Why football and men's basketball success matters

[gtowndawg]

I've seen people say nobody cares about basketball anymore. If you want prestige for our beloved university than it's simple, we have to be successful in football (good shape overall) and men's basketball (it's a joke).

I know we love baseball, and that's fine, but here's the hard reality of things. Most sports fans could care less about college baseball and just slightly more care about women's basketball (on average). Football and men's basketball are king in the sports world and nothing else comes remotely close. If we want "State" to mean anything to the average sports fan around the country then you do what it takes to be highly competitive in those sports. Period. Anything else beyond that is just for yucks and giggles.

Most Recent TV Viewers/Ratings:

College football Championship Game: 25.5 million viewers
Men's College Basketball Championship Game: 16 million (13 million on average for final four games)
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Women's Basketball Championship Game: 2.8 million
College World Series Championship Series: 1.94 million

[Cooterpoot]

College basketball in the SEC is secondary. It's not very important.

[confucius say]

It's hard to put my finger on it precisely, but I think a lot of the reason people don't care about M basketball is the body language of a few. As a whole, I think we play with effort (although not always with purpose-there is a difference). I just get tired of watching the same bad, careless decisions over and over, which result in lots of turnovers, and the pouting/blaming of a few.

It's not everybody. Watching Molinar and DJ and adu is not that way. Woodard too and Tyson. But reggies body language sucks. And nicks is not much better (though his is usually aimed at himself instead of at his teammates like Reggie's).

Maybe I'm way off. I just know It is a frustrating product to watch.

[Pipedream]

College basketball in the SEC is secondary. It's not very important.

It may be secondary, but to call it "not very important" is a falsehood. A successful college basketball team (one that makes the NCAAT) can bring in 10X as much revenue as the most opulent college baseball program can. That's just the hard economic facts of the situation. State fans love college baseball. I get that, but in terms of monetary importance, it's at best 3rd. People don't realize that like 5, maybe 10 colleges actually make any profit off of college baseball. For most, it's a loss.

[Ari Gold]

College basketball in the SEC is secondary. It's not very important.

How stupid and incorrect...

[gtowndawg]

College basketball in the SEC is secondary. It's not very important.

I don't know what to say to this. It just baffles me.

[msstate7]

It's hard to put my finger on it precisely, but I think a lot of the reason people don't care about M basketball is the body language of a few. As a whole, I think we play with effort (although not always with purpose-there is a difference). I just get tired of watching the same bad, careless decisions over and over, which result in lots of turnovers, and the pouting/blaming of a few.

It's not everybody. Watching Molinar and DJ and adu is not that way. Woodard too and Tyson. But reggies body language sucks. And nicks is not much better (though his is usually aimed at himself instead of at his teammates like Reggie's).

Maybe I'm way off. I just know It is a frustrating product to watch.

I just think it's hard to be fully invested in 3 sports. Baseball will always be big for us. When football is a good/decent product, basketball will suffer. Again, I think

[gtowndawg]

It's hard to put my finger on it precisely, but I think a lot of the reason people don't care about M basketball is the body language of a few. As a whole, I think we play with effort (although not always with purpose-there is a difference). I just get tired of watching the same bad, careless decisions over and over, which result in lots of turnovers, and the pouting/blaming of a few.

It's not everybody. Watching Molinar and DJ and adu is not that way. Woodard too and Tyson. But reggies body language sucks. And nicks is not much better (though his is usually aimed at himself instead of at his teammates like Reggie's).

Maybe I'm way off. I just know It is a frustrating product to watch.

I totally agree with this. It's hard to watch, very disheartening most of the time. And because of that I think we have a lot of fans that just force themselves not to care. Out of sight out of mind. But that simply can't be our attitude if we really want "State" to be a national brand.

[BB30]

I wouldn't say our basketball program has been a complete joke the last two to three years. I would consider the product Rick Ray put on the floor a "complete joke". Yes, this years team has been dissappointing but we are about middle of the pack.

You say our football program is well respected and on good footing but then claim that our basketball program isn't when in both sports we have finished in the middle of the pack.

I just don't understand some of yall's perspective on the history of our MBB program. We have been middle of the pack for a long time excluding a few years here and there. And we have never done much in the NCAAT except for one season. Most of our teams that have made the Tourney have been bounced in the first or second round. Even some of our better teams have historically underperformed in the Tourney.

[msstate7]

I wouldn't say our basketball program has been a complete joke the last two to three years. I would consider the product Rick Ray put on the floor a "complete joke". Yes, this years team has been dissappointing but we are about middle of the pack.

You say our football program is well respected and on good footing but then claim that our basketball program isn't when in both sports we have finished in the middle of the pack.

I just don't understand some of yall's perspective on the history of our MBB program. We have been middle of the pack for a long time excluding a few years here and there. And we have never done much in the NCAAT except for one season. Most of our teams that have made the Tourney have been bounced in the first or second round. Even some of our better teams have historically underperformed in the Tourney.

The last 3 years, we're #6 in the sec in sec wins in basketball. And some wanna fire our coach. Just complete ignorance

[confucius say]

The last 3 years, we're #6 in the sec in sec wins in basketball. And some wanna fire our coach. Just complete ignorance

To be clear, I'm not saying fire howland. I just want more on court accountability.

[R2Dawg]

It's hard to put my finger on it precisely, but I think a lot of the reason people don't care about M basketball is the body language of a few. As a whole, I think we play with effort (although not always with purpose-there is a difference). I just get tired of watching the same bad, careless decisions over and over, which result in lots of turnovers, and the pouting/blaming of a few.

It's not everybody. Watching Molinar and DJ and adu is not that way. Woodard too and Tyson. But reggies body language sucks. And nicks is not much better (though his is usually aimed at himself instead of at his teammates like Reggie's).

Maybe I'm way off. I just know It is a frustrating product to watch.

Basketball is a funny game. We judge players a lot tougher than some sports because we see them so much easier being closer to the action. The same attitudes will not be seen in football due to headgear and distance. Distance in baseball. Officiating is also the same way to some degree.

The poor basketball fundamentals and lazy passes, decisions really grate on me. I think the players generally want to win. I am not sure about some player's body language. Reggie may be trying to be a leader at times getting on other players but I would like to see more do as I do than do as I say. I just don't think we are coached up enough. It seems like we are still doing the same mistakes from game one in game 27?

I agree DJ and Molinar play very sound fundamental basketball. I think Spoon is still struggling at point. May have been better to let Carter stay at point and Spoon at 2 as strange as that seems. Seemed to mess up our chemistry in 2 spots.

[msstate7]

To be clear, I'm not saying fire howland. I just want more on court accountability.

I won't no part of firing howland, but I would have no problem replacing assistants. In my dreams, we hire an assistant that has a strong zone defense background, and howland incorporates that zone in some.

[Commercecomet24]

It's hard to put my finger on it precisely, but I think a lot of the reason people don't care about M basketball is the body language of a few. As a whole, I think we play with effort (although not always with purpose-there is a difference). I just get tired of watching the same bad, careless decisions over and over, which result in lots of turnovers, and the pouting/blaming of a few.

It's not everybody. Watching Molinar and DJ and adu is not that way. Woodard too and Tyson. But reggies body language sucks. And nicks is not much better (though his is usually aimed at himself instead of at his teammates like Reggie's).

Maybe I'm way off. I just know It is a frustrating product to watch.

Very well said. This is where I'm at as well.

[Cooterpoot]

Yeah, you guys are right. AL is really suffering because their basketball isn't great. Same for UGA. Most arenas are half full on good days. KY cares. But that doesn't help their other programs out.
I'd love to see a great basketball program, but our final 4 season didn't change a damn thing for us either except for the shitty logo we use now.
And several of you think our program is already ok. You guys think Howland is moving us forward. He's not. So you're wrong about that too.

[msstate7]

Yeah, you guys are right. AL is really suffering because their basketball isn't great. Same for UGA. Most arenas are half full on good days. KY cares. But that doesn't help their other programs out.
I'd love to see a great basketball program, but our final 4 season didn't change a damn thing for us either except for the shitty logo we use now.
And several of you think our program is already ok. You guys think Howland is moving us forward. He's not. So you're wrong about that too.

2010-11: 17-13, no postseason
2012: 21-12, nit 1st round
2013: 10-22, no postseason
2014: 13-19, no postseason
2015: 14-17, no postseason
2016: 16-16, no postseason
2017: 25-12, nit semifinals
2018: 23-11, ncaa round of 64
2019: 17-10, TBD

No improvement at all.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

I just think it's hard to be fully invested in 3 sports. Baseball will always be big for us. When football is a good/decent product, basketball will suffer. Again, I think

We were good in all 3 in 2018 even despite the fans basically giving the basketball team the finger.

[msstate7]

We were good in all 3 in 2018 even despite the fans basically giving the basketball team the finger.

I mean in fan support, not on-field

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

I've seen people say no body cares about basketball anymore. If you want prestige for our beloved university than it's simple, we have to be successful in football (good shape overall) and men's basketball (it's a joke).

I know we love baseball, and that's fine, but here's the hard reality of things. Most sports fans could care less about college baseball and just slightly more care about women's basketball (on average). Football and men's basketball are king in the sports world and nothing else comes remotely close. If we want "State" to mean anything to the average sports fan around the country then you do what it takes to be highly competitive in those sports. Period. Anything else beyond that is just for yucks and giggles.

Most Recent TV Viewers/Ratings:

College football Championship Game: 25.5 million viewers
Men's College Basketball Championship Game: 16 million (13 million on average for final four games)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Women's Basketball Championship Game: 2.8 million
College World Series Championship Series: 1.94 million

Men's basketball isn't a joke.

[gtowndawg]

Yeah, you guys are right. AL is really suffering because their basketball isn't great. Same for UGA. Most arenas are half full on good days. KY cares. But that doesn't help their other programs out.
I'd love to see a great basketball program, but our final 4 season didn't change a damn thing for us either except for the shitty logo we use now.
And several of you think our program is already ok. You guys think Howland is moving us forward. He's not. So you're wrong about that too.

Alabama is a national brand because of football, same with Georgia. Kentucky is a national brand because of basketball, same for UNC and Duke. Nobody is a national brand because of baseball. Only two sports can get you in the upper echelon of people's minds and it's only football or basketball. I do agree Howland is not moving us forward. I've been pretty open on my stance about Howland.

[gtowndawg]

Men's basketball isn't a joke.

Joke may be harsh. But we can be much, much better than what we are getting. I have no doubt about that.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I wouldn't say our basketball program has been a complete joke the last two to three years. I would consider the product Rick Ray put on the floor a "complete joke". Yes, this years team has been dissappointing but we are about middle of the pack.

You say our football program is well respected and on good footing but then claim that our basketball program isn't when in both sports we have finished in the middle of the pack.

I just don't understand some of yall's perspective on the history of our MBB program. We have been middle of the pack for a long time excluding a few years here and there. And we have never done much in the NCAAT except for one season. Most of our teams that have made the Tourney have been bounced in the first or second round. Even some of our better teams have historically underperformed in the Tourney.

We got beat in Maui by an avg. of like 35 a game in Ray 1st year and Baxter Price HAD to play every game. That was a joke, and that's nothing against Baxter but he should've never seen the floor if we had any talent at all. An equivalent of that would be Mitchell Storm starting for us today. It's no doubt that we're underachieving this year, but to call it a joke is way off base.

[Maroonthirteen]

Nationally, college basketball is the 2nd biggest avenue for branding. Behind football obviously. I agree with that.

However State fans and most sec fans, basketball is the 3rd sport. Only to be followed if you are capable
Of beating UK and winning the conference. Is it the correct mindset? No. Is it true? Yes.

I'll never forget leaving the South Carolina football in 95, heading to the hump for midnight madness. This dude In head to toe maroon with cowbell In hand.... ask me why everyone was going To the hump. Well.... you know..... sweet 16 last year and the key players are back..... ����*♂️

[ShotgunDawg]

Alabama is a national brand because of football, same with Georgia. Kentucky is a national brand because of basketball, same for UNC and Duke. Nobody is a national brand because of baseball. Only two sports can get you in the upper echelon of people's minds and it's only football or basketball. I do agree Howland is not moving us forward. I've been pretty open on my stance about Howland.

This

And it?s why holding the M over S logo only for baseball is completely idiotic to me.

Additionally, I was listening to the Oregon St broadcast of the baseball games this weekend and they said someone in the administration said ?MSU is a baseball school? and Rosebowl repeats this regularly.

Why do we choosingly degrade football at MSU ?

Why do we choose to not accept that football is the sport that matters and go all on the stadium and logo to make sure it?s the best it can be?

Why?

[Coach34]

College basketball in the SEC is secondary. It's not very important.

SRO tickets for Auburn home basketball games are going for $200 a pop. It just gets to what teams are good and what not. It's easy to get football game tickets at some SEC schools as it is in basketball.

I still maintain that the basketball crowds arent coming back because of all the games being on TV now- plus the students losing prime seating. You've lost student support because of seating and people just arent willing to drive 90 minutes or more to home games when they can watch it on TV.

[BrunswickDawg]

Joke may be harsh. But we can be much, much better than what we are getting. I have no doubt about that.

This is where we get into very, very subjective territory. Howland has stabilized us to the point that we are back where we were under Stans and Williams - a consistent bubble team.
Since 1990-1 season, we are 220-220 in SEC play. That era also comprises the bulk of our NCAA appearances with 10; 2 SEC Titles (1991 & 2004); and 3 SECT wins that either cinched our post-season seed (1996, 2002) or made us an auto-qualifier (2009).
So over 30 years, we average an NCAA bid every 3 years - a pace Howland is just off of after a major rebuild.

Maybe because I was on campus for some bad basketball in '92. '93, & '94 and only got to see the first half of '95 before I graduated, I don't feel like we have some spectacular history to live up to. We are a decent SEC program, that with some luck and the right players can have brief periods of excellence. People blow off last year like it was nothing - and yet it was our first NCAA tourney in a decade. We still have a shot at making it this season - which I feel like I was saying at this point almost every season from 1995-2012.

[gtowndawg]

Nationally, college basketball is the 2nd biggest avenue for branding. Behind football obviously. I agree with that.

However State fans and most sec fans, basketball is the 3rd sport. Only to be followed if you are capable
Of beating UK and winning the conference. Is it the correct mindset? No. Is it true? Yes.

I'll never forget leaving the South Carolina football in 95, heading to the hump for midnight madness. This dude In head to toe maroon with cowbell In hand.... ask me why everyone was going To the hump. Well.... you know..... sweet 16 last year and the key players are back..... ����*♂️

It's hard to do a specific apple to apple comparison but clearly SEC basketball is still more watched than baseball. Case in point from last years SEC basketball tourney Sports Media Watch reported, "Saturday’s Tennessee-Kentucky SEC Tournament semifinal delivered a 2.1 rating and 3.29 million viewers on ESPN, up 77% in ratings and 80% in viewership from the same window last year (Tennessee-Arkansas: 1.15, 1.83M), and up 67% and 77% respectively from 2017 (Arkansas-Vanderbilt: 1.2, 1.85M)."

So random SEC semi final games (not involving Kentucky) in basketball from 2017 and 2018 had just as many viewers as the CHAMPIONSHIP series for ALL of college baseball.

Again, I'm just concerned our love for baseball (of which we have the exact same number of national championships as football and basketball) tends to cloud our judgement to a certain degree.

[PGHBulldogBG]

I don?t know the exact answer to our basketball support issues, but I believe the move of the student section and all games being on TV are probably two main factors like others have said. While we have underachieved this year, I think people had inflated expectations for this team after losing Q and Peters. Howland isn?t the best X and Os coach but he has us respectable again. Firing him would just cause a bigger disaster unless Cohen has some kind of behind the scenes John Beilein deal which I doubt is happening. We need to get behind the team because we don?t give the same home court advantage as many other SEC teams.

[AmiteDog]

The last 3 years, we're #6 in the sec in sec wins in basketball. And some wanna fire our coach. Just complete ignorance

And in those 3 years Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, Auburn, LSU, South Carolina, and Texas A&M have all made the Sweet 16 or better. We aren?t exactly making up any ground there.

[msstate7]

ETA... forget it, howland isn't getting fired

[MCsMGs]

This

And it?s why holding the M over S logo only for baseball is completely idiotic to me.

Additionally, I was listening to the Oregon St broadcast of the baseball games this weekend and they said someone in the administration said ?MSU is a baseball school? and Rosebowl repeats this regularly.

Why do we choosingly degrade football at MSU ?

Why do we choose to not accept that football is the sport that matters and go all on the stadium and logo to make sure it?s the best it can be?

Why?

Why?

For me, I choose to accept that football isn't all that matters because I am a basketball fan. YMMV

[maroonmania]

I just think it's hard to be fully invested in 3 sports. Baseball will always be big for us. When football is a good/decent product, basketball will suffer. Again, I think

The other thing is unless MSU becomes less interested in just pulling revenue from men's basketball and actually want fans to attend games there will never be the crowd support needed at men's games to create a big time atmosphere like there was 15 years ago. The reseating where students were put on one end behind a goal and dumping loyal, local fans for premium lower arena tickets to be purchased by big time donors, many of whom never plan to attend a game but just want the points for football, killed our basketball atmosphere just as much as us putting out bad teams did. That is why crowds haven't really come back full strength even with a much better product on the court the last few years. These days, if you don't have local fans vested in your program (like our women's team does) then you can't get the support needed game in and game out, especially in a remote location like Starkville. Very few fans are going to drive 2+ hours one way to see a basketball game starting at 8 pm on a Tuesday night (like tomorrow) and pay the cost to come when they can sit at home and watch in high def for free with no additional travel time investment. Things are just a lot different now with every game being televised. At this point, we would have to have a team challenging for an SEC title to get a packed arena for most games. Even then it would only be packed for weekend games, not midweek games.

[Todd4State]

It's hard to put my finger on it precisely, but I think a lot of the reason people don't care about M basketball is the body language of a few. As a whole, I think we play with effort (although not always with purpose-there is a difference). I just get tired of watching the same bad, careless decisions over and over, which result in lots of turnovers, and the pouting/blaming of a few.

It's not everybody. Watching Molinar and DJ and adu is not that way. Woodard too and Tyson. But reggies body language sucks. And nicks is not much better (though his is usually aimed at himself instead of at his teammates like Reggie's).

Maybe I'm way off. I just know It is a frustrating product to watch.

I think you are correct. Mississippi State fans/people have one basic fundamental expectation which is basically that all of our teams play hard. The sport doesn't matter. I've seen MSU fans complain about it in other sports in the past about football and baseball teams in other years when it was warranted. We don't expect to win every game even though we want to win every game- just go out and play your ass off every game.

Basketball as a sport though has become a lot about the individual like "Bron", "Kobe", "Harden", "Zion", "MJ", etc. so of course that's going to trickle down to the college level and players are going to try to act like their heroes. So I can understand it. But as far as Mississippi State fans go in general it's not going to translate in our individual situation.

[the10dobes]

I've seen people say nobody cares about basketball anymore. If you want prestige for our beloved university than it's simple, we have to be successful in football (good shape overall) and men's basketball (it's a joke).

I know we love baseball, and that's fine, but here's the hard reality of things. Most sports fans could care less about college baseball and just slightly more care about women's basketball (on average). Football and men's basketball are king in the sports world and nothing else comes remotely close. If we want "State" to mean anything to the average sports fan around the country then you do what it takes to be highly competitive in those sports. Period. Anything else beyond that is just for yucks


Most Recent TV Viewers/Ratings:

College football Championship Game: 25.5 million viewers
Men's College Basketball Championship Game: 16 million (13 million on average for final four games)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Women's Basketball Championship Game: 2.8 million
College World Series Championship Series: 1.94 million

Gtowndawg is correct, and viewership impacts revenue. To state otherwise is a false reality!

[ShotgunDawg]

Why?

For me, I choose to accept that football isn't all that matters because I am a basketball fan. YMMV

That's great you're a basketball fan. We need more of them.

But, even as a basketball fan, you have to admit that the brand of the school if mostly based on football & all things associated

[Pipedream]

That's great you're a basketball fan. We need more of them.

But, even as a basketball fan, you have to admit that the brand of the school if mostly based on football & all things associated

While I don't disagree with you, there's an argument to made about "brand exposure" that leans towards basketball, at least in the post season. Average 19/20 FBS Bowl game viewership was 8.5M people. Average 2019 NCAAT basketball game was 12M.

[Cooterpoot]

Yeah Villanova, Virginia, etc. have a great brand*
Even Duke, UNC, KY, & Kansas are only known for their basketball really. This branding talk is 90% football. The other sports split up the 10%. Give basketball 5% and baseball and women's sports the rest. Each school has their own "branding" niche. Ours is baseball behind football.

[1bigdawg]

Local attendance is critical for midweek games. I have often thought that we should have two sets of season tickets, one for weekend games and another, lower-cost one, for weekday games.

[Pipedream]

Yeah Villanova, Virginia, etc. have a great brand*
Even Duke, UNC, KY, & Kansas are only known for their basketball really. This branding talk is 90% football. The other sports split up the 10%. Give basketball 5% and baseball and women's sports the rest. Each school has their own "branding" niche. Ours is baseball behind football.

Those basketball brands you just listed off are more valuable than the MSU football brand. Look no further than their apparel deals and how much Nike/Adidas pay those coaches. It adds value to their company because of the team name. Football is a HUGE deal monetarily, but it isn't 90% if we are talking about an econ POV. Football is going to bring in about 55-65% of the budget, basketball about 10-15%, Baseball 5-7%, and all the other sports around 10%. So, yeah football is the biggest piece of the pie, but there are some big $ opportunities in other sports as well-mainly mens basketball.

[gtowndawg]

That's great you're a basketball fan. We need more of them.

But, even as a basketball fan, you have to admit that the brand of the school if mostly based on football & all things associated

Football is the king, there's no doubt there. But men's basketball is the prince. The data totally supports that conclusion no matter how it's sliced (viewers, revenue, etc.)