Here's something that has always puzzled me about MSU football

[Todd4State]

Take this year for example:

Joe Burrow win the Heisman. He has some MSU ties. Goes to LSU.

Derrick Brown won the Lott Impact Trophy tonight and would have made a huge difference for us. Goes to Auburn and Dan barely tried to recruit him.

I've talked about Gardner Minchew in the past and how we refused to recruit him because "he didn't fit" Dan's system.

Missing out on players like this really hurts MSU a LOT.

The weird thing about it is we don't do it as much in basketball- Tyson Carter, Rick Perry, heck even Rick Stansbury's son.

Baseball was bad when Polk II was here but has gotten better at least as far as identifying players that are MSU fans or have ties and recruiting them. Not necessarily former players sons.

Anyway- I think this is an area where football often fails and needs to get better at. I don't really understand why we seem to be so bad at it- or why the players with ties that we miss seem to really go on to do really big things. This may be a residual effect of our low in recruiting under Dan which to me was 2016 when we missed out on those players I mentioned and AJ Brown and Scott Lashley- we can't keep missing out on local players like that. Missing on Saahdiq Charles was big too. I'll never forget the article where he basically said the reason he chose LSU was because they "called him more".

Joe has his issues and I know this will devolve into that like every other MSU football thread- but there is no question that some major recruiting misses from when Dan was here have greatly affected us the past two years as well.

[defiantdog]

I agree, but attacking out of state kids might help us better in skill positions. The #1 kid in MS wouldn't even break the top 10 in Georgia.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

I agree, but attacking out of state kids might help us better in skill positions. The #1 kid in MS wouldn't even break the top 10 in Georgia.

VERY true!

[MetEdDawg]

I've asked this question and not sure there's an answer.

How often should we expect to do the following:

1) Realistically pull in state kids that are being heavily recruited to Bama, LSU, UGA, or Auburn?
2) Pull talented out of state kids being pursued by the same schools?

Our problem is we are still light years behind those programs in perception and resources. Until that changes, I'm honestly not sure what we are supposed to do when it comes to recruiting against them. We realistically aren't going into Alabama or Georgia and pulling a Top 10 kid. Louisiana and Tennessee realistically 1 or 2 a year we can pull.

One big factor that we have seen both directly and indirectly is the increase in Georgia's recruiting footprint. Not only did they come in last year and take the best prospect in the state, but they also went into Alabama and took the Top 2 prospects from there. 5 of the Top 10 in Alabama and 8 of the Top 15 went out of state last year. That's gonna cause Auburn and Alabama to change gears and encroach on us.

Until we become more prominent on the big stage consistently, this will be a constant cyclical battle.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Makes you wonder what would have happened if Mullen would have at least tried to recruit 2014-2017....

[ShotgunDawg]

I've asked this question and not sure there's an answer.

How often should we expect to do the following:

1) Realistically pull in state kids that are being heavily recruited to Bama, LSU, UGA, or Auburn?
2) Pull talented out of state kids being pursued by the same schools?

Our problem is we are still light years behind those programs in perception and resources. Until that changes, I'm honestly not sure what we are supposed to do when it comes to recruiting against them. We realistically aren't going into Alabama or Georgia and pulling a Top 10 kid. Louisiana and Tennessee realistically 1 or 2 a year we can pull.

One big factor that we have seen both directly and indirectly is the increase in Georgia's recruiting footprint. Not only did they come in last year and take the best prospect in the state, but they also went into Alabama and took the Top 2 prospects from there. 5 of the Top 10 in Alabama and 8 of the Top 15 went out of state last year. That's gonna cause Auburn and Alabama to change gears and encroach on us.

Until we become more prominent on the big stage consistently, this will be a constant cyclical battle.

- We should get top Mississippi kids 9 out of 10 times against those other schools. We've got to be on them earlier than them and find a way to make it happen. I'm sure many will disagree with this percentage but we've got to set lofty expectations in order to get better. I couldn't care less about realistic expectations. I only care about is improving and there is no reason we should be losing instate talent and the rate we current are after 10 bowl games.

- Out of state, 1 out of 10.

- As to Todd's question, the overall reason is our lack of institutional and booster commitment to football. We say we're committed, but we just aren't. We don't go that extra yard in everything we do to make it happen and the reason for that falls far more on the institution and boosters than it does the coaching staff. The other reason is due to the Mississippi inferiority complex that has infected out state for many many years. Many many Mississippians have a belief that they are less than people from other states. That mindset has to change.

[Dawgbite]

- We should get top Mississippi kids 9 out of 10 times against those other schools. We've got to be on them earlier than them and find a way to make it happen. I'm sure many will disagree with this percentage but we've got to set lofty expectations in order to get better. I couldn't care less about realistic expectations. I only care about is improving and there is no reason we should be losing instate talent and the rate we current are after 10 bowl games.

- Out of state, 1 out of 10.

- As to Todd's question, the overall reason is our lack of institutional and booster commitment to football. We say we're committed, but we just aren't. We don't go that extra yard in everything we do to make it happen and the reason for that falls far more on the institution and boosters than it does the coaching staff. The other reason is due to the Mississippi inferiority complex that has infected out state for many many years. Many many Mississippians have a belief that they are less than people from other states. That mindset has to change.

That' s some downright maroon colored glasses delusion right here. I would say that for a Ms kid we might pull 3 out of 10 and for an out of state kid it would be closer to 1 out of 25. First of all, kids today don't care what daddy did 25 years ago and second a lot of kids today have an absent father or a split family with multiple influences. I bleed maroon but if I had a son with a legitimate chance at the NFL and he narrowed it down to Alabama and State, it would be hard for me not to tell him that Alabama gives him his best chance of attaining that goal. It would be totally his decision but I would be OK with either and no I would not wear crimson to the games. I would be the only guy wearing State gear at the Iron Bowl.

[ShotgunDawg]

That' s some downright maroon colored glasses delusion right here. I would say that for a Ms kid we might pull 3 out of 10 and for an out of state kid it would be closer to 1 out of 25. First of all, kids today don't care what daddy did 25 years ago and second a lot of kids today have an absent father or a split family with multiple influences. I bleed maroon but if I had a son with a legitimate chance at the NFL and he narrowed it down to Alabama and State, it would be hard for me not to tell him that Alabama gives him his best chance of attaining that goal. It would be totally his decision but I would be OK with either and no I would not wear crimson to the games. I would be the only guy wearing State gear at the Iron Bowl.

Inferiority complex guy here.

Bama gets better players and thus produces more NFL players.

I don't think there is a penny's worth of difference between the chance you have at being an NFL player at Bama or MSU. The top recruits we've gotten have panned just as often as theirs.

Secondly, 3 of 10? That's the kind of expectations we have to destroy. SET HIGHER EXPECTATIONS!!!

Low expectation people are a far bigger part of the problem than the solution. I'd rather have a fan base full of delusional people than anyone like you.

[ShotgunDawg]

I think you can boil the MSU fan base into two groups:

- The MSU can't group. This group sells themselves as realistic and positive because they don't complain about short comings and set low expectations. In the end however, they don't believe in MSU or Mississippi and are really the most negative group of MSU fans but hide behind a vail of insecurity.

- The MSU can group. This group gets blamed for unrealistic expectations and gets told they are often negative because the don't accept the status quo and demand more. However, in reality, this is the most positive group of MSU fans because they believe in MSU and the state of Mississippi and recognize that many of the past shortcomings that have established the status quo are due to poor, weak past leadership mostly led by group 1s. This group also tends to be the most travelled and knowledgeable about the inner workings of college sports.

[MetEdDawg]

- We should get top Mississippi kids 9 out of 10 times against those other schools. We've got to be on them earlier than them and find a way to make it happen. I'm sure many will disagree with this percentage but we've got to set lofty expectations in order to get better. I couldn't care less about realistic expectations. I only care about is improving and there is no reason we should be losing instate talent and the rate we current are after 10 bowl games.

- Out of state, 1 out of 10.

- As to Todd's question, the overall reason is our lack of institutional and booster commitment to football. We say we're committed, but we just aren't. We don't go that extra yard in everything we do to make it happen and the reason for that falls far more on the institution and boosters than it does the coaching staff. The other reason is due to the Mississippi inferiority complex that has infected out state for many many years. Many many Mississippians have a belief that they are less than people from other states. That mindset has to change.

So we have an inferiority complex, but if artificially create lofty expectations, we should get the top kids in the state 90% of the time? We've been down this road before man. No matter what our inferiority complex looks like, that will NEVER HAPPEN.

If I'm Nakobi Dean, other than some fake or manufactured sense of staying in MS, why would I choose MSU over Georgia? If I'm Turnage or Young, and a team coached by Saban with 5 national titles says come play for me, why would I go to MSU?

I love MSU. But you will never convince me that in today's college football that we should have an edge over teams like Georgia and Alabama that are winning titles, playing for titles, winning conferences and divisions, and putting tons of guys in the NFL at the rate they are.

Can we and should we get some highly rated in state guys? Absolutely. 90%??? That's just some bull crap pie in the sky talk to sound superior to everyone else. Means we should get 9 out of 10 of the Top 5 every 2 years. And that's plain ridiculous.

[Dawgbite]

Not inferior, just being realistic. College sports is a world of haves and have nots. In Baseball we are a Have and Bama is a Have Not. In football Bama is a Have and we are a Have Not. NCAA football is fueled by money, that is something we do not have and never will have compared to the Blue Bloods of the sport. We are just too far behind to ever catch up, we were led far too long by an incompetent athletic department that allowed us to be someones else punching bag instead of advancing the department. To top it off there is not enough money in this state to fund 2 SEC schools and 1 CUSA school to the level that Bama or Michigan or Texas is funded, its just not possible and that's why we will never be consistently on their level. We can periodically attain that level for a short time through good recruiting, development, and coaching but its not likely sustainable because of the talent gap. An injury or a miss on a recruit hurts us far more than it does Bama because we will never have the depth to overcome a little bad luck. We can catch lightning in a bottle like we did in 14 and improve our place in the pecking order but we are going to hit some bumps in the road as well.

[ShotgunDawg]

Not inferior, just being realistic. College sports is a world of haves and have nots. In Baseball we are a Have and Bama is a Have Not. In football Bama is a Have and we are a Have Not. NCAA football is fueled by money, that is something we do not have and never will have compared to the Blue Bloods of the sport. We are just too far behind to ever catch up, we were led far too long by an incompetent athletic department that allowed us to be someones else punching bag instead of advancing the department. To top it off there is not enough money in this state to fund 2 SEC schools and 1 CUSA school to the level that Bama or Michigan or Texas is funded, its just not possible and that's why we will never be consistently on their level. We can periodically attain that level for a short time through good recruiting, development, and coaching but its not likely sustainable because of the talent gap. An injury or a miss on a recruit hurts us far more than it does Bama because we will never have the depth to overcome a little bad luck. We can catch lightning in a bottle like we did in 14 and improve our place in the pecking order but we are going to hit some bumps in the road as well.

Nah, you believe you're inferior.

So you believe MSU can't?

[ShotgunDawg]

So we have an inferiority complex, but if artificially create lofty expectations, we should get the top kids in the state 90% of the time? We've been down this road before man. No matter what our inferiority complex looks like, that will NEVER HAPPEN.

If I'm Nakobi Dean, other than some fake or manufactured sense of staying in MS, why would I choose MSU over Georgia? If I'm Turnage or Young, and a team coached by Saban with 5 national titles says come play for me, why would I go to MSU?

I love MSU. But you will never convince me that in today's college football that we should have an edge over teams like Georgia and Alabama that are winning titles, playing for titles, winning conferences and divisions, and putting tons of guys in the NFL at the rate they are.

Can we and should we get some highly rated in state guys? Absolutely. 90%??? That's just some bull crap pie in the sky talk to sound superior to everyone else. Means we should get 9 out of 10 of the Top 5 every 2 years. And that's plain ridiculous.

So you believe MSU can't as well?

[Lord McBuckethead]

Inferiority complex guy here.

Bama gets better players and thus produces more NFL players.

I don't think there is a penny's worth of difference between the chance you have at being an NFL player at Bama or MSU. The top recruits we've gotten have panned just as often as theirs.

Secondly, 3 of 10? That's the kind of expectations we have to destroy. SET HIGHER EXPECTATIONS!!!

Low expectation people are a far bigger part of the problem than the solution. I'd rather have a fan base full of delusional people than anyone like you.

I don't think those were expectations, but pretty much statistics.

[StateDawg44]

- We should get top Mississippi kids 9 out of 10 times against those other schools. We've got to be on them earlier than them and find a way to make it happen. I'm sure many will disagree with this percentage but we've got to set lofty expectations in order to get better. I couldn't care less about realistic expectations. I only care about is improving and there is no reason we should be losing instate talent and the rate we current are after 10 bowl games.

- Out of state, 1 out of 10.

- As to Todd's question, the overall reason is our lack of institutional and booster commitment to football. We say we're committed, but we just aren't. We don't go that extra yard in everything we do to make it happen and the reason for that falls far more on the institution and boosters than it does the coaching staff. The other reason is due to the Mississippi inferiority complex that has infected out state for many many years. Many many Mississippians have a belief that they are less than people from other states. That mindset has to change.


I'm glad we have you leading the charge to change the entire culture of a state.** You should probably lay off the internet more if you want to make a real impact. Otherwise, this is just you saying you are committed but really, you aren't. You are damn sure committed to sling mud and talk down about MS and MSU though. That's a fact.

Let's hear your solution right here and now since it's just that easy to "make it happen". Yeah... y'all just go make it happen. You seem to know exactly what needs to be done.

How many times have we been on someone the entire time and been with them first, just to see the rug get snatched out from under us? Then we'd have you bitching about how we wasted the time on someone we were never going to get in the first place. Hell if you were in charge we'd go after nothing but 4 and 5 stars and at the end of the year, be left with a 1/4 of a class signed and then be wondering why the hell these kids aren't loyal like we are some pimp and they are our hoes.

You are beyond delusional in expecting these kids to be loyal because of what man-made borders their homes fall in. I totally agree they should be heavily influenced by the in-state schools but it really isn't hard to understand the battle these coaches face with the schools that literally surround MS. Sorry if you are too dumb to wrap your head around it.

If you lived in Ohio, got to choose to play on any team in the NFL, and your goal was to win a Super Bowl, are you going to choose the Cleveland Browns to live out your dream of winning Super Bowl? Hell no.

Go be some other college teams "fan", please because you are an insufferable bitch.

[BrunswickDawg]

Inferiority complex guy here.

Bama gets better players and thus produces more NFL players.

I don't think there is a penny's worth of difference between the chance you have at being an NFL player at Bama or MSU. The top recruits we've gotten have panned just as often as theirs.

Secondly, 3 of 10? That's the kind of expectations we have to destroy. SET HIGHER EXPECTATIONS!!!

Low expectation people are a far bigger part of the problem than the solution. I'd rather have a fan base full of delusional people than anyone like you.

Like most things, it's not cut and dry and you are trying to force a reality that isn't possible. No one locks down their state in the South. There are too many high quality teams for it to happen. Not to mention the fact that we have another in-state SEC school to compete against (who cheats their ass off to boot). No one is saying we should be satisfied with 3 of 10 - but 9 of 10 isn't even close to possible most years. However, our recruiting approach should reflect an effort to lock in 10 of the 10. And that is where people were critical of Mullen. We should have made AJ Brown's choice the hardest thing he ever had to do, same with Raekwon Davis, Lashley, etc. We may lose out, but it shouldn't be for a lack of effort. We should never be out-worked for a top MS kid.

And Todd's original post was even about the myth of locking down MS - it was about IDing kids that we have a natural "in" with. I think the biggest issue we have had there is coaches who weren't willing to listen. I'm sure we have boosters/fans sending "recruit this kid" info all the time. It probably gets tiresome. It would be interesting to know if anyone ever sent Dan an e-mail about Burrow that said "hey, this kid's family is from Amory, check him out."

[MetEdDawg]

So you believe MSU can't as well?

That is correct. And to believe we can is absolutely looney toons man. We don't even come close to offering what those 4 schools do. Not even close. And to think we do is just flat out stupidity.

We don't put NFL players out at the rate Bama does and we don't put as many in the first round. That's just facts and I'm shocked anyone would say that.

If our culture is so bad, a bunch of us drumming up high expectations doesn't do anything. Literally it does nothing. You have to perform or work your ass off. We aren't performing but we are working our ass off in recruiting. But to say we are in the conversation with those schools with the lowest recruiting budget in the SEC and one noteworthy season in the last 20 years is just not smart.

[Bubb Rubb]

Makes you wonder what would have happened if Mullen would have at least tried to recruit 2014-2017....

Yeh.....it sure would have been nice to land a Jeffrey Simmons. Or a Chris Jones. Or a Willie Gay. Or a Kylin Hill. Or a Montez Sweat. Or a Johnathan Abram.

Dan wasn't a great recruiter. And yes, Dan missed out on some folks. But to say he didn't even try? C'mon, man.

[1bigdawg]

We don't put NFL players out at the rate Bama does and we don't put as many in the first round. That's just facts and I'm shocked anyone would say that.

I believe we have put a higher percentage of our 4 and 5-star signees in the NFL than Bama has over the last ten years. What does that do to your narrative?

[MaroonFlounder]

It must start with getting the kids that are going to Alabama and KNOW that they are going to sit the bench for 5 years...and are OK with that. Lashley and Knott should have been Bulldogs.

It may finally even out when Saban retires, but until we get the guys that are gonna go be sideline cheerleaders for the Tide for 4 years, we won't come close to competing...save for that one year a decade when stars magically line up.

[1bigdawg]

I agree with Todd's original post, with a caveat. State and Ole Miss, together, should sign 9 of 10 top in-state recruits. I wish State could sign all of them, but that is just not realistic. Some guys and their families are just Ole Miss fans.

State could/can realistically sign 6 a year and that would be great.

Out of State is tougher, However a couple of guys from Lousiana and Alabama tend to slip through the cracks every year and a top 50 player in Georgia is a top 10 in Mississippi. We should go after them.

[bluelightstar]

Yeh.....it sure would have been nice to land a Jeffrey Simmons. Or a Chris Jones. Or a Willie Gay. Or a Kylin Hill. Or a Montez Sweat. Or a Johnathan Abram.

Dan wasn't a great recruiter. And yes, Dan missed out on some folks. But to say he didn't even try? C'mon, man.

Seriously, these folks make it sound like we were recruiting on USM level. Could've sworn we had 3 first round draft picks a year ago...

[Irondawg]

There's some truth on both sides of this. If a generic 5-star player goes to MSU or Bama or any other SEC program he probably has the same odds of getting to the NFL. That's just fact - State, Ole Miss, Kentucky are putting their best recruits in the NFL just fine. All SEC teams have good coaches and facilities so player development is going to be pretty much on par throughout the league.

The argument of "we put more players in the NFL" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when you are recruiting in the top 10 every year.

Problems come in the terms of kids that want to go compete for titles. We've proven we can do it at MSU when we were in the top 4 in the home stretch. Ole Miss made noise. The problem is doing it consistently which pretty much requires top 10 recruiting over a period of time or some luck (i.e. Dak). The teams at the top relish their spots there are aren't going to be moved quietly.

It's requires an insane commitment from boosters and university admins and the ability to overcome the political influence of the established base. Ole Miss tried, but Bama, Auburn, GA, etc were NOT going to allow that happen long-term. Ole Miss got destroyed and Auburn got a 2-day ban for Cam, who we should have gotten if we had played the game. MSU would have gotten hammered if we were the ones to make the generous donation to the church.

Uphill battle, but the truth is that our state doesn't produce enough top talent to do it in-house even if we didn't have Ole Miss here as well. But we do have another in-state school with influence and then we have the piranhas of LSU, Bama, Auburn right on your border that boast almost annual top 10 finishes and the mountain is large. Plus we just don't have the alumni base and money the other schools have.

I'll never say it CAN'T be done, but it's very, very, very difficult

[WPDawg]

Take this year for example:

Joe Burrow win the Heisman. He has some MSU ties. Goes to LSU.

Derrick Brown won the Lott Impact Trophy tonight and would have made a huge difference for us. Goes to Auburn and Dan barely tried to recruit him.

I've talked about Gardner Minchew in the past and how we refused to recruit him because "he didn't fit" Dan's system.

Missing out on players like this really hurts MSU a LOT.

The weird thing about it is we don't do it as much in basketball- Tyson Carter, Rick Perry, heck even Rick Stansbury's son.

Baseball was bad when Polk II was here but has gotten better at least as far as identifying players that are MSU fans or have ties and recruiting them. Not necessarily former players sons.

Anyway- I think this is an area where football often fails and needs to get better at. I don't really understand why we seem to be so bad at it- or why the players with ties that we miss seem to really go on to do really big things. This may be a residual effect of our low in recruiting under Dan which to me was 2016 when we missed out on those players I mentioned and AJ Brown and Scott Lashley- we can't keep missing out on local players like that. Missing on Saahdiq Charles was big too. I'll never forget the article where he basically said the reason he chose LSU was because they "called him more".

Joe has his issues and I know this will devolve into that like every other MSU football thread- but there is no question that some major recruiting misses from when Dan was here have greatly affected us the past two years as well.

Some kids just want to take the opportunity to go out of state and remove themselves from being in Mississippi. Unfortunately, with our state's "standing" in the world of perception, it is easy to recruit against us. Not just athletically, but academically and vocationally. With that said, the one's that choose MSU seem to always leave with positive experiences and enjoy being art of the Bulldog family. Need to keep our past students involved and being ambassadors of the university.

[StateDawg44]

I believe we have put a higher percentage of our 4 and 5-star signees in the NFL than Bama has over the last ten years. What does that do to your narrative?


Those statistics kind of work in our favor honestly though. All of those type of players at MSU start or actually get playing time. It's probably kind of hard to put 4 and 5 star players in the NFL when that is what nearly your entire team (bench warmers or starters) is made up of.

I'm sure the bluebloods assure these kids they have a spot on the field for them whether they do or not. So, of course, they buy into what they are told.

[StateDawg44]

There's some truth on both sides of this. If a generic 5-star player goes to MSU or Bama or any other SEC program he probably has the same odds of getting to the NFL. That's just fact - State, Ole Miss, Kentucky are putting their best recruits in the NFL just fine. All SEC teams have good coaches and facilities so player development is going to be pretty much on par throughout the league.

The argument of "we put more players in the NFL" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when you are recruiting in the top 10 every year.

Problems come in the terms of kids that want to go compete for titles. We've proven we can do it at MSU when we were in the top 4 in the home stretch. Ole Miss made noise. The problem is doing it consistently which pretty much requires top 10 recruiting over a period of time or some luck (i.e. Dak). The teams at the top relish their spots there are aren't going to be moved quietly.

It's requires an insane commitment from boosters and university admins and the ability to overcome the political influence of the established base. Ole Miss tried, but Bama, Auburn, GA, etc were NOT going to allow that happen long-term. Ole Miss got destroyed and Auburn got a 2-day ban for Cam, who we should have gotten if we had played the game. MSU would have gotten hammered if we were the ones to make the generous donation to the church.

Uphill battle, but the truth is that our state doesn't produce enough top talent to do it in-house even if we didn't have Ole Miss here as well. But we do have another in-state school with influence and then we have the piranhas of LSU, Bama, Auburn right on your border that boast almost annual top 10 finishes and the mountain is large. Plus we just don't have the alumni base and money the other schools have.

I'll never say it CAN'T be done, but it's very, very, very difficult

Shotgun says you just gotta make it happen.... No excuses.***

[Jack Lambert]

One thing I am tired of hearing is how bad Starkville is and it is hard to recruit to starkville. That is bull shit. If that was the case then the baseball team, men's basketball teams and the women's basketball teams would not recruit like they do.

[ShotgunDawg]

Those statistics kind of work in our favor honestly though. All of those type of players at MSU start or actually get playing time. It's probably kind of hard to put 4 and 5 star players in the NFL when that is what nearly your entire team (bench warmers or starters) is made up of.

I'm sure the bluebloods assure these kids they have a spot on the field for them whether they do or not. So, of course, they buy into what they are told.

Which is the exact reason many of these kids should be coming to MSU.

[ShotgunDawg]

One thing I am tired of hearing is how bad Starkville is and it is hard to recruit to starkville. That is bull shit. If that was the case then the baseball team, men's basketball teams and the women's basketball teams would not recruit like they do.

It's just propaganda by those trying to out recruit us.

Problem is that it became a general perception by those who've never been to Starkville and the perception by many MSU fans as well who have never travelled.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

- We should get top Mississippi kids 9 out of 10 times against those other schools. We've got to be on them earlier than them and find a way to make it happen. I'm sure many will disagree with this percentage but we've got to set lofty expectations in order to get better. I couldn't care less about realistic expectations. I only care about is improving and there is no reason we should be losing instate talent and the rate we current are after 10 bowl games.

- Out of state, 1 out of 10.

- As to Todd's question, the overall reason is our lack of institutional and booster commitment to football. We say we're committed, but we just aren't. We don't go that extra yard in everything we do to make it happen and the reason for that falls far more on the institution and boosters than it does the coaching staff. The other reason is due to the Mississippi inferiority complex that has infected out state for many many years. Many many Mississippians have a belief that they are less than people from other states. That mindset has to change.

Between our Mickey Mouse compliance dept and that we don't have the upper hand on some recruits to pressure them to sign, we don't have the recruiting culture to make this happen. We're very risk adverse and cheap.

[Todd4State]

I agree, but attacking out of state kids might help us better in skill positions. The #1 kid in MS wouldn't even break the top 10 in Georgia.

I?m talking about the out of state players with a parent or that has a connection to MSU.

All of our starting wide receivers are out of state players FWIW.

[MetEdDawg]

I believe we have put a higher percentage of our 4 and 5-star signees in the NFL than Bama has over the last ten years. What does that do to your narrative?

Tells me we are great at developing talent and that our smaller percentage makes a higher impact. But that Bama puts a higher number in and they go higher in the draft. And that's just a fact.

So tell a kid hey we will develop you and win 8 games. Or tell a kid hey we will develop you AND you are pretty much guaranteed to win a title and be in the college football playoffs 2 or 3 years.

Are you seriously sitting here trying to make that argument?

[1bigdawg]

Originally Posted by 1bigdawg
I believe we have put a higher percentage of our 4 and 5-star signees in the NFL than Bama has over the last ten years. What does that do to your narrative?


Tells me we are great at developing talent and that our smaller percentage makes a higher impact. But that Bama puts a higher number in and they go higher in the draft. And that's just a fact.

So tell a kid hey we will develop you and win 8 games. Or tell a kid hey we will develop you AND you are pretty much guaranteed to win a title and be in the college football playoffs 2 or 3 years.

Are you seriously sitting here trying to make that argument?

Now you are changing your argument. You said that they put more people in the NFL. My reply was that a 4 or 5-star player would have a higher probability of making the NFL at MSU. That is a fact.

Yes, they play for more championships, but a great player has a higher chance of making the NFL from what you would call "little ole MSU."

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

So we have an inferiority complex, but if artificially create lofty expectations, we should get the top kids in the state 90% of the time? We've been down this road before man. No matter what our inferiority complex looks like, that will NEVER HAPPEN.

If I'm Nakobi Dean, other than some fake or manufactured sense of staying in MS, why would I choose MSU over Georgia? If I'm Turnage or Young, and a team coached by Saban with 5 national titles says come play for me, why would I go to MSU?

I love MSU. But you will never convince me that in today's college football that we should have an edge over teams like Georgia and Alabama that are winning titles, playing for titles, winning conferences and divisions, and putting tons of guys in the NFL at the rate they are.

Can we and should we get some highly rated in state guys? Absolutely. 90%??? That's just some bull crap pie in the sky talk to sound superior to everyone else. Means we should get 9 out of 10 of the Top 5 every 2 years. And that's plain ridiculous.

It depends on whether or not they want to ride the pine and have a chance at a championship OR have earlier playing time and go to bowls every year. Nnott and Lashley come to mind. I am not convinced though that if we got all the Mississippi top talent we would be any better off. I agree with defiantdog. A mid 4 star player in Mississippi may only be a high 3 star in Georgia.

[Liverpooldawg]

Take this year for example:

Joe Burrow win the Heisman. He has some MSU ties. Goes to LSU.

Derrick Brown won the Lott Impact Trophy tonight and would have made a huge difference for us. Goes to Auburn and Dan barely tried to recruit him.

I've talked about Gardner Minchew in the past and how we refused to recruit him because "he didn't fit" Dan's system.

Missing out on players like this really hurts MSU a LOT.

The weird thing about it is we don't do it as much in basketball- Tyson Carter, Rick Perry, heck even Rick Stansbury's son.

Baseball was bad when Polk II was here but has gotten better at least as far as identifying players that are MSU fans or have ties and recruiting them. Not necessarily former players sons.

Anyway- I think this is an area where football often fails and needs to get better at. I don't really understand why we seem to be so bad at it- or why the players with ties that we miss seem to really go on to do really big things. This may be a residual effect of our low in recruiting under Dan which to me was 2016 when we missed out on those players I mentioned and AJ Brown and Scott Lashley- we can't keep missing out on local players like that. Missing on Saahdiq Charles was big too. I'll never forget the article where he basically said the reason he chose LSU was because they "called him more".

Joe has his issues and I know this will devolve into that like every other MSU football thread- but there is no question that some major recruiting misses from when Dan was here have greatly affected us the past two years as well.

Joe Burrow also has ties to Ole Miss and Nebraska. He has never lived in Mississippi and calls Ohio home.

[ShotgunDawg]

That is correct. And to believe we can is absolutely looney toons man. We don't even come close to offering what those 4 schools do. Not even close. And to think we do is just flat out stupidity.

We don't put NFL players out at the rate Bama does and we don't put as many in the first round. That's just facts and I'm shocked anyone would say that.

If our culture is so bad, a bunch of us drumming up high expectations doesn't do anything. Literally it does nothing. You have to perform or work your ass off. We aren't performing but we are working our ass off in recruiting. But to say we are in the conversation with those schools with the lowest recruiting budget in the SEC and one noteworthy season in the last 20 years is just not smart.

Sheesh. We need new fans.

You are the problem. You and people like you. Ground zero for the problem at MSU.

[Political Hack]

Favre, McNair, Rice, Sweetness... this is not a new problem.

[ShotgunDawg]

Favre, McNair, Rice, Sweetness... this is not a new problem.

New era. We'd get a few of those guys in today's recruiting

[Really Clark?]

Favre, McNair, Rice, Sweetness... this is not a new problem.

McNair was recruited by us and nationally by big programs. Just not for QB

[Dawgbite]

Joe Burrow also has ties to Ole Miss and Nebraska. He has never lived in Mississippi and calls Ohio home.

Joe's grandfather was the Assistant Superintendent at my high school and actually steered me toward State as I had already been accepted to Georgia Tech and that was my plan at the time. Joe's Aunt Jeanie was a couple of years older than me but I knew her all throughout school and up until Horka wrote his article I had no idea that Joe Burrow was the same Burrow that I had known all my life.

[StateDawg44]

Which is the exact reason many of these kids should be coming to MSU.

Yeah but there is more to selling recruits than just playing time. Especially when the Bammers and UGA's and LSU's certainly promise the exact same thing. So you might as well cancel that selling point out. It sounds great but it's not unique to MSU. Unless, you know... you can say you play in games like SEC/National Championships and CFP Playoff appearances. That's where selling your playing time sets you apart. To have the chance to play in that type of spotlight. Not the GD Music City Bowl.

Quit pretending these 17 & 18-year-old kids don't have stars in their eyes and think they have what it takes to be a player at blue blood programs. Because that's what everyone is telling them.

Until we can prove we can do more with less CONSISTENTLY why would you just expect the entire NCAA football landscape to change just because MSU wants highly rated and we are pumping our chest saying 'We here'. Especially when in fact we aren't actually 'there'.

[Jack Lambert]

Favre, McNair, Rice, Sweetness... this is not a new problem.

Favre was that guy that blossomed in college. He was a no body coming out of high school. My understanding is his father who was his high school begged USM to take him. Hell and it was to play defense.

[Maroonthirteen]

Favre was that guy that blossomed in college. He was a no body coming out of high school. My understanding is his father who was his high school begged USM to take him. Hell and it was to play defense.

Didn’t he punt his freshman year at USM? I went to the 88 game vs USM In Jackson. I recall folks talking about farve in the stands but.... my memory is foggy. That was a long time ago.

[Maroonthirteen]

Speaking of perception......

MSU does a good job marketing now a Days. However what can be done to combat the constant negativity from sports media towards MSU. I thought it was just Memphis sports radio but Bo bounds has the same approach to State/OM as Memphis. Everything State sucks. Everything OM is roses.

For me.... I know better. But for many others that have never been to a State game or follow the program close... .... they buy this garbage.

Bounds this morning....after he was told OM ranks 44 and State 25 on 24/7..... Bo says Kiffen is about to do big things in recruiting in the next few days. Moorhead is trying to hang on to a top 25 class. Does State not buy enough influence through advertising?

[StateDawg44]

Speaking of perception......

MSU does a good job marketing now a Days. However what can be done to combat the constant negativity from sports media towards MSU. I thought it was just Memphis sports radio but Bo bounds has the same approach to State/OM as Memphis. Everything State sucks. Everything OM is roses.

For me.... I know better. But for many others that have never been to a State game or follow the program close... .... they buy this garbage.

Bounds this morning....after he was told OM ranks 44 and State 25 on 24/7..... Bo says Kiffen is about to do big things in recruiting in the next few days. Moorhead is trying to hang on to a top 25 class. Does State not buy enough influence through advertising?



Please, show me where we do a good job of marketing. Maybe compared to MSU in the 90's.

We are basically non-existent compared to the majority of other SEC schools that actually give a damn about football. Even KY was capitalizing last year and did a great job. We totally squandered what we could've done with our 2014 season. ETA: On the field and off

[Political Hack]

Favre was that guy that blossomed in college. He was a no body coming out of high school. My understanding is his father who was his high school begged USM to take him. Hell and it was to play defense.

That's true. He was an option QB. Only threw the ball a few times a game. But it's still a miss when one of the greatest QBs in the history of the NFL played QB in high school in your home state and you missed him.

[MetEdDawg]

Originally Posted by 1bigdawg
I believe we have put a higher percentage of our 4 and 5-star signees in the NFL than Bama has over the last ten years. What does that do to your narrative?



Now you are changing your argument. You said that they put more people in the NFL. My reply was that a 4 or 5-star player would have a higher probability of making the NFL at MSU. That is a fact.

Yes, they play for more championships, but a great player has a higher chance of making the NFL from what you would call "little ole MSU."

So you are saying we should be championing the fact we put 2/3 4 or 5 stars in the NFL every year while Bama is putting in 8/16? We have a higher percentage!! We must be better? Yes we should say we can put you in the NFL. But you must not ever be around high school kids. The higher numbers and the better players attract higher numbers and better players.

That's so dumb man. Come on. Percentages are great if you use them contextually correct. They do put more in the NFL every year. Every single year they put more 4 and 5 stars in the NFL. So you can be not smart and use percentages to create a false narrative

[AROB44]

New era. We'd get a few of those guys in today's recruiting

Shotgun....you are like Hubert Humphrey. You have more answers than there are questions.

[TaleofTwoDogs]

The only equalizer we have when it comes to keeping the top in-state players can be summarized in one word.....family (particularly mom). If the athlete comes from a close knit family that wants to see the guy play on a weekly basis and wants a reasonable commute to the stadium then it can be a significant influence on the kid. Unfortunately, Bama is only 80 miles further than Starkville and you also have Oxford and Hattiesburg. So, logistically, this influencing factor alone will prevent you from getting 9 of 10 players to commit to State.

[gravedigger]

Take this year for example:

Joe Burrow win the Heisman. He has some MSU ties. Goes to LSU.

Derrick Brown won the Lott Impact Trophy tonight and would have made a huge difference for us. Goes to Auburn and Dan barely tried to recruit him.

I've talked about Gardner Minchew in the past and how we refused to recruit him because "he didn't fit" Dan's system.

Missing out on players like this really hurts MSU a LOT.

The weird thing about it is we don't do it as much in basketball- Tyson Carter, Rick Perry, heck even Rick Stansbury's son.

Baseball was bad when Polk II was here but has gotten better at least as far as identifying players that are MSU fans or have ties and recruiting them. Not necessarily former players sons.

Anyway- I think this is an area where football often fails and needs to get better at. I don't really understand why we seem to be so bad at it- or why the players with ties that we miss seem to really go on to do really big things. This may be a residual effect of our low in recruiting under Dan which to me was 2016 when we missed out on those players I mentioned and AJ Brown and Scott Lashley- we can't keep missing out on local players like that. Missing on Saahdiq Charles was big too. I'll never forget the article where he basically said the reason he chose LSU was because they "called him more".

Joe has his issues and I know this will devolve into that like every other MSU football thread- but there is no question that some major recruiting misses from when Dan was here have greatly affected us the past two years as well.

Good points, Todd. However, I will add that the Heisman is more of a team award. Probably always has been. That is to say the award is given to the best player on a team that finishes at or near the top of the rankings. There have been a few exceptions, but not enough to discount my assertion. The Louisville qb comes to mind.

Fact is, if your team isnt in the hunt for the NC, there is better than a 95% chance they arent winning the heisman even if they are the best player in the country.

MSU not being in the hunt, has certainly hurt us. I'd say Johnnie Cooks deserved it in 1980. And he did make the all american 1st team.

So while we may miss out on some of those big awards for our players, it has just as much to do with the team not being in the final hunt for a conference or National championship as it does our players not being as talented as the ones who win it.

I believe our talent level is about right for the location we inhabit 90 miles from Tuscaloosa. Can we have a Heisman or other big award winner ? We did with the Thorpe award, but the answer is yes. We just wont be considered as much until we are consistently nationally relevant.

Everything is in Television marketing. We just arent that marketable of a team.

[Coursesuper]

That's true. He was an option QB. Only threw the ball a few times a game. But it's still a miss when one of the greatest QBs in the history of the NFL played QB in high school in your home state and you missed him.

Wing T. And only threw it if they had to.

[Percho]

So we have an inferiority complex, but if artificially create lofty expectations, we should get the top kids in the state 90% of the time? We've been down this road before man. No matter what our inferiority complex looks like, that will NEVER HAPPEN.

If I'm Nakobi Dean, other than some fake or manufactured sense of staying in MS, why would I choose MSU over Georgia? If I'm Turnage or Young, and a team coached by Saban with 5 national titles says come play for me, why would I go to MSU?

I love MSU. But you will never convince me that in today's college football that we should have an edge over teams like Georgia and Alabama that are winning titles, playing for titles, winning conferences and divisions, and putting tons of guys in the NFL at the rate they are.

Can we and should we get some highly rated in state guys? Absolutely. 90%??? That's just some bull crap pie in the sky talk to sound superior to everyone else. Means we should get 9 out of 10 of the Top 5 every 2 years. And that's plain ridiculous.

It is plain ridiculous because of, If I'm Nakobi Dean, other than some fake or manufactured sense of staying in MS, why would I choose MSU over Georgia? If I'm Turnage or Young, and a team coached by Saban with 5 national titles says come play for me, why would I go to MSU?

Have a little pride in where you are from.

Also scollies need to be cut to 17.5 per year with total of 70.

Football would then be fun for most universities.

[Jack Lambert]

That's true. He was an option QB. Only threw the ball a few times a game. But it's still a miss when one of the greatest QBs in the history of the NFL played QB in high school in your home state and you missed him.

Trust me I am not disagreeing with you. We have missed out on a bunch of good football players for many different reason. I am just glad we didn't miss on Dak.

[MetEdDawg]

It is plain ridiculous because of, If I'm Nakobi Dean, other than some fake or manufactured sense of staying in MS, why would I choose MSU over Georgia? If I'm Turnage or Young, and a team coached by Saban with 5 national titles says come play for me, why would I go to MSU?

Have a little pride in where you are from.

Also scollies need to be cut to 17.5 per year with total of 70.

Football would then be fun for most universities.

Again, those of you saying "have some pride" don't interact with teenagers. They are exposed to so many things national and international. They see so much more than Mississippi. Pride doesn't motivate today's kids. It just doesn't. I know this as a teacher and as a high school administrator. Saying "hey just have some pride" doesn't generate with kids.

And that's literally the only thing the group of MSU should beat Bama for 90% of in state recruits has to lean on. I live in Alabama and have for all of my life except my 4 years at MSU. The majority of this board doesn't understand the lure of Bama because you don't have to deal with it on a regular basis. It's so much bigger than people in MS understand.

[smootness]

Wait, we're wondering why we couldn't get Joe Burrow? Just because he had a grandparent play basketball at State? If anybody should be upset, it's Nebraska.

[IMissJack]

It depends on whether or not they want to ride the pine and have a chance at a championship OR have earlier playing time and go to bowls every year. Nnott and Lashley come to mind. I am not convinced though that if we got all the Mississippi top talent we would be any better off. I agree with defiantdog. A mid 4 star player in Mississippi may only be a high 3 star in Georgia.

Well I believe the opposite in TX. If a kid goes to UT or A&M as a 4 star, he would be a 3 star in MS. Many of these kids in these big high schools in TX are just overrated because they come from big schools in Dallas and Houston. A&M has not out "physicaled" anyone since Jackie left.

[maroonmania]

We don't put NFL players out at the rate Bama does and we don't put as many in the first round. That's just facts and I'm shocked anyone would say that.



Good grief, Bama gets players because they are a championship program and their fans and boosters are insanely crazy about supporting the program. They put players into the league because they recruit and sign the best players available. I would bet if you compared our recruiting profiles as a per capita of recruiting stars with Bama's, we put as many or more in the league that stick in the NFL per recruiting star as they do.

[MetEdDawg]

Good grief, Bama gets players because they are a championship program and their fans and boosters are insanely crazy about supporting the program. They put players into the league because they recruit and sign the best players available. I would bet if you compared our recruiting profiles as a per capita of recruiting stars with Bama's, we put as many or more in the league that stick in the NFL per recruiting star as they do.

Have you ever explained per capita recruiting stars rankings and their success going to the NFL to a MS kid?

Next time you do you tell me how it goes. It's obvious the majority of this board doesn't interact with teenagers and high school football players on a regular basis.

The things adults on this board value to try to use and bolster ourselves aren't the reality of things that kids want and value. And that's just abundantly obvious at this point. The majority of kids like flash. They like exposure. They like winning and they like championships. We don't touch the top tier schools in those areas.

[maroonmania]

Have you ever explained per capita recruiting stars rankings and their success going to the NFL to a MS kid?

Next time you do you tell me how it goes. It's obvious the majority of this board doesn't interact with teenagers and high school football players on a regular basis.

The things adults on this board value to try to use and bolster ourselves aren't the reality of things that kids want and value. And that's just abundantly obvious at this point. The majority of kids like flash. They like exposure. They like winning and they like championships. We don't touch the top tier schools in those areas.

I'm not trying to convince teenagers of anything, I'm just saying that Saban was pulling in Top 3 classes at Bama from pretty much his first class and well before he had a string of players he had put into the NFL from there. Like most blue bloods, Bama gets exposure, Bama wins championships, and Bama has a rabid fanbase that supports the program and goes all out in the recruiting game. That's plenty enough reason for most top rated recruits to want to go there.

[MetEdDawg]

I'm not trying to convince teenagers of anything, I'm just saying that Saban was pulling in Top 3 classes at Bama from pretty much his first class and well before he had a string of players he had put into the NFL from there. Like most blue bloods, Bama gets exposure, Bama wins championships, and Bama has a rabid fanbase that supports the program and goes all out in the recruiting game. That's plenty enough reason for most top rated recruits to want to go there.

And that's why I think we don't stand a chance as it currently stands against teams like Bama in recruiting. National media was dying for them to get back to national prominence after Shula left. They wanted Bama back and you can see why they did now. They are insanely good, they are polarizing, and they get tons of talent.

That's why I think it's unrealistic for us to seriously think we should pull even MS kids when Bama legitimately wants them. Other than state pride, there just isn't anything we can put up against Bama. That's just the reality. It sucks, but that's just what it is.

[Bdawg]

There is no doubt we are at a big disadvantage in recruiting. But I think the original OP is wanting us to try harder to find those in roads with recruits that have some kind of tie to our university and really push the envelope on those guys. Keeping the best guys instate is where we have to start. Those are the guys we have the best chance to get. Like Charles Cross and Jeff Simmons recently. To me, putting guys in the league should not be a factor in recruiting anymore. We have a pretty good track record with guys right now going to the league and being successful too. I'm feel like if you are good enough, the nfl guys will find you. The proof is look at some of these small schools that happen to have OLmen get drafted in the top 2 rounds in most years. Point is, if you are good enough, they WILL find you. Our coaches should really push our NFL successes and to make sure these kids know they have the same opportunity at our school to make the league as the big boys.
Now on the other side, if a kid want to go to school to play for championships and play on the biggest stages, then we are screwed. This kid will be tough to get unless you can convince him that he and others like him will lead you there(and try to push playing time). Still a tough sell. Also, I dont know how you convince a kid to come to MSU because he will sit the bench for his career at Bama or GA. Hard to tell a HS guy whose been a good player he won't make it at Bama could be a contributor for us. Another hard sell I guess.
Now for out of state kids, we will never/hardly ever get a top guy that the blue bloods really want. We have to really get after the guys just below the top tier that the blue bloods don't have room for to try to fill our needs that we can't get instate. Man recruiting is a b****.

[BB30]

- We should get top Mississippi kids 9 out of 10 times against those other schools. We've got to be on them earlier than them and find a way to make it happen. I'm sure many will disagree with this percentage but we've got to set lofty expectations in order to get better. I couldn't care less about realistic expectations. I only care about is improving and there is no reason we should be losing instate talent and the rate we current are after 10 bowl games.

- Out of state, 1 out of 10.

- As to Todd's question, the overall reason is our lack of institutional and booster commitment to football. We say we're committed, but we just aren't. We don't go that extra yard in everything we do to make it happen and the reason for that falls far more on the institution and boosters than it does the coaching staff. The other reason is due to the Mississippi inferiority complex that has infected out state for many many years. Many many Mississippians have a belief that they are less than people from other states. That mindset has to change.

I keep seeing you mention this inferiority complex. I don't know a single person that feels like that, not one. And I assure you none of the boosters that have enough money to play the recruiting game feel that way otherwise they wouldn't have been as successful as they have.

No multi-millionaire entrepreneur like Bryan or any other big name booster has ever felt like they weren't good enough. That is just not how success driven people feel. Now they may not care enough to play the recruiting game like others but it certainly isn't due to feeling like they are "less than" or not "as good as".

The difference is we don't fork out 7-8 million dollars to the AJ Browns, Treadwells of the world etc.

We also don't have the same number of well connected wealthy boosters that the Alabamas, Georgias, of the world have. They just simply have more people and more money to play with. It's not like you can take SEC Network money and spend it on recruits. That money has to come from boosters etc.