Remember when om thought they had a basketball program...

[Tripp McNeely]

That was a fun 15 minutes!!! 😂😂😂 HailState!!!

[Dawgology]

That was a fun 15 minutes!!! 😂😂😂 HailState!!!

Hahahahaha hahahhaa what a bunch of losers

[KOdawg1]

Screw football, basketball, or baseball for them. Crootin season is here. That is what they live for

[drummerdawg]

Remember when State fans were losing their shit because om hired the bestest coach ever?

[PGHBulldogBG]

Nothing would make me happier than being proven wrong about Howland and Kermit if get to the tourney and make a run and ole miss ends up with a terrible record but I?m still holding reservations about both

[Dawgcap]

I swear I thought the same thing last year. We see people believe shit way too soon. He was at MTSU for a reason

[Liverpooldawg]

They proved they had no program when they fired Kennedy to hire Kermit. It still blows my mind that many of "our" fans wanted Kermit here.

[MarketingBully]

This team has a ton of talent. They are finally giving effort which is why you are seeing these results.

[timotheus]

Kermit has almost no post play as Howland does. This boils down to simple recruiting and getting the guys on campus. This in itself is the difference in the two clubs currently.

[R2Dawg]

Kermit has almost no post play as Howland does. This boils down to simple recruiting and getting the guys on campus. This in itself is the difference in the two clubs currently.

Agree. We have a ton more talent than OM. Don't think Kermit is a bad coach. Gotta give Howland a little credit getting the talent to play together; toughest job of a HC these days.

[basedog]

I have to laugh at so many of the guys posting how they wanted Kermit over Ben. For those that stated it, show me where Kermit has done what Ben has done over their Careers. It's not even a debate. Ben>Kermit all day long!

[Ari Gold]

Remember when State fans were losing their shit because om hired the bestest coach ever?

This.. Boom.

[Saltydog]

That may be true and we are certainly more talented than them but don't think for one second they can't beat us. They have some really good guards and we're a roller coaster. We'll know soon enough if we're over the hump or not.

[gravedigger]

Someone who would tell everyone how they KNEW how a coin flip would wind up.

[PGHBulldogBG]

Regardless of the Ben vs Kermit argument, there is no excuse to not have hired Kermit when we hired Rick Ray

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

Kermit has almost no post play as Howland does. This boils down to simple recruiting and getting the guys on campus. This in itself is the difference in the two clubs currently.

Why do our fans act like recruiting isn't part of college coaching? Being a good recruiter is half the job. Howland excels in this are and Davis has not so far. The same people who claim Howland is a terrible floor coach would be the same people bashing Davis for his poor recruiting if he were at State.

[tcdog70]

not only does Ben's record out shine Kermits, but pretty much outshines 98% of college coaches.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Regardless of the Ben vs Kermit argument, there is no excuse to not have hired Kermit when we hired Rick Ray

We shouldn't have hired Kermit then. At that time you wanted a guy who had coached his last 12 seasons with no NCAA tourney & had just had his 1st 20 win season at MTSU. That was his 10th season at MTSU by the way. If Kermit had graduated from Missouri we would've killed Stricklin for even interviewing him. So again MSU fans falling in love with the he's 1 of us mantra instead of a good HC.

[ZedFedder]

The issue I see within Kermit’s offense is this... It relies so much on outside shooting.

[drummerdawg]

The issue I see within Kermit’s offense is this... It relies so much on outside shooting.

Same as AK's teams.

[OLJWales]

I'm still not convinced Ben is up to the challenge to compete at a higher level in today's game and I hope I'm proven wrong. The remainder of the season will be very telling one way or the other.

We still have a big advantage over upiss in hoops because we a have more historical brand along with a big name coach which helps in recruiting. I love the way we've played the last 2 games but based on how long Ben's been here and how long Kermit's been at upiss, I think the jury is still out until Kermit gets a couple more crootin classes in. The talent level difference between the 2 teams couldn't be any bigger right now. Ben's record against teams with similar or better talent levels has not been good.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

I'm still not convinced Ben is up to the challenge to compete at a higher level in today's game and I hope I'm proven wrong. The remainder of the season will be very telling one way or the other.

We still have a big advantage over upiss in hoops because we a have more historical brand along with a big name coach which helps in recruiting. I love the way we've played the last 2 games but based on how long Ben's been here and how long Kermit's been at upiss, I think the jury is still out until Kermit gets a couple more crootin classes in. The talent level difference between the 2 teams couldn't be any bigger right now. Ben's record against teams with similar or better talent levels has not been good.

Howland took over the worst program in the SEC. Kermit took over a program who had avg 20 wins a year for the past decade. Let's stop acting like Kermit had to rebuild anything. AK last year the team quit because they knew AK wasn't coming back.

[OLJWales]

Howland took over the worst program in the SEC. Kermit took over a program who had avg 20 wins a year for the past decade. Let's stop acting like Kermit had to rebuild anything. AK last year the team quit because they knew AK wasn't coming back.

It shouldn't take that long to build a program with 4 and 5 star players on your roster. His overall tenure at State has been a "less with more" style. Until that changes, and I hope it does, we will continue too see a very lethargic fan base which is a reflection of the overall performance and effort so far from the players and coaches.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

It shouldn't take that long to build a program with 4 and 5 star players on your roster. His overall tenure at State has been a "less with more" style. Until that changes, and I hope it does, we will continue too see a very lethargic fan base which is a reflection of the overall performance and effort so far from the players and coaches.

How long to build a program? Rick Ray avg 12 wins a year for 3 seasons. Howland won 14 his 1st year, went .500 his 2nd year, won 25 & made the NIT semis his 3rd year, won 23 & got a 5 seed his 4th year. He's going to win 20+ & has a chance to make back to back tourney appearances since 08 & 09 & only the 4th time in program history. You guys are too busy bitching about what you don't like instead of seeing what he's done & doing. He's doing just as much as you guys beloved Stans but you can't stop bitching to notice. Sorry rant over.

[confucius say]

We need to let the year play out. It is still very possible that we make the tourney and win a game or two. If that happens I don't see how anybody can argue with the trajectory of the program since howland took over

[MCsMGs]

It shouldn't take that long to build a program with 4 and 5 star players on your roster. His overall tenure at State has been a "less with more" style. Until that changes, and I hope it does, we will continue too see a very lethargic fan base which is a reflection of the overall performance and effort so far from the players and coaches.

A less lethargic fan base would go a long way towards improving the effort from the players....

[BeardoMSU]

How long to build a program? Rick Ray avg 12 wins a year for 3 seasons. Howland won 14 his 1st year, went .500 his 2nd year, won 25 & made the NIT semis his 3rd year, won 23 & got a 5 seed his 4th year. He's going to win 20+ & has a chance to make back to back tourney appearances since 08 & 09 & only the 4th time in program history. You guys are too busy bitching about what you don't like instead of seeing what he's done & doing. He's doing just as much as you guys beloved Stans but you can't stop bitching to notice. Sorry rant over.

/thread

[Joebob]

It shouldn't take that long to build a program with 4 and 5 star players on your roster. His overall tenure at State has been a "less with more" style. Until that changes, and I hope it does, we will continue too see a very lethargic fan base which is a reflection of the overall performance and effort so far from the players and coaches.

Totally agree. Howland's teams have underachieved since day one. I could go on all day about the problems I see, but for most of us there's no need to. The people that are still giving him the benefit of the doubt should try placing some bets on his teams. They'll start to see the light really quick.

[OLJWales]

Looking at NM State's roster, they have 2 players that even have a rating and they are low 3 star players. The rest are "N/A"

La Tech has (4) 3 star players and the rest are "N/A"

State has R. Perry (.98), Ado (.92), N. Witherspoon (.98), DJ Steward (.94), R. Woodard (.97), T. Carter (.94), I. Molinar (.89)

We had NO business losing to the teams mentioned above. NONE. AT HOME.

We had NO business getting blown out against a sub par Bamer team and we've damned sure gotta enough talent to hold serve against AU who prolly has equal talent as us.

There's absolutely NO reason for our team to not be able to continue with the improvement we've seen over the last 2 games. NONE.

We are sitting on something more urgent than the NCAA Bubble for right now. We've got to get the Hump Crowds of Old back. That's mission numero uno for now. State fans didn't give Stans great crowds because the team "needed the support". He and the players EARNED and DESERVED it. Once you EARN it, the much needed fan support will follow.

[confucius say]

Looking at NM State's roster, they have 2 players that even have a rating and they are low 3 star players. The rest are "N/A"

La Tech has (4) 3 star players and the rest are "N/A"

State has R. Perry (.98), Ado (.92), N. Witherspoon (.98), DJ Steward (.94), R. Woodard (.97), T. Carter (.94), I. Molinar (.89)

We had NO business losing to the teams mentioned above. NONE. AT HOME.

We had NO business getting blown out against a sub par Bamer team and we've damned sure gotta enough talent to hold serve against AU who prolly has equal talent as us.

There's absolutely NO reason for our team to not be able to continue with the improvement we've seen over the last 2 games. NONE.

We are sitting on something more urgent than the NCAA Bubble for right now. We've got to get the Hump Crowds of Old back. That's mission numero uno for now. State fans didn't give Stans great crowds because the team "needed the support". He and the players EARNED and DESERVED it. Once you EARN it, the much needed fan support will follow.

But you can't cherry pick games in basketball. It's not football. In basketball, more talented teams lose all the time. KY has three losses to teams sub 100. The better barometer for basketball is looking at the season as a whole. Let the season play out.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

Looking at NM State's roster, they have 2 players that even have a rating and they are low 3 star players. The rest are "N/A"

La Tech has (4) 3 star players and the rest are "N/A"

State has R. Perry (.98), Ado (.92), N. Witherspoon (.98), DJ Steward (.94), R. Woodard (.97), T. Carter (.94), I. Molinar (.89)

We had NO business losing to the teams mentioned above. NONE. AT HOME.

We had NO business getting blown out against a sub par Bamer team and we've damned sure gotta enough talent to hold serve against AU who prolly has equal talent as us.

There's absolutely NO reason for our team to not be able to continue with the improvement we've seen over the last 2 games. NONE.

We are sitting on something more urgent than the NCAA Bubble for right now. We've got to get the Hump Crowds of Old back. That's mission numero uno for now. State fans didn't give Stans great crowds because the team "needed the support". He and the players EARNED and DESERVED it. Once you EARN it, the much needed fan support will follow.

Now break it down for

Stephen F Austin beating Duke
Wofford beating UNC
Evansville beating Kentucky

Upsets happen every year in college basketball.

[OLJWales]

Now break it down for

Stephen F Austin beating Duke
Wofford beating UNC
Evansville beating Kentucky

Upsets happen every year in college basketball.

I get that. Everybody gets that. I'm looking at the whole picture of his State Tenure.

Based on his State Work in it's entirety , he should be feeling pressure to continue the momentum that's going now. It Is Time. NOW.

The waiting has been too prolonged. Howland has too much experience to be squandering talent and not getting the same HUMP Action that Stans did.

I'm hoping he can get the job done and retire from hoops at State.

[Ifyouonlyknew]

I get that. Everybody gets that. I'm looking at the whole picture of his State Tenure.

Based on his State Work in it's entirety , he should be feeling pressure to continue the momentum that's going now. It Is Time. NOW.

The waiting has been too prolonged. Howland has too much experience to be squandering talent and not getting the same HUMP Action that Stans did.

I'm hoping he can get the job done and retire from hoops at State.

You're the reason he's not getting the Hump action not him. He's doing exactly what Stans did but you're too blinded to see. Stans would lose a ton of WTF games every year & have us on the bubble going into the SEC tourney. Stop acting like Stans had us as this powerhouse program that we're trying to get back to. Those SEC West banners are really making you think we're more than we were. This 3 year run Howland is having is what Stans was doing. I'm sorry you & others can't see that. You're missing out. Sorry for you.

[Johnson85]

Totally agree. Howland's teams have underachieved since day one. I could go on all day about the problems I see, but for most of us there's no need to. The people that are still giving him the benefit of the doubt should try placing some bets on his teams. They'll start to see the light really quick.

I have been disappointed in Howland's performance because I had very high hopes, but it's not like he's shitting the bed or anything close to it. We have shown steady improvement. If we make the tournament this year, he will have resurrected our program. If this is the peak and we basically are consistently repeating stansbury's peak sans the road warrior year, so that we have talented but underperforming teams that flame out early in the tournament, I'm fine riding that ride until Howland retires.

[Johnson85]

We shouldn't have hired Kermit then. At that time you wanted a guy who had coached his last 12 seasons with no NCAA tourney & had just had his 1st 20 win season at MTSU. That was his 10th season at MTSU by the way. If Kermit had graduated from Missouri we would've killed Stricklin for even interviewing him. So again MSU fans falling in love with the he's 1 of us mantra instead of a good HC.

Agree with all that until the point that your are looking at hiring Rick Ray, who was not even the top assistant on his team. At that point, you at least interview Kermit if not hire him. Even all these years later, I am blown away by the Rick Ray hire. It was just a weird as hell direction to go in.

And I am not running Ray down. He came in and gave it his best and was gracious when it didn't work out. That's all you can ask for.

[dawgday166]

You're the reason he's not getting the Hump action not him. He's doing exactly what Stans did but you're too blinded to see. Stans would lose a ton of WTF games every year & have us on the bubble going into the SEC tourney. Stop acting like Stans had us as this powerhouse program that we're trying to get back to. Those SEC West banners are really making you think we're more than we were. This 3 year run Howland is having is what Stans was doing. I'm sorry you & others can't see that. You're missing out. Sorry for you.

You're kinda fired up about this ain't ya? LOL

No worries. You're right about it being like Stans last 4 or 5 years, but it's not like his 1st 4 or 5. And I didn't care at all for Stans' last 4 or 5 years. I don't like to see primadonnas like Gordon dribbling around the last 3 or so minutes of every game launching shot after shot to win game and never making any of them. Some guys like to think they MJ and ... they just ain't. In either case tho Stans never made it past 1st weekend of NCAAT.

Howland should do that this year with this team and probably should win or come in 2nd in SEC with this roster. Probably dug too big a hole for that to happen now tho. In my particular case ... I'm not getting crazy excited just yet. I'm waiting to see if a true turnaround has happened.

[timotheus]

I will hate it if Perry goes after this season and there is really not much to show for it. He has dominated 2 weak SEC teams and I want to see him lead this team to defeat somebody who is actually good.

[Johnson85]

You're kinda fired up about this ain't ya? LOL

No worries. You're right about it being like Stans last 4 or 5 years, but it's not like his 1st 4 or 5. And I didn't care at all for Stans' last 4 or 5 years. I don't like to see primadonnas like Gordon dribbling around the last 3 or so minutes of every game launching shot after shot to win game and never making any of them. Some guys like to think they MJ and ... they just ain't. In either case tho Stans never made it past 1st weekend of NCAAT.

Howland should do that this year with this team and probably should win or come in 2nd in SEC with this roster. Probably dug too big a hole for that to happen now tho. In my particular case ... I'm not getting crazy excited just yet. I'm waiting to see if a true turnaround has happened.

This is not like Stans's last 4 or 5 years. It's pretty close to his first run if he makes it back to the NCAa this year. Of course the next year would have to be equivalent to the road warrior team to match it.

It will be close to his second run of NCAA teams, but that last NCAA bid was backed into by running through the SEC tournament, so if we earn a bid in the regular season, this will be a little better.

[dawgday166]

This is not like Stans's last 4 or 5 years. It's pretty close to his first run if he makes it back to the NCAa this year. Of course the next year would have to be equivalent to the road warrior team to match it.

It will be close to his second run of NCAA teams, but that last NCAA bid was backed into by running through the SEC tournament, so if we earn a bid in the regular season, this will be a little better.

It's somewhere in-between IMO. Stans let primadonnas take over the last 4 or 5 years IMO. Howland has had a couple the last couple of years he hasn't reined in. Stans' 1st 4 or 5 years they played good team ball IMO. No primas.

Howland has done an excellent job getting talent to MSU. Now he needs to coach it like he can or used to could IMO.

[Ari Gold]

I get that. Everybody gets that. I'm looking at the whole picture of his State Tenure.

Based on his State Work in it's entirety , he should be feeling pressure to continue the momentum that's going now. It Is Time. NOW.

The waiting has been too prolonged. Howland has too much experience to be squandering talent and not getting the same HUMP Action that Stans did.

I'm hoping he can get the job done and retire from hoops at State.

Unreal... The Stands Cult is amazing ..

[OLJWales]

Unreal... The Stands Cult is amazing ..

No Cult. It's about players putting 100% effort and leaving it all on the floor. We are greatly appreciative of what Howland brings to the State Hoops team. He's got a great resume with a name that resonates with top quality players and gets them into coming to State. That part is totally way awesome.

But he has not performed at the level of numerous teams with equal or less talent. UGA is the only team I can think of at the moment that is wasting talent at the level Howland has been doing . It needs to stop now and I think / hope it can.

[BB30]

No Cult. It's about players putting 100% effort and leaving it all on the floor. We are greatly appreciative of what Howland brings to the State Hoops team. He's got a great resume with a name that resonates with top quality players and gets them into coming to State. That part is totally way awesome.

But he has not performed at the level of numerous teams with equal or less talent. UGA is the only team I can think of at the moment that is wasting talent at the level Howland has been doing . It needs to stop now and I think / hope it can.

He hasn't wasted talent IMO. Our 4 and 5 star type players came in extremely raw. Perry was fairly polished but Woodard was extremely raw, just an incredible athlete that is still learning to play. it isn't like we have had KY type classes with lottery picks all over the roster. Our guys have to develop a bit more than other big time signees and programs. We haven't signed a legit 1 and done yet under Howland.

His guys need a bit more coaching up and they have progressed as the season had come along just as last years team did.

[KentuckyDawg13]

No, don't remember. They've always sucked.

[StarkVegasSteve]

You're kinda fired up about this ain't ya? LOL

No worries. You're right about it being like Stans last 4 or 5 years, but it's not like his 1st 4 or 5. And I didn't care at all for Stans' last 4 or 5 years. I don't like to see primadonnas like Gordon dribbling around the last 3 or so minutes of every game launching shot after shot to win game and never making any of them. Some guys like to think they MJ and ... they just ain't. In either case tho Stans never made it past 1st weekend of NCAAT.

Howland should do that this year with this team and probably should win or come in 2nd in SEC with this roster. Probably dug too big a hole for that to happen now tho. In my particular case ... I'm not getting crazy excited just yet. I'm waiting to see if a true turnaround has happened.

So Stans first 5 years for comparison and Rick took over a team two years removed from the Final 4.

Year 1- 20-13....NIT 1st Round
Year 2- 14-16.....No Postseason
Year 3- 18-13.....NIT Quarterfinals
Year 4- 27-8.....NCAA 2nd Round
Year 5- 21-10......NCAA 1st Round


Howland's First 5 years and he took over for Rick Ray

Year 1- 14-17.....No Postseason
Year 2- 16-16.....No Postseason
Year 3- 25-12.....NIT Semifinal
Year 4- 23-11.....NCAA First Round
Year 5- 11-6...….?


So through their first 4 years Stans had one more NIT appearance and one more NCAA tournament win than Howland. You could argue that Howland has gotten a few bigger names than Stansbury has but so has everyone else. The one and done rule has greatly changed how we need to look at college basketball. They both won games they shouldn't and have both lost games they had no business losing.

[dawgday166]

So Stans first 5 years for comparison and Rick took over a team two years removed from the Final 4.

Year 1- 20-13....NIT 1st Round
Year 2- 14-16.....No Postseason
Year 3- 18-13.....NIT Quarterfinals
Year 4- 27-8.....NCAA 2nd Round
Year 5- 21-10......NCAA 1st Round


Howland's First 5 years and he took over for Rick Ray

Year 1- 14-17.....No Postseason
Year 2- 16-16.....No Postseason
Year 3- 25-12.....NIT Semifinal
Year 4- 23-11.....NCAA First Round


So through their first 4 years Stans had one more NIT appearance and one more NCAA tournament win than Howland. You could argue that Howland has gotten a few bigger names than Stansbury has but so has everyone else. The one and done rule has greatly changed how we need to look at college basketball. They both won games they shouldn't and have both lost games they had no business losing.

Good post ... I was off on that one. I was thinking along the lines of 2001 thru 2005 but you right ... Stans era began before that.

ETA: Just for the record I'm not on a fire Howland bandwagon with some others. I do think he can coach this team better than he has been tho. Ben has done this a time or 2 before.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Good post ... I was off on that one. I was thinking along the lines of 2001 thru 2005 but you right ... Stans era began before that.

ETA: Just for the record I'm not on a fire Howland bandwagon with some others. I do think he can coach this team better than he has been tho. Ben has done this a time or 2 before.

I will agree that Howland does need to start hitting on all this talent we're bringing. We've got to be able to get some of these guys to stay. That's what made those Stans teams so good. Players like Zimmerman, Patterson, Austin, Bowers, and Frazier stayed 3- 4 years. And our transfers in Roberts and Powers were absolute home runs. If I had a knock on Howland that would be it. We've got to get more guys to stay longer than 2 years. It would be massive if Perry stayed for a 3rd year, but I just don't see it happening.

[DawgFan85]

Remember when something "special" was going on in Oxford with Kermit and men's basketball last year? Now they are waiting on baseball season to start as their men and women have joined Vanderbilt in the cellar of the SEC and are 0 for the conference.

[timotheus]

Kermit has a legit shot at going O for 8 or more in the conference.

[Ari Gold]

I will agree that Howland does need to start hitting on all this talent we're bringing. We've got to be able to get some of these guys to stay. That's what made those Stans teams so good. Players like Zimmerman, Patterson, Austin, Bowers, and Frazier stayed 3- 4 years. And our transfers in Roberts and Powers were absolute home runs. If I had a knock on Howland that would be it. We've got to get more guys to stay longer than 2 years. It would be massive if Perry stayed for a 3rd year, but I just don't see it happening.

Get more guys to stay ??
Then he better stop recruiting and trying to get NBA level talent.

[Ari Gold]

Remember when something "special" was going on in Oxford with Kermit and men's basketball last year? Now they are waiting on baseball season to start as their men and women have joined Vanderbilt in the cellar of the SEC and are 0 for the conference.


Won last year with AK’s guys..
not saying he won’t get the job done , but all the Kermit honks are rather quiet these days.

[smootness]

I will agree that Howland does need to start hitting on all this talent we're bringing. We've got to be able to get some of these guys to stay. That's what made those Stans teams so good. Players like Zimmerman, Patterson, Austin, Bowers, and Frazier stayed 3- 4 years. And our transfers in Roberts and Powers were absolute home runs. If I had a knock on Howland that would be it. We've got to get more guys to stay longer than 2 years. It would be massive if Perry stayed for a 3rd year, but I just don't see it happening.

First of all, the game has changed and guys are simply leaving earlier on average than they did 15+ years ago.

Second, and more important, most of the guys you listed were never on the NBA's radar. Zimmerman and Austin were drafted but were never going to be solid 1st round picks themselves. Austin barely played in the NBA and Zimmerman never did.

[Ari Gold]

No Cult. It's about players putting 100% effort and leaving it all on the floor. We are greatly appreciative of what Howland brings to the State Hoops team. He's got a great resume with a name that resonates with top quality players and gets them into coming to State. That part is totally way awesome.

But he has not performed at the level of numerous teams with equal or less talent. UGA is the only team I can think of at the moment that is wasting talent at the level Howland has been doing . It needs to stop now and I think / hope it can.

Wasting talent??

[OLJWales]

Wasting talent??

Yea, it's called not getting what would be expected outta whatcha got. He's developed a pattern of not competing on a level at which his talent level would expect.

And the wasting of talent has become the new norm. There is NO damned excuse for us to not have won ONE damn game in the NCAA Tourney outta Howland.

He has under performed to this point and the numbers back it up. There has been ZERO Grind from his players. NONE.

[Ari Gold]

Yea, it's called not getting what would be expected outta whatcha got. He's developed a pattern of not competing on a level at which his talent level would expect.

And the wasting of talent has become the new norm. There is NO damned excuse for us to not have won ONE damn game in the NCAA Tourney outta Howland.

He has under performed to this point and the numbers back it up. There has been ZERO Grind from his players. NONE.

Just stop. And go follow Western Kentucky..

[OLJWales]

Just stop. And go follow Western Kentucky..

Not kissing Stans' ass. I'm just stating statistical facts regarding Howland's tenure thus far. His performance based on talent level has been below sub-par. Demanding that he, his staff and players put forth 100% effort is not being over demanding. It should be expected.

I'm hoping the tenure to date ends up mattering not. I'm hoping he does what he's paid to do RIGHT NOW and all will be forgiven. We've waited too long, time for some action.