MLB Players who got a bad rap

[Will James]

Just a random topic for the week to get away from Mullenspeth.

My guy is JD Drew. He gets bashed a lot but the guy was pretty damn good. Career .384 on-base percentage, 14% BB rate. Not a hall of famer or anything but he was a really solid player.

5th best hitter in the league with the Braves in 2004.

27th in wOBA of qualified hitters from 00-10. Pretty equal to Miguel Cabrera's 2000s

[Dawg61]

Palmeiro. He has one failed test and the world has tossed him in the trash.

[bully99]

I was gonna say Palmeiro. People who know him say that drug taint pretty much destroyed his life. He's not even the same person since that incident or scandal.

[ShotgunDawg]

John Lackey - Guy has averaged 195 innings per year for the past 10 years. Has a career 1.3 WHIP that would be lower if it wasn't for his awful 2011 season. Career 4.05 ERA that would be below 4.00 if it wasn't for a horrible 2011. Career 2.7 walks/9 and 7.7 K/9.

Overall, he is a solid 3rd starter on a championship level team that gets a bad rap because of his shitty demeanor, divorce, and horrible season that cost Francona his job.

[Dawg61]

Lackey shut down my Giants in game 7 for the Angels to win the WS. He is great in big games.

[messageboardsuperhero]

My guy doesn't necessarily have a bad rap, but Shin-Soo Choo was arguably the best leadoff hitter in baseball this past season and doesn't get nearly the recognition he deserves. Choo got on base damn near every day, and he has some serious pop in his bat for a leadoff guy.

It's a travesty that Choo didn't make the All-Star team.

[ShotgunDawg]

My guy doesn't necessarily have a bad rap, but Shin-Soo Choo was arguably the best leadoff hitter in baseball this past season and doesn't get nearly the recognition he deserves. Choo got on base damn near every day, and he has some serious pop in his bat for a leadoff guy.

It's a travesty that Choo didn't make the All-Star team.

This is true

[Will James]

My guy doesn't necessarily have a bad rap, but Shin-Soo Choo was arguably the best leadoff hitter in baseball this past season and doesn't get nearly the recognition he deserves. Choo got on base damn near every day, and he has some serious pop in his bat for a leadoff guy.

It's a travesty that Choo didn't make the All-Star team.

100% agreed. Will be more valuable when moved out of CF.

Fantasy stud.

[ShotgunDawg]

Stephen Drew - Has had a few bad offensive years, but typically hits .250-.270 with 12-15 HRs and plays plus plus defense. Has a higher career OPS than Elvis Andrus and plays equal defense; doesn't steal as many bases though.

However, since he can't get a hit to save his life right now in the World Series, everyone thinks he sucks. However, you can make a strong argument that he is better than or equal to Elvis Andrus, who is considered one of the best SS in baseball.

[Will James]

Zobrist is another under valued asset. Can play anywhere on the field and get on base with the best of em

[ShotgunDawg]

100% agreed. Will be more valuable when moved out of CF.

Fantasy stud.


WHA??? Not sure how fantasy baseball works, but, in real baseball, there isn't a player on the planet that gains value by moving out of CF unless he moves to SS.

[Dawg61]

Yea he got run off by Cleveland after he got a DUI.

[Will James]

WHA??? Not sure how fantasy baseball works, but, in real baseball, there isn't a player on the planet that gains value by moving out of CF unless he moves to SS.

Let me rephrase. His D is not good at all in CF which hurts the Reds. When they get another CF (Hamilton) and allow him to move to a corner OF spot his value will be better because he is less of a defensive liability for the team.

[ShotgunDawg]

Let me rephrase. His D is not good at all in CF which hurts the Reds. When they get another CF (Hamilton) and allow him to move to a corner OF spot his value will be better because he is less of a defensive liability for the team.

You don't understand the value of baseball players then. The Reds may be a better team if they did that, but Choo's value wouldn't be greater; it would drop. In baseball, players that play C, SS, or CF (premium positions) don't have to hit as much because defense is a higher priority. Therefore, the most expensive players in baseball are players that can hit and play a premium position, which Choo currently does.

If Choo is moved to RF or LF, where the average player hits for a higher average and more power than the average CF, Choo's value will drop because his offensive production will no longer be an outlier among his peers at that position. (More easily replaceable.)

So long as Choo's defense is passable in CF, his value is higher. Because the Reds then have the option of going to get an offensive weapon, at a cheaper price, that plays RF or LF. If Choo moves to RF or LF, they don't have that option. The Reds shouldn't move Choo unless they think he can no longer play CF, which lowers his value, or they believe that Billy Hamiton's offensive production will be greater than that of replacement player they could find to play RF or LF.

It's all about supply and demand. There are more players that can play defense than can hit, and there are even less players that can hit and play defense. Therefore, players that can hit and play defense are the rarest and thus the most valuable.

[Will James]

So long as Choo's defense is passable in CF

It's not. And CF and LF both averaged a 99 wRC+ this year in MLB. RF was at 105 wRC+. Moving him to left is moving to an equal offensive output position but will better hide his defensive flaws.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Of qualified CF Choo was the worst fielder, and it wasn't even close. He will be more valuable for the Reds in LF because he won't cost them as much defensively. In a lot of cases you are right about the CF/corner OF value but in Choo's case his D is so bad that he is more valuable in LF.

[messageboardsuperhero]

Zobrist is another under valued asset. Can play anywhere on the field and get on base with the best of em

Zobrist is the ultimate TB Ray, in a good way. I bet Maddon would clone about 20 Zobrists if he could, then maybe give a few to Billy Beane.

[ShotgunDawg]

It's not. And CF and LF both averaged a 99 wRC+ this year in MLB. RF was at 105 wRC+. Moving him to left is moving to an equal offensive output position but will better hide his defensive flaws.

Thats because LF is platooned more than any other position. Therefore the league norms will drop. A players value doesn't go up when he is moved to an easier position to play. It's logic

Plus team's save money on left fielders because there are plenty of adequate ones. The best athletes and most expensive athletes in baseball play CF, SS, P, or C. Your value drops as you move away from the center of the field.

i.e. - If Miguel Cabrera was a SS or CF, he would be paid more and his value would go up.

[Original48]

Willie McGee. He was talented..but overshadowed by his grotesque appearance.

[bully99]

Stop it. Please. You are ruining baseball for all of us old folks with all these stats. I'm sick of wars and whips and ops and all this other stat crap. Baseball has been overwhelmed by stat nerds. No offense will james ...real or imaginary.

[Will James]

Thats because LF is platooned more than any other position. Therefore the league norms will drop. A players value doesn't go up when he is moved to an easier position to play. It's logic

It does when his D is that much of a liability.

[Will James]

Stop it. Please. You are ruining baseball for all of us old folks with all these stats. I'm sick of wars and whips and ops and all this other stat crap. Baseball has been overwhelmed by stat nerds. No offense will james ...real or imaginary.

Only in baseball is more knowledge scoffed at. When you learn it, you love it and appreciate the game more.

[ShotgunDawg]

It does when his D is that much of a liability.

Negative.

If your a GM, would you pay Choo more if he could play CF or LF?

[ShotgunDawg]

This isn't a stat fight. This is a scouting and logic fight, vs a guy that doesn't understand the value of a baseball player.

Will brought a plastic spoon to this gun fight.

[Will James]

Negative.

If your a GM, would you pay Choo more if he could play CF or LF?

Gee why don't the Reds play Joey Votto at catcher or shortstop, he would have much more value there and allow them to pay for a better bat at 1B***

[preachermatt83]

I think drew's consistency was never really appreciated. The guy just got it done day in and day out.

[ShotgunDawg]

Gee why don't the Reds play Joey Votto at catcher or shortstop, he would have much more value there and allow them to pay for a better bat at 1B***

Because he can't play SS or C, but be rest assured that if he could, he would be more valuable and paid even more than he is now.

Its about supply and demand Will.

Are there more 1B or SS that can hit 30 HRs?

If we were picking a Beer league team and you could pick the SS that hit 30 HRs or the 1B that hit 30 HRs, which one would you pick?

I'll take the SS that can hit 30 HR because there is only 1 or 2 people on the planet that can do that.

Likewise, there are probably 10-20 first basemen on the planet that can do that.

Premium position players that can hit are the most valuable.

[Will James]

Because he can't play SS or C, but be rest assured that if he could, he would be more valuable and paid even more than he is now.

Choo can't play CF. This is my point. He is a horrible defensive CF.

[ShotgunDawg]

Choo can't play CF. This is my point. He is a horrible defensive CF.

Thats fine, and I'm not disagreeing with that point, but his value on the trade market or free agent market doesn't go up if he moves to RF or LF. It goes down.

You can always move a CF to LF or RF, but you can't always move a LF or RF to CF. Therefore, CF are a rarer commodity, assuming similar offensive production.

[Will James]

Thats fine, and I'm not disagreeing with that point, but his value on the trade market or free agent market doesn't go up if he moves to RF or LF. It goes down.

If you only look at offense you would be correct. Half of the game is defense though. He is more valuable and his WAR would go UP by moving to LF

[ShotgunDawg]

If you only look at offense you would be correct. Half of the game is defense though. He is more valuable and his WAR would go UP by moving to LF

Disagree, he can always to move to LF. He gets paid more money if he can stay in CF and holds more value on the free agent and trade market.

Plus the average MLB playoff team scores 800 runs. GMs try build teams that are capable of doing this. This is why Billy Bean didn't care about defense in Moneyball. So long as a player is capable of playing a premium position, you keep him there because it allows you to put a better hitter at a non-premium position.

This is why Johnny Peralta and JJ Hardy have stayed at SS for as long as they have. Are they great defensively? No, but they are adequate, and by being adequate and not having to play 3rd, the Tigers were able to put Miguel Cabrera at 3rd and Fielder at 1st.

Peralta more valuable as a SS than 3B.

[Dawg61]

Guys who gives a shit? You're ruining this thread with your titty fight

[ShotgunDawg]

Guys who gives a shit? You're ruining this thread with your titty fight

Don't tell me you would trade a SS for a manager?

[Will James]

Disagree, he can always to move to LF. He gets paid more money if he can stay in CF and holds more value on the free agent and trade market.

Plus the average MLB playoff team scores 800 runs. GMs try build teams that are capable of doing this. This is why Billy Bean didn't care about defense in Moneyball. So long as a player is capable of playing a premium position, you keep him there because it allows you to put a better hitter at a non-premium position.

You aren't getting this. Choo is not able to play that premium position. They are premium because they are important defensively. Players that can actually play those positions an hit are great. There is a reason Votto is not a shortstop. The myth of Moneyball and sabermetrics is to ignore defense. The Rays shift more than ANYBODY. Earl Weaver was "pitching, DEFENSE, and the 3 run homer".

Billy Beane cared less about 1B defense than others because its a low premium defensive spot. Ortiz is playing there in a World Series. Papi ain't playing SS.

[ShotgunDawg]

You aren't getting this. Choo is not able to play that premium position. They are premium because they are important defensively. Players that can actually play those positions an hit are great. There is a reason Votto is not a shortstop. The myth of Moneyball and sabermetrics is to ignore defense. The Rays shift more than ANYBODY. Earl Weaver was "pitching, DEFENSE, and the 3 run homer".

Billy Beane cared less about 1B defense than others because its a low premium defensive spot. Ortiz is playing there in a World Series. Papi ain't playing SS.

And LF and RF are lower defensive spots than CF.

I'm not arguing that Choo shouldn't move to a corner OF position if he can't play CF. I am just simply, without a doubt in my mind, making the statement that Choo's monetary and trade value will drop the moment he moves from CF to a corner OF position because the team he plays for can more easily replace his bat at a corner OF position than they could if he was still able to play CF.

[Bo Darville]

If Choo was having eye problems, and the manager, player, and doctor were all saying that he can't see the freaking baseball, would you play him in left or center?

[ShotgunDawg]

If Choo was having eye problems, and the manager, player, and doctor were all saying that he can't see the freaking baseball, would you play him in left or center?

He would then play Left Out

[smootness]

Look, first of all, Will was talking about his value to the Reds, not his value on the FA market. And his value to the Reds is higher if he's causing fewer runs to score because of his bad defense. And his value on the FA market would be as a corner OF anyway because teams know he isn't actually a CF.

You think that if Freddie Freeman played CF for the Braves, his value on the FA market would be higher? It wouldn't, because teams would know they're moving him to 1B. They don't just say, 'Oh you played CF for the Braves? Well, even though you had 96 errors and a dWAR of -55, we have to pay you more because that's the position you played.'

[Will James]

Look, first of all, Will was talking about his value to the Reds, not his value on the FA market. And his value to the Reds is higher if he's causing fewer runs to score because of his bad defense. And his value on the FA market would be as a corner OF anyway because teams know he isn't actually a CF.

You think that if Freddie Freeman played CF for the Braves, his value on the FA market would be higher? It wouldn't, because teams would know they're moving him to 1B. They don't just say, 'Oh you played CF for the Braves? Well, even though you had 96 errors and a dWAR of -55, we have to pay you more because that's the position you played.'


+1

[Tbonewannabe]

Play him at 2nd. Uggla agrees with this.

[messageboardsuperhero]

Here's another question regarding Choo: Was his 2013 season as a leadoff hitter as good as Ichiro's best seasons as a leadoff hitter?

I would say yes, and maybe even better. Choo had a higher OBP and more XBH this year than Ichiro ever had in any one season in his prime.

I still can't believe Choo didn't make the AS Game.

[Bubb Rubb]

The best athletes and most expensive athletes in baseball play CF, SS, P, or C.

Except for the ones that play 1B, 3B, and RF.

Choo is about to get a huge contract in free agency. And he will probably move to a corner. And he will be fine. And the other guy's point is a valid one....teams all over the league sacrifice offense for better defense up the middle. If Choo returns to Cincy, and they move him to a corner, their team will be improved because they'll play better defense up the middle but will get their offensive production from other places. Your power hitters (and big contract guys) are generally corner infielders and outfielders. Getting that from CF or SS (or even a catcher) isn't as commonplace.

[starkvegasdawg]

Let's throw some controversy into this thread. My pick is...John Rocker.

His whole career was basically ruined because of one interview he gave to SI. What I find interesting is that all he really did was talk about the type of people you see on a NYC subway and that that was not for him. What really gave me pause was that the first Saturday after all that broke I was watching SNL and during the news section of the show the "anchor" requoted Rocker's comments. He then added this: "Whether or not you like John Rocker or not, one thing is perfectly clear. He has ridden the #7 train." That drew a huge laugh from the audience. To me, he just said the exact same thing Rocker said but there was no uproar at all. Ok, bash away at me now.

[Tbonewannabe]

Ty Cobb, one of the greatest ever but people hold it against him just because he was a racist and murderer.

[Dawg61]

Ty Cobb, one of the greatest ever but people hold it against him just because he was a racist and MURDERER.

Ummm what

[Tbonewannabe]

I thought he killed a man. I was wrong, his mom killed his dad. I formerly apologize to Ty Cobb for the disparaging remark.

[Will James]

Here's another question regarding Choo: Was his 2013 season as a leadoff hitter as good as Ichiro's best seasons as a leadoff hitter?

I would say yes, and maybe even better. Choo had a higher OBP and more XBH this year than Ichiro ever had in any one season in his prime.

I still can't believe Choo didn't make the AS Game.

Choo's 2013 was better offensively than any season Ichiro has ever had.

[Eric Nies Grind Time]

Bad rap or underrated?

He never had a bad rap...but a guy who I always thought was underrated was John Olerud.