If we do the below

[Maverick91]

and we still suck are we going to blame the Coach or are we going to blame the players.

Currently I feel like half this board thinks Leach's system sucks and is never going to work in this league, and the other half believes its just going to take time for things to click.

I hope I get all the adjustments laid out below.

1. we need to add in tight end sets.
2. we need to run two back sets.
3. we need to run the ball at least 30% of the time.
4. Rogers needs to start/a scrambling quarterback.
5. Costello should start with his grad assistance ship starting with practice today.
6. We need to pay Leach on a win by win basis.

The above is what I have gathered over the past three weeks. If we make these adjustments and run them consistently with Bama and we still don't look any better. Those of you who think its Leach's system that sucks are you willing to change your mind that the players are just not where we need them and it wasn't all on Leach? Vice versa if it does work are you who think Leach wasn't the issue are you willing to say that his system was the issue?


HAIL FREAKING STATE

[Homedawg]

1- we did that a few plays sat. Didn't do much if anything. Won't see it much.
2- have been running 2 back sets every game. I'm sure that will continue but doubt the percentage goes way up.
3-if you include the sideways pitches that we ran sat, that go as passes in the stats, then the number of runs is higher. But 25% is a more reasonable goal if you count those cause they are really runs just go as passes on the stat sheet.
4- Rogers isn't a scrambling qb, I get it he's more of a runner than kj but not a scrambler.
5- kj hasn't been good. I'm alll for Rogers playing but if the line doesn't improve it doesn't matter.
6- that's just dumb.

[FISHDAWG]

I see no reason to not work with what you have and adapt during season 1 to win and maintain some sense of competitiveness while recruiting for your future players ... a lot of what we have seen so far doesn't include much adaptation .... I think the consensus here is that we are all willing to give ML time to implement for the next couple of years - but what is troubling is not trying the tweaks that could help us this year and that is creating some paranoia about the next few years because a LOT of us aren't completely sold on 100% air raid as we have seen it in the past - it's gonna take some tweaking or even a hybrid version to work in this conference. All I'm seeing so far is an adamant attitude to do things the same old way it has been done in the past ...... I'm pro Leach and willing to wait it out because I believe it will take something out of the ordinary to get us anywhere - it's just difficult to watch right now when we all have our own ideas about how to improve on this system. And no we aren't guys that make our living by coaching football but we do have some intellect about ourselves and it's easy to see a hesitation to change things up much

and this isn't helping to soothe

https://twitter.com/tbhorka/status/1318555076361900033

[was21]

If that's what needs to be done, then the wrong corch was hired because....4 of those 6 ain't going to happen

[HoopsDawg]

It's pretty clear to me. We are going to see this same defense every game for as long as Mike Leach is the coach until we can run the ball effectively. To run the ball effectively, we need to go to traditional splits and add some diversity to the run game. If Leach would make this adjustment like all of his protege's have made, then Leach could run all of his mesh routes and air raid stuff in the passing game. Or we can just keep checking down, throwing picks and beating our head against the wall. And our fans can keep blasting our Olinemen and our QBs.

[Maverick91]

Homedawg - I cannot disagree with you on any account. And yes someone did say on one of these threads that Leach should be paid on a win by win basis. Probably a joke, but, it is in the fray of everything else.

[Maverick91]

FISHDAWG - Honestly this is where I sit on the spectrum and one of the reasons why I don't think we can say tweaks must be made completely yet, because our QB decision making ability has been trash. If he looked any bit competent to run this offense I think we would have scored a lot more and potentially been 3-1 or even 4-0 to date. That being the case I don't think anyone on here would be thinking this thing wasn't working, I think it would be the contrary.

[Maverick91]

HoopsDawg - and making beer sales go through the roof.

[FISHDAWG]

FISHDAWG - Honestly this is where I sit on the spectrum and one of the reasons why I don't think we can say tweaks must be made completely yet, because our QB decision making ability has been trash. If he looked any bit competent to run this offense I think we would have scored a lot more and potentially been 3-1 or even 4-0 to date. That being the case I don't think anyone on here would be thinking this thing wasn't working, I think it would be the contrary.

the QB position is one of the tweaks I'm talking about ... amongst others. So if the QB isn't getting it done then this whole system shuts down with no contingency plan ... there has to be a plan B or something tweaked in the calling / game planning to help not just the QB but the OL as well

[ShotgunDawg]

After watching film, I want to see Rogers play an entire game before fully saying I know what adjustments we should make.

While adding a TE more would certainly help, I'm convinced Bledsoe Costello's slow feet and thus slow progressions are hurting this offense more than anything.

I'm not saying that starting Rogers solves all our problems. I'm just saying that starting Rogers may solve enough of the minor issues that the major ones are more evident.

[defiantdog]

We've been a run first team for what? 125 years? I think we need to give this more than 4 games.

[ShotgunDawg]

We've been a run first team for what? 125 years? I think we need to give this more than 4 games.

You don’t say?* LOL

What’s funny is that I never fully realized how engrained RTGDF was in the hearts and minds of MSU people. This whole thing is like a human experiment in culture shock.

[msugolf]

You don’t say?* LOL

What’s funny is that I never fully realized how engrained RTGDF was in the hearts and minds of MSU people. This whole thing is like a human experiment in culture shock.

To be fair to those people, they probably aren't opposed to becoming a passing team. But rather an entire offense of passing. Our admin decided they didn't want to take a dose of the prescription, they took the whole damn bottle. But it's always the same at MState. We always feel like we have to tear everything down and start over.

[ShotgunDawg]

To be fair to those people, they probably aren't opposed to becoming a passing team. But rather an entire offense of passing. Our admin decided they didn't want to take a dose of the prescription, they took the whole damn bottle. But it's always the same at MState. We always feel like we have to tear everything down and start over.

I don’t agree.

- Mullen’s major flaw is that for some reason he can’t develop other head coaches. I’m sure our admin would’ve loved to have promoted from within after Mullen but their were no options. Maybe Brian Johnson becomes Mullen’s first offensive protege. Collins and Manny weren’t fits

- So we hired Moorhead who did some Mullen stuff but added RPO to it. He wasn’t a head coach though.

- So now we just went and hired the best head coach possible. They’re not growing on trees so you do the best you can.

[HoopsDawg]

I want us to throw the hell out of the ball. But we better be able to run against a 3 man front, 5 in the box.

We are seeing a defense normally reserved for 3rd and long. And we are seeing it every play of every game. And our coach just thinks we need to execute better.

[hp22]

1. Keep playing hard. I've questioned strategy at times. I've not much questioned effort within most position groups. Our AllSEC rb has whatever his issues are to sort out and I hope Rodgers gets a better go from the o line. But I think we play hard.

2. Limit turnovers. As painful as our offense has been at times, if we turn the ball over only half as much we may be 3-1 and certainly 2-2.

3. Be patient. It's a new system. I'll critique the results of the gameplan or lack of adjustments because that's what message boarders do. But truth be told, were going into game 5 in a shortened season full of adversity. I want to see flashes of good against bama. But then I want to start seeing weekly progress that results in a win or 3.

4. Score in the red zone. This goes in hand with the turnover component. But again, if we just capture half the available points in the red zone it's a different feel right now.

5. Capture the LOS in some way. Force a change from the 3 down drop 8. Either attack it better or different without completely overhauling things.

6. Qb change + Block

Let's see what we look like in a month.

[Todd4State]

I see no reason to not work with what you have and adapt during season 1 to win and maintain some sense of competitiveness while recruiting for your future players ... a lot of what we have seen so far doesn't include much adaptation .... I think the consensus here is that we are all willing to give ML time to implement for the next couple of years - but what is troubling is not trying the tweaks that could help us this year and that is creating some paranoia about the next few years because a LOT of us aren't completely sold on 100% air raid as we have seen it in the past - it's gonna take some tweaking or even a hybrid version to work in this conference. All I'm seeing so far is an adamant attitude to do things the same old way it has been done in the past ...... I'm pro Leach and willing to wait it out because I believe it will take something out of the ordinary to get us anywhere - it's just difficult to watch right now when we all have our own ideas about how to improve on this system. And no we aren't guys that make our living by coaching football but we do have some intellect about ourselves and it's easy to see a hesitation to change things up much

and this isn't helping to soothe

https://twitter.com/tbhorka/status/1318555076361900033

My biggest take from looking at those stats is our turnovers are absolutely killing us. Will Rogers getting sick has set us back some too because I think that was a factor in going with Costello so long. And maybe Costello even still start- although he shouldn't.

[Todd4State]

It's pretty clear to me. We are going to see this same defense every game for as long as Mike Leach is the coach until we can run the ball effectively. To run the ball effectively, we need to go to traditional splits and add some diversity to the run game. If Leach would make this adjustment like all of his protege's have made, then Leach could run all of his mesh routes and air raid stuff in the passing game. Or we can just keep checking down, throwing picks and beating our head against the wall. And our fans can keep blasting our Olinemen and our QBs.

Two ways to adjust:

1. Adjust your scheme to what your players can do. The downside is this may unintentionally make it more difficult to recruit to what the coach is best at. It also may only produce marginally better results if the players aren't that good to start with and the coach isn't comfortable with major adjustments.

2. Run your system and bring in players that fit. It makes sense for us to do this because Leach's system is so highly reliant on repetition.

[Todd4State]

We've been a run first team for what? 125 years? I think we need to give this more than 4 games.

It's going to be a long two years. I'm hunkering down. I made it through Cohen's first two years and at least the football team looks a heck of a lot closer to being able to win than we did in baseball at that time.


You don’t say?* LOL

What’s funny is that I never fully realized how engrained RTGDF was in the hearts and minds of MSU people. This whole thing is like a human experiment in culture shock.

The other thing that is funny is everyone talks about how great 2014 was. We finished third in the SEC in passing that year.

But I know what you are talking about. I think RTDF is kind of poor ol MSU in a way because it's partially saying we can't get good enough players to throw a forward pass and I think that is complete bullshit.

[Todd4State]

To be fair to those people, they probably aren't opposed to becoming a passing team. But rather an entire offense of passing. Our admin decided they didn't want to take a dose of the prescription, they took the whole damn bottle. But it's always the same at MState. We always feel like we have to tear everything down and start over.

That's true especially when it comes to football. However, Leach wasn't exactly Cohen's first target in the coaching search. We did kick the tires on Napier who everyone seemed to want and he didn't want to come here. Not Cohen's fault. And he's not exactly dominating at ULL at the moment anyway. So maybe we dodged a bullet.

And who knows what kind of offense Joe Judge would have run here? Which to me is another dodged bullet because quite honestly I didn't think he was qualified. He has about the same resume' as Croom did when we hired him. He may turn out to be our head coach and be our best ever one day- but at least if that does happen he will have cut his teeth as a head coach with the Giants first and learned his lessons there.

After that Cohen went after Leach. Which to me is a better option for us than Sarkisian and Gene ****ing Chizik. If we hired one of the service academy guys like Monken I think he would have worked like I think Leach will because he is a good football coach- but he's the opposite extreme of Leach. And I would imagine we would be having a lot of the same issues on offense because of players "fitting" that system as well. Not to mention we would probably end up like Georgia Tech where we would struggle recruiting for years because we don't run a system that translates well to the NFL and then end up having to have a major rebuild completely whenever Monken left. So given those options- I think Cohen made the best decision at the time.

[BiscuitEater]

I hope I get all the adjustments laid out below.

1. we need to add in tight end sets.
2. we need to run two back sets.
3. we need to run the ball at least 30% of the time.
4. Rogers needs to start/a scrambling quarterback.
5. Costello should start with his grad assistance ship starting with practice today.
6. We need to pay Leach on a win by win basis.



Simple. You are ready to fire Leach and find another HC. Leach ain't going to change.

[Maverick91]

lol

[Maverick91]

It's going to be a long two years. I'm hunkering down. I made it through Cohen's first two years and at least the football team looks a heck of a lot closer to being able to win than we did in baseball at that time.



The other thing that is funny is everyone talks about how great 2014 was. We finished third in the SEC in passing that year.

But I know what you are talking about. I think RTDF is kind of poor ol MSU in a way because it's partially saying we can't get good enough players to throw a forward pass and I think that is complete bullshit.

Exactly!

[ShotgunDawg]

Exactly!

While the offense may not totally click for 2 years, I think we can win some games due to the defense, if we're able to keep Arnett and build

[Maverick91]

While the offense may not totally click for 2 years, I think we can win some games due to the defense, if we're able to keep Arnett and build

I firmly believe keeping Arnett is the most important thing for Leach to do. hopefully Leach is liked much more by his DC than what Mullen was liked. I tired of changing a DC every year.

[ShotgunDawg]

I firmly believe keeping Arnett is the most important thing for Leach to do. hopefully Leach is liked much more by his DC than what Mullen was liked. I tired of changing a DC every year.

Agree. I'm so sick of the class structure of college football. If a 2nd tier program gets good coordinators, they are immediately rumored to be leaving. It destroys the ability for 2nd tier programs to build

[Maverick91]

Agree. I'm so sick of the class structure of college football. If a 2nd tier program gets good coordinators, they are immediately rumored to be leaving. It destroys the ability for 2nd tier programs to build

especially since we are in a stage that we can take a step forward soon.

[Lord McBuckethead]

It's pretty clear to me. We are going to see this same defense every game for as long as Mike Leach is the coach until we can run the ball effectively. To run the ball effectively, we need to go to traditional splits and add some diversity to the run game. If Leach would make this adjustment like all of his protege's have made, then Leach could run all of his mesh routes and air raid stuff in the passing game. Or we can just keep checking down, throwing picks and beating our head against the wall. And our fans can keep blasting our Olinemen and our QBs.

Leach needs to just look at Kliff Kingsbury's system. That is how the big boys do it. Hell, look at KC. They throw it all over the place, but when a running play is called, the OL gets nasty.

[HoopsDawg]

Leach needs to just look at Kliff Kingsbury's system. That is how the big boys do it. Hell, look at KC. They throw it all over the place, but when a running play is called, the OL gets nasty.

KC ran it 46 times on Monday b/c that's what the game dictated. Leach would never do that.

Imagine the discipline to have Mahomes, Hill, Watkins, Kelce, Hardeman, etc and run it 46 times. That's why Andy Reid is one of the greats.

[Bothrops]

and we still suck are we going to blame the Coach or are we going to blame the players.

Currently I feel like half this board thinks Leach's system sucks and is never going to work in this league, and the other half believes its just going to take time for things to click.

I hope I get all the adjustments laid out below.

1. we need to add in tight end sets.
2. we need to run two back sets.
3. we need to run the ball at least 30% of the time.
4. Rogers needs to start/a scrambling quarterback.
5. Costello should start with his grad assistance ship starting with practice today.
6. We need to pay Leach on a win by win basis.

The above is what I have gathered over the past three weeks. If we make these adjustments and run them consistently with Bama and we still don't look any better. Those of you who think its Leach's system that sucks are you willing to change your mind that the players are just not where we need them and it wasn't all on Leach? Vice versa if it does work are you who think Leach wasn't the issue are you willing to say that his system was the issue?


HAIL FREAKING STATE

Leach's system will work but only if you have the right qb. People still don't understand this fact.

[StateDawg44]

Leach's system will work but only if you have the right qb. People still don't understand this fact.

QB makes a big difference but if the QB doesn't have blockers it won't be much different than what we have now. Not to mention receivers who know how to work a zone.

Everything I've said has already been beaten to death though.

[Maverick91]

QB makes a big difference but if the QB doesn't have blockers it won't be much different than what we have now. Not to mention receivers who know how to work a zone.

Everything I've said has already been beaten to death though.

I looked at the first 14 throws for both Rogers and Costello on Saturday. Why 14? Because that is how many balls Rogers through in his first 2 drives.

I make this post to say this is 100% on Costello for how bad our Offense has performed, not the line. My opinion, please change my mind.

From snap of the ball to the release or subsequent pressure of the sack, Rogers had the ball for 30.29 seconds.

Of the 30.29 seconds he held the ball for an average of 2.16 seconds. He read through his progressions and made the appropriate check downs in that timeframe and moved the ball pretty well and got a freaking touchdown. Please also note, that he made quite a few throws past ten yards and hit people in stride within ten yards. That is a winning formula.


From snap of the ball to the release or subsequent pressure of the sack, Costello had the ball for 36.68 seconds.

Of the 36.68 seconds he held the ball for an average of 2.62 seconds. With additional time he was sacked, fumbled twice (ball hit him in the chest), 1 pick, 1 under throw (probably a touchdown), and didn't look like he could read the defense.

Looking at the numbers how I read this, the line gave Costello all the time he needed to read through his progressions and make the right throw. He couldn't do it, no matter what the reason is, he couldn't do it. A true freshman made Costello look like a true freshman in every facet of the QB position.

I believe we need a full game of a Rogers running this offense to actually see what its capabilities are, Bama might not give us the best understanding. But, we also might be pleasantly surprised.

[StateDawg44]

I looked at the first 14 throws for both Rogers and Costello on Saturday. Why 14? Because that is how many balls Rogers through in his first 2 drives.

I make this post to say this is 100% on Costello for how bad our Offense has performed, not the line. My opinion, please change my mind.

From snap of the ball to the release or subsequent pressure of the sack, Rogers had the ball for 30.29 seconds.

Of the 30.29 seconds he held the ball for an average of 2.16 seconds. He read through his progressions and made the appropriate check downs in that timeframe and moved the ball pretty well and got a freaking touchdown. Please also note, that he made quite a few throws past ten yards and hit people in stride within ten yards. That is a winning formula.


From snap of the ball to the release or subsequent pressure of the sack, Costello had the ball for 36.68 seconds.

Of the 36.68 seconds he held the ball for an average of 2.62 seconds. With additional time he was sacked, fumbled twice (ball hit him in the chest), 1 pick, 1 under throw (probably a touchdown), and didn't look like he could read the defense.

Looking at the numbers how I read this, the line gave Costello all the time he needed to read through his progressions and make the right throw. He couldn't do it, no matter what the reason is, he couldn't do it. A true freshman made Costello look like a true freshman in every facet of the QB position.

I believe we need a full game of a Rogers running this offense to actually see what its capabilities are, Bama might not give us the best understanding. But, we also might be pleasantly surprised.



https://www.elitedawgs.com/showthread.php?82898-Numbers-crunched


Ok?

This doesn't convince me otherwise the second time I saw it either.

[Maverick91]

https://www.elitedawgs.com/showthread.php?82898-Numbers-crunched


Ok?

This doesn't convince me otherwise the second time I saw it either.

How does it not? Just trying to understand.

[StateDawg44]

How does it not? Just trying to understand.


There are just too many variables. I don't care about trying to poke a hole in what you've said. It doesn't convince me, don't know what you want me to say.

In your 14 snap scenario, it makes sense I guess. Not saying what you've said is wrong. Insignificant sample size at two totally different stages of the game.

When I see certain linemen repeatedly standing there not blocking a single person while the person he should be blocking is blowing past him while he is looking the other way, there is more to it than just 1 single player on the offense making things work.

I agree Rogers is very likely the best option. He was putting balls in windows that Costello wasn't seeing but the WR's didn't look like they were totally on the same page with the Rogers either. But they were running their route correctly and Rogers knew where and when to put it. I don't need to crunch numbers and see averages to come up with what the other problems are when I can see them with my own eyes.

Do you not think a QB not being able to trust his linemen effects his decision-making ability? Especially when that decision has to be made in 2 seconds.

---

Plus your response to my original post doesn't really apply. Yes, a good QB can make Leach's system tick. But what system doesn't require that? The point of my original post that differs from yours is that everything doesn't fall on Costello. Obviously the turnovers do though.