Quick Thoughts On What is Going on With Our Football Program

[ShotgunDawg]

Norman Dale has come to town. Give it time...

What made Mullen's program special was culture. To win big, we've got to reset that.

I realize it feels like a toe nail is currently being extracted from your body, but to build the program & team we want, it's necessary. This is a way way bigger deal than our scheme.

https://twitter.com/robbiefaulk247/status/1321483531172958213?s=20
https://twitter.com/bportnoy15/status/1321498191787937795?s=20


https://youtu.be/cIWSEdtRosg

[YazooDawg23]

Normal Dale won the State championship in year one and also let his best player back on the team after quitting. He also started him game one with no punishment. Incredibly dumb analogy.

[ShotgunDawg]

Normal Dale won the State championship in year one and also let his best player back on the team after quitting. He also started him game one with no punishment. Incredibly dumb analogy.

Good points. LOL

The good news is that we're a mild COVID breakout away from being able to cancel the season

[bluelightstar]

oh well, maybe Mississippi State will be interesting again by 2023

[StarkVegasSteve]

Normal Dale won the State championship in year one and also let his best player back on the team after quitting. He also started him game one with no punishment. Incredibly dumb analogy.

Actually he didn't start Buddy Game 1. Common misconception that was taken care of in the deleted scenes. But I think the analogy is dead on. You go with the guys that want to be there and you stand up and fight for them. I think once we're rid of the malcontent you're going to see a different Leach.

[ShotgunDawg]

Actually he didn't start Buddy Game 1. Common misconception that was taken care of in the deleted scenes. But I think the analogy is dead on. You go with the guys that want to be there and you stand up and fight for them. I think once we're rid of the malcontent you're going to see a different Leach.

You have to set the culture immediately and then go from there.

My guess is that once Leach gets the culture set, he'll be more lenient, but you've got to set the culture at it's extreme first so that everyone is aware of the standard

[StarkVegasSteve]

You have to set the culture immediately and then go from there.

My guess is that once Leach gets the culture set, he'll be more lenient, but you've got to set the culture at it's extreme first so that everyone is aware of the standard

Go back and look at the transfers between Croom and Dan. Or look at the recruits in Dan's first two classes that lasted about a week on campus. Players programs don't win in this league. Never have and never will. You have to have accountability. When we lost the leaders of 18 all the accountability that Dan had spent 9 years preaching left the program. We're now reaping the sow of a "players program". I'm tough on Cohen for a lot of things, but getting rid of Joe when he did probably saved us 2-4 years of a rebuild. A full cycle of his players and his program accountability would've sunk us to or below Croom levels.

[basedog]

In my best Allen Iverson voice and tone, "You talkn bout a movie"!

[Leeshouldveflanked]

How many years will it take us to be competitive with UK and UPig?

[ShotgunDawg]

Go back and look at the transfers between Croom and Dan. Or look at the recruits in Dan's first two classes that lasted about a week on campus. Players programs don't win in this league. Never have and never will. You have to have accountability. When we lost the leaders of 18 all the accountability that Dan had spent 9 years preaching left the program. We're now reaping the sow of a "players program". I'm tough on Cohen for a lot of things, but getting rid of Joe when he did probably saved us 2-4 years of a rebuild. A full cycle of his players and his program accountability would've sunk us to or below Croom levels.

100% correct

[ShotgunDawg]

How many years will it take us to be competitive with UK and UPig?

Next year will be competitive and then we'll boat race them. Once Leach gets 85 guys all buying in and talented, he's going to be really tough to beat.

[Commercecomet24]

You have to set the culture immediately and then go from there.

My guess is that once Leach gets the culture set, he'll be more lenient, but you've got to set the culture at it's extreme first so that everyone is aware of the standard

Yep, you can start out tight and loosen things up as you go, once you have established your culture, but if you start out loose you can never, ever tighten it up, it never works that way.

[Commercecomet24]

Go back and look at the transfers between Croom and Dan. Or look at the recruits in Dan's first two classes that lasted about a week on campus. Players programs don't win in this league. Never have and never will. You have to have accountability. When we lost the leaders of 18 all the accountability that Dan had spent 9 years preaching left the program. We're now reaping the sow of a "players program". I'm tough on Cohen for a lot of things, but getting rid of Joe when he did probably saved us 2-4 years of a rebuild. A full cycle of his players and his program accountability would've sunk us to or below Croom levels.

Very well said!

[ShotgunDawg]

Yep, you can start out tight and loosen things up as you go, once you have established your culture, but if you start out loose you can never, ever tighten it up, it never works that way.

Correct.

What's funny is that people watch Hoosiers and identify with the coach and view the Hickory fans as ignorant fans that don't know what's going on or what Dale is doing, but when the same exact same thing happens in real life, most people become the fan.

It's an interesting psychological experiment.

[basedog]

IF 65 or 65a passes I will smoke what some are smoking**** Oh I need to find my Maroon shades so I can see what you guys see and believe. I don't see a top 10 program in a few years, I see more problems and I HOPE I'm wrong and will admit it.

[ShotgunDawg]

IF 65 or 65a passes I will smoke what some are smoking**** Oh I need to find my Maroon shades so I can see what you guys see and believe. I don't see a top 10 program in a few years, I see more problems and I HOPE I'm wrong and will admit it.

I get it. I believe what Leach is doing is right and he's got the resume and track record to back it up. This literal situation has happened everywhere he's been and it worked in the long run

[bulldawg28]

What's happening now is Leach is late to the party imo. Losing this amount of players can be detrimental unless he's got a plan. The fact that he can't adjust on the field makes me wonder. He's not a players coach it seems, hard core old school.

[R2Dawg]

How many years will it take us to be competitive with UK and UPig?

Ark came back in one year after a complete dismantle. We are in better shape than them. We'll be back next year even or slightly ahead. We must retain the right coaches (Arnett for one) and recruit MS well. Do that and we'll be fine as always.

[basedog]

What's happening now is Leach is late to the party imo. Losing this amount of players can be detrimental unless he's got a plan. The fact that he can't adjust on the field makes me wonder. He's not a players coach it seems, hard core old school.

Yep

[MaroonBelle]

Ark came back in one year after a complete dismantle. We are in better shape than them. We'll be back next year even or slightly ahead. We must retain the right coaches (Arnett for one) and recruit MS well. Do that and we'll be fine as always.

Arkansas players seem to actually like their coach and enjoy playing for him. You can clean house all you want but you have to wonder what this looks like to prospects.

[bluelightstar]

Arkansas players seem to actually like their coach and enjoy playing for him. You can clean house all you want but you have to wonder what this looks like to prospects.

I agree that most of Leach's players famously don't like him. Hasn't mattered that much, but I'll be curious to see if that holds up in a league like this.

[ShotgunDawg]

What's happening now is Leach is late to the party imo. Losing this amount of players can be detrimental unless he's got a plan. The fact that he can't adjust on the field makes me wonder. He's not a players coach it seems, hard core old school.

Old school is good.

And yes, this likely would've been take care of in Spring practice, but that couldn't happen

[ShotgunDawg]

https://twitter.com/bportnoy15/status/1321498191787937795?s=20

[basedog]

I agree that most of Leach's players famously don't like him. Hasn't mattered that much, but I'll be curious to see if that holds up in a league like this.

I see no adjustments on the field so for, I wonder about his recruiting, we are ok on defense right now but I wonder how the future will be with such an offensive HC.

I'm old school, I think you have to mix it up some with the run/pass.

[Commercecomet24]

https://twitter.com/bportnoy15/status/1321498191787937795?s=20

Everyone knows the "Don't widen the plate" story don't they? Leach ain't widening the plate for anyone. That can still work even in todays soft, me first culture.

[ShotgunDawg]

https://twitter.com/bportnoy15/status/1321498191787937795?s=20

FWIW, most coaches don't have enough security in themselves, their coaching abilities, & conviction between the right way and wrong way to do things to make these types of moves.

Leach 100% knows what he's doing. I realize it's hard to see the big picture, but this guy is a 17ing winner and he's shaping this program to do exactly that. Most coaches don't have the intestinal fortitude to do it right. They all say they want to do it right, but they don't have the will to do it right.

The reality is that we're about to have 85 players that are "ALL IN". Not sure we've ever had that

[MaroonBelle]

I agree that most of Leach's players famously don't like him. Hasn't mattered that much, but I'll be curious to see if that holds up in a league like this.

Honestly, I would like our players to enjoy playing here. Enjoy being a part of the program. I just don't know how you build a program at a school with the limitations we have without that. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a lack of discipline but there has to be some middle ground in here somewhere.

[HoopsDawg]

Everyone knows the "Don't widen the plate" story don't they? Leach ain't widening the plate for anyone. That can still work even in todays soft, me first culture.

I'm not going to lie, Leach's Mormon beliefs with our recruiting footprint could cause situations like this to continue. I'm clearly just speculating. All of these players are probably leaving for different reasons. But there has to be a certain degree of flexibilty. If you set the precedent, for example, that 1 failed drug test for weed gets you kicked off. Then you have to follow that for every single player going forward. We might not have any good WR's in the future.

[HoopsDawg]

Honestly, I would like our players to enjoy playing here. Enjoy being a part of the program. I just don't know how you build a program at a school with the limitations we have without that. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a lack of discipline but there has to be some middle ground in here somewhere.

Well said.

[bluelightstar]

Honestly, I would like our players to enjoy playing here. Enjoy being a part of the program. I just don't know how you build a program at a school with the limitations we have without that. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a lack of discipline but there has to be some middle ground in here somewhere.

*If* leach doesn?t work out, I?m at least glad that the next guy will have a disciplined foundation. Maybe Mullen will be closer to having a coaching tree by then

[Irondawg]

Everyone knows the "Don't widen the plate" story don't they? Leach ain't widening the plate for anyone. That can still work even in todays soft, me first culture.

It can still work but it’s getting harder as a high majority of kids today don’t have much of a work ethic or respect for authority. My brother quit coaching HS basketball a few years back because he just couldn’t take the kids anymore.

Now I’m all for what Leach is doing especially for those that violated known team rules. We know this locker room is a bit short on leaders so for now the coach has to do the dirty work.

The hope is he’s able to find some great players that are also great locker room guys like Mullen has in his best teams

[BeardoMSU]

Honestly, I would like our players to enjoy playing here. Enjoy being a part of the program. I just don't know how you build a program at a school with the limitations we have without that. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a lack of discipline but there has to be some middle ground in here somewhere.

Exactly. And that concept doesn't really matter when you play for a TT or WSU, but it absolutely does when you play for a school in the SEC. When our guys go play in the NFL, it makes us look good for them to plug MSU every chance they get (like a Dak, for example). Not having those type of guys, and that type of player-program nostalgia and support will only hurt us long term...

Especially in recruiting...

[ShotgunDawg]

Honestly, I would like our players to enjoy playing here. Enjoy being a part of the program. I just don't know how you build a program at a school with the limitations we have without that. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a lack of discipline but there has to be some middle ground in here somewhere.

The most fun any player can ever have is to win, have structure, and get better as a human.

There's a reason that the bond between soldiers that went to war together is among the closest bonds that humans can experience and it shows that going through hardship, struggle, & adversity together builds the strongest units.

Once Leach gets this right, our program will be unbelievably fun to play for

[ShotgunDawg]

Exactly. And that concept doesn't really matter when you play for a TT or WSU, but it absolutely does when you play for a school in the SEC. When our guys go play in the NFL, it makes us look good for them to plug MSU every chance they get (like a Dak, for example). Not having those type of guys, and that type of player-program nostalgia and support will only hurt us long term...

Especially in recruiting...

You get through pride. Pride isn't build without a program based on pride and overcoming adversity.

We can't beat Bama on talent. The only way we can beat them is to be more discipline and play together better. Leach is doing that

[bluelightstar]

The most fun any player can ever have is to win, have structure, and get better as a human.

There's a reason that the bond between soldiers that went to war together is among the closest bonds that humans can experience and it shows that going through hardship, struggle, & adversity together builds the strongest units.

Once Leach gets this right, our program will be unbelievably fun to play for

But his own former players generally don?t say that.

[chef dixon]

My problem with the latest 3 are they were brought in under him. That's a red flag to me. Its gonna be ugly for a while.

[ShotgunDawg]

But his own former players generally don?t say that.

You have a link on that? I haven't hear that

[ShotgunDawg]

Ponder this...

Why do you think Leach has the best coaching tree in football? You think it's just because of scheme or other stuff as well?

[ShotgunDawg]

My problem with the latest 3 are they were brought in under him. That's a red flag to me. Its gonna be ugly for a while.

ehh. first year. Not sure how well he knew them

[MaroonBelle]

You get through pride. Pride isn't build without a program based on pride and overcoming adversity.

We can't beat Bama on talent. The only way we can beat them is to be more discipline and play together better. Leach is doing that

You think Leach is gonna out discipline Saban? Please. But you know what? Far as I know Saban's players still like him. There are ways and there are ways. We'll see how Leach's ways work here.

[Cowbell]

Everyone knows the "Don't widen the plate" story don't they? Leach ain't widening the plate for anyone. That can still work even in todays soft, me first culture.
Yes, you just have to recruit a majority old school kids from old school homes. And I am fine with that.

[PendingTransaction]

Just admit it. The program is a total shat show. Everyone not a MSU Homer sees it and is saying it.

[Commercecomet24]

Yes, you just have to recruit a majority old school kids from old school homes. And I am fine with that.

Surprisingly there's still a lot of kids out there who want to be coached hard. Just have to find them, but when you do get those type players you have players that are 100% bought in.

[ShotgunDawg]

Just admit it. The program is a total shat show. Everyone not a MSU Homer sees it and is saying it.

So you don't think Leach knows what he's doing?

What does it matter what non MSU fans think?

Here's a wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Leach_(American_football_coach)

[bluelightstar]

So you don't think Leach knows what he's doing?

What does it matter what non MSU fans think?

I'm not ready to say that. But, as you like to say, this isn't a video game. The fact that Leach was successful somewhere else doesn't automatically mean it's going to translate. Coaches change jobs and fail at the new school all the time; it's why hiring is a total crap shoot. Your methods don't always translate because you're dealing with different players, different opponents, and different circumstances. And yes, the perception nationally right now is that we're a dumpster fire.

[bluelightstar]

You have a link on that? I haven't hear that

examples

https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest/washington-state-cougars/mike-leach-isnt-coach-youd-play

https://theathletic.com/499415/2018/09/03/love-him-or-loathe-him-theres-more-than-one-side-to-mike-leach/ [In this one, Connor Halliday explains that they didn't like Leach when he played for him ("typical of WSU alums," the article says) but does acknowledge that he likes him better after leaving the program.

[MaroonBelle]

Quite simply tell me this. If you were a prospect from the state of MS and you were looking at Ole Miss and us, who would you want to play for? It is that simple because those are the kids we are fighting for. You have Joey over there getting fined for standing up for his team and players against the SEC and then you have Kylin getting kicked off the team, a mass exodus mid season and a coach out there saying "we'll be glad to get rid of some more players".

Regardless of whether they should or not, optics matter. And kids (see local heroes, regardless of whether you think they are) in-state leaving the program and giving bad reports will matter.

[ShotgunDawg]

examples

https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest/washington-state-cougars/mike-leach-isnt-coach-youd-play

https://theathletic.com/499415/2018/09/03/love-him-or-loathe-him-theres-more-than-one-side-to-mike-leach/ [In this one, Connor Halliday explains that they didn't like Leach when he played for him ("typical of WSU alums," the article says) but does acknowledge that he likes him better after leaving the program.

I can understand that.

The best coaches I ever played for weren’t always fun to play for, although I did have pride due to knowing that we were doing things differently, however, the fact that the player insinuates that he appreciated a Leach after he left, is very telling as to how Leach coaches.

[ShotgunDawg]

Quite simply tell me this. If you were a prospect from the state of MS and you were looking at Ole Miss and us, who would you want to play for? It is that simple because those are the kids we are fighting for. You have Joey over there getting fined for standing up for his team and players against the SEC and then you have Kylin getting kicked off the team, a mass exodus mid season and a coach out there saying "we'll be glad to get rid of some more players".

Regardless of whether they should or not, optics matter. And kids (see local heroes, regardless of whether you think they are) in-state leaving the program and giving bad reports will matter.

Sure in the short term those kids may choose OM, but in the long term, if Leach is winning, they’re coming here

[PendingTransaction]

So you don't think Leach knows what he's doing?

What does it matter what non MSU fans think?

Here's a wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Leach_(American_football_coach)

Honestly, I think Leach's scheme is a relic. I think his coaching style and tact will not fly with southern players. Even worse, I don't think he has the capacity to alter either enough to run a successful program here.

And for God's sakes, please stop with the fallacy that he is going to miraculously recruit all of these salt of the earth, SEC caliber players. Where are they...at the MAIS Christian Academies? After the next three "disastrous air raid shows" there will be more attrition and possibly some big decommits.

[ShotgunDawg]

Honestly, I think Leach's scheme is a relic. I think his coaching style and tact will not fly with southern players. Even worse, I don't think he has the capacity to alter either enough to run a successful program here.

And for God's sakes, please stop with the fallacy that he is going to miraculously recruit all of these salt of the earth, SEC caliber players. Where are they...at the MAIS Christian Academies? After the next three "disastrous air raid shows" there will be more attrition and possibly some big decommits.

We’ll see

[Santiago]

Quite simply tell me this. If you were a prospect from the state of MS and you were looking at Ole Miss and us, who would you want to play for? It is that simple because those are the kids we are fighting for. You have Joey over there getting fined for standing up for his team and players against the SEC and then you have Kylin getting kicked off the team, a mass exodus mid season and a coach out there saying "we'll be glad to get rid of some more players".

Regardless of whether they should or not, optics matter. And kids (see local heroes, regardless of whether you think they are) in-state leaving the program and giving bad reports will matter.

You mean, like Ole Miss having 2 decommits in the past 3 weeks, and just lost their only MS HS commit so far? And that we won head to head battles so far, for in state commits? I hear you saying TSUN looks great losing each week, and their coach is a good smarta$$ on twitter. They are going to also have transfers also at the end of this season. Some may be on the 2 deep. Lane also told a commit from Oxford to look elsewhere. Let the season play out.

[MaroonBelle]

Sure in the short term those kids may choose OM, but in the long term, if Leach is winning, they’re coming here

I guess it depends if you think 2 or 3 years is short term. I think OM is gonna kick our ass and be winning as soon as they can get some defensive talent in cause that offense WORKS, they just need a decent defense. Even their losing looks fun right now. So how long are we gonna lose waiting for him to clean house and get his guys in and are we gonna be able to make up for that lost time. I dunno.

"You mean, like Ole Miss having 2 decommits in the past 3 weeks, and just lost their only MS HS commit so far? And that we won head to head battles so far, for in state commits? I hear you saying TSUN looks great losing each week, and their coach is a good smarta$$ on twitter. They are going to also have transfers also at the end of this season. Some may be on the 2 deep. Let the season play out."

Our coach is a smart ass too. not just on twitter. we'll see if we hang on to our commits with all this shaking out right now.

[Lumpy Chucklelips]

Quite simply tell me this. If you were a prospect from the state of MS and you were looking at Ole Miss and us, who would you want to play for? It is that simple because those are the kids we are fighting for. You have Joey over there getting fined for standing up for his team and players against the SEC and then you have Kylin getting kicked off the team, a mass exodus mid season and a coach out there saying "we'll be glad to get rid of some more players".

Regardless of whether they should or not, optics matter. And kids (see local heroes, regardless of whether you think they are) in-state leaving the program and giving bad reports will matter.


Current commitments from in state:

OM - 1 juco
MSU - 11

[Matt3467]

You think Leach is gonna out discipline Saban? Please. But you know what? Far as I know Saban's players still like him. There are ways and there are ways. We'll see how Leach's ways work here.

Like and respect is different. I think more players respect him than like him. I seem to recall reading about players not liking Saban at all. I've read that there were several Dolphins players that came out and basically said they despised him.

I don't know about Leach but it's clear he will be respected. I think I did read somewhere that a former player said "players may not like Leach but he gets results."

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Just admit it. The program is a total shat show. Everyone not a MSU Homer sees it and is saying it.

The program became a mess the second the players realized Joe wouldn't discipline them. That mess manifested itself on the field last year. Now we're cutting out all the weeds from our yard and piling it up by the road and it's rehashing the fact our program is a mess because it's all out in the open for the neighbors to see. But this isn't Leachs' mess, he's just cleaning it up. Is he also making it worse than it has to be? Maybe, he's known as a hard ass and he doesn't care about perception. But he is cleaning it up, and he will end up with a 100% bought in roster that values hard work and listening to coaches.

[PendingTransaction]

The bottom line is, Leach has to change his scheme and coaching style or he will go the way of the "Father of the Air Raid," Hal Mumme. Hell Hal couldn't make the cut at fricking Belhaven.

[ShotgunDawg]

I guess it depends if you think 2 or 3 years is short term. I think OM is gonna kick our ass and be winning as soon as they can get some defensive talent in cause that offense WORKS, they just need a decent defense. Even their losing looks fun right now. So how long are we gonna lose waiting for him to clean house and get his guys in and are we gonna be able to make up for that lost time. I dunno.

"You mean, like Ole Miss having 2 decommits in the past 3 weeks, and just lost their only MS HS commit so far? And that we won head to head battles so far, for in state commits? I hear you saying TSUN looks great losing each week, and their coach is a good smarta$$ on twitter. They are going to also have transfers also at the end of this season. Some may be on the 2 deep. Let the season play out."

Our coach is a smart ass too. not just on twitter. we'll see if we hang on to our commits with all this shaking out right now.

You bring up good questions, but I can't currently answer them as I've never seen Leach's full process.

What I do know is that this is his 3rd time to take over a program, 3rd time going through this exact situation, & the first 2 times ended up with the best teams those schools have ever had.

Currently, this staff is recruiting well. We'll see how it goes

[ShotgunDawg]

Like and respect is different. I think more players respect him than like him. I seem to recall reading about players not liking Saban at all. I've read that there were several Dolphins players that came out and basically said they despised him.

I don't know about Leach but it's clear he will be respected. I think I did read somewhere that a former player said "players may not like Leach but he gets results."

Good post.

Everyone loves the coach when the win.

If you want an accurate assessment, let's hear from Bama 2007 players

[JoseBrown]

Arkansas players seem to actually like their coach and enjoy playing for him. You can clean house all you want but you have to wonder what this looks like to prospects.

Playing time.

[ShotgunDawg]

Greg McElroy on Saban in 2007


https://www.sbnation.com/a/2007-college-football-season/alabama-ulm-nick-saban
https://i.imgur.com/dVy3bIV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4ruX5qq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FKOUhba.jpg

[confucius say]

Honestly, I think Leach's scheme is a relic. I think his coaching style and tact will not fly with southern players. Even worse, I don't think he has the capacity to alter either enough to run a successful program here.

And for God's sakes, please stop with the fallacy that he is going to miraculously recruit all of these salt of the earth, SEC caliber players. Where are they...at the MAIS Christian Academies? After the next three "disastrous air raid shows" there will be more attrition and possibly some big decommits.

Southern players? Not sure what you mean here, please elaborate, but maybe like Texas? Where 90% of his Texas tech players were from.

[ShotgunDawg]

Southern players? Not sure what you mean here, please elaborate, but maybe like Texas? Where 90% of his Texas tech players were from.

yeah. His post makes no sense.

We have real Leach haters, which is fine, that will abandon all logic to make a point, which is not fine.

[PendingTransaction]

Southern players? Not sure what you mean here, please elaborate, but maybe like Texas? Where 90% of his Texas tech players were from.

I mean the areas were MSU gets 90% of its players, and it ain't Texas. You know like nearly 50% of the incoming class will come from MS.

[confucius say]

yeah. His post makes no sense.

We have real Leach haters, which is fine, that will abandon all logic to make a point, which is not fine.

I think the question is whether leach can get enough of his guys (disciplined, team first, no weed) that are also sec caliber athletes.

[confucius say]

I mean the areas were MSU gets 90% of its players, and it ain't Texas. You know like nearly 50% of the incoming class will come from MS.

Are you saying Texas players are not southern players but MS players are?

[Cowbell]

Surprisingly there's still a lot of kids out there who want to be coached hard. Just have to find them, but when you do get those type players you have players that are 100% bought in.
I agree 100% - I have always felt that this is part of the reason For Sabans success. He filters through the 4 & 5 stars who have the right attitude.

[Cowbell]

Are you saying Texas players are not southern players but MS players are?

Not really following this back and forth but Texas high school players are 100% not MS, LA, AL, GA players. Total different style and total different atmospheres.

[PendingTransaction]

I agree 100% - I have always felt that this is part of the reason For Sabans success. He filters through the 4 & 5 stars who have the right attitude.

That's the recipe...Leach needs to filter through the 4 & 5 stars and get the ones with the right attitude. In 2023 we will win the Natty!!!

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

I agree 100% - I have always felt that this is part of the reason For Sabans success. He filters through the 4 & 5 stars who have the right attitude.

Vs Butch Jones at TN who got top 15 classes all the time, but produced no on field results or draft picks because they were the kinds of 4*s other programs dropped after seeing they didn't have what it takes mentally

[ArrowDawg]

Norman Dale has come to town. Give it time...

What made Mullen's program special was culture. To win big, we've got to reset that.

I realize it feels like a toe nail is currently being extracted from your body, but to build the program & team we want, it's necessary. This is a way way bigger deal than our scheme.



Norman Dale did it in one season, and we already had the football program we could have ever hoped for before Cohen started hiring people. This notion that we're going to tear it all down and build it back up into something even better than it was under Mullen is completely ludicrous. This is the SEC, and we don't recruit well enough for that. We already had the foundation and the philosophy that suited our program best, and we threw it away.

[StarkVegasSteve]

You can talk recruiting and who the "real South" is all you want. It doesn't make one 17 of a difference because here's the simple facts, winning solves all problems. Dan was an ass to 95% of our players, but they'd go to war for him. Hev was an ass to 100% of our players but they'd run through a brick wall for him. Program toughness and pride is what we had under Dan and what we lost under Joe. He might've been a likable guy, but he was a HORRENDOUS HC and program CEO. Leach is trying to bring that back and I applaud him for that. Will it work? Who the hell knows, but I can guarandamntee you another 2 to 3 years of Moorhead would've had cultural problems that make what we're going through now a cakewalk. I'm on record as saying I don't think the pure air raid can work, but that's a discussion for another time and a year from now. Right now, the discussion needs to be who are going to be the leaders on our team. I've heard too many stories to count of the lax program attitude under Moorhead, enough to make you physically ill. I haven't heard any of that under Mike. Look, if there's fans that want to jump ship then that is completely fine. I, along with many others, were here before the Dan Mullen bandwagon fans came aboard, we'll be here after they're gone, and we'll still be here when they try to rejoin us. Whether that be with Leach or another coach.

[Irondawg]

There is no secret sauce for most college teams - you can take a few chances and maybe they pan out and maybe they don’t. Dontae Jones helped us get to a final 4 but he would have never lasted if he had come in as a freshman and barely made it through his one year here.

But you can’t have a lot of those types or you have what Jackie and Stans had at the end of their tenure. The trouble is finding enough guys that are quality people and quality athletes that you can get to Starkville. That’s the hard part and I think was a huge reason Mullen was so eager to get out.

[ShotgunDawg]

Norman Dale did it in one season, and we already had the football program we could have ever hoped for before Cohen started hiring people. This notion that we're going to tear it all down and build it back up into something even better than it was under Mullen is completely ludicrous. This is the SEC, and we don't recruit well enough for that. We already had the foundation and the philosophy that suited our program best, and we threw it away.

I don't disagree that Cohen is to blame for most of this, but Leach didn't turn the team culture into a dumpster fire. He's just having to work with what he's got.

We've all blamed Cohen ad nauseum for the Moorhead hire, but at some point you just realize that there is nothing more we can do about it. What's done is done and now we only can worry about what to do next. And next has to be cleaning up the mess, which involves throwing out the trash

[basedog]

There is no secret sauce for most college teams - you can take a few chances and maybe they pan out and maybe they don’t. Dontae Jones helped us get to a final 4 but he would have never lasted if he had come in as a freshman and barely made it through his one year here.

But you can’t have a lot of those types or you have what Jackie and Stans had at the end of their tenure. The trouble is finding enough guys that are quality people and quality athletes that you can get to Starkville. That’s the hard part and I think was a huge reason Mullen was so eager to get out.

I agree, no Doubt DM doesn't have to work as hard as he did in Florida as Msu. We will and we have won since we hired JWS, but it's a up and down thing winning at StarkVegas.

I just hope Leach will work hard and recruit "his players". I think it's harder to win at Msu than TT and WSU, because of the conference is much tougher and way more passionate than those other two conferences.

[Cowbell]

Vs Butch Jones at TN who got top 15 classes all the time, but produced no on field results or draft picks because they were the kinds of 4*s other programs dropped after seeing they didn't have what it takes mentally
Yep - add Texas And USC to that list as well

[ShotgunDawg]

You can talk recruiting and who the "real South" is all you want. It doesn't make one 17 of a difference because here's the simple facts, winning solves all problems. Dan was an ass to 95% of our players, but they'd go to war for him. Hev was an ass to 100% of our players but they'd run through a brick wall for him. Program toughness and pride is what we had under Dan and what we lost under Joe. He might've been a likable guy, but he was a HORRENDOUS HC and program CEO. Leach is trying to bring that back and I applaud him for that. Will it work? Who the hell knows, but I can guarandamntee you another 2 to 3 years of Moorhead would've had cultural problems that make what we're going through now a cakewalk. I'm on record as saying I don't think the pure air raid can work, but that's a discussion for another time and a year from now. Right now, the discussion needs to be who are going to be the leaders on our team. I've heard too many stories to count of the lax program attitude under Moorhead, enough to make you physically ill. I haven't heard any of that under Mike. Look, if there's fans that want to jump ship then that is completely fine. I, along with many others, were here before the Dan Mullen bandwagon fans came aboard, we'll be here after they're gone, and we'll still be here when they try to rejoin us. Whether that be with Leach or another coach.

This is an outstanding post. 100% agree.

Leach didn't cause this. He's just having to clean it up

[Todd4State]

LOL at the people wanting us to be a program that "our players like" who probably also railed Joe for a lack of discipline. Which was the result of him trying to have a program that our players liked.

Some of our issues on offense are discipline/sloppiness related- the WR's in particular.

Also- LOL at the people that think that we won't recruit Mississippi well just by looking at the rankings this year and the ins that we have for the class of 2022 already.

Some of our fans are so bad about talking out of both sides of their mouth. "We want a disciplined hard working team! But we want to the players to have fun all the time and Leach is wrong for kicking players off the team that don't follow the rules!"

This is the exact same shit from our fans that happened with Cohen as the baseball coach. The year before we hired Cohen "Our team is soft!" And then we hire Cohen "I don't like how he cusses at our players and he bunts too much."

The ONLY thing I have ever figured out about MSU fans is they want the exact OPPOSITE of whatever it is that MSU has at that moment. It seems like all of our fans want is some quick fix where the coach calls some cute play- but involving a QB run of course- otherwise that's going to get bitched about- to get us to the Liberty Bowl.

And before the "But....but....but Arkansas and Kentucky!" posts come- Arkansas had literally nowhere to go but up. They had completely turned on Morris- so of course they had nowhere to go but up. Beating us is about like beating Alabama for MSU. Stoops has been at UK for years and he has had several good teams now. Them beating us in Lexington shouldn't be a surprise since we haven't won there since 2014.

In the offseason we had fans like "I know there is going to be an adjustment". We have Leach's track record at Texas Tech and Wazzu to show that there is an adjustment period. AND YET we still have idiot stupid ass fans like "I don't know about this".

[ShotgunDawg]

LOL at the people wanting us to be a program that "our players like" who probably also railed Joe for a lack of discipline. Which was the result of him trying to have a program that our players liked.

Some of our issues on offense are discipline/sloppiness related- the WR's in particular.

Also- LOL at the people that think that we won't recruit Mississippi well just by looking at the rankings this year and the ins that we have for the class of 2022 already.

Some of our fans are so bad about talking out of both sides of their mouth. "We want a disciplined hard working team! But we want to the players to have fun all the time and Leach is wrong for kicking players off the team that don't follow the rules!"

This is the exact same shit from our fans that happened with Cohen as the baseball coach. The year before we hired Cohen "Our team is soft!" And then we hire Cohen "I don't like how he cusses at our players and he bunts too much."

The ONLY thing I have ever figured out about MSU fans is they want the exact OPPOSITE of whatever it is that MSU has at that moment. It seems like all of our fans want is some quick fix where the coach calls some cute play- but involving a QB run of course- otherwise that's going to get bitched about- to get us to the Liberty Bowl.

And before the "But....but....but Arkansas and Kentucky!" posts come- Arkansas had literally nowhere to go but up. They had completely turned on Morris- so of course they had nowhere to go but up. Beating us is about like beating Alabama for MSU. Stoops has been at UK for years and he has had several good teams now. Them beating us in Lexington shouldn't be a surprise since we haven't won there since 2014.

In the offseason we had fans like "I know there is going to be an adjustment". We have Leach's track record at Texas Tech and Wazzu to show that there is an adjustment period. AND YET we still have idiot stupid ass fans like "I don't know about this".

MSU fans just want a good meal, but most have no idea how it's cooked.

Can't blame them. Unless you've played or been a part of a sport at a high level, how would you know?

[LC Dawg]

Does Leach really suspend or kick off players for failing one drug test? Has he done this at other stops?

[Turfdawg67]

You can talk recruiting and who the "real South" is all you want. It doesn't make one 17 of a difference because here's the simple facts, winning solves all problems. Dan was an ass to 95% of our players, but they'd go to war for him. Hev was an ass to 100% of our players but they'd run through a brick wall for him. Program toughness and pride is what we had under Dan and what we lost under Joe. He might've been a likable guy, but he was a HORRENDOUS HC and program CEO. Leach is trying to bring that back and I applaud him for that. Will it work? Who the hell knows, but I can guarandamntee you another 2 to 3 years of Moorhead would've had cultural problems that make what we're going through now a cakewalk. I'm on record as saying I don't think the pure air raid can work, but that's a discussion for another time and a year from now. Right now, the discussion needs to be who are going to be the leaders on our team. I've heard too many stories to count of the lax program attitude under Moorhead, enough to make you physically ill. I haven't heard any of that under Mike. Look, if there's fans that want to jump ship then that is completely fine. I, along with many others, were here before the Dan Mullen bandwagon fans came aboard, we'll be here after they're gone, and we'll still be here when they try to rejoin us. Whether that be with Leach or another coach.

I like your posts, but man, how about a new paragraph or a line-break every once in a while. But don't be like Shotgun and have a line-break after every single sentence. Lolz

[ShotgunDawg]

I like your posts, but man, how about a new paragraph or a line-break every once in a while. But don't be like Shotgun and have a line-break after every single sentence. Lolz

What

Are

You

Talking

About?

[basedog]

What

Are

You

Talking

About?

You do reply like Leach's offense spread on the O Line***

[Percho]

How many years will it take us to be competitive with UK and UPig?

I bet if you played them, "today," you would see a different and better team!

[Percho]

What happened for the new coach is he did not have the spring to weed the chaff.

[Irondawg]

This whole conversation would be totally different if we had pulled out wins vs Ark and KY and we had chances to win both despite the turnovers. Even if we had just barely won.

Right now we all wish we would run the ball against that 3-8 look but we also have to remember that Leach hasn’t probably had a qb play this poorly for a while. I’d love to know what the offensive coaches talk about when they watch the past 3 films

[Percho]

Arkansas players seem to actually like their coach and enjoy playing for him. You can clean house all you want but you have to wonder what this looks like to prospects.

Nothing wrong with a little self weeding. I'm positive Coach doesn't mind a player thinking I do not want to go there if they do not have the character of wanting to grow up and be all they can be.

[ShotgunDawg]

You do reply like Leach's offense spread on the O Line***

That's pretty good

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

You do reply like Leach's offense spread on the O Line***

He's method acting being Leach to get into his head better. He'll bring the results to us in a 14 post series

[Dawgology]

Arkansas players seem to actually like their coach and enjoy playing for him. You can clean house all you want but you have to wonder what this looks like to prospects.

If we were 4-0 all the players would love Leach. How you handle adversity is what separates the men from the boys. We will be fine.

[Percho]

Here is what some idiot writer said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/554740-10-reasons-why-vince-lombardi-would-not-make-it-as-a-head-coach-in-the-nfl-today

How many believe VL would not be a Super Bowl winning coach today in the NFL.

[Irondawg]

Are the guys we’ve seen being leaders - Payton, Jones, Thompson, Brule saying anything on Twitter?

[Percho]

LOL at the people wanting us to be a program that "our players like" who probably also railed Joe for a lack of discipline. Which was the result of him trying to have a program that our players liked.

Some of our issues on offense are discipline/sloppiness related- the WR's in particular.

Also- LOL at the people that think that we won't recruit Mississippi well just by looking at the rankings this year and the ins that we have for the class of 2022 already.

Some of our fans are so bad about talking out of both sides of their mouth. "We want a disciplined hard working team! But we want to the players to have fun all the time and Leach is wrong for kicking players off the team that don't follow the rules!"

This is the exact same shit from our fans that happened with Cohen as the baseball coach. The year before we hired Cohen "Our team is soft!" And then we hire Cohen "I don't like how he cusses at our players and he bunts too much."

The ONLY thing I have ever figured out about MSU fans is they want the exact OPPOSITE of whatever it is that MSU has at that moment. It seems like all of our fans want is some quick fix where the coach calls some cute play- but involving a QB run of course- otherwise that's going to get bitched about- to get us to the Liberty Bowl.

And before the "But....but....but Arkansas and Kentucky!" posts come- Arkansas had literally nowhere to go but up. They had completely turned on Morris- so of course they had nowhere to go but up. Beating us is about like beating Alabama for MSU. Stoops has been at UK for years and he has had several good teams now. Them beating us in Lexington shouldn't be a surprise since we haven't won there since 2014.

In the offseason we had fans like "I know there is going to be an adjustment". We have Leach's track record at Texas Tech and Wazzu to show that there is an adjustment period. AND YET we still have idiot stupid ass fans like "I don't know about this".

Excellent post

[R2Dawg]

You think Leach is gonna out discipline Saban? Please. But you know what? Far as I know Saban's players still like him. There are ways and there are ways. We'll see how Leach's ways work here.

Saban caters to his trouble players all the time. The media is just too scared to talk about it. Saban rides his coaches way more than players which is typical for the CEO position.

[BuckyIsAB****]

You can always tell when adversity strikes

[Santiago]

You can always tell when adversity strikes

I assume the players remaining are ready to play.
But if anything it should be easy to sell recruits playing time.

[Cowbell]

MSU fans just want a good meal, but most have no idea how it's cooked.

Can't blame them. Unless you've played or been a part of a sport at a high level, how would you know?
You never have described yourself so well in a post.

[StateDawg44]

Are the guys we’ve seen being leaders - Payton, Jones, Thompson, Brule saying anything on Twitter?

What could they say that would make you feel better?

Making a post or statement on Twitter doesn't make you a "leader". (Example: K. Hill)

[defiantdog]

You never have described yourself so well in a post.

Didn't shotgun play football?

[defiantdog]

What happened for the new coach is he did not have the spring to weed the chaff.

The offense sucks..... Leach is finding the players that will make it better. We don't see defensive players leaving the team for a reason.

[bulldawg28]

Didn't shotgun play football?

John Madden EA sports Sega edition.

[HancockCountyDog]

The offense sucks..... Leach is finding the players that will make it better. We don't see defensive players leaving the team for a reason.

To be fair, the defensive players are being put in a system that allows them to be successful. If we ran a read and react defense and teams were gashing us, I don't think players would be happy.

Look - if you put Trevor Lawrence in the triple option offense, and the team was struggling, is it really Lawrence's fault that the coach is running the wrong system for his skill set? If he was getting the shit kicked out of him, while losing - you think it's the player's attitude that is the problem?

You pay the coach millions of dollars to win games, this year. Not win games 2 years from now with "his players". If we have OL that know we can pound the rock and score points running a certain type of offense, but instead we are running an offense that doesn't allow our players to use their talent, you think it is the player's fault for wanting to leave? That is nuts.

If Mullen had asked Relf to play like Chris Leak and pass the ball as opposed to play like Tebow, that would have been nuts. Mullen to his credit, adjusted his gameplan to use the strength of his players to win games. We ended up pounding the shit out of several teams that year, including the bears (one of my favorite egg bowls ever) all because Mullen used his team's talent to their best use. That is all some of us are asking Leach to do.

We want him to be successful today, not wait 2 years.

[ShotgunDawg]

John Madden EA sports Sega edition.

Damn good at it too

[Indndawg]

Yep, you can start out tight and loosen things up as you go, once you have established your culture, but if you start out loose you can never, ever tighten it up, it never works that way.

I've heard that quote a 1000x from my fam.

[Percho]

How about the players trying to learn the, "skill set," the coaches are teaching instead of exercising their other, "skill set," on twitter.

Old dog new trick thing.