Mullen and Moorhead... 2009-2019

[NCMSTFAN]

Not counting bowl games, in the past 10 years (the last two obviously being Moorhead's teams) Here are our records:

2009: 5-7
2010: 8-4
2011: 6-6
2012: 8-4
2013: 6-6
2014: 10-2---- The year we reached #1, Dak at QB
2015: 8-4
2016: 5-7
2017: 8-4
2018: 8-4
2019: 6-6

Other than the 2014 special year when we reached #1 and had the best QB in program history, every other year was about the same, peeking with 8 wins in most years but the 5 and 6 year wins are there too. This thread isn't to bash Moorhead or even Mullen, but honestly what are our realistic expectations year in and year out from a logical standpoint? Yes Moorhead took over a great team with 3 NFL guys, but Mullen had that exact same team the year before and finished with the same record as Moorhead. I've had my opinions about Moorhead as well but at the end of the day, its all about wins and losses correct? Well if that is what we base this on all Mullen did was basically pass a baton Moorhead and he is carrying it now.

I know some will say we were promised that the Offense will be better under a offensive guy like Moorhead, but what else is supposed to be said about a new hire? He has obviously had success at other programs with his style so that's the pitch that was also put out to the fanbase to sell him to us as well for support. It goes that way with every coach.

The point of this thread is to REALISTICALLY ask, what are we supposed to expect? No I'm not saying we should accept to be mediocre, I'm not saying that at all. But truth is, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Florida, Georgia etc. aren't going anywhere and those teams will traditionally dominate the SEC on an annual basis. We have never been an annual football power and the likelihood of it ever happening consistently is slim.

[Randolph Dupree]

It's not about the wins and losses as much as it is the way we have looked in those games. Also, Mullen list very few of the games in which he was favored, with Joe it's a crap shoot. Bottom line is that nobody has confidence in Joe. Right or wrong, that's how it is.

[Really Clark?]

If Moorehead had maintained the scoring we had been averaging the last 4 years under Mullen, he would have won at least 4 more games the last 2 years. And he is the OC and has lead the program to offensive system dysfunction multiple games and complete lack of effort multiple times, even to start games.

[Tbonewannabe]

Not counting bowl games, in the past 10 years (the last two obviously being Moorhead's teams) Here are our records:

2009: 5-7
2010: 8-4
2011: 6-6
2012: 8-4
2013: 6-6
2014: 10-2---- The year we reached #1, Dak at QB
2015: 8-4
2016: 5-7
2017: 8-4
2018: 8-4
2019: 6-6

Other than the 2014 special year when we reached #1 and had the best QB in program history, every other year was about the same, peeking with 8 wins in most years but the 5 and 6 year wins are there too. This thread isn't to bash Moorhead or even Mullen, but honestly what are our realistic expectations year in and year out from a logical standpoint? Yes Moorhead took over a great team with 3 NFL guys, but Mullen had that exact same team the year before and finished with the same record as Moorhead. I've had my opinions about Moorhead as well but at the end of the day, its all about wins and losses correct? Well if that is what we base this on all Mullen did was basically pass a baton Moorhead and he is carrying it now.

I know some will say we were promised that the Offense will be better under a offensive guy like Moorhead, but what else is supposed to be said about a new hire? He has obviously had success at other programs with his style so that's the pitch that was also put out to the fanbase to sell him to us as well for support. It goes that way with every coach.

The point of this thread is to REALISTICALLY ask, what are we supposed to expect? No I'm not saying we should accept to be mediocre, I'm not saying that at all. But truth is, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Florida, Georgia etc. aren't going anywhere and those teams will traditionally dominate the SEC on an annual basis. We have never been an annual football power and the likelihood of it ever happening consistently is slim.

If you don't understand that Simmons, Sweat, Abram, Jenkins, Calhoun, and every other upperclassman was just better developed in 2018 vs 2017, not sure you will understand why Moorhead sucks. Here is something, Moorhead inherited an offense that was #41 in the country and lost basically nothing impactful from that team. There is a reason that EXPERIENCED teams are almost always better. Very rarely do you see something like Tua replacing Hurts unless there is a HUGE talent upgrade.

I don't know why Moorhead apologists can't understand that Moorhead just did a really shitty job adapting the offense to the talent in 2018. Moorhead seems to run one system and it sucks unless he has a talent advantage which most offenses work if you have a talent advantage anyway. Moorhead's offense is trying to have a QB take 4 seconds to decide something but the problem is that real SEC defenses don't give you that time. Therefore, his offense just doesn't work.

[NCMSTFAN]

If you don't understand that Simmons, Sweat, Abram, Jenkins, Calhoun, and every other upperclassman was just better developed in 2018 vs 2017, not sure you will understand why Moorhead sucks. Here is something, Moorhead inherited an offense that was #41 in the country and lost basically nothing impactful from that team. There is a reason that EXPERIENCED teams are almost always better. Very rarely do you see something like Tua replacing Hurts unless there is a HUGE talent upgrade.

I don't know why Moorhead apologists can't understand that Moorhead just did a really shitty job adapting the offense to the talent in 2018. Moorhead seems to run one system and it sucks unless he has a talent advantage which most offenses work if you have a talent advantage anyway. Moorhead's offense is trying to have a QB take 4 seconds to decide something but the problem is that real SEC defenses don't give you that time. Therefore, his offense just doesn't work.

So going by this you are saying that everything those guys had under Mullen, they lost when we got Moorhead??? They just forgot how to do everything?

Mind you, I'm not a huge Moorhead fan either so let me put that out there. I'm asking a legit question though, what are we genuinely supposed to expect, playing in this conference. I really don't think any coach could come in and take us to the Bama, Auburn, GA, Florida level and have us there on a consistent basis. It's just reality.

[smootness]

1) If you can't understand that returning the exact same team from the previous year in college football generally leads to a much better team, I can't help you.

2) It's one thing to look at those records and say, hmm, we seem to be about where we were. It's another entirely to realize just how good those 2018 and 2019 teams should have been. It probably should have been another 10-2/8-4 stretch. That is why people are upset. Because we realize he isn't a good coach, and 6-6 is not the floor with Moorhead. If people thought he would continue doing what Mullen did, I think most would be ok with it. It's realizing that he isn't a good coach and it is going to get worse.

[smootness]

So going by this you are saying that everything those guys had under Mullen, they lost when we got Moorhead??? They just forgot how to do everything?

Mind you, I'm not a huge Moorhead fan either so let me put that out there. I'm asking a legit question though, what are we genuinely supposed to expect, playing in this conference. I really don't think any coach could come in and take us to the Bama, Auburn, GA, Florida level and have us there on a consistent basis. It's just reality.

Huh? 3 of the guys he listed are defensive players who were 1st round picks and were part of the #1 defense in the country. They definitely didn't forget how to do anything.

The other 2 played well as well, but they were part of a Moorhead offense, so it wasn't very good.

[bigplayslay]

1) If you can't understand that returning the exact same team from the previous year in college football generally leads to a much better team, I can't help you.

2) It's one thing to look at those records and say, hmm, we seem to be about where we were. It's another entirely to realize just how good those 2018 and 2019 teams should have been. It probably should have been another 10-2/8-4 stretch. That is why people are upset. Because we realize he isn't a good coach, and 6-6 is not the floor with Moorhead. If people thought he would continue doing what Mullen did, I think most would be ok with it. It's realizing that he isn't a good coach and it is going to get worse.

Exactly. Another thing not mentioned is IF Mullen isn't constantly looking for bigger and better jobs (big if there, that was one of his downfalls here) and distracted at the end of 2017 we win even with the injury to Fitz. If TSUN doesn't break Fitz's ankle we win that game easily...

And I will die thinking that Dan would have won 10 games in 2018 with potential for more.

[Dental Dawg33]

We gave up 12 touchdowns last year, 4 of which came against Kentucky, and won 8 games. With a very good offense that lost almost no one. Mullen (whether you like him or not) would have won 10+ games with last years team. I stayed a JoMo homer last year even when the writing was on the walls after the Kentucky game. Lost me after Tenn this year and won't get me back. The lack of overall discipline and criminal display on offense against a team with half a pulse on defense is too telling. I'll gladly admit I was wrong like a lot of this board probably will if JoMo comes out next year and blows the doors off. But it ain't happening.

[confucius say]

If you don't understand that Simmons, Sweat, Abram, Jenkins, Calhoun, and every other upperclassman was just better developed in 2018 vs 2017, not sure you will understand why Moorhead sucks. Here is something, Moorhead inherited an offense that was #41 in the country and lost basically nothing impactful from that team. There is a reason that EXPERIENCED teams are almost always better. Very rarely do you see something like Tua replacing Hurts unless there is a HUGE talent upgrade.

I don't know why Moorhead apologists can't understand that Moorhead just did a really shitty job adapting the offense to the talent in 2018. Moorhead seems to run one system and it sucks unless he has a talent advantage which most offenses work if you have a talent advantage anyway. Moorhead's offense is trying to have a QB take 4 seconds to decide something but the problem is that real SEC defenses don't give you that time. Therefore, his offense just doesn't work.

I agree those guys you listed made jumps between 2017 and 2018. Especially defensive players. Several players were way better in 2018 than 2017. Credit to joes staff there.

[smootness]

I agree those guys you listed made jumps between 2017 and 2018. Especially defensive players. Several players were way better in 2018 than 2017. Credit to joes staff there.

Lulz

[Gutter Cobreh]

1) If you can't understand that returning the exact same team from the previous year in college football generally leads to a much better team, I can't help you.

2) It's one thing to look at those records and say, hmm, we seem to be about where we were. It's another entirely to realize just how good those 2018 and 2019 teams should have been. It probably should have been another 10-2/8-4 stretch. That is why people are upset. Because we realize he isn't a good coach, and 6-6 is not the floor with Moorhead. If people thought he would continue doing what Mullen did, I think most would be ok with it. It's realizing that he isn't a good coach and it is going to get worse.

Can someone give me an explanation of why Mullen was constantly pursuing other jobs at a time when the roster was as "stacked" as you say it was?

If you want to advance your career, why leave your most "stacked" team for another opportunity? Don't tell me it is because he loves UF, because if reports are true - he was going to UT regardless.

Help me understand how a coach who has been here as long as Mullen was, is willing to roll the dice on a new gig when if he stays and it pans out - he gets a supremely better?? I get his looking at 2014 because we'd reached heights we didn't know we could attain, but why after 2017 when he had a loaded roster returning?

[confucius say]

Lulz

Are you disagreeing that sweat, Simmons, abram, hoyett, green, cam, gay, Errol, Jenkins, Calhoun, etc were better players in 2018 than 2017?

Or are you just saying that the coaching staff deserves no credit for those guys improvement from nov 2017 to sept 2018?

[BB30]

Lulz

How can you argue that they weren't improved?

Let's take Joe out of the question for a second.

What are your realistic expectations for State football? Being in the west conversation in November every 3-4 years? Or are you expecting us to be competing every year? Again, leave Joe out of it. I am just curious what everybody's expectations are for the program. What do you realistically think State is capable of as a program regardless of who the coach is?

Was Mullen doing enough. Was what he was doing acceptable as a long term result? Or do you expect us to be consistently better than we were with Mullen?

Basically would you be alright with 6-8 wins every year with a better season every 3-4 years?////

[timotheus]

Ole JoMo......... I would settle for him maybe just showing a pulse and a simplified offensive plan in conference games to start. Road games, OH BOY....

[Percho]

Each NFL team is allowed to have 53 players on its roster (plus a five-player practice squad).Feb 28, 2017

As long as the top 15% of college teams can take 95% of the top talent every year, we will remain a 6 - 8 win with every once in a while a 10-11 win team.

[parabrave]

I agree those guys you listed made jumps between 2017 and 2018. Especially defensive players. Several players were way better in 2018 than 2017. Credit to joes staff there.

Name one Offensive player who got better last year. Coming into last season the Oline was expected to be one of the best in the SEC. But most of the time they looked like a chinese fire drill, with apologies to every chinese fire station. They were confused most of the time and by the time the ball was snapped they couldn't move because they were cramping up from being in their stance for 35 seconds. He tried to make Fitz into Drew Brees and when Fitz did look like Brees the receivers dropped the balls. All he had to do last year was to slowly incorporate his offense with the prior one instead of going full JOMO and we would've beat Fla nd KY and maybe LSU. But you only took your coaching pills against Aubbie and TAM in which Fitz won those games. Dam after the 1st game every defensive Coordinator figured out your snap count and just moved their defenders around till 5 secs to go, which is how we dictate our play calling. . This year he finally had "his QBs" and receivers and we see how that turned out. If we want to get better we don't need to size ourselves against OM, Arky or AC but how we do against Aubbie, TAM and upper level SEC teams.

[Tbonewannabe]

Are you disagreeing that sweat, Simmons, abram, hoyett, green, cam, gay, Errol, Jenkins, Calhoun, etc were better players in 2018 than 2017?

Or are you just saying that the coaching staff deserves no credit for those guys improvement from nov 2017 to sept 2018?

I believe most guys are better as sophomores vs their freshman year. They then are better as juniors vs their sophomore year. And so 99% of people are better as seniors vs their junior year. You really have to have shitty coaching and development to get worse. I think our on the field coaching, outside of QB, Oline, and special teams is doing a decent job of developing. Shoop is a good defensive playcaller. Saying that, several of our players took a step back this year. Errol barely looks like the same player. I don't think anyone but Williams on the Oline played up to his ability.

The big problem with 2018 and 2019 is the offensive playcalling. We seem to never get into a rhythm and our playcalling doesn't lend itself to SEC speed from DEs and LBs. Joe's system takes too long to develop plays. Just look at the UT game. We gave up 6 or 7 sacks that game. UT had 6 or 7 sacks for the year. They weren't a good QB rushing defense. They also sucked at rush defense. I believe they were around 90th in the country at the time. Kylin ran for around 13 yards. Joe SUCKS at scheming anything for his players. Just like the UK DE raping face last year and we never adjusted for it.

[Tbonewannabe]

How can you argue that they weren't improved?

Let's take Joe out of the question for a second.

What are your realistic expectations for State football? Being in the west conversation in November every 3-4 years? Or are you expecting us to be competing every year? Again, leave Joe out of it. I am just curious what everybody's expectations are for the program. What do you realistically think State is capable of as a program regardless of who the coach is?

Was Mullen doing enough. Was what he was doing acceptable as a long term result? Or do you expect us to be consistently better than we were with Mullen?

Basically would you be alright with 6-8 wins every year with a better season every 3-4 years?////

Right now, I would settle for most SEC games not being decided in the first 6-12 minutes. Right now we have anyone with a pulse putting in the 2nd string before halftime. We have Bama just using us as practice going into halftime. So I want the gap between us and the Bama/LSU level to be closer than the gap between us and Abilene Christian, oh wait, it took us almost the first quarter to score on Abilene.

[smootness]

Are you disagreeing that sweat, Simmons, abram, hoyett, green, cam, gay, Errol, Jenkins, Calhoun, etc were better players in 2018 than 2017?

Or are you just saying that the coaching staff deserves no credit for those guys improvement from nov 2017 to sept 2018?

I'm saying those guys were probably by and large better in 2018 than 2017, and our brand new coaching staff does not deserve credit for the normal improvement that comes from gaining experience as a player.

Simmons, Sweat, and Abram were projected as possible 1st rounders before their senior year, and they did as projected. If you could show me some players, any players, who improved well above expectations last year or this year, that would be something noteworthy. Instead, if we had players who performed differently than expected, it was pretty much worse across the board.

Moorhead is a bad coach.

[NCMSTFAN]

How can you argue that they weren't improved?

Let's take Joe out of the question for a second.

What are your realistic expectations for State football? Being in the west conversation in November every 3-4 years? Or are you expecting us to be competing every year? Again, leave Joe out of it. I am just curious what everybody's expectations are for the program. What do you realistically think State is capable of as a program regardless of who the coach is?

Was Mullen doing enough. Was what he was doing acceptable as a long term result? Or do you expect us to be consistently better than we were with Mullen?

Basically would you be alright with 6-8 wins every year with a better season every 3-4 years?////

Good question. This question was the basis of me starting this thread and no one has yet to really give a good answer.

[smootness]

How can you argue that they weren't improved?

Let's take Joe out of the question for a second.

What are your realistic expectations for State football? Being in the west conversation in November every 3-4 years? Or are you expecting us to be competing every year? Again, leave Joe out of it. I am just curious what everybody's expectations are for the program. What do you realistically think State is capable of as a program regardless of who the coach is?

Was Mullen doing enough. Was what he was doing acceptable as a long term result? Or do you expect us to be consistently better than we were with Mullen?

Basically would you be alright with 6-8 wins every year with a better season every 3-4 years?////

Mullen was doing enough. Some weren't satisfied with where we were as a program, and though I had issues here and there, I largely was. I would be alright with that, yes.

My point is that the fact that we have won that many games in Moorhead's 1st 2 years does not mean he is the kind of coach who will keep us where Mullen had us. He is clearly a worse coach, and we will soon start to see that in a very real way in total wins. We will regress as a program from where we were. That is why I do not want to keep Moorhead.

[NCMSTFAN]

1) If you can't understand that returning the exact same team from the previous year in college football generally leads to a much better team, I can't help you.

2) It's one thing to look at those records and say, hmm, we seem to be about where we were. It's another entirely to realize just how good those 2018 and 2019 teams should have been. It probably should have been another 10-2/8-4 stretch. That is why people are upset. Because we realize he isn't a good coach, and 6-6 is not the floor with Moorhead. If people thought he would continue doing what Mullen did, I think most would be ok with it. It's realizing that he isn't a good coach and it is going to get worse.

In College football there will always be turnover with graduations and transfers but using what you said, We regressed from 2014 to 2015 going from 10-2 to 8-4, yes we lost people on both sides of the ball like all college teams do but Dak and DeRunnya Wilson, Fred Ross and all those guys were on that 2015 team too.

[ShotgunDawg]

What are your realistic expectations for State football? Being in the west conversation in November every 3-4 years? Or are you expecting us to be competing every year? Again, leave Joe out of it. I am just curious what everybody's expectations are for the program. What do you realistically think State is capable of as a program regardless of who the coach is?


A consistent top 25 program.

- In rebuild years, we should be nipping at breaking into the top 25. Meaning, we may not be in the top 25 the entire season, but we jump in, jump out, are in the "getting votes" section & finish 6-6 to 8-5.

- In peak talent cycle years, top 10 ranking & at least competing for the West.

- Most years, top 15-25 type team that goes 7-5 but was competitive enough to go 9-3 with some breaks.

- Top 25 recruiting classes every year but showing the potential to land top 20 recruiting classes when there is a strong in-state crop.

Where has JoMo failed:

- 2018 was really bad for our talent level. 8-5 was brutal with that much talent.
- Did not capitalize on outstanding in-state crop in last year's recruiting class.
- inability to develop culture in program & identity on offense.
- inability to thus far significantly upgrade our WR unit which is critical for his offense to work. We're bringing a knife to gun fight with a coach that knows how to shoot guns & lacks knife fighting skills.
- Non-competitive games vs Auburn, Bama, & A&M. That can't happen. We have to be competitive. The way we lose matters

What JoMo has done OK at:

- If our 2019 recruiting class finishes in the top 25, that'll be on par for the type of in-state crop we have. Can't criticize him too much there.
- the 2019 record, while disappointing, considering Tutor Gate & the rebuilding of the best talent on the roster, 6-6 isn't awful. It's the way we got there that is the problem. What happened vs Auburn, Bama, & A&M is ridiculous & embarrassing

Overall though, I just see regression in the program. Hopefully he can pull of out it & start emphasizing the important things for winning in the SEC with the roster he has rather the one he wishes he had.

[Really Clark?]

In College football there will always be turnover with graduations and transfers but using what you said, We regressed from 2014 to 2015 going from 10-2 to 8-4, yes we lost people on both sides of the ball like all college teams do but Dak and DeRunnya Wilson, Fred Ross and all those guys were on that 2015 team too.

But not a back to compliment Dak running. Mullen has to adjust the offense to passing a lot more. 2014 we ran the ball 58% of the time to 46% of the time in 2015. And still won 9 games. (Why do Mullen detractors using wins and losses forget the complete historical record he has?). We won 9 games in 2015 not 8.

Anyway, he adjusted his offense to fit the personnel he had for the 2015 season. Great QB, very good WR, big issues with RB. So we go 54/46 pass to run ratio when the season before we were 42/58 pass to run

[smootness]

In College football there will always be turnover with graduations and transfers but using what you said, We regressed from 2014 to 2015 going from 10-2 to 8-4, yes we lost people on both sides of the ball like all college teams do but Dak and DeRunnya Wilson, Fred Ross and all those guys were on that 2015 team too.

So if we returned largely the same team in 2015, explain why we went from a final ranking of 11 in 2014 to unranked preseason in 2015. Because we didn't return the same team, not even close. We returned 9 starters in 2015, only 2 on the OL and 2 in the front 7 on D.

Everyone knew we would take a step back in 2015, and most projections had us around 6-6 that year.

[NCMSTFAN]

So if we returned largely the same team in 2015, explain why we went from a final ranking of 11 in 2014 to unranked preseason in 2015. Because we didn't return the same team, not even close. We returned 9 starters in 2015, only 2 on the OL and 2 in the front 7 on D.

Everyone knew we would take a step back in 2015, and most projections had us around 6-6 that year.

It happens to Bama, Florida, AU, Georgia etc Every year. They lose all of what you just said and come back just as good if not better. This is basically what I've been saying this entire post, we aren't those teams, no matter if Mullen or Moorhead is coaching, we aren't a perennial powerhouse football school. That's why my question was what should our expectations realistically be?

Shotgundog gave a pretty good response and I agree

[parabrave]

So if we returned largely the same team in 2015, explain why we went from a final ranking of 11 in 2014 to unranked preseason in 2015. Because we didn't return the same team, not even close. We returned 9 starters in 2015, only 2 on the OL and 2 in the front 7 on D.

Everyone knew we would take a step back in 2015, and most projections had us around 6-6 that year.

Plus the Off wasn't the problem it was Sirmon. Mullen also changed the offensive scheme to a more passing attack then to help show off Daks passing. And of course to show off Brandon Hollaways power running ability; God Bless that boy.

[Boston]

I at the very least expect effort in every game and I'm not seeing it.

[Coach34]

Here is what it comes down to:

JoVester was left a stacked team in 2018 and underperformed. People spout off about the D and for good reason- but people never seem to remember the 2 NFL OL guys he had in 2018- one considered the top rookie OL guy in the NFL right now- plus Williams who will be drafted in April. 3 NFL caliber guys on the OL, 2 RB's that are 1,000 yard rushers in Williams and Hill, plus the all-time leading rusher at QB in SEC history. And he dropped 30 spots in total offense from Mullen's 2017 team.

2019? A taunting penalty away from facing 5-7

2020? Nobody expects us to compete to win more than 6 or 7 games with many feeling 5-7 is a real possibility. 2019 team will lose 26 seniors and 10 starters- and that's before a couple of juniors declare. It's extremely rare for a Miss State team to lose half of its starters and improve the team's record. State has had its best seasons when its had lots of Jr's and Sr's- and those years were 2018 and 2019.

This is why people are running around kicking rocks and pounding sand.

[R2Dawg]

It's not about the wins and losses as much as it is the way we have looked in those games. Also, Mullen list very few of the games in which he was favored, with Joe it's a crap shoot. Bottom line is that nobody has confidence in Joe. Right or wrong, that's how it is.

That 5-7 first CDM team would have kicked our tail this year. The 2016 5-7 team would have been a good game due to Sirmon D.