One thing I can assure you...

[smootness]

Texas Tech fans are pissed they ever let him go.

And Washington State fans are crushed right now.

That is a good sign.

[Matt3467]

Yes, yes, and yes! Can you imagine State having a qb throw for 5000yds lol

[chainedup_Dawg]

I hope like hell I'm wrong but I just dont see it...this just doesn't seem to fit AT ALL. We've been bitching for what, 10 years now that we can't catch the friggin ball and now we're gonna try to throw it all over the field!? Just doesn't feel like this is going to end well

[Liverpooldawg]

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

[Cowbell]

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.
But the seats will be full

[BeardoMSU]

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

Unless we beat OM, right?*

[smootness]

I hope like hell I'm wrong but I just dont see it...this just doesn't seem to fit AT ALL. We've been bitching for what, 10 years now that we can't catch the friggin ball and now we're gonna try to throw it all over the field!? Just doesn't feel like this is going to end well

There's nothing inherent to Mississippi State that meant we couldn't catch. It's the players and coaches that we had.

[smootness]

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

No way. He'll win at least 5 games.

[TrapGame]

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

No, we fired Joe.***

[dawgday166]

No, we fired Joe.***

Really!!! It did before Joe was fired tho.

[Tbonewannabe]

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

Or one of the best. I think Leach is the ultimate wild card because you just don't know how he will do in the SEC. He has only missed a bowl game 3 times in 18 years and he has been at traditionally shitty football schools. At least with his track record, you would assume that he could continue getting us to bowls. We will see how he competes in big games in the SEC.

[OLJWales]

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

You would make a helluva inspirational coordinator. Companies would pay big money for you to pump confidence into their employees.

[Liverpooldawg]

Unless we beat OM, right?*

We will struggle to get the OOC games next year.

[MarketingBully]

Liverpool please just STFU.

[Liverpooldawg]

You would make a helluva inspirational coordinator. Companies would pay big money for you to pump confidence into their employees.

LOL, I have been accused of being one of the worst sunshine pumpers on many boards, including this one. It's actually very, very rare that I am as down as I am right now. I'm going to vent today, and then I'll do what I always do. I'll get behind him till it's time not to. I do think this is a monumental mistake. This will be very ugly in the beginning and we as a fan base turn on coaches very, very quickly.

[Liverpooldawg]

Liverpool please just STFU.


This has shaken out exactly like I thought it would.

[Liverpooldawg]

No way. He'll win at least 5 games.


4 tops. I'll be very happy if I'm wrong!

[Liverpooldawg]

No, we fired Joe.***


Joe wasn't even close to having the worst year in MSU history. We will see.

[Percho]

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

Also has the potential to be the best in history.

[KentuckyDawg13]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/11fpbdcbnBd5tu/giphy.gif

[Liverpooldawg]

Or one of the best. I think Leach is the ultimate wild card because you just don't know how he will do in the SEC. He has only missed a bowl game 3 times in 18 years and he has been at traditionally shitty football schools. At least with his track record, you would assume that he could continue getting us to bowls. We will see how he competes in big games in the SEC.

It's been tried in the SEC. How quickly people forget.

[defiantdog]

This has shaken out exactly like I thought it would.
National media press, players excited and at the airport to meet him, a coach who's proven, an offensive mind that can score, etc. We almost hired grantham..... Be happy.

[Liverpooldawg]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/11fpbdcbnBd5tu/giphy.gif


I'm far from the only one. I happened to be at a meeting that had several MSU homers in it when it broke. Nobody was very happy.

[MarketingBully]

I wonder if South Carolina fans had this reaction when they hired Spurrier? Had to go from Holtz run style to Spurrier’s fun and gun. To me this hire is similar in size and scope to when we hired Jackie Sherrill. Only this time we’ve been to 10 straight bowls. Going from Moorhead’s system to Leach’s won’t be that difficult plus it’s a much simpler system to learn then JoMo’s RPO based system.

[defiantdog]

I wonder if South Carolina fans had this reaction when they hired Spurrier? Had to go from Holtz run style to Spurrier’s fun and gun. To me this hire is similar in size and scope to win we hired Jackie Sherrill. Only this time we’ve been to 10 straight bowls. Going from Moorhead’s system to Leach’s won’t be that difficult plus it’s a much simpler system to learn then JoMo’s RPO based system.

And no "check with me" bullshit

[smootness]

It's been tried in the SEC. How quickly people forget.

Versions of it have been tried by far worse coaches. And a couple of those have been pretty darn successful.

Also, FYI, just about every single elite team now runs some Air Raid concepts.

[Liverpooldawg]

Liverpool please just STFU.


LOL. I love people like you!

[Liverpooldawg]

Versions of it have been tried by far worse coaches. And a couple of those have been pretty darn successful.

Also, FYI, just about every single elite team now runs some Air Raid concepts.

Name one that lasted. I'm talking about full blown air raid. It didn't last when Leach was doing it as an assistant.

[Liverpooldawg]

I wonder if South Carolina fans had this reaction when they hired Spurrier? Had to go from Holtz run style to Spurrier’s fun and gun. To me this hire is similar in size and scope to when we hired Jackie Sherrill. Only this time we’ve been to 10 straight bowls. Going from Moorhead’s system to Leach’s won’t be that difficult plus it’s a much simpler system to learn then JoMo’s RPO based system.
Spurrier had a natty and a boat load of SEC titles. This isn't remotely the same.

[smootness]

Name one that lasted. I'm talking about full blown air raid. It didn't last when Leach was doing it as an assistant.

Leach was only an assistant for 2 years, and it worked for those 2 years.

Kingsbury only ran it for one year, and it worked that one year.

Nobody who has tried it for longer has been a good coach. The only pure, full on Air Raid is Leach's. And he's much better than the others who have tried it.

A guy like Sumlin failed because Sumlin isn't a very good coach, not because he ran some version of the Air Raid. The idea that the offense that is taking storm pretty much throughout football at every level won't work because 'this is the SEC' is asinine. Yes, this is the toughest conference. And yes, typically it is the toughest defensive conference. And guess what, the offenses that have success against those defenses throw the ball all over the place.

[Really Clark?]

This has shaken out exactly like I thought it would.

Uh...you thought firing Moorehead would led to a huge out cry from the Media that we couldn?t do it, that didn?t happen. A rash of players wanting out of their LOI, that didn?t happen. And that we couldn?t get any coaches interested in our job, that really didn?t happen, we a ton of interested and was the only team to pull a sitting P5 coach this year.

Look, I?ve said my piece, it?s risky and we have seen others run a facsimile of his offense to failure at times. He is the originator though and a lot of times that makes all the difference to be a lot more successful. But this coming out like you thought...that?s just plain false and the posts are there to quote you.

[StateDawg44]

I'm far from the only one. I happened to be at a meeting that had several MSU homers in it when it broke. Nobody was very happy.

Cool story

[OLJWales]

This has shaken out exactly like I thought it would.

Still missing Joe?

[Liverpooldawg]

Leach was only an assistant for 2 years, and it worked for those 2 years.

Kingsbury only ran it for one year, and it worked that one year.

Nobody who has tried it for longer has been a good coach. The only pure, full on Air Raid is Leach's. And he's much better than the others who have tried it.

A guy like Sumlin failed because Sumlin isn't a very good coach, not because he ran some version of the Air Raid. The idea that the offense that is taking storm pretty much throughout football at every level won't work because 'this is the SEC' is asinine. Yes, this is the toughest conference. And yes, typically it is the toughest defensive conference. And guess what, the offenses that have success against those defenses throw the ball all over the place.

Ok. Listen to yourself.

[The Federalist Engineer]

Texas Tech fans are pissed they ever let him go.

And Washington State fans are crushed right now.

That is a good sign.

From living in Big 12 Country in the 2000's....

Leach was impactful and magical for TTU. He had titanic struggles with mighty programs like Oklahoma and Texas. He was relevant to the Big-12 title. He struck terror and was Respected in Norman. He was Attila the Hun to DC's like Venables of OU. In OU, they did not fear Mack Brown in Norman like they respected Leach. They thought Brown was a granny. When Leach left Oklahoma, they did not scrap his offense. They continued with his spread. In 1999, Leach found a JUCO QB named Josh Heupel that nearly won the Heisman at OU and did win a National Title the following season.

[Liverpooldawg]

Still missing Joe?


No. As I have repeatedly said, you never saw me defend Joe this year.

[The Federalist Engineer]

I'm far from the only one. I happened to be at a meeting that had several MSU homers in it when it broke. Nobody was very happy.

Where those same dudes happy when MSU hired JoMo?

[Liverpooldawg]

Uh...you thought firing Moorehead would led to a huge out cry from the Media that we couldn?t do it, that didn?t happen. A rash of players wanting out of their LOI, that didn?t happen. And that we couldn?t get any coaches interested in our job, that really didn?t happen, we a ton of interested and was the only team to pull a sitting P5 coach this year.

Look, I?ve said my piece, it?s risky and we have seen others run a facsimile of his offense to failure at times. He is the originator though and a lot of times that makes all the difference to be a lot more successful. But this coming out like you thought...that?s just plain false and the posts are there to quote you.


No, I never mentioned the media at all. I said the impression it would make in the people that mattered would lead to a desperation type hire. It did. We will see about the players. In all honesty that probability doesn't matter as much now.

[Liverpooldawg]

Where those same dudes happy when MSU hired JoMo?


Don't know. Most if not all of them wanted him gone if that helps.

[dawgday166]

4 tops. I'll be very happy if I'm wrong!

I've gone on record that next year we were looking at 4 to 6 wins with Moorhead. If we had Mullen ... 6 to 8 and I'd split the middle and say 7. Next year awfully young all over and big turnover on Oline. Young QB (unless KT starts).

I don't know what we're getting but ... I know Leach is better than Moorhead without a doubt. I'm guessing 6 wins ... maybe 7 could be 5.

And I know we're fixing to find out if any offense similar to what Joe ran at PSU will work at MSU cause if someone can make it work ... Leach is one of the few who could.

[Liverpooldawg]

What's really funny is I wouldn't at all be surprised if y'all are wanting to fire him, and I'll be the one saying we started down this road we need to give it more time. I hope I'm wrong. I hope he takes us to heights we have never reached. As I said, I'll have my say today and then will back the program, like I always do.

[Liverpooldawg]

I've gone on record that next year we were looking at 4 to 6 wins with Moorhead. If we had Mullen ... 6 to 8 and I'd split the middle and say 7. Next year awfully young all over and big turnover on Oline. Young QB (unless KT starts).

I don't know what we're getting but ... I know Leach is better than Moorhead without a doubt. I'm guessing 6 wins ... maybe 7 could be 5.

And I know we're fixing to find out if any offense similar to what Joe ran at PSU will work at MSU cause if someone can make it work ... Leach is one of the few who could.

I said 5-6 under Joe. 3-4 now. The personnel is just not a match. It wasn't a match for Joe and it's even less of one for Leach.

[dawgday166]

I said 5-6 under Joe. 3-4 now. The personnel is just not a match. It wasn't a match for Joe and it's even less of one for Leach.

Leach is 10x the coach Joe is. Joe wins most like 4 next year depending on Arky & OM improvement. Kiffin would wax Joe.

[Really Clark?]

No, I never mentioned the media at all. I said the impression it would make in the people that mattered would lead to a desperation type hire. It did. We will see about the players. In all honesty that probability doesn't matter as much now.

This was not close to a desperate hire. We just pulled a winning P5 coach who WSU was extending just last month...this is about far from desperate as you can get.

[confucius say]

I'm still warming up to the hire, but even Liverpool, I think, has to agree that leach > joe. That puts in a better spot than we were at a minimum.

[Cloak]

No, I never mentioned the media at all. I said the impression it would make in the people that mattered would lead to a desperation type hire. It did. We will see about the players. In all honesty that probability doesn't matter as much now.

Stick to futbol, not football.

[TrapGame]

Leach is 10x the coach Joe is. Joe wins most like 4 next year depending on Arky & OM improvement. Kiffin would wax Joe.

This^^^^

All damn day long!

[MoreCowbell]

LOL, I have been accused of being one of the worst sunshine pumpers on many boards, including this one. It's actually very, very rare that I am as down as I am right now. I'm going to vent today, and then I'll do what I always do. I'll get behind him till it's time not to. I do think this is a monumental mistake. This will be very ugly in the beginning and we as a fan base turn on coaches very, very quickly.

Posters usually don?t bother me but you?re an exception. You are just being negative to be different. Chill out, either way you slice it this is a hood hire for us because EVERYONE is talking about it.

[OLJWales]

Don't know. Most if not all of them wanted him gone if that helps.

So then you were part of the minority who wanted the JOMO shit show continued.

I'm more worried about Leach's age than not having a good D or him trying to run an offense without the neccessary personnel. I was hoping for someone younger. But the guys done a ton at hard to croot places.

I gotta feeling he's gonna whip this team into shape in a take no bullshit fashion.

[coachkmb14]

LOL, I have been accused of being one of the worst sunshine pumpers on many boards, including this one. It's actually very, very rare that I am as down as I am right now. I'm going to vent today, and then I'll do what I always do. I'll get behind him till it's time not to. I do think this is a monumental mistake. This will be very ugly in the beginning and we as a fan base turn on coaches very, very quickly.

I completely disagree with your concern on this hire. He has been successful where he has coached, this will be no different. I have wanted Leach to come to MSU for a long time. If he hires a hoss DC (Todd Grantham) we will be competing at levels beyond the Mullen years. Take a breath and have some faith. Leach is the real deal. Six wins next year is the floor, I can see 8-10 if things line up just right (OOC games are locks, Ole Miss, Arkansas and Missouri are locks, Kentucky is a probable, A&M or Auburn can be wins). Now I am not saying to expect a NY6 Bowl this year....but expect a higher level of success than you have ever seen before.

[Liverpooldawg]

And no "check with me" bullshit

That WOULD be a positive, if it happens.

[dawgday166]

I completely disagree with your concern on this hire. He has been successful where he has coached, this will be no different. I have wanted Leach to come to MSU for a long time. If he hires a hoss DC (Todd Grantham) we will be competing at levels beyond the Mullen years. Take a breath and have some faith. Leach is the real deal. Six wins next year is the floor, I can see 8-10 if things line up just right (OOC games are locks, Ole Miss, Arkansas and Missouri are locks, Kentucky is a probable, A&M or Auburn can be wins). Now I am not saying to expect a NY6 Bowl this year....but expect a higher level of success than you have ever seen before.

I've been sold on Leach and excited and real curious to see how it turns out. But 10 wins ain't happening with Dabo coaching next year. We don't need to get too carried away with those types of numbers.

[Liverpooldawg]

I completely disagree with your concern on this hire. He has been successful where he has coached, this will be no different. I have wanted Leach to come to MSU for a long time. If he hires a hoss DC (Todd Grantham) we will be competing at levels beyond the Mullen years. Take a breath and have some faith. Leach is the real deal. Six wins next year is the floor, I can see 8-10 if things line up just right (OOC games are locks, Ole Miss, Arkansas and Missouri are locks, Kentucky is a probable, A&M or Auburn can be wins). Now I am not saying to expect a NY6 Bowl this year....but expect a higher level of success than you have ever seen before.

His defensive problems are in large part due to his offense. The floor next year is 2. The ceiling is probably 5, MAYBE 6. You need to look at his first years. We do NOT have his kind of personnel AT ALL. It will take 3 years before we even know if it has a chance. That's a good thing I guess because he is almost certain to get 4 years no matter what. I have seen us win 10 games (more than once), play in a NY6, and get to #1, by the way.

[gtowndawg]

This was not close to a desperate hire. We just pulled a winning P5 coach who WSU was extending just last month...this is about far from desperate as you can get.

Also a two time national coach of the year.

[Liverpooldawg]

So then you were part of the minority who wanted the JOMO shit show continued.

I'm more worried about Leach's age than not having a good D or him trying to run an offense without the neccessary personnel. I was hoping for someone younger. But the guys done a ton at hard to croot places.

I gotta feeling he's gonna whip this team into shape in a take no bullshit fashion.

One half year only. It was obvious it wasn't going to work. We blew any good impressions that Mullen moving on to a bigger program left in places where it matters. This hire pretty much proves that. He ain't worried about a long career anymore. I expected either this or someone who would jump just for the money. I REALLY hope I'm wrong about this. Y'all have only made me feel much worse by the way.

[dawgday166]

His defensive problems are in large part due to his offense. The floor next year is 2. The ceiling is probably 5, MAYBE 6. You need to look at his first years. We do NOT have his kind of personnel AT ALL. It will take 3 years before we even know if it has a chance. That's a good thing I guess because he is almost certain to get 4 years no matter what. I have seen us win 10 games (more than once), play in a NY6, and get to #1, by the way.

Look dude ... I don't say this often to anyone but you need to go back to celebrating our GLORIOUS win against OM.

You just stated he's worse than Joe and that's a crock of shit. The ONLY reason I thought Joe had a shot of winning 6 next year was ... SHOOP.

[Liverpooldawg]

Posters usually don?t bother me but you?re an exception. You are just being negative to be different. Chill out, either way you slice it this is a hood hire for us because EVERYONE is talking about it.

Who cares if everyone is talking about it. Everybody thought we made a great hire the last time too. You know what I said THEN? I said I thought he was a good coach but we would take a big step back because we did not have the personnel to run his offense. I only said it once or twice because Joe was so highly touted. I am not being negative to be different. I was posting this same stuff two years ago when Leach was mentioned. ALSO, I'm not different. There are many who agree with me here. As I said, I'm going to vent today and then I'll do what I always do, get behind the program.

[Liverpooldawg]

Look dude ... I don't say this often to anyone but you need to go back to celebrating our GLORIOUS win against OM.

You just stated he's worse than Joe and that's a crock of shit. The ONLY reason I thought Joe had a shot of winning 6 next year was ... SHOOP.

I did NOT say that. I said that our personnel are much less suited to what he does than they were to what Joe unsuccessfully tried to do. It also does not mesh with our traditional recruiting strengths. This is absolutely the riskiest hire we could have made. I hope it works out. I'll be perfectly happy to be wrong.

I also find it hilarious that y'all like to dish it out, but you don't take it very well.

[Liverpooldawg]

I'm still warming up to the hire, but even Liverpool, I think, has to agree that leach > joe. That puts in a better spot than we were at a minimum.

It may eventually. Joe did not work here, mainly because the personnel we usually get didn't mesh with his scheme. That goes triple for Leach. Hopefully he can change that personnel mix to fit him. The next few years are probably going to be rough. I'd say next year at best is a wash.

[SheltonChoked]

Name one that lasted. I'm talking about full blown air raid. It didn't last when Leach was doing it as an assistant.

Your memory is bad. or your argument sucks. Leach was only at UK for 2 years 97-98. He left to go to OU for the 99 season.... Kentucky was winning 9-24 in the 3 years before Mumme brought in the air raid.

Leach's offensive system is simple 6-8 plays out of multiple formations.

Probably will not beat Bama, but will win 7+ a year. Just like he was at TTU...

[Liverpooldawg]

Stick to futbol, not football.

I'm not worried about the futbol at the moment. We have the best manager in the world and have the best team in the world. I've been a fan for over 20 years and this is THE best team we have ever had and one of the best I've ever seen period. It's still a long way to go and the wheels can still come off, they have before, but I like where we are. Heck, we just beat Everton's first team with a bunch of kids playing.

[defiantdog]

Your memory is bad. or your argument sucks. Leach was only at UK for 2 years 97-98. He left to go to OU for the 99 season.... Kentucky was winning 9-24 in the 3 years before Mumme brought in the air raid.

Leach's offensive system is simple 6-8 plays out of multiple formations.

Probably will not beat Bama, but will win 7+ a year. Just like he was at TTU...

I just want to be competitive again and not roll over after the first play of the game

[Liverpooldawg]

Your memory is bad. or your argument sucks. Leach was only at UK for 2 years 97-98. He left to go to OU for the 99 season.... Kentucky was winning 9-24 in the 3 years before Mumme brought in the air raid.

Leach's offensive system is simple 6-8 plays out of multiple formations.

Probably will not beat Bama, but will win 7+ a year. Just like he was at TTU...

They ran the air raid and it imploded eventually. So 7+ a year is what y'all are after now? Glad to hear that! That's a return to sanity. Hopefully I'm wrong. I'll be very happy if I am.

[dawgday166]

I did NOT say that. I said that our personnel are much less suited to what he does than they were to what Joe unsuccessfully tried to do. It also does not mesh with our traditional recruiting strengths. This is absolutely the riskiest hire we could have made. I hope it works out. I'll be perfectly happy to be wrong.

I also find it hilarious that y'all like to dish it out, but you don't take it very well.

We may not have the personnel yet if Leach absolutely doesn't adapt but ... Joe was trying to put together the very type of personnel that Leach seems to use in his offense from what I can tell. So neither coach would have the personnel next year and ... Leach will be able to coach them better without a doubt IMO.

I don't know how Leach will turn out ... we may find that it is as C34 says and if so, we'll know for sure then cause if Leach can't do it, odds are no one can.

[Liverpooldawg]

This was not close to a desperate hire. We just pulled a winning P5 coach who WSU was extending just last month...this is about far from desperate as you can get.

Go look at who has hired him and their situations when they did.

[SheltonChoked]

Name one that lasted. I'm talking about full blown air raid. It didn't last when Leach was doing it as an assistant.


Texas Tech 10 years 84-43

OU 2000-2019

OSU

UH 2003-2019

The NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS 2007-now...

WVU 2011-2018 61-41

[SheltonChoked]

They ran the air raid and it imploded eventually. So 7+ a year is what y'all are after now? Glad to hear that! That's a return to sanity. Hopefully I'm wrong. I'll be very happy if I am.

You said 4.

Nut up big boy.

Which is it?

And it didn't last because Leach left. he went to OU and then TTU and won. A Lot.

[Liverpooldawg]

We may not have the personnel yet if Leach absolutely doesn't adapt but ... Joe was trying to put together the very type of personnel that Leach seems to use in his offense from what I can tell. So neither coach would have the personnel next year and ... Leach will be able to coach them better without a doubt IMO.

I don't know how Leach will turn out ... we may find that it is as C34 says and if so, we'll know for sure then cause if Leach can't do it, odds are no one can. No one but Leach? That's absurd. He may work out, hopefully he will, but that statement is just asinine.

[SheltonChoked]

No, I never mentioned the media at all. I said the impression it would make in the people that mattered would lead to a desperation type hire. It did. We will see about the players. In all honesty that probability doesn't matter as much now.


Getting a proven Power 5 coach is a despation hire?

Holy shit you are delusional.


There were 3 SEC west vancacies.

One got an OL coach
One got a group of 5 coach
One got a POWER 5 coach. (For 2 programs, and was only fired at ttu due to a power trip)

And you say the POWER 5 hire was Desperation?

Then who was not a Desperation hire?

[Todd4State]

Uh...you thought firing Moorehead would led to a huge out cry from the Media that we couldn?t do it, that didn?t happen. A rash of players wanting out of their LOI, that didn?t happen. And that we couldn?t get any coaches interested in our job, that really didn?t happen, we a ton of interested and was the only team to pull a sitting P5 coach this year.

Look, I?ve said my piece, it?s risky and we have seen others run a facsimile of his offense to failure at times. He is the originator though and a lot of times that makes all the difference to be a lot more successful. But this coming out like you thought...that?s just plain false and the posts are there to quote you.

OUCH! Yep. So much is firing a coach after two years and not being able to hire a good one.

[Todd4State]

Getting a proven Power 5 coach is a despation hire?

Holy shit you are delusional.


There were 3 SEC west vancacies.

One got an OL coach
One got a group of 5 coach
One got a POWER 5 coach. (For 2 programs, and was only fired at ttu due to a power trip)

And you say the POWER 5 hire was Desperation?

Then who was not a Desperation hire?

More facts.

[Liverpooldawg]

I wanted a youngish guy. A good disciplinarian. Someone whose scheme fits the kind of personnel we have got pretty much since I have been alive. Someone who runs the football at least as much as he throws it. Someone who stresses and places priority on good defense. Leach literally checks NONE of those boxes. That's why I'm so down right now.

[Liverpooldawg]

Texas Tech 10 years 84-43

OU 2000-2019

OSU

UH 2003-2019

The NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS 2007-now...

WVU 2011-2018 61-41

EXACTLY. I bet you won't get THAT.

[Liverpooldawg]

You said 4.

Nut up big boy.

Which is it?

And it didn't last because Leach left. he went to OU and then TTU and won. A Lot.

You need to learn how to read.

[Liverpooldawg]

Getting a proven Power 5 coach is a despation hire?

Holy shit you are delusional.


There were 3 SEC west vancacies.

One got an OL coach
One got a group of 5 coach
One got a POWER 5 coach. (For 2 programs, and was only fired at ttu due to a power trip)

And you say the POWER 5 hire was Desperation?

Then who was not a Desperation hire?

Leach has always been a desperation hire. Look at who has hired him and what they were when they hired him. Hopefully it will work in the SEC West.

[dawgday166]

No one but Leach? That's absurd. He may work out, hopefully he will, but that statement is just asinine.

I said if Leach can't run a drop back passing game at MSU (if he sticks totally with that) then Joe damn sure can't and most anyone else can't either. We are definitely a power spread team if that is the case and someone like Mullen needs to show up.

The reason I said that is cause Leach is a more with less coach. We don't know that Brady is a more with less, or Emsfinger, and Saban damn sure ain't. Dabo is ... Mullen is ... and there are probably a handful of others.

[DudyDawg]

I wanted a youngish guy. A good disciplinarian. Someone whose scheme fits the kind of personnel we have got pretty much since I have been alive. Someone who runs the football at least as much as he throws it. Someone who stresses and places priority on good defense. Leach literally checks NONE of those boxes. That's why I'm so down right now.

I cannot fathom the 'personnel' posts. This is f'n college ball. Most players are on the field for like 2 years, at most. Personnel changes very fast.

As far as us never historically having the personnel for this- well, we've never had a coach that runs a system like this, so why would we have ever recruited the personnel for it? Dude has just gotten off the plane and some of y'all are already deciding he won't be able to find some kids that can catch and throw the ball? His last star QB is literally FROM MISSISSIPPI. I think he may be able to find another one now that he's not a thousand miles away.

[Liverpooldawg]

Leach has always been a desperation hire. Look at who has hired him and what they were when they hired him. Hopefully it will work in the SEC West.

Oh, Arkansas is Arkansas. The group of 5 guy was even more a desperation hire than ours was. They tried to get Leach too. ONCE AGAIN: EXACTLY.

Speaking of Arkansas. Case study in the wrong personnel for a pass happy offense. Now I don't THINK our personnel will clash THAT bad with Leach's system. Joe was at least trying to recruit differently. Hopefully it will help.

[Liverpooldawg]

I cannot fathom the 'personnel' posts. This is f'n college ball. Most players are on the field for like 2 years, at most. Personnel changes very fast.

As far as us never historically having the personnel for this- well, we've never had a coach that runs a system like this, so why would we have ever recruited the personnel for it? Dude has just gotten off the plane and some of y'all are already deciding he won't be able to find some kids that can catch and throw the ball? His last star QB is literally FROM MISSISSIPPI. I think he may be able to find another one now that he's not a thousand miles away.

It's the main reason Joe failed. We have been bitching repeatedly ( and I'll say it now that he is gone, rightly so) about Joe not adapting to what we had. Do you think Leach will?

[Liverpooldawg]

I said if Leach can't run a drop back passing game at MSU (if he sticks totally with that) then Joe damn sure can't and most anyone else can't either. We are definitely a power spread team if that is the case and someone like Mullen needs to show up.

The reason I said that is cause Leach is a more with less coach. We don't know that Brady is a more with less, or Emsfinger, and Saban damn sure ain't. Dabo is ... Mullen is ... and there are probably a handful of others.

Agree on that...…except that there are other, better, coaches than Leach who could make it work here. Now getting them here is another story. Also, Dabo is NOT more with less. Those are damn talented teams.

[dawgday166]

Agree on that...…except that there are other, better, coaches than Leach who could make it work here. Now getting them here is another story. Also, Dabo is NOT more with less. Those are damn talented teams.

a) Dabo started out as a more with less dude. Now he is a more with more dude. And his staff is phenomenal.
b) Name some coaches that you think would produce really great drop back passing teams at MSU?

[Really Clark?]

Go look at who has hired him and their situations when they did.

Well that is irrelevant to US today. That is what you falsely alluded to. That we made a desperate hire...you couldn’t be more incorrect.

[Liverpooldawg]

a) Dabo started out as a more with less dude. Now he is a more with more dude. And his staff is phenomenal.
b) Name some coaches that you think would produce really great drop back passing teams at MSU?

A) Not really. He got good when he started recruiting like he does now. They upped their game there.
B) Saban. I know he isn't running it now, but he would be good no matter what. There are others. I DID say Getting them would be a problem, lol.
Its the drop back, lack of running , and absolutely ZERO defense that concerns me.

[Liverpooldawg]

Well that is irrelevant to US today. That is what you falsely alluded to. That we made a desperate hire...you couldn’t be more incorrect.

LOL, ok. It's not relevant, that answered me that did!

[Liverpooldawg]

Ok, I've vented. Hopefully y'all are right and I'm dead wrong. We will all be very happy that way. In fact, we will all be very unhappy, me included, if I'm right.

[defiantdog]

Ok, I've vented. Hopefully y'all are right and I'm dead wrong. We will all be very happy that way. In fact, we will all be very unhappy, me included, if I'm right.

Didn't you want to keep JoMo?

[Really Clark?]

LOL, ok. It's not relevant, that answered me that did!

Dude your cheese has slipped off the cracker. We didn’t make a desperate hire no matter how many times you say it. That’s ignorance and just what you hope would happen. Like the rest of your outdated and uninformed thinking. But to push it even further, locally, regionally, and nationally NOBODY is considering this hire as a desperate hire by Cohen. Find one actual informed pundit, media, coach that said we made a desperate hire. It’s not true but in your feeble mind.

[dawgday166]

A) Not really. He got good when he started recruiting like he does now. They upped their game there.
B) Saban. I know he isn't running it now, but he would be good no matter what. There are others. I DID say Getting them would be a problem, lol.
Its the drop back, lack of running , and absolutely ZERO defense that concerns me.

Dabo recruiting rankings leading up to his first Natty game in 2016 (2015 season) having Bama on ropes until Saban calls the onside kick with about 5 or so mins left in game (if I recall correctly ... maybe longer). Loses game 45-40.

2011 - 10th
2012 - 20th
2013 - 15th
2014 - 16th (Deshaun Watson 4* QB recruit .. not 5*)
2015 - 9th

You right per usual. Dabo just needs more talent to get to Natty title game.

[Spiderman]

I've gone on record that next year we were looking at 4 to 6 wins with Moorhead. If we had Mullen ... 6 to 8 and I'd split the middle and say 7. Next year awfully young all over and big turnover on Oline. Young QB (unless KT starts).

I don't know what we're getting but ... I know Leach is better than Moorhead without a doubt. I'm guessing 6 wins ... maybe 7 could be 5.

And I know we're fixing to find out if any offense similar to what Joe ran at PSU will work at MSU cause if someone can make it work ... Leach is one of the few who could.

There are almost ZERO similarities in Joe Moorhead's and Leach's offenses

[defiantdog]

There are almost ZERO similarities in Joe Moorhead's and Leach's offenses

Well..... they are both stubborn

[Liverpooldawg]

Didn't you want to keep JoMo?

Joe had to go. The only issue I had was timing. As I have been saying, most of you have no idea what I thought about the actual football this season. I didn't post much about it.

[Liverpooldawg]

Dude your cheese has slipped off the cracker. We didn’t make a desperate hire no matter how many times you say it. That’s ignorance and just what you hope would happen. Like the rest of your outdated and uninformed thinking. But to push it even further, locally, regionally, and nationally NOBODY is considering this hire as a desperate hire by Cohen. Find one actual informed pundit, media, coach that said we made a desperate hire. It’s not true but in your feeble mind.

OK. As I said, I've vented. I'm still involved it in the Coach 34 thread a bit. I'm about to quit it there too. I'm going to get behind the program and hope like heck I'm wrong. I don't want to be right on this at all.
One more comment: The informed pundits, media, and coaches all said that Moorhead was a home run hire. I'd use a different argument If I was you.

[BiscuitEater]

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

Or, a really good 9 win year!

[Spiderman]

A) Not really. He got good when he started recruiting like he does now. They upped their game there.
B) Saban. I know he isn't running it now, but he would be good no matter what. There are others. I DID say Getting them would be a problem, lol.
Its the drop back, lack of running , and absolutely ZERO defense that concerns me.

Clemson had the tradition, the money, and everything else to be good. in fact they under achieved for years. they had a natty before Dabo in the modern era.

In fact i will never understand why the SEC took SC instead of Clemson

[Spiderman]

Well..... they are both stubborn

Only one has won 139 P5 games as a HC

[dawgday166]

There are almost ZERO similarities in Joe Moorhead's and Leach's offenses

Well ... you know more about this than I do but seems like they're both drop back passing schemes. But Leach's is simplified with quick throws, no check-with-me, etc. C34 making case (and I can see that side) about SEC speed, man-to-man coverage, etc.

So to me ... if Leach can't succeed pretty good with his scheme then we need to quit aspiring to Brady's, Sark's, etc and stick with a power spread game. What say you?

[Spiderman]

Well ... you know more about this than I do but seems like they're both drop back passing schemes. But Leach's is simplified with quick throws, no check-with-me, etc. C34 making case (and I can see that side) about SEC speed, man-to-man coverage, etc.

So to me ... if Leach can't succeed pretty good with his scheme then we need to quit aspiring to Brady's, Sark's, etc and stick with a power spread game. What say you?

Moorhead was more RPO with some dreaded West Coast principles. A lot more complicated on the reads and preparation.

Plus his screen game was basically non existent

[Liverpooldawg]

Dude your cheese has slipped off the cracker. We didn’t make a desperate hire no matter how many times you say it. That’s ignorance and just what you hope would happen. Like the rest of your outdated and uninformed thinking. But to push it even further, locally, regionally, and nationally NOBODY is considering this hire as a desperate hire by Cohen. Find one actual informed pundit, media, coach that said we made a desperate hire. It’s not true but in your feeble mind.
Since you asked.......

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4424251002

As I said I'm done with it. I just posted this because the guy asked. Argue with Wolken, not me.

[Spiderman]

Since you asked.......

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4424251002

As I said I'm done with it. I just posted this because the guy asked. Argue with Wolken, not me.

You do know that Wolken has a personal dislike for Leach since Leach called him out a while back, don't you? Wolken hates Leach

[Cooterpoot]

Leach is a good offensive coach. Nobody can deny that.

[Liverpooldawg]

You do know that Wolken has a personal dislike for Leach since Leach called him out a while back, don't you? Wolken hates Leach
No idea. I don't pay attention to the media much. Someone sent me that and the reason I posted it was the reason stated.

[Johnson85]

It may eventually. Joe did not work here, mainly because the personnel we usually get didn't mesh with his scheme. That goes triple for Leach. Hopefully he can change that personnel mix to fit him. The next few years are probably going to be rough. I'd say next year at best is a wash.

Joe didn't work here mainly because he did a shitty job, not because of his scheme. His scheme didn't help, but he didn't need new personnel to avoid delay of game penalties on the first offensive play from scrimmage. He needed new coaching.

[Really Clark?]

Since you asked.......

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4424251002

As I said I'm done with it. I just posted this because the guy asked. Argue with Wolken, not me.

Well Wolken is as clueless as you and has a personal dislike for Leach. The title of the piece starts, opinion. But you did find one so congrats. The timeline doesn’t work that way since we had to reshuffle the deck first of the week because of Judge taking the Giants job and we hire Leach on Thur officially. We had Sark, Grantham for sure lined up to take our job and what ever was going on with Napier. Desperation is us being turned down by 5-6 guys and hiring Chizik, that would have been a desperation hire

[Jack Lambert]

Our offense will not be full air raid next season but it will be way better then if we kept Moorhead.

[Johnson85]

Posters usually don?t bother me but you?re an exception. You are just being negative to be different. Chill out, either way you slice it this is a hood hire for us because EVERYONE is talking about it.

It's the often wrong, never a shred of uncertainty approach.

Just got proven wrong that we wouldn't be able to hire a good coach if we fired Moorhead, and it's just water under the bridge, not a moment's reflection of how he could be so wrong and whether he should reconsider anything. It's just spin it to, "only desperate schools are willing to hire a P5 coach that has blown away the historica averages at two schools like TTU and WSU."

I am concerned about Leach's offense against SEC DL because I remember Ole Miss destroying one of his better teams, and while that DL was really good even for an SEC team, we'll see one to three every year that are pretty close to that. But I'm not delusional enough to think that one data point is all I need to be certain. And I'm certainly not going to extrapolate from that to think that we can't beat OOC and weak SEC teams with it.

Next year is going to be a struggle. It was with any coach and Leach's style will probably make it more so for him. But we've got pretty good QB prospects (if they stay) and what should be average SEC receivers coming up through the ranks. That should be good enough to have us back to the Mullen style 6-8 wins depending on competition in 2021 while personnel flips over.

[smootness]

I've been sold on Leach and excited and real curious to see how it turns out. But 10 wins ain't happening with Dabo coaching next year. We don't need to get too carried away with those types of numbers.

I don't at all think we will win 10 games next year...but Leach is probably more likely to do it than Dabo. Dabo is more of a program-builder, which takes time; Leach can beat you with scheme. Dabo is the better coach long-term, but Leach can potentially get you more results right away.

[smootness]

It may eventually. Joe did not work here, mainly because the personnel we usually get didn't mesh with his scheme.

No. Moorhead did not work because he is not a good head coach. Had nothing to do with the fit for his offense.

[smootness]

Go look at who has hired him and their situations when they did.

Texas Tech wasn't in a place of desperation when they hired Leach.

But yes, teams have been reluctant to hire him. Why? Because he is weird and different and it seems risky for an AD and a school because he is seen as a wild card, loose cannon and is in no way what you picture when you think of a football coach.

You know what Texas Tech and Washington State are? Really freaking happy they hired Mike Leach.

[Commercecomet24]

No. Moorhead did not work because he is not a good head coach. Had nothing to do with the fit for his offense.

This. It was more than just scheme and offense, the man totally lost control of the players and the program. The undisciplined, unprepared way we came out each week, the fights, the suspensions, the cheating, the culture was eroding swiftly and a change had to be made.

[dawgday166]

I don't at all think we will win 10 games next year...but Leach is probably more likely to do it than Dabo. Dabo is more of a program-builder, which takes time; Leach can beat you with scheme. Dabo is the better coach long-term, but Leach can potentially get you more results right away.

I may tend to agree with you. I'm not sure where this mindset with our fans has suddenly showed up where every year, regardless, is a 9 or 10 win season. Most years 8 maybe 9 are tops. Floor is 5 to 6. Next year typical year ... 5 to 8 IMO. Depends a lot on Leach's staff and how his 1st year implementation goes.

Our roster next year has a bunch of 1st time starters on Oline

[BrunswickDawg]

It's the often wrong, never a shred of uncertainty approach.

Just got proven wrong that we wouldn't be able to hire a good coach if we fired Moorhead, and it's just water under the bridge, not a moment's reflection of how he could be so wrong and whether he should reconsider anything. It's just spin it to, "only desperate schools are willing to hire a P5 coach that has blown away the historica averages at two schools like TTU and WSU."

I am concerned about Leach's offense against SEC DL because I remember Ole Miss destroying one of his better teams, and while that DL was really good even for an SEC team, we'll see one to three every year that are pretty close to that. But I'm not delusional enough to think that one data point is all I need to be certain. And I'm certainly not going to extrapolate from that to think that we can't beat OOC and weak SEC teams with it.

Next year is going to be a struggle. It was with any coach and Leach's style will probably make it more so for him. But we've got pretty good QB prospects (if they stay) and what should be average SEC receivers coming up through the ranks. That should be good enough to have us back to the Mullen style 6-8 wins depending on competition in 2021 while personnel flips over.

I think we should all know by now that bowl games can be a crap shoot in terms of team motivation. TT had gone thru the emotional wringer of having upset #1 Texas in one of the best games of the decade, then failed against OK to lock down the Big 12 title (playing 4 straight Top 20 teams in the process), and had been ranked higher than had been since the days of Steve Sloan at the helm. They were a lot like UGA against Texas last year - spent, didn't want to be there, and playing a team on a high after a rivalry beat down.

[smootness]

Speaking of Arkansas. Case study in the wrong personnel for a pass happy offense..

Yet the only time they've had success recently was...when they threw the ball all over the place. Tried Bielema and his run-based attack and it was a disaster, too. Perhaps Arkansas just isn't good. And LOL on thinking Chad Morris is some sort of litmus test on whether a passing attack will work.

[smootness]

I may tend to agree with you. I'm not sure where this mindset with our fans has suddenly showed up where every year, regardless, is a 9 or 10 win season. Most years 8 maybe 9 are tops. Floor is 5 to 6. Next year typical year ... 5 to 8 IMO. Depends a lot on Leach's staff and how his 1st year implementation goes.

Our roster next year has a bunch of 1st time starters on Oline

I have said I think he'll win at least 5 games. If I had to put money on it, I'd probably predict us to go to a bowl. Beyond that, anything could happen. I would be shocked if we won more than 7, though.

[defiantdog]

I still think we only get 7 wins next year, maybe 8..... getting a new coach with an entirely new system takes time for a team to adjust to...... plus we're losing key players on both sides of the ball.

[dawgday166]

No. Moorhead did not work because he is not a good head coach. Had nothing to do with the fit for his offense.

Correct ... Liver won't admit it tho. Leach can coach FOOTBALL Moorhead is a scheme designer at best.

[SheltonChoked]

You need to learn how to read.


4 tops. I'll be very happy if I'm wrong!
F

I said 5-6 under Joe. 3-4 now. The personnel is just not a match. It wasn't a match for Joe and it's even less of one for Leach.
U

We will struggle to get the OOC games next year.
C

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.
K
You

I read just fine. You said 4-3 wins. You said Worst season ever (Which is 0 wins), We would lose our OOC games
When I gave examples of how wrong you were and said we?d average7+, you said I couldn?t read.

I think you have gone senile.

[Really Clark?]

I think we should all know by now that bowl games can be a crap shoot in terms of team motivation. TT had gone thru the emotional wringer of having upset #1 Texas in one of the best games of the decade, then failed against OK to lock down the Big 12 title (playing 4 straight Top 20 teams in the process), and had been ranked higher than had been since the days of Steve Sloan at the helm. They were a lot like UGA against Texas last year - spent, didn't want to be there, and playing a team on a high after a rivalry beat down.

They beat UM in 2 regular season match ups during Cutcliff and Eli days, including the 10-3 season of 2003. They scored 42 and 49 points those 2 seasons. That was a good OM team. They lost 13-10 to the 2005 # 8 Alabama team in the Cotton Bowl.

[dawgday166]

I have said I think he'll win at least 5 games. If I had to put money on it, I'd probably predict us to go to a bowl. Beyond that, anything could happen. I would be shocked if we won more than 7, though.

Agree with this too. That's my thinking going into next year with Leach, Napier, or Sark.

[Commercecomet24]

I have said I think he'll win at least 5 games. If I had to put money on it, I'd probably predict us to go to a bowl. Beyond that, anything could happen. I would be shocked if we won more than 7, though.

Agreed. We have to be realistic and give him a chance. I could see 6 wins and a bowl but more than that is probably a stretch. If we win more than 6 I'll be ecstatic.

[BrunswickDawg]

They beat UM in 2 regular season match ups during Cutcliff and Eli days, including the 10-3 season of 2003. They scored 42 and 49 points those 2 seasons. That was a good OM team. They lost 13-10 to the 2005 # 8 Alabama team in the Cotton Bowl.

Good stuff. Also good examples of why cherry picking a single game to reflect an entire career is dumb.

[SheltonChoked]

EXACTLY. I bet you won't get THAT.

BULLSHIT. You are moving the goalposts, just like I knew you would.

You wanted "ONE THAT LASTED" I gave you 6 that lasted 10 years ( because everything gets solved eventually, or UGA would still run the Wing T)

You said 0-4 wins.

Nut up.

Which is it? Not 2000-2019 OU or the NE pats?

or 0-4 wins?

Cannot be both?

And I'm in for he leaves MSU with a 60-66% win % ( same as Mullen)

[Liverpooldawg]

BULLSHIT. You are moving the goalposts, just like I knew you would.

You wanted "ONE THAT LASTED" I gave you 6 that lasted 10 years ( because everything gets solved eventually, or UGA would still run the Wing T)

You said 0-4 wins.

Nut up.

Which is it? Not 2000-2019 OU or the NE pats?

or 0-4 wins?

Cannot be both?

And I'm in for he leaves MSU with a 60-66% win % ( same as Mullen)

In the SEC dude. We were talking about the SEC. You need to learn to read.

[MedDawg]

Yes, yes, and yes! Can you imagine State having a qb throw for 5000yds lol

I don't think we had a 3,000 yard passer until Dak did it.

[smootness]

In the SEC dude. We were talking about the SEC. You need to learn to read.

Nobody does it until somebody does.

People said Spurrier couldn't succeed in the SEC throwing it all over.
People said any form of the Air Raid couldn't succeed in the SEC until Sumlin, Kingsbury, and Manziel.
People said schools like Bama and LSU were always better off because they played smashmouth football...until they didn't and became even better.

Also, this idea that there are just elite defenses all over the place in the SEC is ridiculous. SEC defenses can be beaten, most of them rather easily, and they can be beaten through the air.

[SheltonChoked]

In the SEC dude. We were talking about the SEC. You need to learn to read.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/pfHBWCCOySoRq/200.webp?cid=790b76117e74c613b7bc22790ef9e0343db2c a7d2fb3d49d&rid=200.webp

Nope you said ONE example.

And the NFL is harder than the SEC....

[WPS]

Yet the only time they've had success recently was...when they threw the ball all over the place. Tried Bielema and his run-based attack and it was a disaster, too. Perhaps Arkansas just isn't good. And LOL on thinking Chad Morris is some sort of litmus test on whether a passing attack will work.

A bad OL and defense are major reasons Morris didn't work out and why the end of Bielema's tenure was awful. Bielema's offense in 2015 actually set passing records, it wasn't as run-dominant as people like to think...pretty sure Brandon Allen vs. Dak Prescott combined for about 15 passing TDs.

Any style will work if you have the right players and coaching. And no style will work unless the OL holds up. Georgia Tech went to an Orange Bowl running the triple option when they had the perfect personnel for it and it got their coach fired when they didn't. Kentucky's offense actually got better after putting a WR at QB somehow. Sometimes you can just never tell.

[Commercecomet24]

A bad OL and defense are major reasons Morris didn't work out and why the end of Bielema's tenure was awful. Bielema's offense in 2015 actually set passing records, it wasn't as run-dominant as people like to think...pretty sure Brandon Allen vs. Dak Prescott combined for about 15 passing TDs.

Any style will work if you have the right players and coaching. And no style will work unless the OL holds up. Georgia Tech went to an Orange Bowl running the triple option when they had the perfect personnel for it and it got their coach fired when they didn't. Kentucky's offense actually got better after putting a WR at QB somehow. Sometimes you can just never tell.

Yeah this is true. Y'alls OL and defense got really bad. That Dak/Allen game was a big 12 game. I still rewatch it on occassion. What a game.

[SheltonChoked]

Leach has always been a desperation hire. Look at who has hired him and what they were when they hired him. Hopefully it will work in the SEC West.

Cite?

For TTU, he was a hot OC with a new system that worked at UK and at OU. His QB's at UK and at OU were very successful (#1 NFL draft pick, #2 in Heisman)

For WSU, he was a proven coach that was able to win 66% of his games, and never had a losing record

After he was let go at TTU, he was suing them for wrongful termination He miraculously took a HC job after his lawsuits were dropped. (coincidentally, his suit claimed TTU was keeping him from getting another job)

But yeah " desperation hire"

Rick Ray is a desperation hire

Ole Miss hiring Ed O was desperation hire

As for the Leach "fit" who was the highest rated WR Leach ever recruited? How many WR on our team are rated better than him? QB?

[KB21]

Texas Tech fans are pissed they ever let him go.

And Washington State fans are crushed right now.

That is a good sign.

Yes. Going into this coaching search, if I had known Mike Leach would have been an option, he would have been my top choice.