don't get that coaches are to take what they have today and make the most of it. Last I checked we are still selling game tickets for this year and plan to next year. You don't get two exhibition years before it counts. When or lose, you are to be judged as a coach by how your unit performs based on what you were given to work with. Running so many players off that you can't field a team Is cost-prohibitive to the goal of winning.

Amazing how you missed my post about Dave Clawson, Tom Allen, and Neal Brown's first year yesterday. Actually first two years for Clawson and Allen. I could go through football history and point out many great coaches that took a year or two to get things going. I would say that is actually the norm most of the time although I'm sure there are exceptions too. But guys like Saban, Bill Walsh with the 49ers, Bear Bryant at Texas A&M, and Vince Lombardi with the Packers all come to mind. This really shouldn't be surprising given Leach's history at all.

I think we agree that Moorhead's culture was a problem...and you're surprised that Leach has run some people off? That's typically what happens when a new coach comes to town anyway. Even the great Dan Mullen lost some guys.

[was21]

and last time I checked he was still getting 5M year to try and win football games, meaning putting his players in the best position to win now not three years from now

[basedog]

"The this won't work mantra is so overplayed by some of our fans. Get better players in and I guarantee you that any offense will work better- even in the SEC.


Even the great Dan Mullen lost some guys."
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
Couple things Todd, I have seen many football seasons at Msu, seen many Coaches come and go, But I can tell you I hope in at least your Lifetime, "we" will see another Coach as good as Dan MUllen was for Msu. Regardless of anyone's take including mine, history says DM was the best or at least one of the very best we have ever had. 9 years is a lifetime now days for any Coach to stay at one place, money and pressure plus being in the Sec which fans are way more impatient than most places in the country with football.

Also, I hope Leach is "regrouping", yes it takes players but his play calling needs to be "retooled", time will tell in the next few years. Hard to catch up to the say top tier schools in the Sec.

Not sure finishing this year will help Leach or the fan base, it's one of my most disappointing seasons ever, mainly from all the post about how great Leach will be before the season. What a terrible adjustments regardless of the players on offense, no imagination, big surprise for me.

[Cooterpoot]

Let's see- Moorhead comes to us as an offensive guru at Penn State, struggles here and now his offense is good again at Oregon.

Leach is an offensive guru who did well at Wazzu and struggles here in year one.

Maybe it's not them.**

Moorhead was never a guru. Just because SI and his agent said It doesn't make it true. And that's Cristibol's offense, not Joes.
Nobody has ever claimed Leach to be a guru either. He just runs an offense that throws it 70% of time.

[confucius say]

You are really reaching here. According to Leach, joes culture is the problem. So you can't play both sides here. The fact you are using Mooreheads success as an OC in a different conference is amateur. Maybe it's SEC defenses.

If you are gonna make arguments, please make it atleast relative.

Sec defenses, outside of 2-4, aren't good.

[confucius say]

Amazing how many people don't get that coaches are to take what they have today and make the most of it. Last I checked we are still selling game tickets for this year and plan to next year. You don't get two exhibition years before it counts. When or lose, you are to be judged as a coach by how your unit performs based on what you were given to work with. Running so many players off that you can't field a team Is cost-prohibitive to the goal of winning.

Maybe it should be. But it's not. It is clear his primary goal for this season is not to win as many games as possible. You don't get get rid of your best players and let others walk if your primary concern is winning now. You also don't run the air raid with a team that's been power spread based. Leach doesn't care about winning now. Accept it.

[HancockCountyDog]

All this Moorhead 'culture" excuse is just that - an excuse. A bogus one at that.

When the season started and we kicked the shit out of LSU - i didn't hear one person spouting this culture BS. It was the opposite, people praised the Leach Beach and how the team was so happy, focused and finally disciplined. Now that teams have watched Washington film, all of a sudden its culture, drugs, and laziness. So let me get this right, our team had a bad culture, were taking drugs and were lazy, yet worked hard enough during the summer to go into Baton Rouge in the first weekend of the year and kicked the shit out of the reigning National Champs - and then decided to stop trying because that is the culture Moorhead fostered? How does that make any sense?

That is the story we are telling?

As opposed to the story that the kids clearly worked hard enough to be ready to play in their first game, they played hard and ran into a DC that decided to blitz the air raid. After that, every team we have played has incorporated some version of the 3-8 and the offense has looked like dog shit. The defense has played as well or if not better than they did in the LSU game. So its just the offense that is infected with terrible, lazy, drug addicts?

I guess its a whole lot easier to call a bunch of kids that have worked their ass off for multiple years, won plenty of games for us, lazy drug addicts without any real proof, but all you are doing is making excuses for a guy being paid 5 million dollars a year to win games. That's it - that is all you are doing and I think a lot of our fans need to look in the mirror and realize what they are saying and posting because its pretty damn disgusting.

[ShotgunDawg]

All this Moorhead 'culture" excuse is just that - an excuse. A bogus one at that.

When the season started and we kicked the shit out of LSU - i didn't hear one person spouting this culture BS. It was the opposite, people praised the Leach Beach and how the team was so happy, focused and finally disciplined. Now that teams have watched Washington film, all of a sudden its culture, drugs, and laziness. So let me get this right, our team had a bad culture, were taking drugs and were lazy, yet worked hard enough during the summer to go into Baton Rouge in the first weekend of the year and kicked the shit out of the reigning National Champs - and then decided to stop trying because that is the culture Moorhead fostered? How does that make any sense?

That is the story we are telling?

As opposed to the story that the kids clearly worked hard enough to be ready to play in their first game, they played hard and ran into a DC that decided to blitz the air raid. After that, every team we have played has incorporated some version of the 3-8 and the offense has looked like dog shit. The defense has played as well or if not better than they did in the LSU game. So its just the offense that is infected with terrible, lazy, drug addicts?

I guess its a whole lot easier to call a bunch of kids that have worked their ass off for multiple years, won plenty of games for us, lazy drug addicts without any real proof, but all you are doing is making excuses for a guy being paid 5 million dollars a year to win games. That's it - that is all you are doing and I think a lot of our fans need to look in the mirror and realize what they are saying and posting because its pretty damn disgusting.

We literally had a starter quit the other day when & because the DC yelled at him.

Enough said. The toughness level of this program is pathetic.

Is that the only reason we're losing? Of course not, but it's a real problem that has to get fixed for us to really take the next step

[msugolf]

All this Moorhead 'culture" excuse is just that - an excuse. A bogus one at that.

When the season started and we kicked the shit out of LSU - i didn't hear one person spouting this culture BS. It was the opposite, people praised the Leach Beach and how the team was so happy, focused and finally disciplined. Now that teams have watched Washington film, all of a sudden its culture, drugs, and laziness. So let me get this right, our team had a bad culture, were taking drugs and were lazy, yet worked hard enough during the summer to go into Baton Rouge in the first weekend of the year and kicked this shit out of the reigning National Champs - and then decided to stop trying because that is the culture to Moorhead fostered? How does that make any sense?

That is the story we are telling?

As opposed to the kids clearly worked hard enough to be ready to play in their first game, they played hard and ran into a DC that decided to blitz the air raid. After that, every team we have played has incorporated some version of the 3-8 and the offense has looked like dog shit. The defense has played as well or if not better than they did in the LSU game. So its just the offense that is infected with terrible, lazy, drug addicts?

I guess its a whole lot easier to call a bunch of kids that have worked their ass off for multiple years, won plenty of games for us, lazy drug addicts without any real proof, but all you are doing is making excuses for a guy being paid 5 million dollars a year to win games. Thats it - that is all you are doing and I think a lot of our fans need to look in the mirror and realize what they are saying and posting because its pretty damn disgusting.

Exactly right. We have several folks that have dug their heels in and said I'm gonna go pro-Leach regardless of what he does and spin everything to favor him. They are gonna go down with the ship and could care less about the program. For as mad as Coach34 makes them about wanting to be right more than State winning, they are doing the same thing with Leach.

Cohen has a major problem on his hands right now. He's losing money and support from boosters and alumni. Angering other coaches in other sports (one left this week over social awareness issues) and we are on the verge of not being able to even field a football team. Next year we'll be lucky to have 75 scholarship players on the team after all of the opt outs and transfers. We better wake the F up and realize what's going on before we dig ourselves in a hole that we can't recover from.

[msugolf]

We literally had a starter quit the other day when & because the DC yelled at him.

Enough said. The toughness level of this program is pathetic.

Is that the only reason we're losing? Of course not, but it's a real problem that has to get fixed for us to really take the next step

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think that's the whole story

[ShotgunDawg]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think that's the whole story

Oh really?

That's pretty much the story as I've heard it. What's the rest of the story?

[DeltaChicagoDog]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think that's the whole story

Okay, then what is the whole story? Should be able to covey this without stepping on toes.

[bluelightstar]

All this Moorhead 'culture" excuse is just that - an excuse. A bogus one at that.

When the season started and we kicked the shit out of LSU - i didn't hear one person spouting this culture BS. It was the opposite, people praised the Leach Beach and how the team was so happy, focused and finally disciplined. Now that teams have watched Washington film, all of a sudden its culture, drugs, and laziness. So let me get this right, our team had a bad culture, were taking drugs and were lazy, yet worked hard enough during the summer to go into Baton Rouge in the first weekend of the year and kicked the shit out of the reigning National Champs - and then decided to stop trying because that is the culture Moorhead fostered? How does that make any sense?

That is the story we are telling?

As opposed to the story that the kids clearly worked hard enough to be ready to play in their first game, they played hard and ran into a DC that decided to blitz the air raid. After that, every team we have played has incorporated some version of the 3-8 and the offense has looked like dog shit. The defense has played as well or if not better than they did in the LSU game. So its just the offense that is infected with terrible, lazy, drug addicts?

I guess its a whole lot easier to call a bunch of kids that have worked their ass off for multiple years, won plenty of games for us, lazy drug addicts without any real proof, but all you are doing is making excuses for a guy being paid 5 million dollars a year to win games. That's it - that is all you are doing and I think a lot of our fans need to look in the mirror and realize what they are saying and posting because its pretty damn disgusting.

Bravo.

[ShotgunDawg]

Okay, then what is the whole story? Should be able to covey this without stepping on toes.

Story I was told is that Errol & Murphy were loafing at practice & Arnett tore them a new one while calling them a few names. Murphy quit & Malik Heath called at Errol & put him in his place. Errol quit as well but came back

[HancockCountyDog]

Story I was told is that Errol & Murphy were loafing at practice & Arnett tore them a new one while calling them a few names. Murphy quit & Malik Heath called at Errol & put him in his place. Errol quit as well but came back

This story fell apart when you said Malik put Errol in his place.

[ShotgunDawg]

This story fell apart when you said Malik put Errol in his place.

That was actually the most factual part from what I heard

[Ari Gold]

It’s been 5 games.. and a ****ed up college sports year since the spring ..
May it works out maybe it doesn’t... let’s get a normal year or 2 in the books and see what happens.
Look on the bright side .. if it doesn’t work out with CML , he won’t be the only one that won’t be here..

[bulldawg28]

Oh really?

That's pretty much the story as I've heard it. What's the rest of the story?

I can come up with a story too.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Story I was told is that Errol & Murphy were loafing at practice & Arnett tore them a new one while calling them a few names. Murphy quit & Malik Heath called at Errol & put him in his place. Errol quit as well but came back

I had heard another name as the other one who quit, but the rest of your story is pretty much verbatim what I was told.

[msstate7]

All this Moorhead 'culture" excuse is just that - an excuse. A bogus one at that.

When the season started and we kicked the shit out of LSU - i didn't hear one person spouting this culture BS. It was the opposite, people praised the Leach Beach and how the team was so happy, focused and finally disciplined. Now that teams have watched Washington film, all of a sudden its culture, drugs, and laziness. So let me get this right, our team had a bad culture, were taking drugs and were lazy, yet worked hard enough during the summer to go into Baton Rouge in the first weekend of the year and kicked the shit out of the reigning National Champs - and then decided to stop trying because that is the culture Moorhead fostered? How does that make any sense?

That is the story we are telling?

As opposed to the story that the kids clearly worked hard enough to be ready to play in their first game, they played hard and ran into a DC that decided to blitz the air raid. After that, every team we have played has incorporated some version of the 3-8 and the offense has looked like dog shit. The defense has played as well or if not better than they did in the LSU game. So its just the offense that is infected with terrible, lazy, drug addicts?

I guess its a whole lot easier to call a bunch of kids that have worked their ass off for multiple years, won plenty of games for us, lazy drug addicts without any real proof, but all you are doing is making excuses for a guy being paid 5 million dollars a year to win games. That's it - that is all you are doing and I think a lot of our fans need to look in the mirror and realize what they are saying and posting because its pretty damn disgusting.
Damn, strong

[confucius say]

Leach sucking and joe having a culture problem are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true.

[msstate7]

Leach sucking and joe having a culture problem are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true.

Hancock's point is a good one though... is the drug/culture problem limited to just the offense? The defense has been good all year. The offense's drug/culture problem seemed to coincide with opposing defenses going to a 3-8

[confucius say]

Hancock's point is a good one though... is the drug/culture problem limited to just the offense? The defense has been good all year. The offense's drug/culture problem seemed to coincide with opposing defenses going to a 3-8

The culture problem is more that when things go south and get tough, people quit. Everybody can be positive and go hard when things are going well. Struggles reveal character. I'm not sure anyone is blaming the offense's struggles solely on culture. That'd be foolish.

The offense, culture aside, sucks bc we don't have the personnel to run the air raid (or any offense really). We have a true freshman qb who may or may not be good in time, two true freshmen rb who don't make people miss or break tackles, average (at best) receivers, and slow footed OL who can't pass block without help.

The real question is whether it is possible to get the types of players here needed to execute this system efficiently enough to go 7-5,8-4. Maybe leach can do it, but he ain't got it now regardless of culture.