So away from the freakouts and onto X's and O's... how do we beat Arky's gameplan?

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

What exactly do we do vs a 3 man rush with 8 dropping into zone? Running the ball vs a 5 man box? Put together 14 play drives of 4-6 yard passes? Take the top off with 50/50 deep balls? Simply get better at executing our routes and QB decision making?

Genuine question: how do we break it?

[msstate7]

Isn't this the same plan Washington ran that leach never figured a way to beat it?

[DownwardDawg]

Isn't this the same plan Washington ran that leach never figured a way to beat it?

I believe it is.

[DovaDawg]

The bad part is we figured out how to break it in the third quarter. You take what the defense gives you. If they are going to give you five yards underneath, then take it. The defense was having to crash down from 5-10 yards away every play and was eventually going to run out of gas. You take the five yard run. You take the short screens and slants. You let the defense wear themselves out and eventually you guys break one or you take a deep shot. Basically what Arkansas did to us. They burned us twice with the same screen play. KJ did it great one drive, then got greedy and kept trying to force the ball deeper into the zone.

[maroonmania]

I know we were missing Kylin but what was REALLY shocking to me last night was that Arkansas was consistently dropping 8 yet we were STILL very ineffective running the ball overall. Did we have a run over 10 yards all night? If a defense can drop that many folks out of the box and you still can't run the ball I'm not sure what you do.

[redstickdawg]

THe Lb's weren't taking a deep drop that's why they could also play the runs. It appears that the LB's were staying home for 2 reasons, stop the run and the short crossing routes. The rest of the def backs were going 10-20 yards deep and closing the throwing lanes.

[Activated Alpha]

Then the receivers should have been told to run behind the linebackers and sit in that zone between them and the DB's

[defiantdog]

Should've spread the zone..... with how much time he had to throw, there should've been plenty of go routes

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Isn't this the same plan Washington ran that leach never figured a way to beat it?

https://www.uwdawgpound.com/2019/11/25/20978448/petersen-vs-leach-is-an-apple-cup-mismatch-washington-huskies-football-cougars

"Lake said, “They do the same thing year in and year out […] so it makes it really easy to game-plan […] They can only do one thing – that handcuffs you a little bit. It was definitely to our advantage, and we took advantage of it.”"

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/nov/29/after-31-13-apple-cup-loss-washington-states-mike-/

"Last year, after a 28-15 win for the Huskies in Pullman, the defensive coordinator was quoted as saying, “Next year maybe he’ll throw a little curveball, but it makes it very easy when you know what you’re going to get. … But knowing what I read about the head football coach here, he does things a little bit different way. So hopefully he remains here for a long time. That would be awesome.”"

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/nov/29/john-blanchette-washington-happy-to-let-mike-leach/

"To be fair, the Cougs face eight-man coverages from other opponents, too, and seem to handle it just fine. So why are the Huskies so effective with it? “They really know what they’re doing,” said WSU receiver Renard Bell. “When most teams drop eight against us, they’re switching their defense … they’re not really accustomed to it.”". In there you also have a tweet from a former UW defensive player saying Leach never changes the O from year to year.

So basically, Leach will always run the same O with no wrinkles added and the only difference between scoring 30+ or 14- is how well the D "knows what they're doing" in a 8 man zone. Well Arky knew what they were doing.

[Eric Nies Grind Time]

What exactly do we do vs a 3 man rush with 8 dropping into zone? Running the ball vs a 5 man box? Put together 14 play drives of 4-6 yard passes? Take the top off with 50/50 deep balls? Simply get better at executing our routes and QB decision making?

Genuine question: how do we break it?

You can't. Washington had a defense that worked perfectly and for some reason other teams decided not to use it for years and years and just let Leach score 50 points out of pity.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

I know we were missing Kylin but what was REALLY shocking to me last night was that Arkansas was consistently dropping 8 yet we were STILL very ineffective running the ball overall. Did we have a run over 10 yards all night? If a defense can drop that many folks out of the box and you still can't run the ball I'm not sure what you do.

They were showing a 5 man box and then dropping the LBs to shallow zones. SO Costello checks to a pass, but it's vs 6 deep defenders in zone with the LB's eliminating shallow or crossing routes. Big runs are really hard to break vs zone because all the defenders are facing the LOS and react accordingly.

[Cooterpoot]

In the SEC, you're going to need a QB that can run. This offense with a running QB is just better. Several times the QB could've run for 10 yards. Not ours, he'd slide at 5 yards.
Honestly, the offense is too basic and the playbook too limited. We could have packages for Shrader. We could do more in the run game. But we never will.
SEC defenses will limit us to 3 yard passes and wait for the INT.

[msstate7]

https://www.uwdawgpound.com/2019/11/25/20978448/petersen-vs-leach-is-an-apple-cup-mismatch-washington-huskies-football-cougars

"Lake said, “They do the same thing year in and year out […] so it makes it really easy to game-plan […] They can only do one thing – that handcuffs you a little bit. It was definitely to our advantage, and we took advantage of it.”"

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/nov/29/after-31-13-apple-cup-loss-washington-states-mike-/

"Last year, after a 28-15 win for the Huskies in Pullman, the defensive coordinator was quoted as saying, “Next year maybe he’ll throw a little curveball, but it makes it very easy when you know what you’re going to get. … But knowing what I read about the head football coach here, he does things a little bit different way. So hopefully he remains here for a long time. That would be awesome.”"

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/nov/29/john-blanchette-washington-happy-to-let-mike-leach/

"To be fair, the Cougs face eight-man coverages from other opponents, too, and seem to handle it just fine. So why are the Huskies so effective with it? “They really know what they’re doing,” said WSU receiver Renard Bell. “When most teams drop eight against us, they’re switching their defense … they’re not really accustomed to it.”". In there you also have a tweet from a former UW defensive player saying Leach never changes the O from year to year.

So basically, Leach will always run the same O with no wrinkles added and the only difference between scoring 30+ or 14- is how well the D "knows what they're doing" in a 8 man zone. Well Arky knew what they were doing.

Good finds

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

In the SEC, you're going to need a QB that can run. This offense with a running QB is just better. Several times the QB could've run for 10 yards. Not ours, he'd slide at 5 yards.
Honestly, the offense is too basic and the playbook too limited. We could have packages for Shrader. We could do more in the run game. But we never will.
SEC defenses will limit us to 3 yard passes and wait for the INT.

That's what Kliff Kingsburry is doing at the Cardinals- air raid with no RB and a mobile QB. They're careful to have Murray avoid hits, but he does scramble for a 1st whenever the D gives it.

However, I feel like Zone does pretty good vs a mobile QB. They'll always have close guys facing the LOS

[Cooterpoot]

That's what Kliff Kingsburry is doing at the Cardinals- air raid with no RB and a mobile QB. They're careful to have Murray avoid hits, but he does scramble for a 1st whenever the D gives it.

However, I feel like Zone does pretty good vs a mobile QB. They'll always have close guys facing the LOS

Can't go empty. You still need another running threat. With two, you can't just basically spy a guy.

[msstate7]

That's what Kliff Kingsburry is doing at the Cardinals- air raid with no RB and a mobile QB. They're careful to have Murray avoid hits, but he does scramble for a 1st whenever the D gives it.

However, I feel like Zone does pretty good vs a mobile QB. They'll always have close guys facing the LOS

Defenders have to act quick though vs a mobile qb. If qb moves outside pocket, defenders get out of position quickly bc of qb running threat. This is all moot though bc leach isn't going for a mobile qb

[TrapGame]

The bad part is we figured out how to break it in the third quarter. You take what the defense gives you. If they are going to give you five yards underneath, then take it. The defense was having to crash down from 5-10 yards away every play and was eventually going to run out of gas. You take the five yard run. You take the short screens and slants. You let the defense wear themselves out and eventually you guys break one or you take a deep shot. Basically what Arkansas did to us. They burned us twice with the same screen play. KJ did it great one drive, then got greedy and kept trying to force the ball deeper into the zone.

Spot on.

Costello wanted to be the passing king again when he could have dumped it off for five yards every play. EVERY. PLAY.

Losing Hill hurt a lot. Hill could have been the difference maker on a lot of drives.

[KOdawg1]

Leach is going to have to adapt. And I know, Leach is who is his, and he hasn't shown much adapting in his career, but he's in the big leagues now. Every single defense in the country has the book on how to stop him. He's gotta throw more wrinkles in his offense. More play-action, read options, designed QB scrambles. Something he's never had to do. Because if he doesn't, we're going to have a lot of games like we had last night. And this experiment will be over before it starts.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

The bad part is we figured out how to break it in the third quarter. You take what the defense gives you. If they are going to give you five yards underneath, then take it. The defense was having to crash down from 5-10 yards away every play and was eventually going to run out of gas. You take the five yard run. You take the short screens and slants. You let the defense wear themselves out and eventually you guys break one or you take a deep shot. Basically what Arkansas did to us. They burned us twice with the same screen play. KJ did it great one drive, then got greedy and kept trying to force the ball deeper into the zone.

so basically mount 10-15 play drives of short gains, where a single missed block, penalty, inaccurate throw, bad QB decision, or slipping RB derails it? That's bleak as hell

[msstate7]

so basically mount 10-15 play drives of short gains, where a single missed block, penalty, inaccurate throw, bad QB decision, or slipping RB derails it? That's bleak as hell

If you show you can do it with some consistency though, defenses have to adapt to stop it

[Quaoarsking]

Isn't this the same plan Washington ran that leach never figured a way to beat it?

Leach figured out how to beat it last night, we just didn't execute well enough.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Leach is going to have to adapt. And I know, Leach is who is his, and he hasn't shown much adapting in his career, but he's in the big leagues now. Every single defense in the country has the book on how to stop him. He's gotta throw more wrinkles in his offense. More play-action, read options, designed QB scrambles. Something he's never had to do. Because if he doesn't, we're going to have a lot of games like we had last night. And this experiment will be over before it starts.

I feel like this is where it's at. Instead of a delayed handoff, have him block the LB. double the NT to move him, double the DE to get him wide, and then bring one of those OL off to get to the 2nd level.

You'd have the DL split like the Red Sea, and 2 blockers ahead of KJ. He'd have a clear view of the field for potential hits and should be able to slide for a 7+ yard gain and take minimal punishment. Do this a couple times and they'll have to commit to running a 4th DL, which opens up a ton of space in the zone

[defiantdog]

Our QB is afraid of a hit and freaks out when his initial receiver is covered. Offense was fine..... probably should've thrown a different qb in to try and change the pace, but I think leach though K.J. would get it together.

[HoopsDawg]

Leach is going to have to adapt. And I know, Leach is who is his, and he hasn't shown much adapting in his career, but he's in the big leagues now. Every single defense in the country has the book on how to stop him. He's gotta throw more wrinkles in his offense. More play-action, read options, designed QB scrambles. Something he's never had to do. Because if he doesn't, we're going to have a lot of games like we had last night. And this experiment will be over before it starts.

Leach will not adapt. He is not going to change his offense.

[KOdawg1]

Leach will not adapt. He is not going to change his offense.
His stay in the SEC will not be long then. Bc most of the SEC defenses are closer to Washington than they are Oregon State.

[HoopsDawg]

His stay in the SEC will not be long then. Bc most of the SEC defenses are closer to Washington than they are Oregon State.

He hasn't changed in 20 years, he's not changing now. He just feels KJ should have taken the underneath stuff all night long. And honestly, he may be right.

[KOdawg1]

He hasn't changed in 20 years, he's not changing now.

I realize that.

[tcdog70]

Leach figured out how to beat it last night, we just didn't execute well enough.

Correct--4th turnovers beat us. heath giving up the first down.KJ not running for the 1st down twice. having our # 1 offensive threat get hurt. Walley muffing a punt. The only stupid call was on the 4th and 1 --if we are air raid then throw it. Plus KJ just had several shitty passes the one to Gardner was a killer .

[Cooterpoot]

Watching 3 yard passes is going to be boring as hell. When you have to use 15+ play drives, you're going to screw up eventually. That's part of defensive football fact.

[TrapGame]

Leach figured out how to beat it last night, we just didn't execute well enough.

Yep. Then we imploded. KJ can't get greedy. He throws into triple coverage in the end zone when Gardner was wide open on the 5.

[Charlie_Sheen420]

It's pretty damn simple to figure out, you dink and dunk all up and down the field for 3-6 yard passes and take the runs for 4-5 yards a pop when they give them to you. And when you are in position for points....YOU TAKE THE DAMN POINTS! Don't come away with nothing such as not kicking FGs when your D is playing lights out. You wear out the defense with tons of plays and take advantage of that in the late 3rd and 4th...if a defense is going to give you 4 to 6 yards a play playing zone...you take what they give you every play, pretty simple...

[Quaoarsking]

The good thing is that KJ will learn from this and we'll beat Kentucky next week by taking what the defense gives us.

[PendingTransaction]

The bad part is we figured out how to break it in the third quarter. You take what the defense gives you. If they are going to give you five yards underneath, then take it. The defense was having to crash down from 5-10 yards away every play and was eventually going to run out of gas. You take the five yard run. You take the short screens and slants. You let the defense wear themselves out and eventually you guys break one or you take a deep shot. Basically what Arkansas did to us. They burned us twice with the same screen play. KJ did it great one drive, then got greedy and kept trying to force the ball deeper into the zone.

Spot on!

[ShotgunDawg]

The good thing is that KJ will learn from this and we'll beat Kentucky next week by taking what the defense gives us.
We'll beat KY

Hell, we already know the defense we'll see

[dawgday166]

Our QB is afraid of a hit and freaks out when his initial receiver is covered. Offense was fine..... probably should've thrown a different qb in to try and change the pace, but I think leach though K.J. would get it together.

I saw this some too. KJ appears somewhat gun shy I think due to his injury from Stanford ... so the clock in his head is sped up at times. And of course he really doesn't want to run at all and when he does he goes down a little too quick.

Stares down his pre-snap read/receiver too much at times. Can't do that when playing against a zone. And doesn't want to come off him to 2nd option quick enough at times either.

Receivers a few times didn't run to open grass extremely well either.

Sometimes it's better to throw ball away and live to play another down. Or let your D go to work either one ... depending on game situation.

[gravedigger]

Leach figured out how to beat it last night, we just didn't execute well enough.

Shhhh.

I was hoping to hear more about Croom and Moorhead.

[Cooterpoot]

KJ was throwing behind receivers a lot. His accuracy was nowhere close to last week. That first TD throw was incredible. But he was off last night. Still, can't play soft. He said it last week, In the SEC, It just Means More. That "more" is putting your shoulder down and getting a first down late in the game. He's a big guy, shouldn't be a problem for him.

[KOdawg1]

We'll beat KY

Hell, we already know the defense we'll see

We knew what defense we were going to see last night. Everyone knew Arky was going to pull out the zone. Leach even said so in his presser. Just executed poorly against it. Will we execute better next week? Possibly, but we knew the zone was coming last night and we couldn't do anything with it.

[maroonmania]

He hasn't changed in 20 years, he's not changing now. He just feels KJ should have taken the underneath stuff all night long. And honestly, he may be right.

I keep seeing this on multiple MSU forums but we set a completions record last night averaging about 5 yards per catch. Not sure how much more we could have 'taken the underneath stuff'. We attempted very, very few passes down the field last night. Even the pick 6 was not a very long pass just way off target.

[Charlie_Sheen420]

I keep seeing this on multiple MSU forums but we set a completions record last night averaging about 5 yards per catch. Not sure how much more we could have 'taken the underneath stuff'. We attempted very, very few passes down the field last night. Even the pick 6 was not a very long pass just way off target.

No one is saying it wasn't working, as we were moving the ball down the field with it, the problem was the horrible turnovers and then not taking the points when they were available in FGs. 4 turnovers plus going for it twice on 4th down getting no points is what killed them last night. We got a turnover in their territory and came back with nothing to show for it....

[Goldendawg]

Watching 3 yard passes is going to be boring as hell. When you have to use 15+ play drives, you're going to screw up eventually. That's part of defensive football fact.

What? Do you not remember how exciting Croom's WCO was with no YAC by our RB's after a 2 to 3 yard pattern?**

[maroonmania]

No one is saying it wasn't working, as we were moving the ball down the field with it, the problem was the horrible turnovers and then not taking the points when they were available in FGs. 4 turnovers plus going for it twice on 4th down getting no points is what killed them last night. We got a turnover in their territory and came back with nothing to show for it....

Now that I fully agree with. The mistakes and ineffectiveness in the red zone were killers. But that is different than saying our QB didn't have the patience or willingness to take the underneath stuff.

[BB30]

Well, I mean, he did adjust a bit for the zone. We ran the ball more and would have probably run it a little bit more than we did had Hill not gotten hurt on the first drive.

Obviously losing Hill was huge and has been stated ad nauseum on here but it really was. He is the difference in winning that game despite turning the ball over 4 times. The plays were there. I think we will know everything we need to about this team after the KY game. Let's see how we adjust after seeing those coverages for the first time live.

I am sure our O has seen those zones this year in practice and also saw it during prep for Arky but it is hard to imitate game speed during practice. Our guys have plenty of film to look over. I expect both our WRs and QB to be much more crisp this weekend.

[hp22]

They made it an 8 on 6 football game. And our 6th guy was the quarterback. So they had 8 to defend 5. They took our offensive line out of the game. All our runs were inside. When we did run, they tackled well. Run at left and right tackle. That's where the space is.

They took the battle at the line of scrimmage out of the game and I thought we did a poor job of taking it back.