Do You Wish We Had Kept Stans?

[confucius say]

If you could go back to March 2012 and have a do over, would you keep him or no?

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Nope

[Dawsonmsu]

No-brainer! Our program has suffered greatly when we fired our David Cutliffe.

[Todd4State]

Nope. Lost control of the team. It was time to move on. What I would do differently is not hire Rick Ray.

[ZedFedder]

Nope. Lost control of the team. It was time to move on. What I would do differently is not hire Rick Ray.

This is it. Stansbury had to go. I am very thankful for his time at MSU. He did many good things. At the end, though, he lost ALL control. The issue was the Rick Ray hire. We could have gotten someone better than Clemson's THIRD assistant.

[Todd4State]

This is it. Stansbury had to go. I am very thankful for his time at MSU. He did many good things. At the end, though, he lost ALL control. The issue was the Rick Ray hire. We could have gotten someone better than Clemson's THIRD assistant.

I don't know what the infatuation that some MSU fans have with keeping a coach for decades.

[msstatelp1]

If you could go back to March 2012 and have a do over, would you keep him or no?

Not only no but hell no. We should have paid Clemson to take him. The screw up wasn't firing Stans, it was the Rick Ray hire and not pulling the plug when it became super obvious he wasn't the answer.

[TrapGame]

Stans lost the team and wasn't getting it back. Ever. Hiring someone other than Rick Ray would have been the difference maker.

[ShotgunDawg]

I wonder if we could hire Stans again now?

He could easily regain control of the program since all his players are obviously gone, correct mistakes he made in the past, and better than anyone knows how to win at MSU.

[Homedawg]

Oh my dear sweet baby Jesus.... get off the sauce gun...

[Cooterpoot]

Stans lost control of the program and our back was against the wall with the NCAA over recruiting issues. He had to go. Plus, there's no western division to win to make him look better than he was.

[trojandawg]

Think we did right thing at the time. We just made a bad hire. Question is would you hire him back now if Howland can't rebuild from this offseason?

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Think we did right thing at the time. We just made a bad hire. Question is would you hire him back now if Howland can't rebuild from this offseason?

Nope

[Dawsonmsu]

Our basketball program has been on a downward trend the day Stansbury left. Wait to you see the results next year. You will be begging to have him back.

[confucius say]

I understand all the people who say, "no, stans had to go. The problem was hiring Ray." I don't disagree. But my devils advocate response to that is howland has been here 5 seasons and has not been able to do any better than what stans did either. Arguably not as good as stans (go look at stans first 5 years: 2 NIT and 2 NCAA, and those five years were followed by 2 more consecutive NCAA appearances).

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Our basketball program has been on a downward trend the day Stansbury left. Wait to you see the results next year. You will be begging to have him back.

Tell me the difference between Stans last 4 years & Howland last 3. Here's a hint.... You can't.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

I understand all the people who say, "no, stans had to go. The problem was hiring Ray." I don't disagree. But my devils advocate response to that is howland has been here 5 seasons and has not been able to do any better than what stans did either. Arguably not as good as stans (go look at stans first 5 years: 2 NIT and 2 NCAA, and those five years were followed by 2 more consecutive NCAA appearances).

Are you going to act like Howland 1st 2 years weren't just turning this program back to a P5 program? Do you not remember those 3 years of Rick Ray. Howland was building literally from the ground.

[Joebob]

No. He had to go. You can’t tell me there’s not another decent coach in this country who would come to MSU. We just need to find one of them.

[maroonmania]

At the time I was pretty torn on it, but if I knew then what I know now I would have definitely given him one more year to see if he could get things back in order after having the Sidney stench exit the program. We certainly should not have gotten rid of Stans without having a pretty dang good idea that we could bring in a competent HC to fill the vacancy.

[Todd4State]

Tell me the difference between Stans last 4 years & Howland last 3. Here's a hint.... You can't.

This is true.

[Todd4State]

To me it seems like the real issue here is Howland is pretty close to the end and we're going to have to make a move at some point in the near future. Whether he retires or is fired we'll see. But I'll be surprised if he is around another two years or so.

[Cooterpoot]

Our basketball program has been on a downward trend the day Stansbury left. Wait to you see the results next year. You will be begging to have him back.

No sir, that began while he was still here.

[Cooterpoot]

The fact is, our basketball program has been great one season. It's been pretty meh outside it. Stans blew NCAA game after NCAA game with good talent. Then it went completely off the tracks for him. He got desperate and took a lot of bad chances that burned him and us. Same could almost be said about Richard Williams. He and Stans together we're getting it going. Then he slipped up.
I wish it would've worked out because they both love State.

[maroonmania]

To me it seems like the real issue here is Howland is pretty close to the end and we're going to have to make a move at some point in the near future. Whether he retires or is fired we'll see. But I'll be surprised if he is around another two years or so.

Its going to be very hard for Howland or any other coach to ever have the same or more success than we had under Stans because they are having to perform and recruit with a program that has lost a lot of the fan support we had when Stans was here (for a number of reasons). That's why, though I've overall been disappointed with Howland relative to my expectations for him, I'm not sure what to do with men's basketball at the HC position given the poor support it gets from our fanbase. If Howland had not come in at a time when we had a ton of legacies coming through, he would not have even had the success he's had.

[confucius say]

Tell me the difference between Stans last 4 years & Howland last 3. Here's a hint.... You can't.

That's the point. We blew up our program and endured ray to get the equivalent of what we already had.

[confucius say]

Are you going to act like Howland 1st 2 years weren't just turning this program back to a P5 program? Do you not remember those 3 years of Rick Ray. Howland was building literally from the ground.

Ben gets some leeway there sure. But he in 5 years is still not where stans was in four years. And I think the 1 extra year leeway is fair considering it's not like stans took over a world beater (comparing the roster of stans first team in 97-98 vs bens in 15-16 is not all that different, as Ben had an all sec post guy in ware, a Sr sword, a jr Ready, and q and Malik as freshman along with contributions like Fred Thomas and Holman).

And the eye test doesn't reveal a lot of difference between stans teams and Ben teams. Just feels like we blew up the program just to get what we basically already had.

[Todd4State]

Its going to be very hard for Howland or any other coach to ever have the same or more success than we had under Stans because they are having to perform and recruit with a program that has lost a lot of the fan support we had when Stans was here (for a number of reasons). That's why, though I've overall been disappointed with Howland relative to my expectations for him, I'm not sure what to do with men's basketball at the HC position given the poor support it gets from our fanbase. If Howland had not come in at a time when we had a ton of legacies coming through, he would not have even had the success he's had.

I don't disagree and I think the thing about SEC basketball is it's just not as prestigious throughout the league in general compared to other SEC sports so we're going to either have to take a chance on a mid major coach, a retread, or and I know some will flip out when I say this- go try to get Kermit Davis from Ole Miss.

Those are probably our best options and I have a feeling that Cohen is probably going to end up getting some coach from a mid major. Which I would be fine with. No question in my mind we could have done better than Rick Ray. Howland is a retread who has done OK but has not reached expectations.

I think Cohen is going to have to re-seat the Hump again to make it a more hostile atmosphere and that's the FIRST thing I would do if I were him.

[basedog]

The Sec as a whole is a very meh conference, same with our MBB program. Regardless what they about seating, it's not gonna be enough to pack the hump IMO, if anything we don't need 10k seats.

Reduce the seating and put a bar with video games and the students and younger crowds would pack the Hump***

[R2Dawg]

Love Stans and what he did for MSU and he carried the maroon and white too. He stood against Kentucky toe to toe, with the media, SEC cheese and didn't back down. Stans great for his time.

Howland inherited a mess, made us respectable again and even got us relevant on national stage again.

College basketball and sports is not the same today as it has been. Social media, power shift to student athletes, among other things has made coaching a different animal these days. This is for another topic so I won't go there here.

Point is I think Stans and Howland did a good job and played their role for the time. Not really sure what is next. Gotta give Howland a chance to see what he can do with this mess now.

[Ari Gold]

You all want to know why I call the MSU fan base the dumbest fan base for MBK..
This thread is your answer..

[Ifyouonlyknew]

That's the point. We blew up our program and endured ray to get the equivalent of what we already had.

That's because of the Ray hiring not because of the Stans firing. Stans should've been let go. Ray shouldn't have been hired.

[maroonmania]

That's because of the Ray hiring not because of the Stans firing. Stans should've been let go. Ray shouldn't have been hired.

Fact is, you can't rewrite history. We DID hire Rick Ray so that has to be factored in a thread like this where you are looking back on what transpired. As we have said in many other coaching searches, you dang well better not fire who you've got unless you are nearly certain you can replace them with someone better.

[dawgday166]

Love Stans and what he did for MSU and he carried the maroon and white too. He stood against Kentucky toe to toe, with the media, SEC cheese and didn't back down. Stans great for his time.

Howland inherited a mess, made us respectable again and even got us relevant on national stage again.

College basketball and sports is not the same today as it has been. Social media, power shift to student athletes, among other things has made coaching a different animal these days. This is for another topic so I won't go there here.

Point is I think Stans and Howland did a good job and played their role for the time. Not really sure what is next. Gotta give Howland a chance to see what he can do with this mess now.

KY then wasn't same as KY now. Calipari is infinitely better than Tubby. FL was team to beat when Stans was coaching.

[confucius say]

You all want to know why I call the MSU fan base the dumbest fan base for MBK..
This thread is your answer..

Nah it's worth the discussion. We made a decision to move on from stans, a decision many supported, but that decision has not paid off so far from a win-loss results standpoint. That is an objective, indisputable fact. The 8 seasons after stans gave us 1 nit, 1 ncaa, and whatever this season would have brought.

Doesn't mean the decision to move on was wrong, but it is worth a discussion.

[dawgday166]

Nah it's worth the discussion. We made a decision to move on from stans, a decision many supported, but that decision has not paid off so far from a win-loss results standpoint. That is an objective, indisputable fact. The 8 seasons after stans gave us 1 nit, 1 ncaa, and whatever this season would have brought.

Doesn't mean the decision to move on was wrong, but it is worth a discussion.

Not sure it's worth the discussion to inquire if we should've kept Stans. That's a no-brainer IMO. from '05-'12 the drama on/off the court, his pandering to high rated players and playing favorites etc. was borderline ridiculous IMO.

[confucius say]

That's because of the Ray hiring not because of the Stans firing. Stans should've been let go. Ray shouldn't have been hired.

Ok, even if you take ray out of the equation (which you cannot but for arguments sake), Ben has been no better than stans (one could easily argue worse) even ignoring bens first two seasons. You said so yourself in this thread when you said bens seasons 3 through 5 is what stans gave you in his last 4 seasons. Ben = Stans.

[ShotgunDawg]

Oh my dear sweet baby Jesus.... get off the sauce gun...

Was just throwing it out there for discussion.

I honestly don't care enough about basketball to even know if it would be a good idea.

[confucius say]

Not sure it's worth the discussion to inquire if we should've kept Stans. That's a no-brainer IMO. from '05-'12 the drama on/off the court, his pandering to high rated players and playing favorites etc. was borderline ridiculous IMO.

Fair point. But 2005-12 > 2013-20, no?

[Ari Gold]

Love Stans and what he did for MSU and he carried the maroon and white too. He stood against Kentucky toe to toe, with the media, SEC cheese and didn't back down. Stans great for his time.

Howland inherited a mess, made us respectable again and even got us relevant on national stage again.

College basketball and sports is not the same today as it has been. Social media, power shift to student athletes, among other things has made coaching a different animal these days. This is for another topic so I won't go there here.

Point is I think Stans and Howland did a good job and played their role for the time. Not really sure what is next. Gotta give Howland a chance to see what he can do with this mess now.

Not a bad take, but how is this a mess again??

We had 3 players declare for the draft... 2 will get taken one will not. All 3 need to come back one more year. Esp RW he might go late 1st round, and kid could be a lottery pick if he came back one more year.. and as much as you people shit on Nick you all should be glad he is gone. So it’s CBH fault he signed guys that are good enough for the NBA.. ?

The so called mess I guess is the transfers. The mess of this was 2 guys ( King and Butts) that didn’t develop , were miss
evaluated or just didn’t fit CBH system.. and that does fall on CBH and his staff .. but also give them props for signing and finding Iverson Molinar. When this kid learns to defend at this level he will be special .

Let’s see what kind of transfers we get, how good the incoming Freshman turn out to be , if the WKY transfer is a SEC talent , and see what kind of impact if any Quinten Post can have...
The expectations won’t be as high next year , but according to EVERYONE outside of the MSU family we over achieved this season .. ( no one had us picked to finish higher than 6th, and half of them had us picked 10th or worse )

And with future Hall of Fame coach Rick Stansbury. There is a reason Stan’s is where his is... no other big time school wanted him...
Mike Anderson fired from Arky.. lands job at St Johns ( the next year )
Mike Fox fired from UGA. Lands job with California ( the next year ):
Think Texas AM is happy with their hire of Buzz ??

One player and one player only made the Stan’s years look like the golden era of MSU basketball to some.. that was a transfer named Lawrence Roberts.. thank you Robin Roberts

[dawgday166]

Fair point. But 2005-12 > 2013-20, no?

Maybe that time frame is but there were Rick Ray years in there. And Stans needed to go.

Having a slew of guys leave is a blow so not sure about that. Hate losing Woodard. Figured Perry would go. Glad Nick is going cause I believe this was a "pandering" case with Howland too. We just didn't have consistently good chemistry between Nick and Team ... especially Carter. Nick should've come off the bench for a while before perhaps being inserted into starting lineup. Throwing him out there from the get-go was a mistake and Howland should've known that.

So the difference IMO is that even if last 3 or so years were equivalent to Stans' last 3 or so (which is debatable) Howland was building from the ground whereas Stans was sliding way deeper from what was built during 01 thru 04.

So I think we stick with Ben for a while longer. Can't tell if he's semi-retired yet or not myself. Am disappointed we don't seem to have the depth to absorb a little better the losses we're facing but then ... most of the depth is transferring too.

[Ari Gold]

Fair point. But 2005-12 > 2013-20, no?


How silly...
CBH took over absolute dawg shit a total rebuild.
Stan’s takes over a program 2 years removed from a sweet 16 and final four.. and with a school he is already with..

Whatever blame anyone wants to throw out there falls directly on one mans shoulders .. Scott Stricklin..

[hailstate17]

I don?t post on here often, but there?s a major difference. Howland doesn?t have players fighting in the stands on national tv. He doesn?t have numerous players out of shape because they are allowed to skip workouts. The 2010-2012 teams weren?t what the 2002-2004 Stan?s teams were. They had lost discipline and toughness. Our program was a joke y?all. What college program have you heard of where you can just tell your coach you aren?t working out and nothing happens to you. While I wish the Howland era was going a little better, I?m at least not embarrassed by our product.

[gtowndawg]

That's the point. We blew up our program and endured ray to get the equivalent of what we already had.

Exactly right. I was fine moving on from Stans and no I'm not interested in bringing him back. But this is a 100%, fact based statement. Howland seems like a nice guy but it's time to retire.

[Ari Gold]

I don?t post on here often, but there?s a major difference. Howland doesn?t have players fighting in the stands on national tv. He doesn?t have numerous players out of shape because they are allowed to skip workouts. The 2010-2012 teams weren?t what the 2002-2004 Stan?s teams were. They had lost discipline and toughness. Our program was a joke y?all. What college program have you heard of where you can just tell your coach you aren?t working out and nothing happens to you. While I wish the Howland era was going a little better, I?m at least not embarrassed by our product.

If this is the caliber of posts you bring.. Post More..

[confucius say]

Maybe that time frame is but there were Rick Ray years in there. And Stans needed to go.

Having a slew of guys leave is a blow so not sure about that. Hate losing Woodard. Figured Perry would go. Glad Nick is going cause I believe this was a "pandering" case with Howland too. We just didn't have consistently good chemistry between Nick and Team ... especially Carter. Nick should've come off the bench for a while before perhaps being inserted into starting lineup. Throwing him out there from the get-go was a mistake and Howland should've known that.

So the difference IMO is that even if last 3 or so years were equivalent to Stans' last 3 or so (which is debatable) Howland was building from the ground whereas Stans was sliding way deeper from what was built during 01 thru 04.

So I think we stick with Ben for a while longer. Can't tell if he's semi-retired yet or not myself. Am disappointed we don't seem to have the depth to absorb a little better the losses we're facing but then ... most of the depth is transferring too.

I agree you stick with Ben

[confucius say]

How silly...
CBH took over absolute dawg shit a total rebuild.
Stan’s takes over a program 2 years removed from a sweet 16 and final four.. and with a school he is already with..

Whatever blame anyone wants to throw out there falls directly on one mans shoulders .. Scott Stricklin..

Ben just finished year 5 and the program is no better from a wins-loss standpoint then where stans was. Ben gets a pass years 1-2, but 3-5 and going forward are on him.

[Ari Gold]

Let’s play the game.. We fire CBH..
You are JC .. sell this program to be big name coach or a up and coming hot assistant..

The school just fired a 3 time final four coach that was successful everywhere he has been. Finished 4th in the sec coming off back to back to back 20 win seasons and possibly back to back ncaa tourney bids. And he just had 3 players declare for the draft.
You play in front of a half empty arena every night.
You have little if any basketball history
Your arena is beyond outdated
You have to move Starkville Ms ( this isn’t a dig on StarkVegas but come on people get real )
Stay clean with the NCAA
Make the NCAA tourney early and often
And The previous coach had one of the lowest if not the lowest salary in the league so don’t expect a huge contract

Good ****ing luck...
What big time coach would take this job? What hot assistant takes this job?

Hell arguably our football program has had more success the last 23 years than our MBK has..

[Ari Gold]

Ben just finished year 5 and the program is no better from a wins-loss standpoint then where stans was. Ben gets a pass years 1-2, but 3-5 and going forward are on him.

Ok .
Back to back to back 20 win seasons
Multiple players drafted or in the D leagues
NIT, NCAA, another post season was pending
First time ever to have 11 plus wins back to back in sec
Finished 4th for the first time in rhe 14 team conference

[confucius say]

Let’s play the game.. We fire CBH..
You are JC .. sell this program to be big name coach or a up and coming hot assistant..

The school just fired a 3 time final four coach that was successful everywhere he has been. Finished 4th in the sec coming off back to back to back 20 win seasons and possibly back to back ncaa tourney bids. And he just had 3 players declare for the draft.
You play in front of a half empty arena every night.
You have little if any basketball history
Your arena is beyond outdated
You have to move Starkville Ms ( this isn’t a dig on StarkVegas but come on people get real )
Stay clean with the NCAA
Make the NCAA tourney early and often
And The previous coach had one of the lowest if not the lowest salary in the league so don’t expect a huge contract

Good ****ing luck...
What big time coach would take this job? What hot assistant takes this job?

Hell arguably our football program has had more success the last 23 years than our MBK has..

No way you fire Ben right now. He's done nothing deserved of being fired.

[confucius say]

Ok .
Back to back to back 20 win seasons
Multiple players drafted or in the D leagues
NIT, NCAA, another post season was pending
First time ever to have 11 plus wins back to back in sec
Finished 4th for the first time in rhe 14 team conference

All of these are positive. I'm not anti Ben. I want him to be successful. But your program is judged on tourney births, or at least being on the bubble. And after year 5, he, with more talent and draft picks than stans, has us in the same place stans had us.

I'm just starting to think we caused ourselves a lot of unnecessary grief, ostracized core fans who have never bought back in, and endured 5 horrible years all to be in the same spot we were already in.

[maroonmania]

I agree you stick with Ben

I agree we stick Howland as well because at this point with our program, we can't do any better. Our fanbase has seemingly turned apathetic on MBB for now anyway. I know for me, the men's basketball game reeks and is slimy and I've personally lost a lot of interest in it myself. I mean how does the LSU HC still have a job? How do LSU basketball fans and their university ALLOW him to still have a job? It's despicable. The sport is all about guys getting their recruiting payday and then getting to the NBA as quickly as possible. I'm convinced that a high number of these basketball transfers are looking for a second recruiting payday. Its a me, me, me sport. So I'm not going to lose sleep over it either way. Still love college football because football is the ultimate team game and its great entertainment, but sports like baseball (though its always been big with us), WBB, and even softball have grown on me a lot because they are at least more like what college sports were originally meant to be. BUT, this thread was originally about what would you do with Stans if you could go back now, not about Howland.

[dawgday166]

All of these are positive. I'm not anti Ben. I want him to be successful. But your program is judged on tourney births, or at least being on the bubble. And after year 5, he, with more talent and draft picks than stans, has us in the same place stans had us.

Perry & Woodard were more talent but guard play wasn't. Guard play killed us most of the time. And regardless of what anyone says ... Nick may be trying to go pro but he ain't in our top 5 guards all time. He may make top 10.

[Hot Rock]

it was time for Stans to go... No need to rehash the reasons because I think his supporters are just Rebel trolls. If you are not, then shut up, you aren't helping.

The Rick Ray hire was the problem but Mississippi State basketball was such a mess from what Stans left us with, we weren't getting anyone of note. Keeping him as long as we did was a problem but even if he had been fired after year one or two, it would not have been any easier to right the ship.

Ben Howland needs to stay and he deserves the proper support fan base. He has brought respectability back to the program and he still can build it further if the fans show up and give them a proper atmosphere to recruit and play.

Show the freak up at games and be vocal! Any other answer at this point is just REBEL trolling or a bitter jilted lover.

[confucius say]

it was time for Stans to go... No need to rehash the reasons because I think his supporters are just Rebel trolls. If you are not, then shut up, you aren't helping.

The Rick Ray hire was the problem but Mississippi State basketball was such a mess from what Stans left us with, we weren't getting anyone of note. Keeping him as long as we did was a problem but even if he had been fired after year one or two, it would not have been any easier to right the ship.

Ben Howland needs to stay and he deserves the proper support fan base. He has brought respectability back to the program and he still can build it further if the fans show up and give them a proper atmosphere to recruit and play.

Show the freak up at games and be vocal! Any other answer at this point is just REBEL trolling or a bitter jilted lover.

Forget ray. If we had hired Ben instead of ray and were coming off 8 seasons of Ben, what objective evidence is there that we would be better of than we are now after 5 seasons of Ben?

[tcdog70]

Firing Ben would be just as stupid as firing Stansbury was. We fired a Coach who only had a losing record against-Kentucky and Florida. Everyone wanted Stans to get to next level--Signing Sidney was a gamble and it didn't work out. Under Stans we never played a]game that we didn't have a chance to win.. Stans haters are just going to hate. Other than The Babe our best basketball ever was because of Rick Stansbury. Even the few good years under Williams was aided by Stansbury. So for Me having watched the Dogs since Joe Dan Gold--yep we 17ed up firing Stans.

[msu15]

Yep

[R2Dawg]

Not a bad take, but how is this a mess again??

We had 3 players declare for the draft... 2 will get taken one will not. All 3 need to come back one more year. Esp RW he might go late 1st round, and kid could be a lottery pick if he came back one more year.. and as much as you people shit on Nick you all should be glad he is gone. So it?s CBH fault he signed guys that are good enough for the NBA.. ?

The so called mess I guess is the transfers. The mess of this was 2 guys ( King and Butts) that didn?t develop , were miss
evaluated or just didn?t fit CBH system.. and that does fall on CBH and his staff .. but also give them props for signing and finding Iverson Molinar. When this kid learns to defend at this level he will be special .

Let?s see what kind of transfers we get, how good the incoming Freshman turn out to be , if the WKY transfer is a SEC talent , and see what kind of impact if any Quinten Post can have...
The expectations won?t be as high next year , but according to EVERYONE outside of the MSU family we over achieved this season .. ( no one had us picked to finish higher than 6th, and half of them had us picked 10th or worse )

And with future Hall of Fame coach Rick Stansbury. There is a reason Stan?s is where his is... no other big time school wanted him...
Mike Anderson fired from Arky.. lands job at St Johns ( the next year )
Mike Fox fired from UGA. Lands job with California ( the next year ):
Think Texas AM is happy with their hire of Buzz ??

One player and one player only made the Stan?s years look like the golden era of MSU basketball to some.. that was a transfer named Lawrence Roberts.. thank you Robin Roberts

Simple, we hardly have enough players to even practice. Hence my other thread about something must be done about everyone can transfer portal out whenever they choose. Not Howland's fault which is why I say see what he can do with starting over again.

[Ari Gold]

Firing Ben would be just as stupid as firing Stansbury was. We fired a Coach who only had a losing record against-Kentucky and Florida. Everyone wanted Stans to get to next level--Signing Sidney was a gamble and it didn't work out. Under Stans we never played a]game that we didn't have a chance to win.. Stans haters are just going to hate. Other than The Babe our best basketball ever was because of Rick Stansbury. Even the few good years under Williams was aided by Stansbury. So for Me having watched the Dogs since Joe Dan Gold--yep we 17ed up firing Stans.

Never played a game we didn’t have a chan e to win?? Wow ..

[Coach34]

The problem was not getting rid of Stands. It was hiring Ray over Kermit and a couple others. Ray should have never even been considered.

[BrunswickDawg]

Firing Ben would be just as stupid as firing Stansbury was. We fired a Coach who only had a losing record against-Kentucky and Florida. Everyone wanted Stans to get to next level--Signing Sidney was a gamble and it didn't work out. Under Stans we never played a]game that we didn't have a chance to win.. Stans haters are just going to hate. Other than The Babe our best basketball ever was because of Rick Stansbury. Even the few good years under Williams was aided by Stansbury. So for Me having watched the Dogs since Joe Dan Gold--yep we 17ed up firing Stans.

Never played a game we didn't have a chance to win? That's some revisionist BS.

Ricks teams had multiple games virtually every season where we got blown out by 20 or more points.

[Ari Gold]

The problem was not getting rid of Stands. It was hiring Ray over Kermit and a couple others. Ray should have never even been considered.

2 stories that I both heard..
1. From the coaches mouth himself.. Was the ridiculous offer that we pitched to him .. I was actually embarrassed
2. From an assistant at Clemson at the time.. Rick Ray was just as stunned as we were with his hiring... very funny story. Scott should have been fired on the spot for that hire..

That’s how bad the basketball hiring was handled..

[confucius say]

The problem was not getting rid of Stands. It was hiring Ray over Kermit and a couple others. Ray should have never even been considered.

I've seen nothing from kermits career, present job included, to suggests he would be more successful here than stans.

Same for howland. Seen nothing the last three years that makes me think he is doing anything that stans would not be doing if stans was still here.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

The problem was not getting rid of Stands. It was hiring Ray over Kermit and a couple others. Ray should have never even been considered.

It shouldn't have been Kermit. He had done nothing at MTSU to deserve the job. 11-12 seasons no NCAA bids. Rick Ray in no way should've been the choice. A lot of the big money boosters wanted Kenny Payne. I didn't want him either but he would've at least bought players in the program.

[dawgday166]

I've seen nothing from kermits career, present job included, to suggests he would be more successful here than stans.

Same for howland. Seen nothing the last three years that makes me think he is doing anything that stans would not be doing if stans was still here.

Removing UCLA from equation (which is almost like Bama in football if they get good coach ... and Ben was one of top 3 there since Wooden), Ben was pretty successful at N. Az and Pitt ... neither of which are basketball powerhouses. He went to 2 Sweet 16s at Pitt while Stans flubbed all his NCAA tourney appearances.

So I don't agree that Ben hasn't been at least as good as and maybe even better than Stans. 96 team was combo of Stans' recruiting and Williams' tournament coaching.

But last 3 years ... you might have some argument there.

[archdog]

If you could go back to March 2012 and have a do over, would you keep him or no?

Yes and if Howland goes, we need to bring him back.

[confucius say]

Removing UCLA from equation (which is almost like Bama in football if they get good coach ... and Ben was one of top 3 there since Wooden), Ben was pretty successful at N. Az and Pitt ... neither of which are basketball powerhouses. He went to 2 Sweet 16s at Pitt while Stans flubbed all his NCAA tourney appearances.

So I don't agree that Ben hasn't been at least as good as and maybe even better than Stans. 96 team was combo of Stans' recruiting and Williams' tournament coaching.

But last 3 years ... you might have some argument there.

Yea i meant just in his time here. And to his last 3 years bc it is fair to give him a pass his first two years.

[confucius say]

It shouldn't have been Kermit. He had done nothing at MTSU to deserve the job. 11-12 seasons no NCAA bids. Rick Ray in no way should've been the choice. A lot of the big money boosters wanted Kenny Payne. I didn't want him either but he would've at least bought players in the program.

Bought?

[Hot Rock]

I am just tired of it all shut up about Stands, good men can mess up. He gone, been gone, let it the 17 go already.

[Todd4State]

Bought?

Freudian slip I'm sure. LOL.

[Dawgface]

The problem was not getting rid of Stands. It was hiring Ray over Kermit and a couple others. Ray should have never even been considered.

This. But I would certainly take Stans over RR. The RR hire was the screw up.

[Coach34]

It shouldn't have been Kermit. He had done nothing at MTSU to deserve the job. 11-12 seasons no NCAA bids. Rick Ray in no way should've been the choice. A lot of the big money boosters wanted Kenny Payne. I didn't want him either but he would've at least bought players in the program.

If you compare Kermit and Rick Ray- especially with Kermit’s ties to Sville- there is no way in Hell you pick Rick Ray over Kermit

[Coach34]

Bought?

Well let’s be honest- that is how basketball recruiting works. People acting like this isn’t the case are morons. LSU’s Coach has been documented by the FBI for buying recruits- and he still has his job. Everybody that starts in the SEC has been bought on some level

[tcdog70]

If you compare Kermit and Rick Ray- especially with Kermit’s ties to Sville- there is no way in Hell you pick Rick Ray over Kermit

Agree, Kermit was bringing Butch---a no brainer.

[tcdog70]

Never played a game we didn?t have a chan e to win?? Wow ..

Every game that I watched under Stans--I thought we could win. Now we lost a several that we should not have. But at tip off I thought we had a chance to win.

[tcdog70]

Never played a game we didn't have a chance to win? That's some revisionist BS.

Ricks teams had multiple games virtually every season where we got blown out by 20 or more points.

Name the 20.point losses? He got robbed at least twice playing Kentucky. Multiple games every year. How the hell did he win 20 games a year. Every team loses some blow outs.but at the tip I always thought we had a chance to win.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

If you compare Kermit and Rick Ray- especially with Kermit’s ties to Sville- there is no way in Hell you pick Rick Ray over Kermit

Hell I was more qualified than Ray. Just saying Kermit shouldn't have been the choice either.

[dawgday166]

Hell I was more qualified than Ray. Just saying Kermit shouldn't have been the choice either.

Thought you were the football coach **** Of course that would probably still make you more qualified than Ray.

[confucius say]

Hell I was more qualified than Ray. Just saying Kermit shouldn't have been the choice either.

Yea you don't fire stans to hire Kermit. Much less ray.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

How the hell did he win 20 games a year.

Howland has won at least 20 games the last 3 years.

[tcdog70]

So, I'm a Howland fan-I don't want him fired--what's your 17ing point.

[tcdog70]

Never played a game we didn't have a chance to win? That's some revisionist BS.

Ricks teams had multiple games virtually every season where we got blown out by 20 or more points.

For every ten games Stans played he won 61/2 of them.


Taking over the helm as the Bulldogs head coach in 1998, Stansbury led his team to postseason tournament play 11 times in 14 seasons (six NCAA and five NIT tournaments), with five consecutive post-season tournament appearances, the first MSU basketball coach in history to accomplish this feat. His 2001?02 MSU team compiled the most wins in a single season in school history (27). Also achieved the highest national ranking in school history in 2003?04, No. 2 in the country (finished 26?4). Stansbury also owns MSU's record for consecutive 20-win seasons with four from 2001 to 2005 and again from 2006 to 2010.[6]

[SPMT]

Yes

[SPMT]

Would take him back yesterday. MSU is not blue blood. He got it.

[BrunswickDawg]

Name the 20.point losses? He got robbed at least twice playing Kentucky. Multiple games every year. How the hell did he win 20 games a year. Every team loses some blow outs.but at the tip I always thought we had a chance to win.

They may not have been multiple every year - but they were enough to say we weren't prepared to win every game -
Just a sample -
2001-2 - Cincy L 56-90; UF L 48-76 (MSU went 27-8 and won the SEC T)
2004-05 - Bama L 49-98

Stans was a good coach, who needed to go 2-3 seasons before we fired him. Howland is a good coach who has brought us back to a respectable level. At no point other than 1 season(2003-4)under Stans did I ever think we had a team that could beat all comers.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Here's the correct answer

Would you take back the 01-02 - 04-05 Stans? Hell yes in a heartbeat.

Would you take back the 05-06 - 11-12 Stans? No sir not at all.

[confucius say]

Howland has won at least 20 games the last 3 years.

Stans won 20 5 of last 6 years and when his defenders pointed that out they were told big damn deal. Which again is my point in this thread. Howland at MSU = Stans at MSU success wise. We put our program through hell and ran off a bunch of fans to get to the same place we already were.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Stans won 20 5 of last 6 years and when his defenders pointed that out they were told big damn deal. Which again is my point in this thread. Howland at MSU = Stans at MSU success wise. We put our program through hell and ran off a bunch of fans to get to the same place we already were.

You're just skipping the point where Howland had to bring us from hell because of Rick Ray. Stans needed to go. We needed to not hire Rick Ray. If we hire a competent coach after Stans those 3 years in the wilderness never happen & we don't have to rebuild from scratch. Just because the wrong hire was made with Ray doesn't mean it was the wrong decision to fire Stans. If Leach doesn't do well at MSU that doesn't mean we should've kept Moorhead.

[confucius say]

You're just skipping the point where Howland had to bring us from hell because of Rick Ray. Stans needed to go. We needed to not hire Rick Ray. If we hire a competent coach after Stans those 3 years in the wilderness never happen & we don't have to rebuild from scratch. Just because the wrong hire was made with Ray doesn't mean it was the wrong decision to fire Stans. If Leach doesn't do well at MSU that doesn't mean we should've kept Moorhead.

I'm not skipping it at all. I'm not holding bens first two years against him at all. this whole thread I've said his sample size is his past 3 years. I think that is fair, but we can use just his last 2 years or just his last 1 year if you'd like. Using any of those sample sizes, howland at MSU = Stans at MSU: solid but not great.

[Ari Gold]

Name the 20.point losses? He got robbed at least twice playing Kentucky. Multiple games every year. How the hell did he win 20 games a year. Every team loses some blow outs.but at the tip I always thought we had a chance to win.

The East and West divisions really help pad his stats. Shit we won west a few times with a 8-8/ 9-7record..
and name a 20 point loss?? Seriously? You don?t think he lost games by 20+?

[Todd4State]

You're just skipping the point where Howland had to bring us from hell because of Rick Ray. Stans needed to go. We needed to not hire Rick Ray. If we hire a competent coach after Stans those 3 years in the wilderness never happen & we don't have to rebuild from scratch. Just because the wrong hire was made with Ray doesn't mean it was the wrong decision to fire Stans. If Leach doesn't do well at MSU that doesn't mean we should've kept Moorhead.

You're right. Unfortunately it fuels fire for the "we can't fire so and so because we might end up with Rick Ray" told you so crowd.

[tcdog70]

The East and West divisions really help pad his stats. Shit we won west a few times with a 8-8/ 9-7record..
and name a 20 point loss?? Seriously? You don?t think he lost games by 20+?

Sure, his last 5 years he lost 7 games by 20. 3 of them in his 15-15 year. Seriously, find some reason to throw dirt on the winnest Coach in MSU]history. We won the west in football with 2 losses but you ain't complaining about that. Like I said Stan haters gonna hate--the best basketball played in MSU history and you seriously want to complain. Throw out the 15-15 year and he lost by 20 less than once a year. It is basketball, sometimes you get blown out, but not like was implied, like it happened all the time.

[tcdog70]

I'm not skipping it at all. I'm not holding bens first two years against him at all. this whole thread I've said his sample size is his past 3 years. I think that is fair, but we can use just his last 2 years or just his last 1 year if you'd like. Using any of those sample sizes, howland at MSU = Stans at MSU: solid but not great.

I think winning every road game in the SEC is pretty great. Winning the SEC title is pretty great. When Ben does that then I'll agree Ben =Stans.

[confucius say]

The real question here is will Ben, or whomever we hire, elevate our program to a sustained level of success above that of stans? Right now, 8 years later, the answer is no.

[Todd4State]

Sure, his last 5 years he lost 7 games by 20. 3 of them in his 15-15 year. Seriously, find some reason to throw dirt on the winnest Coach in MSU]history. We won the west in football with 2 losses but you ain't complaining about that. Like I said Stan haters gonna hate--the best basketball played in MSU history and you seriously want to complain. Throw out the 15-15 year and he lost by 20 less than once a year. It is basketball, sometimes you get blown out, but not like was implied, like it happened all the time.

People criticize Jackie's last three years at MSU all the time. And they should. Doesn't make him anything less than a great coach at MSU. It also doesn't mean we shouldn't have fired him in 2003 either.

Why do some MSU fans want to keep a relic of a coach whose times has clearly passed because they won the SEC at one point in time in their career? Do you really want things to get so bad with a legend because of what they did in the past and cause a massive rebuild that no one can succeed from? It's crazy.

And these coaches don't need to work 25 years in their life to be set. I could coach MSU for two years like Moorhead and pull a Tech and 11 and be set for life with what MSU pays. Moorhead made what? 5 million in two years? To tell us to kick rocks. Sign me up for that.

[Coach34]

Thats the thing- the Stands Cult always looks at him like its always 2004. They forget about all the drama and problems that had crept into the program. Had we kept him another year it wouldnt have been another step into beyond obvious as that 2013 would have been awful with Hood leaving and all the freshmen.

Nobody is saying Kermit is some awesome coach- but Kermit damn sure would have been a better hire than Ray- and that was obvious even in 2012. Thats where the problem lies- the terrible decision of hiring Ray after getting rid of Stands is what set the program back.

But Stands was solid and always has been. He's the same at W. Kentucky now. 3 seasons- no NCAA bids but solid teams. Was on the Bubble in Year 2.

[BB30]

Ben gets some leeway there sure. But he in 5 years is still not where stans was in four years. And I think the 1 extra year leeway is fair considering it's not like stans took over a world beater (comparing the roster of stans first team in 97-98 vs bens in 15-16 is not all that different, as Ben had an all sec post guy in ware, a Sr sword, a jr Ready, and q and Malik as freshman along with contributions like Fred Thomas and Holman).

And the eye test doesn't reveal a lot of difference between stans teams and Ben teams. Just feels like we blew up the program just to get what we basically already had.

Howland was building from the basement not the ground ha. Stans was already a part of the team when he was hired and had been there for some of our best seasons.

The two aren't comparable when it comes to the shape of the program they took over.

Stans had fan support from the get go. Howland has seen a mostly empty arena even with his better teams. Makes it awful hard to recruit when there were more people watching the players when they were in high school than college.

I think one of our biggest issues with consistently winning since Howland has been here is the fanbase not buying in and packing the Hump.

Look at what happened when Mullen got here and the fans got behind him and packed the stadium. We haven't done that with basketball and it has definitely hurt us I believe.

[maroonmania]

Thats the thing- the Stands Cult always looks at him like its always 2004. They forget about all the drama and problems that had crept into the program. Had we kept him another year it wouldnt have been another step into beyond obvious as that 2013 would have been awful with Hood leaving and all the freshmen.

Nobody is saying Kermit is some awesome coach- but Kermit damn sure would have been a better hire than Ray- and that was obvious even in 2012. Thats where the problem lies- the terrible decision of hiring Ray after getting rid of Stands is what set the program back.

But Stands was solid and always has been. He's the same at W. Kentucky now. 3 seasons- no NCAA bids but solid teams. Was on the Bubble in Year 2.

Yep, that's the thing. While Kermit Davis would definitely have not been any big time hire in 2012, in fact not even really a notable hire, if you just compare him directly against hiring Rick Ray then it should have been a Kermit hire all the way. Not only did Kermit have D1 HC experience at MTSU and much more experience overall but he was an MSU guy. Ray wasn't even the top assistant at Purdue at the time. Hiring Ray, even if it had worked, would still have been awful on paper. Of course there was always the story about us not pursuing Kermit because of some NCAA recruiting issue he had from way back in the 90s at TA&M but I don't know how much about that.

[MadDawg]

Tell me the difference between Stans last 4 years & Howland last 3. Here's a hint.... You can't.

Stans last 4 years got him fired. Howland's last three years have been his high water mark.

[confucius say]

Stans last 4 years got him fired. Howland's last three years have been his high water mark.

Yep. But to be fair, I think you do have to give Ben a little more time before you can evaluate him fully. Maybe he can break through and elevate our program. But at this point, Ben at MSU = Stans at MSU.