The next MBB HC?

[coastratdog]

I think Howland is done. Not because we lost to OM but our team just doesn't compete at the level our talent and resources are. We just don't play as a team. So who do we replace him with?

TJC

[msstate7]

I don't wanna fire howland. I feel like we've underachieved, but I'm smart enough to know howland is the reason we have a talented roster. Good luck recruiting to our dead, empty stadium without a coach that has a track record of coaching guys to the nba.

[HoopsDawg]

We aren't firing Howland.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

I don't wanna fire howland. I feel like we've underachieved, but I'm smart enough to know howland is the reason we have a talented roster. Good luck recruiting to our dead, empty stadium without a coach that has a track record of coaching guys to the nba.

I agree that recruiting would probably drop off without Howland. However, almost anybody would improve the pure coaching aspect.

I find it hard to believe that theres no G5 coach out there who couldn't get us to the tournament more than once in 3 years with 100% his roster (we made ot last year, will miss it this year, and will definately miss it next year with Perry and Woodard gone, and all this is after several years of Howland building his roster and culture)

Can we find this upgrade? I dont know. Its definately a risk, but 100% there are better total package coaches out there we could hire.

The other thing to consider is that under Howland we have basically zero chance of ever getting "hot" and making a Frank Martin SC run. Howland teams have literally NEVER even had 1 game where they played above their talent level, so theres zero potential for us to upset a better team in the tourney. A different coach (one who can improve our basketball IQ and make adjustments in game) would give us that potential.

Last note here: Howland was gifted Carter and Woodard because they were legacies, and Nick was half gifted because of Q. So it's not like were going to have teams of 2 5* and 3 4* going forward. That's not the true level of Howland recruiting

[msstate7]

I agree that recruiting would probably drop off without Howland. However, almost anybody would improve the pure coaching aspect.

I find it hard to believe that theres no G5 coach out there who couldn't get us to the tournament more than once in 3 years with 100% his roster (we made ot last year, will miss it this year, and will definately miss it next year with Perry and Woodard gone, and all this is after several years of Howland building his roster and culture)

Can we find this upgrade? I dont know. Its definately a risk, but 100% there are better total package coaches out there we could hire.

The other thing to consider is that under Howland we have basically zero chance of ever getting "hot" and making a Frank Martin SC run. Howland teams have literally NEVER even had 1 game where they played above their talent level, so theres zero potential for us to upset a better team in the tourney. A different coach (one who can improve our basketball IQ and make adjustments in game) would give us that potential.

Last note here: Howland was gifted Carter and Woodard because they were legacies, and Nick was half gifted because of Q. So it's not like were going to have teams of 2 5* and 3 4* going forward. That's not the true level of Howland recruiting

Carter doesn't appear to be a good gift right now. Two big strikes against howland right now are our guards are not that great and no depth in the post

[StarkVegasSteve]

My biggest strike on Howland is that this is the halfway point of Year 4 and we still don't look like we have any type of clue how to attack a zone. It infuriated me watching us struggle how to attack and average at best 1-3-1 trapping zone last night.

[ShotgunDawg]

I am frustrated like everyone else, but I don't think I'm anywhere near firing Howland.

He needs to recruit better shooters & guards. We say he's underachieving & he probably is to some degree, but every team is different & has their own issues.

I do wish he'd hire a "Joe Brady" type OC assistant, but I don't think firing him is the right option.

Again, if you replace Ole Miss with "Missouri" no one is saying to fire him this morning. They just aren't unless you were already calling for his firing prior to the game.

[ShotgunDawg]

My biggest strike on Howland is that this is the halfway point of Year 4 and we still don't look like we have any type of clue how to attack a zone. It infuriated me watching us struggle how to attack and average at best 1-3-1 trapping zone last night.

He really needs a Joe Brady OC IMO. That needs to be the change, not firing Howland

[smootness]

He needs to recruit better shooters & guards.

Like Tyson Carter?***

[BB30]

I agree that recruiting would probably drop off without Howland. However, almost anybody would improve the pure coaching aspect.

I find it hard to believe that theres no G5 coach out there who couldn't get us to the tournament more than once in 3 years with 100% his roster (we made ot last year, will miss it this year, and will definately miss it next year with Perry and Woodard gone, and all this is after several years of Howland building his roster and culture)

Can we find this upgrade? I dont know. Its definately a risk, but 100% there are better total package coaches out there we could hire.

The other thing to consider is that under Howland we have basically zero chance of ever getting "hot" and making a Frank Martin SC run. Howland teams have literally NEVER even had 1 game where they played above their talent level, so theres zero potential for us to upset a better team in the tourney. A different coach (one who can improve our basketball IQ and make adjustments in game) would give us that potential.

Last note here: Howland was gifted Carter and Woodard because they were legacies, and Nick was half gifted because of Q. So it's not like were going to have teams of 2 5* and 3 4* going forward. That's not the true level of Howland recruiting

Have you seen how Howland has recruited over his career as a coach? He's a terrific recruiter and absolutely is the reason we have the roster that we have. He wasn't gifted those guys because they were legacies. We don't get Woodard if Ray is still the coach and we don't get Perry if Ray is still the coach.

Our program was literally dead in the water and had been since the last year or two under Stansbury. There was a decade long drought in basketball. Howland dug us out of that and is just now really getting his guys in there. He deserves at a minimum one more year but I would give him at least two more.

Some of yall think we were an elite basketball program and we really weren't close to elite. I'm not one to settle but he's gotten the program back to ground level and I believe he is starting to build the program up now. Had the whole Nick suspension thing not happened and Nick had been able to play from the beginning of the season I think the record looks a bit different and I think we would have won at least 2-3 more games which takes you squarely off of the bubble.

Be patient.

[gtowndawg]

I'm done with Howland. 1 NCAA in 5 years (it will be 1 in 6 after next year) is pathetic. If we are ok with that than we really don't care about men's basketball. Personally, that's embarrassing to me.

[gtowndawg]

I agree that recruiting would probably drop off without Howland. However, almost anybody would improve the pure coaching aspect.

I find it hard to believe that theres no G5 coach out there who couldn't get us to the tournament more than once in 3 years with 100% his roster (we made ot last year, will miss it this year, and will definately miss it next year with Perry and Woodard gone, and all this is after several years of Howland building his roster and culture)

Can we find this upgrade? I dont know. Its definately a risk, but 100% there are better total package coaches out there we could hire.

The other thing to consider is that under Howland we have basically zero chance of ever getting "hot" and making a Frank Martin SC run. Howland teams have literally NEVER even had 1 game where they played above their talent level, so theres zero potential for us to upset a better team in the tourney. A different coach (one who can improve our basketball IQ and make adjustments in game) would give us that potential.

Last note here: Howland was gifted Carter and Woodard because they were legacies, and Nick was half gifted because of Q. So it's not like were going to have teams of 2 5* and 3 4* going forward. That's not the true level of Howland recruiting

Totally agree. Keeping Howland is just lazy.

[msstate7]

I'm done with Howland. 1 NCAA in 5 years (it will be 1 in 6 after next year) is pathetic. If we are ok with that than we really don't care about men's basketball. Personally, that's embarrassing to me.

He took over a program at a pathetic level. I'd say he's 1 out of 2 right now with this season swinging it one way or the other.

[Liverpooldawg]

Some day some of y'all are finally going to realize what Richard Williams and, yes, Rick Stansbury accomplished here. Some of us knew all along.

[CadaverDawg]

He needs to hire an offensive version of Stansbury, like Williams did. Shotgun makes it sound easy to find a Joe Brady type, but it's not that easy or LSU wouldn't have waited 20 years to do it. But just a guy from the lower divisions that is an X's and O's guy that can run the offense. Let Howland recruit and coach D and rebounding, and hire someone to coach O. Otherwise, make a change....but change in hoops scares me, bc even the sure fire Shaka Smart's of the world aren't guaranteed...ask Texas.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Have you seen how Howland has recruited over his career as a coach? He's a terrific recruiter and absolutely is the reason we have the roster that we have. He wasn't gifted those guys because they were legacies. We don't get Woodard if Ray is still the coach and we don't get Perry if Ray is still the coach.

Our program was literally dead in the water and had been since the last year or two under Stansbury. There was a decade long drought in basketball. Howland dug us out of that and is just now really getting his guys in there. He deserves at a minimum one more year but I would give him at least two more.

Some of yall think we were an elite basketball program and we really weren't close to elite. I'm not one to settle but he's gotten the program back to ground level and I believe he is starting to build the program up now. Had the whole Nick suspension thing not happened and Nick had been able to play from the beginning of the season I think the record looks a bit different and I think we would have won at least 2-3 more games which takes you squarely off of the bubble.

Be patient.

You're comparing him to Ray. Obviously hes better than the worst BB coach in our history. Being better than Ray doesnt = we should keep you, though.

Moreover, Howland doesnt "deserve" anything. Hes paid 2M a year to coach us, hes not doing us some favor we should reward with extra time. We should do what's best for our program going forward, let's not make a classic mistake of keeping a coach past his prime because he's "earned it". It cost FSU, PSU, and KState... let's not let it cost us

[Cowbell]

He has an amazing ability to recruit. But I am at the point that I would rather see us have less talent that plays with effort atleast 90% of the time and plays smart basketball. This is as good as it gets with Howland, in my opinion. I would rather us take the gamble and see if we can get someone with more upside potential. We don't have anything to lose. We are a perennial bubble team at best with Howland.

[Dawgology]

This year we signed the 54th ranked class. Last year we signed the 60th ranked class. Year before that 16th (with 2 legacy players - not a hard sell). Year before that 65th ranked. Year before that 10th (signed 7 and two are still on the team. We have no verbals for anyone for 2021 yet.

Howland being a great recruiter is a myth. His class average is in the 40's and that is including a stacked class due to 7 open scholarships and a class that he was gifted two legacy players. I'm just NOT seeing what you all are seeing. And don't start with "well in those down years he didn't have any scholarships". That just proves that he can't manage his scholarships the same way he can't manage his roster in games.

[timotheus]

Like Tyson Carter?***

Proper ball movement opens up the outside shot. rainbow lob passes after one is double teamed does not. I wish The staff knew this and had a day or so to prepare for a zone defense. Maybe this is a new phenomenon?

[Leeshouldveflanked]

I think the people who think Howland is a great recruiter are just comparing him to Rick Ray...

[LC Dawg]

If you fire Howland you may as well shut down the program. You can't compare it to football because our football job is much more attractive than our basketball job.
You would have a program with very little history, poor crowd support, located in a rural area, plays in a football conference, and a coach with multiple Final Fours can't win there. I know a lot of you will disagree with this but it is reality. And before someone mentions the Hump during the Stans years you need to understand that those crowds don't mean any more than crowds for Babe McCarthy's teams right now and our current team and last years team are playing at about an average Stansbury team level. You have to take off the maroon glasses and see it for what it really is.
I think Coach Howland staying is our best chance at success. He definitely knows basketball but I think he has trouble communicating it to today's players. I would love to see him hire some assistants that he can teach and in the process they can teach and coach the players better.

[msstate7]

If you fire Howland you may as well shut down the program. You can't compare it to football because our football job is much more attractive than our basketball job.
You would have a program with very little history, poor crowd support, located in a rural area, plays in a football conference, and a coach with multiple Final Fours can't win there. I know a lot of you will disagree with this but it is reality. And before someone mentions the Hump during the Stans years you need to understand that those crowds don't mean any more than crowds for Babe McCarthy's teams right now and our current team and last years team are playing at about an average Stansbury team level. You have to take off the maroon glasses and see it for what it really is.
I think Coach Howland staying is our best chance at success. He definitely knows basketball but I think he has trouble communicating it to today's players. I would love to see him hire some assistants that he can teach and in the process they can teach and coach the players better.

^^^ ding, ding

[MadDawg]

Some day some of y'all are finally going to realize what Richard Williams and, yes, Rick Stansbury accomplished here. Some of us knew all along.

Yep

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

If you fire Howland you may as well shut down the program. You can't compare it to football because our football job is much more attractive than our basketball job.
You would have a program with very little history, poor crowd support, located in a rural area, plays in a football conference, and a coach with multiple Final Fours can't win there. I know a lot of you will disagree with this but it is reality. And before someone mentions the Hump during the Stans years you need to understand that those crowds don't mean any more than crowds for Babe McCarthy's teams right now and our current team and last years team are playing at about an average Stansbury team level. You have to take off the maroon glasses and see it for what it really is.
I think Coach Howland staying is our best chance at success. He definitely knows basketball but I think he has trouble communicating it to today's players. I would love to see him hire some assistants that he can teach and in the process they can teach and coach the players better.

Look I'm not saying firing Howland wouldnt be extremely risky or that keeping him isnt what's best.

But 100% there are better coaches out there that would take our job. Finding one is the hard part. But we can upgrade.

Look, or basketball team is mediocre. Not bad, respectable, but mediocre. If that's your goal then yes keep Howland. If we want to become a top 4 team in the conference we need to move on. Its basically that simple.

[Apoplectic]

I think Howland is done. Not because we lost to OM but our team just doesn't compete at the level our talent and resources are. We just don't play as a team. So who do we replace him with?

TJC

this would be cutcliffe levl firing stupidity

[maroonmania]

Carter doesn't appear to be a good gift right now. Two big strikes against howland right now are our guards are not that great and no depth in the post

Huge strike in that Carter and NWeatherspoon have not really progressed as players as you would have hoped. And probably our 2 best recruits and most talented players under Howland are Perry and Woodard. Both are legacies so how much credit does Howland get for that? Yes, a different coach might not have gotten them even though they were legacies but I don't see Howland bringing in a lot of top end recruits that don't already have MSU connections. We can keep Howland or not, I don't care, but Howland is WAY on the downhill side of his coaching career and is not a long term solution regardless. Our talent level will likely fall dramatically next year if Perry and Woodard both go the NBA route. Seriously, if Howland can't get us to the NCAA tourney with this group I don't see him ever getting us there again. He is a very weak coach on the offensive side of the ball.

[msstate7]

Huge strike in that Carter and NWeatherspoon have not really progressed as players as you would have hoped. And probably our 2 best recruits and most talented players under Howland are Perry and Woodard. Both are legacies so how much credit does Howland get for that? Yes, a different coach might not have gotten them even though they were legacies but I don't see Howland bringing in a lot of top end recruits that don't already have MSU connections. We can keep Howland or not, I don't care, but Howland is WAY on the downhill side of his coaching career and is not a long term solution regardless. Our talent level will likely fall dramatically next year if Perry and Woodard both go the NBA route. Seriously, if Howland can't get us to the NCAA tourney with this group I don't see him ever getting us there again. He is a very weak coach on the offensive side of the ball.

We're bringing in a borderline 5-star guard this year, and I think Molinar and Stewart are gonna be good. I'm worried about the 4-spot, but I think guard play could go to a real strength next year

[HoopsDawg]

Huge strike in that Carter and NWeatherspoon have not really progressed as players as you would have hoped. And probably our 2 best recruits and most talented players under Howland are Perry and Woodard. Both are legacies so how much credit does Howland get for that? Yes, a different coach might not have gotten them even though they were legacies but I don't see Howland bringing in a lot of top end recruits that don't already have MSU connections. We can keep Howland or not, I don't care, but Howland is WAY on the downhill side of his coaching career and is not a long term solution regardless. Our talent level will likely fall dramatically next year if Perry and Woodard both go the NBA route. Seriously, if Howland can't get us to the NCAA tourney with this group I don't see him ever getting us there again. He is a very weak coach on the offensive side of the ball.

Someone should have changed Nick's shooting stroke 10 years ago, but someone on our staff should have changed it when he first came in. If Lonzo Ball can do it, so can Nick. You have to have good fundamentals to be a good shooter.

[msugolf]

We're bringing in a borderline 5-star guard this year, and I think Molinar and Stewart are gonna be good. I'm worried about the 4-spot, but I think guard play could go to a real strength next year

He's not a shooter though. just a freakishly athletic point guard (really more of a combo). Not known as a high scorer. Gets a lot of his points by driving to the basket and within 10' of goal.

We really need 2 guys at minimum who can just fill it up from deep. We don't even have 1. And if don't address it then we won't stand a chance next year.

[AROB44]

Look I'm not saying firing Howland wouldnt be extremely risky or that keeping him isnt what's best.

But 100% there are better coaches out there that would take our job. Finding one is the hard part. But we can upgrade.

Look, or basketball team is mediocre. Not bad, respectable, but mediocre. If that's your goal then yes keep Howland. If we want to become a top 4 team in the conference we need to move on. Its basically that simple.

I think I heard the same thing when Stans was let go. Ended up with RIck Ray. Howland is the second best coach we ever had (behind only Babe).

[msstate7]

He's not a shooter though. just a freakishly athletic point guard (really more of a combo). Not known as a high scorer. Gets a lot of his points by driving to the basket and within 10' of goal.

We really need 2 guys at minimum who can just fill it up from deep. We don't even have 1. And if don't address it then we won't stand a chance next year.

Stewart: 36% (21/58)
Woodard: 46% (25/54)
Molinar: 36% (12/33)

2 of those are freshmen and will most likely get better shooting. Woodard will probably go down.

[smootness]

Stewart: 36% (21/58)
Woodard: 46% (25/54)
Molinar: 36% (12/33)

2 of those are freshmen and will most likely get better shooting. Woodard will probably go down.

We'll see about that. Hasn't really worked out like that for a lot of our guys recently.

[msu15]

My biggest strike on Howland is that this is the halfway point of Year 4 and we still don't look like we have any type of clue how to attack a zone. It infuriated me watching us struggle how to attack and average at best 1-3-1 trapping zone last night.
This is year 5 brother

[msstate7]

We'll see about that. Hasn't really worked out like that for a lot of our guys recently.

It did for Woodard and Reggie so I'm keeping fingers crossed.

[msugolf]

Stewart: 36% (21/58)
Woodard: 46% (25/54)
Molinar: 36% (12/33)

2 of those are freshmen and will most likely get better shooting. Woodard will probably go down.

We don't run our offense through our guards though. This is as good a year as we'll have to get open looks for guards on the outside due to all of the attention on Perry. Next year teams will be able to play us straight up on defense. I'll bet you a pounding sand nickel that those percentages aren't the true representation of the baseline going forward.

Also, Molinar hasn't even shot enough to register on the sec rankings and the other 2 are near the bottom in attempts. Like I said, we don't have any shooters.

[msugolf]

Stewart: 36% (21/58)
Woodard: 46% (25/54)
Molinar: 36% (12/33)

2 of those are freshmen and will most likely get better shooting. Woodard will probably go down.

[QUOTE=AROB44;1231308]I think I heard the same thing when Stans was let go. Ended up with RIck Ray. Howland is the second best coach we ever had (behind only Babe).[/r]

Because he went to final fours at UCLA with future NBA all stars?

I guess using the same analogy, LSU won't ever be able to get a coach better than Ed Orgeron. I mean he won a national championship so he's gotta be the greatest.

[msugolf]

I think I heard the same thing when Stans was let go. Ended up with RIck Ray. Howland is the second best coach we ever had (behind only Babe).

Because he went to final fours at UCLA with future NBA all stars?

I guess using the same analogy, LSU won't ever be able to get a coach better than Ed Orgeron. I mean he won a national championship so he's gotta be the greatest.

[gtowndawg]

this would be cutcliffe levl firing stupidity

Totally ridiculous.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

I think I heard the same thing when Stans was let go. Ended up with RIck Ray. Howland is the second best coach we ever had (behind only Babe).

So Rick Ray being a god awful hire means there was no way we could upgrade Howland? What?

Of course youd have to nail the hire. That's the risk involved in moving on from any mediocre coach- that your AD hires a really bad one.

Doesnt change that there are better coaches out there we could hire if we wanted too.

[gtowndawg]

I think I heard the same thing when Stans was let go. Ended up with RIck Ray. Howland is the second best coach we ever had (behind only Babe).

Again, apples and oranges. I've been hard on Cohen at times but the man has earned the opportunity to go out and find a coach that produces results for basketball. Either we are good with being mediocre (I'm not) or we think we can do better than one NCAA tournament every 6 seasons (personally, I fall into the "we can do better than this garbage" category).

[gtowndawg]

This year we signed the 54th ranked class. Last year we signed the 60th ranked class. Year before that 16th (with 2 legacy players - not a hard sell). Year before that 65th ranked. Year before that 10th (signed 7 and two are still on the team. We have no verbals for anyone for 2021 yet.

Howland being a great recruiter is a myth. His class average is in the 40's and that is including a stacked class due to 7 open scholarships and a class that he was gifted two legacy players. I'm just NOT seeing what you all are seeing. And don't start with "well in those down years he didn't have any scholarships". That just proves that he can't manage his scholarships the same way he can't manage his roster in games.

Thank you! If I hear great recruiter one more time I'm jumping out the window. I honestly think this is the problem, people pay so little attention to basketball now, nobody actually bothers to check the facts.

[MoreCowbell]

I am fine with Howland staying if changes are made in the off season. Bring in our basketball version of Joe Brady. Howland can be the face and the recruiter but we need an Xs and Os assistant to come in and revamp our style of play.

[basedog]

Funny reading about Howland and our program. Not sure most understand about Sec basketball and of course MSU basketball. Not sure we will get a Coach doing any better, just go look at our background and other than about a dozen years we have been below average most of the time. Folks want be knocking down our door to be our Coach. As a whole, Sec sucks in basketball, attendance overall is getting worse not better. Yes a few team other than Kentucky will be decent but overall not consistent. Too many programs that aren?t in the power 5 conferences care way more with basketball. It?s just what it is, we can agree all day about BH staying or being fired but he has made our program better not worse.
Lastly, I think he will retire, I also think he has reached his or our peak.
11 NCAA appearances is it folks, let that sink in. Just saying.

[TheLostDawg]

What needs to happen after this year.
1 Howland is retained but no extension to contract or worded where it would be more like a two year buy out next year. The second way would look better for recruiting purposes.
2 major staff change. Get coaches and recruiters. This staff isn't getting it done. No excuse for the record with this teams talent and to look like we have. It's looking like a Moorhead team at times. If you go to games and watch time out, there is another coach calling plays. That's fine but seems like we need an upgrade in whoever is in charge. On the recruiting in, until we start making it to the tournament it's going to continue to be hard to recruit. No fans are going to want to go to men's games. Nothing to be excited about. That is a drawback to recruits.

Let's give Howland the chance we were going to give Moorhead. The difference is the football program was about to go downhill. Basketball has just leveled off. We can risk a year to see if staff changes pay off in my opinion.

[timotheus]

Let coach next year without Perry. Talk about a team struggling to play .500 ball

[gtowndawg]

And to be clear, I'm not trying to be hard headed for the sake of argument but personally (and I know this is blasphemy practically) but I just don't care about women's basketball or even baseball. I know I'm in the minority but Football and Basketball are my sports and it pains me to see us struggle in men's basketball.

[basedog]

And to be clear, I'm not trying to be hard headed for the sake of argument but personally (and I know this is blasphemy practically) but I just don't care about women's basketball or even baseball. I know I'm in the minority but Football and Basketball are my sports and it pains me to see us struggle in men's basketball.

Well your pain has a long history of hurting, basketball like I stated has not been good overall. Football has been upgraded since JWS took over years back. Now days winning isn't good enough, we aren't Ky good in basketball nor Bama good in football, those are just facts and I didn't have to look them up.
I fell in love with Baseball while I attended Msu, it is the one sport we will always be good.

[msstate7]

Let coach next year without Perry. Talk about a team struggling to play .500 ball

Many said the same thing about this year after lost 3 starters with one of them a 1st team all sec player

[timotheus]

This team has about equal talent to the 96 team but plays like a juco team. This isn't a talent or player issue. Would Nick play better if Pearl or Frank Martin was his HC? The answer is yes or he'd be sitting quietly on the bench.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

Yep

Richard Williams also wasn't a great coach like some on this board make him out to be. I am appreciative of his time here, and will always remember the run we had in both 95 and 96, but some people act like the guy was Dean Smith. He made 3 NCAA tournaments in 12 years. Also, lost in the first round in 1991 season after winning the SEC outright. He also only had 6 total winning seasons and 2 of those were 16-14 and 15-13.

We should be nowhere close to firing Howland. We are respectable, and he brought us back from the dead. The loss last night was the worst of the season, and I am not happy about it like the rest of our fanbase, but Shotgun is right. If we lose that game to Tennessee instead of OM there isn't near the outrage. All of you need to take a deep breath and let's see how the season plays out.

[BiscuitEater]

I think Howland is done.

Are you a Coach34 alter? Seriously, that's the course we took and ended up with Rick Ray.

[msstate7]

This team has about equal talent to the 96 team but plays like a juco team. This isn't a talent or player issue. Would Nick play better if Pearl or Frank Martin was his HC? The answer is yes or he'd be sitting quietly on the bench.

Wut? 96 had a lottery pick and another 1st rounder.

[msugolf]

Are you a Coach34 alter? Seriously, that's the course we took and ended up with Rick Ray.

Man Rick Ray has some of y'all scared out of your wits. Once again, we had several other "better" options who were interested in the job but our AD decided to go rogue, went nuts and hired the equivalent of a volunteer upwards coach. You people need to forget about Rick Ray being the norm for hires.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

Wut? 96 had a lottery pick and another 1st rounder.

A lottery pick in Dampier (7 Footer) another top 20 with Dontae Jones, and arguably the best 4 year player in our recent history Darryl Wilson.

We possibly have 1 late first rounder in Perry on this team.

[timotheus]

Then I don't want to hear any more talk of Woodard or Spoon playing at the next level. Sounds like the myth of the great recruiter might have just been unearthed. This team could make a run to win the NIT if they were so inclined, motivated and coached. Oh well

[gtowndawg]

Well your pain has a long history of hurting, basketball like I stated has not been good overall. Football has been upgraded since JWS took over years back. Now days winning isn't good enough, we aren't Ky good in basketball nor Bama good in football, those are just facts and I didn't have to look them up.
I fell in love with Baseball while I attended Msu, it is the one sport we will always be good.

True but conversely I attended in the mid 90's when basketball was darn near king on that campus. Getting a ticket to SEC games was more important than going to class. We were one of the top SEC teams for nearly 15 years. We have history, it can be done.

[gtowndawg]

Richard Williams also wasn't a great coach like some on this board make him out to be. I am appreciative of his time here, and will always remember the run we had in both 95 and 96, but some people act like the guy was Dean Smith. He made 3 NCAA tournaments in 12 years. Also, lost in the first round in 1991 season after winning the SEC outright. He also only had 6 total winning seasons and 2 of those were 16-14 and 15-13.

We should be nowhere close to firing Howland. We are respectable, and he brought us back from the dead. The loss last night was the worst of the season, and I am not happy about it like the rest of our fanbase, but Shotgun is right. If we lose that game to Tennessee instead of OM there isn't near the outrage. All of you need to take a deep breath and let's see how the season plays out.

To be fair, based on current trajectory that would beat Howland. After next season Howland will go 1 tourney in 6 seasons. Just extrapolating that out it's about the same as Williams, maybe worse (and that's not considering Williams had 2 sweet 16's and a final four). I agree, Williams also had down years, no doubt, but he had some big ones as well. So far we've gotten nothing from Howland (at $2million per!)

[msstate7]

Then I don't want to hear any more talk of Woodard or Spoon playing at the next level. Sounds like the myth of the great recruiter might have just been unearthed. This team could make a run to win the NIT if they were so inclined, motivated and coached. Oh well

There's only 30 1st round picks and 346 div 1 teams... that's not even taking into account all the foreign players that will be drafted. Point is that it is hard as heck to get a roster of NBA players. I have no huge problems with howland's recruiting other than I wish he had a more true pt guard on this team.

[basedog]

True but conversely I attended in the mid 90's when basketball was darn near king on that campus. Getting a ticket to SEC games was more important than going to class. We were one of the top SEC teams for nearly 15 years. We have history, it can be done.

Describe history? Yes to 95 and 96, other than those two years you have to go back to the Babe years. He was by far our best basketball coach. I feel your hurt.

[PGHBulldogBG]

We had the chance to hire Kermit when we hired Ray and didn?t. That was just very confusing. I will admit at the time Kermit didn?t have the same accomplishments he had in the following years, but if we were so desperate that we hire Ray I don?t understand not hiring Kermit.

[Political Hack]

It is not time to fire Howland yet.

[Coach34]

Howland recruits pretty well- but his offensive coaching is severely lacking. We looked lost against their zone trap last night.

This team should be an NCAA Tourney team. If not- Howland needs to be on the hotseat in 2021.

Nick is a good college PG- but he isnt "great"
Carter is a bench player that is streaky
Molinar will be a player but is a Freshman
Stewart gets better and better
Woodard needs to be more greedy and try to take over the team more. He just goes with the flow when he should attack more
Perry is a big talent but he needs another year of college. He is still soft at times and doesnt attack when he needs to enough. Too much AAU in him
Ado is a demon on D but still a project offensively. He needs to be a 10 point per night guy but he just isnt.

We should be better than we are- and thats on Howland. If we miss the NCAA's this year- 2021 Howland should be coaching for his job

[maroonmania]

Thank you! If I hear great recruiter one more time I'm jumping out the window. I honestly think this is the problem, people pay so little attention to basketball now, nobody actually bothers to check the facts.

I totally agree. Howland's best players are ALL guys that had DEEP connections to MSU basketball. And I'm talking legacies (Perry, Woodard, Carter) and a guy whose brother was already on the team (Weatherspoon). And then he lost Garrison Brooks after we had him signed because of a scorned Mother. Where are the great recruits for Howland that he actually had to convince to come to MSU just so they could play for him? They certainly aren't on this team. Besides the guys I listed all we have are role players. Legacies are used up at this point, no more of those available coming up to save the recruiting class.

[BiscuitEater]

Once again, we had several other "better" options who were interested in the job but our AD decided to go rogue, went nuts and hired the equivalent of a volunteer upwards coach.

Same Coach34 BS we heard back then.

NAME the "better" options! Oh yea, they WERE'NT any.

[Joebob]

People have forgotten how good a coach Ron Greene was in ‘77 - ‘78. Unfortunately he was only here for one year. Definitely should have gotten a tourney invite that year, but don’t get me started on that.

As for Howland, I’m so done with him I’m not even going to comment. I suspected in year one he wasn’t going to be the guy, and was sure of it by year two. I can spot a good coach a mile away, and Howland ain’t it.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Same Coach34 BS we heard back then.

NAME the "better" options! Oh yea, they WERE'NT any.

This is such an unbelievably ignorant statement to make.

Of course there were better options. We just made a horrible hire instead of one of them. There's over 300 college BB coaches out there, only about 60-70 max are at places we can't poach them from. Of course there was a great coach among the rest, we just failed to get him.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

To be fair, based on current trajectory that would beat Howland. After next season Howland will go 1 tourney in 6 seasons. Just extrapolating that out it's about the same as Williams, maybe worse (and that's not considering Williams had 2 sweet 16's and a final four). I agree, Williams also had down years, no doubt, but he had some big ones as well. So far we've gotten nothing from Howland (at $2million per!)

Why do people act like the coaching salaries are coming out of their own pocket? Who cares if it's 2 million a year. It costs you exactly nothing.

You and I actually think alike about a few things, but I don't think it is near time to fire Howland. This team has disappointed some, but I am just not on board with a lot of others on this board with how talented we are. Our depth lacks a lot. When either Ado or Perry gets in foul trouble we are pretty much doomed. We play a 7 man rotation with no one who can give our bigs adequate minutes.

[Coach34]

Same Coach34 BS we heard back then.

NAME the "better" options! Oh yea, they WERE'NT any.

The HC at OM currently would have crawled to Starkville for the job- but we hired Rick Ray. He wasnt the only one. We eliminated alot of coaches because Loafers and our President wanted a break from the AAU buy a player circuit. They learned you cant survive in college basketball with that philosophy. There is your better option so stfu and let the adults handle this convo

[Reunion Dog]

It's not confusing... Bailey Howell didnt5 want Kermit here.. so he told his goofball loser son-in-law not to hire him.

[Cowbell]

Why do people act like the coaching salaries are coming out of their own pocket? Who cares if it's 2 million a year. It costs you exactly nothing.

You and I actually think alike about a few things, but I don't think it is near time to fire Howland. This team has disappointed some, but I am just not on board with a lot of others on this board with how talented we are. Our depth lacks a lot. When either Ado or Perry gets in foul trouble we are pretty much doomed. We play a 7 man rotation with no one who can give our bigs adequate minutes.

You can talk about depth and talent all you want, but Howland-coached teams have never played smart, physical, disciplined, or with effort from start to finish. I have seen many high school teams better coached night-in and night-out. His teams will never live up to the hype unless he makes major changes.

[MarketingBully]

If you fire Howland you may as well shut down the program. You can't compare it to football because our football job is much more attractive than our basketball job.
You would have a program with very little history, poor crowd support, located in a rural area, plays in a football conference, and a coach with multiple Final Fours can't win there. I know a lot of you will disagree with this but it is reality. And before someone mentions the Hump during the Stans years you need to understand that those crowds don't mean any more than crowds for Babe McCarthy's teams right now and our current team and last years team are playing at about an average Stansbury team level. You have to take off the maroon glasses and see it for what it really is.
I think Coach Howland staying is our best chance at success. He definitely knows basketball but I think he has trouble communicating it to today's players. I would love to see him hire some assistants that he can teach and in the process they can teach and coach the players better.

You could say the same thing about Auburn before Pearl got there and that job was probably the worst in the SEC. How bad was our women?s program before Schaefer took it over? Much much worse then our men?s team. It?s really all relative. Get the right guy in here and we will be in great shape. I?d go after Chris Jans if we went after a new coach. I think he?s a rising star and is a great coach.

[MarketingBully]

Howland recruits pretty well- but his offensive coaching is severely lacking. We looked lost against their zone trap last night.

This team should be an NCAA Tourney team. If not- Howland needs to be on the hotseat in 2021.

Nick is a good college PG- but he isnt "great"
Carter is a bench player that is streaky
Molinar will be a player but is a Freshman
Stewart gets better and better
Woodard needs to be more greedy and try to take over the team more. He just goes with the flow when he should attack more
Perry is a big talent but he needs another year of college. He is still soft at times and doesnt attack when he needs to enough. Too much AAU in him
Ado is a demon on D but still a project offensively. He needs to be a 10 point per night guy but he just isnt.

We should be better than we are- and thats on Howland. If we miss the NCAA's this year- 2021 Howland should be coaching for his job

We have players on the bench that Howland doesn?t play that could help this team out like King and he should give Molinar more minutes. King is a Ravern Johnson type player who can shoot the three and could give us a nice spark off the bench. Howland?s rotation and his inability to develop bench depth is criminal. We have too much talent on this roster for him to basically just use a 6 man rotation. Dumb as shit.

[PGHBulldogBG]

It seems a bit of an over react to say fire Howland. He has done some good things for the program and his recruiting has been well above expectations. I get there were some connections that helped, but he got Newman which essentially got us Q most likely and then Nick. Carter probably would?ve came no matter what but not sure about Perry. If I recall he was originally committed to Ark. Regardless, if this team doesn?t make the NCAA then Howland should be coaching for his job next year. He?s got time to turn this around but can only afford one more loss and must make at least semis of SEC tournament. That loss also can?t be @ark got to win that.

[smootness]

It seems a bit of an over react to say fire Howland. He has done some good things for the program and his recruiting has been well above expectations. I get there were some connections that helped, but he got Newman which essentially got us Q most likely and then Nick. Carter probably would?ve came no matter what but not sure about Perry. If I recall he was originally committed to Ark. Regardless, if this team doesn?t make the NCAA then Howland should be coaching for his job next year. He?s got time to turn this around but can only afford one more loss and must make at least semis of SEC tournament. That loss also can?t be @ark got to win that.

Q had signed 5 months before Newman committed to State. One had nothing to do with the other.

[Dawgology]

Why do we always have fans that say "we can't do better than (fill in current coach) due to our history". This is such a loser mentality. I mean, if you never expect to be better then you will never actually be better. You set your own standards personally. An athletic organization or program has to set their own standards as well. If administration believes that a specific program will only be as good as making the tournament every 5-6 years and bump out in the first round then that is probably what they will achieve.

It is such a strange mentality for a fan. It makes me wonder why someone would even watch sports if they just expect to be annual losers. It makes me realize why certain programs seem to excel at everything. Their fans are bought in and they hold their administration to that standard which forces excellence.

[msstate7]

Sec records last 3 seasons:
Kentucky 34-13
Tenn 34-13
LSU 33-14
Auburn 33-14
Florida 27-20
State 25-22
South Carolina 25-22

So we're tied for 6th in the sec in wins over the last 3 years, but we feel we need to fire howland. I think it's ridiculous considering we (fans) give this basketball program 0 support. Someone compare the attendance figures for the above 7 teams

[gtowndawg]

Why do we always have fans that say "we can't do better than (fill in current coach) due to our history". This is such a loser mentality. I mean, if you never expect to be better then you will never actually be better. You set your own standards personally. An athletic organization or program has to set their own standards as well. If administration believes that a specific program will only be as good as making the tournament every 5-6 years and bump out in the first round then that is probably what they will achieve.

It is such a strange mentality for a fan. It makes me wonder why someone would even watch sports if they just expect to be annual losers. It makes me realize why certain programs seem to excel at everything. Their fans are bought in and they hold their administration to that standard which forces excellence.

I had this conversation with multiple State friends last night via group text. It baffles all of us. Joe was average in football, squandered talent, had average fan support that would be terrible support next year and yet we all found it unacceptable. But in basketball it's totally acceptable (to many apparently). It's a strange Mississippi State mentality.

[msstate7]

I had this conversation with multiple State friends last night via group text. It baffles all of us. Joe was average in football, squandered talent, had average fan support that would be terrible support next year and yet we all found it unacceptable. But in basketball it's totally acceptable (to many apparently). It's a strange Mississippi State mentality.

In this thread (post 41), you said howland isn't a good recruiter. Now you say he's squandering talent, and that's unacceptable. Who got this "squandered talent"? You all over the place

[BiscuitEater]

This is such an unbelievably ignorant statement to make.

Of course there were better options. We just made a horrible hire instead of one of them.

The post I challenged was .. "Once again, we had several other "better" options who were interested in the job but our AD decided to go rogue, went nuts and hired the equivalent of a volunteer upwards coach."

NAME some of those "better options" or suck it up and ADMIT Rick Ray was the ONLY one WILLING to take the job. NO ONE wanted the job after we fired Stans. It's just a FACT.

WHO was "interested" that we hired Rick Ray OVER?

[OLJWales]

The post I challenged was .. "Once again, we had several other "better" options who were interested in the job but our AD decided to go rogue, went nuts and hired the equivalent of a volunteer upwards coach."

NAME some of those "better options" or suck it up and ADMIT Rick Ray was the ONLY one WILLING to take the job. NO ONE wanted the job after we fired Stans. It's just a FACT.

WHO was "interested" that we hired Rick Ray OVER?

I find this hard to believe. Was Kermit offered?

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

The post I challenged was .. "Once again, we had several other "better" options who were interested in the job but our AD decided to go rogue, went nuts and hired the equivalent of a volunteer upwards coach."

NAME some of those "better options" or suck it up and ADMIT Rick Ray was the ONLY one WILLING to take the job. NO ONE wanted the job after we fired Stans. It's just a FACT.

WHO was "interested" that we hired Rick Ray OVER?

This is an absolutely rediculous take.

1) caps doesnt make your points any better, and I can read; I dont need them to keep up with what you're saying.

2) of course I cant literally name them, youd just say "THEY would have TURNED us DOWN!!!!" with zero evidence. Neither of us knows the minds of every single G5 basketball coach.

3) we could pay 1.5-2M to be our coach. That's literally more than 4x what most low level HCs make. Of course some of them would take that. No SEC team has ever had to turn to Rick Ray assistant type hire due to zero HCs being willing to take the job. You seriously saying that post Stans we were the worst destination in SEC BB history? Come on man

4) Kermit Davis would have taken this job if offered.

Let me know if I need to use all caps or bold to highlight my keep points so you can understand them

[gtowndawg]

In this thread (post 41), you said howland isn't a good recruiter. Now you say he's squandering talent, and that's unacceptable. Who got this "squandered talent"? You all over the place

He has two really good players because they are legacies. I could have recruited them. And yes, he's squandered those players. Try harder.

[Pipedream]

He has two really good players because they are legacies. I could have recruited them. And yes, he's squandered those players. Try harder.

You really don't know your ass from a hole in the ground if you think we got Reggie Perry because his dad played here 40 years ago. That's laughable. ms7 had it right talking about SEC wins last 3 years vs support. If we were 6th in football in league wins the last 3 years, Moorhead would still have his job and the stadium would be packed. Mens basketball doesn't get supported at MSU. Anything Howland does positive it's like "well that's what you're supposed to do" when that's never been our history. People lose their shit bc we lost to OM. It's one game. Calm the 17 down. We still have a decent chance at the Dance. Squarely on the bubble, but definitely not out or in as of right now.

[Dawgology]

You really don't know your ass from a hole in the ground if you think we got Reggie Perry because his dad played here 40 years ago. That's laughable. ms7 had it right talking about SEC wins last 3 years vs support. If we were 6th in football in league wins the last 3 years, Moorhead would still have his job and the stadium would be packed. Mens basketball doesn't get supported at MSU. Anything Howland does positive it's like "well that's what you're supposed to do" when that's never been our history. People lose their shit bc we lost to OM. It's one game. Calm the 17 down. We still have a decent chance at the Dance. Squarely on the bubble, but definitely not out or in as of right now.

If we lose at Arkansas this weekend then the season is over. With the way Howland teams quit at adversity and a loss in Arkansas then we will be lucky to go .500 the rest of the season. If that is your MSU standard the keep toting that water bucket. Also, "people losing their shit bc we lost to OM"???? Dude, we didn't "lose" to Ole Miss we were beat like a drum. They have an FPI ranking of 111......111. They gave us our worse beating of the season. "It's one game"....that probably bounced us out of the Dance. We got outcoached by a vastly inferior opponent. And you are good with it. WOW.

[msstate7]

If we lose at Arkansas this weekend then the season is over. With the way Howland teams quit at adversity and a loss in Arkansas then we will be lucky to go .500 the rest of the season. If that is your MSU standard the keep toting that water bucket. Also, "people losing their shit bc we lost to OM"???? Dude, we didn't "lose" to Ole Miss we were beat like a drum. They have an FPI ranking of 111......111. They gave us our worse beating of the season. "It's one game"....that probably bounced us out of the Dance. We got outcoached by a vastly inferior opponent. And you are good with it. WOW.

They gave Florida their worst lost of the season last Saturday. We didn't play well, but OM is red hot

[thf24]

He has two really good players because they are legacies. I could have recruited them. And yes, he's squandered those players. Try harder.

If Perry for one was such a lock then why was he committed elsewhere until three months before signing day?

[Pipedream]

If we lose at Arkansas this weekend then the season is over. With the way Howland teams quit at adversity and a loss in Arkansas then we will be lucky to go .500 the rest of the season. If that is your MSU standard the keep toting that water bucket. Also, "people losing their shit bc we lost to OM"???? Dude, we didn't "lose" to Ole Miss we were beat like a drum. They have an FPI ranking of 111......111. They gave us our worse beating of the season. "It's one game"....that probably bounced us out of the Dance. We got outcoached by a vastly inferior opponent. And you are good with it. WOW.

If we lose that game, we'll likely have to win out to get in. Would put a ton of pressure on the last 6 games, no doubt. We can afford exactly 1 more loss in the regular season, so all of the wiggle room is near gone. That I agree with. But just because we lose Saturday, it doesn't end our chances. The back third is very weak and we can make a strong run to the closing line. No SEC team in the current 18 game schedule has ever been left out of the NCAAT going 12-6. 80% of teams that go 11-7 get an NCAAT bid. Remember that. A loss is a loss. Doesn't really matter by how much IMO. Its BPI btw and it doesn't mean shit. OM is 80th in the net. If they keep playing like they have, they'll creep inside the top 70 and that loss Tuesday night will move to quad 1. No one gets bounced out of the tournament the second week of February when they're on the bubble. People wrote this team off after 3 SEC games and they're writing them off again. Could they miss the Dance? Sure. Is it over right now or after Saturday? Absolutely not. Don't be a prisoner of the moment. There's a whole month in the season left. I'm not "good" with it. I just realize that one game on the road against a borderline quad 1 opponent doesn't ruin our resume. We're still top 50 in the NET and currently have a 40% chance (per TeamRankings) for a NCAAT bid.

[BiscuitEater]

Kermit Davis would have taken this job if offered.

When we hired Ray, Kermit Davis Jr had just spent 9 years as a HC and never even got to the NIT much less the NCAA. Eight years ago, NOBODY wanted Kermit.

I sat through every home BB game his dad ever coached and it was ugly. I sat there and watched as coach after coach turned us down.

[PGHBulldogBG]

When we hired Ray, Kermit Davis Jr had just spent 9 years as a HC and never even got to the NIT much less the NCAA. Eight years ago, NOBODY wanted Kermit.

I sat through every home BB game his dad ever coached and it was ugly. I sat there and watched as coach after coach turned us down.

I get that Kermit didn?t have an impressive resume at the time, but how was that any worse than Ray who we did hire? If we were desperate enough to hire Ray then there is no excuse for not hiring Davis.

[Coach34]

When we hired Ray, Kermit Davis Jr had just spent 9 years as a HC and never even got to the NIT much less the NCAA. Eight years ago,

As usual- this is incorrect. When we hired Ray- Kermit had just gone 27-7 and made the NIT Quarters- while Stands lost the 1st game in the NIT. We picked Ray over that. Loafers stupidity doesnt mean people didnt want the job- it was our position of staying away from AAU style recruiting and the dirtiness of it was what kept us from making a decent hire. Loafers was calling in former players and asking them if Stands had given them money during recruiting before we fired Stands. He and Keenum were sick of the chaos and rep that we had. Hiring Ray taught their ass a lesson.

[MarketingBully]

As usual- this is incorrect. When we hired Ray- Kermit had just gone 27-7 and made the NIT Quarters- while Stands lost the 1st game in the NIT. We picked Ray over that. Loafers stupidity doesnt mean people didnt want the job- it was our position of staying away from AAU style recruiting and the dirtiness of it was what kept us from making a decent hire. Loafers was calling in former players and asking them if Stands had given them money during recruiting before we fired Stands. He and Keenum were sick of the chaos and rep that we had. Hiring Ray taught their ass a lesson.

Davis was going to bring Pierre to handle the recruiting and odds are would have kept Brooks as well. Davis with those two would have secured all of the legacies and we?d of been just fine on talent. Davis is an excellent coach. The only knock on him is recruiting but had he brought Pierre and kept Brooks like he had planned here he would of done bad ass. He?s going to struggle at Ole Miss because he doesn?t have a great recruiter on that staff.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

When we hired Ray, Kermit Davis Jr had just spent 9 years as a HC and never even got to the NIT much less the NCAA. Eight years ago, NOBODY wanted Kermit.

I sat through every home BB game his dad ever coached and it was ugly. I sat there and watched as coach after coach turned us down.

You're moving the goalposts. First you say that no coach would take our job and that's why we went with an assistant, then when I say Kermit would have taken it you change it to "He had a mediocre resume".

Fact is, my point has always been that there are better ocahes than Howland that we could get. Finding him is the hard part. And no, I didn't say they'd have already proven themselves on the resume, just that they'd take our job if offered. In hindsight Kermit would have been a decent hire and he would have taken our job if offered. That's literally all my point was

[msstate7]

Forget all this crap, we have a couple really big games coming up. At ark (44th in NET) and South Carolina (65th in NET)... both these games are winnable, and could really change our tourney chances with 2 wins.

[dawgday166]

Not sure what to think myself. We sure seem uninspired for varying stretches of most every game but win most against average teams. Not sure I understand it, but think we give Howland some more time and see what he can do. This isn't a Moorhead situation IMO. Maybe Ben will morph back into the more hardass Howland of old. Maybe he'll adapt a little and figure it out.

[MarketingBully]

Not sure what to think myself. We sure seem uninspired for varying stretches of most every game but win most against average teams. Not sure I understand it, but think we give Howland some more time and see what he can do. This isn't a Moorhead situation IMO. Maybe Ben will morph back into the more hardass Howland of old. Maybe he'll adapt a little and figure it out.

Well to me you let this season play out. If he doesn?t make the tourney, he?s on the hot seat next year. Not making the tourney with this much talent is a very horrible coaching job and only one tourney appearance with these legacies is shit. He?s not the same coach who was at UCLA. Imo he?s a has been but there?s still plenty of season left and he has plenty of time to turn this season around.

[smootness]

I don't care to weigh in on Howland and how good he is or whether we should keep him.

All I'll say is that anyone who thinks any half-decent coach would have gotten Reggie Perry is insane.

[gtowndawg]

Forget all this crap, we have a couple really big games coming up. At ark (44th in NET) and South Carolina (65th in NET)... both these games are winnable, and could really change our tourney chances with 2 wins.

I can agree with this. I'm not hopeful but let's get the wins and see if this sorts itself out.