Kylin Update

[ShotgunDawg]

Good. If what I've heard is true, he doesn't deserve any chance to come back

https://twitter.com/RossDellenger/status/1321139000137187328?s=20

[StarkVegasSteve]

If what I was told has any truth to it, there's no way back for him.

[ShotgunDawg]

If what I was told has any truth to it, there's no way back for him.
Agree

[MadDawg]

Now that it's confirmed he's gone, it's time for someone to spill the details. What exactly did Hill do after the Kentucky game?

[R2Dawg]

If true Hill can't throw back like that but I also feel for some of the players who want to win now, not wait for 3 years when they are gone. They see a lot of stuff that just isn't working and maybe some playing where they should not. They like Leach as seen what has worked in the past and want to have it work again. They and we have never seen us look that bad against UK. We pound UK on the ground all the time. We scored 0? Easy to understand the frustration.

[Duckdog]

Spill the damn beans already

[Maroonthirteen]

Kylin says he never knew he left. its game week.

Someone may want to pump the brakes.

[FISHDAWG]

3225

something is kinda weird with this twitter post ... I assume it was Kylin but it's not on his page because he was answering someone else

[Duckdog]

Well every state media bro is reporting it. Kylin is just trying to save face. What a little bitch

[ShotgunDawg]

Well every state media bro is reporting it. Kylin is just trying to save face. What a little bitch

Ego is too big. He's trying to play it off.

[Mobile Bay]

3225

something is kinda weird with this twitter post ... I assume it was Kylin but it's not on his page because he was answering someone else

I read that as he was kicked off.

[Johnson85]

I read that as he was kicked off.

That was my interpretation also. Or at least a 50/50 guess between "I haven't quit yet" and "I didn't leave, I was kicked off"

[parabrave]

Until either the School or Leach says he is gone then he is still on the team. Even if you have vids of him moving all of his shiet into mommas house he is still on the team. Dam some of y'all are worse than a bunch of hens picking at corn.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Until either the School or Leach says he is gone then he is still on the team. Even if you have vids of him moving all of his shiet into mommas house he is still on the team. Dam some of y'all are worse than a bunch of hens picking at corn.

He's gone. Thanks for memories. Let's move on with Marks and Johnson

[ShotgunDawg]

FWIW, Kylin Hill is still listed on the roster and Mayden, Shrader, and Pendley are not.

So someone is updating the roster in real time and has chosen to leave Hill on the roster

https://hailstate.com/sports/football/roster

[BrunswickDawg]

https://twitter.com/scoutstever/status/1321167853496786954?s=21

[Matt3467]

Glad that diva is gone. Btw attitude and play aside if what he did is true then he deserved to be disciplined anyway. Hope Mayden succeeds somewhere. Same for Garrett.

[ShotgunDawg]

Glad that diva is gone. Btw attitude and play aside if what he did is true then he deserved to be disciplined anyway. Hope Mayden succeeds somewhere. Same for Garrett.

He may eventually be gone, but he's not gone yet.

[FISHDAWG]

where in the Hell is IYOK ... maybe he's just serving a suspension and Leach & staff won't comment.

[Turfdawg67]

If true Hill can't throw back like that but I also feel for some of the players who want to win now, not wait for 3 years when they are gone. They see a lot of stuff that just isn't working and maybe some playing where they should not. They like Leach as seen what has worked in the past and want to have it work again. They and we have never seen us look that bad against UK. We pound UK on the ground all the time. We scored 0? Easy to understand the frustration.

THEN YOU DON'T HIRE MIKE LEACH AND HIS AIR RAID!!!

[StarkVegasSteve]

https://twitter.com/scoutstever/status/1321167853496786954?s=21

This is getting ridiculous. I hate bashing players and try to make it a point to not do it, but my god this is same crap different chapter. He didn't get his desired sympathy so now he's gonna change course. We need to be done with it at this point.

[ShotgunDawg]

This is getting ridiculous. I hate bashing players and try to make it a point to not do it, but my god this is same crap different chapter. He didn't get his desired sympathy so now he's gonna change course. We need to be done with it at this point.

This is also what happens when the coach doesn't address it. Rumors run rampant

[Homedawg]

This is getting ridiculous. I hate bashing players and try to make it a point to not do it, but my god this is same crap different chapter. He didn't get his desired sympathy so now he's gonna change course. We need to be done with it at this point.

Last I heard he was still on the team. W that said, his locker was cleared out following the UK game. I have no idea what kylin was trying to do w his tweet other than say, "hey I didn't clean out my locker, they did it for me". With all that said, I, personally would be shocked if played again.

[R2Dawg]

THEN YOU DON'T HIRE MIKE LEACH AND HIS AIR RAID!!!

Dude, no need for ALL CAPS. I get it and know that. I was posting from a players viewpoint if you were in some of their shoes. Some of yall need a chill pill!!!!!!

[HancockCountyDog]

Dude, no need for ALL CAPS. I get it and know that. I was posting from a players viewpoint if you were in some of their shoes. Some of yall need a chill pill!!!!!!

Yeah - its easy to say "wait until Leach gets his guys in here" unless you are on the team and have worked your ass off all summer and this fall only to have your coach not run an offense that could beat the team you are playing.

Imagine having Dan Marino as your QB and you tell him, sorry Dan - I run the triple option. So either get on board, or screw off.

I think it is so easy for some of our fans to crap on the players who really work extremely hard, basically year round and when they are frustrated to be losing to Kentucky in a pretty embarrassing fashion when they know they have the talent to line up and whip UK's ass with a power spread option running game. I mean I feel for the seniors who have worked hard for 4 years to have a senior season and not be put in a position to win games for the sake of an offensive system.

[Activated Alpha]

So with a thread on a K Hill update no one actually knows what is going on other than his locker was cleaned out and we are fairly confident that he won't play again. He looked upset after getting clocked in the KY game, but that wasn't necessarily his fault that he suffered a concussion. However, getting mouthy with trainers and coaching staff when they are required to play it safe following concussion protocol shouldn't ever be allowed. Does anyone actually know what was done or said or is it all conjecture?

[TNDawg35]

Like stated above, he is trying to save face for himself and NFL. He didn’t get the sympathy he wanted and everyone begging him back, and also got word from a source in the league that a certain team didn’t think too highly of him that he is reversing course.

I still don’t look for him to play. He wants this to be about State/Leach and make
It where they kicked him off for nothing. Everyone in the locker room and most people in the know realize what happened and see it for what it is...

That’s why he won’t opt out. He is saying “oh I didn’t quit on my team, Leach kicked me off...”

Yet is not bright enough to realize scouts y’all to the head coach/position coach also...

[TNDawg35]

So with a thread on a K Hill update no one actually knows what is going on other than his locker was cleaned out and we are fairly confident that he won't play again. He looked upset after getting clocked in the KY game, but that wasn't necessarily his fault that he suffered a concussion. However, getting mouthy with trainers and coaching staff when they are required to play it safe following concussion protocol shouldn't ever be allowed. Does anyone actually know what was done or said or is it all conjecture?

That was Arkansas game he got his shit knocked off. Then he got mouthy with trainers and caused some people you don’t cuss...

Did same thing in KY game and ran his mouth after every touch and cussed people you don’t cuss including people teammates. (Go back and watch him at KY. He got every time after a run or catch and was mouthing and throwing arms and shit. Even Cole Cubilic saw it)

[Todd4State]

Well every state media bro is reporting it. Kylin is just trying to save face. What a little bitch

Yeah. He knows he screwed up.

[Todd4State]

Like stated above, he is trying to save face for himself and NFL. He didn’t get the sympathy he wanted and everyone begging him back, and also got word from a source in the league that a certain team didn’t think too highly of him that he is reversing course.

I still don’t look for him to play. He wants this to be about State/Leach and make
It where they kicked him off for nothing. Everyone in the locker room and most people in the know realize what happened and see it for what it is...

That’s why he won’t opt out. He is saying “oh I didn’t quit on my team, Leach kicked me off...”

Yet is not bright enough to realize scouts y’all to the head coach/position coach also...

Unfortunately for him NFL scouts will find out the truth.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Yeah - its easy to say "wait until Leach gets his guys in here" unless you are on the team and have worked your ass off all summer and this fall only to have your coach not run an offense that could beat the team you are playing.

Imagine having Dan Marino as your QB and you tell him, sorry Dan - I run the triple option. So either get on board, or screw off.

I think it is so easy for some of our fans to crap on the players who really work extremely hard, basically year round and when they are frustrated to be losing to Kentucky in a pretty embarrassing fashion when they know they have the talent to line up and whip UK's ass with a power spread option running game. I mean I feel for the seniors who have worked hard for 4 years to have a senior season and not be put in a position to win games for the sake of an offensive system.

And all those players had to do was search Mike Leach on YouTube and realize that the days of running the ball were over. He's not going to change and never will. This is why I personally was against hiring a guy so married to a system. But I'm not turning this into another Leach thread. It's been discussed ad nauseam. The fact is these players had 6+ months to find a new program if they weren't happy or didn't like the system and there'd have been no hard feelings. But to now reverse course and act like they had no clue what they were getting into is just ridiculous. It's time to either get on the boat or get off. I hope we used the bye week to figure out who really wants to be here and by the looks of the transfers we did. I'm gonna support fully, and probably b**** at a few times, the players we got left. But if their hearts aren't in it then they need to find something else to occupy their time.

[Turfdawg67]

Dude, no need for ALL CAPS. I get it and know that. I was posting from a players viewpoint if you were in some of their shoes. Some of yall need a chill pill!!!!!!

Ha! No worries, I'm good. Just sick of all the posts about Leach changing, what he's been successful at for 20 yrs, four freaking games into his tenure. Not sure why I'm surprised though... this board is the king of overreactions. Hell, Dinkowitz at Missouri is a coach of the yr candidate, according to some, even after a fluke win vs LSU and a horrible loss to a crappy UT team.

[ShotgunDawg]

Unfortunately for him NFL scouts will find out the truth.

Correcto

[Lord McBuckethead]

Yeah - its easy to say "wait until Leach gets his guys in here" unless you are on the team and have worked your ass off all summer and this fall only to have your coach not run an offense that could beat the team you are playing.

Imagine having Dan Marino as your QB and you tell him, sorry Dan - I run the triple option. So either get on board, or screw off.

I think it is so easy for some of our fans to crap on the players who really work extremely hard, basically year round and when they are frustrated to be losing to Kentucky in a pretty embarrassing fashion when they know they have the talent to line up and whip UK's ass with a power spread option running game. I mean I feel for the seniors who have worked hard for 4 years to have a senior season and not be put in a position to win games for the sake of an offensive system.

Then throw a block and execute the damn offense. Hard work means jack shit if you cannot block 3 with 5 or if you cannot understand how to sit down in a damn zone defense or at the very least find the areas that are soft inside the zone. It is damn embarrassing. You had weeks to get ready for the 3-8 prevent defense and the players from QB down to the backup damn right guard cannot execute simple shit.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Hell even Spurrier changed up his system for a running back.

[Todd4State]

Hell even Spurrier changed up his system for a running back.

Huh? Spurrier had some of the top rushers in the SEC at Florida- Errict Rhett and Fred Taylor and for years his offense was primarily under center.

[Turfdawg67]

Huh? Spurrier had some of the top rushers in the SEC at Florida- Errict Rhett and Fred Taylor and for years his offense was primarily under center.

That's what he's saying. His Fun n Gun, pass happy offense, adapted to running because of the talent he had.

[BeardoMSU]

That's what he's saying. His Fun n Gun, pass happy offense, adapted to running because of the talent he had.

This^

But no, let's shit on the player first.

[TNDawg35]

That's what he's saying. His Fun n Gun, pass happy offense, adapted to running because of the talent he had.

But Kylin aren’t those guys. It would be different if we had freakin Hershel Walker. But we don’t. Kylin doesn’t have the break away speed or really know when to go N and S. He likes to dance, jump, and shit. Sometimes you have to put your head down go... Not try to truck someone right next to the sideline when the DB has done let up...

Leach is Leach. We all knew what we were getting when he was hired. He is a good coach and will be here. The JoMo era has everyone a little shy right now. Let Leach get the problems gone and get people who want to play for Mississippi State. He is already has one hell of a D Cordinator and I would throw the bank at him right now and lock his ass up.... if we don’t, someone will come calling come Dec. Just think what Arnet would do with LSU talent right now...

[Turfdawg67]

This^

But no, let's shit on the player first.


But Kylin aren’t those guys. It would be different if we had freakin Hershel Walker. But we don’t. Kylin doesn’t have the break away speed or really know when to go N and S. He likes to dance, jump, and shit. Sometimes you have to put your head down go... Not try to truck someone right next to the sideline when the DB has done let up...

Leach is Leach. We all knew what we were getting when he was hired. He is a good coach and will be here. The JoMo era has everyone a little shy right now. Let Leach get the problems gone and get people who want to play for Mississippi State. He is already has one hell of a D Cordinator and I would throw the bank at him right now and lock his ass up.... if we don’t, someone will come calling come Dec. Just think what Arnet would do with LSU talent right now...

I love ole Beardo, but he and you got what I was saying backwards, I think. And I'm not dissing KH, but I'm not that overly excited when he's in the game and we aren't playing New Mexico St or Vandy.

[BeardoMSU]

I love ole Beardo, but he and you got what I was saying backwards, I think. And I'm not dissing KH, but I'm not that overly excited when he's in the game and we aren't playing New Mexico St or Vandy.

Hey Turf, my bad. That post wasn't directed to you directly, but more to the general tone in the multiple threads discussing this very topic.

[StoneDawg]

Ha! No worries, I'm good. Just sick of all the posts about Leach changing, what he's been successful at for 20 yrs, four freaking games into his tenure. Not sure why I'm surprised though... this board is the king of overreactions. Hell, Dinkowitz at Missouri is a coach of the yr candidate, according to some, even after a fluke win vs LSU and a horrible loss to a crappy UT team.

Post of the year

[TNDawg35]

Hey Turf, my bad. That post wasn't directed to you directly, but more to the general tone in the multiple threads discussing this very topic.

Yea my bad. I understand you tho.

It’s just crazy some people act like this dude was the best back ever here. Hell I would have and so have many others, said that Aries should have played over him. Further more, honestly last yr, I would have gave Nick G more of KH carries. Gibson was a bruiser. I loved his running style. It wasn’t no dodge, dive, duck, dip, and dodging... its was 17 you here I come...

[FISHDAWG]

Post of the year

really? Define successful .... any conference championships or appearances in a conf championship game? Any division titles? ...... if not then successful is being defined as an average 7 win season

[ShotgunDawg]

really? Define successful .... any conference championships or appearances in a conf championship game? Any division titles? ...... if not then successful is being defined as an average 7 win season

Success is defined as the amount which you exceed the status quo or expectations. So yes, he's been successful to anyone with a brain.

[FISHDAWG]

Success is defined as the amount which you exceed the status quo or expectations. So yes, he's been successful to anyone with a brain.

then that is left up to personal interpretation and doesn't have a damn thing to do with a brain and thus the reason for discussion on a sports message board .... I personally don't define success as a 7 win season

I will say he's been very successful at making the covid thread go away tho .... most of us that appear to be dissatisfied with ML aren't really dissatisfied with having him as our coach at all ... we are just having a hard time understanding why he won't make use of what he has now to win until he gets his "players"

[ShotgunDawg]

then that is left up to personal interpretation and doesn't have a damn thing to do with a brain and thus the reason for discussion on a sports message board .... I personally don't define success as a 7 win season

Hey, go with it. I realize you don't like Leach and that's your right. Leach has won 11 games twice and 9 games 5 times.

So I'm not sure where the 7 game thing comes from. Did you just make that up?

[RiverCityDawg]

Success is defined as the amount which you exceed the status quo or expectations. So yes, he's been successful to anyone with a brain.

People that don't think Leach has been "successful" in his head coaching career are detached from reality and not worth engaging in discussion.

[FISHDAWG]

Hey, go with it. I realize you don't like Leach and that's your right. Leach has won 11 games twice and 9 games 5 times.

So I'm not sure where the 7 game thing comes from. Did you just make that up?

19 years = 140 wins = 7.36 wins per year .... and I do like and support Leach - just a little perturbed at his stubbornness is all

[StateDawg44]

People that don't think Leach has been "successful" in his head coaching career are detached from reality and not worth engaging in discussion.

What about MSU people who are hanging their hats on his wins at different schools and even more different conferences?

[ShotgunDawg]

19 years = 140 wins = 7.36 wins per year .... and I do like and support Leach - just a little perturbed at his stubbornness is all

Those 7.3 wins include 3 rebuilding projects and 2 of which aren't top 40 recruiters.

As for the stubbornness, it's been 4 games. 4 freaking games.

[RiverCityDawg]

What about MSU people who are hanging their hats on his wins at different schools and even more different conferences?

What about it?

[Really Clark?]

That's what he's saying. His Fun n Gun, pass happy offense, adapted to running because of the talent he had.

I think you are confusing changing an offense for a player vs calling plays and shifting philosophy within the playbook that fits his personnel better. Either for a season or for a game. Spurrier didn?t really change his offensive system. He called games differently because of personnel. HUGE difference. And as soon as he got the players to run what he wanted most of the time, he went right back. Now he did add and expand for and after the NFL. But that is what a coach should do but the basis of his offense was still within that So Car playbook his last year as well.

[StateDawg44]

What about it?


They seem just as detached from reality wouldn't you think? Just re-living glory days that didn't occur at MSU.

Seems very grounded.***

At this point, with what we've seen this season, it's no different than people who still supported and gave Moorhead the benefit of the doubt early on, when plenty of others were saying he was a bust early on.

DISCLAIMER:

I'm not saying Leach is a bust. But saying our coach had success previously doesn't mean shit if we still suck it up and are as one dimensional as almost any team I've ever watched.


Insert whatever your excuse is here:

[RiverCityDawg]

They seem just as detached from reality wouldn't you think? Just re-living glory days that didn't occur at MSU.

Seems very grounded.***

At this point, with what we've seen this season, it's no different than people who still supported and gave Moorhead the benefit of the doubt early on, when plenty of others were saying he was a bust early on.

DISCLAIMER:

I'm not saying Leach is a bust. But saying our coach had success previously doesn't mean shit if we still suck it up and are as one dimensional as almost any team I've ever watched.


Insert whatever your excuse is here:

I was merely responding to a discussion where someone was arguing that Leach hasn't been "successful".

As for your "what about" tangent, do you think a coach that has been successful at two different programs in two different conferences is more or less likely to be successful at a third program with similar disadvantages as the previous two? Obviously none of us know for sure whether it will work out long term, but between the two I think it is more likely, and value his body of work over a 3 game sample size in his first year, which also happens to be during a worldwide pandemic.

You are free to dismiss his coaching career entirely if you want to compare him to Moorhead because of 3 games. That just seems like a huge stretch.

Though probably needlessly premature, whether Leach will be successful at State or not is at least a worthwhile discussion, unlike whether Leach has been successful previously in his career which was the original point.

[StateDawg44]

I was merely responding to a discussion where someone was arguing that Leach hasn't been "successful".

As for your "what about" tangent, do you think a coach that has been successful at two different programs in two different conferences is more or less likely to be successful at a third program with similar disadvantages as the previous two? Obviously none of us know for sure whether it will work out long term, but between the two I think it is more likely, and value his body of work over a 3 game sample size in his first year, which also happens to be during a worldwide pandemic.

You are free to dismiss his coaching career entirely if you want to compare him to Moorhead because of 3 games. That just seems like a huge stretch.

Though probably needlessly premature, whether Leach will be successful at State or not is at least a worthwhile discussion, unlike whether Leach has been successful previously in his career which was the original point.

So you're saying the big -12 and pac-12 are good comps for playing in the SEC? Even Steven huh? Same talent all across the conferences right? Guess that's where we lose each other.

I agree, the jobs he had in those conferences line up with where MSU might line up in the pecking order of the SEC. You are right about that. Put him in the ACC, do you think he would have more success so far than he has this year in the SEC? Hypothetical, I know. No more hypothetical that clutching onto his career record.

I'm not comparing him to Moorhead. He is a better head coach than Moorhead. Try not to get caught up on that. I'm comparing the fan's reactions to Moorhead and Leach so far and how so many fans "saw the writing on the wall" on Moorhead with a slightly smaller sample size so far from Leach. For God's sake 'Gun is being the voice of reason for a lot of people so far this season.

If Leach had won a Natty at the previous schools he coached does that mean we should hang our hat on that too? Previous wins don't carry over to the next year or division or conference ya know?

I'll admit I supported Moorhead until the Tennessee game. I'll do the same if not more for Leach. But we can't get through this year fast enough at this point.

Bottom line, his wins at TT & WSU do MSU absolutely no good.

[Offshore Dawg]

Right or wrong this site has numerous posters that feel like they have to inject their opinion on every <17>ing thing discussed especially when they don't know jack shit about what they are talking about.

[Duckdog]

What about MSU people who are hanging their hats on his wins at different schools and even more different conferences?

The dumbasd is strong up in heras

[StateDawg44]

The dumbasd is strong up in heras

Nice to see where you fall on the topic.

[Coach34]

Those 7.3 wins include 3 rebuilding projects and 2 of which aren't top 40 recruiters.

As for the stubbornness, it's been 4 games. 4 freaking games.

This is not a true post. Texas Tech had not had a losing season in the last 7 years before Leach. They were 35-23 in the 5 years before Leach with a 24-15 conference record. They pushed Spike Dykes out because they wanted a coach to get them to the conference championship game. Leach didnt make it happen.

[confucius say]

really? Define successful .... any conference championships or appearances in a conf championship game? Any division titles? ...... if not then successful is being defined as an average 7 win season

So dan wasn't successful in his tenure here? Got it. Lord have mercy.

[FISHDAWG]

Those 7.3 wins include 3 rebuilding projects and 2 of which aren't top 40 recruiters.

As for the stubbornness, it's been 4 games. 4 freaking games.

how far into JoMo's season did it take you to realize he wasn't the guy ? Most of us saw it pretty quickly

[FISHDAWG]

So dan wasn't successful in his tenure here? Got it. Lord have mercy.

Dan succeeded in bringing us out of the cellar and getting us to bowl games but he really blew it on real opportunities ... so yes he had limited success to a degree but he was also a 1st time head coach for us.... ML has been a HC for 18 years before coming here - expectations should be a little higher for him and I would bet that Dan will win at least a division title in his first 19 years ...... If you want to say ML elevated WSU to average 7 win seasons and bowl games and consider that as success then go ahead .... We just have different opinions of success

[ShotgunDawg]

how far into JoMo's season did it take you to realize he wasn't the guy ? Most of us saw it pretty quickly

Joe didn't have 20 years of track record and Joe was also following Mullen so it made the regression so much easier to see.

At this point, I don't know what our offense players have been taught for 2 years.

As for the track record though, that's pretty elementary and obvious to understand

[Matt3467]

This is not a true post. Texas Tech had not had a losing season in the last 7 years before Leach. They were 35-23 in the 5 years before Leach with a 24-15 conference record. They pushed Spike Dykes out because they wanted a coach to get them to the conference championship game. Leach didnt make it happen.

I guess that depends on what your definition of rebuilding is. The way I see it Tech all through the 90's aside from two losing seasons they rode the fence line barely finishing above .500 with several seasons at .500. If that's successful to you then I guess. It's clear that Leach took Tech to the next level which they had never been at before.

In Spike's 13 years there he went 82-67. A .550 win percentage. Outside of two anomaly years where he won 9 games he never won more than 7.

Leach at Tech during 9 years went 84-43 .661. Leach at Tech was the equivalent of Mullen at State. Tech and State had some success here and there usually far and few between but never consistent until those two arrived. As far as competing for the conference championship Tech arguably should've had a chance in '08 but was snubbed from being able to be included in the cointoss between OK and TX.

[DeltaChicagoDog]

Dan succeeded in bringing us out of the cellar and getting us to bowl games but he really blew it on real opportunities ... so yes he had limited success to a degree but he was also a 1st time head coach for us.... ML has been a HC for 18 years before coming here - expectations should be a little higher for him and I would bet that Dan will win at least a division title in his first 19 years ...... If you want to say ML elevated WSU to average 7 win seasons and bowl games and consider that as success then go ahead .... We just have different opinions of success

This was my main concern as well. Why go through all that for a coach whose track record is middling to modest success. Then when I read all the talk about CML doing more with less and the talent gaps he had to overcome, plus the quality D MSU has been able to churn out over the years, something CML teams haven't been known for in the past, I bought in and got really excited.

Leach had never gone so long without an offensive touchdown, never not scored at least one touchdown per game, until this year. No matter how it's sliced, he's never struggled like this. Maybe Dan's JUCO heavy lackluster recruiting at the end (especially OL) plays a huge role in this. If so, does Moorhead get slack for his on the field performance and was his getting fired strictly about disciplinary issues?

I'm going to support the Bulldogs no matter what. Always have, always will. But dang I loathed the Croom years, when support barely rose above apathy.

[ShotgunDawg]

This was my main concern as well. Why go through all that for a coach whose track record is middling to modest success. Then when I read all the talk about CML doing more with less and the talent gaps he had to overcome, plus the quality D MSU has been able to churn out over the years, something CML teams haven't been known for in the past, I bought in and got really excited.

Leach had never gone so long without an offensive touchdown, never not scored at least one touchdown per game, until this year. No matter how it's sliced, he's never struggled like this. Maybe Dan's JUCO heavy lackluster recruiting at the end (especially OL) plays a huge role in this. If so, does Moorhead get slack for his on the field performance and was his getting fired strictly about disciplinary issues?

I'm going to support the Bulldogs no matter what. Always have, always will. But dang I loathed the Croom years, when support barely rose above apathy.

The all conference schedule has a lot to do with it.

Mixing Alabama State into the middle of this would've been helpful for gaining confidence and rhythm. We're having to figure it out again top 25 defenses rather than the typical non-conference games.

[confucius say]

Dan succeeded in bringing us out of the cellar and getting us to bowl games but he really blew it on real opportunities ... so yes he had limited success to a degree but he was also a 1st time head coach for us.... ML has been a HC for 18 years before coming here - expectations should be a little higher for him and I would bet that Dan will win at least a division title in his first 19 years ...... If you want to say ML elevated WSU to average 7 win seasons and bowl games and consider that as success then go ahead .... We just have different opinions of success

"limited success to a degree" That's how you define dans tenure here?
Dan averaged 7.1-4.9 here over a decade. Bowl every year after year 1. The sec and the cfb world overwhelmingly label his time here a success. If our fans cant call that a success, we are the problem.

If leach stays here a decade and averages 7+ wins a year and never misses a bowl after year one, he will be labeled a success by the cfb world regardless if we ever win the west.

[DownwardDawg]

how far into JoMo's season did it take you to realize he wasn't the guy ? Most of us saw it pretty quickly

Totally different situation. What we saw immediately with Joe Mo was an extremely undisciplined team that was horribly out of shape. He turned them into a bunch of pus*^*# within months. Leach has a lot more work to do than moorehead did.

[StarkVegasSteve]

"limited success to a degree" That's how you define dans tenure here?
Dan averaged 7.1-4.9 here over a decade. Bowl every year after year 1. The sec and the cfb world overwhelmingly label his time here a success. If our fans cant call that a success, we are the problem.

If leach stays here a decade and averages 7+ wins a year and never misses a bowl after year one, he will be labeled a success by the cfb world regardless if we ever win the west.

The problem is that there is a faction of our fan base who thinks we're Alabama, UGA, LSU, etc. What Dan did is the blueprint for how to be successful at outlier SEC schools such as State, Ole Miss, Mizzou, USCe, UK, etc. You win between 6 to 8 for the first two years of a recruiting class and then you hope to catch some breaks in years 3 and 4 and put yourself in the playoff conversation. It's what he did in 14 and 15 and what he was set up to do in 18 because we had peaked a year before he thought we would in 17.

We're a developmental program and always have been. You have to be able to bring kids in at all skills levels, whether 5 star or no star and max out their contributions at the end of 3 to 4 years. We can only have 2 to 3 misses a class. Dan was amazing at doing this. Look at guys like McKinney, Slay, Preston Smith, Cam Lawrence, Dillon Day, Ben Beckwith, JBanks, Fitz, and the list goes on and on. Then you look at higher rated guys like Simmons, Jones, Sweat, KJ Wright and it's the same thing. We were able to get everything out of each one of those guys because of CULTURE. It's what we lost under Joe

[DownwardDawg]

"limited success to a degree" That's how you define dans tenure here?
Dan averaged 7.1-4.9 here over a decade. Bowl every year after year 1. The sec and the cfb world overwhelmingly label his time here a success. If our fans cant call that a success, we are the problem.

If leach stays here a decade and averages 7+ wins a year and never misses a bowl after year one, he will be labeled a success by the cfb world regardless if we ever win the west.

This

[Matt3467]

Dan succeeded in bringing us out of the cellar and getting us to bowl games but he really blew it on real opportunities ... so yes he had limited success to a degree but he was also a 1st time head coach for us.... ML has been a HC for 18 years before coming here - expectations should be a little higher for him and I would bet that Dan will win at least a division title in his first 19 years ...... If you want to say ML elevated WSU to average 7 win seasons and bowl games and consider that as success then go ahead .... We just have different opinions of success

#1 True. We still had a real shot at being in the playoffs in 2014 had we not lost to OM. We were #4 in the rankings at the time. Dan blew it when it really counted.

#2 Absolutely. The difference being that Dan is at a blue blood now. Dan is a good coach and coaching at a blue blood raking in the star recruits will counteract some of his tendency to blow it in big games. He'll win the SEC East eventually mostly because Bama isn't in there with him. Now as long as Saban is coaching SEC title is another story.

#3 No question that Leach put WSU on the map. Outside of a few 10 win years in the early '00s WSU has perennially been a doormat since it's inception. Before '11 WSU all time record sat at 424-480 a consistent loser. They achieved their first ever 11 win season under Leach.

#4 Yes.

[StateDawg44]

how far into JoMo's season did it take you to realize he wasn't the guy ? Most of us saw it pretty quickly



Funny because game 4 of Moorhead's career was that awful Kentucy loss in the pouring down rain.

I do feel like I remember people saying "square peg, round hole" etc. after that loss. Might not have been quite that soon though.

On the flip side you had people making excuse. The rain, lack of effort, coaching, etc.

[Cowbell]

The all conference schedule has a lot to do with it.

Mixing Alabama State into the middle of this would've been helpful for gaining confidence and rhythm. We're having to figure it out again top 25 defenses rather than the typical non-conference games.
No no no. I'm so glad we don't have a chance to embarrass ourselves against non P5 opponents. We are that bad offensively.

[Hot Rock]

No no no. I'm so glad we don't have a chance to embarrass ourselves against non P5 opponents. We are that bad offensively.

You right about that part. We could not execute against any decently coached team right now.

[Todd4State]

The problem is that there is a faction of our fan base who thinks we're Alabama, UGA, LSU, etc. What Dan did is the blueprint for how to be successful at outlier SEC schools such as State, Ole Miss, Mizzou, USCe, UK, etc. You win between 6 to 8 for the first two years of a recruiting class and then you hope to catch some breaks in years 3 and 4 and put yourself in the playoff conversation. It's what he did in 14 and 15 and what he was set up to do in 18 because we had peaked a year before he thought we would in 17.

We're a developmental program and always have been. You have to be able to bring kids in at all skills levels, whether 5 star or no star and max out their contributions at the end of 3 to 4 years. We can only have 2 to 3 misses a class. Dan was amazing at doing this. Look at guys like McKinney, Slay, Preston Smith, Cam Lawrence, Dillon Day, Ben Beckwith, JBanks, Fitz, and the list goes on and on. Then you look at higher rated guys like Simmons, Jones, Sweat, KJ Wright and it's the same thing. We were able to get everything out of each one of those guys because of CULTURE. It's what we lost under Joe

Joe ruining our culture is the number one problem we have right now. And this from the President of the Dan Mullen recruiting sins fan club.

I think Leach will fix both issues.

[Todd4State]

Funny because game 4 of Moorhead's career was that awful Kentucy loss in the pouring down rain.

I do feel like I remember people saying "square peg, round hole" etc. after that loss. Might not have been quite that soon though.

On the flip side you had people making excuse. The rain, lack of effort, coaching, etc.

I'm still fine being on the record giving a coach a pass on one bad game. That's reasonable. Even with the benefit of hindsight. I can't think of one coach that hasn't had a bad game.

[Maroonthirteen]

The all conference schedule has a lot to do with it.

s.

No logic. Speculation.

Lane Kiffens offense has done just fine at OM. Under the Same circumstances.

[Cowbell]

You right about that part. We could not execute against any decently coached team right now.

I keep being so thankful for this thinking back over some of the embarrassment Arkansas took last year. We would certainly drop one.

[bulldawg28]

So you're saying the big -12 and pac-12 are good comps for playing in the SEC? Even Steven huh? Same talent all across the conferences right? Guess that's where we lose each other.

I agree, the jobs he had in those conferences line up with where MSU might line up in the pecking order of the SEC. You are right about that. Put him in the ACC, do you think he would have more success so far than he has this year in the SEC? Hypothetical, I know. No more hypothetical that clutching onto his career record.

I'm not comparing him to Moorhead. He is a better head coach than Moorhead. Try not to get caught up on that. I'm comparing the fan's reactions to Moorhead and Leach so far and how so many fans "saw the writing on the wall" on Moorhead with a slightly smaller sample size so far from Leach. For God's sake 'Gun is being the voice of reason for a lot of people so far this season.

If Leach had won a Natty at the previous schools he coached does that mean we should hang our hat on that too? Previous wins don't carry over to the next year or division or conference ya know?

I'll admit I supported Moorhead until the Tennessee game. I'll do the same if not more for Leach. But we can't get through this year fast enough at this point.

Bottom line, his wins at TT & WSU do MSU absolutely no good.

100000% correct. It's cynical for fans to ignore Leach in all of his tenure has never struggled to this degree on offense. Regardless of what the narrative of excuses are for him we have enough talent to score touchdowns. The irony of the situation is being he's coached so long he should have figured this out.

[msbulldog]

No logic. Speculation.

Lane Kiffens offense has done just fine at OM. Under the Same circumstances.

OM has a record as bad as us.

[Saltydog]

Uh, not they don't. They will have two wins as of today (they're about to hang 60 on Vandy), we have one. Right now there's no question they are the better team.

[ShotgunDawg]

No logic. Speculation.

Lane Kiffens offense has done just fine at OM. Under the Same circumstances.

It has and it's worth discussing why.

1. Ole Miss has much much better offensive talent that we do.
2. Kiffin's offensive scheme is much closer to what those talented players were recruited to do than Leach's is to ours.

[Maroonthirteen]

Kiffins offensive scheme is just much better. Period.

[BeardoMSU]

It has and it's worth discussing why.

1. Ole Miss has much much better offensive talent that we do.
2. Kiffin's offensive scheme is much closer to what those talented players were recruited to do than Leach's is to ours.

3. it's success isn't predicated on fooling the opponent with gimmicks.**