3 major sports, GOAT.......

[basedog]

Got to thinking about who I thought are the GOATS for MLB, NFL and NBA. Here are mine:

NBA/MJ

MLB/Babe Ruth although we never saw him play.

NFL/Jim Brown. This is the toughest one for me, but watching him on replays, he was just incredible. I saw an interview with him once, he stated when he was tackled he would get up slow, mainly because he didn't want the other team know he was hurt or tired.

Jim Brown and MJ retired in their prime.

[ShotgunDawg]

I'll go with players that I actually saw play, since that's the only way to really do it.

NBA - Jordan

MLB - Bonds

NFL - Brady

[Political Hack]

Mike
Tom
Babe

[ShotgunDawg]

Bonds is better than the Babe

[Lord McBuckethead]

If I were to list people I saw play, I may be able to get it down to 3-5 in each sport
NBA - Jordan, Kobe, James
MLB hitters - Bonds, McGuire, Pujols, Ken Griffey Jr.
MLB Pitchers - Maddox, Clemmons, Kerry Wood (prior to injury), Randy Johnson
NFL - Brady, Montana, Marino, Adrian Peterson

One of my favorite players to watch was Ichiro. Dude flat out did everything well and played about as hard as someone could. He just wasn't the absolute best at any one thing.
Bonds, although he was a blatant cheaters, hit a shit ton of hrs with taking around 40% intentional walks. Absolute crazy HR/AB numbers. He could have had around 90 that season if they pitched to him.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Bonds is better than the Babe

Agreed, and he played during a time where pitchers were soooooo much better. So specialized. Enhanced analytics and all.

[Commercecomet24]

MJ
Brady
I guess I'm going with Ruth since he was not only a great hitter but a pretty dang good pitcher early on too and he also changed the game. Baseball is a tough one for me because there have been so many greats. I believe Mantle was the most talented ever and had he taken better care of himself would've put up some insane numbers. Willie Mays, Aaron as well as some other it's a tough call. Trout is still young. Like I said it's a tough call and extremely open to opinion.

[KOdawg1]

I think MJ for the NBA and Brady for the NFL are pretty easy.

You can make the argument for several players in MLB but I'm gonna go with Hank Aaron

[shoeless joe]

Bonds is better than the Babe

Holy shit

[shoeless joe]

Jordan, Jim brown, and baseball is tough for me...granted I didn’t see them play but mantle and mays have got to be two of the best all around baseball talents ever.

[dawgday166]

Bonds is better than the Babe

You're delirious ... not even close.

[ShotgunDawg]

You're delirious ... not even close.

How do you know? Did you see Ruth play?

If not, then you’re just going off what someone told you rather than your own opinion

Ruth was the best of his era but it takes about 5 seconds of comparing the two on YouTube videos to realize that Barry was way way way more talented.

Production was basically a wash

[dawgday166]

How do you know? Did you see Ruth play?

If not, then you’re just going off what someone told rather than your own opinion

Ruth was the best of his era but it takes about 5 seconds of comparing the two on YouTube videos to realize that Barry was way way way more talented.

Look at his stats ... hitting and pitching. World Series too (won 3 with Boston). And he didn't roid up and work out like a madman. He ate hot dogs, drank beer and chased women all night. Bonds ain't as good as Chipper if he don't roid up.

[ShotgunDawg]

Bonds ain't as good as Chipper if he don't roid up.

This is a ridiculous comment. Secondly, how do you know Chipper didn’t Roids up?

You don’t think Ruth used amphetamines and went to the furthest extent to take advantage of legal rules during his day?

How do you know he just chased women and drank beer?

How do you know he didn’t throw 85 mph on the mound? Could Bonds have pitched in Ruth’s era?

Who is the best baseball player your EYES have ever seen?

[Commercecomet24]

How do you know? Did you see Ruth play?

If not, then you’re just going off what someone told you rather than your own opinion

Ruth was the best of his era but it takes about 5 seconds of comparing the two on YouTube videos to realize that Barry was way way way more talented.

Production was basically a wash

Yes but what are you basing GOAT status on? Production or talent? Becuase Tom Brady sure isn't the most talented football player that ever lived, but he is the most productive and succesful. MJ is both talented and productive.So there could be categories of GOAT, most talented or most productive. Based on production AND success Babe would top Bonds i.e. world titles, stats, fact babe was a successful pitcher. Talent wise Bonds would get the nod, so what are you basing it on, talent or production?

ETA and this is the reason baseball gets these type responses more than any other sport and I love that about the game.

[dawgday166]

This is a ridiculous comment. Secondly, how do you know Chipper didn’t Roids up?

You don’t think Ruth used amphetamines and went to the furthest extent to take advantage of legal rules during his day?

How do you know he just chased women and drank beer?

How do you know he didn’t throw 85 mph on the mound? Could Bonds have pitched in Ruth’s era?

Who is the best baseball player your EYES have ever seen?

Cause if he had he would've been better than Bonds. If Bonds doesn't roid up later in his career, his and Chipper stats would be pretty close and Chipper still has him on lifetime BA.

ETA: The best baseball player my eyes have ever seen ... probably Griffey Jr for pure talent. Longevity + talent probably Hank Aaron.

[ShotgunDawg]

Ruth has a 20 WAR lead on Bonds all time. However, exactly 20 of Ruth’s WAR came as a pitcher, thus making their offensive WAR exactly the same.

To separate them, your going to have to use more than stats and hopefully this discussion is actually a little deeper than stats since they don’t tell the entire story.

[ShotgunDawg]

Cause if he had he would've been better than Bonds. If Bonds doesn't roid up later in his career, his and Chipper stats would be pretty close and Chipper still has him on lifetime BA.

But how do you know Chipper didn’t use Roids?

[Commercecomet24]

An argument could also be made that based on just sheer talent that Mays and Mantle were Bonds equivalent.

[ShotgunDawg]

Yes but what are you basing GOAT status on? Production or talent? Becuase Tom Brady sure isn't the most talented football player that ever lived, but he is the most productive and succesful. MJ is both talented and productive.So there could be categories of GOAT, most talented or most productive. Based on production AND success Babe would top Bonds i.e. world titles, stats, fact babe was a successful pitcher. Talent wise Bonds would get the nod, so what are you basing it on, talent or production?

ETA and this is the reason baseball gets these type responses more than any other sport and I love that about the game.

A reasonable combination of stats and talent.

Stats matter greatly until the stats are so reasonably close that you just take the more talented player.

[ShotgunDawg]

An argument could also be made that based on just sheer talent that Mays and Mantle were Bonds equivalent.

Mays more than Mantle but Mantle's injuries make him tough.

All I know is this: Barry Lamar Bonds is the best baseball player these two eyes have ever seen. And his stats insinuate that he is right there as the all time best with Ruth.

[Commercecomet24]

A reasonable combination of stats and talent.

Stats matter greatly until the stats are so reasonably close that you just take the more talented player.

I agree, however I place a big importance on Championships won as well as stats, to me that makes a GOAT and Babe outpaces Bonds big time in that area(and yeah I know it's a team sport but so are they all) and "you play to win the game". This is a great discussion and enjoyable thread.

[parabrave]

MLB Bonds is way down on the list. I'd put Rose, Williams and Dimaggio as the top 3. Glad to see someone put JR on the greatest MLB list. If there had been no strike he would've had the greatest season ever. Heck he had 54 dingers when the strike happened. Glavine you not only ruined his season but you also prevented the Expos from going to the World series that year also. NBA Jordan and NFL Staubach,

[dawgday166]

A reasonable combination of stats and talent.

Stats matter greatly until the stats are so reasonably close that you just take the more talented player.

How are the stats "reasonably close". Only HRs & walks. Babe much greater in every other category. And he spent his 1st 5 years in the league as a pitcher. And his pitching stats are upper tier and he held consecutive scoreless innings pitched in WS record until 1960.

[Commercecomet24]

Mays more than Mantle but Mantle's injuries make him tough.

All I know is this: Barry Lamar Bonds is the best baseball player these two eyes have ever seen. And his stats insinuate that he is right there as the all time best with Ruth.

And that's what I love about the game of baseball. No other sport like it. I think Babe and Bonds were both 2 immortals of the game.

Agree on the Mays/Mantle assessment. Mickey is a tough one. He had so much talent and so little regard for his body and life.

[dawgday166]

MLB Bonds is way down on the list. I'd put Rose, Williams and Dimaggio as the top 3. Glad to see someone put JR on the greatest MLB list. If there had been no strike he would've had the greatest season ever. Heck he had 54 dingers when the strike happened. Glavine you not only ruined his season but you also prevented the Expos from going to the World series that year also. NBA Jordan and NFL Staubach,

I can see Dimaggio or Williams. I like Pete but he ain't top player ever or even close really.

[Commercecomet24]

Here's another one for you: Frank Robinson, one of the great 5 tool players of all time and one mean tough SOB. Some of the pansy players of today couldn't handle ol Frank.

[Martianlander]

I agree, however I place a big importance on Championships won as well as stats, to me that makes a GOAT and Babe outpaces Bonds big time in that area(and yeah I know it's a team sport but so are they all) and "you play to win the game". This is a great discussion and enjoyable thread.

I also place value on Championships and based on that you have to consider that Bill Russell may be the GOAT of all sports. Yeah I know his statistics don't match up but the guy made everybody around him better.

After Bill Russell retired and Kareem Abdul Jabbar came into the league:
Reporter to Russell: How do you think you would have done against Kareem?
Bill Russell: Young man, you have the question backwards.

[ShotgunDawg]

How are the stats "reasonably close". Only HRs & walks. Babe much greater in every other category. And he spent his 1st 5 years in the league as a pitcher. And his pitching stats are upper tier and he held consecutive scoreless innings pitched in WS record until 1960.

Bonds also stole bases & played CF for a significant portion of his career

[dawgday166]

And that's what I love about the game of baseball. No other sport like it. I think Babe and Bonds were both 2 immortals of the game.

Agree on the Mays/Mantle assessment. Mickey is a tough one. He had so much talent and so little regard for his body and life.

Mays/Mantle two of the greatest. Either one over Bonds IMO.

[Commercecomet24]

I also place value on Championships and based on that you have to consider that Bill Russell may be the GOAT of all sports. Yeah I know his statistics don't match up but the guy made everybody around him better.

After Bill Russell retired and Kareem Abdul Jabbar came into the league:
Reporter to Russell: How do you think you have done against Kareem?
Bill Russell: Young man, you have the questions backwards.

You know you're right, I completely forgot about Russell. The man absolutely dominated the NBA in his time. He wasn't as tall or big as Chamberlain but he kicked his butt everytime they squared off. He was a stud!

[dawgday166]

Bonds also stole bases & played CF for a significant portion of his career

Ok .. he has more steals than Babe then. 514 to 123.

[Commercecomet24]

Bonds also stole bases & played CF for a significant portion of his career

You're wrong about CF Gun. He only played 171 games in CF his entire career out of 2715 games played.

[ShotgunDawg]

Mays/Mantle two of the greatest. Either one over Bonds IMO.

How can you justify this opinion?

I think you just don't like Bonds because he was a jerk & likely did steroids.

I know people that know Bonds pretty well & they say that while he is a jerk, he is one of the most authentic, genuine humans they've ever met.

Here is an example that was given too me in comparing Alex Rodriguez to Bonds.

Say you break down on the freeway at 2:00 AM and you call Alex for help. Alex will answer the phone & tell you how bad he feels for you & then tell you he'll be there in 15 min to help. However, he'll never show up.

If you call Bonds at 2:00 AM, he'll answer the phone & say, "You're on your own bi*&^" and hang up.

Which person would you rather deal with?

I personally believe this same comparison could be made between Jordan & LeBron

[ShotgunDawg]

You're wrong about CF Gun. He only played 171 games in CF his entire career out of 2715 games played.

True. The fact that he was capable of it though says an awful lot.

[Tbonewannabe]

Bonds is better than the Babe

Steroid Barry Bonds is the GOAT. Non steroids Bonds is not as good as Griffey Jr.

Mickey Mantle is probably the greatest overall player if he is sober.

[dawgday166]

You're wrong about CF Gun. He only played 171 games in CF his entire career out of 2715 games played.

I thought so but wasn't positive. And he played the easiest defensive position on the field other than 1B.

[Commercecomet24]

What an awesome thread! I could discuss this for days. Good stuff.

[dawgday166]

How can you justify this opinion?

I think you just don't like Bonds because he was a jerk & likely did steroids.

I know people that know Bonds pretty well & they say that while he is a jerk, he is one of the most authentic, genuine humans they've ever met.

Here is an example that was given too me in comparing Alex Rodriguez to Bonds.

Say you break down on the freeway at 2:00 AM and you call Alex for help. Alex will answer the phone & tell you how bad he feels for you & then tell you he'll be there in 15 min to help. However, he'll never show up.

If you call Bonds at 2:00 AM, he'll answer the phone & say, "You're on your own bi*&^" and hang up.

Which person would you rather deal with?

I personally believe this same comparison could be made between Jordan & LeBron

I don't dislike Bonds so much but his late career explosion isn't authentic. And all folks do is look at HRs and walks.

[Commercecomet24]

Steroid Barry Bonds is the GOAT. Non steroids Bonds is not as good as Griffey Jr.

Mickey Mantle is probably the greatest overall player if he is sober.

I'm partial to Mickey myself(and I hate the yankees), the man just had a lot of demons. I met him a couple times and he just seemed like a good ol' country boy(of course he was sober when I met him and I understand when he was drunk his personality totally changed). I've got some pretty cool autographed stuff from him. The Mick is the definition of "what could've been".

[ShotgunDawg]

I don't dislike Bonds so much but his late career explosion isn't authentic. And all folks do is look at HRs and walks.

That's fine, but my issue is that you don't see to believe others did the exact same thing. The entire league was doing it.

[Commercecomet24]

That's fine, but my issue is that you don't see to believe others did the exact same thing. The entire league was doing it.

And that's what pisses me off. Bonds didn't need to do it but he did and it's tainted his career. The whole era people look at and wonder who did/who didn't. And it wasn't just hitters, pitchers were into as much as anyone.

[dawgday166]

That's fine, but my issue is that you don't see to believe others did the exact same thing. The entire league was doing it.

A) I don't believe entire league was doing it. There was a percentage tho and I wouldn't guess it to be higher than 20%. Probably not more than 10%.
B) Pretty sure the Babe didn't do roids. Beer & Women were his drugs.
C) You're vaulting Barry up there but "wanting" to believe the whole league was doing roids cause ... you just want it to be so. Barry probably would of had a late career of nagging injuries from '99 on and faded away if he hadn't roided up.

[ShotgunDawg]

A) I don't believe entire league was doing it. There was a percentage tho and I wouldn't guess it to be higher than 20%.


Well.... you're wrong. I know that to be a fact.

[ShotgunDawg]

And that's what pisses me off. Bonds didn't need to do it but he did and it's tainted his career. The whole era people look at and wonder who did/who didn't. And it wasn't just hitters, pitchers were into as much as anyone.

The facts that Jeff Bagwell is in the HOF & Bonds & Clemens aren't is an absolutely travesty & laughable

[Commercecomet24]

The facts that Jeff Bagwell is in the HOF & Bonds & Clemens aren't is an absolutely travesty & laughable

I will agree with you on that. Caminiti and Bagwell were big abusers. Cost Caminiti his life.

[dawgday166]

The facts that Jeff Bagwell is in the HOF & Bonds & Clemens aren't is an absolutely travesty & laughable

I agree.

[dawgday166]

Well.... you're wrong. I know that to be a fact.

So how do you "know" this?

[dawgday166]

I will agree with you on that. Caminiti and Bagwell were big abusers. Cost Caminiti his life.

Caminiti is who I was trying to think of and his explosive years. Really?? That's how much roids can help performance.

[ShotgunDawg]

So how do you "know" this?

Because I know people that would know

[dawgday166]

Because I know people that would know

ok ... but they don't know everyone in the league and besides that ... perceptions aren't always reality.

[JPdog]

NBA: Probably MJ. LeBron is a lot closer than most old timers want to admit, and most of the arguments given to MJ are flawed in one way or another, but I?ll still give him the benefit of the doubt.
NFL: Hard to really answer because of the nature of football and how different each position is. Probably gotta be a QB though, so I?ll go with Brady
MLB: Might take some heat for this, but I think it?s Mike Trout. Players are so much better today than they used to be. Pitchers routinely throwing 95+, which was unheard of not eve twenty years ago. Trout?s numbers are insane, and while it would be justified to say he hasn?t played long enough, if he stays healthy he will go down as the GOAT. Heck he could retire right now and make the Hall of Fame that?s how good he?s been

[Commercecomet24]

Caminiti is who I was trying to think of and his explosive years. Really?? That's how much roids can help performance.

Yeah read his story. It was a sad end to the mans life, tragic. I have deep sympathy for people with addictive personality, it's a horrible disease that affects so many.

Caminiti went from average to MVP almost overnight.

[Commercecomet24]

NBA: Probably MJ. LeBron is a lot closer than most old timers want to admit, and most of the arguments given to MJ are flawed in one way or another, but I?ll still give him the benefit of the doubt.
NFL: Hard to really answer because of the nature of football and how different each position is. Probably gotta be a QB though, so I?ll go with Brady
MLB: Might take some heat for this, but I think it?s Mike Trout. Players are so much better today than they used to be. Pitchers routinely throwing 95+, which was unheard of not eve twenty years ago. Trout?s numbers are insane, and while it would be justified to say he hasn?t played long enough, if he stays healthy he will go down as the GOAT. Heck he could retire right now and make the Hall of Fame that?s how good he?s been

Yeah I think Trout has serious potential to threaten that GOAT award. Love watching him play.

[dawgday166]

NBA: Probably MJ. LeBron is a lot closer than most old timers want to admit, and most of the arguments given to MJ are flawed in one way or another, but I?ll still give him the benefit of the doubt.
NFL: Hard to really answer because of the nature of football and how different each position is. Probably gotta be a QB though, so I?ll go with Brady
MLB: Might take some heat for this, but I think it?s Mike Trout. Players are so much better today than they used to be. Pitchers routinely throwing 95+, which was unheard of not eve twenty years ago. Trout?s numbers are insane, and while it would be justified to say he hasn?t played long enough, if he stays healthy he will go down as the GOAT. Heck he could retire right now and make the Hall of Fame that?s how good he?s been

Not sure how Trout's numbers are "off the chart". His best year in SLG and OPS isn't as good as Babe's lifetime. And while there probably weren't as many 95+ pitchers back then, there were a lot more balls doctored. Relievers also weren't used back than like they are now.

[Tbonewannabe]

Just from players that I have watched on TV.

Basketball : MJ - LeBron is great but MJ was also consistently one of the best defensive players in the league.

Football: I don't like Brady but the guy has the rings. His seasons in Tampa are going to define his legacy. Does he need Bill's coaching and team building to win?

Baseball: Bonds on roids is about as dominant a hitter that you will find but I give Trout the overall nod. Pitchers are better now along with his base stealing and defense is better than roided up Bonds.

[basedog]

This is a ridiculous comment. Secondly, how do you know Chipper didn?t Roids up?

You don?t think Ruth used amphetamines and went to the furthest extent to take advantage of legal rules during his day?

How do you know he just chased women and drank beer?

How do you know he didn?t throw 85 mph on the mound? Could Bonds have pitched in Ruth?s era?

Who is the best baseball player your EYES have ever seen?

I have read about Ruth and his life story. He was a big drinker and chased women a whole lot. He was a very interesting character and was a dominant pitcher in his early days. Btw, I'd put Lou Gehrig ahead of Bonds, to me and what I read about him he was close to Ruth in being the GOAT. Just saying

[Lord McBuckethead]

But how do you know Chipper didn?t use Roids?

If he did,he sucked at it.

[Lord McBuckethead]

I have read about Ruth and his life story. He was a big drinker and chased women a whole lot. He was a very interesting character and was a dominant pitcher in his early days. Btw, I'd put Lou Gehrig ahead of Bonds, to me and what I read about him he was close to Ruth in being the GOAT. Just saying

Bonds was the absolute best hitter this world has ever seen for like 3 consecutive seasons. He did it against far superior pitchers than anything the Babe ever batted against. I am not saying he is the best ever player to play the game, but it is not out of the realm of possibility that he could be better than Ruth. Ruth literally played for two of the best franchises in the history of sports, Boston and NYY.

If I had to call a single player as the best ever to suit up, I say Mickey Mantle in his prime prior to injuries. I never saw him play, but the dude from all indication was the real deal in every aspect. Imagine if the dude had physically prepared for baseball along with not doing crazy shit between games and the off season.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Also I would like to add, Babe's approach to the game changed baseball forever. No one consistently went for the long ball. He was like Wilt Chamberlain in how wilt changed the game of basketball forever.

[dawgday166]

Bonds was the absolute best hitter this world has ever seen for like 3 consecutive seasons. He did it against far superior pitchers than anything the Babe ever batted against. I am not saying he is the best ever player to play the game, but it is not out of the realm of possibility that he could be better than Ruth. Ruth literally played for two of the best franchises in the history of sports, Boston and NYY.

If I had to call a single player as the best ever to suit up, I say Mickey Mantle in his prime prior to injuries. I never saw him play, but the dude from all indication was the real deal in every aspect. Imagine if the dude had physically prepared for baseball along with not doing crazy shit between games and the off season.

Don't know if you noticed but Boston was a great franchise while Ruth was there and then went in a looonggg slump.

[basedog]

Don't know if you noticed but Boston was a great franchise while Ruth was there and then went in a looonggg slump.

The Curse you say**

[Homedawg]

THis entire thread and not a single mention of Ted Willaims? Maybe the greatest hitter ever??

[KOdawg1]

I think Trout will be up there in that discussion before it's all said and done. The only knock against him is that the Angels most always suck. If he starts winning championships, then I'll think he'll start to cement himself as one of, if not the GOAT.

[basedog]

THis entire thread and not a single mention of Ted Willaims? Maybe the greatest hitter ever??

Along with Ty Cobb.

[Percho]

Bonds is better than the Babe

Have you considering the Babe as a pitcher?

Posted before I read past your post.

[Commercecomet24]

THis entire thread and not a single mention of Ted Willaims? Maybe the greatest hitter ever??

Definitely the greatest hitter and a true American hero too. If he hadn't of lost so much time in military service his numbers would be staggering. He was a good defender with an average arm and average speed. Ol' Teddy Ballgame could sure rake though and knew more about hitting than anyone alive.

[ShotgunDawg]

Just from players that I have watched on TV.

Basketball : MJ - LeBron is great but MJ was also consistently one of the best defensive players in the league.

Football: I don't like Brady but the guy has the rings. His seasons in Tampa are going to define his legacy. Does he need Bill's coaching and team building to win?

Baseball: Bonds on roids is about as dominant a hitter that you will find but I give Trout the overall nod. Pitchers are better now along with his base stealing and defense is better than roided up Bonds.

Trout isn't near Bonds. He's really good but he's not that.

You can pitch to Trout. Not Bonds

[Percho]

How many books and movies will be made about or even that bring up Bonds name?

[ShotgunDawg]

If he did,he sucked at it.

Like Raffy?

[Homedawg]

Definitely the greatest hitter and a true American hero too. If he hadn't of lost so much time in military service his numbers would be staggering. He was a good defender with an average arm and average speed. Ol' Teddy Ballgame could sure rake though and knew more about hitting than anyone alive.

His career BA and hr totals are amazing, especially considering the lost time. Only, once since then has there been a really legit chance for someone to hit 400 and that was Brett in 80.

[parabrave]

I'm partial to Mickey myself(and I hate the yankees), the man just had a lot of demons. I met him a couple times and he just seemed like a good ol' country boy(of course he was sober when I met him and I understand when he was drunk his personality totally changed). I've got some pretty cool autographed stuff from him. The Mick is the definition of "what could've been".

According to Sonny, the Mick wouldn't pay your rent if you needed him to.***

Taken from the Movie "A Bronx Tale"

[Commercecomet24]

His career BA and hr totals are amazing, especially considering the lost time. Only, once since then has there been a really legit chance for someone to hit 400 and that was Brett in 80.

Lost 5 prime years to military service and he didn't take the easy assignment he could have. He applied for V-5 to become a fighter pilot and served in WWII and Korean war. Projected stats if he didn't lose those 5 years:

Williams would have hit .342 with 3,452 hits, 663 home runs and 2,380 RBI. Those numbers would have lifted him from 69th to sixth in career hits; from 18th to fourth in home runs; and from 13th to first in runs batted in.

[Commercecomet24]

According to Sonny, the Mick wouldn't pay your rent if you needed him to.***

Taken from the Movie "A Bronx Tale"

Love that movie!

[parabrave]

Lost 5 prime years to military service and he didn't take the easy assignment he could have. He applied for V-5 to become a fighter pilot and served in WWII and Korean war. Projected stats if he didn't lose those 5 years:

Williams would have hit .342 with 3,452 hits, 663 home runs and 2,380 RBI. Those numbers would have lifted him from 69th to sixth in career hits; from 18th to fourth in home runs; and from 13th to first in runs batted in.

That's a Marine combat fighter pilot. Thought I'd correct before TUSK and Jack jumped into your 4th point of contact.

[Commercecomet24]

That's a Marine combat fighter pilot. Thought I'd correct before TUSK and Jack jumped into your 4th point of contact.

That's correct. American Hero, Baseball Hero.

[NCDawg]

An argument could also be made that based on just sheer talent that Mays and Mantle were Bonds equivalent.

I agree about Mantle. He was a tremendous talent. Even with all his injuries, being taped up, etc., he could still run to 1st base in 3.1 seconds. I don't think it was any baseball players better than he was-just my opinion.

[parabrave]

I still wonder 2 things about Jr. 1. How many HRs would've he have hit in 94 and how many would he have hit if he didn't get hurt and also stayed in Seattle?

[NCDawg]

Definitely the greatest hitter and a true American hero too. If he hadn't of lost so much time in military service his numbers would be staggering. He was a good defender with an average arm and average speed. Ol' Teddy Ballgame could sure rake though and knew more about hitting than anyone alive.

I recall opposing teams would do the "Ted Williams shift" against him. It didn't faze Williams, though. He would still get base hits.

[Commercecomet24]

I agree about Mantle. He was a tremendous talent. Even with all his injuries, being taped up, etc., he could still run to 1st base in 3.1 seconds. I don't think it was any baseball players better than he was-just my opinion.

He was an amazing athlete. Recruited by OU to play football, he may well have been the best HS football player in the country as well as baseball. He could literally do everything, accept take care of his body. He was so freaking fast, Commerce Comet lol!

[shoeless joe]

His career BA and hr totals are amazing, especially considering the lost time. Only, once since then has there been a really legit chance for someone to hit 400 and that was Brett in 80.

I still remember someone doing an interview with bonds at an all star game...Seattle maybe. They asked him who was a better hitter between himself and Williamss, bonds had recently eclipsed ted’s 521 career mark, bonds response, “I’ve hit more homers so I’d say I’m better”.

Williams was cheated of stats due to his actual combat service...bonds cheated the game. He was a HOF before cheating but that comment itself shows what he was about.

[shoeless joe]

Here’s what I think about the bonds/Ruth debate...

Babe hit 60 when nobody else was hitting 20. Bonds hit 70+ when everybody else was hitting 40-50.

One thing bonds did do was capitalize on pitches to hit. But as an all around player he was NOT as good as mantle, Mays, and Aaron. And prolly not as good as Clemente, Robinson, DiMaggio. But he could get one pitch and hit it a long way...of course one thing roids do is help hit it a long way.

[dawgday166]

THis entire thread and not a single mention of Ted Willaims? Maybe the greatest hitter ever??

There was a brief mention of him and replied he could be in the argument maybe too.

[dawgday166]

Like Raffy?

Raffy used them. Are you saying Chipper did too? Cause I ain't aware of that one.

[Commercecomet24]

Here’s what I think about the bonds/Ruth debate...

Babe hit 60 when nobody else was hitting 20. Bonds hit 70+ when everybody else was hitting 40-50.

One thing bonds did do was capitalize on pitches to hit. But as an all around player he was NOT as good as mantle, Mays, and Aaron. And prolly not as good as Clemente, Robinson, DiMaggio. But he could get one pitch and hit it a long way...of course one thing roids do is help hit it a long way.

Babe also hit more home runs in a season than any other TEAM..twice! He changed the game, Bonds didn't.

[dawgday166]

His career BA and hr totals are amazing, especially considering the lost time. Only, once since then has there been a really legit chance for someone to hit 400 and that was Brett in 80.

Gwynn (94 & 97) and Carew (77).

[dawgday166]

Here’s what I think about the bonds/Ruth debate...

Babe hit 60 when nobody else was hitting 20. Bonds hit 70+ when everybody else was hitting 40-50.

One thing bonds did do was capitalize on pitches to hit. But as an all around player he was NOT as good as mantle, Mays, and Aaron. And prolly not as good as Clemente, Robinson, DiMaggio. But he could get one pitch and hit it a long way...of course one thing roids do is help hit it a long way.

Wouldn't argue with any of this here.

Roids will help increase bat speed.

[Commercecomet24]

Gwynn (94 & 97) and Carew (77).

I loved watching Rod Carew hit, dude was a maestro with a bat. He didn't have much pop but he could smoke ropes all over the park and was maybe the best bunter of all time. He could put so much backspin on a bunt, 3B or 1B would almost run into the catcher trying to chase em down.Stole home 17 times in his career, 7 times in one season.

[dawgday166]

I loved watching Rod Carew hit, dude was a maestro with a bat. He didn't have much pop but he could smoke ropes all over the park and was maybe the best bunter of all time. He could put so much backspin on a bunt, 3B or 1B would almost run into the catcher trying to chase em down.Stole home 17 times in his career, 7 times in one season.

Yea he was. Gwynn & Carew better, more consistent hitters than Brett.

[Matt3467]

If we're talking HR hitters and ignoring those that cheated then you have to have McGwire in the discussion. McGwire average more homeruns per at-bat than any other player in history.

Bonds was a great player before the roids. He hit for average and would hit 30-40 homeruns a year. Steroids don't give you talent but they do amplify it and Bonds is a cheater that I don't believe deserves to be in the HOF and above those like Babe, Mays, Aaron, etc on the Home Run list. I'm not saying he wasn't good. He was great and on his way to being a surefire HOF player before the roids.

Some of my favorite players are roid users like Sosa, McGwire, Canseco, Bonds, Clemens, Boone, Gonzalez, Bagwell, Rodriguez (Alex and Ivan), but I would also say those players earned themselves an asterisk next to their stats forever.

I read something about Babes career a while back and something that others haven't mentioned here is that the baseballs were made different back then. I'd have to look it up to get specifics but prior to 1920 the balls were much harder to be hit for homeruns and after the 1920 change to baseballs a significant jump to homeruns occurred. By 1925 the homerun rate for the league doubled!

My vote for all time great is Ruth. Along with his stats his Legend is almost mythical in baseball.

My personal favorite player of all time would be Andres Galarraga. One of the most underrated players ever in my opinion. Great bat and glove. His numbers would've been plenty better had he not had to battle cancer in his prime.

Edit: Meant to add that Babe also averaged more homeruns per at-bat than Bonds.

[Commercecomet24]

If we're talking HR hitters and ignoring those that cheated then you have to have McGwire in the discussion. McGwire average more homeruns per at-bat than any other player in history.

Bonds was a great player before the roids. He hit for average and would hit 30-40 homeruns a year. Steroids don't give you talent but they do amplify it and Bonds is a cheater that I don't believe deserves to be in the HOF and above those like Babe, Mays, Aaron, etc on the Home Run list. I'm not saying he wasn't good. He was great and on his way to being a surefire HOF player before the roids.

Some of my favorite players are roid users like Sosa, McGwire, Canseco, Bonds, Clemens, Boone, Gonzalez, Bagwell, Rodriguez (Alex and Ivan), but I would also say those players earned themselves an asterisk next to their stats forever.

I read something about Babes career a while back and something that others haven't mentioned here is that the baseballs were made different back then. I'd have to look it up to get specifics but prior to 1920 the balls were much harder to be hit for homeruns and after the 1920 change to baseballs a significant jump to homeruns occurred. By 1925 the homerun rate for the league doubled!

My vote for all time great is Ruth. Along with his stats his Legend is almost mythical in baseball.

My personal favorite player of all time would be Andres Galarraga. One of the most underrated players ever in my opinion. Great bat and glove. His numbers would've been plenty better had he not had to battle cancer in his prime.

Edit: Meant to add that Babe also averaged more homeruns per at-bat than Bonds.

Yeah in the early days of baseball they were basically using a "rag ball". That's why pitchers back then could pitch in so many games cause they threw very few pitches cause just about everything was an out lol. Dead Ball Era, babe changed that thought and the HR become in vogue. Chicks even dug the long ball back then!

[Commercecomet24]

Yeah in the early days of baseball they were basically using a "rag ball". That's why pitchers back then could pitch in so many games cause they threw very few pitches cause just about everything was an out lol. Dead Ball Era, babe changed that thought and the HR become in vogue. Chicks even dug the long ball back then!

ETA that's also what made Babes HR even more epic he was hitting a dead ball for parts of his career.

[Johnson85]

How do you know? Did you see Ruth play?

If not, then you?re just going off what someone told you rather than your own opinion

Ruth was the best of his era but it takes about 5 seconds of comparing the two on YouTube videos to realize that Barry was way way way more talented.

Production was basically a wash

Hard to adjust for the fact that Bonds got to put a big ass pad on his arm and take a way a good chunk of the plate without consequences. Some of the other greats would have gotten a ball or two in their ear hole if they tried to pull shit like that.

[ShotgunDawg]

Raffy used them. Are you saying Chipper did too? Cause I ain't aware of that one.

I'm saying we don't know who all used them but many many did in that era

[ShotgunDawg]

Hard to adjust for the fact that Bonds got to put a big ass pad on his arm and take a way a good chunk of the plate without consequences. Some of the other greats would have gotten a ball or two in their ear hole if they tried to pull shit like that.

Well, many players do these days and none of them are Bonds

[Todd4State]

My GOATs are:

Ruth for baseball. The man changed the game. He showed people that chicks dug the longball. When you outhomer entire teams- that would be like someone hitting 100 home runs today. The rules were different too- a ball hitting a foul pole was a foul ball then. Also the parks were bigger. Ruth was also an elite pitcher too.

Jerry Rice for football. The man annihilated receiving records and I think those 49ers teams really changed the way football was and is played forever. And he played when it was a less pass happy league.

Michael Jordan for basketball. Again he changed the way the game is played forever and I think he started making basketball into a game more about individuals for better or worse.

[Todd4State]

I'm saying we don't know who all used them but many many did in that era

The thing about steroids is just because you take them it doesn't turn you into a 60 home run guy overnight. If the media had ever actually played sports even at the rec level before they would understand that. Heck if you told me to take a shot and it would turn me into Babe Ruth skill wise everyone that dreams of playing baseball would do it. And as far as cheating a lot of people forget it wasn't illegal in baseball in the 90's.

[Todd4State]

I loved watching Rod Carew hit, dude was a maestro with a bat. He didn't have much pop but he could smoke ropes all over the park and was maybe the best bunter of all time. He could put so much backspin on a bunt, 3B or 1B would almost run into the catcher trying to chase em down.Stole home 17 times in his career, 7 times in one season.

Carew allegedly could bunt a ball and have it land onto a handkerchief on the infield wherever the coaches put it. That's remarkable. Ichiro in his prime was really good too.

[shoeless joe]

The thing about steroids is just because you take them it doesn't turn you into a 60 home run guy overnight. If the media had ever actually played sports even at the rec level before they would understand that. Heck if you told me to take a shot and it would turn me into Babe Ruth skill wise everyone that dreams of playing baseball would do it. And as far as cheating a lot of people forget it wasn't illegal in baseball in the 90's.

It doesn’t improve hand/eye but definitely increases power production. It also allows for quicker recovery time and prevents missing time due to nagging injuries. For pitchers it made short rest less of a deal. Ask the Braves if Clemens being able to throw 5 shutout innings in game 4 of the LDS on 1 day rest if roids made a difference.

[Commercecomet24]

It doesn’t improve hand/eye but definitely increases power production. It also allows for quicker recovery time and prevents missing time due to nagging injuries. For pitchers it made short rest less of a deal. Ask the Braves if Clemens being able to throw 5 shutout innings in game 4 of the LDS on 1 day rest if roids made a difference.

I believe the faster recovery time steroids allowed made more of a difference than anything in baseball because the season is a huge grind and allowing players to avoid those nagging little things.

[dawgday166]

I'm saying we don't know who all used them but many many did in that era

Don't think Chipper did cause he never hit the monster shots and he also had a lot of naggin injuries later in his career too.

[dawgday166]

If we're talking HR hitters and ignoring those that cheated then you have to have McGwire in the discussion. McGwire average more homeruns per at-bat than any other player in history.



McGwire used roids too. Maybe not early in his career but when he broke HR record he was using them.

[Commercecomet24]

Don't think Chipper did cause he never hit the monster shots and he also had a lot of naggin injuries later in his career too.

Yeah he started breaking down about the age the pre steroid era guys used to break down.

[ShotgunDawg]

Don't think Chipper did cause he never hit the monster shots and he also had a lot of naggin injuries later in his career too.

I would say your opinion is biased and lack any real evidence. I wouldn’t have told you Raffy did them either

[ShotgunDawg]

Yeah he started breaking down about the age the pre steroid era guys used to break down.

This just isn’t solid reasoning. No evidence here.

[dawgday166]

I would say your opinion is biased and lack any real evidence. I wouldn?t have told you Raffy did them either

And I'm sure your's is steeped in hard facts, data, and Einstein level of knowledge ******

BTW ... I could tell Raffy was doing them later in his career when he was doing them.

[Matt3467]

McGwire used roids too. Maybe not early in his career but when he broke HR record he was using them.

Yea that was point. It was obvious he was on something. When McGwire came into the league he was a skinny guy much like Bonds but it was easy to tell once they were on them. They were built like tanks.

[Commercecomet24]

This just isn?t solid reasoning. No evidence here.

And wheres your evidence he did?

Mines as solid as yours lol!

[dawgday166]

And wheres your evidence he did?

Mines as solid as yours lol!

Do you not recognize brilliance and superior intellect when it's on display *****

[Commercecomet24]

Do you not recognize brilliance and superior intellect when it's on display *****

I guess not lol!

[Matt3467]

Don't think Chipper did cause he never hit the monster shots and he also had a lot of naggin injuries later in his career too.


Yeah he started breaking down about the age the pre steroid era guys used to break down.

I don't believe he did either. Chipper was just a great talent. He was also consistent during his prime playing years.

A good example of what steroids can do for a player is looking a Javy Lopez's '03 year and comparing it to the rest of his career. The only other time he hit more than 30 homeruns was in '98 and even then his other number didn't come close to his '03 year at 32 years old. Also, not proven, but I believe Brady Anderson was using them during his '96 season when he hit 50 homeruns. Anderson never hit more than 24 homeruns any other time during his career.

[basedog]

Btw, if I was choosing a QB, I could go with Joe Montana and so between he a Brady a push. But my favorite QB growing up as a kid was Johnny Unitas. Master mind he had especially calling his own plays. Just saying.

But go watch Jim Brown, he was a beast, like someone described him back in his day, "If he revealed what under his shoulder pads you would see a big S and realize he was the real Superman"!

Now just to change the subject, but from what I've read about Jim Thorpe he may have been the GOAT for being an athletic. Dude was great in everything he did, baseball, football and track!

[ShotgunDawg]

Btw, if I was choosing a QB, I could go with Joe Montana and so between he a Brady a push. But my favorite QB growing up as a kid was Johnny Unitas. Master mind he had especially calling his own plays. Just saying.

But go watch Jim Brown, he was a beast, like someone described him back in his day, "If he revealed what under his shoulder pads you would see a big S and realize he was the real Superman"!

Now just to change the subject, but from what I've read about Jim Thorpe he may have been the GOAT for being an athletic. Dude was great in everything he did, baseball, football and track!

How are Brady & Montana a push?

[Political Hack]

How do you know? Did you see Ruth play?

If not, then you?re just going off what someone told you rather than your own opinion



How did Bonds compare when you saw Ruth play?

[dawgday166]

Btw, if I was choosing a QB, I could go with Joe Montana and so between he a Brady a push. But my favorite QB growing up as a kid was Johnny Unitas. Master mind he had especially calling his own plays. Just saying.

But go watch Jim Brown, he was a beast, like someone described him back in his day, "If he revealed what under his shoulder pads you would see a big S and realize he was the real Superman"!

Now just to change the subject, but from what I've read about Jim Thorpe he may have been the GOAT for being an athletic. Dude was great in everything he did, baseball, football and track!

Agree with all this and personally would choose Montana over Brady.

[ShotgunDawg]

How did Bonds compare when you saw Ruth play?

You tell me which one looks like the better player


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsVn9k7nMKk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6H1LKSzdP0&t=1s

[ShotgunDawg]

Agree with all this and personally would choose Montana over Brady.

Huh? Please explain...

[Commercecomet24]

How did Bonds compare when you saw Ruth play?

Dang Hack!

Rep Given!

[KOdawg1]

This just isn’t solid reasoning. No evidence here.
Lol what? Chipper Jones didn't use steroids. You can't prove that he did just like I can't prove that he didn't. But I can look at the trajectory of his health and production, and Chipper started breaking down
during the same years Bonds and other steroid users kept rolling.

You're on this hill, and you're literally the only one.

[KOdawg1]

And wheres your evidence he did?

Mines as solid as yours lol!

He knows a guy who knows a guy who knows for a fact Chipper was juicing *

[dawgday166]

Huh? Please explain...

Joe's my guy. I can't argue with Brady as GOAT tho (if that miraculous SB comeback is legit). I can step back and take my Barry Bonds glasses off *

[ShotgunDawg]

Lol what? Chipper Jones didn't use steroids.

I'm not saying he did or he didn't. That information is not known. Realize that YOU DO NOT KNOW

I just find it hilarious that Bonds & Clemens have been crucified when a good portion of the league was doing the exact same thing but face no consequences.

Jeff Bagwell is an obvious steroid user yet waltzes into the HOF & Raffy didn't look like a steroid user at all.

My point being, we don't know. We simply don't know yet two of the best players of all time are singled out

[smootness]

Most accomplished football player? Brady
Best football player? Jerry Rice

Most accomplished baseball player? Ruth and Bonds
Best baseball player? Bonds, but if you remove him for roids, then Ruth or Ted Williams

Most accomplished basketball player? A bunch - Abdul-Jabbar, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Magic
Best basketball player? Jordan

[basedog]

How are Brady & Montana a push?

To me they are equal in talent, difference is Brady played for one Coach which is huge, Joe played under 3 I think but was considered great in his day. Brady has had an awesome career and not being injured much is amazing.

[ShotgunDawg]

Most accomplished football player? Brady
Best football player? Jerry Rice

Most accomplished baseball player? Ruth and Bonds
Best baseball player? Bonds, but if you remove him for roids, then Ruth or Ted Williams

Most accomplished basketball player? A bunch - Abdul-Jabbar, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Magic
Best basketball player? Jordan

I can dig this.

Good way of splitting them up to make more sense

[ShotgunDawg]

To me they are equal in talent, difference is Brady played for one Coach which is huge, Joe played under 3 I think but was considered great in his day. Brady has had an awesome career and not being injured much is amazing.

One has 6 Super Bowls & the other has 4.

One had the best WR of all time for the duration of his career & one has had semi-garbage at WR for the better half of his career

[smootness]

How do you know? Did you see Ruth play?

If not, then you?re just going off what someone told you rather than your own opinion

Ruth was the best of his era but it takes about 5 seconds of comparing the two on YouTube videos to realize that Barry was way way way more talented.

Production was basically a wash

This is where people get unnecessarily stuck when talking about this.

You can't compare athletes currently to athletes 100 years ago. If Bonds were around in 1920, or if Ruth were around today, that difference would be mostly eliminated. LOL if you think Ruth wasn't absurdly athletic and talented. We see a guy with some fat on him who didn't run real fast when trotting around the bases, but the guy was an elite pitcher and then the greatest hitter of all-time and completely changed the game single-handedly. He didn't do that because he was big, or because he swung a big bat.

He did that because he was a phenomenal athlete, had fantastic hand-eye coordination, pitch recognition, fluidity, etc. He was an amazing athlete.

You have to compare athletes to the era in which they played. Before roids, Ruth was better compared to his era. Once he was roided out, Bonds was roughly equal to Ruth, at best. Therefore, I'm saying Ruth had the better career.

[dawgday166]

To me they are equal in talent, difference is Brady played for one Coach which is huge, Joe played under 3 I think but was considered great in his day. Brady has had an awesome career and not being injured much is amazing.

Minor correction ... Joe can do everything Brady can do but he could also run. However, he could also find his 4th or 5th option that's why he didn't run as much as Stevie boy did following him.

[Commercecomet24]

Lol what? Chipper Jones didn't use steroids. You can't prove that he did just like I can't prove that he didn't. But I can look at the trajectory of his health and production, and Chipper started breaking down
during the same years Bonds and other steroid users kept rolling.

You're on this hill, and you're literally the only one.

He likes being on that hill alone lol

[basedog]

One has 6 Super Bowls & the other has 4.

One had the best WR of all time for the duration of his career & one has had semi-garbage at WR for the better half of his career

I wouldn't call receivers at New England garbage, need to check again.

[basedog]

Minor correction ... Joe can do everything Brady can do but he could also run. However, he could also find his 4th or 5th option that's why he didn't run as much as Stevie boy did following him.

Yes, Joe was very smart and it showed with how he could read defenses. I'd be happy with either is my point.

[dawgday166]

One has 6 Super Bowls & the other has 4.

One had the best WR of all time for the duration of his career & one has had semi-garbage at WR for the better half of his career

Won't argue with most of that but he only had Rice for 5 of his playing years.

ETA: Gun ... I enjoy giving you a hard time cause you make it so easy haha.

[Todd4State]

Joe Montana to me is the better player and quarterback. Tom Brady has had the better career. Or accomplished as Smootness said.

It's like Ruth and Bonds. You have to take the era that they played in to account. If Montana plays in this era where he could play into his 40's I think he would have numbers similar or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, etc. (Note when all of the last four played)

I think Montana is different as a QB than Brady. Brady is a classic drop back passer. Montana really excelled on the run- and that's what I like about him and the difference to me and why I pick him. Montana was a threat to run and he was also deadly as a passer on the run. Look at his signature play- the Catch. Montana changed the game as a QB in a way similar to Ruth. He was one of the first more dual threat-ish QB's in an era where guys like Terry Bradshaw was the template. The 49ers offensive scheme and how they used their personnel was a major change in football that changed the game forever.

Also- if I need to make a comeback or have to pick one guy to win a Super Bowl- I'm picking Montana all day. He didn't win as many as Brady- but when he did play he was basically perfect. Joe Montana changed what NFL coaches were looking for in QB's. I don't think Brady changed the game like that. What's the difference between Brady, Manning, and Brees skill set wise?

[Todd4State]

One has 6 Super Bowls & the other has 4.

One had the best WR of all time for the duration of his career & one has had semi-garbage at WR for the better half of his career

Randy Moss and Gronk are garbage? Brady probably has the best TE/H-Back in NFL history to throw to. What happened to Brady last year after Gronk retired?

Montana's first two Super Bowl were with Dwight Clark, Freddie Soloman, and Renaldo Nehemiah as his WR's. In 1984 the 49ers top receiver was a running back when they won the Super Bowl.

[Todd4State]

This is where people get unnecessarily stuck when talking about this.

You can't compare athletes currently to athletes 100 years ago. If Bonds were around in 1920, or if Ruth were around today, that difference would be mostly eliminated. LOL if you think Ruth wasn't absurdly athletic and talented. We see a guy with some fat on him who didn't run real fast when trotting around the bases, but the guy was an elite pitcher and then the greatest hitter of all-time and completely changed the game single-handedly. He didn't do that because he was big, or because he swung a big bat.

He did that because he was a phenomenal athlete, had fantastic hand-eye coordination, pitch recognition, fluidity, etc. He was an amazing athlete.

You have to compare athletes to the era in which they played. Before roids, Ruth was better compared to his era. Once he was roided out, Bonds was roughly equal to Ruth, at best. Therefore, I'm saying Ruth had the better career.

Exactly. If Ruth played in the 1990's he would have looked like Mark McGwire and been on roids. McGwire may have looked like Ruth if he played in the 20's.

[Commercecomet24]

Exactly. If Ruth played in the 1990's he would have looked like Mark McGwire and been on roids. McGwire may have looked like Ruth if he played in the 20's.

I look like Ruth right now does that count for anything lol!

[Todd4State]

Yes, Joe was very smart and it showed with how he could read defenses. I'd be happy with either is my point.

The thing I can't get over was how calm he was AT ALL TIMES. His poise and confidence were off the charts.

In addition to what you just said. How many people are looking for celebrities in the crowd before the game winning drive of a Super Bowl when you are down in the last minutes? Oh hey- look! Is that John Candy. Cool!

[Todd4State]

I look like Ruth right now does that count for anything lol!

Yeah! If you can hit a baseball 500 feet.

[Todd4State]

I'm not saying he did or he didn't. That information is not known. Realize that YOU DO NOT KNOW

I just find it hilarious that Bonds & Clemens have been crucified when a good portion of the league was doing the exact same thing but face no consequences.

Jeff Bagwell is an obvious steroid user yet waltzes into the HOF & Raffy didn't look like a steroid user at all.

My point being, we don't know. We simply don't know yet two of the best players of all time are singled out

I honestly think a lot of players didn't know they were taking steroids sometimes. I'm sure they were just doing what their personal trainer was telling them to do in some cases and just thought it was a supplement or something.

[Commercecomet24]

Randy Moss and Gronk are garbage? Brady probably has the best TE/H-Back in NFL history to throw to. What happened to Brady last year after Gronk retired?

Montana's first two Super Bowl were with Dwight Clark, Freddie Soloman, and Renaldo Nehemiah as his WR's. In 1984 the 49ers top receiver was a running back when they won the Super Bowl.

I like both Brady and Joe, 1A and 1B to me. In fairness to Brady he won his first 3 Super Bowls with midgets at wr. Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Patten etc and not much in explosive rbs either. Both are legends .

[Commercecomet24]

Yeah! If you can hit a baseball 500 feet.

Sorry man but nope lol. Since I had my eye surgery though I can see that far now


ETA I can throw 2 hours of bp every single day though!

[Todd4State]

I like both Brady and Joe, 1A and 1B to me. In fairness to Brady he won his first 3 Super Bowls with midgets at wr. Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Patten etc and not much in explosive rbs either. Both are legends .

There are a lot of parallels between the two for sure because that's similar to how Montana's first two Super Bowls were. It's kind of odd. Brady was in the stands as a 4 year old when Montana and the 49ers beat the Cowboys in The Catch game. I enjoy watching both play. And then Montana gets Rice and Brady gets Gronk and then they launch a second half of their career mini-dynasty.

[Todd4State]

Sorry man but nope lol. Since I had my eye surgery though I can see that far now


ETA I can throw 2 hours of bp every single day though!

I'd probably end up with Tommy John if I threw BP that much.

[Matt3467]

“Some 20 years ago, I stopped talking about the Babe for the simple reason that I realized that those who had never seen him didn't believe me.”
- Tommy Holmes (sportswriter)

“No one hit home runs the way Babe did. They were something special. They were like homing pigeons. The ball would leave the bat, pause briefly, suddenly gain its bearings then take off for the stands.”
- Lefty Gomez (teammate)

“To understand him (Babe) you had to understand this: he wasn't human.”
- Joe Dugan (teammate)

“If I'd tried for them dinky singles I could've batted around six hundred.”
- Babe Ruth

[Todd4State]

The Montana/Brady, Ruth/Bonds thing is sort of like Jim Brown and guys like Emmitt Smith.

I'm pretty sure as a player Brown was better. But by his choice he didn't play for a long time even though he could have. Smith has the better numbers. As does Walter Payton who I believe was also better than Smith too.

And I'll say Sandy Koufax had the best stuff I have ever seen on film. But he only had a six year peak and retired at 30.

[Matt3467]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ArDKjEr_EE

I mentioned in an earlier post Galarraga was my personal favorite player ever. Here's a video of him in the Florida Marlins stadium hitting arguably the furthest homerun ever. MLB initially ruled it was 585ft but later changed it to less than Mantle's 565ft homerun. Personally I believe the change was made to keep Mantle in the record books but who knows. All I know is watching that video it's easy to tell it's one of the furthest homeruns ever hit.

Edit: https://www.mlb.com/cut4/andres-galarraga-tape-measure-homer-in-miami-c281243076 It was estimated initially at 579ft.

[parabrave]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ArDKjEr_EE

I mentioned in an earlier post Galarraga was my personal favorite player ever. Here's a video of him in the Florida Marlins stadium hitting arguably the furthest homerun ever. MLB initially ruled it was 585ft but later changed it to less than Mantle's 565ft homerun. Personally I believe the change was made to keep Mantle in the record books but who knows. All I know is watching that video it's easy to tell it's one of the furthest homeruns ever hit.

Edit: https://www.mlb.com/cut4/andres-galarraga-tape-measure-homer-in-miami-c281243076 It was estimated initially at 579ft.

Man I loved the Big Cat. I wished he stuck with managing a little longer i thought he would make a dam good manager.

[Commercecomet24]

I'd probably end up with Tommy John if I threw BP that much.

With hs ball getting shutdown I've been having to do it to keep him sharp. I hope when he goes off to college this fall the coaches will be taking that off me lol. These pitchers are pansys now, heck I'm throwing 200 pitches a day everyday lol!!!

[Commercecomet24]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ArDKjEr_EE

I mentioned in an earlier post Galarraga was my personal favorite player ever. Here's a video of him in the Florida Marlins stadium hitting arguably the furthest homerun ever. MLB initially ruled it was 585ft but later changed it to less than Mantle's 565ft homerun. Personally I believe the change was made to keep Mantle in the record books but who knows. All I know is watching that video it's easy to tell it's one of the furthest homeruns ever hit.

Edit: https://www.mlb.com/cut4/andres-galarraga-tape-measure-homer-in-miami-c281243076 It was estimated initially at 579ft.

I remember when he was with the Braves and going through his cancer treatments my little boy would pray for him every night.

[tcdog70]

Bonds is better than the Babe

Remind me how many games Bonds won pitching? And Babe hit his bombs in the dead ball era without diluted pitching and he wasn't on drugs.

[tcdog70]

ETA that's also what made Babes HR even more epic he was hitting a dead ball for parts of his career.

Also, the mound was higher and only 8 AL teams, so pitching wasn't diluted. Plus the Babe was a hell of a pitcher.

[tcdog70]

Along with Ty Cobb.

To Me it was Willie Mays--the best 5 tool player ever. Who played most of his games in Candlestick Park in the cold where the wind always blew in.

[Commercecomet24]

Also, the mound was higher and only 8 AL teams, so pitching wasn't diluted. Plus the Babe was a hell of a pitcher.

Truth!

[shoeless joe]

Sorry man but nope lol. Since I had my eye surgery though I can see that far now


ETA I can throw 2 hours of bp every single day though!

That is a great skill in itself! I used to throw a couple hours of BP then about 12 innings worth of 6 outs...the last 4 innings with a dead arm...after which I couldn?t even wipe my ass without chewing on aleve!!!

BTW pm sent regarding your boy

[Tbonewannabe]

Trout isn't near Bonds. He's really good but he's not that.

You can pitch to Trout. Not Bonds

Bonds was only like that for about 3 years extremely roided up. Most of his career was not as good as Trout. I would put Griffey Jr ahead of non roided Bonds. Bonds also lost what made him one of the best all around players in baseball by gaining all the weight. He was one of the few to chase the 40-40 club on a consistent basis.

[Tbonewannabe]

Wouldn't argue with any of this here.

Roids will help increase bat speed.

Which would also help batting average.

[Tbonewannabe]

One has 6 Super Bowls & the other has 4.

One had the best WR of all time for the duration of his career & one has had semi-garbage at WR for the better half of his career

We will see how well Brady does at Tampa. Montana went to KC and made them good.

[Tbonewannabe]

Won't argue with most of that but he only had Rice for 5 of his playing years.

ETA: Gun ... I enjoy giving you a hard time cause you make it so easy haha.

Brady also had Gronk who is maybe the hardest receiver to cover in the last 20 years and had a good to great Randy Moss.

[Commercecomet24]

That is a great skill in itself! I used to throw a couple hours of BP then about 12 innings worth of 6 outs...the last 4 innings with a dead arm...after which I couldn?t even wipe my ass without chewing on aleve!!!

BTW pm sent regarding your boy

Oh I have to chew Aleve and heat and ice it but I get right back out there lol.

[Todd4State]

Brady also had Gronk who is maybe the hardest receiver to cover in the last 20 years and had a good to great Randy Moss.

And he had Wes Welker who is maybe the greatest slot receiver of all time.

[basedog]

Oh I have to chew Aleve and heat and ice it but I get right back out there lol.

Since you Coached Travel Ball, what is your take with kids and development as players with Travel Coaches, Coll?ge Coaches and individual trainers? I'm hearing now College Coaches aren't so much in developing are training kids as much as Travel Coaches and of course Professional Baseball. Oh I'm sure their many good college coaches, just curious your take?

Btw, I love the story about you pitching, when I was Coaching many times I would "demonstrate fundamentals of basketball". I use to travel all over the country during the summer and Coach at camps. One thing I learned a long time ago from some coaches, never demonstrate are teach a skill unless it's a proper form.

[smootness]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ArDKjEr_EE

I mentioned in an earlier post Galarraga was my personal favorite player ever. Here's a video of him in the Florida Marlins stadium hitting arguably the furthest homerun ever. MLB initially ruled it was 585ft but later changed it to less than Mantle's 565ft homerun. Personally I believe the change was made to keep Mantle in the record books but who knows. All I know is watching that video it's easy to tell it's one of the furthest homeruns ever hit.

Edit: https://www.mlb.com/cut4/andres-galarraga-tape-measure-homer-in-miami-c281243076 It was estimated initially at 579ft.

529 is almost certainly more accurate for that HR. What is true, though, is that Mantle's likely didn't go 565. It is almost impossible for a person to hit a ball that far.

[Commercecomet24]

Since you Coached Travel Ball, what is your take with kids and development as players with Travel Coaches, Coll?ge Coaches and individual trainers? I'm hearing now College Coaches aren't so much in developing are training kids as much as Travel Coaches and of course Professional Baseball. Oh I'm sure their many good college coaches, just curious your take?

Btw, I love the story about you pitching, when I was Coaching many times I would "demonstrate fundamentals of basketball". I use to travel all over the country during the summer and Coach at camps. One thing I learned a long time ago from some coaches, never demonstrate are teach a skill unless it's a proper form.

Good question. Travel ball has become more and more about developing players. In the early days a lot of it was just daddys wanting to put a team together so their kid could play SS, Pitch and bat 4th lol, but that's changed over the years. There's a lot of really good coaches in travel ball now(still a few idiots) but it's a whole lot better.

I think thats becoming more and more the case. Heck even at the HS level coaches are becoming more dependent on travel ball for development of their players. Half the kids on the West Jones State Championship team from last year were my players, Hattiesburg high team championship team from the year before had 5 of my kids on it, Oak Grove has a bunch. I did it for 20+ years and won a lot of games and a couple of national titles. When I first started most of the teams in travel were daddys who wanted their kids to play SS, pitch and bat 4th but that's all changed and the level of coaching and play has dramatically increased(their are still some idiots but not as many). Also in the higher levels of high school ball here in Mississippi the coaching is getting better and better(which I'm glad to see), there's a lot of good ones out there now. IMO the overall product in baseball is becoming better and better because you're getting better coaching and development of kids when they're younger(i.e. travel ball,etc.), high school coaching is becoming better and therefore college coaches are getting more polished kids in their programs. Also the access to quality personal training is a tremendous asset now. Heck when I was growing up these kind of things didn't exist, all we had was coach billy bob telling us to keep that back shoulder up and squash the bug lol, even at the high school level training was in the dark ages compared to now. I played at Meridian which was the largest school in the state then and we had more facilities and training available to us but still the average travel ball player now is getting more training than we got then. I'm proud to say baseball has come a long way overall but especially in Mississippi and the MSU baseball program was a huge part of that. Sorry for rambling but I could talk on this all day!

[Commercecomet24]

529 is almost certainly more accurate for that HR. What is true, though, is that Mantle's likely didn't go 565. It is almost impossible for a person to hit a ball that far.

No it's not. I did it once with an aluminum bat and a golf ball lol!

[shoeless joe]

Good question. Travel ball has become more and more about developing players. In the early days a lot of it was just daddys wanting to put a team together so their kid could play SS, Pitch and bat 4th lol, but that's changed over the years. There's a lot of really good coaches in travel ball now(still a few idiots) but it's a whole lot better.

I think thats becoming more and more the case. Heck even at the HS level coaches are becoming more dependent on travel ball for development of their players. Half the kids on the West Jones State Championship team from last year were my players, Hattiesburg high team championship team from the year before had 5 of my kids on it, Oak Grove has a bunch. I did it for 20+ years and won a lot of games and a couple of national titles. When I first started most of the teams in travel were daddys who wanted their kids to play SS, pitch and bat 4th but that's all changed and the level of coaching and play has dramatically increased(their are still some idiots but not as many). Also in the higher levels of high school ball here in Mississippi the coaching is getting better and better(which I'm glad to see), there's a lot of good ones out there now. IMO the overall product in baseball is becoming better and better because you're getting better coaching and development of kids when they're younger(i.e. travel ball,etc.), high school coaching is becoming better and therefore college coaches are getting more polished kids in their programs. Also the access to quality personal training is a tremendous asset now. Heck when I was growing up these kind of things didn't exist, all we had was coach billy bob telling us to keep that back shoulder up and squash the bug lol, even at the high school level training was in the dark ages compared to now. I played at Meridian which was the largest school in the state then and we had more facilities and training available to us but still the average travel ball player now is getting more training than we got then. I'm proud to say baseball has come a long way overall but especially in Mississippi and the MSU baseball program was a huge part of that. Sorry for rambling but I could talk on this all day!

Man...I’m going to have to disagree to an extent. Maybe I just haven’t been around the travel ball programs that you have. I’m sure there are good ones, and I can’t argue that overall it’s better than it used to be...and it was absolutely awful about 15 yrs ago.

[Commercecomet24]

Man...I’m going to have to disagree to an extent. Maybe I just haven’t been around the travel ball programs that you have. I’m sure there are good ones, and I can’t argue that overall it’s better than it used to be...and it was absolutely awful about 15 yrs ago.

When I first got into 20+ years ago it was dreadful, but league/rec ball was even worse. Times have changed for the better and it's still evolving. Now I will say we only sought out tournaments with the best/most elite teams so that's the reason for my assessment.

Yeah there's still some bad ones just like with anything else(and i've seen them) but compared to where it was it's like night and day. And may be you've been around some of those lol, and the bad ones can definitely leave a bad taste in your mouth, but programs like the one I used to run, East Coast, SBG, TPL as well as a bunch of others are first rate and produce well developed players.

ETA I could have taken my 13 and 14 year olds and beat a bunch of hs teams.

[Lord McBuckethead]

The Montana/Brady, Ruth/Bonds thing is sort of like Jim Brown and guys like Emmitt Smith.

I'm pretty sure as a player Brown was better. But by his choice he didn't play for a long time even though he could have. Smith has the better numbers. As does Walter Payton who I believe was also better than Smith too.

And I'll say Sandy Koufax had the best stuff I have ever seen on film. But he only had a six year peak and retired at 30.

One of my favorite games I ever watched was Kerry Wood's 20k game. dude was straight dealing for all 27 outs. I am not sure who the best pitcher of all time is, but Kerry's 20k game was damn dominate. If I had to list the top 10 pitchers I have seen pitch as far as total career I would include these guys....

Randy Johnson
Verlander
Maddox
Clemmens
Curt Schilling
Nolan Ryan
Rivera
Pedro Martinez
roy Holliday
Kerry Wood

All pretty much dominated their entire careers until injury or age stopped them.

[Commercecomet24]

One of my favorite games I ever watched was Kerry Wood's 20k game. dude was straight dealing for all 27 outs. I am not sure who the best pitcher of all time is, but Kerry's 20k game was damn dominate. If I had to list the top 10 pitchers I have seen pitch as far as total career I would include these guys....

Randy Johnson
Verlander
Maddox
Clemmens
Curt Schilling
Nolan Ryan
Rivera
Pedro Martinez
roy Holliday
Kerry Wood

All pretty much dominated their entire careers until injury or age stopped them.

I remember that game. Kid had a ton of talent. He was filthy. Another one of those "what could've been" stories.

[basedog]

Good question. Travel ball has become more and more about developing players. In the early days a lot of it was just daddys wanting to put a team together so their kid could play SS, Pitch and bat 4th lol, but that's changed over the years. There's a lot of really good coaches in travel ball now(still a few idiots) but it's a whole lot better.

I think thats becoming more and more the case. Heck even at the HS level coaches are becoming more dependent on travel ball for development of their players. Half the kids on the West Jones State Championship team from last year were my players, Hattiesburg high team championship team from the year before had 5 of my kids on it, Oak Grove has a bunch. I did it for 20+ years and won a lot of games and a couple of national titles. When I first started most of the teams in travel were daddys who wanted their kids to play SS, pitch and bat 4th but that's all changed and the level of coaching and play has dramatically increased(their are still some idiots but not as many). Also in the higher levels of high school ball here in Mississippi the coaching is getting better and better(which I'm glad to see), there's a lot of good ones out there now. IMO the overall product in baseball is becoming better and better because you're getting better coaching and development of kids when they're younger(i.e. travel ball,etc.), high school coaching is becoming better and therefore college coaches are getting more polished kids in their programs. Also the access to quality personal training is a tremendous asset now. Heck when I was growing up these kind of things didn't exist, all we had was coach billy bob telling us to keep that back shoulder up and squash the bug lol, even at the high school level training was in the dark ages compared to now. I played at Meridian which was the largest school in the state then and we had more facilities and training available to us but still the average travel ball player now is getting more training than we got then. I'm proud to say baseball has come a long way overall but especially in Mississippi and the MSU baseball program was a huge part of that. Sorry for rambling but I could talk on this all day!

Good post CC. So many players now days have personal trainers and "training technique" Coaches and at a young age. Seems to be a lot of jealous parents now days. Travel Ball is a very competitive game also. Plus all these Sporting Equipment Companies sponsoring events and handing out things such as shoes, hats, shirts, gloves and bats.

Btw I see where we have 4 or 5 Baseball players leaving, but in realty it's gonna be more and more in every sport.

[Commercecomet24]

Good post CC. So many players now days have personal trainers and "training technique" Coaches and at a young age. Seems to be a lot of jealous parents now days. Travel Ball is a very competitive game also. Plus all these Sporting Equipment Companies sponsoring events and handing out things such as shoes, hats, shirts, gloves and bats.

Btw I see where we have 4 or 5 Baseball players leaving, but in realty it's gonna be more and more in every sport.


Thanks, man, JMHO. Yeah and I don't recommend personal trainers for the young at all. Wait until they at least hit puberty, kids aren't even semi developed until then. I know you've seen it to where the scrawny little kid in 7th-8th grade turns into a 6'4" 230 pound monster by graduation and then the kid who was the biggest and strongest at those ages and who just overpowered everyone for years stops growing and developing and gets passed by. And you're right about it being highly competitive.

[basedog]

Thanks, man, JMHO. Yeah and I don't recommend personal trainers for the young at all. Wait until they at least hit puberty, kids aren't even semi developed until then. I know you've seen it to where the scrawny little kid in 7th-8th grade turns into a 6'4" 230 pound monster by graduation and then the kid who was the biggest and strongest at those ages and who just overpowered everyone for years stops growing and developing and gets passed by. And you're right about it being highly competitive.

Your comments about scrawny kids reminded me of Dennis Rodman who grew a foot after High School I believe.

[Commercecomet24]

Your comments about scrawny kids reminded me of Dennis Rodman who grew a foot after High School I believe.

Yeah he did and it happens a lot. There was a kid that went to West and I used to coach him in baseball. at 14 he was about 5'6", when he graduated last year he was 6'3" and over 200 pounds and playing football at unm. I've seen it more than once, unfortunately for me I never hit that "growth spurt" everyone talked about lol.

[shoeless joe]

One of my favorite games I ever watched was Kerry Wood's 20k game. dude was straight dealing for all 27 outs. I am not sure who the best pitcher of all time is, but Kerry's 20k game was damn dominate. If I had to list the top 10 pitchers I have seen pitch as far as total career I would include these guys....

Randy Johnson
Verlander
Maddox
Clemmens
Curt Schilling
Nolan Ryan
Rivera
Pedro Martinez
roy Holliday
Kerry Wood

All pretty much dominated their entire careers until injury or age stopped them.

For me Clemens isn’t on the list. IMO he benefited more from steroids than any other player.