In the SEC, you still have to run the ball....

[Thick]

to be successful. We are averaging around 10-12 runs per game. No SEC DC is going to worry about 10-12 running plays, bc those plays aren?t going to beat them. They will coach to play the pass first vs Leach then react to the run. Our offense is vanilla and easy to game plan against. I cannot dumb it down anymore then that. This might be LSU - 9 season.

[ShotgunDawg]

Problem is, the OL is so bad, we can't run the ball.

[msugolf]

Problem is, the OL is so bad, we can't run the ball.

Problem is our OL is built for running instead of passing and they're being asked to do something they can't. And help isn't on the way for next year, currently.

[Maroonthirteen]

Says it all...

https://www.elevenwarriors.com/college-football/2018/11/99405/washington-huskies-defensive-coordinator-jimmy-lake-scorches-mike-leachs-game-plan-following-upset-victory

[msugolf]

Says it all...

https://www.elevenwarriors.com/college-football/2018/11/99405/washington-huskies-defensive-coordinator-jimmy-lake-scorches-mike-leachs-game-plan-following-upset-victory

That's so depressing

[HoopsDawg]

Problem is, the OL is so bad, we can't run the ball.

You still don't get it.

[ShotgunDawg]

You still don't get it.

Explain then

[bluelightstar]

You will not win sh*t in the SEC averaging 29 yards a game on the ground. I mean, that's just pitiful.

[Cooterpoot]

We're like USM. They keep trying to find a coach that won't leave every three years and it's killing them. We keep trying to turn our program into a pass first program. Leadership doesn't understand what we are. John Cohen is a damn fool!

[ShotgunDawg]

We're like USM. They keep trying to find a coach that won't leave every three years and it's killing them. We keep trying to turn our program into a pass first program. Leadership doesn't understand what we are. John Cohen is a damn fool!

I get the frustration, but I believe being able to pass is the only way we can compete for the West within the foreseeable future. It's the only way.

So, while yes I understand that we're a historically running team, it's been proven time and time again that the ceiling of that style of play with the talent we're capable of getting, is a 9-3 to 8-4 type program. While that's certainly solid, we can always return to that, but it's pertinent that we at least try to take this thing to the next level

While it may not work, I believe the vision of developing into a passing team is the right thing to do no matter how painful it may be on the way there.

[ShotgunDawg]

You will not win sh*t in the SEC averaging 29 yards a game on the ground. I mean, that's just pitiful.

When the offense is running right, we won't average 29 yards on the ground.

[bluelightstar]

I get the frustration, but I believe being able to pass is the only way we can compete for the West within the foreseeable future. It's the only way.

So, while yes I understand that we're a historically running team, it's been proven time and time again that the ceiling of that style of play with the talent we're capable of getting, is a 9-3 to 8-4 type program. While that's certainly solid, we can always return to that, but it's pertinent that we at least try to take this thing to the next level

While it may not work, I believe the vision of developing into a passing team is the right thing to do no matter how painful it may be on the way there.

You can try to transition into a pass first team without becoming pass only. I understand that Leach isn't going anywhere and shouldn't (barring us going 2-8 this year and following up with another disaster next year). But the tremendous potential downside to bringing in Mike Leach's Air Raid--an offense that he concedes is *simple* and that is painfully one-dimensional--to a league with coaching staffs that work 20-hour days and meticulously analyze every snap of every opponent should have been obvious.

[Cooterpoot]

I get the frustration, but I believe being able to pass is the only way we can compete for the West within the foreseeable future. It's the only way.

So, while yes I understand that we're a historically running team, it's been proven time and time again that the ceiling of that style of play with the talent we're capable of getting, is a 9-3 to 8-4 type program. While that's certainly solid, we can always return to that, but it's pertinent that we at least try to take this thing to the next level

While it may not work, I believe the vision of developing into a passing team is the right thing to do no matter how painful it may be on the way there.

Name the teams that have won the west other than AL since 2010. Tell me how many of those were a pass first team. Because none were (LSU last year?) This idea that passing will beat AL is exactly what I was talking about. Go look at how many teams have thrown the ball more than 40 times and beat AL in that time frame and then tell me passing is how it's done. It's fake damn news! And the real problem is WE WILL NEVER CONSISTENTLY BEAT AL EVER!!!

[ShotgunDawg]

You can try to transition into a pass first team without becoming pass only. I understand that Leach isn't going anywhere and shouldn't (barring us going 2-8 this year and following up with another disaster next year). But the tremendous potential downside to bringing in Mike Leach's Air Raid--an offense that he concedes is *simple* and that is painfully one-dimensional--to a league with coaching staffs that work 20-hour days and meticulously analyze every snap of every opponent should have been obvious.

I agree. My only thought is that the pass opens up the run in his offense and since we can't currently pass, the run doesn't work either.

Hopefully they figure something out over the next 2 weeks and we go and score 24+ against Bama. We'll lose 48 to whatever, but I'll feel much better if we can have some production against them

[ShotgunDawg]

Name the teams that have won the west other than AL since 2010. Tell me how many of those were a pass first team. Because none were (LSU last year?) This idea that passing will beat AL is exactly what I was talking about. Go look at how many teams have thrown the ball more than 40 times and beat AL in that time frame and then tell me passing is how it's done. It's fake damn news!

Ole Miss would've won the West as a pass first team if it weren't for Arkansas converting a 4th and 25.

LSU was pass first last year

[Cooterpoot]

Ole Miss would've won the West as a pass first team if it weren't for Arkansas converting a 4th and 25.

LSU was pass first last year

LSU was a balanced team and OM never won it. You are so hung up on OM you're blind. You beat AL with similar talent, not a damn scheme.

[bluelightstar]

Ole Miss would've won the West as a pass first team if it weren't for Arkansas converting a 4th and 25.

LSU was pass first last year

2015 Ole Miss averaged 183 yards/game on the ground in 2015 and averaged just 2 more pass attempts than run attempts per game (37.6 vs. 35.6). 2019 LSU averaged 167 yards/game on the ground and had 4 more pass attempts per game (37.8 vs. 33.9). It's fair to call them pass first, but it's nothing at all like what we're doing. Those offenses were balanced. It's not passing all the time that beats Bama; it's the ability to be balanced and go downfield.

Looking at Leach's 2018 Wazzu team, which I expect is what we should look to as his "ideal" offense, the breakdown was 52.1 passes to 21.4 rushes a game, averaging just 79 yards a game on the ground. Same for '08 Texas Tech - 50.9 passes and 24.4 rushes -- although Tech did average 117 yards on the ground. Color me skeptical that such a breakdown is going to work in the SEC.

[HoopsDawg]

Explain then

If Leach doesn't transition to normal O-line splits, we will not be sucessful.

[PGHBulldogBG]

I?m not as upset about the aTm loss as the Ark and UK losses. aTm is way more talented and experienced and we actually seemed to be more poised. We did better with the turnovers, but we just can?t compete with them. It is still possible we beat Vandy, Auburn, Ole Miss and Missouri, but we do need to find a better running game and keep limiting the turnovers. Losing that Arkansas game at home though is still inexcusable and that?s on Leach for not kicking the field goals more than anyone. We really should be 2-2 and I think if that were the case the meltdowns wouldn?t be quite as bad.

[ShotgunDawg]

If Leach doesn't transition to normal O-line splits, we will not be sucessful.

Maybe. I'm not sure how any of us would know that

[HoopsDawg]

Maybe. I'm not sure how any of us would know that

I explained it in the other thread that I started. Art Briles, Dana Holgerson, and Lincoln Riley learned that the air raid needed traditional splits. They are all running Air Raid 2.0 or maybe even 4.0. Leach is still running DOS.

[TrapGame]

I explained it in the other thread that I started. Art Briles, Dana Holgerson, and Lincoln Riley learned that the air raid needed traditional splits. They are all running Air Raid 2.0 or maybe even 4.0. Leach is still running DOS.

This.

If the only thing Leach did was utilize a good dual threat QB that would add a completely different dimension to his offense that would change how defenses scheme it.

[parabrave]

LSU was a balanced team and OM never won it. You are so hung up on OM you're blind. You beat AL with similar talent, not a damn scheme.

OM also had 3 of the best receivers in the SEC that year and had a good running game which was utilized. Look at Bama this year they have gone back to a more balanced attack. They were good because they had the best receiving corps the last 3 years and Tua and Hurts were a threat to run. No teams could just drop 8 and rush 3 against that. You have to be able to run the ball in the SEC.

[HoopsDawg]

Maybe. I'm not sure how any of us would know that

Let me try to put it another way and maybe this should be a separate thread, but can we all agree that the number 1 priority for Leach should be how to beat the rush 3 drop 8? If we can at least agree on that, let me ask you this:

Would it be better to attack a 3-8 with traditional splits or wide splits? The answer is easy and obvious, it's traditional splits.

[ShotgunDawg]

Let me try to put it another way and maybe this should be a separate thread, but can we all agree that the number 1 priority for Leach should be how to beat the rush 3 drop 8? If we can at least agree on that, let me ask you this:

Would it be better to attack a 3-8 with traditional splits or wide splits? The answer is easy and obvious, it's traditional splits.

Ok. Well hopefully he makes some adjustments over the next two weeks

[State82]

Says it all...

https://www.elevenwarriors.com/college-football/2018/11/99405/washington-huskies-defensive-coordinator-jimmy-lake-scorches-mike-leachs-game-plan-following-upset-victory

That does not bode well. At all.

[DLGDawg]

This.

If the only thing Leach did was utilize a good dual threat QB that would add a completely different dimension to his offense that would change how defenses scheme it.

Shrader can throw the check down pass**(sorta-I'm wanting anything tried right now). Put shrader as one of two running back w Will at qb. At least that would make defenses have to "think" and respect the qb run. Shrader can throw a little too.

[Coach34]

LSU was pass first last year

LSU ran for 2500 yards last year. Nobody is saying you can?t be pass 1st. We are run never right now. We have 144 yards rushing in 4 games. That?s ridiculous

[Captain Falcon]

Some are saying we don't run it enough, but I think what Shotgun and others (including myself) are trying to point out is that we can't run the ball well even if we wanted to.

Yes, we are last in the country in rushing attempts per game, but we are also last in the country in yards per carry. It goes back to the o-line, there is no point in running it more if you can't block better.

Scheme, playcalling, none of it matters if your o-line is going to be as bad as ours has been.

[Cooterpoot]

Some are saying we don't run it enough, but I think what Shotgun and others (including myself) are trying to point out is that we can't run the ball well even if we wanted to.

Yes, we are last in the country in rushing attempts per game, but we are also last in the country in yards per carry. It goes back to the o-line, there is no point in running it more if you can't block better.

Scheme, playcalling, none of it matters if your o-line is going to be as bad as ours has been.

And the point to that is change the way the OL splits are or add some other running plays (toss worked ok this week) outside the three everybody knows. Put your OL in a position to be successful. There are things that can be done.

[Captain Falcon]

And the point to that is change the way the OL splits are or add some other running plays (toss worked ok this week) outside the three everybody knows. Put your OL in a position to be successful. There are things that can be done.

I'm open to that kind of suggestion. I just think that there's more to it than "we just need to run the ball more" as some have suggested. Well no, there's a lot more to it than that.

[Hot Rock]

People... running has nothing to do with it.. absolutely nothing

it simply does not matter

I know I am pissing in the wind trying to explain it one more time.. Saying anything about Washington vs Wash St is stupid. Huskies had a bunch four stars and Leech and mostly non-rated to two star guys.

As long as the Oline cannot block three man rush, we will suck. you can't run it, you can't pass it with an O-line that stinks. Now, go find us some guys that can block dammit.

[Hot Rock]

yes, it's hard to watch.. It sucks to be this bad.

You cannot play against SEC defenses if 5 can't block 3. They all have horses on the D-Line. Until that is fixed, we are going to stink and at best win a couple more games.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

My concern is that John Cohen is paying a guy $15 Million over the next 3 years who was looking for a pay day and his best days are behind him.. meanwhile completely killing our Athletic Department as Football pays for everything.

[defiantdog]

We need to run the ball to be successful..... and in the A&M game, we actually had TE's with a hand on the ground in the second half. This tells me we may evolve into a more fluid offense.

[HoopsDawg]

yes, it's hard to watch.. It sucks to be this bad.

You cannot play against SEC defenses if 5 can't block 3. They all have horses on the D-Line. Until that is fixed, we are going to stink and at best win a couple more games.

We aren't blocking 3 with 5. That's what a lot of people just can't grasp. The wide splits BY DESIGN mean your O-linemen are going to be in one on one matchups. That's tough for any tackle to win for longer than 3 seconds. We can't help with a guard b/c of the splits. If a guard slid over, teams would send 4 and get pressure easily like A&M did. They sent 5 only twice and were successful both times. But say it again, it's not 5 vs 3. This is a major schematic flaw that has haunted Leach in the last 7 apple cups and 3 games in a row. How much more evidence does he need?

[Todd4State]

My concern is that John Cohen is paying a guy $15 Million over the next 3 years who was looking for a pay day and his best days are behind him.. meanwhile completely killing our Athletic Department as Football pays for everything.

Why are we worried about failure at a program that hasn't won any kind of football championship since 1998 and hasn't won the SEC outright since 1941?

Arkansas just had a run where they were the most absolutely atrocious football program I have ever seen in the SEC including Vanderbilt. They weren't able to beat San Jose State and North Texas. And yet- despite that it didn't destroy their program. Just like neither Croom nor Joe could ruin ours. Historically we've had even worse coaches than them- see Charley Shira and Wade Walker may have been even worse than him. If Leach fails or mails it in MSU could EASILY hire some coach that is a good recruiter on the cheap and then hire two elite coordinators by paying above board to run our offense and defense like Arkansas and LSU. That's actually almost what kind of happened when we almost hired Joe Judge so Cohen certainly isn't above doing that.

Heck- if anything we should be taking risks. And a coach with a 20 year track record of success is about as safe as we could go.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Why are we worried about failure at a program that hasn't won any kind of football championship since 1998 and hasn't won the SEC outright since 1941?

Arkansas just had a run where they were the most absolutely atrocious football program I have ever seen in the SEC including Vanderbilt. They weren't able to beat San Jose State and North Texas. And yet- despite that it didn't destroy their program. Just like neither Croom nor Joe could ruin ours. Historically we've had even worse coaches than them- see Charley Shira and Wade Walker may have been even worse than him. If Leach fails or mails it in MSU could EASILY hire some coach that is a good recruiter on the cheap and then hire two elite coordinators by paying above board to run our offense and defense like Arkansas and LSU. That's actually almost what kind of happened when we almost hired Joe Judge so Cohen certainly isn't above doing that.

Heck- if anything we should be taking risks. And a coach with a 20 year track record of success is about as safe as we could go.

Exactly. At the end of the day, keep your program top 30 in talent and the right coach can IMMEDIATELY right back in it with Kentucky, Arky, Ole Miss, the mediocre P5 non-con opponent, and one of the SEC powers if their team is falling apart. You're a good hire from a bowl game and top 25 classes year 1.

Let's not forget that the new SEC TV deal is about to give us $23M more money per year. Yeah it might not help us jump up in the SEC since they have the same deal, BUT it does allow us to afford buyouts should Leach not work out, it allows us to offer a $15M total coaching pay vs the $10M we do now. We'll be able to attract and keep better coaches than we can now. It's all up to the Ad to make the right hire when the time comes