Luginbill: Leach will have to run the ball more

[TrapGame]

Luginbill on OOB this am said with the kind of defensive talent Leach will face in the SEC he'll have to adjust his offense which includes running the ball more. He said the front seven of LSU, Bama and AU will eat his offense alive if he tries to throw it 50 times.

Thoughts?

[parabrave]

Well that was understood since day one. He needs to use his RBs in the passing game more, ala Sean Payton.

[FISHDAWG]

I think Luginbill is right ... I also think Leach already knows this

[TrapGame]

I think Luginbill is right ... I also think Leach already knows this

Exactly!

Leach is one smart sum bitch. And if he does have an adjustment here or there already he ain't shouting it from the rooftops.

[gravedigger]

Luginbill on OOB this am said with the kind of defensive talent Leach will face in the SEC he'll have to adjust his offense which includes running the ball more. He said the front seven of LSU, Bama and AU will eat his offense alive if he tries to throw it 50 times.

Thoughts?

They bring the house and it's going to cost them. He will run the ball as long as there are only 5 in the box. When they bring up the 6th man, he will throw more.

[Captain Falcon]

I guess I'd like to know what his definition of "more" is. Washington State threw the ball on 72% of their plays last year, and that's not factoring in sacks, so that number is really closer to 75-80%. We could throw the ball 70% of the time this year and still technically have run the ball more. Now I do think a back like Kylin will get slightly more carries than a typical Leach RB, but it's not going to be a drastic difference from what Leach has always done.

I also feel that there's a misconception with the Air Raid that it's just a bunch of deep heaves down the field. That's not really the case at all, Leach works in a lot of short passes that might as well be long hand-offs. Max Borghi only had 127 carries last year but he had 86 dang receptions. So in reality he only had 3-4 fewer touches per game than what Kylin had last year. Kylin will be very much be involved in things, it's just going to look different from how we used him last year.

[TrapGame]

I guess I'd like to know what his definition of "more" is. Washington State threw the ball on 72% of their plays last year, and that's not factoring in sacks, so that number is really closer to 75-80%. We could throw the ball 70% of the time this year and still technically have run the ball more. Now I do think a back like Kylin will get slightly more carries than a typical Leach RB, but it's not going to be a drastic difference from what Leach has always done.

I also feel that there's a misconception with the Air Raid that it's just a bunch of deep heaves down the field. That's not really the case at all, Leach works in a lot of short passes that might as well be long hand-offs. Max Borghi only had 127 carries last year but he had 86 dang receptions. So in reality he only had 3-4 fewer touches per game than what Kylin had last year. Kylin will be very much be involved in things, it's just going to look different from how we used him last year.

Yep, Matt Wyatt's video on Leach's offense showed how he works the gaps in the middle of the field. When the defense adjusts to cover those gaps he hits open targets downfield. We had another thread a while back about Leach running the ball more. Several people took as though he was going to pound it old school. No, just Leach running the ball 5 more times than usual a game could have a big impact. He certainly isn't going to waste Kylin Hill.

[SheltonChoked]

Luginbill on OOB this am said with the kind of defensive talent Leach will face in the SEC he'll have to adjust his offense which includes running the ball more. He said the front seven of LSU, Bama and AU will eat his offense alive if he tries to throw it 50 times.

Thoughts?
While Leach is not a running coach, he runs the ball.

Actual stats for runs per game for Leach:
TTU
2000 25.4 rushes per game (starting RB had 127 carries)
2001 23.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 142 carries)
2002 27.5 rushes per game (starting RB had 153 carries)
2003 23.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 124 carries)
2004 24.4 rushes per game (starting RB had 162 carries)
2005 25.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 148 carries)
2006 16.9 rushes per game (starting RB had 152 carries)
2007 18.9 rushes per game (starting RB had 84 carries) *this team had Crabtree and Amidola catching 243 passes
2008 24.4 rushes per game (starting RB had 141, backup RB had 114 carries)
2009 24.5 rushes per game (starting RB had 168 carries)
WSU
2012 21.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 85 carries)
2013 18.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 87 carries)
2014 20.3 rushes per game (starting RB had 87 carries)
2015 22.6 rushes per game (starting RB had 107 carries)
2016 27.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 102 carries)
2017 23.3 rushes per game (starting RB had 92 carries)
2018 21.4 rushes per game (starting RB had 122 carries)
2019 16.2 rushes per game (starting RB had 127 carries)

When Leach had a good RB, he ran the ball more. When he didn't he ran the ball less.

He has a good RB, probably the best back he's ever coached.

I expect to see Hill get at least 200 touches this season, about 120 rushes and 80 passes, based on Leach's history.

[NWADAWG]

Yep, Matt Wyatt's video on Leach's offense showed how he works the gaps in the middle of the field. When the defense adjusts to cover those gaps he hits open targets downfield. We had another thread a while back about Leach running the ball more. Several people took as though he was going to pound it old school. No, just Leach running the ball 5 more times than usual a game could have a big impact. He certainly isn't going to waste Kylin Hill.

Leach will run the ball 20 times in a row if that is what the D keeps giving him. He did it at TTech. I would have a hard time finding the sequence again but in one game he handed the ball off every play for 2 consecutive possessions and scored TDs on both possessions. The next series the D moved defenders into the box and he started throwing again. He actually makes adjustments to help his offense succeed.

[TrapGame]

Leach will run the ball 20 times in a row if that is what the D keeps giving him. He did it at TTech. I would have a hard time finding the sequence again but in one game he handed the ball off every play for 2 consecutive possessions and scored TDs on both possessions. The next series the D moved defenders into the box and he started throwing again. He actually makes adjustments to help his offense succeed.

And I believe you. But, that goes against what other posters have stated about Leach's system. I fully expect him to run Kylin Hill more than he has run any other RB in his coaching career. Why? Because he's never had a RB like Hill before. He's one of the deadliest weapons in the arsenal.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I think we'll see an offense more like the TTU days. He had some pretty good RBs at Tech. I'd expect Kylin gets between 110-130 carries and probably ends up in the neighborhood of 165+ touches. Like parabrave said I think we see something like what Payton runs with the Saints, albeit a little less running.

[TrapGame]

I think we'll see an offense more like the TTU days. He had some pretty good RBs at Tech. I'd expect Kylin gets between 110-130 carries and probably ends up in the neighborhood of 165+ touches. Like parabrave said I think we see something like what Payton runs with the Saints, albeit a little less running.

I think you're right. He did run it more during the Tech days, as far as I can tell. He's going to have an explosive back in Hill.

[ZedFedder]

The best coaches adjust. I think Leach is pretty good, so I think he will adjust.

[BiscuitEater]

The RB in a Leach Offense is ALSO a receiver.

Think that the passing offense will be as good as the OL lets it be .. Even moreso than the WRs. 'If' the QB has time to make his reads, the passing game will roll.

[SheltonChoked]

I think we'll see an offense more like the TTU days. He had some pretty good RBs at Tech. I'd expect Kylin gets between 110-130 carries and probably ends up in the neighborhood of 165+ touches. Like parabrave said I think we see something like what Payton runs with the Saints, albeit a little less running.

If the starting RB in the Mike Leach offense only catches 35- 50 passes, then the RB's not that good.

For reference, the only time that happened at TTU, he had Michael Crabtree and Danny Amedola. (I don't think we have a Crabtree or an Amidola at MSU this year) It happened at WSU, But the RB's all sucked.

Hill will carry the ball 10-12 times a game and catch 7-10 passes a game. Just like every other NFL quality RB he has had.

[MedDawg]

Luginbill on OOB this am said with the kind of defensive talent Leach will face in the SEC he'll have to adjust his offense which includes running the ball more. He said the front seven of LSU, Bama and AU will eat his offense alive if he tries to throw it 50 times.

Thoughts?

Because Bama, LSU, and Auburn don't have good run defenses?

That "SEC defenses will eat them up" is kind of a ridiculous statement that I've seen ever since State hired Leach. Bama and LSU tend to stop everyone. If anything, good passing teams have been the ones to challenge and even beat them.

That and the entire SEC doesn't have elite defenses like Bama and LSU. State will move the ball just fine against Arkansas, OM, Vandy, Missouri, A&M, and probably even UK and Auburn.

[TrapGame]

Because Bama, LSU, and Auburn don't have good run defenses?

That "SEC defenses will eat them up" is kind of a ridiculous statement that I've seen ever since State hired Leach. Bama and LSU tend to stop everyone. If anything, good passing teams have been the ones to challenge and even beat them.

That and the entire SEC doesn't have elite defenses like Bama and LSU. State will move the ball just fine against Arkansas, OM, Vandy, Missouri, A&M, and probably even UK and Auburn.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Hell, Bama has had their lunch handed to them by teams that can consistently complete deep passes. That's Bama's Kryptonite. I can see the pass rush from really good/elite defenses posing a definite problem but I think KJ is smart and talented enough to dump the ball off pretty quick.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Luginbill on OOB this am said with the kind of defensive talent Leach will face in the SEC he'll have to adjust his offense which includes running the ball more. He said the front seven of LSU, Bama and AU will eat his offense alive if he tries to throw it 50 times.

Thoughts?

My thoughs are that hes probably thinking "Air raid" = long developing deep passes, and "SEC defenses" = you dont have time for that.

I agree on the second part, you cant have your plays take forever to develop ala JoMo. But after 18 years of stats its clear that "Air Raid" both gets the ball out quick and has plenty of short throw safety valves. So im not really sure he needs to "keep the defense honest", so to speak.

Now, many posters are saying Leach runs the ball all day if thats what the D gives him... im not sold on that:

I watched the '07 TT game vs Texas, and sure enough he did run the ball literally every first or 2nd or 3rd and short down that the D gave a 5 man box to him.

However, his WSU Os always sucked vs Washington. I've always assumed it was a talent discrepancy, but Washington fans say Leach REFUSED to adapt his O either in game or between seasons, and he never ran the ball. I watched the '18 WSU v UW game and sure enough, washington was giving 3 man fronts and 4-5 man boxes all game and leach simply would not hand it off.

Is it possible Leach didnt think his 5 OL could block 3 DL well eough to ensure a good gain? Maybe. Or maybe he just wants to call the plays he wants to call whether they work or not. Im not sure which it is honestly

[StarkVegasSteve]

If the starting RB in the Mike Leach offense only catches 35- 50 passes, then the RB's not that good.

For reference, the only time that happened at TTU, he had Michael Crabtree and Danny Amedola. (I don't think we have a Crabtree or an Amidola at MSU this year) It happened at WSU, But the RB's all sucked.

Hill will carry the ball 10-12 times a game and catch 7-10 passes a game. Just like every other NFL quality RB he has had.

So you're expecting Kylin Hill to catch between 70-100 passes this year...…..that would make him our leading receiver and mean that during a regular season he would be expected to catch between 100-130 passes. That would put him in the top 10 all time in receptions in a season. I think 70-100 in a regular 12-13 game season is reasonable. But with a shortened schedule of conference only opponents and the first year in a new offense I think between 35-50 receptions would be a hell of a season.

[BrunswickDawg]

So, do we need to start an over/under on when the first "RTGDB" melt takes place on here?? I'm thinking half-time of the Arkansas game.

[TNDawg35]

The first thing to understand about Leach, is no one understands Leach. The Pirate will do whatever the 17 he wants to make sure he wins games.

[msu15]

I can't believe Shotgun hasn't commented

[StarkVegasSteve]

So, do we need to start an over/under on when the first "RTGDB" melt takes place on here?? I'm thinking half-time of the Arkansas game.

4th quarter LSU as we're trying to salt the game away.

[SheltonChoked]

My thoughs are that hes probably thinking "Air raid" = long developing deep passes, and "SEC defenses" = you dont have time for that.

I agree on the second part, you cant have your plays take forever to develop ala JoMo. But after 18 years of stats its clear that "Air Raid" both gets the ball out quick and has plenty of short throw safety valves. So im not really sure he needs to "keep the defense honest", so to speak.

Now, many posters are saying Leach runs the ball all day if thats what the D gives him... im not sold on that:

I watched the '07 TT game vs Texas, and sure enough he did run the ball literally every first or 2nd or 3rd and short down that the D gave a 5 man box to him.

However, his WSU Os always sucked vs Washington. I've always assumed it was a talent discrepancy, but Washington fans say Leach REFUSED to adapt his O either in game or between seasons, and he never ran the ball. I watched the '18 WSU v UW game and sure enough, washington was giving 3 man fronts and 4-5 man boxes all game and leach simply would not hand it off.

Is it possible Leach didnt think his 5 OL could block 3 DL well eough to ensure a good gain? Maybe. Or maybe he just wants to call the plays he wants to call whether they work or not. Im not sure which it is honestly

Check out the talent delta between WSU and UW.

WSU recruits in the 60-70's, UW recruits in the top 15. It's literally Memphis vs Ohio State.

[SheltonChoked]

So you're expecting Kylin Hill to catch between 70-100 passes this year...?..that would make him our leading receiver and mean that during a regular season he would be expected to catch between 100-130 passes. That would put him in the top 10 all time in receptions in a season. I think 70-100 in a regular 12-13 game season is reasonable. But with a shortened schedule of conference only opponents and the first year in a new offense I think between 35-50 receptions would be a hell of a season.

Yes.
Kylin Hill will have 200 touches. He will be in our top 3 receivers. That means a lot of passes caught.

That's the air raid offense. There is 18 years of evidence how Mike Leach uses Running backs..

Actual stats for runs per game for Leach:
TTU
2000 Starting RB had 127 carries, 52 catches
2001 Starting RB had 142 carries, 92 catches (Led team)
2002 Starting RB had 153 carries, 98 catches (Led Team)
2003 Starting RB had 124 carries, 78 catches
2004 Starting RB had 162 carries, 60 catches
2005 Starting RB had 148 carries, 67 catches (Led Team)
2006 starting RB had 152 carries, 75 catches (
2007 Starting RB had 84 carries, 34 catches *this team had Crabtree and Amidola catching 243 passes
2008 Starting RB had 141 carries, 36 catches, backup RB had 113 carries, and 35 catches
2009 Starting RB had 158 carries, 60 catches
WSU
Ran out of time, and the WSU RB's sucked. Kylin Hill does not suck.

And your math is wrong, a 12 games season will be 20% more catches , so if you expect 70-100 "normally", you should expect 55-80 this year. Which is what I said.



https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/mike-leach-1.html

[Cooterpoot]

I'm going to somewhat disagree. I think he'll need a mobile QB, a legit defense, and a stud WR. Look at the Cardinals and Kingsbury is doing. He's basically running our offense with a mobile QB. He brought in a great WR while trading off his RB. The defense is scrappy. Murray brings a huge advantage being able to make plays.

[smootness]

Because Bama, LSU, and Auburn don't have good run defenses?

That "SEC defenses will eat them up" is kind of a ridiculous statement that I've seen ever since State hired Leach. Bama and LSU tend to stop everyone. If anything, good passing teams have been the ones to challenge and even beat them.

That and the entire SEC doesn't have elite defenses like Bama and LSU. State will move the ball just fine against Arkansas, OM, Vandy, Missouri, A&M, and probably even UK and Auburn.

This. He thinks their front 7's are too good to throw it all day...so he thinks the solution is to RUN it against them?!

Leach's offense is designed to slice up an over-aggressive defense. It's perhaps the best offense ever constructed to do that. If a Bama is well-disciplined, it will be very hard to move it on them through the air. Of course, it will be basically impossible to move it on them on the ground.

Leach throws the ball, but he doesn't launch it down the field constantly. He uses the passing game in many ways to replace the running game by simply getting the RB or slot WR in space and advance it more quickly.

Hasn't Ole Miss proven, though, that perhaps the best way for a less talented team to beat Bama is to just chuck the ball downfield indiscriminately?

This whole 'Leach can't do that in the SEC' talk reminds me of the people who kept saying you couldn't win in basketball by just shooting 3's all game. The only problem is, it's the opposite of true. The future of football will be continuing to throw it more and more, just like the future of basketball has been continuing to shoot more and more 3's. It's just a better way of advancing the ball down the field.

[TrapGame]

This. He thinks their front 7's are too good to throw it all day...so he thinks the solution is to RUN it against them?!

Leach's offense is designed to slice up an over-aggressive defense. It's perhaps the best offense ever constructed to do that. If a Bama is well-disciplined, it will be very hard to move it on them through the air. Of course, it will be basically impossible to move it on them on the ground.

Leach throws the ball, but he doesn't launch it down the field constantly. He uses the passing game in many ways to replace the running game by simply getting the RB or slot WR in space and advance it more quickly.

Hasn't Ole Miss proven, though, that perhaps the best way for a less talented team to beat Bama is to just chuck the ball downfield indiscriminately?

This whole 'Leach can't do that in the SEC' talk reminds me of the people who kept saying you couldn't win in basketball by just shooting 3's all game. The only problem is, it's the opposite of true. The future of football will be continuing to throw it more and more, just like the future of basketball has been continuing to shoot more and more 3's. It's just a better way of advancing the ball down the field.

I don't think Luginbill has done his homework regarding Leach. I think this was a question thrown out by Bo and Luges just tried to bullshit his way through it. I mean, LSU wasn't exactly setting ground records for RBs last year. Burrow was throwing it around a lot. I guess Luges missed that whole Joe Brady inspired, Heisman winning season.

[Cowbell]

Johnny football and ole miss under Hugh Freeze are examples that you do not have to run the ball as much as people think.

[SheltonChoked]

I don't think Luginbill has done his homework regarding Leach. I think this was a question thrown out by Bo and Luges just tried to bullshit his way through it. I mean, LSU wasn't exactly setting ground records for RBs last year. Burrow was throwing it around a lot. I guess Luges missed that whole Joe Brady inspired, Heisman winning season.

A video of a bad WSU team vs an good SEC team


https://youtu.be/I0dxwNV96Uk

[ShotgunDawg]

My thoughs are that hes probably thinking "Air raid" = long developing deep passes, and "SEC defenses" = you dont have time for that.

I agree on the second part, you cant have your plays take forever to develop ala JoMo. But after 18 years of stats its clear that "Air Raid" both gets the ball out quick and has plenty of short throw safety valves. So im not really sure he needs to "keep the defense honest", so to speak.

Now, many posters are saying Leach runs the ball all day if thats what the D gives him... im not sold on that:

I watched the '07 TT game vs Texas, and sure enough he did run the ball literally every first or 2nd or 3rd and short down that the D gave a 5 man box to him.

However, his WSU Os always sucked vs Washington. I've always assumed it was a talent discrepancy, but Washington fans say Leach REFUSED to adapt his O either in game or between seasons, and he never ran the ball. I watched the '18 WSU v UW game and sure enough, washington was giving 3 man fronts and 4-5 man boxes all game and leach simply would not hand it off.

Is it possible Leach didnt think his 5 OL could block 3 DL well eough to ensure a good gain? Maybe. Or maybe he just wants to call the plays he wants to call whether they work or not. Im not sure which it is honestly

When Vita Vea was the UDub NG for most of those years, yeah Wazzou couldn?t run the ball

[TrapGame]

A video of a bad WSU team vs an good SEC team


https://youtu.be/I0dxwNV96Uk

Thanks man. I gonna piss off my wife and watch this in bed tonight.

[Jarius]

Leach will face 2 or 3 defenses this year (and every year) that we will struggle to put up a ton of points on. There is no magic potion to beat a bunch of 5 stars with a bunch of 3 stars. Leach has done more with less than any coach in the country for 20 years. He will take what the defense gives him, just like he did the 5 times he played Ole Miss, the 9 or 10 times he played A&M and Missouri, and the time he played National Championship game participate Auburn in 2013. He's not changing his philosophy. He has more talent as well, so it equals out.

[SheltonChoked]

Thanks man. I gonna piss off my wife and watch this in bed tonight.
It's not that long a video

Remember this is year 2 of Leach at WSU. Auburn played in the BCS that year.

Recruiting rankings for WSU for the 4 years before
2009 63
2010 65
2011 68
2012 58
2013 50

[SheltonChoked]

Leach will face 2 or 3 defenses this year (and every year) that we will struggle to put up a ton of points on. There is no magic potion to beat a bunch of 5 stars with a bunch of 3 stars. Leach has done more with less than any coach in the country for 20 years. He will take what the defense gives him, just like he did the 5 times he played Ole Miss, the 9 or 10 times he played A&M and Missouri, and the time he played National Championship game participate Auburn in 2013. He's not changing his philosophy. He has more talent as well, so it equals out.


Watch the cut up of the 6-7 WSU team on the road vs a 12-2 Auburn team.

[RiverCityDawg]

This. He thinks their front 7's are too good to throw it all day...so he thinks the solution is to RUN it against them?!

Leach's offense is designed to slice up an over-aggressive defense. It's perhaps the best offense ever constructed to do that. If a Bama is well-disciplined, it will be very hard to move it on them through the air. Of course, it will be basically impossible to move it on them on the ground.

Leach throws the ball, but he doesn't launch it down the field constantly. He uses the passing game in many ways to replace the running game by simply getting the RB or slot WR in space and advance it more quickly.

Hasn't Ole Miss proven, though, that perhaps the best way for a less talented team to beat Bama is to just chuck the ball downfield indiscriminately?

This whole 'Leach can't do that in the SEC' talk reminds me of the people who kept saying you couldn't win in basketball by just shooting 3's all game. The only problem is, it's the opposite of true. The future of football will be continuing to throw it more and more, just like the future of basketball has been continuing to shoot more and more 3's. It's just a better way of advancing the ball down the field.

Completely agree. To add, which makes more sense - Try and slam a bunch of our 3 star guys into a pile against Alabama/LSU 5 stars with the hopes of pushing them back or finding a hole and coming out clean on the other side... OR... Try and get the ball to our guys in space and MAYBE one of our guys can make one of their guys miss an open field tackle? It's going to be hard either way, maybe impossible, but I'd rather us try to something different from what Mullen already showed us wouldn't work against the elite defenses.

Now, obviously you can't try something different at the expense of not being able to make it work against the average and below-average defenses, but Leach's system has feasted when he had comparable or even just slightly less talent than his opponent.

[Ari Gold]

So Lugis is saying Leach wouldn’t have run Holloway up the middle on third and short much??
Ok I can live with that..

[maroonmania]

Johnny football and ole miss under Hugh Freeze are examples that you do not have to run the ball as much as people think.

And the whole reason Mullen could never really compete with Bama. Running the ball was the bread and butter of the Mullen offense and it got stymied against a great front 7.

[Todd4State]

I thought LSU and Alabama already disproved this theory?

At any rate, Mike Leach is probably OK with people telling him what he will have to do to succeed by now. It has only been happening for 20 years now.

[Todd4State]

So Lugis is saying Leach wouldn’t have run Holloway up the middle on third and short much??
Ok I can live with that..

Even worse- QB draw on 4th and 8 against Alabama when we were down by a TD late.

[msu15]

And the whole reason Mullen could never really compete with Bama. Running the ball was the bread and butter of the Mullen offense and it got stymied against a great front 7.

The offensive gameplan of the 1st halves against Bama and Ole Miss will forever piss me off. Cost us a SEC West and a conference championship, and a berth in the inaugural playoff.

[Ari Gold]

The offensive gameplan of the 1st halves against Bama and Ole Miss will forever piss me off. Cost us a SEC West and a conference championship, and a berth in the inaugural playoff.

If you think you were pissed about the first half of Bama game.. Ask Coach Collins how he felt.. or better yet ask Dan how bad Geoff ripped his ass all the way to the locker room...

And with the OM game , well Dan already had his bags packed .. That seemed to be a common theme pre egg bowl game..

[Bothrops]

Check out the talent delta between WSU and UW.

WSU recruits in the 60-70's, UW recruits in the top 15. It's literally Memphis vs Ohio State.

But how can you explain Leach beating Oregon and Stanford, like 4 out of the last 5 seasons?

[Todd4State]

If you think you were pissed about the first half of Bama game.. Ask Coach Collins how he felt.. or better yet ask Dan how bad Geoff ripped his ass all the way to the locker room...

And with the OM game , well Dan already had his bags packed .. That seemed to be a common theme pre egg bowl game..

And yet we have some fans that think he was our best coach ever.

[TrapGame]

And yet we have some fans that think he was our best coach ever.

Yep. I don't get the Dan Cult.

[Captain Falcon]

And yet we have some fans that think he was our best coach ever.

We?ve been over this... there is no such thing as a perfect coach in our history. Not even close. Dan had his flaws but is still the best coach we?ve ever had.

[Cooterpoot]

Yep. I don't get the Dan Cult.

I don't get why our fans continually bring up OM beating AL. But, here we are again.

[Captain Falcon]

But how can you explain Leach beating Oregon and Stanford, like 4 out of the last 5 seasons?

Oregon and Stanford have both been a little up and down the last few years while Washington was pretty consistent in that time. I think it’s also possible Jimmy Lake was just a better coordinator than whoever Oregon and Stanford had at DC. Some teams just have other another team’s number sometimes.

Petersen and Lake seemed to figure out the Air Raid years ago but that didn’t stop other teams from continuing to struggle with it. This offense may or may not work very often against the elite teams, but that is not new with us. And I would say it has a better chance to work against the big boys than the offenses we have historically tried. The important thing is that we can consistently move the ball on non-elite teams and then occasionally find a way to pick off one of the big boys. That’s what Leach teams have done historically and that’s all you can reasonably expect from him here.

[ShotgunDawg]

Leach is going to need to run the ball enough to prevent teams from just rushing 3.

Rushing 3 and having 8 in coverage is the way Washington neutralized this offense. If Leach can just run enough to make teams commit 4 to the pass rush, then we'll be on our way to success.

[Irondawg]

Don’t forget how much leeway Leach gives his qb to call the plays. Some qbs are going to be more willing to check to a running play than others

[TUSK]

They bring the house and it's going to cost them. He will run the ball as long as there are only 5 in the box. When they bring up the 6th man, he will throw more.

Wait a minute... You tellin' me that an offensive minded coach will run the ball when he has a numbers advantage on the LOS.... and Pass, otherwise?

http://e.lvme.me/fzrtozl.jpg

[Todd4State]

We?ve been over this... there is no such thing as a perfect coach in our history. Not even close. Dan had his flaws but is still the best coach we?ve ever had.

Give me Jackie over Dan any and every day. And for those that are too young to remember- give me 1998 and 1999 over 2014 too.

[FISHDAWG]

Give me Jackie over Dan any and every day. And for those that are too young to remember- give me 1998 and 1999 over 2014 too.

No way ... One was fired and the other left on his own.... I remember 98 & 99 ... I also remember 1980 as well and none of those years can compare to 2014

[SheltonChoked]

But how can you explain Leach beating Oregon and Stanford, like 4 out of the last 5 seasons?

He's a good coach.

[gravedigger]

Wait a minute... You tellin' me that an offensive minded coach will run the ball when he has a numbers advantage on the LOS.... and Pass, otherwise?

http://e.lvme.me/fzrtozl.jpg

sup my brother?

[SheltonChoked]

Give me Jackie over Dan any and every day. And for those that are too young to remember- give me 1998 and 1999 over 2014 too.


So rather than getting beat by a teams that won the sugar, orange and nation championship, you'd rather lose to a 5-6 Big 12 team and get blown out by a 3 win sec team?

Dan had his flaws, but you must be forgetting the eggs Sherrill laid.

[smootness]

give me 1998 and 1999 over 2014 too.

That is a bad take. It may have ended down and left a sour taste, but the ride was so unbelievably fun while it lasted.

[maroonmania]

I don't get why our fans continually bring up OM beating AL. But, here we are again.

Uh, well, because it is a good example (actually twice) of how a team with overall inferior talent can have a chance to compete and win against the superior team.

[Captain Falcon]

Give me Jackie over Dan any and every day. And for those that are too young to remember- give me 1998 and 1999 over 2014 too.

I'm kinda amazed at how you dog Mullen for how 2014 ended but give Jackie a pass for the end of '99 which was almost identical. Both teams lost in Tuscaloosa to Bama teams that won the SEC and then both had a road loss to a 4-loss team where we just played really poorly. People argue that our best wins in 2014 were against overrated teams, and while that is true, they were still solid wins in games that we dominated. And it's not like we beat a bunch of powerhouses in '99. Our best win was against an 8-4 Ole Miss team and we got to play a 6-6 Clemson team in our bowl game. The Georgia Tech team that beat us in the Orange Bowl was an 11 win team that finished in the Top 10. And in '99 we also had eek out wins against 3-8 LSU, 5-6 Memphis, 5-6 Auburn, and 6-6 Kentucky.

You say people are too young to remember, I say that nostalgia may have you misremembering what the situation actually was. We had some memorable teams in that era that were definitely good. But the run that Mullen put together as a whole was better than Jackie's run. And since we are bashing Mullen for missing an opportunity to win the West in 2014, let us not forget that in addition to '99, Jackie had teams in '97 and 2000 that were very much in the hunt to win the West and both years we proceeded to go 0-2 in our final two games against Arkansas and Ole Miss teams we should have beaten.

[Cooterpoot]

Uh, well, because it is a good example (actually twice) of how a team with overall inferior talent can have a chance to compete and win against the superior team.

With turnovers and proven recruiting cheating?

[The Federalist Engineer]

While Leach is not a running coach, he runs the ball.

Actual stats for runs per game for Leach:
TTU
2000 25.4 rushes per game (starting RB had 127 carries)
2001 23.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 142 carries)
2002 27.5 rushes per game (starting RB had 153 carries)
2003 23.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 124 carries)
2004 24.4 rushes per game (starting RB had 162 carries)
2005 25.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 148 carries)
2006 16.9 rushes per game (starting RB had 152 carries)
2007 18.9 rushes per game (starting RB had 84 carries) *this team had Crabtree and Amidola catching 243 passes
2008 24.4 rushes per game (starting RB had 141, backup RB had 114 carries)
2009 24.5 rushes per game (starting RB had 168 carries)
WSU
2012 21.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 85 carries)
2013 18.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 87 carries)
2014 20.3 rushes per game (starting RB had 87 carries)
2015 22.6 rushes per game (starting RB had 107 carries)
2016 27.7 rushes per game (starting RB had 102 carries)
2017 23.3 rushes per game (starting RB had 92 carries)
2018 21.4 rushes per game (starting RB had 122 carries)
2019 16.2 rushes per game (starting RB had 127 carries)

When Leach had a good RB, he ran the ball more. When he didn't he ran the ball less.

He has a good RB, probably the best back he's ever coached.

I expect to see Hill get at least 200 touches this season, about 120 rushes and 80 passes, based on Leach's history.

Lungbill is forgetting that leach is not coming to the SEC or a men?s sports conference for the first time. Leach torched and wrecked some great defenses in the Big 12 before they all became spread teams. I?m talking the great Texas and Oklahoma teams of their golden age of early 2000?s.

Also Leach put up numbers with Kentucky in the SEC 1990?s.

Also, NFL teams are now running his offense. This is isn?t a Valdosta State gimmick, this is an NFL mainstream offense.

[Turfdawg67]

I'm kinda amazed at how you dog Mullen for how 2014 ended but give Jackie a pass for the end of '99 which was almost identical. Both teams lost in Tuscaloosa to Bama teams that won the SEC and then both had a road loss to a 4-loss team where we just played really poorly. People argue that our best wins in 2014 were against overrated teams, and while that is true, they were still solid wins in games that we dominated. And it's not like we beat a bunch of powerhouses in '99. Our best win was against an 8-4 Ole Miss team and we got to play a 6-6 Clemson team in our bowl game. The Georgia Tech team that beat us in the Orange Bowl was an 11 win team that finished in the Top 10. And in '99 we also had eek out wins against 3-8 LSU, 5-6 Memphis, 5-6 Auburn, and 6-6 Kentucky.

You say people are too young to remember, I say that nostalgia may have you misremembering what the situation actually was. We had some memorable teams in that era that were definitely good. But the run that Mullen put together as a whole was better than Jackie's run. And since we are bashing Mullen for missing an opportunity to win the West in 2014, let us not forget that in addition to '99, Jackie had teams in '97 and 2000 that were very much in the hunt to win the West and both years we proceeded to go 0-2 in our final two games against Arkansas and Ole Miss teams we should have beaten.

https://i.postimg.cc/05cV00pz/1-AF23-D03-1-C22-485-C-9-B0-F-F8868-A622245.gif

[The Federalist Engineer]

https://i.postimg.cc/05cV00pz/1-AF23-D03-1-C22-485-C-9-B0-F-F8868-A622245.gif

Before Jackie - we were not good. For the young kids, we were basically Kansas or Illinois today. We had cool helmets but as a pre Jackie kid fan, we basically only aspired for a Liberty or Independence Bowl. Playing AF in a bowl in the 1990s was a big deal. Beating Texas in a home game was unbelievable for us.

Before Mullen - we were a flat lined program again. So Jackie did not leave us in great shape. We should not blame Jackie for this, he did not hire Croom. Also the NCAA was out to destroy Jackie.

So we can’t Exactly compare the periods. Mullen and Jackie both did a job. Mullen has a better AD. That’s a huge advantage.Templeton was basically Mr Magoo. Templeton was equivalent disadvantage to being on permanent probation.

But facing facts, Mullen was ranked #1 in the Nation. That’s huge and unbelievable. We played in a Sugar Bowl for the first time since Duquesne was a football school. Jackies best QB was Wayne Madkin. Would he even make the roster for a Mullen team after two recruiting cycles? Matt Wyatt was a Jackie QB, that kid was pointless to watch. I really thought we had better QBs in my Econ class. Mullen gave and created Dak Prescott. How many Mullen players are on a NFL roster? How many did JS have?

[Todd4State]

I'm kinda amazed at how you dog Mullen for how 2014 ended but give Jackie a pass for the end of '99 which was almost identical. Both teams lost in Tuscaloosa to Bama teams that won the SEC and then both had a road loss to a 4-loss team where we just played really poorly. People argue that our best wins in 2014 were against overrated teams, and while that is true, they were still solid wins in games that we dominated. And it's not like we beat a bunch of powerhouses in '99. Our best win was against an 8-4 Ole Miss team and we got to play a 6-6 Clemson team in our bowl game. The Georgia Tech team that beat us in the Orange Bowl was an 11 win team that finished in the Top 10. And in '99 we also had eek out wins against 3-8 LSU, 5-6 Memphis, 5-6 Auburn, and 6-6 Kentucky.

You say people are too young to remember, I say that nostalgia may have you misremembering what the situation actually was. We had some memorable teams in that era that were definitely good. But the run that Mullen put together as a whole was better than Jackie's run. And since we are bashing Mullen for missing an opportunity to win the West in 2014, let us not forget that in addition to '99, Jackie had teams in '97 and 2000 that were very much in the hunt to win the West and both years we proceeded to go 0-2 in our final two games against Arkansas and Ole Miss teams we should have beaten.

The difference is 1999 was not almost identical at all to 2014. We beat Ole Miss and won our bowl game.

The other difference is while yes, Jackie whiffed a couple of times on championships he actually won the West which is more than Dan did. And at least when Jackie whiffed he wasn't looking around for another job in the process.

So yes, again- give me a two year run where we win the SEC West and a 10 win season where we win the Peach Bowl over a really good three game run that ends in a complete letdown mostly due to the head coach.

[SheltonChoked]

The difference is 1999 was not almost identical at all to 2014. We beat Ole Miss and won our bowl game.

The other difference is while yes, Jackie whiffed a couple of times on championships he actually won the West which is more than Dan did. And at least when Jackie whiffed he wasn't looking around for another job in the process.

So yes, again- give me a two year run where we win the SEC West and a 10 win season where we win the Peach Bowl over a really good three game run that ends in a complete letdown mostly due to the head coach.

Give Dan the Alabama and LSU teams of 1999, and then let's talk.

In 1998, we got killed 42-23 by a 5-6 big 12 team and destroyed 42-6 by a 17ing 4-7 LSU team (whose other wins were Arkansas State and Idaho). We also lost to a 7-5 Air Raid Kentucky team. We played one good team that year, Arkansas. But we were never ranked higher than 23 in 1998, Being number 1 for weeks in 2014 beats that.

In 1999, we played 3 teams with a pulse, and lost to 2 of them.

2014? We played 6 teams in the top 20, and went 3-3. Oh and were #1 for 5 weeks.

IMO, 2014 hurts because we really had a chance. We never really did in 1998 or 1999.

[BrunswickDawg]

Give Dan the Alabama and LSU teams of 1999, and then let's talk.

In 1998, we got killed 42-23 by a 5-6 big 12 team and destroyed 42-6 by a 17ing 4-7 LSU team (whose other wins were Arkansas State and Idaho). We also lost to a 7-5 Air Raid Kentucky team. We played one good team that year, Arkansas. But we were never ranked higher than 23 in 1998, Being number 1 for weeks in 2014 beats that.

In 1999, we played 3 teams with a pulse, and lost to 2 of them.

2014? We played 6 teams in the top 20, and went 3-3. Oh and were #1 for 5 weeks.

IMO, 2014 hurts because we really had a chance. We never really did in 1998 or 1999.

I'll disagree a bit. We had a chance in 1999 - the Bama and Arkansas loses killed it. We were #8 in the AP going into #11 Bama. A win there gets us into the top 5 (Kansas, Tennessee, and PSU were ahead us and all lost that week). then beating Top 25 Arkansas gets us to #3 (#3 UF loosing to FSU) and Ole Miss get us to possibly tied for #2 An SEC title win against #5 Florida puts us in the mix for the Sugar Bowl against FSU instead of Virginia Tech. It's not as good of a position as we had in '14 - but it was still a shot.

[SheltonChoked]

I'll disagree a bit. We had a chance in 1999 - the Bama and Arkansas loses killed it. We were #8 in the AP going into #11 Bama. A win there gets us into the top 5 (Kansas, Tennessee, and PSU were ahead us and all lost that week). then beating Top 25 Arkansas gets us to #3 (#3 UF loosing to FSU) and Ole Miss get us to possibly tied for #2 An SEC title win against #5 Florida puts us in the mix for the Sugar Bowl against FSU instead of Virginia Tech. It's not as good of a position as we had in '14 - but it was still a shot.

I see what you mean, but even with the Bama loss in 2014, we still make the playoff if we beat Ole Miss (we were 4th in the CFP rankings).

Your argument is we had a chance if we'd won 3 more games (Bama, ark, and SEC Champ) we had a shot. We win 3 more games in 2014 (Ole miss, CFP1, CFP2), and we have a National Champ Trophy.

[BrunswickDawg]

I see what you mean, but even with the Bama loss in 2014, we still make the playoff if we beat Ole Miss (we were 4th in the CFP rankings).

Your argument is we had a chance if we'd won 3 more games (Bama, ark, and SEC Champ) we had a shot. We win 3 more games in 2014 (Ole miss, CFP1, CFP2), and we have a National Champ Trophy.

I'll never be convinced that they would have put a 1 loss, non-SEC champ MSU in the playoff. I don't care how many weeks we were #1, it wouldn't give us enough to beat out 2 1-loss P5 champs. UGA and LSU can get that benefit, but I don't believe we would have. The only way we get in in 2014 with 1 loss is as an SEC champ.

[Jarius]

Swap the budget and facilities between Dan and Sherrill and see what each team looked like. Sherrill was well known as a recruiter and still struggled at times to recruit highly rated guys to MSU, which is why he went so juco heavy. If Dan had to recruit to MSU in the 90s he would have just been another guy here. He went to state at the perfect time when the g5 and the P5 started separating and not competing for the same athletes due to sec money and tv contracts. Sherrill would have killed it here from 2009 to 2017 in his prime.

[smootness]

Swap the budget and facilities between Dan and Sherrill and see what each team looked like. Sherrill was well known as a recruiter and still struggled at times to recruit highly rated guys to MSU, which is why he went so juco heavy. If Dan had to recruit to MSU in the 90s he would have just been another guy here. He went to state at the perfect time when the g5 and the P5 started separating and not competing for the same athletes due to sec money and tv contracts. Sherrill would have killed it here from 2009 to 2017 in his prime.

Please. It's funny that you compare budget and facilities but don't compare competition. We were in a better spot relative to the rest of the country while Mullen was here but not relative to the rest of the SEC. The SEC West was miles better during Mullen's tenure than during Sherrill's peak.

[SheltonChoked]

I'll never be convinced that they would have put a 1 loss, non-SEC champ MSU in the playoff. I don't care how many weeks we were #1, it wouldn't give us enough to beat out 2 1-loss P5 champs. UGA and LSU can get that benefit, but I don't believe we would have. The only way we get in in 2014 with 1 loss is as an SEC champ.

Good point.

[SheltonChoked]

Swap the budget and facilities between Dan and Sherrill and see what each team looked like. Sherrill was well known as a recruiter and still struggled at times to recruit highly rated guys to MSU, which is why he went so juco heavy. If Dan had to recruit to MSU in the 90s he would have just been another guy here. He went to state at the perfect time when the g5 and the P5 started separating and not competing for the same athletes due to sec money and tv contracts. Sherrill would have killed it here from 2009 to 2017 in his prime.


Yeah. Dan would have really struggled with Sleepy Robinson and Steve McNair at QB with Michael Davis, Kenny Roberts, and Kevin Bouie, at RB and Tony James, Eric Moulds, and Olanda Truitt at WR. ( McNair went to Alcorn to play QB, Dan would have let him play at MSU)

Dan gets flack for recruiting, but he had a good eye for raw talent guys that normally slipped through the cracks. Put Dan recruiting in the 1990's and he lands McNair, Marlo Perry, John Thierry, Perry Carter, Etc, that were overlooked at the time.

No way those guys running Dan's offense would score 21 ppg like they did for Jackie****


Unless you want Jackie to get 2010 SEC money and Dan to get 1991 SEC money.

[Dawgology]

Yeah. Dan would have really struggled with Sleepy Robinson and Steve McNair at QB with Michael Davis, Kenny Roberts, and Kevin Bouie, at RB and Tony James, Eric Moulds, and Olanda Truitt at WR. ( McNair went to Alcorn to play QB, Dan would have let him play at MSU)

Dan gets flack for recruiting, but he had a good eye for raw talent guys that normally slipped through the cracks. Put Dan recruiting in the 1990's and he lands McNair, Marlo Perry, John Thierry, Perry Carter, Etc, that were overlooked at the time.

No way those guys running Dan's offense would score 21 ppg like they did for Jackie****


Unless you want Jackie to get 2010 SEC money and Dan to get 1991 SEC money.

Jesus...Dan Mullen with that team would have wrecked competition. They would be hell on wheels.

[Jarius]

Yeah. Dan would have really struggled with Sleepy Robinson and Steve McNair at QB with Michael Davis, Kenny Roberts, and Kevin Bouie, at RB and Tony James, Eric Moulds, and Olanda Truitt at WR. ( McNair went to Alcorn to play QB, Dan would have let him play at MSU)

Dan gets flack for recruiting, but he had a good eye for raw talent guys that normally slipped through the cracks. Put Dan recruiting in the 1990's and he lands McNair, Marlo Perry, John Thierry, Perry Carter, Etc, that were overlooked at the time.

No way those guys running Dan's offense would score 21 ppg like they did for Jackie****


Unless you want Jackie to get 2010 SEC money and Dan to get 1991 SEC money.


Lord have mercy. Do you actually believe Dan Mullen would have landed those prospects? In the 90s? He struggled to recruit with a 100 million dollar budget. I’m sure he would have cleaned up back then though. Our current head coach has made fun of how terrible our facilities were back when he coached against Jackie. But yea, if he could have invented the spread option attack 20 years prior to anyone else running it I’m sure he would have been successful. Or maybe he would have gotten fired after 5 years like he would have here if we only had an 11 game schedule and not every team in the country got to go to a bowl game.

[SheltonChoked]

Lord have mercy. Do you actually believe Dan Mullen would have landed those prospects? In the 90s? He struggled to recruit with a 100 million dollar budget. I?m sure he would have cleaned up back then though. Our current head coach has made fun of how terrible our facilities were back when he coached against Jackie. But yea, if he could have invented the spread option attack 20 years prior to anyone else running it I?m sure he would have been successful. Or maybe he would have gotten fired after 5 years like he would have here if we only had an 11 game schedule and not every team in the country got to go to a bowl game.

McNair went to the only school that would play him at QB.

The other guys I listed he'd have had to beat out Jackson state, Alcorn, and Valley. That fit's Dan's recruiting. I didn't say he'd get Deshea Townsend and Eli Manning.

And yeah Dan being a head SEC Coach at 18 years old would probably have been a bigger issue than his recruiting****

What are the rules for this thought experiment? Dan has to recruit shitty, and he has to run the offense from that time? But Jackie gets to land all the 5*'s and he is not running the Pro set I?

[Captain Falcon]

The difference is 1999 was not almost identical at all to 2014. We beat Ole Miss and won our bowl game.

The other difference is while yes, Jackie whiffed a couple of times on championships he actually won the West which is more than Dan did. And at least when Jackie whiffed he wasn't looking around for another job in the process.

So yes, again- give me a two year run where we win the SEC West and a 10 win season where we win the Peach Bowl over a really good three game run that ends in a complete letdown mostly due to the head coach.

Just don't think the comparisons you are making are even at all. The division championship we won in 1998 was against a much weaker SEC West than Mullen ever had to deal with, and touting that "we beat Ole Miss and won our bowl game" in 1999 is different from 2014 in that you're comparing an Ole Miss team that played in the Independence Bowl to an Ole Miss team that played in a New Year's Six game, and you're comparing a 6-6 Clemson team to an 11 win Georgia Tech team. Not to mention the '99 Egg Bowl was at home and the '14 Egg Bowl was on the road.

[Coach34]

Also Leach put up numbers with Kentucky in the SEC 1990?s..

Why do people keep saying this? Hal Mumme called plays at Kentucky. Dan Mullen has an OC also but he calls the plays. Leach left Kentucky so he could start doing his thing.

[Homedawg]

The difference is 1999 was not almost identical at all to 2014. We beat Ole Miss and won our bowl game.

The other difference is while yes, Jackie whiffed a couple of times on championships he actually won the West which is more than Dan did. And at least when Jackie whiffed he wasn't looking around for another job in the process.

So yes, again- give me a two year run where we win the SEC West and a 10 win season where we win the Peach Bowl over a really good three game run that ends in a complete letdown mostly due to the head coach.

Jackie wanted the bama job badly and it was Common knowledge. Media wasn't as big then. Only difference. And no social media....

[The Federalist Engineer]

Why do people keep saying this? Hal Mumme called plays at Kentucky. Dan Mullen has an OC also but he calls the plays. Leach left Kentucky so he could start doing his thing.

Call the plays or not, he was Mumme’s OC in three stops and got a promotion to Oklahoma to call the plays for Bob Stoops

According the Stoops he hired ML cause he felt Kentucky was the best coached offense he faced as the Florida DC. He said this frequently at OU as the ML offense blew Oklahoma minds. They went spread and never looked back.

LOL, Maybe Mumme should have let ML call the plays and he would not have ended up at Jackson State and Belhaven later.

[TrapGame]

Call the plays or not, he was Mumme’s OC in three stops and got a promotion to Oklahoma to call the plays for Mike Stoops

According the Stoops he hired ML cause he felt Kentucky was the best coached offense he faced as the Florida DC. He said this frequently at OU as the ML blew Oklahoma minds. They went spread and never looked back.

LOL, Maybe Mumme should have let ML call the plays and he would not have ended up at Jackson State and Belhaven later.

Yeah, somebody's career went through the roof and somebody else's career fall into the basement.

[lastmajordog]

Watching Ole Miss beat Saban in T town on ESPN with MACHINE GUN is a thing of beauty. Even though Leach doesn’t have the players on either side Freeze had that year it shows what pressure a quick throw offense can put on a superior defense. Truly hoping all the best for Coach ML.

[Cowbell]

Why do people keep saying this? Hal Mumme called plays at Kentucky. Dan Mullen has an OC also but he calls the plays. Leach left Kentucky so he could start doing his thing.

You are really stretching it here. You need to educate yourself a little bit more on the role/impact Leach had on Mumme and that Kentucky team. You need to educate yourself more on Leach in general as this is not the first time you have spouted ignorance on this topic.

[Johnson85]

Why do people keep saying this? Hal Mumme called plays at Kentucky. Dan Mullen has an OC also but he calls the plays. Leach left Kentucky so he could start doing his thing.

I dont' know who called the plays at UK, but it seems instructive that Mumme fell off the map without Leach and Leach kept doing his thing.

[Johnson85]

Please. It's funny that you compare budget and facilities but don't compare competition. We were in a better spot relative to the rest of the country while Mullen was here but not relative to the rest of the SEC. The SEC West was miles better during Mullen's tenure than during Sherrill's peak.

And when Mullen was here, we did better than Jackie against the rest of the country and worse compared to the SEC.

Mullen and Jackie were both really good coaches but were in very different situations. I'd give the nod to Mullen, but it's hard to compare because of the situations they faced. Jackie legitimately had to recruit against non-SEC teams. The SEC was better, but USM wasn't completely neutered by being in the CUSA. And the same thing that made it much easier for Mullen to dominate G5 teams also made Alabama and LSU much better, and he also had a good Arkansas team to deal with for a while. Again, I'd pick Mullen, but like comparing players from different eras, there is no objectively correct answer. The biggest drawback to Jackie was having the NCAA hate him and out to get him, but had Mullen pulled the shit with Cam and tried to turn Auburn in with Lonnie Tinkle and the SEC leadership at the time, Mullen might have been just as screwed.

[BB30]

Give me Jackie over Dan any and every day. And for those that are too young to remember- give me 1998 and 1999 over 2014 too.

I think you are letting nostalgia get in the way a bit. Jackie did some great things for us and 98-2000 was an awesome run. But, the SEC west was down significantly from where it was during Dan's time here. LSU was a tick above average and Bama was in a funk as well for the most part.

Realistically we should have won the west a couple of times during that time but we would drop a game here and there that we shouldn't have.

Mullen's teams played with much more discipline in a much tougher SEC west.

[Coach34]

I dont' know who called the plays at UK, but it seems instructive that Mumme fell off the map without Leach and Leach kept doing his thing.

You realize that Leach runs Mumme's offense right? Now Leach has certainly put his stamp on it- but Mumme is the Father of the Air Raid. Also, Mumme's fall was due to his NCAA problems- not losing Leach. Then when you add this to it:

"While the coach at New Mexico State, Mumme was the object of a lawsuit brought by four Muslim NMSU players and the ACLU, who claimed that Mumme subjected them to a hostile work environment on account of their religion.[19] The lawsuit was eventually settled out of court, when NMSU agreed to pay a sum of $165,000 to the four players. Neither Mumme nor NMSU admitted to any wrongdoing in the case"

no big school is hiring Mumme after all that

[The Federalist Engineer]

You realize that Leach runs Mumme's offense right? Now Leach has certainly put his stamp on it- but Mumme is the Father of the Air Raid. Also, Mumme's fall was due to his NCAA problems- not losing Leach. Then when you add this to it:

"While the coach at New Mexico State, Mumme was the object of a lawsuit brought by four Muslim NMSU players and the ACLU, who claimed that Mumme subjected them to a hostile work environment on account of their religion.[19] The lawsuit was eventually settled out of court, when NMSU agreed to pay a sum of $165,000 to the four players. Neither Mumme nor NMSU admitted to any wrongdoing in the case"

no big school is hiring Mumme after all that

Kentucky to SE La State to New Mexico State

Thats pretty much circling the drain for a former SEC coach. Problems with Muslims probably didnt do him in.

He was 11-38 at NMSU. His next job as Jackson State regardless. Not even Vandy is poaching 11-38 coaches in the Mountain West

[Coach34]

Kentucky to SE La State to New Mexico State

Thats pretty much circling the drain for a former SEC coach. Problems with Muslims probably didnt do him in.

He was 11-38 at NMSU. His next job as Jackson State regardless. Not even Vandy is poaching 11-38 coaches in the Mountain West

NM State has 1 winning season the last 19 years. Kentucky to SE La was because of NCAA issues. Notice after 2 seasons at SE LA- he got the NM State job. NM State also went from the Big West to the step up the WAC under him.

[Cowbell]

You realize that Leach runs Mumme's offense right? Now Leach has certainly put his stamp on it- but Mumme is the Father of the Air Raid. Also, Mumme's fall was due to his NCAA problems- not losing Leach. Then when you add this to it:

"While the coach at New Mexico State, Mumme was the object of a lawsuit brought by four Muslim NMSU players and the ACLU, who claimed that Mumme subjected them to a hostile work environment on account of their religion.[19] The lawsuit was eventually settled out of court, when NMSU agreed to pay a sum of $165,000 to the four players. Neither Mumme nor NMSU admitted to any wrongdoing in the case"

no big school is hiring Mumme after all that

You realize that "Mumme's offense" was developed as Leach was his OC? And Leach's history and success with it say it all when compared to Mumme post-Leach. And you act surprised that he can adjust to an SEC defense....

[Cooterpoot]

You realize that Leach runs Mumme's offense right? Now Leach has certainly put his stamp on it- but Mumme is the Father of the Air Raid. Also, Mumme's fall was due to his NCAA problems- not losing Leach. Then when you add this to it:

"While the coach at New Mexico State, Mumme was the object of a lawsuit brought by four Muslim NMSU players and the ACLU, who claimed that Mumme subjected them to a hostile work environment on account of their religion.[19] The lawsuit was eventually settled out of court, when NMSU agreed to pay a sum of $165,000 to the four players. Neither Mumme nor NMSU admitted to any wrongdoing in the case"

no big school is hiring Mumme after all that

He really doesn't. Mumme fell off the map without Leach. Leach has done pretty damn well.

[Todd4State]

I think you are letting nostalgia get in the way a bit. Jackie did some great things for us and 98-2000 was an awesome run. But, the SEC west was down significantly from where it was during Dan's time here. LSU was a tick above average and Bama was in a funk as well for the most part.

Realistically we should have won the west a couple of times during that time but we would drop a game here and there that we shouldn't have.

Mullen's teams played with much more discipline in a much tougher SEC west.

The West wasn't down in 2014? LSU, Texas A&M, and Auburn all finished 8-5. Arkansas went 7-6.

Remember when Jackie was our coach during the late 1990's teams played an 11 game schedule with the 12th becoming an OOC game against a FCS team or a lower level D-I team so we can assume one more win for each of these teams to make it an apples to apples comparison.

1998- Lost on the road to a 7 win Kentucky team which would be the equivalent of an 8 win team today. OSU finished 5-6 and probably makes a bowl in this era, and LSU finished 4-7 the equivalent of 5-7. We beat a 7-5 Alabama team which with Shaun Alexander which would be equivalent of the teams we beat in 2014. Arkansas won 9 games that year with the SEC West on the line. Dan never did that. Ever. Then beat a 7 win Ole Miss team on the road which again was the equivalent of beating an 8 win SEC West team in 2014.

1999- It's not Jackie's fault that our league schedule was down. We for the most part won against the teams we played. Beating an 8 win Ole Miss team would have been like beating a 9 win team in 2014- making it better than any of our wins in 2014. We also had to play our two most difficult teams on the road that year. Dan did the same in 2014 with the same results. Except that Jackie finished the year much better and didn't try to leave. Also three of our opponents that year- Memphis, Oklahoma State, and Auburn would be bowl teams in this era and Kentucky did make a bowl that year.

2000- I'm only bringing this up because you brought it up. We beat both the SEC East and West champion this year. Dan never did. This era doesn't even include the other times Jackie beat the SEC East or West champ either- 1992 Florida, 1996 Alabama, and 1997 Auburn.

Dan's entire career at MSU was beating people he was supposed to beat and very rarely getting upset. Yes, Jackie had a few bad losses but in that era there was not as big of a gap between the SEC and other conferences like there is now. He also won the SEC West and had more great wins throughout his career than Dan did.

Neither coach was perfect- Jackie's QB development was pitiful and the on the field personal fouls drove me nuts. He used the exact same excuse to start Dontae Walker over Justin Griffith as Dan did to start Holloway over Aeris. Between the two- I'm picking Jackie. If for no other reason he never neglected coaching our team while trying to find a "better" situation.

I hope I like Leach better than both of them.

[FISHDAWG]

The West wasn't down in 2014? LSU, Texas A&M, and Auburn all finished 8-5. Arkansas went 7-6.

Remember when Jackie was our coach during the late 1990's teams played an 11 game schedule with the 12th becoming an OOC game against a FCS team or a lower level D-I team so we can assume one more win for each of these teams to make it an apples to apples comparison.

1998- Lost on the road to a 7 win Kentucky team which would be the equivalent of an 8 win team today. OSU finished 5-6 and probably makes a bowl in this era, and LSU finished 4-7 the equivalent of 5-7. We beat a 7-5 Alabama team which with Shaun Alexander which would be equivalent of the teams we beat in 2014. Arkansas won 9 games that year with the SEC West on the line. Dan never did that. Ever. Then beat a 7 win Ole Miss team on the road which again was the equivalent of beating an 8 win SEC West team in 2014.

1999- It's not Jackie's fault that our league schedule was down. We for the most part won against the teams we played. Beating an 8 win Ole Miss team would have been like beating a 9 win team in 2014- making it better than any of our wins in 2014. We also had to play our two most difficult teams on the road that year. Dan did the same in 2014 with the same results. Except that Jackie finished the year much better and didn't try to leave. Also three of our opponents that year- Memphis, Oklahoma State, and Auburn would be bowl teams in this era and Kentucky did make a bowl that year.

2000- I'm only bringing this up because you brought it up. We beat both the SEC East and West champion this year. Dan never did. This era doesn't even include the other times Jackie beat the SEC East or West champ either- 1992 Florida, 1996 Alabama, and 1997 Auburn.

Dan's entire career at MSU was beating people he was supposed to beat and very rarely getting upset. Yes, Jackie had a few bad losses but in that era there was not as big of a gap between the SEC and other conferences like there is now. He also won the SEC West and had more great wins throughout his career than Dan did.

Neither coach was perfect- Jackie's QB development was pitiful and the on the field personal fouls drove me nuts. He used the exact same excuse to start Dontae Walker over Justin Griffith as Dan did to start Holloway over Aeris. Between the two- I'm picking Jackie. If for no other reason he never neglected coaching our team while trying to find a "better" situation.

I hope I like Leach better than both of them.

Todd - you're a good poster but I believe you would argue with a dead man to try and prove a point .... anyway all this only boils down to personal preference and opinion .... I'''''ve been watching state play since the early to mid 70's and still nothing compare to 2014 for me

[Johnson85]

You realize that Leach runs Mumme's offense right? Now Leach has certainly put his stamp on it- but Mumme is the Father of the Air Raid. Also, Mumme's fall was due to his NCAA problems- not losing Leach. Then when you add this to it:

"While the coach at New Mexico State, Mumme was the object of a lawsuit brought by four Muslim NMSU players and the ACLU, who claimed that Mumme subjected them to a hostile work environment on account of their religion.[19] The lawsuit was eventually settled out of court, when NMSU agreed to pay a sum of $165,000 to the four players. Neither Mumme nor NMSU admitted to any wrongdoing in the case"

no big school is hiring Mumme after all that

The NCAA problems started it, but you don't think Leach could average more than 2 wins a year at Belhaven?

[smootness]

The West wasn't down in 2014? LSU, Texas A&M, and Auburn all finished 8-5. Arkansas went 7-6.

And Bama went to the playoff and OM played in a NY6 bowl.

And if those teams lose to us, they all go 9-4. So no, the West was not down in 2014. My gosh.

[SheltonChoked]

Luginbill on OOB this am said with the kind of defensive talent Leach will face in the SEC he'll have to adjust his offense which includes running the ball more. He said the front seven of LSU, Bama and AU will eat his offense alive if he tries to throw it 50 times.

Thoughts?

Bump for the LOL

[Cowbell]

Bump for the LOL
Thanks for this LOL

[gravedigger]

Luginbill on OOB this am said with the kind of defensive talent Leach will face in the SEC he'll have to adjust his offense which includes running the ball more. He said the front seven of LSU, Bama and AU will eat his offense alive if he tries to throw it 50 times.

Thoughts?

Leach will run it (or shovel pass or swing pass) when the defense drops to fewer than 6 in the box, simple as that.

[ShotgunDawg]

Lugenbill was wrong

[Spiderman]

Luginbill on OOB this am said with the kind of defensive talent Leach will face in the SEC he'll have to adjust his offense which includes running the ball more. He said the front seven of LSU, Bama and AU will eat his offense alive if he tries to throw it 50 times.

Thoughts?

I've been trying to tell y'all about leach since he was just being whispered as a candidate.

LEACH DOES WHAT LEACH DOES.

As Holgo said, "Leach don't change shit." He's not going to "run the ball more" unless that's what the D is giving in that game.

What nobody seems to understand is the "Air Raid' isn't about plays. It's a belief in a way of doing things. Look at Oklahoma yesterday. They say they are "Air Raid" but they aren't. Riley went back to conventional coaching and thoughts and started trying to sit on the lead and milk clock. He isn't true "Air Raid", not because of the plays he ran, but because he got away from the principles of "this is what we do and how we built the lead".

He didn't stay true to the belief in the system.

[TrapGame]

Luginbill was talking out of his ass. It's obvious he knows jack about the air raid philosophy. As do a few posters around here that bleat like sheep.

[ShotgunDawg]

I've been trying to tell y'all about leach since he was just being whispered as a candidate.

LEACH DOES WHAT LEACH DOES.

As Holgo said, "Leach don't change shit." He's not going to "run the ball more" unless that's what the D is giving in that game.

What nobody seems to understand is the "Air Raid' isn't about plays. It's a belief in a way of doing things. Look at Oklahoma yesterday. They say they are "Air Raid" but they aren't. Riley went back to conventional coaching and thoughts and started trying to sit on the lead and milk clock. He isn't true "Air Raid", not because of the plays he ran, but because he got away from the principles of "this is what we do and how we built the lead".

He didn't stay true to the belief in the system.

Yup.

Danielson had a good quote yesterday when he called the air raid a reverse wishbone.

In that sense, like the wishbone, you just run the offense

[Spiderman]

Yup.

Danielson had a good quote yesterday when he called the air raid a reverse wishbone.

In that sense, like the wishbone, you just run the offense

True but it's more than that. It's a mentality. A mentality that isn't scared to redefine the norms.

Like the wishbone, it is a belief. You have to go all in. You can't just "wishbone a little or Air Raid a little."

I remember Bellard, Bryant and Switzer saying the best thing about the wishbone is you didn't have to gameplan each week. You know what you are gonna do. Same with Air Raid.


Best quote i heard from Leach yesterday was "We didn't just beat them just today. We beat them all week." It could be said "we beat em the day you bought in to this belief."