Leach and Defense

[Cowbell]

Some things we forget:

1. More possessions equals more points. That simple.

2. Less rest for defense equals more points for the other offense. Another simple fact.

3. Leach has never had that type of defensive talent and speed that he needs to offset has fast scoring offense. He will have that here. Kentucky had good defenses (by KY standard) the one time Leach had a job in the SEC.

4. Leach is not an idiot. He very much believes in defense. Listen to him talk about it sometime.

[Mobile Bay]

I can't find the quote. Mostly because there are too many others out there from him to filter through. But I have heard Leach say something like the best defense is to score again. And in the past like I said before, he as given up a lot of points to a lot of schools he shouldn't have based on talent.

Also Leach had nothing to do with Kentucky's defense. He was OC under Hal Mumme.

[Prediction? Pain.]

2. Less rest for defense equals more points for the other offense. Another simple fact.

3. Leach has never had that type of defensive talent and speed that he needs to offset has fast scoring offense. He will have that here. Kentucky had good defenses (by KY standard) the one time Leach had a job in the SEC.

WSU's time of possession ranks (National and conference-games-only Pac 12) in Leach's tenure:

2012 - 109th / 10th
2013 - 94th / 6th
2014 - 33rd / 1st
2015 - 57th / 4th
2016 - 21st / 4th
2017 - 17th / 1st
2018 - 25th / 2nd
2019 - 80th / 5th

WSU's national adjusted offensive pace rankings in Leach's tenure:

2012 - 64th
2013 - 85th
2014 - 95th
2015 - 97th
2016 - 117th
2017 - 119th
2018 - 130th

(Not sure Bill C. published 2019 stats for this category after he moved to ESPN and I haven't looked.)

WSU's national and conference-only-games Pac-12 ranking for opponents' total plays during Leach's tenure (the worse the rank, the more plays the defense faced):

2012 - 64th / 5th
2013 - 112th / 9th
2014 - 39th / 1st
2015 - 88th / 6th
2016 - 39th / 2nd
2017 - 28th / 1st
2018 - 29th / 1st
2019 - 72nd / 4th

In sum, Leach's offense, at least once he's gotten it installed, is not a hurry-up offense. Not even close. Odd though it sounds for a pass-first (and second (and third)) system, it's a methodical, ball-control offense that's usually very efficient. (In eight seasons at WSU, the offense was Top 50 nationally in S&P+ seven times, Top 40 six times, Top 30 four times, and Top 15 twice.) Now, obviously if we're not passing it well, then yeah, we're going to struggle sustaining drives and the defense is going to be on the field more. But, at least at WSU, it seems that he was usually able to avoid that. Will it work here? And if so, when? Well, we're just going to have to wait and see. It took a couple of years at WSU.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Some things we forget:

1. More possessions equals more points. That simple.

2. Less rest for defense equals more points for the other offense. Another simple fact.

3. Leach has never had that type of defensive talent and speed that he needs to offset has fast scoring offense. He will have that here. Kentucky had good defenses (by KY standard) the one time Leach had a job in the SEC.

4. Leach is not an idiot. He very much believes in defense. Listen to him talk about it sometime.


Last year WSU was 60 of 141 (.426) on 3rd down, MSU was 58 of 149 (.389).
Also interesting is WSU led the nation in fewest punts-per-play. The Leach 3-and-out talking point does not seem to be a reality.

Time of possession was once an important metric (in the three yards and a cloud of dust era of CFB), now its a worthless stat.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

I can't fathom just assuming stuff and spouting it off without looking it up first. All Cowbell had to do was google literally anything he talked about to know his assumptions were wrong. But why research before speaking if you're never wrong, right?

[thf24]

I'm too lazy to go back and find any of them, but it's been shown several times on multiple boards that defensive stats (and recruiting) during Leach's tenures at both TTU and WSU were roughly consistent with a significant period of time before he was there (and after in the case of TTU). i.e. defense did not regress significantly from the way the program typically plays as a result of Leach's philosophy.

[Bass Chaser]

I'm sorry, but at this point I don't care about stats. I just want to watch some football.

[Cowbell]

I can't fathom just assuming stuff and spouting it off without looking it up first. All Cowbell had to do was google literally anything he talked about to know his assumptions were wrong. But why research before speaking if you're never wrong, right?
What am I wrong about?

[Cowbell]

WSU's time of possession ranks (National and conference-games-only Pac 12) in Leach's tenure:

2012 - 109th / 10th
2013 - 94th / 6th
2014 - 33rd / 1st
2015 - 57th / 4th
2016 - 21st / 4th
2017 - 17th / 1st
2018 - 25th / 2nd
2019 - 80th / 5th

WSU's national adjusted offensive pace rankings in Leach's tenure:

2012 - 64th
2013 - 85th
2014 - 95th
2015 - 97th
2016 - 117th
2017 - 119th
2018 - 130th

(Not sure Bill C. published 2019 stats for this category after he moved to ESPN and I haven't looked.)

WSU's national and conference-only-games Pac-12 ranking for opponents' total plays during Leach's tenure (the worse the rank, the more plays the defense faced):

2012 - 64th / 5th
2013 - 112th / 9th
2014 - 39th / 1st
2015 - 88th / 6th
2016 - 39th / 2nd
2017 - 28th / 1st
2018 - 29th / 1st
2019 - 72nd / 4th

In sum, Leach's offense, at least once he's gotten it installed, is not a hurry-up offense. Not even close. Odd though it sounds for a pass-first (and second (and third)) system, it's a methodical, ball-control offense that's usually very efficient. (In eight seasons at WSU, the offense was Top 50 nationally in S&P+ seven times, Top 40 six times, Top 30 four times, and Top 15 twice.) Now, obviously if we're not passing it well, then yeah, we're going to struggle sustaining drives and the defense is going to be on the field more. But, at least at WSU, it seems that he was usually able to avoid that. Will it work here? And if so, when? Well, we're just going to have to wait and see. It took a couple of years at WSU.

I'm not much on possession time but on possessions per game - can you find that stat?

[Todd4State]

Leach and a lot of the old school original Air Raid guys seem to like people on the Rocky Long/Joe Lee Dunn tree that run 3-3-5 defenses. I think that's what we'll see here for the most part.

Personally I'm not too worried about defense under Leach. I think Leach is an offensive genius but it's hard for most football geniuses to find a good combination on the other side of the ball. Jackie and Joe Lee were great. Dan and Todd Grantham- and how many DC's did Dan go through before finally finding him? Even Saban who is a football genius hasn't really found an OC that has stayed for an extended time. I think Leach is the same way in that I don't think he has found his perfect match yet but I think part of the reason for that is the fact that he was at Texas Tech and Washington State where it's more difficult to attract a great DC. MSU even under Croom was able to land Ellis Johnson who was a very respected DC and Moorhead was able to land Bob Shoop. I think even Felker was able to land Jim Carmody and that was before Jackie revitalized our program. Being in the SEC will help us get good DC's. And I think Arnett was a potential home run hire that no one is talking about because of the fact that we hired Mike Freaking Leach. I think Leach and Rocky Long would have been perfect but Arnett is probably the second best thing to that.

We should be OK as long as we run a defense that fits the freakish athletes that Mississippi produces and the 3-3-5 allows us to do that.

[Mobile Bay]

Grantham really? Third and Grantham really? Nah, glad he is gone. He cost us so many games.

[BuckyIsAB****]

As long as we can avoid a rash of injuries on defense we will be competitive on that side. Leach has 3 rules. Know your job be the best and doing your job and be the most excited to play. We will do all of those and I cannot wait. It will be so much more fun to watch than the garbage we saw in 2019 even if we go 3-9 we will be better than we were a year ago

[DownwardDawg]

lol at this thread. It has been pointed out many times the Leach is very focused in defense and Understands how important it is in the SEC. His time of possession is very good. Our defense will have as much rest time as Bama/LSU defense. Is that enough??? Or so we need more??

[Mobile Bay]

lol at this thread. It has been pointed out many times the Leach is very focused in defense and Understands how important it is in the SEC. His time of possession is very good. Our defense will have as much rest time as Bama/LSU defense. Is that enough??? Or so we need more??

Mike Leach says time of possession analysis is "entirely idiotic"

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/video/mike-leach-says-time-of-possession-analysis-is-entirely-idiotic/

[smootness]

Mike Leach says time of possession analysis is "entirely idiotic"

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/video/mike-leach-says-time-of-possession-analysis-is-entirely-idiotic/

Totally agree. I've never understood it. I'm not saying it has 0 positive impact to have a high TOP, but it's not high. It's better to score a TD in 1 play than to kick a FG in 16 plays. Everyone understands that. There are times where you could possibly argue that it's better to score a TD in 16 plays than in 1 play, but I don't think it matters much at all. The primary thing that matters is that you're scoring and what you're scoring. The time it takes you to do that means essentially nothing.

[MedDawg]

Some things we forget:

1. More possessions equals more points. That simple.

2. Less rest for defense equals more points for the other offense. Another simple fact.

3. Leach has never had that type of defensive talent and speed that he needs to offset has fast scoring offense. He will have that here. Kentucky had good defenses (by KY standard) the one time Leach had a job in the SEC.

4. Leach is not an idiot. He very much believes in defense. Listen to him talk about it sometime.

I used to wonder if Leach's offense somehow caused a poor defense through personnel usage. Like when you have fast players who could play WR or CB, and you always play them as WR because you need more WR and 'care' more about offense, then your defense will suffer. Same with potential OL/DL. If you always play them as OL, then your defense will suffer.

After reading about Leach since we hired him, I no longer believe that. I think he was simply at a defensive recruiting disadvantage at Texas Tech and especially Washington State.

[DownwardDawg]

Mike Leach says time of possession analysis is "entirely idiotic"

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/video/mike-leach-says-time-of-possession-analysis-is-entirely-idiotic/


It is idiotic. That doesn’t mean his offense won’t have decent time of possession. Just means he doesn’t focus on it.

[DownwardDawg]

I used to wonder if Leach's offense somehow caused a poor defense through personnel usage. Like when you have fast players who could play WR or CB, and you always play them as WR because you need more WR and 'care' more about offense, then your defense will suffer. Same with potential OL/DL. If you always play them as OL, then your defense will suffer.

After reading about Leach since we hired him, I no longer believe that. I think he was simply at a defensive recruiting disadvantage at Texas Tech and especially Washington State.

Agree

[Cowbell]

Totally agree. I've never understood it. I'm not saying it has 0 positive impact to have a high TOP, but it's not high. It's better to score a TD in 1 play than to kick a FG in 16 plays. Everyone understands that. There are times where you could possibly argue that it's better to score a TD in 16 plays than in 1 play, but I don't think it matters much at all. The primary thing that matters is that you're scoring and what you're scoring. The time it takes you to do that means essentially nothing.

Preach On!

[Cowbell]

I used to wonder if Leach's offense somehow caused a poor defense through personnel usage. Like when you have fast players who could play WR or CB, and you always play them as WR because you need more WR and 'care' more about offense, then your defense will suffer. Same with potential OL/DL. If you always play them as OL, then your defense will suffer.

After reading about Leach since we hired him, I no longer believe that. I think he was simply at a defensive recruiting disadvantage at Texas Tech and especially Washington State.

This is exactly the way I see it. There is a reason he has wanted to get back to the SEC. Even the best teams in the conferences he has been in, have not had elite defenses.

[TrapGame]

Didn't Lincoln Riley snatch up Leach's DC from Wash St.?

Dude was taking mostly two star guys and fielding pretty decent defenses. They were arguably the best defenses in the program's history.

[Coach34]

Comes down to few things:

Converting 3rd downs offensively. That helps your D
D has to get stops on 3rd down. Get off the field.
Limit big plays
Be good in the trenches

We should be able to convert 3rd downs with the personnel we have
We will be improved on the DL- but middle of the pack in the conference
Big plays and getting off the field are the huge concern because the pass rush will be sub-par, we arent very good and LB and CB, and we have no depth on the back end of our D. We will have to blitz to get pressure- so high risk/high reward. I lean more toward risk because we just arent very good on the back end.

Just ready to kick it off and let's see what happens

[BrunswickDawg]

Beardo asked a question in the Nabors thread about how many 4 star defensive players Leach had signed -

At Texas Tech, Leach signed 5 4 stars (247) - one each in '02, '03, '04, '05 & '09
At WSU, Leach had 1 4 star on defense - signed in '15

By my count - MSU will have 7 4 star players on Defense this season. That's more than Leach has signed in his entire HC career. That talent is mostly young - with only Kobe Jones and Marquese Spencer being SR - but it is by far the most highly rated defensive roster of his coaching career.

[Cowbell]

Didn't Lincoln Riley snatch up Leach's DC from Wash St.?

Dude was taking mostly two star guys and fielding pretty decent defenses. They were arguably the best defenses in the program's history.

I believe you are correct sir

[SheltonChoked]

I don't think people realize how remote Lubbock and Pullman are....

Add to it that Lubbock was a dry county (the largest by area in the country until 2009), and it's a 30-45 minute drive to the next county.

Pullman is even more remote.

[Todd4State]

I don't think people realize how remote Lubbock and Pullman are....

Add to it that Lubbock was a dry county (the largest by area in the country until 2009), and it's a 30-45 minute drive to the next county.

Pullman is even more remote.

Definitely true about Pullman. It's in the middle of a mountain range in a desert and the closest major city is probably Salt Lake City if I had to guess. If it's Seattle- that's six hours away from there. And there are no good roads to get to Pullman.

[SheltonChoked]

Definitely true about Pullman. It's in the middle of a mountain range in a desert and the closest major city is probably Salt Lake City if I had to guess. If it's Seattle- that's six hours away from there. And there are no good roads to get to Pullman.


I think Boise, ID is closer... by about 30 minutes.

[Todd4State]

I think Boise, ID is closer... by about 30 minutes.

You're probably right. And that kind of makes my point right there too.

[TUSK]

Comes down to few things:

Converting 3rd downs offensively. That helps your D
D has to get stops on 3rd down. Get off the field.
Limit big plays
Be good in the trenches

For realz? That sounds like a pretty good "process", to me....

:rolleyes:

[SheltonChoked]

You're probably right. And that kind of makes my point right there too.

I think it makes it stronger. Boise is about the size of Jackson, but over 5 hours away.