George Washington/Thomas Jefferson - 4th of July ... Drawing the line??

[dawgday166]

Some "draw the line" needs to start happening IMO. I kinda get some irritated if someone messes with statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson or messes with 4th of July holiday.

And something I didn't know till the other day .. there are actually statues of Lenin in the US?? WTF??

[Dawg2003]

The line is different for everyone, but I personally don't hold with desecrating and taking down statues of Washington and Jefferson. They were certainly complicated historical figures like all historical figures are. But the statues of them weren't put up to glamorize the fact that they owned slaves. Confederate statues I can see taking down because those statues were put up as a middle finger, and those people did actually promote slavery.

[Tbonewannabe]

The line is different for everyone, but I personally don't hold with desecrating and taking down statues of Washington and Jefferson. They were certainly complicated historical figures like all historical figures are. But the statues of them weren't put up to glamorize the fact that they owned slaves. Confederate statues I can see taking down because those statues were put up as a middle finger, and those people did actually promote slavery.

I think you have to look at what the purpose of the monument is. What impact did that individual have or what is the monument for. Naturally the Founding fathers monuments are more towards the courage to help create this country. We don't have monuments up of Benadict Arnold or other British citizens that I know of, I am not sure why we would have other statues of traitors to the United States.

[msstatelp1]

Some "draw the line" needs to start happening IMO. I kinda get some irritated if someone messes with statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson or messes with 4th of July holiday.

And something I didn't know till the other day .. there are actually statues of Lenin in the US?? WTF??

We have people celebrating the Confederacy and Nazism so a statue of Lenin shouldn't come as a surprise. I'll bet there's one or two of Stalin if you look hard enough.

[Political Hack]

The line is different for everyone, but I personally don't hold with desecrating and taking down statues of Washington and Jefferson. They were certainly complicated historical figures like all historical figures are. But the statues of them weren't put up to glamorize the fact that they owned slaves. Confederate statues I can see taking down because those statues were put up as a middle finger, and those people did actually promote slavery.

This is my general sentiment too. We can't erase the founding fathers because they weren't perfect. In fact, they drafted the constitution in a way that allows for future generations to amend it. They anticipated change. They welcomed it from the very start. My oldest and I talk about this some and what it would've been like if we lived in the time of slavery or the heart of the civil rights movement. I'm honest with him and tell him that I hope id be on the right side of history, but given the status quo of the times, I can't be confident that I would view things like I view them now. People's surroundings, the current economy, operational standards, viewpoints in general on segregation, etc... were all so different that there's no telling what we would've thought or done in those times. Now we're educated and can see the lack of humanity for what it really is.

[BrunswickDawg]

I think you have to look at what the purpose of the monument is. What impact did that individual have or what is the monument for. Naturally the Founding fathers monuments are more towards the courage to help create this country. We don't have monuments up of Benadict Arnold or other British citizens that I know of, I am not sure why we would have other statues of traitors to the United States.

Actually, there are more than you would think. There is only a "sort of" monument to Arnold called the Boot Monument - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Monument#:~:text=The%20Boot%20Monument%20is%2 0an,but%20does%20not%20name%20him.

But, there are tons of statues and memorials to British citizens and colonial era leaders. We have a square here in Brunswick named for Governor James Wright - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wright_(governor)

Wright is best known as the only colonial governor to have reclaimed a Colony from the rebellious Americans. He did so after retaking Savannah in December 1778. Wrightsboro, Georgia is also named for him.
Savannah also has a Wright Square named for him - which also has a real interesting history with the huge Gordon memorial and the burial of Tomochichi. - https://www.savannah.com/wright-square/

I'm sure Boston, NY, Philly, Charleston all have similar items from their colonial eras.

[Quaoarsking]

Context matters.

If someone put up a statue of Jefferson somewhere to celebrate that he was a slave owner or serial rapist, or for the purpose of intimidating black people, it should come down. I'm not aware of any such statues though.

We shouldn't erase the history of how he treated his fellow human beings though, so any monument to Jefferson or Washington's accomplishments needs to be placed in proper context. That might mean including some kind of reminder plaque, or maybe just doing a better job of teaching the full story in schools. If we stop seeing the Founding Fathers as flawless gods and instead just regular people like us who stepped up when it counted, we can realize that we are just as capable as them of accomplishing great things ourselves.

[Commercecomet24]

This is my general sentiment too. We can't erase the founding fathers because they weren't perfect. In fact, they drafted the constitution in a way that allows for future generations to amend it. They anticipated change. They welcomed it from the very start. My oldest and I talk about this some and what it would've been like if we lived in the time of slavery or the heart of the civil rights movement. I'm honest with him and tell him that I hope id be on the right side of history, but given the status quo of the times, I can't be confident that I would view things like I view them now. People's surroundings, the current economy, operational standards, viewpoints in general on segregation, etc... were all so different that there's no telling what we would've thought or done in those times. Now we're educated and can see the lack of humanity for what it really is.

Very well said and insightful. My view is there has never been a civilization, country, city, state or person that was perfect. The history of every civilization and individual have issues and wrongs that were committed. I'm of the firm belief that this country was founded on correct and great principles by imperfect people(as we all are). The concepts and laws that were put into place by our founders have tried to be copied by others many times over. Not to get overly religious but God put us on this earth with free agency, the freedom to choose and to strive to be like Him. While this country hasn't been perfect it has strived to become more perfect and better, like each of us strive to be better each day(hopefully). I believe I'm a better person than I was when I was a young man. I've learned and grown in many ways, just like this country, and we're still learning and striving. I'm proud to be a son of Mississippi but more proud to be an American!

[ScoobaDawg]

This is my general sentiment too. We can't erase the founding fathers because they weren't perfect. In fact, they drafted the constitution in a way that allows for future generations to amend it. They anticipated change. They welcomed it from the very start. My oldest and I talk about this some and what it would've been like if we lived in the time of slavery or the heart of the civil rights movement. I'm honest with him and tell him that I hope id be on the right side of history, but given the status quo of the times, I can't be confident that I would view things like I view them now. People's surroundings, the current economy, operational standards, viewpoints in general on segregation, etc... were all so different that there's no telling what we would've thought or done in those times. Now we're educated and can see the lack of humanity for what it really is.


Great post. we can't erase how the times were.. so as long as the statues aren't up for the bad things in their lives.. then yes i agree jefferson, lincoln, washington and many others... should stay up to show and promote the good things in america.

[BrunswickDawg]

Hack and Commerce - y'all have it spot on and I wish more saw it that way.

The rub with those observations is that this is what those of us in the field have been working to do for years. When I was in school at State, the approach you are describing was derided as "Revisionist History", and has been heavily fought against by those outside the field of history. The modern field of history has worked hard to show through first hand accounts what was happening and why - warts and all - and we get drug thru the mud for it.

[Commercecomet24]

Hack and Commerce - y'all have it spot on and I wish more saw it that way.

The rub with those observations is that this is what those of us in the field have been working to do for years. When I was in school at State, the approach you are describing was derided as "Revisionist History", and has been heavily fought against by those outside the field of history. The modern field of history has worked hard to show through first hand accounts what was happening and why - warts and all - and we get drug thru the mud for it.

I'm a huge history buff and study constantly. I love American history but I study the history of all civilizations to compare and contrast, so I guess I have a little different view of things than the average person. I love this country and the ideas and principles that it was founded on. I also know you have to look at the bad to understand where you've been and to understand what you have to do to correct those things. Can't bury your head in the sand to warts. This country, has what i consider the greatest system ever created, by people who had a great vision but also had imperfections.

ETA wish we had the opportunity to sit down and chat sometime. I would enjoy that.

[msbulldog]

The decision to remove any statue, monument or any other historical item should be made by the ruling entity of the jurisdiction there in! People who willfully destroy them for whatever reason should be jailed.

[Mjoelner34]

And something I didn't know till the other day .. there are actually statues of Lenin in the US?? WTF??

Yep. On private property in Seattle and I can just about guarentee you that instead of being desicrated or torn down, its getting the pigeon shit polished off of it every day.

[Tbonewannabe]

Actually, there are more than you would think. There is only a "sort of" monument to Arnold called the Boot Monument - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Monument#:~:text=The%20Boot%20Monument%20is%2 0an,but%20does%20not%20name%20him.

But, there are tons of statues and memorials to British citizens and colonial era leaders. We have a square here in Brunswick named for Governor James Wright - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wright_(governor)

Wright is best known as the only colonial governor to have reclaimed a Colony from the rebellious Americans. He did so after retaking Savannah in December 1778. Wrightsboro, Georgia is also named for him.
Savannah also has a Wright Square named for him - which also has a real interesting history with the huge Gordon memorial and the burial of Tomochichi. - https://www.savannah.com/wright-square/

I'm sure Boston, NY, Philly, Charleston all have similar items from their colonial eras.

Interesting, thank you Brunswick. I guess it is just not publicized. For almost all of these monuments, most people don't give them a second glance. I am all for moving the Civil War monuments to a museum or other location if that is an issue. I don't think just destroying them is correct.

We definitely need to do better at giving information to go along with the actual monument.

[Todd4State]

My all time favorite was the people that I saw tearing down a statue of that facist slave owner Winston Churchill.

[BrunswickDawg]

I'm a huge history buff and study constantly. I love American history but I study the history of all civilizations to compare and contrast, so I guess I have a little different view of things than the average person. I love this country and the ideas and principles that it was founded on. I also know you have to look at the bad to understand where you've been and to understand what you have to do to correct those things. Can't bury your head in the sand to warts. This country, has what i consider the greatest system ever created, by people who had a great vision but also had imperfections.

ETA wish we had the opportunity to sit down and chat sometime. I would enjoy that.

We'd have to set aside a couple of days, because we would talk a lot of baseball before we ever hit history stuff!

[Leeshouldveflanked]

What will they do to Stone Mountain? Dynamite or a yuge sander?

[Commercecomet24]

We'd have to set aside a couple of days, because we would talk a lot of baseball before we ever hit history stuff!

Truth, lol!

[Commercecomet24]

My all time favorite was the people that I saw tearing down a statue of that facist slave owner Winston Churchill.

That dang Churchill lol!

[BrunswickDawg]

My all time favorite was the people that I saw tearing down a statue of that facist slave owner Winston Churchill.

It wasn't about him being a slave owner - it was about things like this -

In 1937, Churchill told the Palestine Royal Commission: "I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

And I'm not defending vandalism - but, Churchill is long known to be a very complex and controversial figure in England -
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29701767

[BrunswickDawg]

What will they do to Stone Mountain? Dynamite or a yuge sander?

Read an interesting article about this yesterday - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2020/jun/30/what-we-can-do-now-about-stone-mountains-150ft-confederate-carving

The author, Ryan Gravel, is the brains behind the Atlanta Beltline project. the TL/DNR is one idea is letting nature reclaim the mountainside. The carving has to be maintained, at a pretty big cost to fill cracks, clean, etc. He proposes that you could just stop maintenance - or even fill cracks with dirt and lichen and accelerate the process. The idea would be then leave it as an old relic, and include that as part of as total re-imagining of the park.

[msbulldog]

You know I believe all this crap is happening because it's right before the Presidential election and it is meant to embarrass Trump. They would have used any excuse to start this crap.

[Political Hack]

You know I believe all this crap is happening because it's right before the Presidential election and it is meant to embarrass Trump. They would have used any excuse to start this crap.

What's the TDS or Trump Syndrome or whatever it was that discusses people who just react to anything Trump???? Regardless, it's been operationalized and is beginning to be organized. He lit a fire that maybe needed to be lit.

[bostondawg]

Lots of great posts in this thread, but I just wanna spell it out crystal clear in case people aren't getting it.

There's a big difference between putting up a monument to honor someone despite their evil traits (Washington, Jefferson, you, me, etc.) and putting up a monument to honor someone because of their evil traits (Lee, Forrest, etc.). Every single statue in the latter category needs to come down yesterday.

And yes, there are some statues that are sorta in the middle. Some people (like Stephen D. Lee!) who did both horrendously evil things (traitor against our country, racist, fought to maintain slavery) and also did things which were positive (first pres. of MSU). In due time, as a nation we'll have to reckon with every single one of these gray cases on a case-by-case basis, considering the context in which we honor someone. Our country is gonna be just fine guys. We're having conversations we should have had 100 years ago.

[shoeless joe]

Lots of great posts in this thread, but I just wanna spell it out crystal clear in case people aren't getting it.

There's a big difference between putting up a monument to honor someone despite their evil traits (Washington, Jefferson, you, me, etc.) and putting up a monument to honor someone because of their evil traits (Lee, Forrest, etc.). Every single statue in the latter category needs to come down yesterday.

And yes, there are some statues that are sorta in the middle. Some people (like Stephen D. Lee!) who did both horrendously evil things (traitor against our country, racist, fought to maintain slavery) and also did things which were positive (first pres. of MSU). In due time, as a nation we'll have to reckon with every single one of these gray cases on a case-by-case basis, considering the context in which we honor someone. Our country is gonna be just fine guys. We're having conversations we should have had 100 years ago.

This is where it gets kinda tricky for me...none of my ancestors owned a single slave. I do have ancestors that fought for the confederacy. Even one rather famous general on my paternal grandmothers side. I have no problem holding them in high esteem for their bravery and fighting for their homeland. I don’t view them as traitors.

All that being the case...I feel good about the old flag coming down. It was the correct move. I don’t mind statues being moved, not destroyed. But I also think the book should be thrown at vandals and rioters.

However, if I had only written one of those two thing above I’d be lumped in as having a certain thought process that may not have been accurate. Yes a lot of leftist think the same...a lot of conservatives do as well. But thought is much more complex and that is getting lost in all this mess.

[Commercecomet24]

This is where it gets kinda tricky for me...none of my ancestors owned a single slave. I do have ancestors that fought for the confederacy. Even one rather famous general on my paternal grandmothers side. I have no problem holding them in high esteem for their bravery and fighting for their homeland. I don’t view them as traitors.

All that being the case...I feel good about the old flag coming down. It was the correct move. I don’t mind statues being moved, not destroyed. But I also think the book should be thrown at vandals and rioters.

However, if I had only written one of those two thing above I’d be lumped in as having a certain thought process that may not have been accurate. Yes a lot of leftist think the same...a lot of conservatives do as well. But thought is much more complex and that is getting lost in all this mess.

That is so well put. This is a very complex issue and it's not just so cut and dried.

[BrunswickDawg]

This is where it gets kinda tricky for me...none of my ancestors owned a single slave. I do have ancestors that fought for the confederacy. Even one rather famous general on my paternal grandmothers side. I have no problem holding them in high esteem for their bravery and fighting for their homeland. I don’t view them as traitors.

All that being the case...I feel good about the old flag coming down. It was the correct move. I don’t mind statues being moved, not destroyed. But I also think the book should be thrown at vandals and rioters.

However, if I had only written one of those two thing above I’d be lumped in as having a certain thought process that may not have been accurate. Yes a lot of leftist think the same...a lot of conservatives do as well. But thought is much more complex and that is getting lost in all this mess.

Most of us in the south are in that same boat. My 3x great grandfather raised a Calvary unit in Missouri, and end up a Captain under Quantrill. I'm pretty sure he owned slaves. After the war, he was a Jim Crow era legislator in Arkansas. I think part of the hard reckoning that we have to have with ourselves is to come to terms with respecting the memory of family while at the same time understanding what they were doing was wrong. You don't have to disown them, just recognize how that history impacts us today.

[starkvegasdawg]

It wasn't about him being a slave owner - it was about things like this -


And I'm not defending vandalism - but, Churchill is long known to be a very complex and controversial figure in England -
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29701767

Now be honest, you think 1/10 of 1% of the dumbasses out there tearing down statues have any 17ing clue who Churchill is...much less that he made that quote? All they see is a statue of a white guy and that's enough.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson did more for this country than any of these ANTIFA morons could do in 10 lifetimes. They are heroes and simply men of their time period. We can't judge men (and women) of the past like they are living in 2020. They had bigger issues to deal with in 1776- mostly fighting off the British so that they would not be hung in London.

Tearing down the statues isn't about avenging past injustices. It's about removing the history, customs, and traditions of the United States of America. Muhammed owned slaves and was married to multiple young girls. Are we going to start tearing down mosques too? And just for reference I am not for tearing down anything, including mosques. But contrast examples like these really show you where the "protesters'" motivations really are aimed.

[turkish]

Ol Abe has some dandy quotes I bet you guys would love.

[BrunswickDawg]

Now be honest, you think 1/10 of 1% of the dumbasses out there tearing down statues have any 17ing clue who Churchill is...much less that he made that quote? All they see is a statue of a white guy and that's enough.

I won't pretend to know because I wasn't there, but you also should presume that Brits don't know their own history, or that all protestors are a bunch of ignorant loons. Even intelligent people do dumb shit.

[dawgday166]

Lots of great posts in this thread, but I just wanna spell it out crystal clear in case people aren't getting it.

There's a big difference between putting up a monument to honor someone despite their evil traits (Washington, Jefferson, you, me, etc.) and putting up a monument to honor someone because of their evil traits (Lee, Forrest, etc.). Every single statue in the latter category needs to come down yesterday.

And yes, there are some statues that are sorta in the middle. Some people (like Stephen D. Lee!) who did both horrendously evil things (traitor against our country, racist, fought to maintain slavery) and also did things which were positive (first pres. of MSU). In due time, as a nation we'll have to reckon with every single one of these gray cases on a case-by-case basis, considering the context in which we honor someone. Our country is gonna be just fine guys. We're having conversations we should have had 100 years ago.

Not pro-Confederacy at all and war ended with right side winning but ... Lee and Forrest 2 different dudes. And if you think Lee was "evil" you know very little about Lee. Same with Stonewall.

Should their statues on public property be moved to museum or battlefields ... absolutely. Forrest tho ... he was one mean as hell SOB and could be classified as evil. Mega hard-ass ... before & after the war.

[dawgday166]

You know I believe all this crap is happening because it's right before the Presidential election and it is meant to embarrass Trump. They would have used any excuse to start this crap.

I think you may be onto something there.

[dawgday166]

Ol Abe has some dandy quotes I bet you guys would love.

Yes he did. And he did some pretty bad things to white folks (Congressmen & Chief Justice) and horrible things to Native Americans during the war that most people don't know about. Free speech didn't mean much around that time.

Complicated era and there have been hundreds of throughout history. Same with before and after the war with Irish immigrants in factories or Chinese building the railroads. Some folks/races were abused at times ... not arguing that at all. Whites up north were not all fighting to end slavery cause ... then they'd compete for jobs. Different folks fought for different things. The central issue was slavery tho without a doubt.

[Quaoarsking]

Ol Abe has some dandy quotes I bet you guys would love.

Yes, but actions speak louder than words, do they not?

[TUSK]

My all time favorite was the people that I saw tearing down a statue of that facist slave owner Winston Churchill.

I'll "one up you"... in Texico, a statue of Stevie Ray Vaughn was torn down...

Now, that's some solid "Wokeness", right there....

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Sherman was a SOB...No matter who?s side he was on.

[BeardoMSU]

Sherman was a SOB...No matter who?s side he was on.

No, not really.

[BeardoMSU]

I'll "one up you"... in Texico, a statue of Stevie Ray Vaughn was torn down...

Now, that's some solid "Wokeness", right there....

If they were smart, they'd erect a statue of Michael Bolton in it's place...**

https://media1.tenor.com/images/6803a64b59370619b2c7026ddf6c9270/tenor.gif?itemid=5696174

[TUSK]

If they were smart, they'd erect a statue of Michael Bolton in it's place...**

https://media1.tenor.com/images/6803a64b59370619b2c7026ddf6c9270/tenor.gif?itemid=5696174

That was solid, despite your commie lovin' 'tude.... I can't believe they chose Bolton over Che...****

Oh, remind me to kill you....*

[Lord McBuckethead]

The line is different for everyone, but I personally don't hold with desecrating and taking down statues of Washington and Jefferson. They were certainly complicated historical figures like all historical figures are. But the statues of them weren't put up to glamorize the fact that they owned slaves. Confederate statues I can see taking down because those statues were put up as a middle finger, and those people did actually promote slavery.

Bingo.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Most of us in the south are in that same boat. My 3x great grandfather raised a Calvary unit in Missouri, and end up a Captain under Quantrill. I'm pretty sure he owned slaves. After the war, he was a Jim Crow era legislator in Arkansas. I think part of the hard reckoning that we have to have with ourselves is to come to terms with respecting the memory of family while at the same time understanding what they were doing was wrong. You don't have to disown them, just recognize how that history impacts us today.

My family lineage came from Germany. I am sure some of them fought for the nazis. Screw them.
Who really gives a shit about our family members that fought for something 160 years ago. Its not like they raised you.

[TUSK]

No, not really.

This is one of those "ever who wins ends up on the right side of history type thingies"....

It's my understanding that Sherman made war so brutal in an effort to end it sooner...

And, as a former Marine, I can totally dig it... That being said, an "SOB" is an "SOB", regardless of what side of history one is on, IMO...

However, if one's conscious is clear, I say "light em up".....

[Commercecomet24]

I'll "one up you"... in Texico, a statue of Stevie Ray Vaughn was torn down...

Now, that's some solid "Wokeness", right there....

Now that's a reason to go to war lol!

[Lord McBuckethead]

My way at look8ng at our history is this. Shit happened. They did some terrible things. It has nothing to do with me. I owe nothing to no one. And most importantly, just because there are injustices happening today to african americans, does not mean it has anything negative to say about me. That is unless I do not stand up with them to fight for equality, then it is a little on me by my inaction.

Memorial and statues have to be reviewed one at a time. The reason they are up has to be reviewed. Stephen Lee is a great example. His bust is on the drill field because he was the first president of the university. His plaque does include LT General of the CSA. The CSA part is not the reason for it, and I would agree that it should be removed from his location.

[TUSK]

My family lineage came from Germany. I am sure some of them fought for the nazis. Screw them.
Who really gives a shit about our family members that fought for something 160 years ago. Its not like they raised you.

Do you feel as though you owe Jews "reparations" for what your ancestors did?

[TUSK]

Y'all excuse me... gotta go check on my weed patch, meth lab and hopefully spotlight and kill some beavers... brb

[dawgday166]

Sherman was a SOB...No matter who?s side he was on.

He sho was.

[BeardoMSU]

This is one of those "ever who wins ends up on the right side of history type thingies"....

It's my understanding that Sherman made war so brutal in an effort to end it sooner...

And, as a former Marine, I can totally dig it... That being said, an "SOB" is an "SOB", regardless of what side of history one is on, IMO...

However, if one's conscious is clear, I say "light em up".....

I suppose you're right here, given that just about every successful military commander was probably a giant SOB, ex. Patton, Teddy, Eisenhower, MacAuthur, Grant, et al.

To your other point about "who wins the war", there's a really good documentary from 2003 titled "The Fog of War", which focuses on Robert S. McNamara, and his service as Sec. of Defense. In the doc he talks about how if the US had ended up losing WWII we would've most likely been brought up on war crimes for our fire bombing of Japanese civilians, which we were doing in droves prior to dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[BeardoMSU]

Y'all excuse me... gotta go check on my weed patch, meth lab and hopefully spotlight and kill some beavers... brb

You and your sis still makin' murkins out of those beaver pelts y'all skinnin'?**

[BeardoMSU]

Now that's a reason to go to war lol!

Na...pretty sure Justin Bieber is a better guitar player....**

[TUSK]

I suppose you're right here, given that just about every successful military commander was probably a giant SOB, ex. Patton, Teddy, Eisenhower, MacAuthur, Grant, et al.

To your other point about "who wins the war", there's a really good documentary from 2003 titled "The Fog of War", which focuses on Robert S. McNamara, and his service as Sec. of Defense. In the doc he talks about how if the US had ended up losing WWII we would've most likely been brought up on war crimes for our fire bombing of Japanese civilians, which we were doing in droves prior to dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Saw it... it was outstanding.

The US went all "Sherman" on the Axis... the US actually "spared" Hiroshima and Nagasaki from the incendiary ordnance (as I understand) so we could gauge the effectiveness of atomic weapons...

ETA: were "incendiaries" outlawed in 1944ish??? I thought that happened later... not that it really matters...

when assholes are assholes; refer to my "light em up" quote...

[TUSK]

You and your sis still makin' murkins out of those beaver pelts y'all skinnin'?**

Well, she came in to town for my b'day recently... seems pissed at her ole man a bit...

You better not cock block me, asshole!****

[PKADogs55]

Some "draw the line" needs to start happening IMO. I kinda get some irritated if someone messes with statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson or messes with 4th of July holiday.

And something I didn't know till the other day .. there are actually statues of Lenin in the US?? WTF??

The line is about to be drawn! I get the argument about CERTAIN things (Not EVERY DAMN THING), but its getting to a point where enough is enough. As you stated, now I'M about to start taking offense. Started with the activist, if you want to call him that, asking for all statutes of Jesus to be taken down ... but only if they resembled a White Jesus. It's sort of hard not to start taking this BS personal. I'm not trying to be ugly, or start anything, but the line has been drawn!

[Todd4State]

Do you feel as though you owe Jews "reparations" for what your ancestors did?

I'm still waiting on reparations from Ikea for what the Vikings did to my British ancestors.

[PKADogs55]

I'm still waiting on reparations from Ikea for what the Vikings did to my British ancestors.

Todd .. as always, voice of reason. And yes, I completely agree.

[TUSK]

I'm still waiting on reparations from Ikea for what the Vikings did to my British ancestors.

Exactly... I feel as though my white trash, redneck brethren (and myself) have been similarly oppressed...

Can I get an "Oppression EBT Card"? I could really use 100# of yeast and some copper line...

ETA: I tee'd that one up for Beardo

[Commercecomet24]

Na...pretty sure Justin Bieber is a better guitar player....**

You tryin to trigger me man****

[Commercecomet24]

I'm still waiting on reparations from Ikea for what the Vikings did to my British ancestors.

Well Dang I guess I owe you man. I can trace my paternal line back to Rollo the first lol.

[Todd4State]

Todd .. as always, voice of reason. And yes, I completely agree.

I'm sure there are many on message boards that disagree with this. LOL.


Well Dang I guess I owe you man. I can trace my paternal line back to Rollo the first lol.

I'll be looking forward to my check in the mail.**

[Commercecomet24]

I'm sure there are many on message boards that disagree with this. LOL.



I'll be looking forward to my check in the mail.**

I wish ol Rollo would've left me some of that Viking royal family wealth lol!

[dantheman4248]

In regards to the revisionist history and statues, some of you are close but I think you're missing a key insight.

These statues aren't being torn down just cause and I disagree that we need to determine based on the "why" they were put up in keeping them or not. History is written by the victors. It is not "revisionist history" to go back and look at the facts of that. The revisionist history was already put in place. It's now a correcting of inaccurate history. We are undergoing unrevisionist history if you will.

As for the "why"... the question should not be about why they were put up. The question should be about is that "why" even correct. Was this person who we celebrate him as?

Let's take for example, a man i believe to be unjustly revered as one the great men in history. A man who was such a oligarch-serving politician, that it would make Donald Trump jealous. A man who is so revered for some of the most do nothing bullshit in American history. Obviously I'm talking about Abraham Lincoln.

Now I know at least half of you have already moved on assuming this to be bullshit, so for the half that are now morbidly curious how I'm going to vilify Dishonest Abe, just know that I'm going to say that a lot of what you have heard about the War of Northern Aggression is right. It's a bold-faced revisionist history lie to believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Before I even bring up the other reasons why that's untrue, just take it at face value. The South seceded. They didn't want to play by the North's rules. The North decides to attack them in the name of freeing slaves? Lmao. Sounds like the world police. No, the North attacked over resources. Cotton, in particular. The South was rich in resources. Mind you the original argument was over not allowing slavery to expand to new states. There was dissent among the people up north that slavery was wrong, but had it not been for the rich resources the South possessed, the two separate countries would have coexisted alongside each other and instead fought over the west.

As for what he did for stopping slavery, he did jack all. The emancipation proclamation freed slaves in a country he did not control. The most celebrated do-nothing politics ever. And then after winning the war, he didn't even help see through to the goal of abolishing slavery in total. The 13th amendment is a fluff feel-good amendment that allowed for the ugliest still abused workaround today. The 13th amendment allows for slavery for those imprisoned.

For those who need to understand what that means, the true history of police was to imprison and legally force into slavery the black man. It was a sick and awful compromise that a man with no foresight and terrible ability to lead allowed happen. It's crazy how long men were imprisoned and contracted out as labor. Lasted until WW2 in some states. Now we just have for-profit prisons and such that rely on forcing non-violent offenders into slavery. It's crazy how quick we pivoted from the civil rights movement era to allow blacks the same protections under the law as whites and not be forced into slavery for eating where the white man eats to the War on Drugs. Ronald Reagan's worst moves as presidency are often thought of as how he let the market crash in regards to oil and how he let the housing bubble begin (that W was blamed for because it finally popped under his watch). However, I posit that the War on Drugs is his worst as it was a truly malevolent endeavor. He was acting out of pure evil and there is really no disputing it.

Throughout history labor has long been a valuable resource. Cheap / Free labor is a priceless commodity. Reagan's policies allowed for a way to increase incarceration and pump that slave labor up. The crack epidemic made it easy to vilify black people again and who cares right? Just black people being slaves for non violent offenses. It's only now that we see how many white people really do use marijuana and opioids that we think it may be a problem and that the war on drugs is bad. God just typing the name out so much sounds so stupid. We have somehow made "Drug" a bad thing. Just... wow. All in the name of making blacks slaves again. Whoops I mean making america great again.

To bring this full circle, I agree that there are some merits to celebrate what the founding fathers did and how forward thinking they were. Totally totally totally agree. And with that I say that we should examine abe in this same light and recognize how non-forward thinking he was. I feel that we can all agree then that this defense does not work specifically for him. So what other defense do we have for keeping him up? Why he symbolizes the freeing of black people. Not exactly. He symbolizes a moment where society gave some rights to blacks but not really all that much. He is a monument to the white man for doing something nowhere near good enough for the black man. He is a reminder that doing less than the bare minimum can get you revered as one of the greatest politicians of all time. Abe symbolizes everything wrong with politics: do nothing bills, serving business interests over people interests, bare minimum care for the people, and worst of all: poor foresight into lawmaking and allowing for future abuse. There is no case to keep his statue up, and we should review every monument in the same harsh vein to see the true scrutiny of the opposition. You can have discourse about why he should stay up (and I welcome you to try; there should be discourse for all of these in this manner and we should examine the validity of the why that they were put up). I'm here to listen and learn, but I am confident in two things. That my argument is rock solid and that 95% of you have already stopped reading and typed out your rage response or ignored me.

[BrunswickDawg]

I suppose you're right here, given that just about every successful military commander was probably a giant SOB, ex. Patton, Teddy, Eisenhower, MacAuthur, Grant, et al.

To your other point about "who wins the war", there's a really good documentary from 2003 titled "The Fog of War", which focuses on Robert S. McNamara, and his service as Sec. of Defense. In the doc he talks about how if the US had ended up losing WWII we would've most likely been brought up on war crimes for our fire bombing of Japanese civilians, which we were doing in droves prior to dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Dr. Grill was talking about this in his WWII classes at MSU back in the early 1990s. Said his first memory as a child was the firebombing of Dresden and his family running for their lives. He hated FDR, and did a whole day on US war crimes. That was an interesting class.

[bostondawg]

Not pro-Confederacy at all and war ended with right side winning but ... Lee and Forrest 2 different dudes. And if you think Lee was "evil" you know very little about Lee. Same with Stonewall.

Should their statues on public property be moved to museum or battlefields ... absolutely. Forrest tho ... he was one mean as hell SOB and could be classified as evil. Mega hard-ass ... before & after the war.

There are lots of mean SOBs that have served as military commanders in this country--Lee, Jackson, Sherman, etc. But only the former took up arms against his own brothers in order to fight to maintain slavery. That distinction matters, sorry.

[dawgday166]

There are lots of mean SOBs that have served as military commanders in this country--Lee, Jackson, Sherman, etc. But only the former took up arms against his own brothers in order to fight to maintain slavery. That distinction matters, sorry.

As I said .. you know very little about Lee & Jackson or their motivations for fighting the war. Or their history of service to the US prior to the war. Just an example, Jackson's service in the Mexican War earned him 3 promotions in rank, the only person in that war to be promoted 3 times.

Context and perspective matters too. Washington and Jefferson were "traitors" and "rebels' at one time too.

[TUSK]

Context and perspective matters too. Washington and Jefferson were "traitors" and "rebels' at one time too.

Yup, it amazes me how easily this fact gets lost...

[dawgday166]

Yup, it amazes me how easily this fact gets lost...

Some other facts that aren't as widely known. Lee's hero was Washington. He spent his life trying to emulate him. Lee's life thought process was primarily about duty and honor as he thought relative to Washington's standards.

And neither Lee or Jackson were evil ... if Lee had been he would've laid Maryland (1862) and PA (1863) to waste much the way Sherman did. Lee didn't do that. And Lee ordered payment for everything (food/supplies) confiscated (Confederate script ... mostly worthless but the money of the Confederacy). None of the citizens or their farms were destroyed (except through destruction at the battles themselves).

[Quaoarsking]

Context and perspective matters too. Washington and Jefferson were "traitors" and "rebels' at one time too.

Yup, it amazes me how easily this fact gets lost...

It's not lost at all. Everyone knows they were traitors to Great Britain, but who cares?

Being a "traitor" isn't inherently good or bad. Being a traitor to America is bad (from my American perspective), while being a traitor to another country on behalf of America is good.

Is this concept really that hard?

[BeardoMSU]

Some other facts that aren't as widely known. Lee's hero was Washington. He spent his life trying to emulate him. Lee's life thought process was primarily about duty and honor as he thought relative to Washington's standards.

And neither Lee or Jackson were evil ... if Lee had been he would've laid Maryland (1862) and PA (1863) to waste much the way Sherman did. Lee didn't do that. And Lee ordered payment for everything (food/supplies) confiscated (Confederate script ... mostly worthless but the money of the Confederacy). None of the citizens or their farms were destroyed (except through destruction at the battles themselves).

Apropos of Lee...I remember reading this back in '17 when it was first published.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

[dawgday166]

Apropos of Lee...I remember reading this back in '17 when it was first published.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Whatever ... I never said that Lee didn't feel the white race was superior. He did. Talk about some revisionist history tho. I'd say the agenda for that article is the same as what we're seeing now ... all southerners (even Lee & Jackson) were horrible, beat their slaves practically to death, broke families up by selling them off, etc. etc. FWIW ... If Virginia doesn't secede Lee for sure and Jackson most likely fight for the Union.

So we're becoming woke now that all southerners, each and every one that fought for the south, were horrible, despicable people. I'm beginning to get it **** And all those books I've read about it, and I've got a whole set written by participants in the war, are null & void with the new revelations we're all discovering now.

[R2Dawg]

Some "draw the line" needs to start happening IMO. I kinda get some irritated if someone messes with statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson or messes with 4th of July holiday.

And something I didn't know till the other day .. there are actually statues of Lenin in the US?? WTF??

Multiple lines have continued to be crossed for a while especially this year though. The last line is upon our nation though.

[Dannyripms]

Let's be real here. It's not about the meaning of statues. It's about toppling our government and way of life. They want a communist style of government. Most people have no clue what the statue is of.

[Lord McBuckethead]

My all time favorite was the people that I saw tearing down a statue of that facist slave owner Winston Churchill.

Churchill was awesome for the British in WWII, but the dude did participate in genocide in Africa, if I am not mistaken.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Let's be real here. It's not about the meaning of statues. It's about toppling our government and way of life. They want a communist style of government. Most people have no clue what the statue is of.

Well that is just stupid. Of course it is about 17n racist statues and correcting some bullshit that should have been corrected by white people 100 damn years ago. Definitely needed to be corrected at least 50 years ago.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Let's be real here. It's not about the meaning of statues. It's about toppling our government and way of life. They want a communist style of government. Most people have no clue what the statue is of.

Your ideas and way of life has been directly under attack for what...two months now? There are black folks that have had to deal with this shit there entire lives.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Multiple lines have continued to be crossed for a while especially this year though. The last line is upon our nation though.

Good. Those lines need to be crossed.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Trump, the hill everyone is lining up to die on. What a 17n loser. I will give him this though, he sticks to his guns for a regular white citizen, unless it comes to actually doing something in their favor. You know an action. Tax break....yeah. temporary.

[dawgday166]

Well that is just stupid. Of course it is about 17n racist statues and correcting some bullshit that should have been corrected by white people 100 damn years ago. Definitely needed to be corrected at least 50 years ago.

No ... I wish it were "stupid". If this were just about Confederate statues you might be right. But when it starts being Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant and even George Washington, then it's not just about statues.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Yup, it amazes me how easily this fact gets lost...

If we were a part of the uk now, I would agree.
Washington and Jefferson also fought to establish a working relationship with the British pretty dang quickly after the war.

[Lord McBuckethead]

No ... I wish it were "stupid". If this were just about Confederate statues you might be right. But when it starts being Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant and even George Washington, then it's not just about statues.

Even with Jefferson and Washington, your statement said toppling our way of life. That is just flippin stupid, sorry it is. Overreaction and a total misrepresentation of what is happening.

[Extendedcab]

Well that is just stupid. Of course it is about 17n racist statues and correcting some bullshit that should have been corrected by white people 100 damn years ago. Definitely needed to be corrected at least 50 years ago.

No it is not, even a leading black member of BLM, just 3 or 4 days ago, criticized the "ruling party" behind BLM - George Soros. This has evolved into an open communist uprising!

See the following: https://www.newsbreak.com/district-of-columbia/washington/news/0PKb3sg3/george-soros-gave-black-lives-matter-and-antifa-over-100-million-dollars

And: https://populardemocracy.org/news-and-publications/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-0

And: https://www.influencewatch.org/movement/black-lives-matter/

And the Best one: https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/06/the-black-lives-matter-movement-is-the-enemy-of-african-americans-by-leslie-taha

[Turfdawg67]

No it is not, even a leading black member of BLM, just 3 or 4 days ago, criticized the "ruling party" behind BLM - George Soros.

Great "sources" as usual. All right leaning, mostly conspiracy theorist outlets for people like you that are looking for the "truth"... that fits their beliefs/agenda. I noticed one likes to use "woke" and "cancel culture" a whole lot. Makes sense based on your posts on ED.

Here's what Media Bias/Fact-check said about one of these sites:

"Overall, we rate Communities Digital News "Right Biased" based on story selection that always favors the Right and Mixed factually due to promotion of conspiracy theories and very poor sourcing."

[dantheman4248]

Great "sources" as usual. All right leaning, mostly conspiracy theorist outlets for people like you that are looking for the "truth"... that fits their beliefs/agenda. I noticed one likes to use "woke" and "cancel culture" a whole lot. Makes sense based on your posts on ED.

Here's what Media Bias/Fact-check said about one of these sites:

"Overall, we rate Communities Digital News "Right Biased" based on story selection that always favors the Right and Mixed factually due to promotion of conspiracy theories and very poor sourcing."

That dude used the Bible to justify slavery. He's just a troll and not worth respond to. Turn him to ignore and feel better off with out his racist spiel contaminating your screen.

[Saltydog]

Add "The History Channel" to the mix. Every Independence Day they show "The Men Who Built America". This year, they went a different route. They showed "The Food That Built America" and "The Cars That Made America". Maybe with the exception of Henry Ford, they don't bear the historical significance of some of the founding fathers.

[SheltonChoked]

The line is about to be drawn! I get the argument about CERTAIN things (Not EVERY DAMN THING), but its getting to a point where enough is enough. As you stated, now I'M about to start taking offense. Started with the activist, if you want to call him that, asking for all statutes of Jesus to be taken down ... but only if they resembled a White Jesus. It's sort of hard not to start taking this BS personal. I'm not trying to be ugly, or start anything, but the line has been drawn!

You mean the Jesus statue in the Trump email?

[Quaoarsking]

The line is about to be drawn! I get the argument about CERTAIN things (Not EVERY DAMN THING), but its getting to a point where enough is enough. As you stated, now I'M about to start taking offense. Started with the activist, if you want to call him that, asking for all statutes of Jesus to be taken down ... but only if they resembled a White Jesus. It's sort of hard not to start taking this BS personal. I'm not trying to be ugly, or start anything, but the line has been drawn!

You really shouldn't care what professional troll Shaun King (a white man who pretends to be black) says at all. He isn't liked, respected, or well known at all on the left (for example he does not support Biden's candidacy), and any accolades or importance he claims is entirely made up by himself. His entire business model is to generate clicks from conservatives outraged by the stupid trollish stuff he puts out there. He has no power beyond triggering anger in response to his nonsense.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

Well that is just stupid. Of course it is about 17n racist statues and correcting some bullshit that should have been corrected by white people 100 damn years ago. Definitely needed to be corrected at least 50 years ago.

Any historical figure can be made into a villain if you examine their life from the future and judge them by today's standard of what is right and wrong.

Martin Luther King was a womanizer and homophobe. Obvious enemy of equal rights for LGBTQ community. CANCEL

FDR - Made the decision in WWII to send all Japanese Americans to concentration camps for the duration of the war. Obvious bigot. CANCEL

So what. great men don't have flaws? Of course they do. Does that make their accomplishments not count ? Of course not.

Also, it's pretty easy to see these flaws from the future, like you are doing. I hope someone takes a look at your extremely virtuous life 100 years from now.

[BeardoMSU]

You really shouldn't care what professional troll Shaun King (a white man who pretends to be black) says at all. He isn't liked, respected, or well known at all on the left (for example he does not support Biden's candidacy), and any accolades or importance he claims is entirely made up by himself. His entire business model is to generate clicks from conservatives outraged by the stupid trollish stuff he puts out there. He has no power beyond triggering anger in response to his nonsense.

This. He's pretty much the left's "Candace Owens".

[Political Hack]

Any historical figure can be made into a villain if you examine their life from the future and judge them by today's standard of what is right and wrong.

Martin Luther King was a womanizer and homophobe. Obvious enemy of equal rights for LGBTQ community. CANCEL

FDR - Made the decision in WWII to send all Japanese Americans to concentration camps for the duration of the war. Obvious bigot. CANCEL

So what. great men don't have flaws? Of course they do. Does that make their accomplishments not count ? Of course not.

Also, it's pretty easy to see these flaws from the future, like you are doing. I hope someone takes a look at your extremely virtuous life 100 years from now.

Solid post. We've gotten to a point in America where all we do is rip each other for our faults rather than celebrate our accomplishments. It's not just political either. It's the news. It's sports. Academics. Etc... "Excellence" is the only acceptable outcome. "C" students, that are average, are frowned upon. Average isn't poor. It's average!!!

[Extendedcab]

Great "sources" as usual. All right leaning, mostly conspiracy theorist outlets for people like you that are looking for the "truth"... that fits their beliefs/agenda. I noticed one likes to use "woke" and "cancel culture" a whole lot. Makes sense based on your posts on ED.

Here's what Media Bias/Fact-check said about one of these sites:

"Overall, we rate Communities Digital News "Right Biased" based on story selection that always favors the Right and Mixed factually due to promotion of conspiracy theories and very poor sourcing."


Everything is right leaning to you except CNN! Time to view another news source!

[Commercecomet24]

Solid post. We've gotten to a point in America where all we do is rip each other for our faults rather than celebrate our accomplishments. It's not just political either. It's the news. It's sports. Academics. Etc... "Excellence" is the only acceptable outcome. "C" students, that are average, are frowned upon. Average isn't poor. It's average!!!

You nailed it Hack. Every human being, every culture, every country etc has not or will never be perfect. Way to much hate, anger and negativity. It's so very sad what's happening in this country right now. I worry about the future my children and grand children face.

[dawgday166]

No it is not, even a leading black member of BLM, just 3 or 4 days ago, criticized the "ruling party" behind BLM - George Soros. This has evolved into an open communist uprising!

See the following: https://www.newsbreak.com/district-of-columbia/washington/news/0PKb3sg3/george-soros-gave-black-lives-matter-and-antifa-over-100-million-dollars

And: https://populardemocracy.org/news-and-publications/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-0

And: https://www.influencewatch.org/movement/black-lives-matter/

And the Best one: https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/06/the-black-lives-matter-movement-is-the-enemy-of-african-americans-by-leslie-taha

I was pretty skeptical a while back on the George Soros thing. Have heard it a good bit over the years and my Mom swears by it. I used to laugh at her.

So a while back when these riots started I was seeing a lot of the Soros stuff and wasn't buying. So I called someone who I hadn't talked to in a long time who keeps up with all kinds of political topics, etc. While talking with him, he pointed me to these guidestones located in Georgia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCTiIlghNeY&list=PLVUHZ9M3CxFnW9dcp8al8OUaZ8fbAtxQi&index=6

Now anything can be put out there on youTube or the internet however, Wikipedia has an entry for them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

The description in Wikipedia is pretty enlightening. Someone spent a TON of $$ to erect those in GA in 1980. My question: Why and what would be the return on the investment?

[Dannyripms]

Any historical figure can be made into a villain if you examine their life from the future and judge them by today's standard of what is right and wrong.

Martin Luther King was a womanizer and homophobe. Obvious enemy of equal rights for LGBTQ community. CANCEL

FDR - Made the decision in WWII to send all Japanese Americans to concentration camps for the duration of the war. Obvious bigot. CANCEL

So what. great men don't have flaws? Of course they do. Does that make their accomplishments not count ? Of course not.

Also, it's pretty easy to see these flaws from the future, like you are doing. I hope someone takes a look at your extremely virtuous life 100 years from now.



Post of the year. People never take in the context of what was those years like. Back in the day people used to invade other countries, cut the kings head off, kill all the men and enslave the women and children. That was all races and all religions. But during that time that was the norm, was it right? Heck no. I like to think we have advanced as a humans and are more civilized. We have gotten better and we need to strive to do better but to look at history and try to condem a race based off 100 or more years ago is crazy. People say we need to look forward and move forward, well, that's what we all want so why don't some want to do it? Because there's money in keeping people at each other. It's total ridiculous and needs to stop.